The Munich accident

[Cussion]

We all know about what may have happened to Peter in Munich 1970..

But, has anyone ever tried to track this people down again? The people from the mansion..
Has anybody went there to check that old house in the Munich woods?

[Wouter Vuijk]

And what about the tapes?????:shrug:

[SortaSavageLike]

I'm pretty sure it didn't involve the Israeli Olympic team.

[bretonbanquet]

How many people actually knew where the house was or who the people were? Peter isn't going to remember, but who else was there? Didn't Dinky Dawson go there?

The tapes must surely be lost or else they would have surfaced by now? Or does someone responsible own them?

[becca]

I was just reading in Nick Mason's big book about Pink Floyd how Syd Barrett was living with people who would spike everything with acid and what a zombie it was turning him into. Later in the book after five years of not seeing him, Syd shows up at the Abbey Road studio and nobody recognizes him. Hair gone, looking like a vagrant without friends, gut protruding... sound familiar? It's like reading about either Peter or Danny. :(

Maybe the acid they had in Europe was bad stuff because Jerry Garcia seemed to be okay more or less and did I asume as much as any musician of the '60s. His playing and mind never deteriorated that I know of.

[dino]

I was just reading in Nick Mason's big book about Pink Floyd how Syd Barrett was living with people who would spike everything with acid and what a zombie it was turning him into. Later in the book after five years of not seeing him, Syd shows up at the Abbey Road studio and nobody recognizes him. Hair gone, looking like a vagrant without friends, gut protruding... sound familiar? It's like reading about either Peter or Danny. :(

Maybe the acid they had in Europe was bad stuff because Jerry Garcia seemed to be okay more or less and did I asume as much as any musician of the '60s. His playing and mind never deteriorated that I know of.

Martin Celmins has a fairly good description of the Munich incident in his book on Peter. Apparently Dinky Dawson was there, and Jeremy Spencer seems to indicate that he was too? And they only stayed one night. It need repeating, that the live tapes of the Mac recorded after Munich features some incredible playing from Peter, as does a lot of the music he recorded during the early 70s. His health problems seems to have had more to with schizophrenia, which lsd can trigger. And the problems surely began earlier than Munich. It'd be nice to hear the tapes, though :]

[becca]

Syd Barrett did two solo albums right after the split with Pink Floyd so I suppose he could function some of the time. Perhaps like Danny later (who I read was at that house in Munich but some say he wasn't) he just didn't want to, which I can relate to as a commecial artist who has practically totally stopped doing what at one time I could never imagine not be doing.

I'm pretty much new to these stories of acid fallout but if you could add in Brian Jones... and I see photos of Peter where he is looking happy and healthy and then like the second Manalishi cover and some of the last tour photos looking really strange, like Syd, starting to stick out with scared looking eyes, and Danny had those eyes as well, Kurt Cobain eyes. Well, all I have to go by is stories people tell and photos. Jim Morrison is another who radically changed for the worse over a fairly short period too, and it's said he would go along with anyone while the rest of the band stayed back.

It would sure be nice to know more about all this.

[sharksfan2000]

Martin Celmins has a fairly good description of the Munich incident in his book on Peter. Apparently Dinky Dawson was there, and Jeremy Spencer seems to indicate that he was too? And they only stayed one night.
Actually, it seems pretty certain that only Peter and road manager Dennis Keane (or is it Kean or Keen - I've seen it spelled three ways!!) were at the Munich house that one night. Dinky Dawson accompanied Mick & Clifford Davis to retrieve Peter the next morning (and maybe Dennis too, although the accounts vary on whether or not he may have returned earlier without Peter).

It needs repeating, that the live tapes of the Mac recorded after Munich features some incredible playing from Peter, as does a lot of the music he recorded during the early 70s. His health problems seems to have had more to with schizophrenia, which lsd can trigger. And the problems surely began earlier than Munich. It'd be nice to hear the tapes, though
Couldn't agree more!

I'm hardly an expert on LSD, but it seems like it was harmless enough to most people in the '60s. I'd have to guess that, like Peter, a lot of the people who had problems afterwards may have had some underlying and in some cases entirely hidden health issues that were triggered by the acid (like Peter's schizophrenia). I don't know a lot about Syd Barrett, but perhaps that was an issue with him as well. Skip Spence of Jefferson Airplane and Moby Grape was another well-known performer who may have suffered similar problems. Remember that Dennis Keane was also at the Munich house and presumably took the same acid as Peter did, yet according to Celmins' book that had no adverse affect on him.

[mzero]

sf2k is correct, at least according to mc's book it was dennis that was at the munich house with peter.



I'm hardly an expert on LSD, but it seems like it was harmless enough to most people in the '60s. I'd have to guess that, like Peter, a lot of the people who had problems afterwards may have had some underlying and in some cases entirely hidden health issues that were triggered by the acid (like Peter's schizophrenia). I don't know a lot about Syd Barrett, but perhaps that was an issue with him as well. Skip Spence of Jefferson Airplane and Moby Grape was another well-known performer who may have suffered similar problems. Remember that Dennis Keane was also at the Munich house and presumably took the same acid as Peter did, yet according to Celmins' book that had no adverse affect on him.

i do know a fair bit about syd barrett. his case is similar in that he was under tremendous pressure to produce hit records and lead the band. was different in that, by all accounts that i've read, he took much more acid than pete (both intentionally and spiked) and very large quantities other drugs (mandrax). some believe this led to serious brain damage as well as induced mental illness. as i recall both roger waters and david gilmour (who both knew him as teenagers) believe that there were possibly underlying latent mental issues that the drug use brought on. barrett has well recovered to that the degree that he has lived alone and maintained a house for many years now. i believe that barrett does not have schizophrenia although he prefers not to interact with people other than relatives and tends to depression. on the otherhand, again according to what i've read, he paints and gardens,does his own shopping and is on good terms with his neighbors.

skip spence was schizophrenic which was brought on by drug use. the onset of his illness was sudden, coincided with drug use and associating with people with dubious intentions (a self-proclaimed witch). he tried to attack some of his bandmates with a fire-axe and was institutionalized. he never fully recovered but did cut one album immediately after he was released. he, unlike pete, had no family to look after him and no royalties to subsist on. subsequently he spent the next 30 years drifting, much of the time from the mid seventies to early 90's as a transient. still he was active musically off in san jose, santa cruz, and in the santa cruz mtns up around ben lomand. though virtually no material was formally recorded or was released. some of the original doobie brothers were associates of skip's in the early 1970's. and up until the few months before he died skip was making music, also unreleased. according to what i've read, spence was a very unusual person even before the drug use - could pick up new instruments with no training, could compose songs and arrangements in his head etc.

zero

[monkeydevil]

Thanks Zero for this interesting information on Syd and Skip!

I didn´t know that skip Spence was so ill as you describe.

Here are a couple of pictures I found recently of SYD:

Syd in 1969
http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/upload/b/ba/Barrett1.jpg

Syd in 1983
http://lundissimo.info/imgs/barrett/syd/SydGardener-83.jpg

Syd in 1989
http://lundissimo.info/imgs/barrett/syd/SydWalk-89.jpg

Syd in 2002
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/leahcim3360/bikebarrett_2002.jpg

Syd in 2005
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/leahcim3360/sydbarrett2005.jpg

[becca]

Thanks for the insights!

The photo of Syd in Nick Mason's book from 1975 is kind of startling because he looks a lot like that 2002 photo! Having an aversion to the music 'industry' as Peter and Syd had is certainly not only sane but generally healthy. Why anybody wanted to do a lot of acid I have no idea as a little would go a long long way, but like vitamins some people think if a little is good a lot is better and so get vitamin C poisoning or liver damage.

Peter's playing and singing on The Splinter Group recordings are better if anything to me than earlier stuff, but the songwriting certainly seems to have gone or been very dramatically lessened.

