9/11 Conspiracy Theory

[Richard B]

Sheen Airs 9/11 Conspiracy Theory

Actor Charlie Sheen refuses to accept the official explanation behind the terrorist atrocities of September 11, 2001, and believes the US government covered up what really happened. Conspiracy theorist Sheen claims New York City's Twin Towers fell as the result of a "controlled demolition." Talking on US radio program The Alex Jones Show on the GGN network, he said, "It seems to me like 19 amateurs with box-cutters taking over four commercial airliners and hitting 75 per cent of their targets, that feels like a conspiracy theory. It raises a lot of questions. A couple of years ago, it was severely unpopular to talk about any of this. It feels like from the people I talk to, and the research I've done and around my circles, it feels like the worm is turning." Sheen also cast doubt over the plane that smashed into the side of the Pentagon in Washington DC. He added, "Just show us how this particular plane pulled off these maneuvers... It is up to us to reveal the truth. It is up to us because we owe it to the families, we owe it to the victims, we owe it to everyone's life who was drastically altered, horrifically, that day and forever. We owe it to them to uncover what happened."



Not that Charlie Sheen is any more special then anyone else and it is his belief and opinion, but do any of you here tend to think 9/11 wasn't exactly what was told to us?

Don't worry, no one will think you're a subversive.

[Livia]

That's an interesting point about the twin towers - they did IMplode, rather than EXplode.

[jannieC]

My husband has serious thoughts about this. He read a book (and saw a documentary related to the book) about it and has been convinced ever since. I'll find out the name of the book later.

[johndoe]

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Preloader

This videos been circling around the interweb for a few years. Its creepy, but I don't know if I totally belive it. If the quotes in it were from magazines and newspapers, wouldn't you think there would have been stories about this theory?

[estranged4life]

, a conspiracy to write more books in lew (sp) of money.

I don't worry about 911 conspiracies as I do about those involving the April 19,1995 Murrah bombing in OKC (My new attorney's office overlooks part of the Murrah site in downtown OKC...A daily reminder for those in his law office who happen to remember than day.)

I have watched the "A Call to Reopen the Sept.11 Investigation" DVD (Courtesy of reopen911.org) and most of what is shown seems very plausible, But at the some time some things seem rather "Wishful thinking"....But isnt that what makes "conspiracies" so interesting?

[DavidMn]

I just dont think that's the way it happend like Charlie Sheen says. Sometimes these actors should keep their mouth shut I think.

[wondergirl9847]

Thanks for that link. I've seen similar videos, but not that particular one. Very interesting stuff. I am SO a conspiracy theorist...I used to watch The X-Files. :laugh:

Trust No One.

[irishgrl]

I just dont think that's the way it happend like Charlie Sheen says. Sometimes these actors should keep their mouth shut I think.
I disagree my dear....I can VERY much see this being a dark plot by the neocons to jump start their agenda. Ive got that CD from that site, (www.reopen911.org dont click on it, its not working for some reason!) and I appreciate the guts that Charlie Sheen is showing by speaking out. I especially appreciate him speaking out because he is a celebrity and people pay attention to celebrities.....Good for him I say...

ok, I was going to post the link so people could get their own free DVD, but I think its closed. instead, here is an affiliated link that has quite a bit of resources including downloads etc
Scholars for 911 Truth (http://st911.org/)

[madformac]

Some conspiracy theories I tend to believe, others I don't.

Kennedy, sure. The Warren commission report had more holes than a string vest.

Diana? No doubt for me, the woman was out of control and that was the result. Unfortunately I mentioned this was going to happen 3 months before it did and everybody thought I was nuts, I even said it would be a car crash to look legitimate... There you go..

This one is rubbish IMO. The buildings didn't implode or get demolished, the only thing to dispute this is that the clean up team was allegedly in place two days before the event... They fell exactly as they were designed to do in a catastrophic situations. They collapsed on their own footprint. If you look at the designs and blueprints of those buildings modern skyscraper architects will tell you they were flawed. There was a documentary here in the UK solely on the design and its flaws. The emergency stairs were all in the same areas of the buildings and not in, say, the four corners to give alternative routes meaning those above the impact were trapped with no escape.

The buildings were designed to withstand an impact from a plane but not the heat of the fuel burning. The iron structure should have been sprayed with a special fire resistant foam. As I recall there were issues in this area and the framework basically melted. I'm amazed they stayed intact for as long as they did and a lot of people owe their lives to that fact.

Now if you are asking me who did it and who green lighted this attack then there are many arguements. Who is to gain? Who benefits the most? Who gets the publicity? There's an arguement it was government lead, it's entirely concievable, there's the Al Qaeda theory which is the one that is most believed then there are others too. There's more than just a few radical muslim factions that wanna hurt the USA and its economy too.. I have no idea who did it. The only thing I believe is it wouldn't have happened on Clinton's watch.

[irishgrl]

Some conspiracy theories I tend to believe, others I don't.

Kennedy, sure. The Warren commission report had more holes than a string vest.

Diana? No doubt for me, the woman was out of control and that was the result. Unfortunately I mentioned this was going to happen 3 months before it did and everybody thought I was nuts, I even said it would be a car crash to look legitimate... There you go..

This one is rubbish IMO. The buildings didn't implode or get demolished, the only thing to dispute this is that the clean up team was allegedly in place two days before the event... They fell exactly as they were designed to do in a catastrophic situations. They collapsed on their own footprint. If you look at the designs and blueprints of those buildings modern skyscraper architects will tell you they were flawed. There was a documentary here in the UK solely on the design and its flaws. The emergency stairs were all in the same areas of the buildings and not in, say, the four corners to give alternative routes meaning those above the impact were trapped with no escape.

The buildings were designed to withstand an impact from a plane but not the heat of the fuel burning. The iron structure should have been sprayed with a special fire resistant foam. As I recall there were issues in this area and the framework basically melted. I'm amazed they stayed intact for as long as they did and a lot of people owe their lives to that fact.

Now if you are asking me who did it and who green lighted this attack then there are many arguements. Who is to gain? Who benefits the most? Who gets the publicity? There's an arguement it was government lead, it's entirely concievable, there's the Al Qaeda theory which is the one that is most believed then there are others too. There's more than just a few radical muslim factions that wanna hurt the USA and its economy too.. I have no idea who did it. The only thing I believe is it wouldn't have happened on Clinton's watch.


oh YE of LITTLE FAITH LOL!

I can burn you a copy of my DVD (I think) because in this case I think you are w.r.o.n.g. sorry. The strongest evidence for me was the size of the alleged hole. From what Ive seen, the "hole" should have been larger considering we're talking about a jumbo jet...there are other issues too......

Im not much of a conspiracy theorist, but in Diana's case and the re: Twin Towers, Im sorry, but I think there is more than meets the eye.

PS: if you want a copy of my DVD (assuming I can burn one for you), you will need to provide the blank.

The only thing I believe is it wouldn't have happened on Clinton's watch.
well, it almost did.............we got lucky.
but I think that Clinton would have handled things much better than Monkey Boy, I think that goes without saying.....

[wondergirl9847]

The '93 bombings of the WTC happened on Clinton's watch....as did OKC.

[dreamongypsydkm]

I just dont think that's the way it happend like Charlie Sheen says. Sometimes these actors should keep their mouth shut I think.People shouldn't be told to keep their mouth shut, particularly in regards to such important matters. I was just reading a quote in which Hitler was talking about people just like you

In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted …they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie… It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

It's not just crazy people, Professor David Griffin makes excellent points, you should take these people into consideration.

The buildings were designed to withstand an impact from a plane but not the heat of the fuel burning.The Scholars for 9/11 Truth noted that steel melts at a temperature higher than that which fire caused by jet fuel can even reach.

What confuses me is the change of command for scrambling jets in June of 2001 to leave the Secretary of Defense as the only person able to prevent attacks. He who was about the only person in the world not informed in the 52 minutes notice they had, he who was in a meeting at the Pentagon itself was unable to command the interception. The Secretary of Transportation's testimony of him directly commanding an interception not to take place was left out of the Commission Report. I don't know what I believe but it's not implausible at all, Hitler's statement rings so true and people should not be accused of being crazy, it feeds fascism.

[irishgrl]

thank you for pointing out info from a site I posted/
I realize that not everyone wil accept this info but it should be OUT THERE.

[dissention]

The Scholars for 9/11 Truth noted that steel melts at a temperature higher than that which fire caused by jet fuel can even reach.


Precisely. So, having that in mind, why were partially evaporated steel members and molten steel found in the debris of WTC 7? Because it was demolished. Burning diesel can't melt steel. Larry Silverstein, the man who ran that particular complex, even told PBS that it was demolished by both him and the FDNY the afternoon of 9/11. Isn't it odd that WTC 7 fell at freefall speed when the fires in the building were practically minimal and not evenly distributed enough to make it collapse like that? The official story is WTC 1's collapse started the fires in WTC 7, fires which caused WTC 7 to collapse, so how could they have had time, especially amongst all of the chaos, to rig it so perfectly and demolish it in a matter of a few hours? A building cannot be rigged for demolition like that in such a short period of time, it had to have been done beforehand.

[ryan8472]

Joooosssshhhhhh! :D

I for one am rather intrigued by this kind of ****. Scary and sick as it is.

[dreamongypsydkm]

Along with numerous others' Professor David Griffin's speech and research (http://youtube.com/watch?v=W9EPzzSOkNg&search=9/11%20911%209-11%20september%2011%209/11/01%20stephen%20jones%20david%20ray%20griffin%20jeff%20king%20revisited%20911revisited%20tribute%20wt c%20wtc7) gives me the chills. To take into account the fires he mentions such a Madrid and see that steel frame structure standing, that doesn't yet go so far as to suggest who is responsible (other sections of his research go into that) but in so far as how the building collapsed regardless of who did it, well it is almost impossible that it was not controlled demolition. To imagine that WTC 7 collapsed because of two fires on seperate floors is seemingly impossible. The other most peculiar aspect is the rate of the fall of all 3 buildings, the structures fell as the same rate as the debri and common physics would tell you that free falling objects fall at greater speed than obstructed objects, which the towers would have been had it not been controlled demolition. They fell at free fall speed and central steel beams disappeared, not only that, it was denied they were even there to begin with. David Griffin explains it far better than I could...it freaks me out because we're fed one theory so predominantly that it becomes tunnel vision but the evidence pointing to other theories is so overwhelming. These aren't crazy ideas and I go back to that statement of Hitler's.

[estranged4life]

The '93 bombings of the WTC happened on Clinton's watch....as did OKC.

at how Bill Clinton told then Oklahoma governor Frank Keating on April 19,1995 "We will get the Muslim terrorists who are responsible" for the Murrah Building Bombing, But then later that day what was said was due "lack of communication"...Kinda odd that memos were sent to 'some' Federal employees just days before April 19,1995 stating that there is "credible info on a possible terrorist attack" coming on April 19 (The memo said something along the lines of "if at possible avoid being at your place of employment the morning of April 19th"), but yet noone ever tipped off those inside the Murrah Building (Though a Federal Judge in OKC kept his memo as proof this did indeed occur, Considering the OKC Federal Court building is across the street from the Murrah Building...Neither the US government nor the State of Oklahoma ever called this judge to testify about this notice, So he went public on the local TV stations.)

