A Religious Leader Who Isn't An Idiot

[sparky]

I about fell over. Common sense in a church.

How long before they burn HER at the stake ?


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newly elected leader of the U.S. Episcopal Church Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori said on Monday she believed homosexuality was no sin and homosexuals were created by God to love people of the same gender.

Jefferts Schori, bishop of the Diocese of Nevada, was elected on Sunday as the first woman leader of the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church. the U.S. branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion. She will formally take office later this year.

Interviewed on CNN, Jefferts Schori was asked if it was a sin to be homosexual.

"I don't believe so. I believe that God creates us with different gifts. Each one of us comes into this world with a different collection of things that challenge us and things that give us joy and allow us to bless the world around us," she said.


"Some people come into this world with affections ordered toward other people of the same gender and some people come into this world with affections directed at people of the other gender."

Jefferts Schori's election seemed certain to exacerbate splits within a Episcopal Church that is already deeply divided over homosexuality with several dioceses and parishes threatening to break away.

It could also widen divisions with other Anglican communities, including the Church of England, which do not allow women bishops.

In the worldwide Anglican church women are bishops only in Canada, the United States and New Zealand. The Robinson issue has been particularly criticized in Africa where the church has a growing membership and where homosexuality is often taboo.

Jefferts Schori, who was raised a Roman Catholic and graduated in marine biology with a doctorate specialization in squids and oysters, supported the consecration of Gene Robinson of New Hampshire, the first openly gay bishop in more than 450 years of Anglican history.

The 52-year-old bishop is married to Richard Schori, a retired theoretical mathematician. They have one daughter, Katharine Johanna, 24, a second lieutenant in the U.S. Air Force and a pilot like her mother.

Asked how she reconciled her position on homosexuality with specific passages in the Bible declaring sexual relations between men an abomination, Jefferts Schori said the Bible was written in a very different historical context by people asking different questions.

"The Bible has a great deal to teach us about how to live as human beings. The Bible does not have so much to teach us about what sorts of food to eat, what sorts of clothes to wear -- there are rules in the Bible about those that we don't observe today," she said.

"The Bible tells us about how to treat other human beings, and that's certainly the great message of Jesus -- to include the unincluded."

[DavidMn]

Huh? What's this?:laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

:thumbsup: I love it when people just seem to get it right!

SEEE not all religious people are mean and evil. This lady and Jane Fonda really seem to have the right idea!

**I threw Jane Fonda in there because I recently read her book and really liked what she had to say about her Christianity.***

[DavidMn]

Wouldn't it be great if everyone just took the good things, the wise things, from the bible, instead of the hatred, ritual and the superstition? Although I was raised Catholic, I was very lucky that I had parents who understood that.Yeah but if that was the case, how would there be excuses for all these wars and what the Terrorists have to say?:(

[foxyluva]

[B]"The Bible has a great deal to teach us about how to live as human beings. The Bible does not have so much to teach us about what sorts of food to eat, what sorts of clothes to wear -- there are rules in the Bible about those that we don't observe today," she said.


Very true - the bible says it is a sin to eat rare meat, and it is a sin to wear garments of mixed fabrics...

[DavidMn]

Isn't it all an excuse anyway?But of course.:distress:

[strandinthewind]

This woman is a rather bright light. I mean she became a priest a realtively very short time ago and is now one of the haeds of the whole thing and is widely liked. That is such a good thing!

[Jason T.]

That's so awesome! Now if only us Catholics can have a leader like this... *sigh*

[ThePenguin]

That's so awesome! Now if only us Catholics can have a leader like this... *sigh*

don't hold your breath. :-(

-Lis

[irishgrl]

This woman is a rather bright light. I mean she became a priest a realtively very short time ago and is now one of the haeds of the whole thing and is widely liked. That is such a good thing!
She beat out that guy from Alabama who vociferously opposed homosexuality...as well as 6 other candidates :angel:

[sparky]

SEEE not all religious people are mean and evil. This lady and Jane Fonda really seem to have the right idea!


It's usually just the leaders. Pity, people so often listen to them.

If only we could clone her. She has balls, that's for sure.

[irishgrl]

It's usually just the leaders. Pity, people so often listen to them.

If only we could clone her. She has balls, that's for sure.

I hope Im wrong but Im afraid the backlash (OH! the moral indignation!) will cost her her job. :distress:

[Red]

Well Christ, isn't this refreshing??:nod:

[sparky]

Well Christ, isn't this refreshing??:nod:

I love you for that one.:laugh:

[Red]

I love you for that one.:laugh:

Mwah!!:xoxo: :laugh:

[Sahara]

I hope Im wrong but Im afraid the backlash (OH! the moral indignation!) will cost her her job. :distress:

If she's coming out with this sort of stuff that directly contradicts what her church says, then maybe she's not doing much of a good job at it to begin with. :shrug:
I thought the purpose of religious leaders was to uphold the beliefs of their church, not to just pick and choose what they want to believe and preach.
When we start picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible and from God's teachings we're making up our own little version of God, and how can we be sure of truth in that?

Just my two cents' worth. :shrug:


PS: To call religious leaders and those who believe homosexuality is sinful "idiots" is a bit much.

[Alison]

Sahara, please clear out your message box. I was trying to send you something.

[DrummerDeanna]

If she's coming out with this sort of stuff that directly contradicts what her church says, then maybe she's not doing much of a good job at it to begin with. :shrug:
I thought the purpose of religious leaders was to uphold the beliefs of their church, not to just pick and choose what they want to believe and preach.
When we start picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible and from God's teachings we're making up our own little version of God, and how can we be sure of truth in that?

Just my two cents' worth. :shrug:


PS: To call religious leaders and those who believe homosexuality is sinful "idiots" is a bit much.