[dino]

sf2k is correct, at least according to mc's book it was dennis that was at the munich house with peter.



i do know a fair bit about syd barrett. his case is similar in that he was under tremendous pressure to produce hit records and lead the band. was different in that, by all accounts that i've read, he took much more acid than pete (both intentionally and spiked) and very large quantities other drugs (mandrax). some believe this led to serious brain damage as well as induced mental illness. as i recall both roger waters and david gilmour (who both knew him as teenagers) believe that there were possibly underlying latent mental issues that the drug use brought on. barrett has well recovered to that the degree that he has lived alone and maintained a house for many years now. i believe that barrett does not have schizophrenia although he prefers not to interact with people other than relatives and tends to depression. on the otherhand, again according to what i've read, he paints and gardens,does his own shopping and is on good terms with his neighbors.

skip spence was schizophrenic which was brought on by drug use. the onset of his illness was sudden, coincided with drug use and associating with people with dubious intentions (a self-proclaimed witch). he tried to attack some of his bandmates with a fire-axe and was institutionalized. he never fully recovered but did cut one album immediately after he was released. he, unlike pete, had no family to look after him and no royalties to subsist on. subsequently he spent the next 30 years drifting, much of the time from the mid seventies to early 90's as a transient. still he was active musically off in san jose, santa cruz, and in the santa cruz mtns up around ben lomand. though virtually no material was formally recorded or was released. some of the original doobie brothers were associates of skip's in the early 1970's. and up until the few months before he died skip was making music, also unreleased. according to what i've read, spence was a very unusual person even before the drug use - could pick up new instruments with no training, could compose songs and arrangements in his head etc.

zero

yes, sorry, it was dennis at the house. and as you say, he did the same lsd and didn't suffer any ill effects. Some people should never take lsd, while others apparently can handle it. But the parallell with syd barret is interesting, whereas he could be termed an "acid casualty", peter is not, at least not in the same sense.
The skip spence album is called "oar", i believe. Hailed as a classic by some critics, has anyone haerd it?

[mzero]

yes, sorry, it was dennis at the house. and as you say, he did the same lsd and didn't suffer any ill effects. Some people should never take lsd, while others apparently can handle it. But the parallell with syd barret is interesting, whereas he could be termed an "acid casualty", peter is not, at least not in the same sense.
The skip spence album is called "oar", i believe. Hailed as a classic by some critics, has anyone haerd it?

d- i have 'oar'. in some ways it is very similar to the first barrett solo lp, 'the madcap laughs' in that it is strange, spare, out of its time, and not produced. if anything it is spacier that 'ml'. but it is different in that barrett's was recorded over a serious of sessions of more than a year with different producers and pieced together with little input from syd. skip's was done entirely by himself. he played all the instruments, produced and it was recorded in a matter of days. there is nothing like it. but , knowing what was going on when it was recorded, immediately after, and some of what eventually happened to skip, i have trouble listening to it all the way through without getting completely wiped out.

there is an interesting skip tribute (that i do not have) where the whole oar album is remade by fans (e.g., robert plant (a huge moby grape and champion of skip), tom waits, beck) who you'd never guess were influenced by someone ultimately so obscure and lost.

zero

[eclipse]

I am somewhat new to the "older Mac" stories and history...
Can someone give me a little "Readers Digest" version of "The Munich Accident". I gather, from what I read that Peter was at a mansion in Munich- took lsd and ...what...flipped out?
Was it supposed to be the first time that he encountered the drug...or his last?

Thanks for any background

[dino]

I am somewhat new to the "older Mac" stories and history...
Can someone give me a little "Readers Digest" version of "The Munich Accident". I gather, from what I read that Peter was at a mansion in Munich- took lsd and ...what...flipped out?
Was it supposed to be the first time that he encountered the drug...or his last?

Thanks for any background

Ok, I'll jump on it...

The "accident" took place in Munich, Germany in March, 1970, probably after the concert on March 22. However , M. Celmins claims that the band were in Munich for 3 days, which doesn't agree with the tour itinerary found on the FM legacy website (March 23 they played in Nurnberg). The men who were there remembers it like this:

Accoring to road manager Dennis Keen:
After the gig Peter was invited to a party by a beautiful girl, so he and road manager Dennis Keen went. They got to a big house (a "hippie" commune) where a party was underway, and drank wine that was spiked with lsd (both of them).

Keen only has one memory of Peter during their 24-hour stay, of him jamming some weird music in the basement. Keen found the atmosphere strange and wanted to leave after some 10 hours, and called Clifford Davis to come and get them.

Peter green:
Peter says they were met at the airport in Munich by a boy and a girl, who came to the hotel after the show and invited them to the "commune". He and dennis went there, he played some exciting music and was put to bed by a girl, tripping and tired. The concert next day he felt "marvelous, fresh and not grubby". He does recall the acid trip as being pretty wild...but he didn't "flip out" afterwards or anything.

It's hard to say what impact the famous acid trip had. Green obviously had thought of leaving the band before Munich. McVie and Fleetwood's reaction the whole Munich thing (shock, anger), at a guess, was maybe coloured by peter leaving the group shortly afterwards. On the other hand, the commune people may have tried to drum something into Peter; rock music was a target for anarchistic youth back then, as was becoming more commercial (higher prices on concert tickets etc.). It doesn't ring true however that that one trip destroyed Peter, he had done acid several times before and did afterwards too, I gather.

[sharksfan2000]

Very nice summary, Dino! And your last paragraph very closely mirrors my view of the impact of the Munich events.

One thing to add - the "Munich trip" has long been blown out of proportion to become one of the great rock'n'roll myths. It's often written that Peter disappeared for a three-day acid binge and was never the same afterwards. As noted above, Peter went to the house in Munich only that one night, and in the company of one of the band's crew. Of course I wasn't there so I can only speculate on what may have happened at the house and if there really was any dramatic change in Peter's personality or behavior afterwards. From whhat I've read, he announced his decision to leave the band the following day, and as Dino mentions, that surely had an effect on how the other band members viewed the events.

Jeremy - if you're reading this thread, it would be great to have your input on what really happened :)

[eclipse]

Thanks for the background-It makes more sense to me now :cool:
Have I mentioned that I love this place...

So many people with such a broad musical background/knowledge/history!!
Now ...if someone could just explain why gay men love Stevie Nicks so much....I would have all the information I need for a day (smile)

Thanks again
~~eclipse~~

[jeremy spencer]

Very nice summary, Dino! And your last paragraph very closely mirrors my view of the impact of the Munich events.

One thing to add - the "Munich trip" has long been blown out of proportion to become one of the great rock'n'roll myths. It's often written that Peter disappeared for a three-day acid binge and was never the same afterwards. As noted above, Peter went to the house in Munich only that one night, and in the company of one of the band's crew. Of course I wasn't there so I can only speculate on what may have happened at the house and if there really was any dramatic change in Peter's personality or behavior afterwards. From whhat I've read, he announced his decision to leave the band the following day, and as Dino mentions, that surely had an effect on how the other band members viewed the events.

Jeremy - if you're reading this thread, it would be great to have your input on what really happened :)




The speculation has been amusing but I was thinking for awhile now, I'll only post a reply if someone asks!! So here you go, Sharksfan.
It's true that we, or more accurately, Pete was met at Munich airport by a very beautiful girl and a strange guy in a black cape. Their focus was definitely Pete for some reason. The rest of us didn't get it, but we discussed the weird vibes. We were invited to their mansion in the Munich forest that night. Pete was already jamming down in the basement, wa wah stuff with congas and stuff when I arrived with Mick. Dennis Keene met us in the driveway, ashen faced and freaking out over the bad vibes and how weird Pete was going. I don't think Dennis was stoned, he just wanted to get out. I tried calming him down with a scripture. I wasn't stoned, maybe I toked some weed that night, but Mick and I stayed and cooked some eggs in the kitchen cos we were famished!
Anyway the house (more like a mansion) was a rich hippy crash pad. And it was spooky. There was some weird stuff going on in the different rooms. Hocus pocus that I don't want to get into here otherwise it'll open up a can of worms.
Mick and I ended up upstairs talking to a girl who was severely affected by the whole thing. It definitely wasn't positive. And if you believe in bad vibes, people wise and music wise, this was it. Mick and I were oh so glad to be out of there. I don't believe we can just blame the acid, it's a convenient scapegoat, but 'beautiful minds' have been around long before acid. (Maybe I should get ready to duck!!)