Interesting...It was never explained during Terry Nichols vs. the State of Oklahoma trial why so many eye witnesses saw Tim McVeigh in the passenger seat of the Ryder truck in downtown OKC while a person of "olive color skinned" was behind the wheel of the same Ryder truck (The drawing of John Doe #2 is too errie similar to known "Enemy Combatant Jose Padilla", I mean I believe in coincidences and all, But ****!!! Seems really freaky...And when the public first became familiar with Jose Padilla EVERYONE in OKC freaked!!! Oh, for ya conspiracy buffs, Terry Nichols ex-wife Lana's maiden name is Padilla :eek: )

I remember clearly hearing the APB call on April 19 over the local TV airways to be on the lookout for several "Muslim looking men" seen leaving a parking lot near the Journal Records Building immediately after the bombing. No clue as to who those persons were has ever been made public (Even though there were 100+ credible witnesses who saw those guys leaving downtown OKC in a Brown Ford F-150 at a high rate of speed...Getting from downtown OKC to either I-40 or I-35 takes only about 3-4 minutes and then you have clear sailing in any direction.)

McVeigh's death sentence took any possible info on others with him...Remember, McVeigh did not fight his death sentence, He took his pending death as that of a "martyr"...Nichols acknowledges his part, but is very "vague" and says there was "no others" who participated besides McVeigh & Michael Fortier. I just cant grasped that McVeigh & Nichols (Fortier had "knowledge only of what Tim & Terry were planning...I didnt believe they were serious at all") alone did orchestrate an act that caused that much damage.

Another interesting conspiracy is that Terry Nichols stayed at the same hotel as 911 hijacker/mastermind Atta in the Phillipines in early 1995 (Supposedly on the same exact day)...The US government said that was an coincidence, But it is a known fact that the Phillipines is a haven for terrorists and could Nichols have been there meeting with those known terror cells to learn their trick of the trade in how to topple a building with a fertlizer bomb? Could Nichols have been plotting with Atta? Who knows...Nichols said he was there "looking for a new mail order bride".

Oh, this isnt a conspiracy, this is indeed an interesting fact...Used to be that every year at the Myriad Convention Center in downtown OKC there would be the largest convention that gathered Muslims from around the US and even outside the US, And this convention would consist of alot of "sabre rattling" and how the Muslims of the world can kill those who oppress them. They would publicly at these conventions talk about how to spread their reig of terror around the world. I remember being sickened when I saw a reporter detail these going ons when he sneaked inside this convention with a hidden camera & a wire and record what was going on...Those inside would have been OBL's wet-dream. I wished I remembered the reporters name, But I do recall seeing part of his expose recently on "Discovery Times Channel" during a broadcast relating to 9-11.

Another odd tidbit, Is that the 20th 911 hi-jacker Moussaoui learned his flying at a local air school in Norman, OK...Recently the local newscasts have showed that his former college roommate (From OU) testified against Moussaoui at his trial in exchange for "total immunity from being prosecuted".

Oh, one more thing...Did you hear about this student from OU, this past late summer/early fall, Who blew himself up across from the football stadium (During the OU/Kansas State game no less...The stadium was sold out with 78,000+ fans) with a homemade bomb? Some thought he was going to head to the game and detonate the device, but instead if misfired...The local officials thought it was a possible suicide, but his students Father said his son wasnt unhappy/depressed since he just converted to being a Muslim (And I know that not all Muslims are terrorists so I'm not judging anyone, So dont start with me ok? :thumbsup: )...Weird **** if you ask me.

Ah, conspiracies...Interesting crap!!!

[strandinthewind]

The '93 bombings of the WTC happened on Clinton's watch....as did OKC.

Yes, but 9/11 happened under W's watch and those same people so willing to point the finger at Clinton are absent in the finger pointing at W for his failure. I mean what is good for the goose . . . . :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Precisely. So, having that in mind, why were partially evaporated steel members and molten steel found in the debris of WTC 7? Because it was demolished. Burning diesel can't melt steel. Larry Silverstein, the man who ran that particular complex, even told PBS that it was demolished by both him and the FDNY the afternoon of 9/11. Isn't it odd that WTC 7 fell at freefall speed when the fires in the building were practically minimal and not evenly distributed enough to make it collapse like that? The official story is WTC 1's collapse started the fires in WTC 7, fires which caused WTC 7 to collapse, so how could they have had time, especially amongst all of the chaos, to rig it so perfectly and demolish it in a matter of a few hours? A building cannot be rigged for demolition like that in such a short period of time, it had to have been done beforehand.

But, the planes hit that building :shrug: And - every credible expert,including the man who designed the building, says the jet fuel conbined with the weakening force of the impact caused the jarred internal supports to melt and fail. I mean I am all for the US through its policies caused 9/11, but to say the WTC had sone sort of nepharious internal conbustion other than the jets is off my radar?

On edit - I would put nothing past the Bush II administration - in fact I despise them.

Also - I adore you

[dreamongypsydkm]

But, the planes hit that building :shrug: And - every credible expert,including the man who designed the building, says the jet fuel conbined with the weakening force of the impact caused the jarred internal supports to melt and fail. I mean I am all for the US through its policies caused 9/11, but to say the WTC had sone sort of nepharious internal conbustion other than the jets is off my radar?Firstly, it's not far fetched at all. There are numerous points which are peculiar to say the least. The free fall rate of the structure is one. Secondly, planes hit WTC 7? It was claimed to have fallen due to two fires on different levels, 47 storeys of building collapsing.

Seriously, we've been fed one theory from the beginning and anything different seems like a crazy conspiracy, they're not crazy, they're very plausible (actually far more plausible than the original theory, or conspiracy I'd say). Try to watch some of the video I linked to before, there is are some points that should be taken seriuosly, theories that are not crazy, and if people who question what happened are automatically considered lunatics then that reflects more on those who label them.

[madformac]

But, the planes hit that building :shrug: And - every credible expert,including the man who designed the building, says the jet fuel conbined with the weakening force of the impact caused the jarred internal supports to melt and fail. I mean I am all for the US through its policies caused 9/11, but to say the WTC had sone sort of nepharious internal conbustion other than the jets is off my radar?

On edit - I would put nothing past the Bush II administration - in fact I despise them.


I would have to agree with that statement. I don't believe a "conspiracy" in the way the building came down. It's physics and chemistry. The Pentagon "aircrash" is bull****. Never believed that myself. No chance of it happening. You can see from the debris and impact zone it's just not the case. Add to that the only footage of impact, which was dodgy at best, especially the "impact" which was missed by the camera. :rolleyes:

I would think it's very possible there is government involvement. You are gonna get issues like this every few decades. It's a business issue. The US defense business is massive. Several high profile companies need an excuse for business, basically war. War is the best business model there is. You can argue one of the benefits of Kennedy's assasination was full scale involvement in Vietnam after Johnson's go ahead and the prosperity of certain companies as a result. If the US economy needs an industrial or job boost then just go out and make a war.

Certainly an attack on America would promote a reaction towards whoever provoked it. Al Qaeda, Afanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, or North Korea. One or more of them. Hell tie them all into the "war on terror" and you get public authorisation to go out and create wars in the name of "Good" or indeed "God". I think it's very likely that there was government involvement.

I personally don't believe Bush knew about it until it happened. The guy is a fool, an idiot and a figurehead. You only need to look at his reaction in that Florida school. He didn't know what to do and was herded out eventually insead of making a decision. It's entirely possible the Secretary Of Defense knew and indeed the Joint Chiefs Of Staff too. But, they needed his authorisation to proceed with a war. This whole conspiracy may have been aimed purely at him in order to sign off a war on "terror"

What this attack did was give the USA unlimited excuses to attack "threats" to its interests. It does seem very convenient doesn't it? America cannot live without oil and if you need something to survive you are gonna do whatever to get it.

The trouble is, and I'm not being anti-American here. America is just no good at fighting wars. They have the best equipment in the world and the biggest war budgets but they can't fight. Probably because in some cases (Iraq and Vietnam) the soldiers have no idea why they are there. If you look at the wars they have been involved in they just can't win. All style and no content. So even with unlimited resources and power they can't beat those adversaries that have a reason to fight. People fighting against American takeover of their countries.

Many countries hate the US and its policies because they can see through the excuses. I'm sure a lot of Americans overseas have been treated less than properly, especially tourists.

Don't blame these people, they don't know any better. America has an empire right now and they are hated as a result. Don't worry though. Like the British, we were hated throughout the world when we had an empire, as were the Romans. When you lose it everybody loves you again. China will find that out too eventually. :wavey:

[irishgrl]

But, the planes hit that building :shrug: And - every credible expert,including the man who designed the building, says the jet fuel conbined with the weakening force of the impact caused the jarred internal supports to melt and fail. I mean I am all for the US through its policies caused 9/11, but to say the WTC had sone sort of nepharious internal conbustion other than the jets is off my radar?

On edit - I would put nothing past the Bush II administration - in fact I despise them.

Also - I adore you

I seem to recall a program on this issue (PBS I think) where a demolition expert said the buildings fell precisely as they would if they were rigged with dynamite. if you placed explosives at key stress points (and the experts would know where) and remove the internal bracing, the building would collapse in a spectacular fashion as we have seen. Maybe someone was hired to do the dirty deed and then made to disappear?

I dont know what Bush knew about WTC or when he knew it because lets face it, madformac is right, Monkey Boy is a bumbler. Having said that, however, I can firmly believe he would embrace ANYTHING that would advance his agenda to get his hands on Iraq's oil. So, as I said before, I can very easily believe the neocons concocting this dastardly plot to jumpstart their nefarious agenda...seemingly with public support because now, the dirty bastids DARED to attack Americans on home soil....oh very clever plot indeed....

there is an artricle by David Ray Griffin Why the Official Account cant be True and James E. Jones Why indeed did WTC buildings collapse? you can access by going here (http://st911.org/)

[dissention]

But, the planes hit that building :shrug:

No plane ever hit WTC 7.


The '93 bombings of the WTC happened on Clinton's watch....

The 1993 bombings took place on February 26, 1993. Clinton had been in office for four weeks.

[dissention]

I seem to recall a program on this issue (PBS I think) where a demolition expert said the buildings fell precisely as they would if they were rigged with dynamite. if you placed explosives at key stress points (and the experts would know where) and remove the internal bracing, the building would collapse in a spectacular fashion as we have seen. Maybe someone was hired to do the dirty deed and then made to disappear?

WTC 7 collapsed perfectly and fell at freefall speed. The uneven fires in the building could not have caused that to happen to a 47-story building like that, let alone a fire-protected steel building; one would have to be an incredible fool to believe that it collapsed due to those fires. Larry Silverstein says it didn't; he says it was demolished. I believe him, but I also believe it was rigged with explosives before 9/11. There's no way they would have had the time to pull off such an incredible controlled demolition in such a short period of time.