Right - But don't you see that the homosexuality debate is something that has been PICKED AND CHOSEN - it's one little passage that has been horribly misinterpreted because of POLITICS NOT RELIGION!

So those who believe homosexuality is a sin? Well they're VERY guilty of picking and choosing from the Bible. And that is the truth.

Edit: Here's a little Internet thing I always laugh at - it makes an excellent point:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to
defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other
elements of God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it
creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my
neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I
smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned
in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is
in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male
and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if
I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig
makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can
help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

[sparky]

Right - But don't you see that the homosexuality debate is something that has been PICKED AND CHOSEN - it's one little passage that has been horribly misinterpreted because of POLITICS NOT RELIGION!

So those who believe homosexuality is a sin? Well they're VERY guilty of picking and choosing from the Bible. And that is the truth.


BINGO !
What shocked me most about this woman was she is the first religious leader I have ever heard talk about this selective belief in print. The mixed fibers ! :lol: Straight from Macy's to Hell !
And she actually mentioned the evidently unmentionable historical context issue. I am so impressed by her. I think they will hang her over educated ass from the highest tree, but I am impressed. She might actually get a few people to think before they lynch her.

[DrummerDeanna]

BINGO !
What shocked me most about this woman was she is the first religious leader I have ever heard talk about this selective belief in print. The mixed fibers ! :lol: Straight from Macy's to Hell !
And she actually mentioned the evidently unmentionable historical context issue. I am so impressed by her. I think they will hang her over educated ass from the highest tree, but I am impressed. She might actually get a few people to think before they lynch her.

I hope so too - I mean I hope she sticks first and foremost - but my faith in that is low :distress:

Why oh why out of everything to focus on are people so damn intent on demonizing homosexuals? It really makes NO sense to me at ALL.

AND Worse...what kind of a religious leader would advocate hatred and dissent based on their religion and Bible...but that seems to be the majority :(

I was taught by religious leaders in my community growing up that the Bible is NOT a weapon, is NOT a tool of derision...it's a guide.

And as for my own religiousity - well I hope that the few people like that woman and myself and others that will affect change..maybe not tomorrow - but someday :D

[sparky]

I hope so too - I mean I hope she sticks first and foremost - but my faith in that is low :distress:

Why oh why out of everything to focus on are people so damn intent on demonizing homosexuals? It really makes NO sense to me at ALL.


Enemy. People need an enemy. Not even Muslims are a big enough target for the seething and seemingly endless rage and fear. They will always want a target at home too. I wish I knew why. Human nature ? All I can say is that most of the people who spout this stuff are led there.

AND Worse...what kind of a religious leader would advocate hatred and dissent based on their religion and Bible...but that seems to be the majority :(

Lowest common denominator, I suppose. It's all about good and evil, black and white. Like I said, people love a target. They want to fight something. And they want to see it as they take it down.

I was taught by religious leaders in my community growing up that the Bible is NOT a weapon, is NOT a tool of derision...it's a guide.

And as for my own religiousity - well I hope that the few people like that woman and myself and others that will affect change..maybe not tomorrow - but someday :D

You were lucky. Fight the good fight. Spread the word. To badly paraphrase Bon Jovi, "You give religion a good name !"

[Jason T.]

don't hold your breath. :-(

-Lis

If only I believed in miracles... :o

[DrummerDeanna]

If only I believed in miracles... :o


well we've made some progress..women no longer HAVE to wear doilies on their heads for mass ;)

[Jason T.]

well we've made some progress..women no longer HAVE to wear doilies on their heads for mass ;)
lol -- you're right...change is coming...just verrrry slowly.

I'm just waiting until they elect Stevie as Pope

Pope Stevie of Shangri-La :angel:

[DrummerDeanna]

lol -- you're right...change is coming...just verrrry slowly.

I'm just waiting until they elect Stevie as Pope

Pope Stevie of Shangri-La :angel:


:laugh: You're gonna be waiting a loooong time ;)

Sadly a woman can't even make it to priest - that's one thing I'd like to see changed, that and the celibate thing...erm on second though perhaps I should just veer on over to Episcopal land (which actually is something I've considered).

[Sahara]

Right - But don't you see that the homosexuality debate is something that has been PICKED AND CHOSEN - it's one little passage that has been horribly misinterpreted because of POLITICS NOT RELIGION!

I don't understand what you mean, sorry. It's there in black and white plenty of times, how has it been misinterpreted?
So those who believe homosexuality is a sin? Well they're VERY guilty of picking and choosing from the Bible.

How so?

Religious leaders who say that homosexuality is sinful don't advocate hatred and dissent. Sure, some do, some individuals do, but that's not the way of God. Any religious leader doing the work of God doesn't advocate hatred of anyone.
Similarly, those who think homosexuality is sinful aren't intent on demonizing them. Again, it's a small minority. They need an enemy, someone to victimize? No. It's the act we disagree with, not the person.

To say we've at least made progress is kind of worrying to me. God's word is forever. Society changes but God doesn't change, and even when society accepts certain things it doesn't mean that the Church must conform to them.

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't understand what you mean, sorry. It's there in black and white plenty of times, how has it been misinterpreted?


How so?

Religious leaders who say that homosexuality is sinful don't advocate hatred and dissent. Sure, some do, some individuals do, but that's not the way of God. Any religious leader doing the work of God doesn't advocate hatred of anyone.
Similarly, those who think homosexuality is sinful aren't intent on demonizing them. Again, it's a small minority. They need an enemy, someone to victimize? No. It's the act we disagree with, not the person.

To say we've at least made progress is kind of worrying to me. God's word is forever. Society changes but God doesn't change, and even when society accepts certain things it doesn't mean that the Church must conform to them.