[sharksfan2000]

Thanks, Jeremy! :)

Like many people here, I've read several differing versions of what happened, and it's fantastic to hear a first-hand account of things straight from you. It sure sounds like it must have been a scary experience. It's sad that Peter was in a state of mind where it sounds like he was easy prey for people trying to take advantage of him.

[fanmael]

Thank you for the response jeremy. Much appreciated.

How i would have loved to be a fly on the wall in that hippie house basement.

I agree with Jeremy that we cannot lay the blame soley on the acid as other well knows factors were in place such as Peter's change in musical direction.

One only needs to listen to The 'End of the Game' and 'Kiln House' to see that the contrast between the two albums are like night and day.

[wondergirl9847]

I have nothing to add about the Munich thing as I don't really know much about it, but it's so great to see Jeremy posting here! Hi Jeremy! :D

Also, welcome to the Ledge, fanmael. :)

[becca]

I can imagine that the occult people of the time would be well aware of Black Magic Woman and thus it makes sense they would zero in on the writer of it, plus celebrity draws those either wanting to use you or simply effect you in some way to make themselves feel important... often because they're non-creative themselves, like the company executives who try to force changes.

I don't see Peter leaving the group as unusual at all, just his own wrecklessness, unhappiness or aimlessness seems to have begun following the incident. Hate to bring another music icon into this, but it seemed like Jim Morrison's appearance changed rapidly at some point too for example, with the beard, and his eyes being more unfocused, and a generally zombified demeanor... it was like another person, or like the person who was there before had kind of gone to bed and stayed there. That seems how people decribe Peter who was really such a handsome guy and five years later was looking twenty years older. I'm gonna have to find a bit of time to scan this Syd Barret photo of 1975 where his old friends did not recognize him at all and in studio 3 of abbey road yet!

[dino]

Thanks, Jeremy! :)

Like many people here, I've read several differing versions of what happened, and it's fantastic to hear a first-hand account of things straight from you. It sure sounds like it must have been a scary experience. It's sad that Peter was in a state of mind where it sounds like he was easy prey for people trying to take advantage of him.

Yes, thanks Jeremy :blob1: !
Intriguing, straight from the horse's mouth. Just bought the complete Elmore James Fire/Enjoy recordings, amazing...

[becca]

http://www.islandnet.com/~rebejan/syd75.jpg <--- Syd in 1975

I suppose it plays into a music lover's fantasy to imagine one dramatic crossroads moment, and that maybe things could have turned out so much differently but for that.

It is a major shock to see somebody dramatically older in a time logically too short to have been so profound. Usually it only happens because of serious illness. Little wonder people would want to supply some explaination for what is astonishing their eyes.

[eclipse]

Thanks Jeremy-Fantastic to hear from you.
I undrstand the whole "bad vibes", you described... feelings, atmospheres, energies, whatever you want to call them-in a room/house wherever the negative energies can gather. And it does feel fantastic to leave them behind you...whether you are straight or high.

I have been blessed with an acute 6th sense, so I "feel" many things that other people are just not feeling, and don't understand.
Thanks for your input...and I am glad you left that mansion that night:xoxo:

[jeremy spencer]

Thanks Jeremy-Fantastic to hear from you.
I undrstand the whole "bad vibes", you described... feelings, atmospheres, energies, whatever you want to call them-in a room/house wherever the negative energies can gather. And it does feel fantastic to leave them behind you...whether you are straight or high.

I have been blessed with an acute 6th sense, so I "feel" many things that other people are just not feeling, and don't understand.
Thanks for your input...and I am glad you left that mansion that night:xoxo:

It's sensitive stuff, a gift of God. But it's a responsibility too.xx

[GJK]

Happy Birthday, Mr. Spencer, from a long-time fan from The Netherlands!

GJK

[jeremy spencer]

Happy Birthday, Mr. Spencer, from a long-time fan from The Netherlands!

GJK
thank you, GJK.

[robm]

...hmmm...bad vibes...a mansion in the woods...lsd...staying indoors in a dark place like an old mansion would have given off bad vibes to many people who experienced strong clean lsd...usually better to play/listen to music...or experience outdoor nature...if the lsd is strong...from my experience as a trip guide way back in my college youth days...
Sounds like Peter just experienced some people who were "very" experimental, and had a good time Jamming...he's already Jammed with the Grateful Dead and Allman Brothers a month or so earlier...maybe he wanted to stretch-out those musical abilities? Thanks for the info Mr. Spencer...I look forward to trying to obtain your new album here in Mumbai, India...Blind Pig is an excellent Blues lable...maybe they'll send this way when I order it...I have the Flee releases, and I enjoyed them...so looking forward to hearing the "new" stuff...good health

[jeremy spencer]

...hmmm...bad vibes...a mansion in the woods...lsd...staying indoors in a dark place like an old mansion would have given off bad vibes to many people who experienced strong clean lsd...usually better to play/listen to music...or experience outdoor nature...if the lsd is strong...from my experience as a trip guide way back in my college youth days...
Sounds like Peter just experienced some people who were "very" experimental, and had a good time Jamming...he's already Jammed with the Grateful Dead and Allman Brothers a month or so earlier...maybe he wanted to stretch-out those musical abilities? Thanks for the info Mr. Spencer...I look forward to trying to obtain your new album here in Mumbai, India...Blind Pig is an excellent Blues lable...maybe they'll send this way when I order it...I have the Flee releases, and I enjoyed them...so looking forward to hearing the "new" stuff...good health
Thank you, robm. 'Precious Little' is also currently available direct from Bluestown, Norway. They give prompt and reliable service. It would be nice if it could be released in India, too.

[robm]

Thank you, robm. 'Precious Little' is also currently available direct from Bluestown, Norway. They give prompt and reliable service. It would be nice if it could be released in India, too.

Thanks...I'll search them out!:)

[sharksfan2000]

Robm - here's link to the Bluestown website:
http://www.bluestownrecords.com/index_e.htm
Click on the "Catalog" link to order. As Jeremy wrote, the service was excellent.

[robm]

Robm - here's link to the Bluestown website:
http://www.bluestownrecords.com/index_e.htm
Click on the "Catalog" link to order. As Jeremy wrote, the service was excellent.

Thanks...I sent them an order request yesterday...waiting to hear from them as they will e-mail me an order # so I can paypal...then they will send...look forward to listening to the new stuff.

[sharksfan2000]

i do know a fair bit about syd barrett. his case is similar in that he was under tremendous pressure to produce hit records and lead the band. was different in that, by all accounts that i've read, he took much more acid than pete (both intentionally and spiked) and very large quantities other drugs (mandrax). some believe this led to serious brain damage as well as induced mental illness. as i recall both roger waters and david gilmour (who both knew him as teenagers) believe that there were possibly underlying latent mental issues that the drug use brought on. barrett has well recovered to that the degree that he has lived alone and maintained a house for many years now. i believe that barrett does not have schizophrenia although he prefers not to interact with people other than relatives and tends to depression. on the otherhand, again according to what i've read, he paints and gardens,does his own shopping and is on good terms with his neighbors.
Some sad news to report about Syd Barrett - news reports today say that he passed away a couple of days ago:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060711/ap_on_en_mu/obit_barrett

[dansven]

Some sad news to report about Syd Barrett - news reports today say that he passed away a couple of days ago:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060711/ap_on_en_mu/obit_barrett


So terribly sad......:(

[Popmuseum]

Hello there,

"Fleetwood Mac"- and "Peter Green"-fans should know that Rainer Langhans, famous former member of well known German communes, writes in an article ("Autobiography (http://www.debrebant.de/pdf/auto.pdf)"/"Car-Biography") that he and his former girl-friend Uschi Obermaier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier) met Peter Green in Munich, where they invited him to their (then well known) "High-Fish-Commune" (High-Fish = "stoned fish / shark"-commune): http://www.debrebant.de/pdf/auto.pdf

It seems that Langhans and Obermaier were not really interested in Peter Green. - They just wanted to get in contact with Mick Taylor.

Langhans and Obermaier wished to organize a "Bavarian Woodstock". They wanted Jimi Hendrix and "The Rolling Stones" to be the leading stars of their Bavarian open air festival. - They needed the "Green God" just to get in contact with "The Rolling Stones" via Mick Taylor.

Read more about it, in the "Rolling Stone"-Forum (in German):
Peter Greens Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970 (http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009): http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009

By the way: Rainer Langhans' girl-friend Christa Ritter tells she's gonna make a movie about Peter Green's Munich accident: Peter Green’s (Ex-Fleetwood Mac) Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970 (http://zia.pentabarf.org/programm/speakers/29.de.html):
http://zia.pentabarf.org/programm/speakers/29.de.html

Read more about Uschi Obermaier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier

Last, not least: Please excuse my "English". I'm used to listen and read (in) English, but I'm not used to write in English. Sorry.

Regards,
Popmuseum

[Wouter Vuijk]

Hello there,

"Fleetwood Mac"- and "Peter Green"-fans should know that Rainer Langhans, famous former member of well known German communes, writes in an article ("Autobiography (http://www.debrebant.de/pdf/auto.pdf)"/"Car-Biography") that he and his former girl-friend Uschi Obermaier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier) met Peter Green in Munich, where they invited him to their (then well known) "High-Fish-Commune" (High-Fish = "stoned fish / shark"-commune): http://www.debrebant.de/pdf/auto.pdf

It seems that Langhans and Obermaier were not really interested in Peter Green. - They just wanted to get in contact with Mick Taylor.

Langhans and Obermaier wished to organize a "Bavarian Woodstock". They wanted Jimi Hendrix and "The Rolling Stones" to be the leading stars of their Bavarian open air festival. - They needed the "Green God" just to get in contact with "The Rolling Stones" via Mick Taylor.

Read more about it, in the "Rolling Stone"-Forum (in German):
Peter Greens Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970 (http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009): http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009

By the way: Rainer Langhans' girl-friend Christa Ritter tells she's gonna make a movie about Peter Green's Munich accident: Peter Green’s (Ex-Fleetwood Mac) Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970 (http://zia.pentabarf.org/programm/speakers/29.de.html):
http://zia.pentabarf.org/programm/speakers/29.de.html

Read more about Uschi Obermaier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uschi_Obermaier

Last, not least: Please excuse my "English". I'm used to listen and read (in) English, but I'm not used to write in English. Sorry.

Regards,
Popmuseum

It would be nice if Christa would also be able to lay a hand on the recordings made, and get them published. :]

And, like I mentioned elsewhere: do not apologise for your "poor" English. At least you get further than most native English speaking get with German or whatever other language.:lol:

[sharksfan2000]

At least you get further than most native English speaking get with German or whatever other language.:lol:
I'm sure you're correct, Wouter, although I could understand "wir haben getrippt und gejammt" ;) Pretty cool info from Popmuseum - thanks!

[Popmuseum]

Habedieehre,

herzlichen Dank für die freundliche Begrüßung (hier). Schön!

Wenn es etwas Neues über München zu berichten gibt, werde ich wieder in Englisch posten.

Bis dahin,
g'schamster Diener,
Popmuseum

[Karl-Heinz]

Habedieehre,

herzlichen Dank für die freundliche Begrüßung (hier). Schön!

Wenn es etwas Neues über München zu berichten gibt, werde ich wieder in Englisch posten.

Bis dahin,
g'schamster Diener,
Popmuseum

P.S.: Mit diesem Posting habe ich Wouter Vuijks Wunsch nach einem Wienerischen Beitrag erfüllt und hoffe, dass er das Posting ins Angelsächsische überführt. Danke!

Bist a Weana Strizzi :sorry: oder bist a Fiaker, ein Herr Graf oder ein Herr Doktor. :-) Servus

[Popmuseum]

„… and believe me, my dear Miss Beach,
to be,
your most obedient servant,
und indessen erlaube ich mir an Euch beide die
Versicherung meiner Hochachtung auszudrücken“
(James Joyce to Adrienne Monnier and Sylvia Beach, 3. September 1928).

[Wouter Vuijk]

Bist a Weana Strizzi :sorry: oder bist a Fiaker, ein Herr Graf oder ein Herr Doktor. :-) Servus

Graf Bobby?????:sorry:

[Karl-Heinz]

Ich bitte dann um weitere weanerische Beiträge!

Oder eine Ãœbersetzung

http://www.wienerlieder.at/index.asp?flangu=DE-DE-WI&n1=4890&n2=4891&m=0&ObjID=6882

Könnte Langhans dabei gewesen sein?

[Popmuseum]

Two weeks ago Rainer Langhans has published his autobiography. He mentions (http://forum.rollingstone.de/showpost.php?p=1439571&postcount=219) again Peter Green's visit at the HighFish / Hai-Fisch / Stoned-Shark-commune in March 1970.

Rainer Langhans: "Ich bin's - Die ersten 68 Jahre. Die Autobiographie" (http://www.amazon.de/Ich-bins-ersten-Jahre-Autobiographie/dp/3936738343/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203185012&sr=1-7)
256 pages & 16 pages photographs.
19,90 Euro
ISBN: 978-3-936738-34-6
Published: February 2008

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z7cSmOlVL._AA240_.jpg

[Popmuseum]

Pages 114-116 of Langhans' Autobiography tell how Langhans and Obermaier have invited Greenie to their commune (Castle Kronwinkl near Landshut), how they spent some time together, that the communards met Greenie two weeks later twice in London and that Greenie had helped the communards to get in contact with the Rolling Stones.

Langhans tells that the members of Fleetwood Mac believe that the communards are guilty of Greenies mental breakdown.

(Don't forget to excuse my English. But I'm only used to read English but not to write in English. This time i made an exception, because i thought you're interested to read what is written in Langhans brandnew autobiography).

Popmuseum

[Karl-Heinz]

Pages 114-116 of Langhans' Autobiography tell how Langhans and Obermaier have invited Greenie to their commune (Castle Kronwinkl near Landshut), how they spent some time together, that the communards met Greenie two weeks later twice in London and that Greenie had helped the communards to get in contact with the Rolling Stones.

Langhans tells that the members of Fleetwood Mac believe that the communards are guilty of Greenies mental breakdown.

(Don't forget to excuse my English. But I'm only used to read English but not to write in English. This time i made an exception, because i thought you're interested to read what is written in Langhans brandnew autobiography).

Popmuseum

Seems to be this one

http://www.meinestadt.de/eching-niederbayern/tourismus/pix?id=28607

I excuse your English, at leasr I'll do my very best to do so :D



Map


http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&q=kronwinkl&sll=48.086451,11.114559&sspn=0.045295,0.124798&ie=UTF8&ll=48.490629,12.036906&spn=0.022469,0.086002&t=h&z=14

[Popmuseum]

"Schloss Kronwinkl" today:

Sonja Schön: Reise ins Mittelalter (http://www.welt.de/print-wams/article602798/Reise_ins_Mittelalter.html). Seit fast 1000 Jahren trotzt Schloss Kronwinkl der Grafen von Preysing den Stürmen der Zeit.

