Derriere garde? Lindsey?

[Forshorn]

Fans and commentators often seem to refer to Lindsey's contributions to FM and his solo work as "avant garde." Honestly, reviewing his work, I don't get this. He is firmly interested in pop, so he's hardly in the "arty" category. He seems to try to find interesting new ways of writing hooks and pop textures. Not complaining - I love that sort of thing; I believe it's called "power pop."

There are some moments on "Tusk" that are a bit like Van Morrison's "Astral Weeks" (anyone know this) musically, 'cause the main melody and the background are sort of out of key with some random notes going on back there, creating a diffuse atmosphere. Is that avant garde? 'Cause a simple pop song like "Countdown" or "Soul Drifter" isn't. Beach Boys-like arrangements like "Surrender the Rain" are not avant garde. The Beach Boys were as commercial as they come.

Can anyone explain?:confused:

[amber]

I can't explain, because I totally agree with you. :shrug: Someone will explain, though. And might I add, that was very well put. At the outside I would call him "unusual within pop constructs". It is fabulous, though.

[Sahara]

... But any thread on the Lindsey forum with the word "derriere" in the title has got to be worth looking into. :laugh:

[trackaghost]

I agree with you Forshorn. We need Gaius to come out of hiding because I'm pretty sure he would argue why he thinks Lindsey can be avant garde and experimental.

[Jyqm]

At the outside I would call him "unusual within pop constructs".

What Amber said. Any "experimenting" Lindsey has ever done has always been firmly rooted in a mainstream pop/rock context. So while he may be a rare bird in the pop world, he's far from avant garde. I don't think he's ever done anything nearly so "out there" as to earn him that title.

[mylittledemon]

I agree with Chili's thoughts on the subject. Everything Lindsey has done SINCE Tusk has been an extension of that. He's not really done anything "new." Granted, his studio craft has become a little more refined and but that's about it.

[David]

What Amber said. Any "experimenting" Lindsey has ever done has always been firmly rooted in a mainstream pop/rock context.I disagree. I say he has arranged & recorded songs in nonmainstream ways. His concepts used to be novel, & his execution often followed suit.

But, Forshorn, this may just be a case of alternative definitions: you peg him for activity I peg him for, too, but you categorize such activity as "power pop."

[David]

I agree with Chili's thoughts on the subject. Everything Lindsey has done SINCE Tusk has been an extension of that.His attempt to reinvigorate the parameters of the "well-made" pop song in the established vein of the 1940s--with "Soul Drifter," for example--doesn't really extend some specific agenda on "Tusk." But it obviously was something that Lindsey had been thinking about for a long time--possibly since the time in the 1970s when he inherited his dad's collection of 45s.

And as far as extending the reconceptualizing of the recording medium on "Tusk": I would say he neither started with "Tusk" nor ended with it, but "Tusk" certainly was the biggest single leap in that direction in the annals of Lindsey's career.

[Forshorn]

A song like "Soul Drifter" might look back to the golden age of Gershwin-like pop standards, but that's more a sort of classicism than innovation. "Soul Drifter" does build very nicely, gaining momentum with a gentle swing - sort of like an old standard from a '30s musical?

I listen to "Tusk" while running on headphones these days, along with the '80s FM albums. One thing that's great about Lindsey's production on Tusk is the very subtle touches, like vocals on "Sara" mixed so far down you can barely hear them - but you do hear them. While on "Rumours" he was definitely arranging songs to make the hooks hit home (and GYOW is the best example of this, with those added guitar chords slowing the momentum in the verses so that the chorus really kicks). On "Tusk" it seems like he was doing the opposite, messing with the song structure in a way that made the songs more ambient. And the song "Tusk" is almost all atmosphere and texture, very little song. :blob1:

[deribish]

Have any of you ever listened to the Go Insane album? The later half of that album is anything but mainstream...and it gets quite far from power pop. It's definitely 'avante garde' in the limited parameters rock-and-roll. Quite different, and sometimes even jarring.

[chiliD]

Have any of you ever listened to the Go Insane album? The later half of that album is anything but mainstream...and it gets quite far from power pop. It's definitely 'avante garde' in the limited parameters rock-and-roll. Quite different, and sometimes even jarring.

"Non-mainstream" does NOT necessarily equal "avant-garde". In reference to Lindsey, it's just damned "quirky".

The Beatles' "Revolution #9" is avant-garde. Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music" is avant-garde. There is nothing REMOTELY "avant-garde" about anything Lindsey has let the public hear...not even the leaked material we now generically call Gift Of Screws. If he truly HAS recorded "avant-garde" material, I'd LOVE to hear it.

[Jyqm]

"Non-mainstream" does NOT necessarily equal "avant-garde". In reference to Lindsey, it's just damned "quirky".

The Beatles' "Revolution #9" is avant-garde. Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music" is avant-garde. There is nothing REMOTELY "avant-garde" about anything Lindsey has let the public hear...not even the leaked material we now generically call Gift Of Screws. If he truly HAS recorded "avant-garde" material, I'd LOVE to hear it.

What Steve said. Also, it might be good to note that Lindsey not being avant garde is not necessarily a bad thing. Just look at Mr. D's two examples of what earns the label...

[David]

You guys would need to define avant-garde. What does it mean with respect to these musics? You can't just willy-nilly wave your wand & presto! this is a-g, or bango! this is not a-g. For example, are Beethoven's final five string quartets a-g? If so, in relation to what (since all these terms must ultimately be relative)?

Define your terms, boys.

[Forshorn]

As long as we're talking about Beethoven, proving that FM fans are a sophisticated bunch, I would say Beethoven's last 5 string quartets are indeed avant garde. Why? Well, I guess the movement away from melody and towards atonality, the dirge-like "grosse fugue" (in the C major?), would be considered avant garde even now. 'Cause they mess with the strongest expectation of music - that it provide us with pleasing melody (hooks) and a sort of clear storyline. In other words, they change the form somewhat?

Does Lindsey do this? Maybe in a sorta mild way, 'cause he mixes up different styles, from the '50s and '60s, synthetic and natural sound... forming a surprising mix.

:wavey:

[Chester]

So is the term always going to be relative to what people expect to hear? Or is there an exact, and unchanging way it has to be in order to be called avant-guard? If the term just means "unexpected" then Lindsey sure did some unexpected stuff that took everyone by surprise in 1979. In the context of the Rumours time period, it was avant-guard. In the context of other, already out there stuff, it was tame by comparison. Maybe I'm just stating the obvious.

[Gwillaker]

Fans and commentators often seem to refer to Lindsey's contributions to FM and his solo work as "avant garde." Honestly, reviewing his work, I don't get this. He is firmly interested in pop, so he's hardly in the "arty" category. He seems to try to find interesting new ways of writing hooks and pop textures. Not complaining - I love that sort of thing; I believe it's called "power pop."

There are some moments on "Tusk" that are a bit like Van Morrison's "Astral Weeks" (anyone know this) musically, 'cause the main melody and the background are sort of out of key with some random notes going on back there, creating a diffuse atmosphere. Is that avant garde? 'Cause a simple pop song like "Countdown" or "Soul Drifter" isn't. Beach Boys-like arrangements like "Surrender the Rain" are not avant garde. The Beach Boys were as commercial as they come.

Can anyone explain?:confused:
Strange. I reckon anybody who thinks Lindsey's music is "avant garde" should check out Captain Beefheart, then they'll get some perspective on things. :laugh: Lindsey is anything but "avant garde"! :confused: