The REAL truth about the Abortion Debate

[irishgrl]

finally: common sense words about the TRUE aim of the "Pro-Lifers" (note: partial article)

The abortion row in the US is not about babies. It's about power-mad grown-ups who despise each other

Lionel Shriver
Thursday March 9, 2006
The Guardian

I've suffered a dizzy sensation this week because my native United States is hurtling backwards through time. South Dakota has just passed a total ban on abortion and half a dozen other states have similar legislation in the pipeline. The new law makes no exception for rape or incest, so that even a 13-year-old knocked up by her own father would be obliged to take her baby to term. The intention, of course, is that the law ends up in the supreme court, where the American right hopes that, with the help of Bush's two new appointees, the court will overturn the evil Roe v Wade, which legalised abortion nationwide in 1973.

Neither you nor I have the appetite for debating the abortion issue once again, so let's skip to the interesting bit. What's really going on here?

"In the history of the world, the true test of a civilisation is how well people treat the most vulnerable and most helpless in their society," the governor of South Dakota opined on Monday. "The sponsors and supporters of this bill believe that abortion is wrong because unborn children are the most vulnerable and most helpless persons in our society."

Lofty rhetoric. But I have studied the eyes of the fanatics who regularly picket abortion clinics in the US and I do not see love of tiny unborn babies. I see hatred.

What is really going on here is the same culture war that has been raging in America since I was a kid - the same stand-off between the strait-laced, self-righteous toe-the-line types who wear hats to church, and the grubby, licentious long-hairs brandishing peace signs with whom I grew up. Both factions are still shouting at each other across the cultural divide, and these poor foetuses are just weapons flung like ripe tomatoes. The abortion issue in the US is not about babies. It's about control, about power, about who can tell whom what to do, about who despises whom and their disgusting lifestyle. In short, it's about grown-ups.

The term "pro-life" could not be less apt. (Enjoy the irony that many a "pro-lifer" also supports capital punishment.) Only the abortion rights movement has a genuinely positive agenda, the protection of a woman's right to make her own decision about an admittedly thorny moral issue whose implications are intimate. The emotional force driving pro-lifers is profoundly negative; alas, it is our negative emotions that usually pack the most punch. The anti-abortion movement is fired up with loathing - for permissive, Godless lefties who don't even get nervous when threatened with eternal damnation since they don't believe in it (which must be terribly frustrating). Thrilled with the sudden realignment on the supreme court, the right is power-mad, and relishes the prospect of telling the heathens what they can and cannot do. This is a very personal showdown, but it is a showdown between folks who are generally at least five feet tall. The babies are useful tools, but emotionally irrelevant.

I spot exactly the same hypocrisy in the animal rights movement, which is also driven by hatred of fellow bipeds, and which appears to have very little to do with beagles that are punched in the nose. This is another cadre giddy with its own power, high on self-righteousness and, considering their ostensible area of biological expertise, one strangely oblivious to the fact that the people whose cars and labs they bomb are animals too. In hounding (if you will) Oxford students or investors of Huntington Life Sciences, Animal Liberation Front types are less driven to protect caged rats than to push other people around.

In kind, the fastidious urbanites who successfully outlawed fox-hunting never struck me as especially fussed about foxes. Oh, they talked about the poor little foxes, but the foxes themselves were mere rhetorical pawns. The emotional colour of the hunting-ban argument was negative and authoritarian, if, in this case, of a leftwing brand. The fox-hunting debate has always been about people - people you don't like and people who will bolster your own sense of victorious domination once you get to ruin their weekends.

[Sorcerer386]

This is so true, it's sad. I will never understand why anyone thinks its his or her business what another person decides to do with his/her life. Anyway, does anyone think there will be a coat hanger drive to send to South Dakota? They'll certainly be needing a lot more... :rolleyes: :mad:

[carrie721]

This is so true, it's sad. I will never understand why anyone thinks its his or her business what another person decides to do with his/her life. Anyway, does anyone think there will be a coat hanger drive to send to South Dakota? They'll certainly be needing a lot more... :rolleyes: :mad:

hahahaha, can i help with the drive?

[SuzeQuze]

This actually explains the rationale (or lack thereof) behind alot of issues. The superior and self-rightious hypocrites want to control the inferior, dumb regular people. The good, hard-working people want to gain control of their lives from the evil, hypocritical fat cats.

[irishgrl]

This actually explains the rationale (or lack thereof) behind alot of issues. The superior and self-rightious hypocrites want to control the inferior, dumb regular people. The good, hard-working people want to gain control of their lives from the evil, hypocritical fat cats.

well, now, I think I would characterize it just a bit different:
the evil, superior, self righteous hypocritical fat cats want to control the inferior regular hard working people.

YEP. Thats about the size of it.:shocked: :eek:

[SuzeQuze]

well, now, I think I would characterize it just a bit different:
the evil, superior, self righteous hypocritical fat cats want to control the inferior regular hard working people.

YEP. Thats about the size of it.:shocked: :eek:

I guess, but I don't think the fat cats see the regular people as hard working. I also think they seem them as stupid. They would have to with the type of sh*t they try to pull! My first statement was written from the perspective of the fat cats and the second from that of common folks. Sort of, there's some fairly obvious bias in there. :laugh:

[foxyluva]

I may be one of the few people on hear who does not agree with abortion. Its not anything religious, but I just do not like the thought of killing an living thing. However, I will say, that I think abortion should be legal, because it is not up to politions or the government to tell people how to live their lives. I have many friends that have had abortions - just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean that I hate my friends because of it. Its not my body, so who am I to say what you can and can't do?

[DavidMn]

This actually explains the rationale (or lack thereof) behind alot of issues. The superior and self-rightious hypocrites want to control the inferior, dumb regular people. The good, hard-working people want to gain control of their lives from the evil, hypocritical fat cats.
After all, how could dummies like you and I know what to do if they didnt tell us?:rolleyes: :mad:

[jadegypsy]

foxyluva: I wish more people thought like you did, I can understand people being against the idea, but I can never figure out why they then feel it is their right to push their opinions on another person...it's a pity people feel pro-choice translates to pro-abortion when it really translates to pro-letting people make thier own best decisions.

I do wonder what is going to happen when some minor gets pregnant by her relative and how that will play out in public...is that state who passed this insane bill going to pay for all the child support and counseling the kid will need, or does it just get swept under the rug as a problem no-one really wants to examine. They had a similar issue on Boston Legal a few weeks ago with a rape victim and the morning after pill...(great show btw).

[foxyluva]

foxyluva: I wish more people thought like you did, I can understand people being against the idea, but I can never figure out why they then feel it is their right to push their opinions on another person...it's a pity people feel pro-choice translates to pro-abortion when it really translates to pro-letting people make thier own best decisions.

Thank You. I've always felt that if you don't agree with something then DONT DO IT. How dare you tell other people what they can and can't do.

I think that these so called 'people' who allowed this to become law should be made legally accountable for any unwanted pregnancies that people are now forced to have. Should they should have to adopt the children :shrug:

[chiliD]

The pro-lifers seem only care about the fetus...once the baby's born, they could give two ****s about it.

I guess, but I don't think the fat cats see the regular people as hard working. I also think they seem them as stupid. They would have to with the type of sh*t they try to pull!

Because they control the news & talkradio shows (especially Fox News...my God is that the Republican/Religious Right mouthpiece masquerading as "news" or what?), they think we're stupid because they think we'll buy into their lies...that we're brainwashed. (Just listen to how absurd & ridiculous people like Sean Hannity, a friggin whack-job incarnate, are...it scares the **** out of me to realize that those people are SO insane that Pat Buchanan actually sometimes makes sense.)

It is EXACTLY what the Nazi's did in 1930's Germany, it is EXACTLY what Stalin (and his successors) did in the Soviet Union, it is EXACTLY what the Republican party is doing to us now. TELLING us what & how to think. What can we do? Well, vote against the Republican party candidates...if that doesn't work...civil disobedience, revolution, anarchy.

[Sugar]

We were discussing this today at work because we were trying to figure out how to editorialize on it. I feared I may have gone on a little long about the subject, especially since my immediate boss (the editorial page editor) I'm pretty sure leans pro-life. I was sitting here lamenting having said, "The pro-life movement is all about moral superiority and punishing sluts," because I feared it may have been a little much. But now I feel so vindicated!

It's all so true! If these people were truly interested in life, they would be going in and finding out why women have abortions and try to deal with those issues instead of just trying to outlaw abortion.

I bet paid maternity leave would have some women reconsidering having their baby. Or affordable day care and pre-school. Or knowing there's little chance of the father being able to skip out on helping take care of the baby.

Now there's a pro-life agenda...

[eclipse]

I love foxy's opinion..It ,well. you know, it makes sense:)

And the thought of hanving a coat hanger drive sends shivers up my spine:eek: :eek:
I am a woman- 47, Pro-choice and pro-family...amazing huh, but that truly is possible!
What frightend me most, as I recall, I was not old enough to have these peoblems but- (although it was in reading) , is how and what it was like for women before abortion was made legal- The needless, deaths, the Doctor's being arrested, the ludicrist stance that "government " knew what was best for us", the pain and sufferings...of the pregnant women was staggering and much more prevelent than is acknowleldged I fear.

But as I said, what scares me the most ----is that all ,( at least the majority) , of the Anti-abotion zealots are MEN!
MEN...What concept do they have on issues of pregnancy and it's results??
Scares me lots...:shocked: :shocked:
~~eclipse~~

[SuzeQuze]

The pro-lifers seem only care about the fetus...once the baby's born, they could give two ****s about it.



Because they control the news & talkradio shows (especially Fox News...my God is that the Republican/Religious Right mouthpiece masquerading as "news" or what?), they think we're stupid because they think we'll buy into their lies...that we're brainwashed. (Just listen to how absurd & ridiculous people like Sean Hannity, a friggin whack-job incarnate, are...it scares the **** out of me to realize that those people are SO insane that Pat Buchanan actually sometimes makes sense.)

It is EXACTLY what the Nazi's did in 1930's Germany, it is EXACTLY what Stalin (and his successors) did in the Soviet Union, it is EXACTLY what the Republican party is doing to us now. TELLING us what & how to think. What can we do? Well, vote against the Republican party candidates...if that doesn't work...civil disobedience, revolution, anarchy.

The stats are something like 90% of the news outlets are owned by 5 companies and they are all Republican. It is crazy and very frightening how many people believe the lies. :eek:

Hannity is absurd. I love listening to Stephanie Miller make fun of him, her voice guy is always doing his "What about the buses?" bit.

[David]

I bet paid maternity leave would have some women reconsidering having their baby.As long as I don't have to pay for it.

[gldstwmn]

We were discussing this today at work because we were trying to figure out how to editorialize on it. I feared I may have gone on a little long about the subject, especially since my immediate boss (the editorial page editor) I'm pretty sure leans pro-life. I was sitting here lamenting having said, "The pro-life movement is all about moral superiority and punishing sluts," because I feared it may have been a little much. But now I feel so vindicated!

It's all so true! If these people were truly interested in life, they would be going in and finding out why women have abortions and try to deal with those issues instead of just trying to outlaw abortion.

I bet paid maternity leave would have some women reconsidering having their baby. Or affordable day care and pre-school. Or knowing there's little chance of the father being able to skip out on helping take care of the baby.

Now there's a pro-life agenda...

How about decent affordable healthcare, too?

[David]

How about decent affordable healthcare, too?
It's amazing. There's a limited amount of public money, & instead of using what there is for things like medicine & vaccines against the bird flu & filling potholes in the streets so that we don't have to get new axles on our cars every time we drive to the market, we spend billions or trillions over there in the Mideast deserts, cocking around with tanks & fighter jets, like a big game of Battleship that lasts year after year.

the party in power tells me that I'm helping "liberate" the "people of Iraq" -- WHY?!! Why should MY money be spent on some amorphous mass conveniently known as "the people of Iraq"?! I don't hold down a job to LIBERATE so-and-so on the other side of the world!! (especially people that would kill me in an instant if they had the chance) I hold down a job to FILL THE DAMN POTHOLES IN THE STREETS THAT I USE!!! :mad: :mad:

What a waste of MY money (& yours & yours & yours). I'm damned mad. :mad:

[Sugar]

As long as I don't have to pay for it.

The point is, as far as I'm concerned is that if the state is going to mandate that every concieved pregnancy is brought to term, if they have decide that there is enough civil interest to make that call, they should be ready to truly support that.

I believe maternity leave is paid in NJ, and frankly I'm not sure how it works. Company puts up the money and then gets a tax break? Fully subsidized by the state gov't? I'll have to find out.

However, I saw a recent report discussing how bolated the defense budget is right now. How we are financially supporting both new military technology as well as cold war technology which, in many ways is obselete. How streamlining the Defense budget wouldn't leave us unprotected at all, and the savings could be huge. If half of what this report says is true, no doubt some of that money could pay for paid maternity.

Mind you I haven't worked out all the details...I'm just thinking here...

[Sugar]

How about decent affordable healthcare, too?

Yeah! There's some pro-life talk!

[David]

The point is, as far as I'm concerned is that if the state is going to mandate that every concieved pregnancy is brought to term, if they have decide that there is enough civil interest to make that call, they should be ready to truly support that.Oh I agree with that! Any politician & any "pro-lifer" lobbyist who demanded this SHOULD BE FORCED AT GUNPOINT TO PUT MONEY into those babies' bank accounts for food, clothing, shelter & college. I would support that in an instant. "Power of the gun" be damned. You sow what you reap, I say. You make your bed, you can lie in it.
However, I saw a recent report discussing how bolated the defense budget is right now. How we are financially supporting both new military technology as well as cold war technology which, in many ways is obselete. How streamlining the Defense budget wouldn't leave us unprotected at all, and the savings could be huge. Hah, yes. See my post above about the damn war & how much of MY MONEY is going to "liberate" (what a farce!) jew-haters in Iraq. As far as I'm concerned, I'm being burgled. My money is being stolen from me just as surely as if a thief ransacked my home in the night.

I don't like being stolen from. I downright hate it. :mad: :mad:

[Sorcerer386]

It's amazing. There's a limited amount of public money, & instead of using what there is for things like medicine & vaccines against the bird flu & filling potholes in the streets so that we don't have to get new axles on our cars every time we drive to the market, we spend billions or trillions over there in the Mideast deserts, cocking around with tanks & fighter jets, like a big game of Battleship that lasts year after year.

the party in power tells me that I'm helping "liberate" the "people of Iraq" -- WHY?!! Why should MY money be spent on some amorphous mass conveniently known as "the people of Iraq"?! I don't hold down a job to LIBERATE so-and-so on the other side of the world!! (especially people that would kill me in an instant if they had the chance) I hold down a job to FILL THE DAMN POTHOLES IN THE STREETS THAT I USE!!! :mad: :mad:

What a waste of MY money (& yours & yours & yours). I'm damned mad. :mad:

My thoughts EXACTLY David. I could see helping Iraq if the U.S. was completely sound and stable, but that's HARDLY the case (insert "duh" remark here). :thumbsup:

[irishgrl]

the only way to stop it is by voting. ALL of us. get these nutjobs OUT of power ASAP. I will be forever sorry that the ERA didnt pass. Maybe we need to re-think that idea....

[David]

the only way to stop it is by voting. ALL of us. get these nutjobs OUT of power ASAP.We need to either vote those bastards out for good or kill them. But I don't want to expand on that idea because I don't want the Patriot Act coming to get me to haul me off to the hoosegow at 3 a.m.

[Keith]

i was ridin' the subway a month or so ago, and there was an anti-choice rally happenin' in town. I overheard a conversation stating that once Roe vs. Wade is overturned, then abortions will stop. ah.. the clueless.

Abortion is a lot like prostitution, pot smoking, etc... you can make it illegal by law, but it still is gonna take place. I remember once watching this cable special where they actually filmed an abortion, and I must admit, when the fetus was sucked out, it made me feel so very sad. I mean, it is a living thing. But, I think this very hard and extremely difficult decision must come from the individual, not the government.

also, for all those folk who always spout "adoption" not abortion like the Bushies.. well, how many orphans have you adopted? Come on Bush.. you have the finances.. and there are many unwanted kids in this country that could use a loving family.. wait a minute, on second thought.. please don't adopt.. you know nothing about love.

[DavidMn]

i was ridin' the subway a month or so ago, and there was an anti-choice rally happenin' in town. I overheard a conversation stating that once Roe vs. Wade is overturned, then abortions will stop. ah.. the clueless.

Abortion is a lot like prostitution, pot smoking, etc... you can make it illegal by law, but it still is gonna take place. I remember once watching this cable special where they actually filmed an abortion, and I must admit, when the fetus was sucked out, it made me feel so very sad. I mean, it is a living thing. But, I think this very hard and extremely difficult decision must come from the individual, not the government.

also, for all those folk who always spout "adoption" not abortion like the Bushies.. well, how many orphans have you adopted? Come on Bush.. you have the finances.. and there are many unwanted kids in this country that could use a loving family.. wait a minute, on second thought.. please don't adopt.. you know nothing about love.Well, that just shows their ignorance.