[zoork_1]

"Pages 114-116 of Langhans' Autobiography ...[...]"

Thanks Popmuseum, I read you loud and clear....:-)

/z

[Ghost_Tracker]

I believe John McVie has expressed a desire to find the people who did this to Peter. Perhaps to ask them why they did it. . . . .What exactly was in the stuff. . . .And to express to them personally his disappointment and anger at their behavior. :nod:

[Popmuseum]

I believe John McVie has expressed a desire to find the people who did this to Peter. Perhaps to ask them why they did it. . . . .What exactly was in the stuff. . . .And to express to them personally his disappointment and anger at their behavior. :nod:

"The man had so much talent that was lost because of those people and i despise them for that. so if they ever see this: "don't ever cross my path". i'm very serious (about this)."

John McVie (Fleetwood Mac - The Mick Fleetwood Story. DVD).

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KA13DB5PL._AA240_.jpg

[Mainer]

Your English is perfect, just translate High-Fish-Commune by Steckerlfisch-WG!

[Popmuseum]

Your English is perfect, just translate High-Fish-Commune by Steckerlfisch-WG!

:laugh: :)

[Ms Moose]

And what about the tapes?????:shrug:

I think Martin Celmins mentions in his book - and Peter Green himself - certainly - mentions in The Man of The World DVD, that he left the "Munich Tape(s)" in Los Angeles with his ex-wife Jane Samuels.
Maybe she could be kindly asked to return them? :angel:

I don't know how to "quote" from more than one thread - but thanks to all our german and austrian friends and Fellow Ledgies for all their knowledge and information - and the time they take to translate!:thumbsup:

Ms Moose

[Popmuseum]

I think Martin Celmins mentions in his book - and Peter Green himself - certainly - mentions in The Man of The World DVD, that he left the "Munich Tape(s)" in Los Angeles with his ex-wife Jane Samuels.
Maybe she could be kindly asked to return them? :angel:

I don't know how to "quote" from more than one thread - but thanks to all our german and austrian friends and Fellow Ledgies for all their knowledge and information - and the time they take to translate! :thumbsup: Ms Moose

Maybe someone who's able to write her a nice e-mail should ask her (kindly) :nod: (In English, not German). Thanks.

[slipkid]

I notice the walking on eggshells approach when concerning Peter's ex-wife. From reading the 1999 Penguin Q&A with PG, up to that time he had never seen his daughter? Does anyone know if this has changed?

Jeremy Spencer mentioned an incident involving Jane Samuels while pregnant in one of his propogandist CoG fliers. I don't have the Celmins biography so I'm in the dark.

[jeremy spencer]

... propagandist. (Spellcheck).


I notice the walking on eggshells approach when concerning Peter's ex-wife. From reading the 1999 Penguin Q&A with PG, up to that time he had never seen his daughter? Does anyone know if this has changed?

Jeremy Spencer mentioned an incident involving Jane Samuels while pregnant in one of his propogandist CoG fliers. I don't have the Celmins biography so I'm in the dark.

[doodyhead]

Dear Jeremy,

I don't know what the propaganda thing is all about, but I was always curious about what happened to you, danny and peter. I have much respect for what the three of you managed to put out in such a few short years. We are all curious about what you went through as well as what Peter went through. Maybe someday you can tell us of your travels as well as tour meetings over time with your other former bandmates. I know there are quite a few interested in Jane and Rosebud. I apologize if this seems like such a maudlin interest, but even those among us who are blues enthusiasts and devotees, there is a little bit of the fanatic in all us fans.

A fan and avid listener of your music,

vinnie c




... propagandist. (Spellcheck).

[slipkid]

... propagandist. (Spellcheck).

I knew that would force you to make a comment. :laugh:

Seriously, I should know better. :sorry: At least the thread isn't dead anymore.

[snoot]

Great read, with input from JS himself and our German friends. Thanks to all who contributed.

[jeremy spencer]

I knew that would force you to make a comment. :laugh:

Seriously, I should know better. :sorry: At least the thread isn't dead anymore.


No offence taken!
Anyway, that was certainly a nightmare experience for me, and I can't merely make acid the scapegoat! I hadn't taken any, yet that Munich 'incident' was still a night spent in hell.

[jeremy spencer]

Dear Jeremy,

I don't know what the propaganda thing is all about, but I was always curious about what happened to you, danny and peter. I have much respect for what the three of you managed to put out in such a few short years. We are all curious about what you went through as well as what Peter went through. Maybe someday you can tell us of your travels as well as tour meetings over time with your other former bandmates. I know there are quite a few interested in Jane and Rosebud. I apologize if this seems like such a maudlin interest, but even those among us who are blues enthusiasts and devotees, there is a little bit of the fanatic in all us fans.

A fan and avid listener of your music,

vinnie c

...but I did get to see Jane in a clothing store in LA in 1978. I wanted to walk up to her to extend my sympathies after the trauma, but something ... (pride?) stopped me. I regret it to this day.
I remember her pouring out her heart to Mick on the phone (the talkback was on), and it seemed she still loved Pete regardless.
Anyway, I'm so glad she got out of that dangerous relationship, though. She had become a Jewish Christian, so there must have been some dark resistance at work.

[doodyhead]

...but I did get to see Jane in a clothing store in LA in 1978. I wanted to walk up to her to extend my sympathies after the trauma, but something ... (pride?) stopped me. I regret it to this day.
I remember her pouring out her heart to Mick on the phone (the talkback was on), and it seemed she still loved Pete regardless.
Anyway, I'm so glad she got out of that dangerous relationship, though. She had become a Jewish Christian, so there must have been some dark resistance at work.

Dear Jeremy,

Have you considered writing a book? It would seem that you have many stories to tell, from your youth, to the FM days, to your world travels and experiences in India and the "sub continent" (wherever that is). I think it would be a fascinating insightful read.

P.S. Are you considering coming back to play in the US? (a new York area fan is hopeful)

cheers,

vinnie c

[wetcamelfood]

Dear Jeremy, Are you considering coming back to play in the US? (a new York area fan is hopeful)

A Boston date would be great too! :)

John

[Popmuseum]

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans

Hallo Rainer,
wieso hast Du Eure Münchner Begegnung mit Peter Green erst so spät bekannt gemacht, nachdem die Bluesszene viele Jahrzehnte lang gerätselt hat, wer denn das Münchner Paar war, das Greenie 1970 in eine Kommune abgeschleppt hat, die er als ein völlig anderer verlassen habe.

Viele Blueser interessiert, ob Du noch eine Kopie von Greenies Auftritt in der Highfish-Kommune hast? Denn er soll seine Kopie seiner Ex-Frau geschenkt haben, weshalb niemand weiss, wo der Mitschnitt heute ist.

Im Rolling Stone-Forum wurde vor langer Zeit besonders eifrig über Peter Greens Trauma-Nacht mit deutschen Kommunarden 1970 diskutiert (Link: http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009)

Fragende Grüße
68

Rainer Langhans' answer

Hallo, ganz einfach: Erst als mir vor einigen Jahren der Rolling Stone mit der FM Coverstory in die Hände fiel, ging mir auf, daß die Verschwörungstheorie der Macs uns meinte. Daraufhin versuchten Christa und ich, eine Doku darüber zu machen. Das schreckte wohl die Macs so auf, daß sie eine machten, die die Gerüchte über uns erneut brachte. In unserer Doku wollten wir ergründen, warum und wie Peter sich entwickelte und wie die Band zu diesen Gerüchten kam. Von Euren Rätseleien wußte ich vorher nichts. Für mich war die Begegnung mit Peter damals eine ganz normale und schöne gewesen, wie mit vielen anderen Musikern auch. Man lädt sich ein, feiert und jammt miteinander, drugs incl. Wie mit Peter. Wir trafen ihn nach München noch zweimal in London und er war noch ganz der Superstar und Freund. Kein Drama usw. Umso verblüffender diese späte Legendenbildung der amerikanischen Macs. Man kann sich da manches denken ... Da Peters Vormund und die Macs eine Mitwirkung an unserer Doku verweigerten, überlegten wir, ob wir ein Spielfimprojekt darüber auf die Beine stellen. Aber nicht einfach, so eine Geschichte ... Das berühmte Band: Ja, ich glaube, daß wir unsere Revox-Maschine mitlaufen ließen. Wo das Band ist? Keine Ahnung. Gab es das wirklich? Interessant übrigens, wie lange Ihr gebraucht habt, um mich direkt zu fragen. Es scheint schöner zu sein, sich was auszudenken ... Und was Ihr Euch ausgedacht habt! Genau wie die Macs auch. Ich habe dann auf Euren Foren einiges gelesen...

Gruß
R. Langhans

Quote: http://forum.rollingstone.de/showpost.php?p=2041655&postcount=393

[Ms Moose]

Great to see you back at The Ledge, Popmuseum! Long time no see.

I admire your intention to get to the bottom of this Munich question! Is it possible for you to translate this correspondance into english? I have been struggling with it myself- but my command of german is so bad as I haven't studied it since school - which is quite some time ago :)

Ms Moose :angel:

[doodyhead]

Hello Rainer, why you made your citizen of Munich encounter with Peter Green first so late well known after the blues scene has many decades long gerätselt, who then the citizen of Munich was couple, that towed Greenie 1970 into a community, that he had left as a totally more other.

Does many Blueser interest whether you have another copy of Greenies entrance in the Highfish community? For it should have given its copy his former wife why no one knows, where the with cut is today.

In the Rolling Stone forum, Greens trauma night with German Kommunarden 1970 was discussed long time ago especially enthusiastically Peter (link: http://forum.rollingstone.de/showthread.php?t=29009)

Asking greetings 68

Rainer Langhans' answer

Hello, very simply: First as me some years ago the Rolling Stone with the FM cover story into the hands fell, went me up that the conspiracy theory of the Macs meant us. Thereupon Christa and I tried to make a Doku about that. That startled probably the Macs so that they made one, that brought the rumors over us again. In our Doku, we wanted to fathom why and like Peter developed and like the volumes to these rumors came. Of your riddle eggs, I knew previously nothing. For me, the encounter with Peter had been at that time an entirely normal and beautiful, like with many other musicians also. One invites himself, celebrates and jammt together, drugs incl. How with Peter. We encountered was it to Munich yet twice in London and it yet entire the superstar and friend. No drama etc. All the more more stunning this late legend development of the American Macs. One can think himself there a lot... Because Peter guardian and the Macs denied a cooperation at our Doku, we considered whether we place a Spielfimprojekt about that on the legs. But not simply, so a story... The famous volume: Yes, I believe that we let run our Revox machine. Where is the volume? No idea. Was there that really? Interesting by the way how long needed your in order to ask me directly. It seems to be more beautifully, to contrive itself what... And what contrived your you! Exactly like the Macs also. I read then a few things on your forums...

Greeting R. Langhans

[Popmuseum]

Great to see you back at The Ledge, Popmuseum! Long time no see.

Thank you very much.

Is it possible for you to translate this correspondance into english? I have been struggling with it myself- but my command of german is so bad as I haven't studied it since school - which is quite some time ago :)

I'll give it a try but first I'll get me some coffee :D

[Popmuseum]

As promised - I gave it a try.

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans

Hallo Rainer, wieso hast Du Eure Münchner Begegnung mit Peter Green erst so spät bekannt gemacht, nachdem die Bluesszene viele Jahrzehnte lang gerätselt hat, wer denn das Münchner Paar war, das Greenie 1970 in eine Kommune abgeschleppt hat, die er als ein völlig anderer verlassen habe. Viele Blueser interessiert, ob Du noch eine Kopie von Greenies Auftritt in der Highfish-Kommune hast? Denn er soll seine Kopie seiner Ex-Frau geschenkt haben, weshalb niemand weiss, wo der Mitschnitt heute ist.

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans #1
Hello Rainer, how come you didn't tell about your Munich encounter with Peter Green any sooner, since the blues scene was asking for many decades who in 1970 that Munich couple was, who took Greenie to their commune, which he is said to have left completely changed. A lotta Blues-fans are interested, if you got a copy of Greenies Jam-session at the Highfish-commune? Since he gave his copy to his ex-wife nobody knows, where the tape with his live-recording is today?

Rainer Langhans' answer

Hallo, ganz einfach: Erst als mir vor einigen Jahren der Rolling Stone mit der FM Coverstory in die Hände fiel, ging mir auf, daß die Verschwörungstheorie der Macs uns meinte. Daraufhin versuchten Christa und ich, eine Doku darüber zu machen. Das schreckte wohl die Macs so auf, daß sie eine machten, die die Gerüchte über uns erneut brachte. In unserer Doku wollten wir ergründen, warum und wie Peter sich entwickelte und wie die Band zu diesen Gerüchten kam. Von Euren Rätseleien wußte ich vorher nichts. Für mich war die Begegnung mit Peter damals eine ganz normale und schöne gewesen, wie mit vielen anderen Musikern auch. Man lädt sich ein, feiert und jammt miteinander, drugs incl. Wie mit Peter. Wir trafen ihn nach München noch zweimal in London und er war noch ganz der Superstar und Freund. Kein Drama usw. Umso verblüffender diese späte Legendenbildung der amerikanischen Macs. Man kann sich da manches denken ... Da Peters Vormund und die Macs eine Mitwirkung an unserer Doku verweigerten, überlegten wir, ob wir ein Spielfimprojekt darüber auf die Beine stellen. Aber nicht einfach, so eine Geschichte ... Das berühmte Band: Ja, ich glaube, daß wir unsere Revox-Maschine mitlaufen ließen. Wo das Band ist? Keine Ahnung. Gab es das wirklich? Interessant übrigens, wie lange Ihr gebraucht habt, um mich direkt zu fragen. Es scheint schöner zu sein, sich was auszudenken ... Und was Ihr Euch ausgedacht habt! Genau wie die Macs auch. Ich habe dann auf Euren Foren einiges gelesen...

Late E-Mail-request to Rainer Langhans #2
Hello, it's very simple: It was some years ago when I read the "Rolling Stone" cover-story on Fleetwood Mac when I realised that Fleetwood Mac's conspiracy theory meant us. Thereupon Christa [Ritter] and I tried to make a doku on the Munich accident. That startled probably the Macs so they made a doku by themselves, which recurred the Munich rumors. In our doku, we wanted to fathom why and how Peter developed and how the band made up the Munich rumors. I didn't know you were puzzling about the Munich accident. For me, the encounter with Peter had been an entirely normal and beautiful, like with many other musicians too. You invite them, enjoy their company, jam together, drugs included as with Peter. After Munich we met him twice in London and he was the same superstar and friend as before. No bad scene etc. The more more stunning is the creation of legends by the later Fleetwood Mac. One can think a lot on this. Since Peter's guardian / custodian and Fleetwood Mac denied to cooperate with us on our doku, we considered to make a movie on the Munich accident. But that's not an easy thing to do.

The legendary recording: Yes, I believe that we were recording with our Revox reel tape recorder. Where the recording is? I got no idea. Was there a tape really? By the way it is interesting how long it took (you) to ask me directly. It seems to be more beautifully, to make something up ... And what you made up! The same like the Fleedwood Mac. I read a few things about it in your forums ...

[zoork_1]

Thanks PopM....

Very interesting reading

/z

[Popmuseum]

Thanks PopMuseum Very interesting reading /z

You're welcome.