Actually it's only in black and white a couple of times compared to the hundres of references condeming sex acts etc between heterosexuals.

The people who use Leviticus as the anti-gay thing have taken it competely out of historical context.

AND they've chosen to heed only that passage. How is that NOT picking and choosing? The letter I posted above clearly illustrates how yes, in fact, people ARE picking and chosing which parts of God's word to obey. :shrug:

EDIT:


I'm NOT discussing this further. Those who think homosexuality is a sin won't change their minds based on what I have to say and I'm generally not a fan of talking at brick walls.

I believe what I believe, and I happen to think it's sinful for people to pass judgement on other based solely on who and how they love.

[Sugar]

Well it seems to me it's all about interpretation. There was a guest opinion in my local paper this Saturday from a pastor who essentially said that they embrace homosexual couples because they perceive the Bible to be about love and family and that protecting the children should come first. Interestingly enough, she also went on to say that, because of that position, a ban on gay marriage (in the civil arena) could possibly be seen as the state infringing on their religious beliefs.

Are they wrong? Who knows...until God him/herself comes down and starts explaining things, it will always be about interpretation.

Frankly I don't care about what any church says. I mean, I see this as a step toward tolerance and certainly seems to be more in line with the spirit of the Bible, but churches have a right to construct their own belief system.

It's when religion is used as the sole justification for any civil law that bugs me.

[Sahara]

Actually it's only in black and white a couple of times compared to the hundres of references condeming sex acts etc between heterosexuals.

True enough, but it is there.

The people who use Leviticus as the anti-gay thing have taken it competely out of historical context.

AND they've chosen to heed only that passage. How is that NOT picking and choosing?

Leviticus isn't the only place where we're told about homosexuality ~ far from it, you say yourself, it's there a couple of times. It's there in the New Testament too.

The letter I posted above clearly illustrates how yes, in fact, people ARE picking and chosing which parts of God's word to obey. :shrug:

No, sorry, but that to me seems completely backwards. The letter you posted is taking Leviticus out of historical context. When God handed down his laws to Moses they were intended to draw his people together ~ and to be honest, many of them were based on common sense. When Jesus came to us he didn't throw the book out the window but he did oppose the way that those laws had been used. Everything had become about ritual and people had lost sight of the most important things ~ love and God.
So Jesus gave us a new commandment -- to love God, and to love one another. Homosexuality directly contradicts love for God, and if anyone wants me to explain why, I will.

I believe what I believe, and I happen to think it's sinful for people to pass judgement on other based solely on who and how they love.

As I've said, it's the act we disagree with, not the person. Whether someone is homosexual or not to a large extent doesn't matter. Being homosexual is not wrong ~ it's the decision (THEIR decision) to act on it and engage in homosexual acts that is wrong.

[sparky]

God's word is forever.

Ummm....until the bible gets rewritten and re-edited by the king and whoever else happens to feel like it.

:laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

'What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality,' (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188636009X/sr=8-1/qid=1150840203/ref=sr_1_1/002-6040584-8800854?%5Fencoding=UTF8) by Daniel A. Helminiak

[becca]

God doesn't change

God creates right? So when has it ever been that a creative being has not grown and changed? Ask any creative person. You are imposing your idea upon God with a statement like that. Basically the Bible is a collection of works by man about God. I don't know anybody who has studied the Bible who says anything otherwise, including every Pope I would imagine. Dr. Laura is typical of the kinds of lazy minded no-nothings who call themselves Christian as the open letter to her beautifully demonstates. So often I have nitwits at the door with their full color pamphlets and I could swear their Bible and mine have nothing in common if they ever even bother to read theirs. Essentially I'm a Gideon by the way. You would hope that we really could have at least gotten more educated, and the amazing success of the Da Vinci Code also proves how little the average person really knows about the holy book and it's creation and evolution.

People speaking for God are nothing new, nor is the percentage who produce fruits of negativity by which ye shall know them! The hell and brimstone some seek to command will be theirs but not to command, they will have it when the sword comes around full circle to the double edged side we are told.

Love you neighbor, love your enemy, only that way is change possible. People's mere existance being a sin is not something I can agree with at all, it says God made mistakes in creating. Only the Gnostics (and maybe the Buddhist Jainists) believe in simple existence being a sin.

[becca]

P.S.

I expect God also sees hidden things like a person's motivation, so the innocent person who parrots the talking points brought up by a self righteous public prayer type will be known, but we can't always know and should love them anyway. Even those who do believe in homosexuality being a sin are told to let he who is without sin cast the first stone and see the timber in your own eye first.

If it is wrong or a sin for you speak for yourself. I can't eat crab meat as I'm allergic to it, but that does not mean crabs or people who eat them are evil or sinning, nor does it mean that nobody should eat it because it is wrong for me to. God created an amazing variety and in variety there is strength. This is the God I meet every day through His creations, the God I read about in the divenly inspired writings of many people. Let those who have ears listen Jesus says.

[foxyluva]

I think the point is that people pick and choose what they want to believe in in the Bible. If you believe that homosexual people are sinning because the act on their feelings - then you must believe that people who wear clothes of mixed fabrics, eat rare meat etc. are sinning as well :shrug:

[sparky]

'What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality,' (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188636009X/sr=8-1/qid=1150840203/ref=sr_1_1/002-6040584-8800854?%5Fencoding=UTF8) by Daniel A. Helminiak

Interesting. I read a few of the reviews. It was telling that there are references to Boswell. That book was a dry, heavy brick of a read. This looks like it might be easier to digest. While I felt at times Boswell was stretching a bit, I think I might pick this up for the heck of it when I have a lapse in the book heap. Good suggestion.