[madformac]

The 1993 bombings took place on February 26, 1993. Clinton had been in office for four weeks.

Yes thats correct. You have to assume that whoever bombed the WTC in '93 knew one of two things. 1) the explosion in 1993 was not anywhere near enough to bring down the building and was more than likely a politically motivated issue possibly to destabilize the new government and maybe even to push Clinton into a "war on terror" against Al Qaeda, with this not being the case and Clinton resisting the urge for all out war it is concievable the same trick was pulled early in George W Bush's term but making sure the result was much larger, and of course with the increased stupidity of George Jr. Think about the timing of both bombings. Both within 8 months of election and both on the same landmark of American trade and democracy.

or 2) If it really was Al Qaeda then it would have been planned with the feeling Bush Snr was going to get a second term. I don't buy this theory because they would have pulled the attack. I just get a feeling Clinton was not seen as a "war president" or a man more interested in his own ideals than world affairs. W's daddy is a clever man. He's a "made man" within the intelligence community and knew exactly what he was doing. Jnr is an idiot and Daddy and his cronies still run the White House IMHO.

[David]

WTC 7 collapsed perfectly and fell at freefall speed. The uneven fires in the building could not have caused that to happen to a 47-story building like that, let alone a fire-protected steel building; one would have to be an incredible fool to believe that it collapsed due to those fires. Larry Silverstein says it didn't; he says it was demolished. I believe him, but I also believe it was rigged with explosives before 9/11. There's no way they would have had the time to pull off such an incredible controlled demolition in such a short period of time.This is freaky & weird, diss. All those people ... sacrificed, possibly, for the War Lord.

This is like a scenario out of an old Kurosawa movie, in which the Bushido code has been violated.

We would need plenty of engineers & physicists to come to a widely accepted conclusion as to the exact effect gravitational acceleration had on the building collapses.

How wild!! To think that our administration, crooked as they are, would have murdered thousands for political objectives! This is Machiavellian--like Shakespeare's "Richard III." I think this will be Oliver Stone's next movie.

[David]

WTC 7 collapsed perfectly and fell at freefall speed. What is that? Is that 9.8 meters per second squared (9.8/m/s^2)?

Minus friction, right? What is the friction on that material at that elevation & at that velocity, in mathematical terms?

Oh my god ... this will get the whole crew not only impeached but tried for murder!! :blob2: :blob2: :blob1: :thumbsup:

[estranged4life]

I would have to agree with that statement. I don't believe a "conspiracy" in the way the building came down. It's physics and chemistry. The Pentagon "aircrash" is bull****. Never believed that myself. No chance of it happening. You can see from the debris and impact zone it's just not the case. Add to that the only footage of impact, which was dodgy at best, especially the "impact" which was missed by the camera. :rolleyes:


kinda odd that only 1 camera caught the "impact" of the pentagon...Yet on the DVD of "A Call to Reopen the Sept.11 Investigation" there is shown slow motion footage of what appears to be a "con-trail" of a missle trailing behind the impact of where the airlines jet impacted (In the same exact footage taken by that one lone camera.)


Also, Dont anyone other than me, find it odd that only 1 camera showed the Ryder truck approaching the Murrah Building. That "lone" camera was located down the block inside the Regency Towers highrise apartment building and that camera showed the truck from an angle where you cannot tell who was behind the wheel...Yet during the trial for both McVeigh (Federal) & Nichols (State) their defense both called on the US government to provide video closed circuit footage that showed the Ryder truck exploding, And the US government denied any such footage existed...BUT, the GSA who ran/controlled the Murrah building said they had about 18 cameras which showed all activity in/around the building and several did catch the actual bombing, But yet that footage "mysteriously" dissappearred.

I wonder why it dissappearred? Could it be because a former US Air Force expert in weapon ordinances, Said the "seismic" record of that actual event showed that something larger caused the destruction of the Murrah building.

The seismic record showed 2 large blips that occurred possibly near milli-seconds apart...Indicating that something first exploded, then another explosion occurred immediately afterwards. Even the survivors inside the building stated that they heard/felt a small rumble from the front of the building, which caught their attention then a bigger explosion occurred.

The former US Air Force expert believes some type of missle/"warhead" was fired across the street at the Journal Records Building parking lot (Where the "Survivor Tree" is located) that hit the Ryder truck causing the bigger explosion. The damage to the Journal Records parking lot was absolute, 1 person died there from the damage of the blast.

There was plenty of rescuers who saw men in protective "white suits" walking around the wreckage with "Geiger counters"...Even a decorated OKC police officer saw these men and asked what they were doing, they replied "We work for the FBI, this is none of your concern." This officer even reported this occurrence to his commanding officers who also could not get an answer from the FBI on this event.

Sadly, about a year later this same police officer ended his life with a "self-inflicted wound" in a empty field in a town 20 miles away (Weird that this officer constantly was asking the government about what he saw and the government never gave a clue...And why would a man who was supposed to be on his way home to "spend the day playing video games with his son" suddenly feel the need to end his life?)

Oh, one more morbid tidbit...After the Murrah building remains were imploded, there was a leg recovered in the wreckage (Found inside a camouflaged military style pant leg...It was separated at the hip from whoevers body it belonged to) that has never been traced back to its owner (The OKC M.E. tried tracking the leg to all the dead and injured, and noone had a missing limb that matched the leg that was discovered.).

[gldstwmn]

Oh, one more morbid tidbit...After the Murrah building remains were imploded, there was a leg recovered in the wreckage (Found inside a camouflaged military style pant leg...It was separated at the hip from whoevers body it belonged to) that has never been traced back to its owner (The OKC M.E. tried tracking the leg to all the dead and injured, and noone had a missing limb that matched the leg that was discovered.).

This and the missing video tape (possibly) showing the driver has always bothered me about the OKC bomibing.

[irishgrl]

This is freaky & weird, diss. All those people ... sacrificed, possibly, for the War Lord.

How wild!! To think that our administration, crooked as they are, would have murdered thousands for political objectives! This is Machiavellian--like Shakespeare's "Richard III."

exactamundo. the Neocons dont CARE about sheep lives.

[madformac]

exactamundo. the Neocons dont CARE about sheep lives.

I was tempted to say its up to you guys to vote them out next time but considering the somewhat dubious surroundings with the last two election results that probably won't work either.. :shrug:

[estranged4life]

This and the missing video tape (possibly) showing the driver has always bothered me about the OKC bombing.

of the "real driver" of the Ryder truck (Remember, there were over 100+ credible eyewitnesses who saw McVeigh in the Ryder truck as a passenger and a "olive skinned" man behind the wheel...The government NEVER called a single one of these witnesses to testify in the trials for both McVeigh & Nichols.)

When Jose Padilla was first made known nationally, the eyewitnesses to seeing the driver of the Ryder truck immediately were shocked:

<div align=center><img src="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/we-compare.gif"></div>

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/padillaJD2.html

Even the witnesses at the Ryder Rental store in Kansas said there were sure it was Padilla with McVeigh and not some "caucasian" local soldier that our government said was mistaken for John Doe #2 at the same rental store the same day but he was by himself.

As for the leg, it was never claimed (How does one claim their leg anyways :shrug: ) and it was buried in an "unmarked grave".

[irishgrl]

I was tempted to say its up to you guys to vote them out next time but considering the somewhat dubious surroundings with the last two election results that probably won't work either.. :shrug:

Our country has been co-opted by the Neocons. no detail is too small, and no lie is to big to tell. We've got the evidence that both elections were rigged, but again, nothing is being done. To make matters worse, the Feds have mandated that all elections be electronic, and my County just approved a whole contingent of Diebold machines. I forsee a HUGE switch to absentee votes because I havent heard anything but anger and disgust about this development, no one trusts Diebold. (granted, they are just boxes, but I think the rest of the pieces of the puzzle --programmers, software, vote readers etc are capable of being corrupted AND put in place when the need arises). California has been a blue state and a thorn in the Rethug's side now for some time. The latest foray to influence vote outcomes (retired judges to decide district boundries) failed Thank GAWD! but I dont think thats the last we're going to see of these types of shady underhanded tricks.....

[Nixxxed]

Here's a good site: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wrh_9-11_index.html

Under the "WTC Collapse" link, there is video of the WTC-7 collapse. Plus quotes about Guiliani saying it was a diesel tank explosion, in opposition to a couple of guys who admitted it was purposely demolished with explosives because it was unsafe, in opposition to the official story of the fires from the main WTC collapse causing it. Did you all know that WTC-7 housed IRS records and (I think) certain FBI files related to prominent cases? Plus, that supposedly PCs recovered from the collapse showed hundreds of millions of dollars of illegal financial transactions right before the attack started?

There is also a good page for the Pentagon attack analysis. The guy who runs this page thinks it actually did happen (and has pic evidence posted), and the missile/commuter plane/USAF jet theories were floated to purposely make everyone look like *crazy* conspiracy nuts (as opposed to intelligent, thoughtful conspiracy investigators) and discredit them.

I'm not sure what I actually think - there are too many missing pieces, not to mention overlapping ones. And what if all this conspiracy info is bogus and intended as misdirection (see conspiracy nut comment above). I don't believe we've gotten the actual story, however, and doubt we ever will. Just like any other major scandal that has ever happened in this or any other country.

[estranged4life]

Here's a good site: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wrh_9-11_index.html

Under the "WTC Collapse" link, there is video of the WTC-7 collapse. Plus quotes about Guiliani saying it was a diesel tank explosion, in opposition to a couple of guys who admitted it was purposely demolished with explosives because it was unsafe, in opposition to the official story of the fires from the main WTC collapse causing it. Did you all know that WTC-7 housed IRS records and (I think) certain FBI files related to prominent cases? Plus, that supposedly PCs recovered from the collapse showed hundreds of millions of dollars of illegal financial transactions right before the attack started?


I was going to post some interesting articles from their website n regards to the OKC Bombing, When I saw that you posted info on 911/WTC

Anyways, here is the link to some interesting "seismic" info on OKC:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/ok.html

Oh, speaking of WTC 7, Dont anyone think that with the collapse of WTC 7 that the lease holder of the property would benefit from its demise? Knock it down and make more money off of it through a claim!

[irishgrl]

Here is a really good article that illustrates California's part in this whole elections drama:

Global Eye

Party Hacks

By Chris Floyd
Published: March 3, 2006

Two weeks ago, an obscure, unelected, Republican-appointed official in California decided the future of the world. That future -- at least for the next several years -- will be an accelerating nightmare of war, corruption, repression, atrocity and terror. That's because the loyal apparatchik has, with the stroke of a pen, guaranteed the perpetuation of the Bush faction in power in 2008 and beyond.

One of the few certainties in modern U.S. politics is that no Democrat can win the presidency without carrying California. Thanks to the Electoral College system set up by the Founding Oligarchs to keep the low-born rabble from voting directly for president, the big haul of California's electoral votes is crucial for Democrats to offset the multitude of small, sparsely populated states that reliably vote Republican. Bagging California doesn't guarantee Democratic victory, but without it, the cliffhanger electoral counts in the goosed elections of 2000 and 2004 wouldn't even have been close.


Thus, the sudden, hugger-mugger decision by California Secretary of State Bruce McPherson to override the objections of his own experts and certify the eminently hackable voting machines of the politically partisan firm, Diebold, for use throughout the state means, quite simply, that the fix is in for 2008. It doesn't matter who the Democrats run -- Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, George Clooney or Jesus H. Christ in an Uncle Sam suit. It won't make a bit of difference. California is lost, the presidency is lost and the Bushists are in -- already. It's over.

After Diebold's machines failed miserably in a battery of tests last year, McPherson vowed to put their certification on hold until his own hand-picked panel of experts had fine-combed the system to a fare-thee-well, blogger Brad Friedman reports. The panel delivered their conclusions last month -- and the results were staggering, far beyond the worst fears of the most hard-core "conspiracy theorist." The panel found that Diebold's machines were riddled with curious built-in glitches that effectively "ceded complete control of the system" to hackers who could "change vote totals, modify reports, change the names of candidates and change the races being voted on."

What's more, "hackers wouldn't need to know passwords or cryptographic keys, or have access to any other part of the system to do their dirty work," the Los Angeles Times notes. "Voters, candidates and election monitors wouldn't necessarily know they'd been rooked." A more perfect vehicle for fixing an election can hardly be imagined. And it would require nothing more than a handful of high-tech zealots, not a vast conspiracy.

Naturally, after such a blistering condemnation, McPherson did what any official charged with guaranteeing the integrity and credibility of his state's elections would do: He approved the slipshod system by the dark of the moon, on a Friday before a holiday weekend, without any public hearings -- indeed, without waiting for the results of a pending federal review of Diebold's mole-infested code. Now, the Diebold contraptions, whose chronic "breakdowns" have featured in numerous contested elections and last-second "miracle" victories by Republican candidates across the country in recent years, will control California's pot of electoral gold.

A good example of how this control works can be found in Alaska. There, the state Democratic Party has long been seeking an audit of some of the 2004 Diebold-counted returns, which produced a series of strange anomalies -- including awarding President George W. Bush an extra 100,000 votes that turned out to be phantoms. First, state officials blocked the request because that information, the vote count of a public election, was a "company secret" that belonged exclusively to Diebold, Friedman reports. Then they decided that the returns could be examined -- but only on the condition that Diebold and the Republican officials be allowed to "manipulate the data" before it was released. In the end, even this tainted transparency was too much for the Bushist ballot crunchers; late last month, Alaska officials suddenly declared that examining the returns would pose a dire but unspecified "security risk" to the state.

America's votes are increasingly controlled by a small number of interrelated corporations: Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia, all of which have close political and financial ties to the Bush faction -- and to other dark forces as well. Diebold and ES&S were both bankrolled by tycoon Howard Ahmanson, who was also a major funder of the Christian "Reconstructionist" movement, which openly advocates a totalitarian theocracy in America, including the death penalty for homosexuals, slavery for debtors, stoning for sinners and stripping nonbelievers of citizenship. As journalist Max Blumenthal reports, these extremists have been welcomed as a key part of the Bushist base of politicized evangelicals, whose cadres have been quietly filling government posts for the past five years. Meanwhile, Sequoia -- whose machines racked up 100,000 "mistakes" in just one Florida county in 2004, according to a recent audit -- is owned by a business partner of the Carlyle Group, the investment firm whose insider deals and war profiteering have earned millions for the Bush family.

Thus, the 2008 election will be conducted largely on wide-open machines programmed by avowed partisans and paymasters of a ruthless gang that has already committed demonstrable vote fraud on a massive scale in engineering narrow "victories" in 2000 and 2004. So it doesn't matter who runs, who votes or how unpopular the Bush faction becomes through the murderous ruin of its radical agenda. The "consent of the governed" will be drowned in the blood money that has bought the nation's electoral process.

http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/03/03/120.html

******
like I said, absentee votes and make COPIES before you mail them in!

[estranged4life]

I was tempted to say its up to you guys to vote them out next time but considering the somewhat dubious surroundings with the last two election results that probably won't work either.. :shrug:

vote for an Indepedent candidate in 2008, or God-forbiding that no Independent is listed on the Oklahoma ballot, I will "auction" my vote off on eBay for the right to vote for one of the main 2 political parties (The highest winning bidder's political party will win my vote...So I hope many will bid often!!!)

Oh, one more "conspiracy"...Dont anyone think it is interesting that Halliburton is having their "stock holder's annual meeting" in Duncan. Oklahoma this year (The town where Hella-burton was created) as opposed to the usual site of Houston to avoid the expected protesters? Man, I may get my wish and have Deb take a picture of me re-creating the Who's cover of the album "Who's Next" by "pissing" on the statue of Halliburton's founder at the city park in Duncan.

[gldstwmn]

of the "real driver" of the Ryder truck (Remember, there were over 100+ credible eyewitnesses who saw McVeigh in the Ryder truck as a passenger and a "olive skinned" man behind the wheel...The government NEVER called a single one of these witnesses to testify in the trials for both McVeigh & Nichols.)

When Jose Padilla was first made known nationally, the eyewitnesses to seeing the driver of the Ryder truck immediately were shocked:

<div align=center><img src="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/we-compare.gif"></div>

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/padillaJD2.html

Even the witnesses at the Ryder Rental store in Kansas said there were sure it was Padilla with McVeigh and not some "caucasian" local soldier that our government said was mistaken for John Doe #2 at the same rental store the same day but he was by himself.

As for the leg, it was never claimed (How does one claim their leg anyways :shrug: ) and it was buried in an "unmarked grave".

Interesting. So let me ask you this. Given the men in white suits with the geiger counters, is it possible that Padilla detonated some experimental device at the Murrah building?
The government must know the truth on Padilla. Just whose team is this guy playing on anyway? Makes you wonder.

[gldstwmn]

Our country has been co-opted by the Neocons.

It's all about the corporation. Little did many of us know when we got the CEO president what that truly meant.
I sure the hell didn't see it turning out like this five years ago.

[DavidMn]

I disagree my dear....I can VERY much see this being a dark plot by the neocons to jump start their agenda. Ive got that CD from that site, (www.reopen911.org dont click on it, its not working for some reason!) and I appreciate the guts that Charlie Sheen is showing by speaking out. I especially appreciate him speaking out because he is a celebrity and people pay attention to celebrities.....Good for him I say...

ok, I was going to post the link so people could get their own free DVD, but I think its closed. instead, here is an affiliated link that has quite a bit of resources including downloads etc
Scholars for 911 Truth (http://st911.org/)Fair enough. But doesnt it annoy you when a celebrity that you pretty much doesnt really know what's going on, be it on either side of the issue, just shoots theiur mouth off?

[strandinthewind]

Fair enough. But doesnt it annoy you when a celebrity that you pretty much doesnt really know what's going on, be it on either side of the issue, just shoots theiur mouth off?

Well, how do you know what that celebrity knows? I mean they can read a newspaper and watch CNN just like I and you can :shrug: So, the presumption that they pretty much do not know what is going on is a little bit of a stretch and pretty much rests on the incorrect theory that all celebrities are unlearned idiots popping off for publicity :shrug:

[DavidMn]

Well, how do you know what that celebrity knows? I mean they can read a newspaper and watch CNN just like I and you can :shrug: So, the presumption that they pretty much do not know what is going on is a little bit of a stretch and pretty much rests on the incorrect theory that all celebrities are unlearned idiots popping off for publicity :shrug:No I certainly dont. I guess they can say whatever they want. It is a free country. If I dont likew what theyre saying I'll just switch the channel.:)

[strandinthewind]

No I certainly dont. I guess they can say whatever they want. It is a free country. If I dont likew what theyre saying I'll just switch the channel.:)

That is just such a pet peeve of mine and the right, mostly via Fox News et al, use it constantly. They imply that just because a person is a celebrity, they have no credibility, etc. Then, they villify them for it instead of replying to the statement from the celebrity. Then, they venerate the opinions of celebrities who agree with them. And - they do it for ratings. The whole thing makes me sick.

[Nixxxed]

That is just such a pet peeve of mine and the right, mostly via Fox News et al, use it constantly. They imply that just because a person is a celebrity, they have no credibility, etc. Then, they villify them for it instead of replying to the statement from the celebrity. Then, they venerate the opinions of celebrities who agree with them. And - they do it for ratings. The whole thing makes me sick.
I was flipping past Fox yesterday, just long enough to hear some ancient pundit remark about the whole Sheen incident:

"Well, now we know why Denise Richards divorced him ... heh, heh, heh!"

[irishgrl]

I was flipping past Fox yesterday, just long enough to hear some ancient pundit remark about the whole Sheen incident:

"Well, now we know why Denise Richards divorced him ... heh, heh, heh!"
I am not a fan of Charlie Sheen's ordinarily (because of his treatment of women primarily) but I still say the guy has guts, and I think he should be applauded for taking an unpopular stand on this issue. Im assuming he must've done SOME research or he wouldnt BE sticking his neck out this way.

Fox news is a joke.

[irishgrl]

from the site: www.whatreallyhappened.com :

The Booker Elementary video shows the Secret Service did not rush in to remove the President to a secure location, or at least to the safety of the armored Presidential Limousine. That's their job. That's what they do in the case of a real surprise attack withmany unknowns. They don't do anything else.

But the Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

Bush defenders try to explain Bush's inaction as his not wanting to upset the children. Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9-11" suggests Bush's inaction was due to his not being told to leave. But Michael Moore fails to follow that line of reasoning through to its logical conclusion; where were the people whose job it is to get the President to a place of safety in event of attack, the people who would have, SHOULD have, pulled Bush out of there, children and public appearances be damned!

The Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

If the events of 9-11 were truly a surprise to the United States Government then there is no way the Secret Service could have known there wasn't a hijacked or stolen plane heading towards Booker Elementary School that very second.

The Secret Service did nothing. The dog did not bark.

The Secret Service should be in that video, but they are not. It is clear from their inaction that they KNEW FOR A FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS NOT A TARGET OF ONE OF THE HIJACKED PLANES. The intended targets of the planes had to have been known.

The dog did not bark because the criminal was its master.

Quod Erat Demonstradum, the Bush administration was part of the 9-11 plot.

[estranged4life]

Interesting. So let me ask you this. Given the men in white suits with the geiger counters, is it possible that Padilla detonated some experimental device at the Murrah building?
The government must know the truth on Padilla. Just whose team is this guy playing on anyway? Makes you wonder.

there has been experts who have said the damage caused by the "4800 lbs ANFO truck bomb" could not have caused the damage alone, if at all.