[Ms Moose]

Thank you very much for taking the time to translate, Popmuseum. The coffee seemed to work its magic:)
Rainer's answer takes a lot of air out of the myth of PG's "sudden personality change" - which is and has always been - unrealistic and unlikely.

It's very interesting that Rainer is indicating that a "trauma-story" has been cooked up by various members of Fleetwood Mac, roadies, media and so on, about how Peter Green came back from this Munich commune encounter, a totally changed person and so on. A very clear example of this is John McVie's anger with these german hippies in the Man of The World DVD. In the Peter Green biography Martin Celmins is sensibly trying to de-mystify the Munich encounter. In the biography Peter's own recollections are close to Rainers in that it didn't seem to be very traumatic to him (PG), on the contrary he was having a good time - and it didn't last for three days.

It must have been traumatic for FM though, because the day after (or in the days after) PG seemed to be determined to leave FM. So the reasoning: "Hippie-commune three day LSD binge" (cause) = "Peter wants out" (effect) was the simple way of explaining something much more complicated within the relationship of the group members. It seemed that PG was fed up with the lack of inspiration coming from the others at the time combined with the conflicts over giving away their money and all that. Maybe the fact is that FM and the people around them never saw what was coming up with regard to PG and his illness - being overworked and heavily involved with drugs themselves at the time. Reality is often too complicated when it comes to making painful things meaningful (like losing PG was to Mick and John). Then it is handy to believe that "a strange major event involving brain washing by jet-set german hippies" changed PG overnight. It's a comfortable story.

Ms Moose

[Evan Morris]

This was a popular story back in the seventies when I became a fan, and seemed to me to be somewhat overblown even then. Everything I read regarding Peter's response to the many questions regarding this incident led me to believe that it was simply easier for Peter to agree with the popular suggestion that he had taken too much acid, took a trip and never came back, etc.. than to try and explain the spiritual journey he was on, a jouney that didn't necessarily include music. I can understand the band's need to find a scapegoat as Peter's departure must have seemed bizzare and inexplicable, especially given the success they were having at the time. Some of the comments that were made by Peter, Jeremy, Mick, and John during the taping of the 2007 documentary support this view in my opinion. Peter's response to the same old question was that he just having fun at the commune. Jeremy's story of how Peter came up with the name Fleetwood Mac, and John's surprise at hearing this story. Not to mention Gary Moore saying that Peter had told him that he was leaving Fleetwood Mac a year before he actually did. These comments and others support the idea that Peter looked at being a member of Fleetwood Mac and any other band for that matter as something temporary, and considerably less important than any spiritual quest he may have be on. As for the Munich tape: After Jeremy mentioned that Peter had told him that this music was the most spiritual music he had ever played, wow! what I would give to hear that!

[slipkid]

According to the Man of of the World DVD, Jeremy thought the music coming from the basement was crap (he was there). I'm sure those jams probably resemble the "End of the Game" material.

I also noticed that not only do the other members from the Man/World DVD use Munich to blame Peter's "change", but they also include Danny Kirwan since he went to the mansion with Peter. "They both were never the same". It does sound convenient doesn't it? Only a crazy person would want to leave a commercially successful rock band just about to break it open in the United States.

However, in Christopher Hjort's book he describes Peter's behavior in Europe as "erratic". He was throwing wah pedals at roadies screaming "fix it", when it wasn't broken. Dinky Dawson tried to avoid him most of the time during that tour. Peter was clearly unhappy. Another example is Peter's request for flash photography to cease once the concert began at the Roundhouse Chalkfarm 4/70. Flashbulbs can really mess with someone who's been affected by LSD. However, his guitar playing was unmatched, a true professional to the end for the fans.

So it's agreed that Peter was leaving no matter what, the question is would Peter have given up music altogether without the drugs? Would his schizophrenia have occurred naturally, possibly later in life?

[chiliD]

Another example is Peter's request for flash photography to cease once the concert began at the Roundhouse Chalkfarm 4/70.

Ahhhhhh, I'm with Peter on this one. Drugs or no drugs. If you've ever been on-stage when someone's TAKING flash photos, it's momentarily disorientating, even to someone completely sober...there's that temporary blindness (spots) that can cause the performer to take a misstep and possibly get hurt from tripping over equipment/cables to accidently bumping into a bandmate to even falling off the edge of the stage. Which is why most artists even today request/demand that no flash photography be taken during shows. It's just downright dangerous for the performer.

[sharksfan2000]

I think a big problem to unraveling the reality of the Munich story is that many of the people who were involved, either directly or indirectly, seem to have their own agenda to push. Mick Fleetwood, Rainer Langhans, and Peter himself have reasons to spin the tale in ways that benefit them. And even if they don't have a personal agenda to push, it's natural that each person will have seen things through their individual experiences and how it affected them personally, plus many of those who have talked or written of the incident were not present during the entire time so they can only guess what else may have happened. Add to that the fact that pretty much everyone involved was using one or more substances that night so memories of the event are sure to be affected by that too.

It seems pretty clear that Peter was going to leave the band soon in any case. IIRC I've read that it took some persuasion to get Peter to return with the band to the UK after the winter 1970 US tour was over - he'd wanted to stay and spend more time in the US, as he would do later that year. So at the very least I think we can put to rest the story that the Munich incident suddenly propelled him to quit the band (though it's possible that it might have provided the last push for him to announce he was leaving).

In the end, it's doubtful that we'll ever know just what happened in Munich...though it sure would be interesting to hear those tapes someday, if they still exist.

[SteveMacD]

I think a big problem to unraveling the reality of the Munich story is that many of the people who were involved, either directly or indirectly, seem to have their own agenda to push. Mick Fleetwood, Rainer Langhans, and Peter himself have reasons to spin the tale in ways that benefit them. And even if they don't have a personal agenda to push, it's natural that each person will have seen things through their individual experiences and how it affected them personally, plus many of those who have talked or written of the incident were not present during the entire time so they can only guess what else may have happened. Add to that the fact that pretty much everyone involved was using one or more substances that night so memories of the event are sure to be affected by that too.
The only thing I see as being somewhat universally true, though, is that people who had been close to Peter noticed an almost immediate change afterwards. Not JUST Mick, but John, Christine, Jenny Fleetwood, and others have commented over the years that there was a stark change in Peter's personality. Given what is known about schizophrenia, he met all of the high risks (i.e. a somewhat introverted, uncertain male with life-long religious issues under the age of 25 suddenly in the spotlight, not exactly sure how to cope with it, who was using hard drugs). It wouldn't really take a lot to get somebody like Peter, or Danny, to that point.

Whether or not he was going to leave Fleetwood Mac is almost irrelevant, the fact that he was digging graves by 1972 says a lot. (I'd argue that there were fixations on death and money.) People leave bands all the time and go on with careers at the same time as their old band. Hell, people have left FLEETWOOD MAC and still gone on with careers (i.e. everybody who joined after Danny Kirwan). Bob Welch wasn't digging graves two years after quitting Fleetwood Mac. There was never a point where Bob was this guy on Monday, but was this other guy by Friday, which WAS the case with Peter.

[slipkid]

The only thing I see as being somewhat universally true, though, is that people who had been close to Peter noticed an almost immediate change afterwards. Not JUST Mick, but John, Christine, Jenny Fleetwood, and others have commented over the years that there was a stark change in Peter's personality. Given what is known about schizophrenia, he met all of the high risks (i.e. a somewhat introverted, uncertain male with life-long religious issues under the age of 25 suddenly in the spotlight, not exactly sure how to cope with it, who was using hard drugs). It wouldn't really take a lot to get somebody like Peter, or Danny, to that point.


Here's what I don't understand about the "introverted" Peter Green:

This is the same person who approached established British blues artist John Mayall (while Clapton was in Greece for a couple months in 1965) to claim he was better than Clapton's replacement onstage. Keith Moon was at least drunk when he told Roger Daltrey he was better than the drummer onstage in 1964. That's just plain brazen confidence. Where did it go? It of course worked out for Green when Clapton formed Cream a year later, Mayall asked Green to replace Clapton.