[amber]

So Jesus gave us a new commandment -- to love God, and to love one another. Homosexuality directly contradicts love for God, and if anyone wants me to explain why, I will.

Did anyone else catch this?

Okay, since that flies in the face of everything I perceive as logical, I'll ask you to explain. I can't resist.
Unless the explanation is something like: "Because god doesn't like homosexuals, so if you are homosexual, you could not possibly love god, or else you would do what god wants."

Or if it's something like "God wants us to procreate, and homosexuals don't have children, so if you are homosexual you aren't having children, therefore don't love god."

If the explanation is anything but those two things, I'm very interested.

[sparky]

You know, it's a head against a brick wall, but one of the things that has always bothered me about some religious people is their insistence on dwelling on the negative behaviors of everyone. I don't see a lot of LOVE in the actions of most. I don't see a lot charity in the actions of most. Having read the bible more than once and having thought about it quite a lot, I find I am most interested in the current movement known as the What Would Jesus Do group. It makes me think.

If Jesus were walking about the earth right now, what do I think he would do ?

Hm.

Possibilites :

1. He'd be in Iraq, trying to administer to men and woman who have had their guts torn out of their bodies by artillery and are dying in the sand.

2. Trying to talk sense into people in the middle east who like to cut the heads of other human beings off and film it.

3. Tending to the battered women and children.

4. Feeding the starving.

5. Helping the countless crystal meth addicts desperately crawling about our cities. And soothing the open sores on their bodies.

6. Trying to find and speak to the one shread of humantiy left in the heart of a serial killer on death row.

7. Washing the feet of an elderly person who has been abandoned by their family and has no money, no food, and no ONE.

What I doubt Jesus would be doing...

1. Lobbying congress to deny people the right to marry.

2. Picketing funerals.

3. Blowing up abortion clinics.

4. Arguing with people about who they love.

5. Legislating anything.

6. Threatening anyone.

7. Posting on a message board telling people what a sin is and isn't.

Last I heard, the main message is God Is Love.

Why do most Christians get a bad rap ?

They forgot this message so long ago, they couldn't define it or live it to save their lives. Not to mention their souls.

[Red]

Being homosexual is not wrong ~ it's the decision (THEIR decision) to act on it and engage in homosexual acts that is wrong.

Yikes.:distress:

What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying having the ability to breathe is not wrong, its the decision to breathe and acting upon it that's wrong.

I guess I'm just surprised that people in the day and age still choose to believe that homosexuality is nothing more than a controllable urge, like a craving for butterscoth pudding.

[Sahara]

Posting on a message board telling people what a sin is and isn't.


This place is to express opinions, for debate, right? That's what we're doing.
EDIT: Besides, I would have thought that'd be exactly what He'd be doing. Telling about the Word of His Father? :shrug:

Okay, since that flies in the face of everything I perceive as ogical, I'll ask you to explain. I can't resist.


OK, here goes:
Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.
You use the phrase "if you are homosexual" -- again, being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act that is.
It's perfectly possible to be homosexual and love God, but homosexuality (I believe) is a trial -- can we love God enough to do what he wants us to do?
Hope that answers your question.

Yikes.:distress:

What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying having the ability to breathe is not wrong, its the decision to breathe and acting upon it that's wrong.

I guess I'm just surprised that people in the day and age still choose to believe that homosexuality is nothing more than a controllable urge, like a craving for butterscoth pudding.

That analogy makes zero sense, sex is not essential for survival, breathing is. Again, you're missing my point -- being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act, which is controllable. It's about self-restraint, doing what God wants and not merely what the flesh tells us to.

[DrummerDeanna]

Possibilites :

1. He'd be in Iraq, trying to administer to men and woman who have had their guts torn out of their bodies by artillery and are dying in the sand.

2. Trying to talk sense into people in the middle east who like to cut the heads of other human beings off and film it.

3. Tending to the battered women and children.

4. Feeding the starving.

5. Helping the countless crystal meth addicts desperately crawling about our cities. And soothing the open sores on their bodies.

6. Trying to find and speak to the one shread of humantiy left in the heart of a serial killer on death row.

7. Washing the feet of an elderly person who has been abandoned by their family and has no money, no food, and no ONE.

What I doubt Jesus would be doing...

1. Lobbying congress to deny people the right to marry.

2. Picketing funerals.

3. Blowing up abortion clinics.

4. Arguing with people about who they love.

5. Legislating anything.

6. Threatening anyone.

7. Posting on a message board telling people what a sin is and isn't.

Last I heard, the main message is God Is Love.

Why do most Christians get a bad rap ?

They forgot this message so long ago, they couldn't define it or live it to save their lives. Not to mention their souls.


EXACTLY!!!! Jane Fonda addresses this in her book as well - she says something to the effect of the men in power today who lean so heavily on their religion and faith would be the first to call Jesus "soft" and persecute him if he were alive today because he so does not personify anything that the people in power display.

So you made an excellent point above!!!

[DrummerDeanna]

OK, here goes:
Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.


LOL...I just can't help myself. So with that logic pretty much the only people who can have sex are those who are capable of having children. The notion that sex is "bad" if it's not for the purpose of procreation is something that was cooked up by MEN in power at the time the books of the Bible were written.

Sorry all you elderly women who've gone through "the change"

, you can't have sex anymore. If you do you are a sinner and an abomination.

Sorry all you infertile men and women..tough break, no more sex for you - if you have sex without reproducing you're a big fat sinner.

Sorry all you people who use birth control pills - even if it's for health reasons - you are a sinner.


In the end we are all free to believe what we want - but I think it's wrong for mere mortals to pass ANY judgement onto other about what is deemed "sinful"

[The Catdancer]

This place is to express opinions, for debate, right? That's what we're doing.
EDIT: Besides, I would have thought that'd be exactly what He'd be doing. Telling about the Word of His Father? :shrug:



OK, here goes:
Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.
You use the phrase "if you are homosexual" -- again, being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act that is.
It's perfectly possible to be homosexual and love God, but homosexuality (I believe) is a trial -- can we love God enough to do what he wants us to do?
Hope that answers your question.



That analogy makes zero sense, sex is not essential for survival, breathing is. Again, you're missing my point -- being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act, which is controllable. It's about self-restraint, doing what God wants and not merely what the flesh tells us to.

So God created us with feelings for someone of the same gender but we can't act on it? That's just cuel and in my world God is not a cruel God, He is the God of love. But in your opinion we shouldn't love someone of the same gender, we should get married to someone who we don't like to share the rest of our lives with, have sex with that person which we really don't want to do but we have to in order to create life and we secretly have feelings for the neighbor because he/she is THE ONE. But we can't 'act' on it because it's a sin??? That's a good recipe for a nice life.... NOT!!!!
And about Jesus, no He didn't throw the book out of the window but He didn't say anything against homosexuality either. To my knowledge it's never mentioned in the New Testament. He was all about love and that's what this is all about. We're not all about sex. Do you think we're hanging from the chandeliers every second of every day??? We love someone, a person and that person happens to be of the same gender.
Tell me something, when you love someone and you're willing to spend the rest of your life with him, are you only going to have sex 4 times because you want 4 children????

[Red]

That analogy makes zero sense, sex is not essential for survival, breathing is. Again, you're missing my point -- being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act, which is controllable. It's about self-restraint, doing what God wants and not merely what the flesh tells us to.

You're not understanding what I'm saying - love and sex are inherent in human beings. We're made that way aren't we? God equipped us with feelings emotions to seperate us from the animals (so to speak anyway, that's a whole other debate right there). Are you saying you can contol love? That you can control the natural feelings you have toward another human being? You are capable of this?

[DrummerDeanna]

You're not understanding what I'm saying - love and sex are inherent in human beings. We're made that way aren't we? God equipped us with feelings emotions to seperate us from the animals (so to speak anyway, that's a whole other debate right there). Are you saying you can contol love? That you can control the natural feelings you have toward another human being? You are capable of this?


Well I think what she was saying is that SEX can be controlled. Not love per se, but humans CAN control whether or not they have sex. They can't control who they love and how they love but the sex can be decided upon. Whereas air - well that's not a decision - we pretty much HAVE to breathe in order to survive, whereas we don't have to have sex to survive (lol - that's something that is just begging to be argued against ;) )

I think that's what she is saying.

It's still not a great argument in my opinion. You don't tell married infertile couples that they're free to love one another - it's just not cool if they have sex. :shrug:

[The Catdancer]

LOL...I just can't help myself. So with that logic pretty much the only people who can have sex are those who are capable of having children. The notion that sex is "bad" if it's not for the purpose of procreation is something that was cooked up by MEN in power at the time the books of the Bible were written.

Sorry all you elderly women who've gone through "the change"

, you can't have sex anymore. If you do you are a sinner and an abomination.

Sorry all you infertile men and women..tough break, no more sex for you - if you have sex without reproducing you're a big fat sinner.

Sorry all you people who use birth control pills - even if it's for health reasons - you are a sinner.


In the end we are all free to believe what we want - but I think it's wrong for mere mortals to pass ANY judgement onto other about what is deemed "sinful"

Very good points :lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

Very good points :lol:


Oh piss - and I didn't mean to imply that any woman who has gone through the change is "elderly" :laugh:

I can feel my mom slapping me across the head already :p

[Jason T.]

...erm on second though perhaps I should just veer on over to Episcopal land (which actually is something I've considered).
You know -- it doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. Granted, I'm not sure if I'm going to let Catholicism get rid of me that easily.

[DrummerDeanna]

You know -- it doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. Granted, I'm not sure if I'm going to let Catholicism get rid of me that easily.


Well I do have the "Catholic Guilt" beating me down every second of my life - I'm not sure I can take leaving. Damn Catholic Guilt.

[Sahara]

Right, clearly I'm just upsetting people so I'm going to back out of this.

No offense intended to anyone.

[strandinthewind]

Right, clearly I'm just upsetting people so I'm going to back out of this.

No offense intended to anyone.

I think, with respect, it is your unwillingness to discuss or concede that the current version of The Bible, really does nothing to address homosexuality as it is known today. I mean you certainly can think what you want about The Bible, but to ignore the historical context in which it is set and which shaped its formation is not really accurate.

Just my $0.02

[carrie721]

In addition to forgetting the historical context in which these tracts were written, many also forget that the bibles we have today are not the original texts written by matthew, mark, etc, and whoever wrote the books of the old testament (can you tell i'm not a bible scholar?? :angel: ). We have documents that have been edited and rewritten by men in power over the last 2000 years to fit their needs. So even if you believe God was speaking through the authors of these books, they have been tampered with, and not by God; if he were going to hand down his words to the people, wouldn't he get it right the first time? Many of the "laws" that God supposedly handed down have been accepted by many as necessary at the time, but obsolete now. An example of this is kosher food rules in the Jewish faith. Many acknowledge now that these were enacted to encourage safe & healthy eating practices because there were no means of refrigeration or preservation of food ... but no one's really going to hell if he/she drinks milk while eating meat, and it's certainly not an "abomination."

On another note. Homophobia doesn't bother me; it's an irrational fear, and most people who express it usually have homosexual tendencies themselves. What bothers me is when people use false logic and "God's word" to tell me that my actions are an abomination.

It's interesting that you're willing to start this but are backing out now.

[strandinthewind]

The people who believe The Bible to be literal believe that although The Bible has been changed by mankind over time, God guided those changes, etc. I think that is incorrect and greed and power guided many of those changes - in fact, history mostly supports me on that.

In the end, I think The Bible is a womnderful book and its main message has inspired me so many times. For example, I do not, however, get caught up in whether Noah really had an ark that could house two of all six million or so species. I focus on the point of the story, which is God so loved mankind that He wanted to wash the sin in the world away and allow man a fresh start. To know someone loves me like that inspires me.

[carrie721]

^^ But even by that logic ... why didn't he get it right the first time? In addition to greed and power, I'd add fear, too.

You're right that the magic of the bible is its allegory, not its literal meaning, and that its most important message is LOVE, not whether gays are going to hell. Not enough people realize this, though.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

Interestingly, along the lines of literal translation - Genesis has two creation stories, to wit (KJV) (emphasis supplied)

Genesis (KJV)

1.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [the first creation - the woman is rumored to be Lilith, whose story is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith )
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2.

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [This is the second creation story]
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
___________________________________________________________

So, the point is it matters not if Adam and Eve existed - it matters only that God so loved mankind that He gave it the world - and to me, it does not matter if he used nature and evolution to fulfill that gift.

[DrummerDeanna]

^^^

So, the point is it matters not if Adam and Eve existed - it matters only that God so loved mankind that He gave it the world - and to me, it does not matter if he used nature and evolution to fulfill that gift.


Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :p

Seriously though, if one more person says that and actually means it - I may have to be committed due to total and complete nervous breakdown.

[strandinthewind]

Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :p

Waakkka Waaakkkka Waakkka :laugh:

[carrie721]

Awww, strandy, what'd I tell you about letting others making my arguments for me? :xoxo:

I knew there were many inconsistencies in the Bible, but I never knew about this one.

[carrie721]

Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :p

Seriously though, if one more person says that and actually means it - I may have to be committed due to total and complete nervous breakdown.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

thanks for the laugh!

[strandinthewind]

Awww, strandy, what'd I tell you about letting others making my arguments for me? :xoxo:

I knew there were many inconsistencies in the Bible, but I never knew about this one.

I have this brain where completely irrelevant and non-revenue generating stuff just sticks in it :laugh:

[amber]

Or if it's something like "God wants us to procreate, and homosexuals don't have children, so if you are homosexual you aren't having children, therefore don't love god."
If the explanation is anything but those two things, I'm very interested.



Basically this is what it comes down to: life is a gift from God. Life is sacred, the purpose of sex is to create life, therefore sex is sacred also. A sacred bond between man and woman, as God intended it to be. Sex is for procreation, not recreation. The purpose of sex is to create life and therefore anything which gets in the way of that gift of life (eg contraception -- no, I'm not getting into a debate on that -- or homosexuality) is defying the will of God.

I explicitly stated I only wanted to hear the explanation if it wasn't one of two things.
You chose one of those two things anyway. What does god say about reading more carefully in order to spare others immense brain-blowing-a-fuse pain and cognitive dissonance? :laugh:

[carrie721]

What does god say about reading more carefully in order to spare others immense brain-blowing-fuse pain and cognitive dissonance? :laugh:

*snort*

Yes, I think that can be found in the unpopular 11th commandment: Thou Shalt Not Reiterate.

[amber]

*snort*

Yes, I think that can be found in the unpopular 11th commandment: Thou Shalt Not Reiterate.

:laugh:


*snort* right back atcha.

Gosh, it's too bad "god" didn't say anything about overpopulation and managing our resources more wisely, that would have been a lot more handy right now than that procreation thing. I think we've pretty much got that one down.

[DrummerDeanna]

:laugh:


*snort* right back atcha.

Gosh, it's too bad "god" didn't say anything about overpopulation and managing our resources more wisely, that would have been a lot more handy right now than that procreation thing. I think we've pretty much got that one down.


:laugh: Seriously. Thou shalt not pillage, rape and ruin the beautiful planet I provided you with...or something to that effect.

[carrie721]

:laugh:


*snort* right back atcha.

Gosh, it's too bad "god" didn't say anything about overpopulation and managing our resources more wisely, that would have been a lot more handy right now than that procreation thing. I think we've pretty much got that one down.

That reminds me ... I just saw An Inconvenient Truth last night. Scary stuff. Clearly you & Al Gore are unfamiliar with the Twelfth Commandment: Thou Shalt Drive A Hummer, For It Be The Manifestation Of God's Beauty On Earth.

[Johnny Stew]

Sex is for procreation, not recreation.When every Christian heterosexual couple ceases to have sex except in those times when they're legitimately trying to conceive a child, then we'll talk. :)

[carrie721]

When every Christian heterosexual couple ceases to have sex except in those times when they're legitimately trying to conceive a child, then we'll talk. :)

Word. I don't think God cares that much about what we do with our bodies, as long as nobody gets hurt (unless you're into that sort of thing! :D ).

[Johnny Stew]

Actually, it looks like you missed the realpoint which is God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :p

Seriously though, if one more person says that and actually means it - I may have to be committed due to total and complete nervous breakdown.I've found the best response to the ol' "Adam & Steve" crap. When someone brings it up, I always add, "yes, but don't forget that Adam & Eve only had two sons -- so who in that family slept with whom in order to propagate?"

Incest shuts 'em up everytime. :D

[carrie721]

I've found the best response to the ol' "Adam & Steve" crap. When someone brings it up, I always add, "yes, but don't forget that Adam & Eve only had two sons -- so who in that family slept with whom in order to propagate?"

Incest shuts 'em up everytime. :D

omfg. That is hillllllarious. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

I've found the best response to the ol' "Adam & Steve" crap. When someone brings it up, I always add, "yes, but don't forget that Adam & Eve only had two sons -- so who in that family slept with whom in order to propagate?"

Incest shuts 'em up everytime. :D

Well, that is not exaclty the whole of it and it brings up the next, if you will, fallacy of creationism, which is in the following text:

Genesis 4 (KJV)

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

_________________________________

When did Nod come into the picture and how was it populated?

As an aside - the use of the number seven is also a source of comment, to wit:

http://www.direct.ca/trinity/seven.html

Also -

Below is a list of numbers written in the Bible with their meanings.


Number Meaning
One Beginning, one
Two Witness, separation
Three The Trinity (Godhead)
Four Earth, creation, world
Five Grace, cross, atonement, life
Six Man, beast, Satan
Seven Perfection, completeness
Eight New beginning
Nine Completeness, finality, fulness
Ten Law, government, restoration
Eleven Incompleteness, disorganization, disintegration
Twelve Divine government, apostolic fulness
Thirteen Rebellion, backsliding, apostacy.
Fourteen Passover
Seventeen Spiritual order
Twenty-four Priestly courses; governmental perfection
Thirty Consecration; maturity for ministry
Forty Probation, testing, closing in victory or judgment
Fifty Pentecost, liberty, freedom, jubilee
Seventy Prior to increase
Seventy-five Separation, cleansing, purification
One hundred twenty End of all flesh, beginning life in the Spirit
One hundred forty-four God's ultimate in creation
One hundred fifty-three Revival, the elect
Three hundred Faithful remnant
Six hundred sixty-six Antichrist, Satan, the damned Triplicate 666

[Johnny Stew]

Hey, let's remember Sahara is just 16 and has been brought up in a strict religious atmosphere (because that's what Ireland is like). She seems like a nice person and may well change her mind about these things.Absolutely. And I hope Sahara understands that we're not trying to attack her for her beliefs (at least I don't believe anyone is) -- we're simply opening up a dialogue on the subject. And dialogue, in my opinion, is always a good thing.

And even though I make jokes from time to time, I don't want to come across like I'm belittling anyone's beliefs. I have a great deal of respect for anyone who maintains their faith in the midst of this weary world (well, ok, "anyone" doesn't really cover followers of Xenu, but that's a different story ;) ).

My only wish is that more people would realize that homosexuality (or the "practicing" of it) is not an abomination or a sin, and that the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" stance is as damaging as anything.

One of my favorite sites, that I encourage everyone to visit, is Religious Tolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/index.htm). It doesn't bash any religious community for their beliefs, and it's not out to cause conflict and division. Its purpose is to enlighten and, just as the name says, foster religious tolerance.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I've found the best response to the ol' "Adam & Steve" crap. When someone brings it up, I always add, "yes, but don't forget that Adam & Eve only had two sons -- so who in that family slept with whom in order to propagate?"

Incest shuts 'em up everytime. :D

:lol:

Funny.. that is exactly what I say too! Of course I know better.. after Adam and Eve were sent away from the garden to live on earth, as we know it.. the bible never says that they were then the only ones who existed. When Cain became an outlaw after killing his brother he ran away and it says he found a wife.. so obviously there were other tribes and human beings by this point.

[Johnny Stew]

Well, that is not exaclty the whole of it....No, it's definitely a simplification on my part, but it causes people to stop and think -- where did everyone else "suddenly" come from.

[DrummerDeanna]

Absolutely. And I hope Sahara understands that we're not trying to attack her for her beliefs (at least I don't believe anyone is) -- we're simply opening up a dialogue on the subject. And dialogue, in my opinion, is always a good thing.

And even though I make jokes from time to time, I don't want to come across like I'm belittling anyone's beliefs. I have a great deal of respect for anyone who maintains their faith in the midst of this weary world (well, ok, "anyone" doesn't really cover followers of Xenu, but that's a different story ;) ).

My only wish is that more people would realize that homosexuality (or the "practicing" of it) is not an abomination or a sin, and that the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" stance is as damaging as anything.

One of my favorite sites, that I encourage everyone to visit, is Religious Tolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/index.htm). It doesn't bash any religious community for their beliefs, and it's not out to cause conflict and division. Its purpose is to enlighten and, just as the name says, foster religious tolerance.


Right...ditto that!

Also - I didn't realize Sahara was only 16 ...I generally assume others on here are older - heh...

My intent was most definitely not to attack - although I kind of felt like that's where things were heading - and it is very easy to feel attacked on here because there are several like-minded people...I've learned that lesson!

So Sahara - really nothing personal...:o

[strandinthewind]

:lol:

Funny.. that is exactly what I say too! Of course I know better.. after Adam and Eve were sent away from the garden to live on earth, as we know it.. the bible never says that they were then the only ones who existed. When Cain became an outlaw after killing his brother he ran away and it says he found a wife.. so obviously there were other tribes and human beings by this point.


Interesting point. However, I think that it is incorrect because God went to great lengths to care for Adam and Eve and told them to be fruitful and multiply. So, I am pretty sure it was just them.

Also, many scholars question the omnipotence of God here when God has to question Eve. If God is all knowing and seeing, then He already knew, etc.

Genesis is IMO the most fascinating book in the OT.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Interesting point. However, I think that it is incorrect because God went to great lengths to care for Adam and Eve and told them to be fruitful and multiply. So, I am pretty sure it was just them.

I have no doubt it was just them while in the garden.. but after they were punished and sent to live on earth it is possible that others could have been created by God.. the only clue we really have to that is what I spoke of above when Cain ran away and found a wife.

Also, many scholars question the omnipotence of God here when God has to question Eve. If God is all knowing and seeing, then He already knew, etc.

Who said he didn't already know? Looking at the way he questions her.. it seems that he already knew.. but was looking for honesty from her.. a chance for her to come clean, if you will..

Genesis is IMO the most fascinating book in the OT.

I totally agree.. a very very interesting book. Most of the other OT books are quite long and full of old laws..

Ruth is pretty good however.. and I'm a sucker for any Pslam.. and Song of Songs is quite pornographic! :)

[strandinthewind]

I think the fact that Genesis goes into detail about exactly what God created and how and when He did it negates that other humans existed outside of Eden. Though, it could be argued that Adam and Eve were not human, but perfection, until Eve caused them to fall from grace and gain knowledge. In any event, God certainly could have created more people after they left Eden. It is just not in The Bible that he did so.

[amber]

That reminds me ... I just saw An Inconvenient Truth last night. Scary stuff. Clearly you & Al Gore are unfamiliar with the Twelfth Commandment: Thou Shalt Drive A Hummer, For It Be The Manifestation Of God's Beauty On Earth.
:laugh: :laugh:

Hey, let's remember Sahara is just 16 and has been brought up in a strict religious atmosphere (because that's what Ireland is like). This is stuff she's been taught to believe all her life. She seems like a nice person and may well change her mind about these things.

I didn't forget, Trackie. Yes, Sahara is nice.

[skcin]

I have no doubt it was just them while in the garden.. but after they were punished and sent to live on earth it is possible that others could have been created by God.. the only clue we really have to that is what I spoke of above when Cain ran away and found a wife.




So:

1 - What made A&E so special that they got all that attention in the bible? If there were other human beings roaming around? I'm not being sarcastic, I want to know your thoughts on that.

2 - I guess it's also possible that some of those others who may have been created by God were big old flaming 'mo's! :lol:

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly, God did not wed Adam and Eve but told them to be fruitful and multiply - sex out of wedlock sanctioned by God or the mere fact that God said it made them married?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

So:

1 - What made A&E so special that they got all that attention in the bible? If there were other human beings roaming around? I'm not being sarcastic, I want to know your thoughts on that.

2 - I guess it's also possible that some of those others who may have been created by God were big old flaming 'mo's! :lol:


Well the bible doesn't really contain every single detail of the history it covers.. there is no way it could.. it would be endless, i believe it just covers what was thought of as most important.

All I know is that Cain got to ANOTHER town and ran into OTHER people and found a WIFE.. how else can one explain that?

Then again, I'm a Catholic and don't thump the bible like protestants.. i believe it is the word of God.. but not the ONLY word of God..

I'll do some research tonight online about this topic..

[skcin]

Well the bible doesn't really contain every single detail of the history it covers.. there is no way it could.. it would be endless, i believe it just covers what was thought of as most important.

All I know is that Cain got to ANOTHER town and ran into OTHER people and found a WIFE.. how else can one explain that?

Then again, I'm a Catholic and don't thump the bible like protestants.. i believe it is the word of God.. but not the ONLY word of God..

I'll do some research tonight online about this topic..

That's interesting, about the "not the only word of God." And it's funny, but around my area, it's the Catholics that are the bible thumpers. :lol:

And Brandon, I have to say, I don't know if you're getting a bit older or opening your mind to new ideas or whatever, but your posts have been much more intelligent and mature out as of late. :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

. . . And Brandon, I have to say, I don't know if you're getting a bit older or opening your mind to new ideas or whatever, but your posts have been much more intelligent and mature out as of late. :thumbsup:


Sounds like a certain someone has a BF :nod:

[The Tower]

Sounds like a certain someone has a BF :nod:
Didn't I tell you that I moved to North Carolina???

[strandinthewind]

Didn't I tell you that I moved to North Carolina???

Lord Child - that poor boy!!!!!!!!!!

[foxyluva]

Genesis (KJV)

1.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God created the earth in the dark!!!??? :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

God created the earth in the dark!!!??? :laugh:

Pretty impressive, huh? :laugh:

[foxyluva]

Pretty impressive, huh? :laugh:

Amazing :rolleyes: :laugh: And people wonder why I don't believe in the Bible...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Amazing :rolleyes: :laugh: And people wonder why I don't believe in the Bible...

Because of something as simple as that..

Sometimes I'm amazed at just how strong my faith is.. even when I think it is pretty small..

;) (of course)

[foxyluva]

Because of something as simple as that..

Sometimes I'm amazed at just how strong my faith is.. even when I think it is pretty small..

;) (of course)

Not just becuase of that, that is just one of many inconsistancies - but I do have a strong belief in God, I just don't believe everything in the Bible, after all, it was written by man....

[becca]

being homosexual isn't the problem, it's the sexual act that is.


This makes sense in the context of the Catholic church. I'm sorry I used the word nitwits, I was getting self-righteous there and not paying attention. Everyone else has made some great points and I have been educated myself here. I wish these doctrines against specific sexual acts would be presented as politely as Sahara has done so, and not be the backdrop and feeder for violent or basically hysetrical people.

I have talked to a few practicing Catholics about the role of celibacy in their priesthood ad have gotten the answer that it is important so their devotion is not divided, that it be squarely upon God and his children as being the preist's family, and if he had married and a family of his own that would distract and detract. However the introduction of celibacy into Catholicism was initiated more for worldy concerns about the church inheriting land and property rather than relatives. Sadly too they put great pressure upon priests to reconsider if they express interest in marrying and thus leaving the priesthod and are somewhat shunned when they do even though there should be nothing against marriage you wouldn't think.

Please excuse my typing, I have a new smaller keyboard and am trying to get used to it.