The following study (Which was to show that one ANFO truck bomb could cause the damage) proved to a disaster to the government so much that it was shelved instead of being used during McVeigh's trial (The link is below, Very interesting read) :

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/multibla.html

I remember reading that some believe the closed circuit recordings of the blast (That mysteriously have disappearred) show what may have been a small nuclear explosion caused by a missle (Or even worse, that the Ryder Truck may have exploded, causing yet another bomb parked underneath the Murrah Building to explode, thus explaining the 4.2 second lapse between recorded "seismic abnormalities"...Of interest, days before April 19,1995 several workers at the Murrah building reported seeing "workers" doing "some type of work" on the structure support columns underneath the building.)...If that is true it shows how FUBAR'd this situation indeed was.

911 is interesting in of itself, but OKC is an enigma...One that some hollywood "Limo Liberal" type should explore (ie-Micheal "Krispy Kremes are King" Moore)

[madformac]

Man, I may get my wish and have Deb take a picture of me re-creating the Who's cover of the album "Who's Next" by "pissing" on the statue of Halliburton's founder at the city park in Duncan.

Now I'd vote for that! :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

[madformac]

I was flipping past Fox yesterday, just long enough to hear some ancient pundit remark about the whole Sheen incident:

"Well, now we know why Denise Richards divorced him ... heh, heh, heh!"

I watched her in "The World Is Not Enough" tonight (That would make a good title for this thread and Bush's ideals!). I forgot how well she wore a wet t-shirt. :thumbsup:

[David]

Holy ****! The conspiracy story is ON THE FRONT PAGE OF NEW YORK MAGAZINE!!! A great story by Mark Jacobson:
www.newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index.html

Here's a great part of the story:

A year and a half later, doubt had increased, at least according to my own informal canvassing. Per Nick Levis’s “HOP” paper, I offered four choices: (A) the Official Story; (B) the Official Story plus incompetence; (C) LIHOP; (D) MIHOP.

Of the 56 respondents, 28 said C, 23 picked B, with 4 (including two Muslim cabdrivers) opting for MIHOP.

Almost every white person with a straight job said B. Many disliked Bush but said they couldn’t bring themselves to believe the U.S. government would take part in the death of 3,000 of its countrymen.

Typical was the opinion offered by an investment banker at a downtown bar. “I can see them wishing it would happen, secretly happy it did. But on purpose? Look at the way they’ve managed Iraq. They’re boobs. They couldn’t have pulled off 9/11 without getting caught. Not possible.”

Uptown, responses were different. “Yeah, they knew,” said a retired transit worker on 116th Street, one of the 17 of 22 black people questioned who picked C. He said he’d heard Marvin Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a director of Securacom, a firm that on 9/11 was in charge of security not only at the World Trade Center but also for United and American airlines as well as at Dulles airport, where Flight 77 took off.

“That true?” he asked.

Yeah, I said. That’s what I heard.

“There anywhere he ain’t got no brother?”

“Bush’s cousin, Wirt Walker III, worked there, too.”

“Wirt? The third? You’re ****ting me.”

[strandinthewind]

^^^^^

My only problem with a conspiracy theory of this size is just that - the size of it requires too many people involved. My experience is the more people involved, the more easily someone lets something slip, etc. Now, do I think cover ups happen after events like 9/11. Of course they do - and that is some scary shiitte :nod:

[irishgrl]

^^^^^

My only problem with a conspiracy theory of this size is just that - the size of it requires too many people involved. My experience is the more people involved, the more easily someone lets something slip, etc. Now, do I think cover ups happen after events like 9/11. Of course they do - and that is some scary shiitte :nod:

I dont think you need more than a dozen in on this. plus one hired hand. to be killed later.
I can see a group of Neocons sitting around a table plotting this thing, hiring a demolition expert to plant the explosives and then take him out somewhere, shoot him or better yet, leave him for dead in the basement of WTC1. no witnesses, no problem.

yep....kinda like that pseudo group, SD6 (from Alias). bunch of crazy old men with an agenda.

[bretonbanquet]

^^^^^

My only problem with a conspiracy theory of this size is just that - the size of it requires too many people involved.

That's my immediate thought as well - this would need an awful lot of people to keep silent for a hell of a long time, which traditionally doesn't happen. Someone always blabs about their role eventually. I know that governments the world over are bent as all hell, but I think this might be a conspiracy theory too far.

[strandinthewind]

Esp when OBL himself took credit for it more than once :shrug:

[madformac]

^^^^^

My only problem with a conspiracy theory of this size is just that - the size of it requires too many people involved. My experience is the more people involved, the more easily someone lets something slip, etc. Now, do I think cover ups happen after events like 9/11. Of course they do - and that is some scary shiitte :nod:

Yeah but surely leaks are expected and the reaction to leaks is to spread more and more rumours. Put out enough disinformation and the public doesn't know what to believe, it's all standard black ops stuff I guess. The public are like cattle, as a group they are pretty stupid and easily led. When you get one or two clever ones that stick out, that's when the government goes into action.

You knew Jim Garrison didn't you?

I can't imagine the amount of **** he stirred up in his office from 65 to 68, he was ridiculed for his theories, only years later was it acknowledged that Clay Shaw was a CIA operative which was convenient 'cos he was dead and couldn't say anything anyway. Still to this day nobody has really figured out exactly what happened yet so many would have had to have known.

[strandinthewind]

I clerked for him.

Also, the scope of that cover up was much smaller than flying four (asuming) jet airliners with 12 ? conspirators on each financed by OBL the for which took place over a period of a few years :shrug: I am not saying it could not have happened. I am just saying it is a very complex thing to keep quiet. Moreover, the US had no interest in such an event. W could have found and undoubtedly would have found another way to go to Iraq.

[madformac]

Esp when OBL himself took credit for it more than once :shrug:

Who's payroll is he on??

Bush found Saddam pretty quickly didn't he? When it was convenient.

When you think about OBL he is a perfect figurehead, every story needs a bad guy. You can't kill off the bad guy if you want to make a few sequels to the movie right? Bush Wars. Episode I : WTC Episode II : Afghanistan, Episode III : Iraq, Episode IV : Iran

Bush is the Emperor, Blair is Anakin (Good guy turned bad by the Emperor). Maybe OBL actually is Obi Wan? He's got the beard and robes... He has got a rebel alliance.... :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

LOL!!!!!!

I think the US will do whatever it takes to secure the flow of oil - but flying planes into our own buildings is a little too much of a stretch for me :cool:

Also - I think Babs is Yoda :eek:

[dreamongypsydkm]

Not everybody has been quiet, to speak up is not just a matter of getting a microphone. People are silenced, but some information leaks, this is directly from the Scholars for 9/11 Truth but it's noted in many sources.

Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta provided provocative testimony before the 9-11 Commission. He testified that he went down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center under the White House at about 9:20 on 9/11/01. Vice President Cheney was there and in charge as President Bush was not in Washington, DC. Secretary Mineta related:

During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"
It goes on to say....

There was plenty of time for the scrambling of military jets to intercept flight AA77; it had been well off its flight-approved course for over 50 minutes before it came close to the Pentagon. The commission did not ask such questions, did not include Mineta’s testimony above in the 9/11 Commission Report -- a glaring omission (Griffin, 2005), -- and removed the video of Mineta’s testimony from the 9/11 Commission website

Obviously that's referring to the fact that no jets were scrambled and therefore exactly what orders were still to stand, those to not intercept the incoming plane. It's not that easy for something to slip out and certainly some little things have, hence the mounting alternative theories.

[madformac]

I clerked for him.

Also, the scope of that cover up was much smaller than flying four (asuming) jet airliners with 12 ? conspirators on each financed by OBL the for which took place over a period of a few years :shrug: I am not saying it could not have happened. I am just saying it is a very complex thing to keep quiet. Moreover, the US had no interest in such an event. W could have found and undoubtedly would have found another way to go to Iraq.

Surely is doesn't matter how many know something? If they don't know everything, just pieces then they can't be sure. For all we know the entire US forces were in on it.. I very much doubt it. If we are talking about the events purely on 911 as a trigger then from what we have on this thread you have got 3 teams on the jets, two demolition groups, probably disguised as "maintainance" engineers, a few people in Washington to control comms and thats it. Anybody killed in NYC or Washington goes down as a consequential loss. All the important people are moved away from the danger zones or reassigned. Its easy to do in a matter of months. That probable team had 8 months in office to plan it. No way was Bush involved until the planes hit. He's your figurehead here and is way to stupid to know anything. His dad is clever though, as are his friends on that administration.

[dreamongypsydkm]

LOL!!!!!!

I think the US will do whatever it takes to secure the flow of oil - but flying planes into our own buildings is a little too much of a stretch for me :cool:I can't relate to that way of thinking. To me it seems like just blocking your ears because you can't tolerate it. What Hitler was up to was a stretch for anyone to believe, the Germans certainly did not believe what he was up to, it's only now that we have the knowledge. To believe that it is not true simply because it's a stretch for a humane mind, well that's the weakest line of defense imaginable. I'll quote him again:

In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted …they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie… It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

I really can't tolerate that line of defense, that they wouldn't do that to people so therefore they didn't. I don't think history has taught us much. This government has shown us what they're willing to do, we know they lied to enter Iraq, we know why they went in and that they were willing to murder to get there, how is that anymore inhumane than orchestrating or having knowledge of these events? They are more than capable.

[madformac]

What Hitler was up to was a stretch for anyone to believe, the Germans certainly did not believe what he was up to, it's only now that we have the knowledge.

I think it's quite amazing what Germany actually did and in the timeframe too. When you consider how small a nation it is, the fact it's not a major country of natural resources and the relatively short period of time since World War I how on earth could they be allowed to build a force like that pretty much overnight without being noticed? How many were involved in that masterplan? Why did so few talk? Then when they did strike out it was almost too late to really stop it, such incredible planning. Poland fell, the French, as always, were f**king useless. It's a good job the Russians, Aussies, Kiwis, Americans and others had the balls to join us and stand up to the man with the little moustache. Hey was Hitler a Chaplin fan? :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

I can't relate to that way of thinking . . .
I really can't tolerate that line of defense, that they wouldn't do that to people so therefore they didn't . . . .

That is not my only reason, as I explained earlier. Again, I think the facts (which are difficult to discern) do not support that the US was directly responsible for the events of 9/11.

[strandinthewind]

I think it's quite amazing what Germany actually did and in the timeframe too. When you consider how small a nation it is, the fact it's not a major country of natural resources and the relatively short period of time since World War I how on earth could they be allowed to build a force like that pretty much overnight without being noticed? How many were involved in that masterplan? Why did so few talk? Then when they did strike out it was almost too late to really stop it, such incredible planning. Poland fell, the French, as always, were f**king useless. It's a good job the Russians, Aussies, Kiwis, Americans and others had the balls to join us and stand up to the man with the little moustache. Hey was Hitler a Chaplin fan? :wavey:

I think Europe was so beleagured by WWI and the US was so pissed it had to enter WWI - that many looked the other way at Germany - though many did not.

[madformac]

That is not my only reason, as I explained earlier. Again, I think the facts (which are difficult to discern) do not support that the US was directly responsible for the events of 9/11.

Yeah I'm sceptical too but the one thing that always clarifies things in my mind is this. Who gained the most from those events? America or OBL?