Peter Green during the Mayall years, and the first year and a half with Fleetwood Mac was very controlling. He knew what he wanted and he expected it from his session musician's, or FM band members. For those who have the "Fleetwood Mac Blue Horizons Sessions" box set know this. Peter Green was a great leader, a task master, he always complained that Mick Fleetwood was behind the beat. He was demanding, but was correct everytime. He used to verbally fight with producer Mike Vernon.


So prior to the first U.S. visit in San Francisco with Owsley Stanley (Bear) in 6/68, Peter Green is a very self confident guitarist. Peter began to change during the first U.S. tour in the fall of '68. That's when "something" happened. From that experience came self doubt: "Man of the World", "Green Manalishi", and "Oh Well". Forget the Munich incident, this "trigger" happened during the U.S. late '68/early '69 tour.

[dino]

So prior to the first U.S. visit in San Francisco with Owsley Stanley (Bear) in 6/68, Peter Green is a very self confident guitarist. Peter began to change during the first U.S. tour in the fall of '68. That's when "something" happened. From that experience came self doubt: "Man of the World", "Green Manalishi", and "Oh Well". Forget the Munich incident, this "trigger" happened during the U.S. late '68/early '69 tour.

Disillusion with fame might have been the trigger? Few people can handle fame. Coupled with some drugs.

[Popmuseum]

Thank you very much for taking the time to translate, Popmuseum. The coffee seemed to work its magic :)

You're welcome. Yes, the viennese coffee was fine. :)

If anyone else wishes to ask Rainer Langhans anything about his Munich encounter with Peter Green "send a private message to me, I'll give you the contact adress you require". - Maybe Langhans took some photographs of Greenie (and him and/or Uschi Obermair)?

[billwebster]

popmuseum, I'd be more reluctant in publishing somebody's email adress on a forum like this. Spammers are everywhere.
Here's a suggestion: Maybe it would be better if you edit your previous message to something like "send a private message to popmuseum, he'll give you the contact adress you require".

[Popmuseum]

Spammers are everywhere.

Yes, you're right!

Here's a suggestion: Maybe it would be better if you edit your previous message to something like "send a private message to popmuseum, he'll give you the contact adress you require".

Fine idea!

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Keith Moon was at least drunk when he told Roger Daltrey he was better than the drummer onstage in 1964.

Well, supposedly it was a friend of Keith's who said "My mate is better than the drummer you've got".

And according to Tony Fletcher it was all set up - Keith had been rehearsing with them for a couple of weeks.

[slipkid]

Well, supposedly it was a friend of Keith's who said "My mate is better than the drummer you've got".

And according to Tony Fletcher it was all set up - Keith had been rehearsing with them for a couple of weeks.

I was wrong, but it made the Peter Green scenario more brazen, thanks! He was the GREEN GOD!

I haven't read that book in over ten years! Do you remember reading when Keith Moon went to seek spiritual guidance ('77), and a person told Keith he was mentally broken?

[dino]

See this link (second to last message) for a picture of and info on the Munich mansion

http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?t=860&page=10

[luminol]

Holy cow, did I just fall down into the rabbit hole... I'm catching up on these old posts.

I'm not nearly as familiar with the early years. I know the standard stories and myths circulating in any basic wikipedia or FM biography page, including the "3 day acid trip in Munich." It's extremely interesting to learn more about that night (including that it was just 1 night rather than 3, etc).

So many thoughts.

First, it's very cool to hear directly from Mr. Jeremy Spencer. Thank you, Mr. Spencer, for sharing your insights!

Second general thought, is it confirmed that the man and woman are Uschi Obermaier and Rainer Langhans? It does seem likely given what I've been reading online about them in my rabbit hole, their associations with Kommune 1, Amon Düül, etc. So fascinating. Popmuseum, thanks for sharing your correspondence with Langhans!

So many thoughts... so many "what ifs."

[Popmuseum]

Popmuseum, thanks for sharing your correspondence with Langhans!"

You're welcome.

By the way: Journalist Ada Wilson wrote a novel which deals with Peter Green's Munich accident*: Red Army Faction Blues. Route (2011). ISBN 978-1-901927-48-1.

https://www.amazon.de/Red-Army-Faction-Blues-Wilson/dp/1901927482

* As my favorite nobel laureate said: "Somebody got lucky. But it was an accident"

[dino]

The only thing I see as being somewhat universally true, though, is that people who had been close to Peter noticed an almost immediate change afterwards. Not JUST Mick, but John, Christine, Jenny Fleetwood, and others have commented over the years that there was a stark change in Peter's personality. Given what is known about schizophrenia, he met all of the high risks (i.e. a somewhat introverted, uncertain male with life-long religious issues under the age of 25 suddenly in the spotlight, not exactly sure how to cope with it, who was using hard drugs). It wouldn't really take a lot to get somebody like Peter, or Danny, to that point.

Whether or not he was going to leave Fleetwood Mac is almost irrelevant, the fact that he was digging graves by 1972 says a lot. (I'd argue that there were fixations on death and money.) People leave bands all the time and go on with careers at the same time as their old band. Hell, people have left FLEETWOOD MAC and still gone on with careers (i.e. everybody who joined after Danny Kirwan). Bob Welch wasn't digging graves two years after quitting Fleetwood Mac. There was never a point where Bob was this guy on Monday, but was this other guy by Friday, which WAS the case with Peter.
The same old, same old. Disagree with all of that. Peter responsibly finished all the gigs Mac had booked before he left. He continued to be a very active musician up until late 1972 or so.
What his band members might have noted in that period was a shift in his attitude towards music. He wanted out of the corporate music business and play free music. It's highly unlikely one night in a Munich castle led him down this path, but tiredness from touring and a gradual disillusionment with the business. That's not LSD damage, that's a change in lifestyle and priorities, possibly influenced by drug use.

And he didn't work as a "gravedigger", he was a gardener at a cemetary. Is gardener a somehow ugly or crazy profession as you seem to imply? The music business is a much "sicker" business.

[dino]

Here's what I don't understand about the "introverted" Peter Green:

This is the same person who approached established British blues artist John Mayall (while Clapton was in Greece for a couple months in 1965) to claim he was better than Clapton's replacement onstage. Keith Moon was at least drunk when he told Roger Daltrey he was better than the drummer onstage in 1964. That's just plain brazen confidence. Where did it go? It of course worked out for Green when Clapton formed Cream a year later, Mayall asked Green to replace Clapton.

Peter Green during the Mayall years, and the first year and a half with Fleetwood Mac was very controlling. He knew what he wanted and he expected it from his session musician's, or FM band members. For those who have the "Fleetwood Mac Blue Horizons Sessions" box set know this. Peter Green was a great leader, a task master, he always complained that Mick Fleetwood was behind the beat. He was demanding, but was correct everytime. He used to verbally fight with producer Mike Vernon.


So prior to the first U.S. visit in San Francisco with Owsley Stanley (Bear) in 6/68, Peter Green is a very self confident guitarist. Peter began to change during the first U.S. tour in the fall of '68. That's when "something" happened. From that experience came self doubt: "Man of the World", "Green Manalishi", and "Oh Well". Forget the Munich incident, this "trigger" happened during the U.S. late '68/early '69 tour.

Adulation, fame and drugs is a lethal cocktail.

[Popmuseum]

Liam Firlej (Peter Green's son) interviews Rainer Langhans on his father's incident at Munich in 1970 (Peter's son interviews Rainer Langhans)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa36oA8L-6Y&t=3588s

Oliver Strosetzki (guitar) interviews Rainer Langhans on Peter Green's stay at Munich in 1970 (September 2020)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6b8VvEjjkE

Seems interesting to me.