OBL. Let's see. The west hate him even more, bonus or not, depends on his objectives. Radical muslims hate the west. Well, they did already, I don't see much change here. All assets to Al Qaeda have been frozen so he's not done too well on that front. Now he's gone from a nice apartment to a series of caves with no hot water or fridge freezer. He's having to move around a lot more which is not good for a pensioner, especially one with bad legs.

America. Well, Bush got rid of the Iraqi pain in his dad's ass, he's stabilised America's access to oil, he's had American backing to start a "war on terror" Halliburton and many US defence companies are doing good trade, he's created a fear of America as a nation which means he's the bully in the school and gets his candy for free.

I would unhestitatingly place America as the number one aggressor on this planet. Just how many countries have they entered with force in the last 50 years compared to the rest of the world? Exactly. It's scary.

Unfortunately America, under this administration especially, is a far bigger threat to world peace than any other nation. The Neocons and the Christian right are in total control.. OK, North Korea are a little disturbing, China are becoming far more intelligent than they were, Iran, Iraq and Syria are really local players in terms of aggression. Europe are all too scared to do anything, too much history there. The UK has virtually no armed forces left (although we do have the best regiment in the world in the 22nd :D ). OBL is a little man with a small group of radicals with him. I find it very odd the whole weight of the US intelligence resources can't deal with one little man and his merry band...

I feel sorry for the average American. Most know exactly what is going on in their own country but are powerless to stop it. If you are not careful it will lead us all to the gates of hell eventually.

[estranged4life]

Hey was Hitler a Chaplin fan? :wavey:

I believe he was a fan of "Butters" of South Park...Remember when "Cartman" stuck his finger up his butt and wiped the residue under "Butters" nose, And "Butters" kept saying "Everything smells like dookie" :laugh:

[bikerchic]

(9/11 conspiracy therory) Holy **** guy's, you're creepen me out! :shocked: Very, very interesting and enlightning read. I saw the Charlie Sheen interview and was totally blown away by it. I applaud him and CNN Showbiz for airing it. I haven't had a chance yet to view the links that were posted here but I will. It certainly makes you wonder.

Wow, this paragraph really hit it home for me:
(orignally posted by madformac)
What this attack did was give the USA unlimited excuses to attack "threats" to its interests. It does seem very convenient doesn't it? America cannot live without oil and if you need something to survive you are gonna do whatever to get it.

[irishgrl]

That is not my only reason, as I explained earlier. Again, I think the facts (which are difficult to discern) do not support that the US was directly responsible for the events of 9/11.
I suppose it depends which FACTS you view.

there are at least two sites posted here with a different set of facts than what you apparently are going by. There's more than meets the eye with this whole situation and Im convinced the Bushies are part of the mess.

I recall Bush flew out some Saudi friends when all the air space was restricted. what was behind that, pray tell? there's more, but I have to get up early.

TTFN.:wavey:

[irishgrl]

I can't relate to that way of thinking. To me it seems like just blocking your ears because you can't tolerate it. What Hitler was up to was a stretch for anyone to believe, the Germans certainly did not believe what he was up to, it's only now that we have the knowledge. To believe that it is not true simply because it's a stretch for a humane mind, well that's the weakest line of defense imaginable. I'll quote him again:

In the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted …they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie… It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

I really can't tolerate that line of defense, that they wouldn't do that to people so therefore they didn't. I don't think history has taught us much. This government has shown us what they're willing to do, we know they lied to enter Iraq, we know why they went in and that they were willing to murder to get there, how is that anymore inhumane than orchestrating or having knowledge of these events? They are more than capable.


prior to that (and subsequent to that) the neocons fixed elections to ensure their policies would be put into place by hand picked puppets. to ensure a majority in congress, district lines were redrawn illegally. (remember those Texan Democrats who left the state so as not to take part in the passage of the new district lines?) I tell you, California is next. Please see my earlier article...

[macfanken]

prior to that (and subsequent to that) the neocons fixed elections to ensure their policies would be put into place by hand picked puppets. to ensure a majority in congress, district lines were redrawn illegally. (remember those Texan Democrats who left the state so as not to take part in the passage of the new district lines?) I tell you, California is next. Please see my earlier article...


Disgusting... wasn't DeLay behind the redistricting in Texas?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Just one way to solve this..

Who's house can I drive a plane through?

[wondergirl9847]

Yes, but 9/11 happened under W's watch and those same people so willing to point the finger at Clinton are absent in the finger pointing at W for his failure. I mean what is good for the goose . . . . :shrug:

They are both morons. I wasn't pointing a finger at W. I was responding to MFM's saying that Clinton wouldn't have let it happen, when clearly stuff happened on his watch. Das all. :)

Sesly, if regular people made the type of mistakes that Presidents do...none of us would have jobs. :laugh:

[wondergirl9847]

The 1993 bombings took place on February 26, 1993. Clinton had been in office for four weeks.

If someone takes over my job....who trains them? I do. I don't care if he was in office for 2 minutes. He's still President AND....don't they get briefed before taking over? :confused:

[wondergirl9847]

I find it very odd the whole weight of the US intelligence resources can't deal with one little man and his merry band....

You know...eventually, we will find Robin Hood and take him out!! And his pantyhose wearin' thugs too. :mad:


:laugh:

[irishgrl]

If someone takes over my job....who trains them? I do. I don't care if he was in office for 2 minutes. He's still President AND....don't they get briefed before taking over? :confused:


Every transition period is chaotic...I cant think of ANYONE who can be up to speed at a new job in 4 wks time. as the President, there is a lot of info to catch up on...and yes, they do get briefed, but there's the business of picking cabinet members and other assistants who DO the briefing for cripes sake. Clinton chose NOT to go to war. he didnt take the bait (assuming it was a provocation) and Monkey Boy did, in fact, Monkey Boy couldnt wait. :shrug:

[madformac]

Clinton chose NOT to go to war. he didnt take the bait (assuming it was a provocation) and Monkey Boy did, in fact, Monkey Boy couldnt wait. :shrug:

Personally I think that is the key point people are overlooking. The same stunt was pulled twice. Those with "absolute power" in the USA tried it on with Clinton in '93 and it didn't work. The same stunt went down in 2001 with a bigger more dramatic effect to make sure and Cliff "W" Barnes fell for it.

Lets face it. After big George left office in '93, to him, unexpectedly, they needed a way to continue policy. But Clinton made them wait another 8 years. So with "W" they got it. They made sure he got in and they made sure it was for two terms as well.... Everything surrounding the WTC is just, unfortunately, small and inconsequential in the bigger plans of this hidden policy. It was a neccessary trigger for plans to continue.

[SuzeQuze]

LOL!!!!!!

I think the US will do whatever it takes to secure the flow of oil - but flying planes into our own buildings is a little too much of a stretch for me :cool:

Also - I think Babs is Yoda :eek:

I agree with you. But isn't it possible they knew where the planes were heading and said, "Let them hit." knowing this could be their justification for a war in the middleast? I think they knew what was happening and did nothing. Whether that was deliberate or due to complete incompetence is the mystery IMO. I would tend to believe it was incompetence but I wouldn't put anything past this administration.

[DavidMn]

That is just such a pet peeve of mine and the right, mostly via Fox News et al, use it constantly. They imply that just because a person is a celebrity, they have no credibility, etc. Then, they villify them for it instead of replying to the statement from the celebrity. Then, they venerate the opinions of celebrities who agree with them. And - they do it for ratings. The whole thing makes me sick.Well, when you put it that way, I can certainly see your point.

[SuzeQuze]

Every transition period is chaotic...I cant think of ANYONE who can be up to speed at a new job in 4 wks time. as the President, there is a lot of info to catch up on...and yes, they do get briefed, but there's the business of picking cabinet members and other assistants who DO the briefing for cripes sake. Clinton chose NOT to go to war. he didnt take the bait (assuming it was a provocation) and Monkey Boy did, in fact, Monkey Boy couldnt wait. :shrug:

Also, Clinton told the Bush admin that Al Qaeda was the number one threat they should be looking out for, information which they promptly disregarded.

[estranged4life]

think of what Moussaoui (A former Norman, OK resident) said, in his own words today on the stand during his trial, About how both he and Richard Reid ("the shoe bomber") were to have hijacked a 5th airplane on 911 to crash into the White House?

[DavidMn]

think of what Moussaoui (A former Norman, OK resident) said, in his own words today on the stand during his trial, About how both he and Richard Reid ("the shoe bomber") were to have hijacked a 5th airplane on 911 to crash into the White House?I'm very interested in seeing what he has to say. I honestly dont know what to expect.

[wondergirl9847]

Every transition period is chaotic...I cant think of ANYONE who can be up to speed at a new job in 4 wks time. as the President, there is a lot of info to catch up on...and yes, they do get briefed, but there's the business of picking cabinet members and other assistants who DO the briefing for cripes sake.

Watching that video about the Pentagon crash though...they sure got their crap together lightning fast to get alllll those videos from the various angles....didn't they? They can light a fire under their a$$...when they want to.

[DavidMn]

Watching that video about the Pentagon crash though...they sure got their crap together lightning fast to get alllll those videos from the various angles....didn't they? They can light a fire under their a$$...when they want to.Now that you mention it, I do remember how fast that came together.

[skcin]

(9/11 conspiracy therory) Holy **** guy's, you're creepen me out! :shocked: Very, very interesting and enlightning read. I saw the Charlie Sheen interview and was totally blown away by it. I applaud him and CNN Showbiz for airing it. I haven't had a chance yet to view the links that were posted here but I will. It certainly makes you wonder.

Wow, this paragraph really hit it home for me:
(orignally posted by madformac)
What this attack did was give the USA unlimited excuses to attack "threats" to its interests. It does seem very convenient doesn't it? America cannot live without oil and if you need something to survive you are gonna do whatever to get it.

Can I come & live with you? :wavey:

[SuzeQuze]

Can I come & live with you? :wavey:

Me too, please! :wavey:

[bikerchic]

Can I come & live with you? :wavey:
Yes, you Americans are always welcome here :wavey: Although, it's probably just a matter of time before Bush tries to take control of our oil.

[bikerchic]

Me too, please! :wavey:
You too Suze :wavey:

[madformac]

Yes, you Americans are always welcome here :wavey: Although, it's probably just a matter of time before Bush tries to take control of our oil.

In which case you can all hire a flight and come over here. :wavey:

[irishgrl]

Watching that video about the Pentagon crash though...they sure got their crap together lightning fast to get alllll those videos from the various angles....didn't they? They can light a fire under their a$$...when they want to.
I agree. I just sense that the degree of culpability is astronomically greater under Monkey Boy than it ever was under Clinton. And I hold him infinitesimally more accountable.

[irishgrl]

In which case you can all hire a flight and come over here. :wavey:
Jason? you still up for that Balloon ride over the auld sod? you can regale us with your exquisite rendition of Danny Boy?? :blob1:

[strandinthewind]

Jason? you still up for that Balloon ride over the auld sod? you can regale us with your exquisite rendition of Danny Boy?? :blob1:

Yep - and I am going to naked with a top hat for most of it :wavey: :wavey:

[irishgrl]

Yep - and I am going to naked with a top hat for most of it :wavey: :wavey:

WOO HOO! Ive seen you naked! I'll need napkins to catch the drool! :laugh:

[bikerchic]

How long has the 9/11 conspiracy theory been around? and why don't the main stream media ever report on it?

[irishgrl]

How long has the 9/11 conspiracy theory been around? and why don't the main stream media ever report on it?
I think people started asking questions almost immediately, there was just so much that didnt jive....but anyone who said the administration knew more than it was saying was called a crackpot. So mostly, its stayed underground until recently with mainstream media attention from Time, CNN and the like.....

who knows? hopefully it will gain momentum and shine more light on the darkness that is Bush and Co.:mad:

[SuzeQuze]

In which case you can all hire a flight and come over here. :wavey:

Smashing! :wavey: Paula and Theresa are really fun. In fact, I don't know if we would live very long all being in the same location. :lol:

[SuzeQuze]

I think people started asking questions almost immediately, there was just so much that didnt jive....but anyone who said the administration knew more than it was saying was called a crackpot. So mostly, its stayed underground until recently with mainstream media attention from Time, CNN and the like.....

who knows? hopefully it will gain momentum and shine more light on the darkness that is Bush and Co.:mad:

Anyone who criticized the administration was unpatriotic, a traitor even. There was a lot of pressure not to. It really was astounding that no investigation was done for so long. So much information was destroyed. I believe it was the air traffic controllers who all video taped what happened on that day but those tapes were destroyed.

[irishgrl]

Anyone who criticized the administration was unpatriotic, a traitor even. There was a lot of pressure not to. It really was astounding that no investigation was done for so long. So much information was destroyed. I believe it was the air traffic controllers who all video taped what happened on that day but those tapes were destroyed.


ya know....I got a lot of flak for saying "where's John Hinkley when you need him" but I still believe this WORLD would have been better off if Monkey Boy would have had an "accident" .....maybe HE should have gone hunting with Cheney

[SuzeQuze]

ya know....I got a lot of flak for saying "where's John Hinkley when you need him" but I still believe this WORLD would have been better off if Monkey Boy would have had an "accident" .....maybe HE should have gone hunting with Cheney

I've accidentally prayed for this once or twice, god forgive me! :lol: I don't know about it for real though, Cheney as president makes me shudder nearly to the point of incontinence. :eek:

[skcin]

Smashing! :wavey: Paula and Theresa are really fun. In fact, I don't know if we would live very long all being in the same location. :lol:


Probably not a good idea for a long period of time. :laugh:

[Sugar]

I've accidentally prayed for this once or twice, god forgive me! :lol:

You're not the only one...where's the "zero factor" when you need it.

[SuzeQuze]

Probably not a good idea for a long period of time. :laugh:

Not if we want our livers to remain intact. :eek: :lol:

You're not the only one...where's the "zero factor" when you need it.

I forgot about that! A Google search led me to this page with other presidential odd facts like Lincoln having a vision of his own death and Washington skipping out on talks with the King of France to get home to his hemp harvest! :eek: http://www.civil-liberties.com/factoids/july4_02.htm

[strandinthewind]

I've accidentally prayed for this once or twice, god forgive me! :lol: I don't know about it for real though, Cheney as president makes me shudder nearly to the point of incontinence. :eek:

Thus, my point that censure and impeachment are irrelevant at this point. The only way to rid us of that ilk is via the elections. Sadly, the vast majority of Americans think opposing gay marriage is far more important an issue as evidenced by the last round of elections.

[SuzeQuze]

Thus, my point that censure and impeachment are irrelevant at this point. The only way to rid us of that ilk is via the elections. Sadly, the vast majority of Americans think opposing gay marriage is far more important an issue as evidenced by the last round of elections.

Hmm, I'm not sure its the vast majority but the ones that do think its important certainly are loud about it. :mad: It doesn't affect them at all if gays get married but its a good issue for Rethugs to elevate in importance to cover up their fleecing of the poor and middle class.

[strandinthewind]

Hmm, I'm not sure its the vast majority but the ones that do think its important certainly are loud about it. :mad: It doesn't affect them at all if gays get married but its a good issue for Rethugs to elevate in importance to cover up their fleecing of the poor and middle class.

I am just refering to the last elections where the state Const. bans on gay marriage passed in the 60th percentiles :shrug: to wit:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6383353/

also:

Same-Sex Marriage Measures Succeed
Bans in Several States Supported By Wide Margins
By T.R. Reid
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 3, 2004; Page A25


Red state or blue, north or south, voters around the country found at least one thing they could agree on yesterday as proposals banning same-sex marriage were winning in all 11 states where the issue appeared on the ballot.

Tallies from Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, Oklahoma, North Dakota and Utah showed constitutional amendments restricting marriage to a man and woman would pass by substantial margins. A similar measure in Oregon enjoyed a solid lead with nearly three-quarters of the votes counted.

Gary Bauer, director of the conservative group American Values, said the results on same-sex marriage proposals "tell us that the American people know exactly where they stand on this question, and it doesn't matter whether it's a Bush state or a Kerry state."

But social conservatives were on the losing end of the vote in California, where voters agreed to create a $3 billion fund to finance research on embryonic stem cells, circumventing federal limits imposed by President Bush.

Voters in three other states were headed toward approving new funds dedicated to health care programs, in each case by imposing hefty tax increases on tobacco. Montanans agreed to raise the tax on a pack of cigarettes by $1; an increase of 64 cents per pack was leading in Colorado, and Oklahoma voters approved a 55-cent tax hike.

In a result that could spark anti-immigration proposals in other states, Arizona voters appeared to be backing a measure that would require public officials to turn in illegal immigrants who seek public services, including police or fire calls. Supporters of the proposal said they want to see the idea carried to other states.

In Colorado, voters rejected a plan that would have divided the state's nine electoral votes in proportion to the popular vote in presidential elections. Supporters had called the move a step toward eliminating the electoral college nationally; opponents argued that dividing the state's vote would prompt presidential candidates to ignore Colorado altogether. Colorado Republicans, expecting Bush to carry the state, led the opposition to the proposal.

Montana voters approved the use of marijuana there for medical reasons, even though Bush had dispatched his drug czar to campaign against the measure. But a measure to further loosen marijuana controls in Oregon was losing, and Alaskans appeared to defeat a proposal that would have decriminalized marijuana possession.

Floridians approved a cap on damage awards in medical malpractice lawsuits. A similar proposal was leading in Nevada, but the vote on malpractice damage caps was extremely close in Oregon and Wyoming.

Florida voters also approved a measure that will allow the legislature to require parental notice before an abortion can be performed on girls younger than 18. Courts previously voided parental-notice laws, but the ballot measure passed yesterday changes the state constitution and would allow the legislature to approve the law.

Floridians approved a measure to raise the minimum wage to $6.15, a dollar above the federal minimum wage. Nevadans were also voting on a minimum-wage increase.

Oklahomans agreed to create a state lottery, leaving nine states that do not use this form of gambling to raise revenue. But gambling proposals struck out elsewhere. Californians appeared to reject proposals to allow more slot machines and casinos, Michigan voters tightened requirements to open casinos there, and Nebraskans resoundingly rejected an initiative that would have permitted Las Vegas-style casinos on the plains.

A proposal before California voters to ease the three-strikes law that mandates a lengthy prison term for a third felony conviction was closely contested with about half the voted counted.

The election offered more than 160 ballot issues to voters in 34 states yesterday. That was a decline from the 2002 election, when ballots in 40 states listed 202 initiatives and referenda. The decrease reflected, in part, efforts by several state legislatures to make it more difficult for voters to qualify initiative proposals for the ballot.

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20471-2004Nov3.html
__________________________________________________

So, clearly the vast majority of people are not for this concept - and that is sad IMO.

[madformac]

Smashing! :wavey: Paula and Theresa are really fun. In fact, I don't know if we would live very long all being in the same location. :lol:

I'll put you all in seperate rooms.. I'll have to sleep on the couch. :laugh: :wavey:

[madformac]

I've accidentally prayed for this once or twice, god forgive me! :lol: I don't know about it for real though, Cheney as president makes me shudder nearly to the point of incontinence. :eek:

I used to think that... But then I thought no.

Bush is just a fool and an idiot. You would only be "shooting the messenger". He gets replaced and the game carries on.

Bush is indeed the monkey. But you have many organ grinders behind him. :wavey:

[SuzeQuze]

...Red state or blue, north or south, voters around the country found at least one thing they could agree on yesterday as proposals banning same-sex marriage were winning in all 11 states where the issue appeared on the ballot.

Tallies from Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, Oklahoma, North Dakota and Utah showed constitutional amendments restricting marriage to a man and woman would pass by substantial margins. A similar measure in Oregon enjoyed a solid lead with nearly three-quarters of the votes counted.

Gary Bauer, director of the conservative group American Values, said the results on same-sex marriage proposals "tell us that the American people know exactly where they stand on this question, and it doesn't matter whether it's a Bush state or a Kerry state."

The thing is, this is not a scientific sampling of Americans. It is Americans in these 11 states. So you can't really conclude that the vast majority of Americans are against same sex marriage based on this limited data. What do you suppose would happen if you included MA, NY, and CA? That would skew the results the other way IMO. Or I certainly hope it would.

I used to think that... But then I thought no.

Bush is just a fool and an idiot. You would only be "shooting the messenger". He gets replaced and the game carries on.

Bush is indeed the monkey. But you have many organ grinders behind him. :wavey:

Is it wrong for me to wish them all dead together then? It is. Forgive me, please!

I'll put you all in seperate rooms.. I'll have to sleep on the couch. :laugh: :wavey:

Eh hem, they're married, I am not! But you still have to sleep on the couch. :lol: Well, if you would be so gracious that is.

[madformac]

Is it wrong for me to wish them all dead together then?

No, not in the slightest.


Eh hem, they're married, I am not! But you still have to sleep on the couch. :lol: Well, if you would be so gracious that is.

I'd be gracious of course. I'm a very well behaved chap you know. :nod: :] :laugh: :laugh:

You know, everytime I sleep on a couch somewhere I'm reminded of the scene in Notting Hill when Hugh is on the couch and Spike creeps downstairs and asks about Julia Roberts "Do you mind if I, err, slip her one?" :lol: What a classic scene in a great film.

[chiliD]

ya know....I got a lot of flak for saying "where's John Hinkley when you need him" but I still believe this WORLD would have been better off if Monkey Boy would have had an "accident" .....maybe HE should have gone hunting with Cheney

Just give him a bag of pretzels...he'll eventually choke on 'em.

[madformac]

Just give him a bag of pretzels...he'll eventually choke on 'em.

Or make sure his advisors forget to take the cap off his bottled water and he will dry up before he figures out what to do... :laugh:

[estranged4life]

Tallies from Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, Oklahoma, North Dakota and Utah showed constitutional amendments restricting marriage to a man and woman would pass by substantial margins. A similar measure in Oregon enjoyed a solid lead with nearly three-quarters of the votes counted.

Oh-me-oh-my, I voted against the majority in the state (Of confusion) known as Oklahoma...I aligned myself (Along with my wife Deb) against the relig-a-tards and right wingers, I guess I should lose sleep because I'm a goin' to hell...Boo-frikkedy-hoo!!! What shall I ever do? Easy, Nothing...I shall forever remain the difficult asshole that God placed me upon this Earth to be.

Oklahomans agreed to create a state lottery, leaving nine states that do not use this form of gambling to raise revenue. But gambling proposals struck out elsewhere. Californians appeared to reject proposals to allow more slot machines and casinos, Michigan voters tightened requirements to open casinos there, and Nebraskans resoundingly rejected an initiative that would have permitted Las Vegas-style casinos on the plains.


Oklahoma passed a lottery in part that pays excess amount of $$$$ for the upkeep of the education system of many of the children of Oklahoma...The politicians sure werent interested in making the children of this state any more intelligent were they? Oh no, they would rather worry about someones sexual orientation (And PRIVATE life) and if those same folk would want to marry someday (Finding love is a great thing, why should holy matrimony be held exclusive to those of us hetero-a-holes???)...Hell ya Oklahoma Poli-tic-tards, why dontcha worry about how drunken Billy Bob beats his wife Elle-Mae after the fact his farmyard (And very much so Government subsidized) cow/sheep/goat wasnt able to sexually please him and how he thinks his infant boy now makes a good football to kick throughout the house!!!

[DavidMn]

Oh-me-oh-my, I voted against the majority in the state (Of confusion) known as Oklahoma...I aligned myself (Along with my wife Deb) against the relig-a-tards and right wingers, I guess I should lose sleep because I'm a goin' to hell...Boo-frikkedy-hoo!!! What shall I ever do? Easy, Nothing...I shall forever remain the difficult asshole that God placed me upon this Earth to be.



Oklahoma passed a lottery in part that pays excess amount of $$$$ for the upkeep of the education system of many of the children of Oklahoma...The politicians sure werent interested in making the children of this state any more intelligent were they? Oh no, they would rather worry about someones sexual orientation (And PRIVATE life) and if those same folk would want to marry someday (Finding love is a great thing, why should holy matrimony be held exclusive to those of us hetero-a-holes???)...Hell ya Oklahoma Poli-tic-tards, why dontcha worry about how drunken Billy Bob beats his wife Elle-Mae after the fact his farmyard (And very much so Government subsidized) cow/sheep/goat wasnt able to sexually please him and how he thinks his infant boy now makes a good football to kick throughout the house!!!I'll look forward to hanging out with you down there.:cool:

[estranged4life]

I'll look forward to hanging out with you down there.:cool:

I will be runnin' the show down there...And our special musical guests will be Fleetwood Mac, Queen, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, etc..

It will be a real hot time in the town tonight when I come to rule hell (ie-No Relig-a-tards or right wing politicians) :thumbsup:

Brian "Ya gotta love my nickname T.A.C.I.T.=The Anti-Christ In Training :nod: " j.

[DavidMn]

I will be runnin' the show down there...And our special musical guests will be Fleetwood Mac, Queen, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, etc..

It will be a real hot time in the town tonight when I come to rule hell (ie-No Relig-a-tards or right wing politicians) :thumbsup:

Brian "Ya gotta love my nickname T.A.C.I.T.=The Anti-Christ In Training :nod: " j.EH, heaven's boring anyway right?:laugh:

[strandinthewind]

The thing is, this is not a scientific sampling of Americans. It is Americans in these 11 states. So you can't really conclude that the vast majority of Americans are against same sex marriage based on this limited data. What do you suppose would happen if you included MA, NY, and CA? That would skew the results the other way IMO. Or I certainly hope it would . . . .

Only time will tell and recent polls suggests support for gay marriage is increasing http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3747451.html Of course, this is in a time period where the religious zealots have not started the hellfire and brimstone screaming.

And - please note I am happy the support is increasing. I am just once bitten twice shy on the issue because of 2004.

[irishgrl]

I used to think that... But then I thought no.

Bush is just a fool and an idiot. You would only be "shooting the messenger". He gets replaced and the game carries on.

Bush is indeed the monkey. But you have many organ grinders behind him. :wavey:


at one time I had a pic of Bush as the Monkey and Rove as the Organ Grinder, but I lost it somewhere.......:(

and Jason, I still maintain that discrediting the sock puppet would be MOST satisfying! I would LOVE to see that man (and by extention, his policies and advisors) soundly tarred with the brush of SHAME and dishonor. :nod:

it was conservative policies like these in the 50's that led to the "youthquake" of the 60's and 70's.......these eejits dont realize that history will repeat itself if they dont learn from their pasts....

[madformac]

This is interesting....

http://70.84.33.210/%7Einfomedi/video/previews/170305martialpreview2.wmv

:wavey:

[irishgrl]

This is interesting....

http://70.84.33.210/%7Einfomedi/video/previews/170305martialpreview2.wmv

:wavey:
I dont have pc, what is it?

[SuzeQuze]

Only time will tell and recent polls suggests support for gay marriage is increasing http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3747451.html Of course, this is in a time period where the religious zealots have not started the hellfire and brimstone screaming.

And - please note I am happy the support is increasing. I am just once bitten twice shy on the issue because of 2004.

I know, I just wanted to point out that statistics can be misleading, especially in the hands of reporters! I know that you know this but in this case they got you a bit. Which I understand because it really was such a devastating result. Still, I really don't believe it is the majority's opinion. I hope that I'm right!

[SuzeQuze]

You know, everytime I sleep on a couch somewhere I'm reminded of the scene in Notting Hill when Hugh is on the couch and Spike creeps downstairs and asks about Julia Roberts "Do you mind if I, err, slip her one?" :lol: What a classic scene in a great film.

I don't remember that scene! But I did like the film. You're such a guy, somehow sleeping on a couch is about sex. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

I know, I just wanted to point out that statistics can be misleading, especially in the hands of reporters! I know that you know this but in this case they got you a bit. Which I understand because it really was such a devastating result. Still, I really don't believe it is the majority's opinion. I hope that I'm right!

I think it is how they phrase the question and, more importantly, how the proposed Amendments/laws are worded. Many of these Amendments were worded so that the average Joe Schmoe voter thought they were voting for the word "marriage" to stay defined in a heterosexual manner and did not realize that the Amendment also prohibited any sort of civil union status, which I think most of those affirmative voters were for despite their wanting to protect the word "marriage."

[madformac]

I dont have pc, what is it?

It's a 20 minute report for Windows media player on the demolition of WTC 7 and evidence showing explosive charges set off in the two towers seconds before they fell...

It looks pretty convincing to me, and the comments from the firemen seem to back it up.. :shocked:

Heres a link.. http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/asner_on_cnn.htm

at the bottom of the page there are links to windows media player and quicktime..

[madformac]

You're such a guy, somehow sleeping on a couch is about sex. :lol:

:laugh: :laugh: :xoxo: :wavey:

[irishgrl]

It's a 20 minute report for Windows media player on the demolition of WTC 7 and evidence showing explosive charges set off in the two towers seconds before they fell...

It looks pretty convincing to me, and the comments from the firemen seem to back it up.. :shocked:

Heres a link.. http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/asner_on_cnn.htm

at the bottom of the page there are links to windows media player and quicktime..

I have quicktime, Ive got a mac.....thanks for the link...

[Ghost_Tracker]

The thing I mainly wonder about is, why haven't we gotten Bin Laden yet? After what he did? This is the United States we're talking about here - and we're letting a few mountains stop us???
*scratching head.*

As for the rest, I just dunno - but I think people who believe this need to think about just how combustible several thousand tons of airplane fuel are. That stuff is literally designed to burn. I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just saying, i.m.o. you can't take the fact that the buildings collapsed as evidence of some big conspiracy. (and for every engineer who says the buildings should not have fallen, there's one who says they should have.)

i.m.o. also, the stuff about the pictures of the airplane at the Pentagon is nonsense - it's a security camera, they take pictures periodically; not constantly. And it's EASY to fly a plane in the way they alledgedly did. So i.m.o. Charlie Sheen is f.o.s. there.

My main feeling though, is that somebody would have talked by now. It's just too big for someone not too - one would hope that SOMEBODY would have felt guilty enough to at least drop a few hints, and to the best of my knowledge that hasn't happened.

[strandinthewind]

Also, if the plane did not crash into the Pentagon, then where are the people who were on the plane and where is the plane? Did I miss the explanation of that?

[bikerchic]

Also, if the plane did not crash into the Pentagon, then where are the people who were on the plane and where is the plane? Did I miss the explanation of that?
Apparently they were all dropped off in some hanger and are still there :laugh:

[bikerchic]

Interesting site. Apparently all the evidence is here that a plane did hit the pentagon. Even photo's and eye witnesses account's from the freeway running along side the pentagon that were hit by debris from the plane flying over. I alway wondered why we never heard anything from the people on the highway that day that the plane would have literally touched their cars flying that low.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

[strandinthewind]

Apparently they were all dropped off in some hanger and are still there :laugh:

Well, they could be in our guest house in Cuba :eek:

Here are more conspiracy sites - note the roll they give Barbara Olsen:

http://www.vialls.com/lies911/lies.htm

http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/OlsenArrested.htm

I think these are untrue - but take them as you (generic) will :cool:

[irishgrl]

The thing I mainly wonder about is, why haven't we gotten Bin Laden yet? After what he did? This is the United States we're talking about here - and we're letting a few mountains stop us???
*scratching head.*

As for the rest, I just dunno - but I think people who believe this need to think about just how combustible several thousand tons of airplane fuel are. That stuff is literally designed to burn. I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just saying, i.m.o. you can't take the fact that the buildings collapsed as evidence of some big conspiracy. (and for every engineer who says the buildings should not have fallen, there's one who says they should have.)

i.m.o. also, the stuff about the pictures of the airplane at the Pentagon is nonsense - it's a security camera, they take pictures periodically; not constantly. And it's EASY to fly a plane in the way they alledgedly did. So i.m.o. Charlie Sheen is f.o.s. there.

My main feeling though, is that somebody would have talked by now. It's just too big for someone not too - one would hope that SOMEBODY would have felt guilty enough to at least drop a few hints, and to the best of my knowledge that hasn't happened.


the issue of the diesel fuel is addressed at the sites formerly posted. yes, its designed to burn but the mere fact of its burning doesnt mean its enough to collapse a building that had redundant safety structures....

and, since loose lips sink ships, I suppose the bodies are buried in cement in some new building somwhere.....kinda like Jimmy Hoffa

[irishgrl]

Also, if the plane did not crash into the Pentagon, then where are the people who were on the plane and where is the plane? Did I miss the explanation of that?

those air traffic controllers were wearing their beer goggles and were seeing double! a "phantom plane with phantom passengers!" oh those crazy air traffic controllers!:eek: