Most Unpopular Opinions About Lindsey [Archive]

lagringader&r

03-06-2006, 12:53 AM

Do I dare start a thread I can't finish? Well it was posted over on Stevie's forum so here's a starter for Buck's. I don't know as much about him so this list will be shorter.

1. I think the one thing Stevie and Lindsey have in common is insecurity. I think Lindsey is one of the most skittish and frightened people on the face of the planet. The two of them together? I'm surprised they made it more than a month.

2. I think Lindsey thinks he is still a wannabe rock star. In his mind, I don't think he's ever fully gotten that he made it. He's still trying to prove himself worthy and I don't think FM counts, in his opinion. For him, he needs to make it as a solo artist. That hasn't happened. That is also why it takes him a decade or more to release anything. Fear of failure again. I think Lindsey has never known how good he is. He's always trying to live up to those experimental standards and has failed every time, which is what makes him a *wannabe* or second-rate in his mind. Despite his millions and his fame, he still looks at himself as a struggling artist.
And always will

3. I think Lindsey is about as happy as someone with his mindset can be. Self-torture is his inspiration but the wife and family are great covers to the outside world. I think Lindsey needs and takes more than his fair share outside of that.
And then some

4. I think Lindsey is about as egotistical and at the same time, insecure, as someone can get. He's a little boy in the fetal position on the floor crying for someone's attention. But because he's so full of himself, he hasn't dealt with it and hides behind himself both in private and in public.

5. I think Lindsey is uncomfortable with compliments.

6. I think Lindsey will release a solo album sometime but only one more and if and when it does come out, he will kick himself in the ass for it not being what he wanted. That will then push him into endless touring with no new material with FM till they all drop.

7. I think Lindsey loves himself more than he could ever love another human being.
He also hates himself

8. I think Tusk is brilliant and he should have stuck to his guns.
This one might not be so unpopular

9. I think Say You Will was a disappointment to Lindsey and he blames himself for its borderline failure. He also blames the others for not going along with him and his vision.
Secretly, I think he loves Say You Will

And last but not least:

10. I think Lindsey is one big walking contradiction.

face of glass

03-06-2006, 01:52 AM

Lindsey's biggest critics are his fans, but especially:

a) those who prefer Stevie and are fed up with every claim that Lindsey was a big part in making Stevie successful

b) those who love 95% or more of what Fleetwood Mac has put out and are fed up with every claim that Lindsey Buckingham made Fleetwood Mac what it is

c) those who are just doing it in order to be goofy

Ok, now to the man himself.

Lindsey is the modern day Don Quijote. Just think about it; he's so full of himself and his philosophies (just like Don Quijote was obsessed with his knight etiquette and his preachings of how one should live one's life) that he's willing to repeat them till the end of the world without noticing that most people around him are just laughing at him.

I do think they let things get "physical and ugly" at that driveway in 1987. I also think it wasn't the only time something like that happened. But in my mind the biggest hurt was done to both through words, not through physical actions.

Agreed with Sue on #10 completely. The same man who lets his chest hair show openly to women is also a total nerd.

"Steal Your Heart Away" is utter crap.

The rhythm section production on Out Of The Cradle suits the songs just fine; if it was given a so-called "real" rhythm section a lot of the feel of the songs would be lost; IMO.

"Family Man" is a masterpiece (while most just think it's utter crap or very good or something in between).

Lindsey should still be using a Fairlight with the 8 bit sampling rate in order to make everything sound more rock and roll. But then, who's to say he isn't using it?

Oh damn, I'm running out of time now. Better hurry up.

Lindsey is an utterly childish person in his life, emotions and music. And I wouldn't want him any other way.

Sahara

03-06-2006, 04:15 PM

The 'fro was not cool....

The Tango hair, on the other hand, was. :thumbsup:

I don't understand Tusk. At all. Sorry.

I'll think of more.

strandinthewind

03-06-2006, 04:18 PM

I think he is insanely jealous of people he sees as a threat of some kind. I think he was, and in some way still is, so jealous of La Nicks and her popularity and apparent ease in her own talent that it eats him up inside, esp. considering they still care deeply for each other on some level.

DavidMn

03-06-2006, 04:20 PM

Boots

03-06-2006, 04:24 PM

Unpopular Opinion re: Lindsey:

He helped Stevie gain the kind of success she's had. That's an unpopular opinion that I hold. If LB hadn't brought Stevie along with him when hired by FM - she would never have produced the kind of songs on the white album and Rumours and Tusk that gained her the kind of meteoric fame that she enjoyed. Without the right timing for both Lindsey and Stevie - without Lindsey being adamant about bringing Stevie into FM - without the kind of production he knew how to put into her songs - which were skelatal at best - she wouldn't be "Stevie Nicks"....yes, she may have found some success if LB ditched her for Mick's offer...but she may have been a one hit wonder....or maintained a more cult-like following.

Fame is sooooo fickle. No matter who you know, how pretty you are, or even if you have one hit record - it's difficult to sustain a career at the top. It was the staying power that FM had at that time- and the songs Stevie created with LB at the helm that helped her popularity, and gained her access to a very successful solo career in the early 80's....albeit...with different producers..but I don't think she would have been privy to those producers without the fame of Fleetwood Mac. Although he could be a real prick to her - I often understand why he was so resentful. I don't condone it - I just empathize.

Having said that...I'm not so sure Lindsey would have been as successful without her as well.

chiliD

03-06-2006, 04:32 PM

I think he is insanely jealous of people he sees as a threat of some kind.

Hence his negative comments regarding Fleetwood Mac after he left. He probably had thought that if he quit the band would dissolve. They didn't, which probably was a big reality check (or slap upside the head) to him. (and especially when they got a BETTER guitarist)

Onto my "unpopular opinions":

1) He's not one of the best guitarists in the world (in fact, he's FAR from the best guitarist in Fleetwood Mac...not even in my top 5)

2) He ruined Fleetwood Mac

amber

03-06-2006, 04:48 PM

I agree with LaGringa and LaStrandie. Also with Face of Glass on his number one, two, and the last one. (not counting A,B,C).
Maybe those aren't such unpopular opinions.

madformac

03-06-2006, 05:11 PM

Hence his negative comments regarding Fleetwood Mac after he left. He probably had thought that if he quit the band would dissolve. They didn't, which probably was a big reality check (or slap upside the head) to him. (and especially when they got a BETTER guitarist)

He underestimated the fighting spirit this band has to go on. They went through, IMO, a far bigger crisis when Peter left so they could handle it and move on. He couldn't.

1) He's not one of the best guitarists in the world (in fact, he's FAR from the best guitarist in Fleetwood Mac...not even in my top 5)

I would disagree in terms of his technical proficiency but I would agree in terms of his purely playing "emotion". He doesn't set something off in my heart the way Peter, Clapton, Knopfler etc do. But I do admire his skills.

2) He ruined Fleetwood Mac

I think that was a somewhat combined effort. You could argue they gave Lindsey too much power in terms of defining the music. I have a theory that when Lindsey lost the 'fro he lost some of his abilities for some reason. I watched some of his work on the Largo '75 gig the other night and was shocked at how fresh and great he played and sung.

madformac

03-06-2006, 05:13 PM

I agree with LaGringa and LaStrandie. Also with Face of Glass on his number one, two, and the last one. (not counting A,B,C).
Maybe those aren't such unpopular opinions.

Amber's on the Buckingham forum! :blob2: :blob1: :laugh:

I thought my eyes deceived me!

Red

03-06-2006, 06:37 PM

Hmm, well as far as unpopular opinions go, I'd say he was completely 100% right in his behavior on the DR doc, re: threatening to take the masters and keep them as his solo album. Completely justified.

I think we all know he's whiny, self indulgent, egocentric and never satisfied, so I don't think that makes them unpopular opinions. However, I totally adore him despite (and maybe because of) all those "attributes"...so is that unpopular?...:laugh:

Nicks Fan

03-06-2006, 07:22 PM

My thoughts are that he is a perfectionist. He needs to stop worrying about what the critics will think and just make the kind of music that he wants. at this point no matter what he puts out it will likely flop but at least us die hard fans would buy it and hopefully enjoy it.

As for SYW I thought that it was the best album they had produced since Tango. I liked the time album and Behind the Mask ,but I also found that of the three albums SYW had the least amount of songs I tend to skip over. The one complaint that I would have to make is that the album lacked a true sense of togetherness. It never felt that everybody was 100% behind the project and Stevies comments in those recent articles. also confirm my thoughts.

My feeling is that the band needs to pack it in. This business about touring next year with no new material to support is lame. The SYW tour sucked because it was like one big musical orchestra backing a band that was playing the same shop worn hits they had done to the death on every other tour. If the album was meant to reinvent the band the tour didn't reflect that at all. A fresher set list and no orchestra would have been alot better.

I actually think that the Henley Nicks show in Philly was 10x better then the Toronto Fm show in 2003.

eclipse

03-06-2006, 08:38 PM

I think he needs to stop, stop, stop... analizing EVERYTHING to death... and being SO, SO interlectual, big word, big thoughts, intense discussions with whover will listen ---that he can sometimes come off as rather a borish man and rather a snob with too many words and not enough heart, to back it up... (Maybe that is why Stevie is always walking out on him...)
Perhaps, he should just try being simply, Lindsey!
You remember him? If you are an oldert fan...sure you do!!
The guitarist/writer/ producer that was with and sharing a personal; as well as professional life with Stevie...

Of course that was before he joined FM and became "famous and irreplacable" (in his mind). You know of course that he was the glue that kept FM together with his clever production idesa and that "Never say Die"- attitude.
The ONE and only musician (except Mick). that was SO SO important to the band...then again reality hits and EVERYONE is replacable.

Don't get me wrong,I am a realloy big fan of Linsdey Buckinham and all he has done
I love his music and his guitar -abilities are just incredible...he just needs a few Valium to chill--- and allow himself to:
ENJOY the success he has earned rather than scorn it-
Know what I mean?

Just my 2 cents--
~eclipse~

goldustsongbird

03-06-2006, 09:41 PM

catinthedark

03-06-2006, 11:24 PM

my most unpopular opinion about Lindsey (especially around here) is that i don't think he's the hottest guy i've ever seen. :shocked: sorry....

yes, he has made me melt when he has caught my eye during a concert and smiled (and his flirty smile IS hot), but as far as the general male population goes... i've seen ever so slightly hotter.

other unpopular opinions i have about lindsey:

- while i do think he's a guitar genius, and definitely a producing genius - i just don't like every song he's ever written. people call them experimental and edgy. they just don't appeal to me ears. some of them anyway. and some of them actually make my ears hurt.

- loved the fro/hippy look. hated the new wave/too much make up look

- love The Ledge

- DO think he and stevie were a good couple. i'm a sucker for passion and the whole "can't live with, can't live without you, can't deny i want you" thing. very hot.

Red

03-07-2006, 12:20 AM

- love The Ledge

Ahh, isn't that song great? 2 blissful minutes of unabashed peppiness, even though the lyrics say otherwise.

Well here's a REALLY unpopular one - I loooooove Not That Funny. LOVE IT!! Not just the album version, but any live version, all 9 self indulgent minutes of it complete with all the whoops and screams and "love grunts". LOVE IT.

amber

03-07-2006, 01:12 AM

my most unpopular opinion about Lindsey (especially around here) is that i don't think he's the hottest guy i've ever seen. :shocked: sorry....

- loved the fro/hippy look. hated the new wave/too much make up look

- love The Ledge

Lindsey Twins! I believe we're the only two who like The Fro. I hate too much makeup/Tusk as well.
Plus, although I did find him hot when I was right in front of him (expressive eyes, good energy) I normally don't, really. He's a "you had to be there" kind of guy. Objectively I can say he's good looking, but I'm not uncontrollably drawn to him.
The Ledge is sublime.

Mari

03-07-2006, 05:54 AM

- He claims he couldn't learn how to play with a pick.. that's just LAZY, Lindsey. It's really not that hard.

- I love Family Man too. And Not That Funny. "Even" the live version.

- I don't like Go Insane (the album). I like some songs on it, but I never really got into the entire album.

- I'm really not that interested in his personality anymore. The music's enough for me. So what if he's a bit of a twat. A lot of popular musicians are :shrug: Comes with the profession :D

Madness Fades

03-07-2006, 06:20 AM

Well I think you all are a bunch of Hippocrits. There is no need to come on to a Lindsey buckingham fan site forum then create a post to to find everything thats, in your opinoin not right with the man.
nobodys perfect but, if i could play guitar 1/4 as good i would be happy. If i had 1/4 his money i'd be happy and most of all if i had had 1/4 the whirlwind rockstar life he had, i would be happy.
How does everyone know so much about him anyway he keeps such a low profile, as far a im aware he has a beautiful house a family which he loves, a big merc which i seen on DR and is back on friendly terms with the FM band.

and to correct ChilliD "Yes he is one of the best guitarists, what cant he do"

BUT DAMN LINDSEY YOU ARE SLOW AT RELEASING ALBUMS !!!!!

Mari

03-07-2006, 08:09 AM

what can't he do? Uh, play with a pick! :p

strandinthewind

03-07-2006, 08:59 AM

. . . So what if he's a bit of a twat . . . .

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I love that word :o

Mari

03-07-2006, 09:43 AM

:o I know, me too!:lol:

Madness Fades

03-07-2006, 09:52 AM

Mari what can't he do? Uh, play with a pick!

He uses a pick in the studio when he feels the need. You obviously havent watched Big Love live. Notice the strumming technique there, where's the problem. He dosent need a pick and it looks far cooler without one anyway.
That guy has spent his life mastering the guitar be careful what you critise..
nuff said...

Mari

03-07-2006, 10:08 AM

'careful'? Lol, I criticise whenever I feel like it, luv. Lighten up.
I never knew that playing with a pick or not had something to do with coolness...
anyway, I think your adoration taking no critique is equally hypocrite as the opposite.

Lindsey NEEDS his nicksfiles.. somebody please take the job!

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 10:15 AM

Ahh, isn't that song great? 2 blissful minutes of unabashed peppiness, even though the lyrics say otherwise.

Well here's a REALLY unpopular one - I loooooove Not That Funny. LOVE IT!! Not just the album version, but any live version, all 9 self indulgent minutes of it complete with all the whoops and screams and "love grunts". LOVE IT.

welcome to the happy few, red. I NEVER understood that NTF was so low appreciated. Especially when IKINW is Highly appreciated.:shrug: :shrug:

Lindsey's personality? Dunno. Never met the guy. So who cares? I love his musicianship including the tormented artist-soul. LOVE it.

Madness Fades

03-07-2006, 10:15 AM

LoL

I am lightened up, and i dont adore LB. I do however admire his Playing ability. Im not in anyway way trying to defend him but i just thought y'all were slating him a bit there.

cheers

Mari

03-07-2006, 10:18 AM

alright, that's fair ;) *shakes hands*

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 10:28 AM

what can't he do? Uh, play with a pick! :p

haha thats funny because, uh, he can.

He can but generally doesn't. He doesn't need to, doesn't want to. He has long finger nails on his picking hand and speaking from experience you can get the same tone from strumming with them. The only thing a "Pick" should hinder him with is soloing quick. He can solo quick though, he found a way round it and pretty much came up with a signature guitar sound.

A three year old could hold a pick in his hand and strum IT'S NOT HARD. On the other hand it's took me 2 years of playing for hours a day to get my fingers going so I can play most Lindsey songs. He has many rythm's going on at the same time.

I could go ONNNNN but i'm not going too.

Name a more Versatile guitarist?

Bryan

03-07-2006, 10:29 AM

My unpopulars:

1.I don't see the attraction most do with his physical appearance.It's like :confused: There are billions of males more attractive.
2.I think 'Go Insane' is one of the greatest albums ever made.
3.Family Man is brilliant.
4.I believe that he thinks he's one of the greatest musical innovators in history when really he's not
5.I think he dissed the 'Behind the Mask' lineup out of sheer jealousy.

that's about it. If I think of more,i'll edit.

Mari

03-07-2006, 10:43 AM

Uh, I play guitar myself. Used to play with just fingernails for years. Only switched to a pick on the electric the last half year, and I have to say, it is a different sound, not just for strumming (I can do more versitile strumming with fingernails, really) but for solos too. It makes playing the electric more fun for me, actually. Haven't played a lot of lindsey stuff lately, though.

Ok, so I didn't know he does use the pick occasionally now. Some quote from his stuck with me where he said something about giving up on trying to play with the pick in his early Fleetwood Mac days.
I stand corrected.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 10:49 AM

chiliD

03-07-2006, 10:56 AM

and to correct ChilliD "Yes he is one of the best guitarists, what cant he do"

Your "correction" is misguided. He's got a unique style, that's for sure; but "unique style" doesn't not equate to "best guitarist".

He can't:
1) play blues authentically

2) improvise in a band situation

3)...oh, hell, there's just too many to mention...this bores me.

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 10:57 AM

I think he's a neurotic, vain and insecure twat. (thanks mari ;) )

I hate Tango in the Night, His Productional Masterpiece....

I think OOTC is his fourth best solo-album ( GOS included at #1).

I think he didn't diss the BTM-line-up out of jealousy, but out of :eek: :eek: about the artistic poorness of the result of their studiowork. (and i agreed)

so...out of arrogance.

madformac

03-07-2006, 10:59 AM

Well I think you all are a bunch of Hippocrits. There is no need to come on to a Lindsey buckingham fan site forum then create a post to to find everything thats, in your opinoin not right with the man.

OK, I'm sure this has been posted before but I'm going to say it anyway. The whole point of a forum is for hopefully stimulating debate. If this forum was all about how good LB is it would become very boring. Like everything in life you have to have balance. Sometimes criticism is good to focus attention, especially if it is constructive. One of Lindsey's problems I believe is that he can give criticism of others but is uncomfortable about taking it. Sometimes he's even criticised others in order to make his own work look better.

How does everyone know so much about him anyway he keeps such a low profile, as far a im aware he has a beautiful house a family which he loves, a big merc which i seen on DR and is back on friendly terms with the FM band.

It's impossible to keep a truly low profile when you have been in the public eye for over 30 years. Lindsey is a hermit by nature it would seem but you can get a reasonable picture of him over time if you have enough evidence.

nobodys perfect but, if i could play guitar 1/4 as good i would be happy. If i had 1/4 his money i'd be happy and most of all if i had had 1/4 the whirlwind rockstar life he had, i would be happy.

You have to remember Paul that Lindsey has been playing guitar for 47 years. Give yourself long enough and study hard enough and you can be as good or better as a guitarist. It's a matter of desire and application.

I used to think that if I had the talent, money and rockstar life to only a small degree of what LB has I would be happy. Then, when you get it you find it's not enough and you want more. Call it greed or ambition or whatever. I think Lindsey wants more. Maybe not financially but certainly in terms of commercial success or praise.

Mari

03-07-2006, 11:08 AM

He has said that his gibson was giving him problems with fingerpicking and that he wasn't going to give up and use a pick because playing with his fingers is his style.

Not many electric players can finger pick let a lone travis pick like Lindsey. In my opinion theres nothign more borring than listen to a guy saw a guitar in half with a pick. It's totally generic and predictable. There are THOUSANDS of guitarists that strum chords out. Lindsey's style is a rarety.

boring? :shocked:

eh.. Peter Green??? Hello!?

(edit: ok, I misread that. thought you said playing with a pick was boring, not just strumming) (but I don't think strumming's necessarily boring)

I don't know, I guess I'm not so tied to LB anymore, I just enjoy music in general. What's good is good. Sometimes, let's go cryptic, what's great is not so good at all. I mean, some musicians aren't really very great on a technical level, but create the most moving music anyway.
(and that gives me hope... :lol: )

As for other more versitile guitarists, maybe we can let loose Chili on this one ;)

Bryan

03-07-2006, 11:09 AM

if i could play guitar 1/4 as good i would be happy. If i had 1/4 his money i'd be happy and most of all if i had had 1/4 the whirlwind rockstar life he had, i would be happy.
How does everyone know so much about him anyway he keeps such a low profile, as far a im aware he has a beautiful house a family which he loves, a big merc which i seen on DR

What you've said there reminds me alot of the stereotypical views of modern day Ireland. All very materialistic and status driven.Celtic Tiger and all that garbage.As if having such riches =happiness.
*shudder*Living here makes me feel tainted & wrong:lol:

madformac

03-07-2006, 11:12 AM

You obviously havent watched Big Love live. Notice the strumming technique there, where's the problem. He dosent need a pick and it looks far cooler without one anyway.
That guy has spent his life mastering the guitar be careful what you critise..
nuff said...

It's not a case of "needing a pick". Different styles and sounds require different techniques. Take Eric Clapton, Slash, David Gilmour, BB King, Mark Knopfler, Lindsey Buckingham, Eddie Van Halen. All these are the most obvious examples of differing styles and techniques. When I hear a song I know right away which of these guys is playing.

Lindsey's style and sound is based around what he does with his fingers. It sounds great and looks very interesting but it can limit you as a player too in some respects.
Lindsey uses a form similar to Travis picking, Knopfler uses his fingers too but in a totally different way. He uses the flesh a lot more and tends to stick with three fingers most of the time. Eric uses both fingers and pick depending on the song and instrument. I'm actually in awe of players that can do both. I use my fingers but would love to be able to have full control of a pick. There are certain sounds you just cannot replicate with fingers alone.

I certainly think that players such as Clapton, Hendrix, Slash and Peter Green to name just four wouldn't have sounded the way they did/do by playing any other way. It's what you feel most comfortable with and what you feel works to express yourself in the best way.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 11:17 AM

As for other more versitile guitarists, maybe we can let loose Chili on this one ;)

Eric Clapton
Rick Vito
Bob Welch
Mark Knopfler
Warren Haynes
Doyle Bramhall II
Keith Richards
Paul McCartney (yeah, he's known as a bass player, but he's an incredibly versatile guitarist, as well)
Larry Carlton
Lee Ritenour

I could go on...but it would be pointless...there's your examples.

madformac

03-07-2006, 11:18 AM

Name a more Versatile guitarist?

In fingerpicking style? Andreas Sergovia and Tommy Emmanuel spring to mind.

Mark Knopfler in terms of styles. He can play Jazz, Blues, Rock, Country and improvise within those "boundaries" and he can mix them too.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 11:21 AM

...about the artistic poorness of the result of their studiowork. (and i agreed)

Earwax build-up strikes again.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 11:29 AM

boring? :shocked:

eh.. Peter Green??? Hello!?

I don't know, I guess I'm not so tied to LB anymore, I just enjoy music in general. What's good is good. Sometimes, let's go cryptic, what's great is not so good at all. I mean, some musicians aren't really very great on a technical level, but create the most moving music anyway.

As for other more versitile guitarists, maybe we can let loose Chili on this one ;)

Peter Green is more of a "playing through the blues sales" Guitarist than a "strummer".

I listen to many other guitarists than Lindsey but my technique is mostly influenced by him. It's far more intresting and unique to listen to than say, the hundred millin hendrix wannabes that shread all the time.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 11:33 AM

It's far more intresting and unique to listen to than say, the hundred millin hendrix wannabes that shread all the time.

Hmmm..."shred" & "Hendrix" doesn't really compute. I would never use the "shred" adjective regarding the way Hendrix played. It seems to me the originator of the "shred" mentality...the blame should be firmly cast upon Eddie Van Halen (and to some extent Randy Rhodes, too)...I think that's where that particular guitar playing abomination started.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 11:33 AM

In fingerpicking style? Andreas Sergovia and Tommy Emmanuel spring to mind.

Mark Knopfler in terms of styles. He can play Jazz, Blues, Rock, Country and improvise within those "boundaries" and he can mix them too.

I've heard Tommy but no Andreas. Tommy is very good yes but Lindsey combines his palying with popular quirky song playing. Lindsey Travis picking explores other styles like rock, country, folf, flamenco calssical (in a way with Go Insane) the 80's pop, bit of blues in the earlier days. He also has the ability to mould his technique fittingly into other songwriters songs.

Eric Clapton
Rick Vito
Bob Welch
Mark Knopfler
Warren Haynes
Doyle Bramhall II
Keith Richards
Paul McCartney (yeah, he's known as a bass player, but he's an incredibly versatile guitarist, as well)
Larry Carlton
Lee Ritenour

All the guitarists you mentioned are very good player (Apart from McCartney who is absoloute TRIPE. Great songwriter, singer but the guy can't play guitar to save his life)

chiliD

03-07-2006, 11:37 AM

All the guitarists you mentioned are very good player (Apart from McCartney who is absoloute TRIPE. Great songwriter, singer but the guy can't play guitar to save his life)

Listen harder to McCartney's technique...but then you're already got a "wall o' bias" cemented in your ear canals, so never mind.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 11:38 AM

Hmmm..."shred" & "Hendrix" doesn't really compute. I would never use the "shred" adjective regarding the way Hendrix played. It seems to me the originator of the "shred" mentality...the blame should be firmly cast upon Eddie Van Halen (and to some extent Randy Rhodes, too)...I think that's where that particular guitar playing abomination started.

Hendrix' highly distorted quick solos, where for the time very innotive and theres no denying it. However I think he is THE most overrated guitar player of all time. The most influencial at the same time but he really wasn't what he's cut out to be. It's been years since hendrix yet I still hear his style in all these generic bands today, frankly it's boring.

PS no disrespect to Hendrix it wasn't his fault people copied him and he even said himself soemthing like "People are getting so good at copying me they copy my mistakes." Hendrix would be the first to admit that he was a slopppy player.

madformac

03-07-2006, 11:43 AM

He has said that his gibson was giving him problems with fingerpicking and that he wasn't going to give up and use a pick because playing with his fingers is his style.

I think it was more a case of the sound of the Les Paul wasn't defined enough to cut through the drums and bass as much as he needed. Les Paul's are great lead guitars but are very muddy sounding as rhythm instruments. Combine this with a fingerpicking style with multiple note strikes in a short amount of time and what you get is a sonic mess. Les Pauls are fine to fingerpick interms of hand position because you do get good clearance with the picking hand, unlike say a Strat.

It's totally generic and predictable. There are THOUSANDS of guitarists that strum chords out. Lindsey's style is a rarety.

Well that is your opinion. I wouldn't say David Gilmour or Hendrix or Clapton was generic and predictable. I would say the thousands of players that have copied the style are the generic ones. As Sheryl Crow wrote "You're an original baby, turn around and you're lookin at a hundred more."

David

03-07-2006, 11:48 AM

None of you guys (sorry, Mari) mention Christopher Parkening, my favorite guitarist. :mad: :mad:

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 11:49 AM

Listen harder to McCartney's technique...but then you're already got a "wall o' bias" cemented in your ear canals, so never mind.

I listen to the beatles regulary and I trully respect McCartney (not as a person, I got caught up in the whole McCartney jumps on Lennons grave thing) but as a musician I think he's great. Simply though he is NOT a good guitarist and LB is a LOT better. Off course If you could list a few songs for me to go away and listen to I will off course give him the benfit of the doubt.

The Nisse

03-07-2006, 11:55 AM

which probably was a big reality check (or slap upside the head) to him. (and especially when they got a BETTER guitarist)

Actually, I don't think he sees it that way. I've seen in several interviews that he was amused that they needed two guitarists to replace him. But, he did say (about the Time-period) that they were "dragging the name to the ground"..

Off course If you could list a few songs for me to go away and listen to I will off course give him the benfit of the doubt.

One comes to mind. 'Yesterday'..

madformac

03-07-2006, 11:58 AM

Peter Green is more of a "playing through the blues sales" Guitarist than a "strummer".

I listen to many other guitarists than Lindsey but my technique is mostly influenced by him. It's far more intresting and unique to listen to than say, the hundred millin hendrix wannabes that shread all the time.

Peter Green was more rooted in the blues than most of the other "star" players of the time. Peter also had a great feeling. This is what differentiates players such as EC, Green and company from others, including Lindsey. If you have a feeling for the music then you can improvise without fail. Peter used to be the most classic example of this and today Clapton is. If you get thrown into a situation where you essentially need to jam then this separates the men from the boys. The Crossroads guitar festival from a couple of years back was a good example of this. You had Clapton, BB King, Buddy Guy and Jimmie Vaughan all bouncing notes of each other. Put a group of men like these guys together and they can improvise all night without dropping a bum note. If you think Lindsey can you need to take a closer look at his work. I think one of the most recent examples was Murrow from his Soundstage performance whn instead of coming up with a nice little solo he stuck half of "I'm So Afraid" in there instead...

It's good that you listen to other guitarists and that you have found, in Lindsey, someone you can identify with. But, If you look at Lindsey's own influences you will see they are many. You can't grow as a player if you are channelled. It's a bit like religion, if you only believe what one faith says then you can become somewhat blinkered.

madformac

03-07-2006, 12:00 PM

Actually, I don't think he sees it that way. I've seen in several interviews that he was amused that they needed two guitarists to replace him. But, he did say (about the Time-period) that they were "dragging the name to the ground"..

Steve, do you want to give your legendary reply to this old chestnut or would you like me to do it? :laugh:

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 12:01 PM

I think it was more a case of the sound of the Les Paul wasn't defined enough to cut through the drums and bass as much as he needed. Les Paul's are great lead guitars but are very muddy sounding as rhythm instruments. Combine this with a fingerpicking style with multiple note strikes in a short amount of time and what you get is a sonic mess. Les Pauls are fine to fingerpick interms of hand position because you do get good clearance with the picking hand, unlike say a Strat.

To be fair I have NEVER played a Les Paul :eek: but I think your probably right. You mentioned about Lindsey being part of the rhythm section, This is another reason I love his technique. It's subtle yet great in some instances. Shows that great guitar playing doesn’t always have to be smack bang in your face.

I love my Strat, I think it’s a really comfortable instrument (including finger picking) The only problem, well not really a problem just a preference I have with it (and it doesn’t include my picking hand) I find the neck is a little too thin.

Well that is your opinion. I wouldn't say David Gilmour or Hendrix or Clapton was generic and predictable. I would say the thousands of players that have copied the style are the generic ones. As Sheryl Crow wrote "You're an original baby, turn around and you're lookin at a hundred more."

No there not generic at all, I wasn't aiming anythign at them. I was simply saying LB is FAR more apealing to me than all these hendrix wannabes that are everwhere. (i'm actually a fan of Hendrix so don't get me wrong)

Considering Hendrix was still alive I think that Lindsey could have a better go at playing "all along the watchtower" than Jimi could have at "say goodbye" In this way I'd say LB is more versitile. Plus he has the upper hand on production, vocals and songwriting.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 12:04 PM

Actually, I don't think he sees it that way. I've seen in several interviews that he was amused that they needed two guitarists to replace him. But, he did say (about the Time-period) that they were "dragging the name to the ground"..

I agree. I think he was more disapointed they would carry on without him than jellous. Lindsey has never been about the mass success (Tusk) he's more intrested in doing his own experimental thing.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:05 PM

Actually, I don't think he sees it that way. I've seen in several interviews that he was amused that they needed two guitarists to replace him. But, he did say (about the Time-period) that they were "dragging the name to the ground"..

Like he's one to talk.

And, again, they didn't NEED two guitarists to replace him...they just happened to GET two guitarists; mainly, to fill out the sound that was so painfully thin during Lindsey's...{ahem}...reign. I mean, look, he had to get his own roadie to play 2nd guitar it was so thin.

Let's see, Lindsey publicly disparages the then current lineup of Fleetwood Mac, but it was Fleetwood Mac themselves actually being a working, thriving band that was "dragging the name to the ground"??? ...what a pompous asshole.

Steve, do you want to give your legendary reply to this old chestnut or would you like me to do it? :laugh:
Chime in, Justin...please

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:08 PM

None of you guys (sorry, Mari) mention Christopher Parkening, my favorite guitarist. :mad: :mad:

What about Leona Boyd? Wes Montgomery? Charlie Christian?

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:09 PM

I agree. I think he was more disapointed they would carry on without him than jellous. Lindsey has never been about the mass success (Tusk) he's more intrested in doing his own experimental thing.

Again, he should just go off into his little cave and play with himself...let Fleetwood Mac be Fleetwood Mac.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 12:14 PM

Again, he should just go off into his little cave and play with himself...let Fleetwood Mac be Fleetwood Mac.

Say you Will is better than anything that came out since he left the band. I always saw Rick Vito as just a cover guitarist to play Lindsey songs during the Tango tour (which I HATED.) In my opinion Rick should never have been in Fleetwood Mac.

Lindsey was truly the backbone to say you will so therefore staying in his cave would be a bad decision if you ask me.

madformac

03-07-2006, 12:17 PM

Considering Hendrix was still alive I think that Lindsey could have a better go at playing "all along the watchtower" than Jimi could have at "say goodbye" In this way I'd say LB is more versitile. Plus he has the upper hand on production, vocals and songwriting.

Well, it's difficult to know really. Jimi did a pretty good version of All Along The Watchtower compared to Dylan.

Jimi was a guitarist first and foremost. With modern technology you find many artists performing a jack of all trades mentality with their work.

Going back to an earlier point I do think Jimi is overrated. Not in terms of what he did at the time which was pretty revolutionary, I would say in the same way Robert Johnson was considered revolutionary. But he suffers from the problem of being dead and dying when he was at the top of his game (as did Johnson) In my opinion Eric Clapton is the greatest guitarist of all time. I base this on the length of his career and the fact he has been at the forefront of guitar for five decades. Eric was the first big player to use a wah pedal, before Jimi. Eric pushed the boundaries in the sixties with Jimi, Eric partnered with Duane Allman (another genius who suffers from the "dead" issue), Eric came back in the eighties combining synth pop with guitar to great effect. He reinvented himself with his unplugged era in the early nineties and he still continues on, changing, adapting and playing.

Clapton does not get the respect he is due because he has the unfortunate problem of being alive and well and still producing music.

I do give Lindsey credit for not sticking to the same formula through the years but as I pointed out in another thread, you can't be as experimental as he has been and expect to be popular too.... Unless you are Eric Clapton. :laugh:

Gazza

03-07-2006, 12:21 PM

Your "correction" is misguided. He's got a unique style, that's for sure; but "unique style" doesn't not equate to "best guitarist".

In my view it does. What's the point in playing like everyone else? To be truly great you've got to carve out your own style and sound, surely.

He can't:
1) play blues authentically

Who gives a ****? He finds the blues boring, and frankly so do I. Jeff Beck can't play jazz as far as I'm concerned, but I still think he's one of the best rock players ever.

2) improvise in a band situation

3)...oh, hell, there's just too many to mention...this bores me.

You're just stuck in a blues rut imo.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:22 PM

Say you Will is better than anything that came out since he left the band.

That's just opinion. Cool that you like the album.
I always saw Rick Vito as just a cover guitarist to play Lindsey songs during the Tango tour (which I HATED.) In my opinion Rick should never have been in Fleetwood Mac.

Then you obviously know absolutely nothing about Rick Vito...and you obviously are more closed-minded than you admit to.

Lindsey was truly the backbone to say you will so therefore staying in his cave would be a bad decision if you ask me.

Considering "Say You Will" was once again a Lindsey Buckingham solo album that he shared half of with Stevie and slapped the Fleetwood Mac label on it, then, yeah, its a big "duh" that he was the "backbone"...he was also the brain, the bowels & lymph glands of it, too. But, to call it a Fleetwood Mac album? ****, give me 100 more Time albums.

David

03-07-2006, 12:25 PM

What about Leona Boyd? Wes Montgomery? Charlie Christian?All a bunch of pussies.

Christopher Parkening RAWKS!!!!

madformac

03-07-2006, 12:27 PM

Let's see, Lindsey publicly disparages the then current lineup of Fleetwood Mac, but it was Fleetwood Mac themselves actually being a working, thriving band that was "dragging the name to the ground"??? ...what a pompous asshole.

Fleetwood Mac with Burnette and Vito were a damn good band and it seems from what I have heard of Vito's playing in recent months that he was stifled in the band. It's easy to sit and throw stones at something. Mick and John needed a band to work, they have always gone on with the band no matter who left. The only time I saw Fleetwood Mac as selling out was with Dave Mason, not his fault but he never should have been there.

Lindsey didn't need to work. He could afford to sit in his garage going over one song a thousand times to get it right without worry. Mick and John didn't have that luxury.

Chime in, Justin...please

I originally thought the same thing about two guitarist to replace one but it's just not the case. Now you have Fleetwood Mac with three (four if you count Brett Tuggle) guitarists on stage at once.. So if Lindsey thought it took two to replace him then, he should realise it takes two more to support him now... He can be very contradictory.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 12:27 PM

Peter Green was more rooted in the blues than most of the other "star" players of the time. Peter also had a great feeling. This is what differentiates players such as EC, Green and company from others, including Lindsey. If you have a feeling for the music then you can improvise without fail. Peter used to be the most classic example of this and today Clapton is. If you get thrown into a situation where you essentially need to jam then this separates the men from the boys. The Crossroads guitar festival from a couple of years back was a good example of this. You had Clapton, BB King, Buddy Guy and Jimmie Vaughan all bouncing notes of each other. Put a group of men like these guys together and they can improvise all night without dropping a bum note. If you think Lindsey can you need to take a closer look at his work. I think one of the most recent examples was Murrow from his Soundstage performance whn instead of coming up with a nice little solo he stuck half of "I'm So Afraid" in there instead...

I think Lindsey not being able to improvise so much is due to his lack of theory.

On a U2 video I own there the song with BB king I find hilarious at the start when he says something like “I’m horrible with chords. Please don’t let me pay chords” I couldn’t tell if he was being serious are not. He’s an incredible payer a real icon and a great character is BB king but he truly shines when he’s playing his blues. Similarly Lindsey shines when he is playing his Travis picking. You can argue all day who’s better than who but the styles are so different it’s hard to compare.

I think Lindsey is a lot better than some people on here are making him out to be. He is certainly technically better than McCartney, better artistically and original than Rick friggin Vito etc etc.

It's good that you listen to other guitarists and that you have found, in Lindsey, someone you can identify with. But, If you look at Lindsey's own influences you will see they are many. You can't grow as a player if you are channelled. It's a bit like religion, if you only believe what one faith says then you can become somewhat blinkered.

I have my own influences and I’m no hugely into Lindsey’s (I do love the beach boys and Kingston trio though) It is defiantly good to open up and take influences from all genres. Which is basically what I was trying to get across before. I have heard so many Hendrix/slash wannabes it sends me to sleep. People don’t realise that there are many more great guitar players out there but just because they don’t solo really loud doesn’t make them lesser.

David

03-07-2006, 12:28 PM

In my opinion Eric Clapton is the greatest guitarist of all time. What about Christopher Parkening?

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:30 PM

I do give Lindsey credit for not sticking to the same formula through the years but as I pointed out in another thread, you can't be as experimental as he has been and expect to be popular too....

Lindsey? Experimental? :lol: Ok, he did one quasi-"experimental" album in 1979 and now he's tagged with that forever? No, he's NOT "experimental". He came up with "a sound" 25-30 years ago and he's been re-writing those four songs ever since.

I originally thought the same thing about two guitarist to replace one but it's just not the case. Now you have Fleetwood Mac with three (four if you count Brett Tuggle) guitarists on stage at once.. So if Lindsey thought it took two to replace him then, he should realise it takes two more to support him now... He can be very contradictory.

Let's not forget that Lindsey NEEDED four ADDITIONAL guitarists for his solo band. And he was mocking Fleetwood Mac for adding TWO after he left? The guy's a f***ing nut-job.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:34 PM

What about Christopher Parkening?

He doesn't play blues, he's no good.

:lol:

David

03-07-2006, 12:36 PM

The only time I saw Fleetwood Mac as selling out was with Dave Mason, not his fault but he never should have been there. He was incredibly bad at Konocti Harbor Spa & Resort FM concerts in 1994 & 1995. Boredom was written all over his face. In addition (or subtraction), his contributions to "Time" were a mix of yogurt & milk.

Bekka was sexy, though. And Billy I have always found winning -- he is self-depreciating & low-key (except when he hams up the vocal on "Oh Well," which is deplorable -- there is no emotional connection to the drive & the animus of the song; it's only grandstanding). The other cool thing about Billy, something that informs his personality from top to bottom, is that of all the people who joined the band in later years, he was the one who had by far the most love & respect for the group in all its incarnations: Green, Kirwan, Welch, Buckingham, Nicks, McVie ... he loved them all.

It was fun seeing the pre-Time band play live because it was so totally antithetical to the Mac Machine atmosphere of the previous twenty years, & I have always wanted Fleetwood Mac to move in the direction of being a little band again, playing supper clubs & little outdoor festivals in the Sierra Nevada foothills. It's a childhood-stirred comfort to me.

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 12:39 PM

Considering "Say You Will" was once again a Lindsey Buckingham solo album that he shared half of with Stevie and slapped the Fleetwood Mac label on it, then, yeah, its a big "duh" that he was the "backbone"...he was also the brain, the bowels & lymph glands of it, too. But, to call it a Fleetwood Mac album? ****, give me 100 more Time albums.

As said on DR John has been more present on that album than any other. Mick drummed on all the songs.

Yes it was going to be a solo project and the songs where wrote for a solo project but Mick was present durring the early stages of this solo project. So if it's not a Fleetwood Mac album then what is? Certainly not the time (see below)

Lindsey didn't need to work. He could afford to sit in his garage going over one song a thousand times to get it right without worry. Mick and John didn't have that luxury.

The band was continuing because of Mick's debt? how can albums that came out durring this period have more "Fleetwood Mac album" status than Say you will? The abnd where continuing palying Rumours songs onstage without a key member who contributed and wrote a lot of the songs. Fleetwood Mac then where a selfish money making band. The albums where not "fleetwood Mac albums" if we use your logic.

This is the key difference between Fleetwood Mac today with Lindsey present to The Fleetwood Mac then. Just my opinion off course.

David

03-07-2006, 12:39 PM

He doesn't play blues, he's no good.

:lol:You're like my pal Brian Danks. You ol' blues-heads, you! (Actually, Brian is also a jazz-head)

Hey, let's go to the two-day jazz festival at the Hollywood Bowl!! Actually, I want to go just the second day---McCoy Tyner to play!!! Brian will freak out. C'mon Steve let's go!!!

The Nisse

03-07-2006, 12:40 PM

Lindsey didn't need to work. He could afford to sit in his garage going over one song a thousand times to get it right without worry. Mick and John didn't have that luxury.

Did John also use all his money..? I think John just like playing and just kept doing so..

He came up with "a sound" 25-30 years ago and he's been re-writing those four songs ever since.

Hell, everybody does that..

Bob Dylan: "I've only written four songs in my whole life, but I've written those four songs a million times."

chiliD

03-07-2006, 12:41 PM

I think Lindsey not being able to improvise so much is due to his lack of theory.

BS! It has nothing to do with "theory". It's his "disorder"...his OCD. He'd have to be locked away with a straight jacket in 5 minutes if he were to "sit-in" with either the Allman Bros or Grateful Dead. He's boxed himself into a little "comfort zone" that he'd just breakdown into a puddle of slobbering goo if he got outside of. Lindsey an "experimental guitarist"? HA! That's a myth!

I think Lindsey is a lot better than some people on here are making him out to be. He is certainly technically better than McCartney, better artistically and original than Rick friggin Vito etc etc.
Tripe like this isn't worth further comment.

madformac

03-07-2006, 12:41 PM

I think Lindsey not being able to improvise so much is due to his lack of theory.

I don't agree with that sentiment. Eric never learned theory or did Slash and David Gilmour has only started reading music in the last 3 years...

I believe I can jam with the best of them, I really do, certainly in a blues environment. I'm not big headed or even a great technical player but I have the ear, the timing and the emotion to do it. I don't know any theory, I can't read music and I don't really want to, I'm not even great with chords. Noel Gallagher said recently that playing a guitar is like being an artist, you can't teach it, you either have it or you don't. it's in the feeling, the way you play a note.

Music theory can give you great discipline and understanding but it also stops you from being original. I think this is more the case with Lindsey, as it is with EC and Gilmour too. They had to figure it out and experiment by themselves. They played along to the records of their heros and adapted it to fit how they played. A music teacher cannot give you the feeling. I think maybe some theory and a little lack of discipline too is a good balance.

David

03-07-2006, 12:43 PM

Hey, this thread is hopping!

Now THIS is what a message board is supposed to be!! :blob2: :blob2: :blob1: :blob1: :woohoo: :woohoo: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :mad: :mad:

David

03-07-2006, 12:53 PM

I believe I can jam with the best of them, I really do, certainly in a blues environment. I'm not big headed or even a great technical player but I have the ear, the timing and the emotion to do it. I don't know any theory, I can't read music and I don't really want to, I'm not even great with chords. Noel Gallagher said recently that playing a guitar is like being an artist, you can't teach it, you either have it or you don't. it's in the feeling, the way you play a note.I'm the opposite of you. I am all about theory, reading staff notation, etc., but I have absolutely no style & no emotion of my own.
Music theory can give you great discipline and understanding but it also stops you from being original.I don't think this is true at all. The only people who say this (& they say this a lot, like Lindsey saying it about Javier Pacheco) are the people who don't happen to have a theory background or who don't read notation. I doubt that anyone with theory & reading ability has ever said anything like this, so that is an indication right there that the opinion is an extremely one-sided one. But it also just doesn't hold water when you look at the musicians & composers who do have such a background. Beethoven read notation for every instrument in the orchestra, wrote notation for every instrument in the orchestra, & was thoroughly grounded in the music theory of the era, including harmony, counterpoint, fugue, subjects, countersubjects, melodic elaboration, chorale, fragmentation, structural functions, inversions, Viennese Classical development, Baroque development, orative, non-orative, all aspects of polyphony & homophony, motives, supermotives, submotives, & on & on & on to practically infinity.

Beethoven had no trouble whatsoever being original.

Knowledge -- whether it be scientific knowledge, musical knowledge or moral knowledge -- opens doors, not shuts them.

madformac

03-07-2006, 12:54 PM

Hey, this thread is hopping!

Now THIS is what a message board is supposed to be!! :blob2: :blob1: :blob1: :woohoo: :woohoo: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :mad: :mad:

I quite agree David... This is the best thread, from a musical point of view, i've read for ages. :)

chiliD

03-07-2006, 01:01 PM

Beethoven had no trouble whatsoever being original.

Of course if you can't hear anything, whatever you do is going to be original. I'm surprised that his stuff wasn't more dissonant! :lol:

Knowledge -- whether it be scientific knowledge, musical knowledge or moral knowledge -- opens doors, not shuts them.

Oh, stop it...now you're just showing off. :mad: :laugh:

madformac

03-07-2006, 01:08 PM

I don't think this is true at all. The only people who say this (& they say this a lot, like Lindsey saying it about Javier Pacheco) are the people who don't happen to have a theory background or who don't read notation.

Well I guess I fit in here! :laugh:

I doubt that anyone with theory & reading ability has ever said anything like this, so that is an indication right there that the opinion is an extremely one-sided one. But it also just doesn't hold water when you look at the musicians & composers who do have such a background.

Well I said a mix was good. If you purely stick to theory you are playing within musical boundaries. How many guitarists out there have learned theory from a teacher and can play songs very well yet cannot improvise when needed. I'd like to know every guitar scale and chord but I don't have the time or patience to learn. I find stuff by accident at times which only gives me more passion to play. Being stuck in a learning environment is stuffy and clinical with no room for lateral movement. I'm sure you can tell I hated school and teachers that had no spiritual content. :blob1:

madformac

03-07-2006, 01:09 PM

Of course if you can't hear anything, whatever you do is going to be original. I'm surprised that his stuff wasn't more dissonant! :lol:

:blob2: :] :blob1: :] :laugh: :laugh:

Chester

03-07-2006, 01:11 PM

Music theory can give you great discipline and understanding but it also stops you from being original.
Echoing what David said, it most certainly does not stop you from being original. What stops learn-ed musicians from being original is their own discomfort with being original. Often times, the stuck up, proper, high society types that a lot of trained musicians are, are the type of people that don't like experimental music and aren't particularly interested in being unique. Broad generalization of course. Musicians with the non-conformist personalities tend to do music their own way and don't seek out teachers to tell them what to do. So the lack of originality comes long before learning to the music theory.
In fact, learning all the theory rules can give you many ideas on how to break the rules and do new things. I speak from experience.

madformac

03-07-2006, 01:12 PM

Echoing what David said, it most certainly does not stop you from being original. What stops learn-ed musicians from being original is their own discomfort with being original. Often times, the stuck up, proper, high society types that a lot of trained musicians are, are the type of people that don't like experimental music and aren't particularly interested in being unique. Broad generalization of course. Musicians with the non-conformist personalities tend to do music their own way and don't seek out teachers to tell them what to do. So the lack of originality comes long before learning to the music theory.
In fact, learning all the theory rules can give you many ideas on how to break the rules and do new things. I speak from experience.

Very good point and post. :nod:

Richard B

03-07-2006, 01:37 PM

David

03-07-2006, 01:38 PM

Well I said a mix was good. If you purely stick to theory you are playing within musical boundaries.Yes but if you are completely bound by roles & historical precedent, you're just a boring composer/musician. That's not the fault of being trained to read notation -- that's your own fault.

If you play with no feeling, you can't blame the fact that you read notation. You have to just blame yourself, as I blame myself for not investing my playing with feeling or for not having developed my own style.

There are undoubtedly plenty of untrained musicians out there who play with even less feeling & individual style than I do!

jbrownsjr

03-07-2006, 02:12 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I love that word :o

me too! :)

strandinthewind

03-07-2006, 02:15 PM

me too! :)

I use it and the C word all of the time :laugh:

jbrownsjr

03-07-2006, 02:18 PM

madformac

03-07-2006, 02:19 PM

He's a Libra, darling! Poor guy can't help it. They love to hear themselves. He strikes me as the type of person who talks at you and not with you.

I'm a Libran too. It's all true, I won't deny it... :laugh:

madformac

03-07-2006, 02:22 PM

There are undoubtedly plenty of untrained musicians out there who play with even less feeling & individual style than I do!

You mean shredders? :blob2: :laugh:

ragandbone

03-07-2006, 02:38 PM

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Richard Thompson, and amazingly versatile, skilled guitarist on electric and acoustic: he can play blues, jazz, British folk, classical, he can rock - hard- and he has some of that angry intensity that Lindsey has. http://www.richardthompson-music.com/audiodownloads.asp

Which, brings me to my possibly unpopular belief about Lindsey.
Guitar World Acoustic March 1998
I would have much rather been in the Clash than Fleetwood Mac at that point.
I don't think he is a rebel avante-punk experimenter trapped in a dinosaur pop band. I think he was in the band he belonged in.

Uncut Magazine
April 2004

UNCUT: What kind of impact did punk and post-punk have on you and the way you felt Fleetwood Mac’s music should be going?
BUCKINGHAM: Although punk had a fairly huge impact on me, its influence on Tusk wasn’t so much on the music but more that it gave me a little room to deprogram and reaffirm things - to retrieve my own style, which I had when I joined the band in ’74 but which I had then given up to the situation of the group’s collective femaleness. I was inspired by the honesty, integrity and sensibility of bands like The Clash and Gang Of Four

The Clash would never have wanted him. Punk never really allowed room for self-exploration, self-expression, yes, but navel-gazers in a mosh pit will get you crushed under a hundered stomping workboots.
I think he confused Punk with EST.

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 02:45 PM

Eric Clapton
Rick Vito
Bob Welch
Mark Knopfler
Warren Haynes
Doyle Bramhall II
Keith Richards
Paul McCartney (yeah, he's known as a bass player, but he's an incredibly versatile guitarist, as well)
Larry Carlton
Lee Ritenour

I could go on...but it would be pointless...there's your examples.

Same old same old....

Not One of this list can hurt my soul like Lindsey does...or Kevn Kinney...or JJ Cale ( who has more feel in is pink than Clapton or Knopfler have in their entire body... although he loses it on every front skillwise or even tone from those two). But Hey, I can see it coming: Shackin'up, you don't know **** about guitarplaying-strong argument.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

madformac

03-07-2006, 02:47 PM

But Hey, I can see it coming: Shackin'up, you don't know **** about guitarplaying-strong argument.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You've spared me saying the words Gerald. ;) :lol:

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 02:50 PM

You've spared me saying the words Gerald. ;) :lol:

duh...madforstraits:D

by the way, i need your own fockin' leadguitarplayer in this discussion. HE has an opinion on guitarplaying that can be taken serious. And now say again: He doesn't know **** about guitarplaying either. :) :)

madformac

03-07-2006, 02:53 PM

duh...madforstraits:D

or "madforfloyd" :D :] or even "madforclap", err no that doesn't work does it? :laugh:

chiliD

03-07-2006, 02:55 PM

You've spared me saying the words Gerald. ;) :lol:

Ditto. :nod:

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 02:55 PM

or "madforfloyd" :D :] or even "madforclap", err no that doesn't work does it? :laugh:

madforton sounds good. Nice title for a solo-album dear.:laugh:

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 02:56 PM

Ditto. :nod:

FRICK off.:p

It's unexeptable for a musiclover to be pushed aside in a discussion about music because you cannot play yourself. I've listened to so much music in my life intensely that such an attitude can only be classified as big fat arrogance. Something Lindsey's accused of a lot. I say, when it comes to guitardiscussions, Lindsey's arrogance does not come near to yours.

chiliD

03-07-2006, 03:00 PM

FRICK off.:p

Again, I say..."ditto" :wavey:

madformac

03-07-2006, 03:01 PM

by the way, i need your own fockin' leadguitarplayer in this discussion. HE has an opinion on guitarplaying that can be taken serious. And now say again: He doesn't know **** about guitarplaying either. :) :)

He's a very enigmatic chap these days. You might get the odd post if he wanders over here, such is life for the busy dude.

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 03:06 PM

Again, I say..."ditto" :wavey:

please read my edited post above. You're hurting me Chili.

madformac

03-07-2006, 03:15 PM

FRICK off.:p

It's unexeptable for a musiclover to be pushed aside in a discussion about music because you cannot play yourself. I've listened to so much music in my life intensely that such an attitude can only be classified as big fat arrogance. Something Lindsey's accused of a lot. I say, when it comes to guitardiscussions, Lindsey's arrogance does not come near to yours.

You do have a valid point there G. It shouldn't be that the musicians of the board sit up on a "Ledge" and look down on the rest of the communities opinions with little consideration on this matter. Everybody gets emotions from music, some influences and some emotional triggers are just different from individual to individual. Mine happen to be based mostly in the British Blues era of Green, Clapton and John Mayall with a sprinkling of Knopfler and Gilmour thrown in.

I still must say though that your remark about Eric and Knopfler is total and utter bollocks. :blob2: :D

Madness Fades

03-07-2006, 03:18 PM

Jeepers Lads, You have let this topic go right out of control altogether. Great work. I log off at work come home get something to eat, play a few chords, log back on and theres 50 new posts to read....whos fault is this im raging.

Anyway ive a lot of catching up to do. MadforMac, Tom banks, chilliD, and shackin up really went for it there.

This is a musically minded topic--- do you play guitar shackin up ?????

David

03-07-2006, 03:35 PM

I don't think he is a rebel avante-punk experimenter trapped in a dinosaur pop band. I think he was in the band he belonged in.I have a reply to this, eliza. But I have to figure out how to say it.
It's an agreement in principle but also a clarification of principle.

madformac

03-07-2006, 03:49 PM

I actually have three very good reasons why Lindsey's work has been great, and even ChilD must agree with this one.... ;)

Chili's Model 1-C Junior, Madness Fade's Model 1-C Studio Special and my Model 1-C-P. :cool: :laugh:

If Lindsey hadn't brought this guitar to my attention I would have missed quite a versatile instrument. :thumbsup:

TomBanks147

03-07-2006, 04:02 PM

It's good and healthy when all the musicians talk about there influences/styles/playing etc. Even if you do disagree with quite a few people you probably learn more from them than you would with a bunch of guy agreeing on everything.

ragandbone

03-07-2006, 04:17 PM

I have a reply to this, eliza. But I have to figure out how to say it.
It's an agreement in principle but also a clarification of principle.

BTW, I think he would have been suited to continue with a backup band, as he had in Buckingham Nicks, too. When Lindsey talks about loving Django Reinhardt (oh wait, has he talked about that, or just named a song "Django"?) or the Kingston Trio, or Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys, I believe him, and of course I wouldn't deny that some of those musicans were innovative, though not radical.

Ok, I am interested to hear what you say, of course.

Has anyone noticed that these "Unpopular beliefs" contain popular"Unpopular Beliefs"?

madformac

03-07-2006, 04:20 PM

Brain Wilson

There was a time when the former part of that name went missing... I think it's returned somewhat to Mr Wilson now. :laugh: :nod:

Richard B

03-07-2006, 04:21 PM

Kingston Trio, or Brain Wilson and the Beach Boys, I believe him, and of course I wouldn't deny that some of those musicans were innovative, though not radical.

But certainly melodic with strong pop sensibilities.

ragandbone

03-07-2006, 04:28 PM

There was a time when the former part of that name went missing... I think it's returned somewhat to Mr Wilson now. :laugh: :nod:
:] You know, I keep apologizing for my horrendous typos, but secretly they often amuse me too ;^)

chiliD

03-07-2006, 04:35 PM

shackin'up

03-07-2006, 06:40 PM

So f***ing what? :shrug: Live with it!! Fleetwood Mac has had to live with Lindsey for all this time, this place just will have to live with mine. I apologize for nothing.

I don't ask for apologies, I'll never do that. I ask you to take me serious in a discussion about music for gods sake.... and lindsey was gone for 10 years remember?

BTFLCHLD

03-07-2006, 06:52 PM

lindsey is god

chiliD

03-07-2006, 06:54 PM

I don't ask for apologies, I'll never do that. I ask you to take me serious in a discussion about music for gods sake.... and lindsey was gone for 10 years remember?

I take you serious when we're talking music :nod: ...its the finer points of guitar playing that I run rings around you logically. :laugh:

Just because Lindsey wasn't IN the band, Fleetwood Mac still had to deal with him...his constant criticism of them in the media. I mean, jeez, Mick kept inviting him to their shows, their recording sessions (he appears on both BTM & Time, remember), etc. It's not like he was "out of sight, out of mind".

madformac

03-07-2006, 07:22 PM

lindsey is god

Hang on, that can't be right...

Clapton is God. It said so at Islington tube station in London some years ago..... ;) :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y100/madformac/god.gif

jbrownsjr

03-07-2006, 08:31 PM

Like he's one to talk.

And, again, they didn't NEED two guitarists to replace him...they just happened to GET two guitarists; mainly, to fill out the sound that was so painfully thin during Lindsey's...{ahem}...reign. I mean, look, he had to get his own roadie to play 2nd guitar it was so thin.

Let's see, Lindsey publicly disparages the then current lineup of Fleetwood Mac, but it was Fleetwood Mac themselves actually being a working, thriving band that was "dragging the name to the ground"??? ...what a pompous asshole.

Chime in, Justin...please

not to mention his his swipes at stevie, christine, mick and john's musicianship

jbrownsjr

03-07-2006, 08:49 PM

Yes but if you are completely bound by roles & historical precedent, you're just a boring composer/musician. That's not the fault of being trained to read notation -- that's your own fault.

If you play with no feeling, you can't blame the fact that you read notation. You have to just blame yourself, as I blame myself for not investing my playing with feeling or for not having developed my own style.

There are undoubtedly plenty of untrained musicians out there who play with even less feeling & individual style than I do!

To me... it's like being born knowing how to speak english but never really knowing how the letters and words are formed.

Learning theory just lets you know what you're doing, what you're hearing, how loud or soft you are hearing it etc etc...

This should only assist you in mastering your craft.... I can't understand how it would limit you....

Red

03-07-2006, 10:25 PM

Wow, will ya look at all this activity in the Lindsey forum - I'M PROUD!

So after reading all these posts, maybe THIS is an unpopular opinion: Despite his wee little faults, I think Lindsey is one of the most talented, challenging and interesting musicians of our time - or any for that matter. And damn sexy too boot. What more can you ask for? Oh wait, riiiiiight, another solo album.:thumbsup:

David

03-07-2006, 11:59 PM

So after reading all these posts, maybe THIS is an unpopular opinion: Despite his wee little faults, I think Lindsey is one of the most talented, challenging and interesting musicians of our time - or any for that matter. And damn sexy too boot. What more can you ask for? Oh wait, riiiiiight, another solo album.:thumbsup:I think he was a clever, accomplished, individual voice in the AOR/MOR wilderness who was both inclined & able to infuse his personality & its idiosyncracies into the band's studio work & live performances for about ten years. He fashioned a personal style out of sometimes meager raw materials. (Essentially, he was the Val Lewton of 1970s pop.) He also had a very good engineer's ear & a notable sense of instrumental & vocal ideation.

But the days go by like a strand in the wind. . . . :( :eek: :o :confused: :shocked: :mad: And now he is no more.

Red

03-08-2006, 12:04 AM

[QUOTE=David But the days go by like a strand in the wind. . . . :( :eek: :o :confused: :shocked: :mad: And now he is no more.[/QUOTE]

Eeeee....are you sure about that? No optimism?

jbrownsjr

03-08-2006, 01:10 AM

I think he was a clever, accomplished, individual voice in the AOR/MOR wilderness who was both inclined & able to infuse his personality & its idiosyncracies into the band's studio work & live performances for about ten years. He fashioned a personal style out of sometimes meager raw materials. (Essentially, he was the Val Lewton of 1970s pop.) He also had a very good engineer's ear & a notable sense of instrumental & vocal ideation.

But the days go by like a strand in the wind. . . . :( :eek: :o :confused: :shocked: :mad: And now he is no more.

he also knew how to set up, operate and break down the equipment

amber

03-08-2006, 02:02 AM

he also knew how to set up, operate and break down the equipment
:eek: :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

You suck!

:laugh:

Mari

03-08-2006, 04:07 AM

Hang on, that can't be right...

Clapton is God. It said so at Islington tube station in London some years ago..... ;) :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y100/madformac/god.gif

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: because of what that dog is doing...

"clapton? I piss on clapton!"

face of glass

03-08-2006, 05:14 AM

No doubt about it. Gerald is that dog, just like he is the dog on the cover of Tusk. :nod:

madformac

03-08-2006, 07:38 AM

No doubt about it. Gerald is that dog, just like he is the dog on the cover of Tusk. :nod:

Yes I believe Gerald has pissed all over my influences on this thread! :laugh:

Oh well, the day will come when I will get my revenge on the chilled out dutchman... oh yes.. :] :nod: :lol:

TomBanks147

03-08-2006, 11:09 AM

To me... it's like being born knowing how to speak english but never really knowing how the letters and words are formed.

Learning theory just lets you know what you're doing, what you're hearing, how loud or soft you are hearing it etc etc...

This should only assist you in mastering your craft.... I can't understand how it would limit you....

most famous novel writers became good at writing books through reading others work and learning from them not because they studied the (english) language.

I'm not saying theory is bad. I'd lvoe to be able to play pianno and to do this im going to have to learn how to read music. I just think sometimes It can get in the way of you expressing your emotions because it brakes a "rule". I also believe that sometimes without knowledge of anythign musical you are restricted in how you want to express yourself because you do not have to knowledge to know how.

shackin'up

03-08-2006, 11:55 AM

Yes I believe Gerald has pissed all over my influences on this thread! :laugh:

I was just sniffin'. The pissing has yet to come.:lol: :lol:

Oh well, the day will come when I will get my revenge on the chilled out dutchman... oh yes.. :] :nod: :lol:

Okay....How do you think you can do that? I've got ONE advantage: You cannot piss on my influences, cause I don't HAVE influences; I can't play a note!!!:lol: :lol:

shackin'up

03-08-2006, 11:56 AM

No doubt about it. Gerald is that dog, just like he is the dog on the cover of Tusk. :nod:

Oh my God. I wanna marry you. You're the first male I feel attracted to. Nobody EVER made me a greater compliment. Where do I have to put the wet nose? :lol:

shackin'up

03-08-2006, 11:59 AM

I'll put in right in your face of glass.

madformac

03-08-2006, 12:21 PM

Okay....How do you think you can do that?

Oh I don't know. But a time will come on a thread when I shall have my moment of glory. :nod: :D

Shackin'up will be packin'up. :blob1: :blob2: :blob1:

David

03-08-2006, 01:10 PM

I'd lvoe to be able to play pianno and to do this im going to have to learn how to read music.Not at all. You can be a great pianist & not be able to read a note of music. George Shearing, Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles & countless other pianists don't read staff notation.

If you want to learn how to play the piano, I recommend you learn how to read notes on a staff. But you don't necessarily need to know how to do this.

shackin'up

03-08-2006, 01:17 PM

Oh I don't know. But a time will come on a thread when I shall have my moment of glory. :nod: :D

Shackin'up will be packin'up. :blob1: :blob2: :blob1:

how can you when i won't take it from you?:lol:

chiliD

03-08-2006, 01:33 PM

Not at all. You can be a great pianist & not be able to read a note of music. George Shearing, Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles & countless other pianists don't read staff notation.

You forgot Ronnie Milsap & Johnny Neal, too.

Sure, they can't "read a note of music", but then they can't read ANYTHING, David.

Nice try. :lol:

David

03-08-2006, 01:45 PM

You forgot Ronnie Milsap & Johnny Neal, too.I enjoyed Milsap's recording of the Bach Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue.
Sure, they can't "read a note of music", but then they can't read ANYTHING, David.

Nice try. :lol:On the other hand, Friedrich Gulda, Alfred Brendel, Emil Gilels, Artur Rubinstein, Leon Fleisher, Sviatoslov Richter, Artur Schnabel, Rosalyn Tureck, Arturo Michelangeli & Maurizio Pollini were all able to read staff notation thoroughly.

chiliD

03-08-2006, 01:49 PM

wenn mir einer etwas zu sagen
hat, so muß er es deutlich und
einfach sagen. problematisches
habe ich in mir selber genug.

--goethe
.

Ummm...let's see how much high school German I remember...

"If somebody says something to me, say it clearly and smoothly so I won't have trouble understanding"

Close?

David

03-08-2006, 02:02 PM

Ummm...let's see how much high school German I remember...

"If somebody says something to me, say it clearly and smoothly so I won't have trouble understanding"

Close?You get the picture! Isn't it marvelous? :blob2: :blob2: :blob1: :blob1:

madformac

03-08-2006, 03:05 PM

The Ledge was calling Lindsey to play.
His playing was just a way of saying what we had all come to say.
(he's flawed in soooo many ways)
This thread was a poem slowly written
and torn from our keyboards.
Cast into a corner of the Ledge
where no one would look (the Peter Green forum?)
This rage of ChiliD for all to see
caught fire until there was nothing left of Geralds posts to burn.
Now I read alone with no more moans
and reread this thread all tainted with rage.
Tears heal such as healing is
so I cast this post into the flame
And there is no blame
only shades of regret
And those too will fade
As Clapton calls me away

chiliD

03-08-2006, 04:40 PM

There once was a Ledgie from Nantucket
Whose head was inside a bucket
From far away he heard
"Buckingham's a nerd"
So screamed with all his might, "Aww..F*** IT!!"

cliffdweller

03-08-2006, 05:51 PM

Your "correction" is misguided. He's got a unique style, that's for sure; but "unique style" doesn't not equate to "best guitarist".

It's really all a matter of opinion. And just because someone doesn't play blues guitar doesn't diminish their guitar playing ability. That's a particular genre not everyone is interested in playing, so big whoop. Imo, blues guitar isn't the most diffcult style of playing either...I've heard metal guitarists play MUCH more complex and intricate stuff, so :shrug:

In short, I love Lindsey's playing. My unpopular opinion is that he needs to drop the "angry man" attitude. What does homeboy have to be so angry about? I think he's a pampered, privileged, rich guy who needs to get a life and quit romanticizing musical slumming. He'd never be happy on an indie label making little money with little exposure. He romanticizes the tortured artist's life when in fact he's a spoiled brat of an artists who lives in a mansion and drives a Mercedes :rolleyes: Can't have it both ways Linds.

Other than that, I love him :laugh:.

shackin'up

03-08-2006, 05:56 PM

There once was a Ledgie from Nantucket
Whose head was inside a bucket
From far away he heard
"Buckingham's a nerd"
So screamed with all his might, "Aww..F*** IT!!"

Goethe eat your heart out.

A ledgie from the West
Who likes to wet his nest
Is never really into rhyme
The dombo even defends Time
And when he shows his own nice tools
every lindsey-addept drools
But when it comes to pay Him honest earned dues
Even the biggest Buckhead gets the blues.

chiliD

03-08-2006, 06:27 PM

It's really all a matter of opinion.

Yeah, if you're discussing "favorites", then yeah, can't disagree with somebody's favorite...BUT when you slap the "best" label on it, then there's a specific criteria that is thrown in the mix.

So, sure, if Lindsey Buckingham is your favorite...more power to ya. If you think he's "the best", you're sadly mistaken.

GypsySorcerer

03-08-2006, 07:05 PM

In short, I love Lindsey's playing. My unpopular opinion is that he needs to drop the "angry man" attitude. What does homeboy have to be so angry about? I think he's a pampered, privileged, rich guy who needs to get a life and quit romanticizing musical slumming. He'd never be happy on an indie label making little money with little exposure. He romanticizes the tortured artist's life when in fact he's a spoiled brat of an artists who lives in a mansion and drives a Mercedes :rolleyes: Can't have it both ways Linds.

Other than that, I love him :laugh:.
As Mick said, "But he's never lived in a two-bedroom apartment!" :lol:

But I love me some LB.

cliffdweller

03-09-2006, 11:32 AM

BUT when you slap the "best" label on it, then there's a specific criteria that is thrown in the mix.

Again, I disagree. It's all a matter of opinion. I'm just wondering...what are the criteria you're talking about? Because I'm thinking that whatever criteria you place on "the best" just really adds up to opinion and preference. Say for instance you say, "well, the best guitarist plays songs that include intricate melodies based on the pentatonic scale" (like Yngwie Malmsteen or Randy Rhodes for example) whereas another person might say, "no, the best guitarsts are masters at the complex blues scales" (like Stevie Ray Vaughn, Eric Clapton or even Jimi Hendrix) whereas another person might say, "nope, the best guitarsts are the ones who can play intricate solos and tapping, and all other kinds of noodling and wankering better than anyone else." There is no specific formula that produces the best, there's just skill and proficiency...and even that is hard to measure given all the many genres and styles of guitar playing out there. You can't match skill for skill...it's all relative.

jbrownsjr

03-09-2006, 12:16 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :eek: :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

You suck!

:laugh:

ur damn right i do! :laugh:

jbrownsjr

03-09-2006, 12:20 PM

most famous novel writers became good at writing books through reading others work and learning from them not because they studied the (english) language.

I'm not saying theory is bad. I'd lvoe to be able to play pianno and to do this im going to have to learn how to read music. I just think sometimes It can get in the way of you expressing your emotions because it brakes a "rule". I also believe that sometimes without knowledge of anythign musical you are restricted in how you want to express yourself because you do not have to knowledge to know how.

but they knew the construction of the language, otherwise those novelist would not be able to read those books.

Boots

03-09-2006, 12:49 PM

I listen to the beatles regulary and I trully respect McCartney (not as a person, I got caught up in the whole McCartney jumps on Lennons grave thing) but as a musician I think he's great. Simply though he is NOT a good guitarist and LB is a LOT better. Off course If you could list a few songs for me to go away and listen to I will off course give him the benfit of the doubt.

I'm just reading all this stuff, and was quite interested in this particular discussion. I'm not a McCartney fan, but I believe he's a pretty damn good guitarist. I was flabbergasted to find out recently (I must have been the only one who did not know this) that it was McCartney who did the lead guitar in Taxman...at the end of the song as it fades out. Couldn't believe that all these years I thought it was Harrison. It was very disappointing for me, being a George fan, but kudos to Macca for pulling that one out.

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 01:40 PM

Again, I disagree. There is no specific formula that produces the best, there's just skill and proficiency...and even that is hard to measure given all the many genres and styles of guitar playing out there. You can't match skill for skill...it's all relative.

Couldn't agree more. When I say that in my opinion Angus Young is one of the best guitarplayers in the world (I mean it and I know very good guitarplayers that agree with me.) then that cannot be qualified as Mistaken. That's the part that really makes my neck sweat: Not I disagree with you, but You're wrong and don't know **** about it.

On a discussion board I think that's The death in the pot (dutch expression litterally translated. nice huh?)

chiliD

03-09-2006, 02:12 PM

Again, I disagree. It's all a matter of opinion. I'm just wondering...what are the criteria you're talking about? Because I'm thinking that whatever criteria you place on "the best" just really adds up to opinion and preference. Say for instance you say, "well, the best guitarist plays songs that include intricate melodies based on the pentatonic scale" (like Yngwie Malmsteen or Randy Rhodes for example) whereas another person might say, "no, the best guitarsts are masters at the complex blues scales" (like Stevie Ray Vaughn, Eric Clapton or even Jimi Hendrix) whereas another person might say, "nope, the best guitarsts are the ones who can play intricate solos and tapping, and all other kinds of noodling and wankering better than anyone else." There is no specific formula that produces the best, there's just skill and proficiency...and even that is hard to measure given all the many genres and styles of guitar playing out there. You can't match skill for skill...it's all relative.

Simple solution...refrain from using the "best" label. Simple as that.

mylittledemon

03-09-2006, 05:11 PM

Simple solution...refrain from using the "best" label. Simple as that.

I would agree, for once with the Chilimaster. Fellow musicians always ask me who the best guitarist is and I always answer "well my favorite player is Lindsey Buckingham..." I know that Lindsey isn't the best. And truthfully (as much as I hate to admit), if you think he is, you've just not been exposed to very many guitar players.

David

03-09-2006, 05:20 PM

I would agree, for once with the Chilimaster. Fellow musicians always ask me who the best guitarist is and I always answer "well my favorite player is Lindsey Buckingham..." I know that Lindsey isn't the best. And truthfully (as much as I hate to admit), if you think he is, you've just not been exposed to very many guitar players.This is one of the great fallacies of the era: "I love it beyond my powers to describe, so therefore it must be a great & sublime work."

It's a sort of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, & it's widespread in this particular fan community in which I hang.

Just because you love something doesn't necessarily mean it's the best there is ... or even any good at all. You need context & a frame of reference before you make such deathless pronouncements.

Except in my own case -- I make such deathless pronouncements all the time ("Nightmare" is the greatest song Stevie ever wrote, etc.)

David

03-09-2006, 05:21 PM

Angus Young ... Angus young? What is that? A cut of steak?

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 05:29 PM

I know that Lindsey isn't the best. And truthfully (as much as I hate to admit), if you think he is, you've just not been exposed to very many guitar players.

And the utter crap continues. The best is as personal and subjective as The most favourite. Stop trying to know better. You guitarplayers think that you "own" guitarplaying. Bull. Without listeners who get TOUCHED by what you all do you don't have ANYTHING!. So pay respect to the listener who don't know **** about guitarplaying who says; The best guitarist in the world is the one makes me cry/shiver/feelhappy/hurt. Stop lecturing. I've been exposed to more guitarists than you, mylittledemon, because I'm a musicabsorber since I was 7. That's 33 years of intensive and aware experience in perception and it is time for you selfindulged musicians to bow deeply for the people without whom your existence is equal to ziltch: your public. They're worth it. Fockin' h*ll.

mylittledemon

03-09-2006, 05:29 PM

... Angus young? What is that? A cut of steak?

guitar player for AC/DC...also, not one of the best guitarists. A great showman for sure, and a superb tone, but technically not spectacular and easily duplicated.

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 05:32 PM

... Angus young? What is that? A cut of steak?

:lol: that's how he treats his strings. You know AC/DC. Admit it Sir Wellinformed Eloquence:thumbsup:

mylittledemon

03-09-2006, 05:36 PM

And the utter crap continues. The best is as personal and subjective as The most favourite. Stop trying to know better. You guitarplayers think that you "own" guitarplaying. Bull. Without listeners who get TOUCHED by what you all do you don't have ANYTHING!. So pay respect to the listener who don't know **** about guitarplaying who says; The best guitarist in the world is the one makes me cry/shiver/feelhappy/hurt. Stop lecturing. I've been exposed to more guitarists than you, mylittledemon, because I'm a musicabsorber since I was 7. That's 33 years of intensive and aware experience in perception and it is time for you selfindulged musicians to bow deeply for the people without whom your existence is equal to ziltch: your public. They're worth it. Fockin' h*ll.

I would agree with you in the sense that your FAVORITE is the also the "best" usually in most cases. I just always correct myself and say that Lindsey is my favorite so I don't come across all one sided with my love of Buckingham's style. There are so many other guitarists that move me, emotionally, like Lindsey does. Probably more so out there. The Edge from U2 (for me) for sure. I suppose I should have said MY OPINION was that Lindsey is not the best, but he's my favorite. I guess I didn't make that clear.

I never challenged your knowledge of music over mine. Just because you've been a music absorber for 30 years doesn't make you any more of an expert on music than I am at the tender age of 27. That's like saying you know more about which peanut butter brands are superior to others. It's subjective, and just because you've been around longer doesn't mean that knowledge accompanies it. I say all this as humbly as possible, knowing full well I'm not the greatest, or anyone's favorite guitar player for that matter.

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 06:27 PM

I never challenged your knowledge of music over mine. Just because you've been a music absorber for 30 years doesn't make you any more of an expert on music than I am at the tender age of 27.

Yes you did challenge my knowledge over yours. And I am not only talking to you. ChiliD does the same thing.

For me, lindsey is the best. You said that anyone who state that has not been exposed to enough guitarplayers. I think that's bull. Of course is my age not the norm. I stated that to make clear how ridiculous it is that The best would be something else, maybe on objective criteria or some other nonexisting norms:shrug: , than your most favourite. .

By the way, anyone who states that lindsey is his favourite at the tender age of 27 is a clairvoyant in my book:laugh: .

eh.... I hate peanutbutter. I did not absorb that for 33 years. But if I did, I'd call myself an expert don't you agree?

Chester

03-09-2006, 06:31 PM

If we are going so far as saying that "best" is absolutely, 100% subjective, then there isn't much point in using the term. Whats the point in saying someone is "the best guitarist in the world" just because you personally like their style? if there's somebody who just started playing and is by regular standards, a terribleguitar player, but somebody with extremely little guitr background comes along and thinks theyre "the best", does it really mean anything? Does it ever mean anything to say it? The term implies that there is criteria and this person goes above and beyond. Just refrain from using it, like chiliD said. You favorite guitarist is one thing, but saying "The best guitarist in the world is the one makes me cry/shiver/feelhappy/hurt" like shackin'up said, is the same as saying "favorite". "Best" is an objective term, "favorite" is subjective. Am I wrong?

DavidMn

03-09-2006, 06:32 PM

chiliD

03-09-2006, 06:33 PM

ChiliD does the same thing

Yeah...but I know what I'm talking about. :laugh:

Oh, and "tender age of 27" is not all that "tender" :D ..that's the "make or break" age for quite a few of our rock heroes. Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, Cobain didn't make it past 27...and they were considered "in their prime"...not some "tender age". :nod:

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 06:36 PM

"Best" is an objective term, "favorite" is subjective. Am I wrong?

yes. No offense, Chester. They are both subjective. What's an objective criterium for the best guitarplayer in the world? Everybody has to agree with one name if that was the case. And clearly that has NEVER been accomplished. There IS no best player in the world based on objective criteria.

objective criteria. contradiction in terms.

Chester

03-09-2006, 06:39 PM

y What's an objective criterium for the best guitarplayer in the world?
I wasn't talking about the best guitar player in the world. Simply the term best. I'm saying there can't be a "best" guitar player in the world becuase the word is objective. Only a favorite.

chiliD

03-09-2006, 06:40 PM

yes. No offense, Chester. They are both subjective. What's an objective criterium for the best guitarplayer in the world? Everybody has to agree with one name if that was the case. And clearly that has NEVER been accomplished. There IS no best player in the world based on objective criteria.

objective criteria. contradiction in terms.

No. When you say "best", that implies there IS a concrete set of criteria involved. It is one of the most misused terms in the English language. 90% of the people use the term "Best" when they actually mean "Favorite".

There ISN'T a "best guitarist"...doesn't exist, because there IS no concrete set of criteria to determine who is actually the "BEST".

Chester...you beat me by a minute.

BTFLCHLD

03-09-2006, 06:41 PM

mylildemon is THE BESTEST! :]

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 06:50 PM

No. When you say "best", that implies there IS a concrete set of criteria involved. It is one of the most misused terms in the English language. 90% of the people use the term "Best" when they actually mean "Favorite".

There ISN'T a "best guitarist"...doesn't exist, because there IS no concrete set of criteria to determine who is actually the "BEST".

Chester...you beat me by a minute.

But you always state that there are "better" guitarists than Lindsey buckingham. That's using the same set of nonexisting criteria. In that case there is also no sense in using the word "good". I think Lindsey is the best. You may have another opinion, but don't put yourself on a higher level by saying I don't know anything about it. Because that is simply not true.

Chester

03-09-2006, 06:54 PM

In that case there is also no sense in using the word "good".
There is just as much sense saying "good" as there is saying "favorite". Theres plenty sense. Good doesn't imply in any way that you are declaring someone the absolute greatest ever to live. It's just a smaller version of favorite. Perfectly healthy and benign. :)

chiliD

03-09-2006, 07:13 PM

But you always state that there are "better" guitarists than Lindsey buckingham. That's using the same set of nonexisting criteria. In that case there is also no sense in using the word "good". I think Lindsey is the best. You may have another opinion, but don't put yourself on a higher level by saying I don't know anything about it. Because that is simply not true.

Well, I state that because I'M one of 'em. That's why I DO put myself on a higher level.

You're not going to let this go, are you? I'm laying down my sword. I give up. You win. You may now gloat.

DavidMn

03-09-2006, 07:15 PM

shackin'up

03-09-2006, 07:34 PM

Well, I state that because I'M one of 'em. That's why I DO put myself on a higher level.

You're not going to let this go, are you? I'm laying down my sword. I give up. You win. You may now gloat.

Cheap cheaper cheapest.

respond towards my arguments for once. You only quote the uninportant parts of my posts and therefore you don't discuss. I don't want to win. I want my opinion to be equally levelled in importance (or lack of it) as yours.

mylittledemon

03-09-2006, 08:15 PM

Yes you did challenge my knowledge over yours. And I am not only talking to you. ChiliD does the same thing.

For me, lindsey is the best. You said that anyone who states that has not been exposed to enough guitarplayers. I think that's bull. Of course is my age not the norm. I stated that to make clear how ridiculous it is that The best would be something else, maybe on objective criteria or some other nonexisting norms:shrug: , than your most favourite. .

By the way, anyone who states that lindsey is his favourite at the tender age of 27 is a clairvoyant in my book:laugh: .

eh.... I hate peanutbutter. I did not absorb that for 33 years. But if I did, I'd call myself an expert don't you agree?

Again, no I didnt challenge you. I think you're trying to turn it into one, so think what you want to. I'm refuse to get my feathers ruffled over it. Go fight with Chili if you want. However I am going to defend myself:

I didn't say anyone who "states" that Lindsey is the best has not been exposed to enough guitar players. I said anyone who thinks Lindsey is the best simply hasn't been exposed to enough guitar players. It's my opinion, not a challenge or a fact. Lindsey happens to be my favorite. If that means you think I'm saying he's the best, I know better. I'm a little more open minded about it. I know there are "better" guitarists out there in terms of what they can play.

And yeah, Lindsey is my favorite guitar player. At 26 years of age, actually...I'll be 27 this year.

And no, your age does not make you an expert. Nor does your claim that you've "absorbed music" for 33 years. So what? You implied earlier that "we" guitarists were self indulgent and lecturing. Well what do you think you're saying by calling yourself an expert? That's 10 times more self serving and indulgent as anything you even thought I was trying to imply.

Case in point...You can never be an expert in music. There's always something to learn. Whether it be a new instrument, a new style of playing, etc. Even if you play just ONE instrument...there is always something to learn. So call yourself an expert if you want, but that, you most certainly are not. And humbly, neither am I.

chiliD

03-10-2006, 01:47 AM

respond towards my arguments for once. You only quote the uninportant parts of my posts and therefore you don't discuss. I don't want to win. I want my opinion to be equally levelled in importance (or lack of it) as yours.

No. I respond to the parts of your posts *I* find "inportant". You'll never get to my level (and believe me, you wouldn't want to be there), so stop trying.

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 06:42 AM

No. I respond to the parts of your posts *I* find "inportant". You'll never get to my level (and believe me, you wouldn't want to be there), so stop trying.

Oh yeah. You win. I'm dumb, you're intelligent. That's how Americans stand in life and that's how they conquer the world. I should have known. Respect, dude, respect. You are so mature.

PS: Inportant, what the heck. The M and a N are so close together that it is really classy of you to point that out.

I even made a nice poem that you didn't respond to. I normally think you have a sense of humour, but it seems to be burried by your arrogance.

I bow deeply master. When can I buy your worldclass album?

face of glass

03-10-2006, 06:54 AM

Oh, and "tender age of 27" is not all that "tender" :D ..that's the "make or break" age for quite a few of our rock heroes. Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, Cobain didn't make it past 27...and they were considered "in their prime"...not some "tender age". :nod:
Robert Johnson too!

John Run

03-10-2006, 08:44 AM

Lets the define this question two ways:

Lindsey's Best Guitar Performance:

Your Favorite Lindsey Guitar Performance:

Perhaps this should be another thread..??

chiliD

03-10-2006, 09:41 AM

Oh yeah. You win. I'm dumb, you're intelligent. That's how Americans stand in life and that's how they conquer the world. I should have known. Respect, dude, respect. You are so mature.

PS: Inportant, what the heck. The M and a N are so close together that it is really classy of you to point that out.

I even made a nice poem that you didn't respond to. I normally think you have a sense of humour, but it seems to be burried by your arrogance.

I bow deeply master. When can I buy your worldclass album?

Ok, I guess I've pushed a little too far :sorry: ...all the arrogance is a total put on...c'mon, how can you really believe that ANYONE could be as arrogant as I have been on this thread? I've just been being totally absurd. :laugh: I don't have that bloated opinion of myself in the least...in fact, the opposite. I'm utter crap. Over the years of posting here, I've just noticed what "pushes your buttons" and gets you all riled up; so I took advantage of that. I only been picking on you because I like you. You're cool. :thumbsup:

madformac

03-10-2006, 10:59 AM

Ok, I guess I've pushed a little too far :sorry: ...all the arrogance is a total put on...c'mon, how can you really believe that ANYONE could be as arrogant as I have been on this thread? I've just been being totally absurd. :laugh: I don't have that bloated opinion of myself in the least...in fact, the opposite. I'm utter crap. Over the years of posting here, I've just noticed what "pushes your buttons" and gets you all riled up; so I took advantage of that. I only been picking on you because I like you. You're cool. :thumbsup:

I know it's a put on too Mr D. But it sure got some good posts in here didn't it?

OK, who is the best guitarist on The Ledge? :blob1: :lol: I know for sure it ain't me! :laugh: :wavey:

chiliD

03-10-2006, 11:04 AM

IOK, who is the best guitarist on The Ledge? :blob1: :lol: I know for sure it ain't me! :laugh: :wavey:

Ain't me, neither. Or. maybe....:]

Madness Fades

03-10-2006, 11:35 AM

Come on Lads you all know that would be me of course.............NOT !!!!

TomBanks147

03-10-2006, 12:17 PM

The Edge

I have quite a few friends that SWEAR by U2 making claims like "Edge is the best guitarist to come out of Ireland" (When it is clearly Rory Gallagher) I just don't get it thats all, He seems to me to be nothing other than part of the rythm section. Yes, he has a distinctive sound but he doesn't ever seem to be doing anything technically difficult (He certainly couldn't play some of Lindsey's songs)

I have quite a few of there albums and the rattle and hum DVD and I think The Edge has a really good voice, REALLY good voice. Far better than Bono thats for sure (He must be the biggest idiot of a frontman EVER) "Van Diemen's land" is a great song with chilling lyrics that I do love but again its not a difficult song to play. (he should ditch that band and go solo)

Zooropa is an album I can't stand and it's obvious U2 took that direction delibretly because they where struggling which in my eyes makes it totally fake. This album though is where Edge is most evident then again his sound on there is all based on effects he gets from his pedals.

All in all, I HATE U2, I HATE Bono and I just don't get the whole "Edge is amazing" thing. People may like what he sounds like but nothing he does is too difficult. Bob Dylan, Beatles etc all wrote great songs on major minor simple chords which most people will agree are amazing but you can't say things like "Bob is the best guitarist ever" because it simply isn't true. Thats the case with the Edge I think. Speaking of the Beatles and Dylan, U2 should stop robbing of them and "how to dismantle and atomic bomb" OUCHHHHH Bono should try singing in tune.

David

03-10-2006, 12:50 PM

I don't have that bloated opinion of myself in the least...in fact, the opposite.When you meet Steve in person, he's totally cool!! Gerald, you're probably, too, in person. You should come visit California/U.S. & Steve would show you around! Go hang out at Guitar Center (a big music/band store) or jam a little or go to the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad to see the rare guitars, keyboards & organs on display or take in a concert at the Orange County Performing Arts (Martha Argerich will be there on March 19)!!!

Come on over & visit, Gerald!

David

03-10-2006, 12:55 PM

I have quite a few friends that SWEAR by U2 making claims like "Edge is the best guitarist to come out of Ireland" (When it is clearly Rory Gallagher) I just don't get it thats all, He seems to me to be nothing other than part of the rythm section. Yes, he has a distinctive sound but he doesn't ever seem to be doing anything technically difficult (He certainly couldn't play some of Lindsey's songs)There's this temptation among musicians & nonmusicians alike to equate "best" with technical proficiency.

But classical musicians & classical music lovers generally don't believe that per se. That's why they don't talk about Paganini or even Liszt as being the best of all time. The best musician isn't necessarily the one who plays the fastest arpeggio; it's the one who finds the most expressive use of a tempo for his arpeggio, the one whose vision, conception & execution are all of a splendidly coherent piece, the one whose interpretation opens a window into the soul of the god of music.

David

03-10-2006, 12:56 PM

Ain't me, neither. Or. maybe....:]
Sure ain't me!! I don't wrangle with my plectra!

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 01:08 PM

The best musician isn't necessarily the one who plays the fastest arpeggio; it's the one who finds the most expressive use of a tempo for his arpeggio, the one whose vision, conception & execution are all of a splendidly coherent piece, the one whose interpretation opens a window into the soul of the god of music.

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: lindsey:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

madformac

03-10-2006, 01:21 PM

There's this temptation among musicians & nonmusicians alike to equate "best" with technical proficiency.

I used to think technical proficiency was the be all and end all of judgement when I was younger. Now I think its more a case of knowing when to play, when to leave space and how a series of chords or even a single note is played. I'm now of a school where by I believe playing the right choice of notes in the right way e.g. the amount of vibrato, how long to hold a string bend, using the correct guitar tones and also the correct effects and settings for a particular song are way more important than technical proficiency and to a degree speed too. Of course it's usually the case that players that that used to be very fast and technical players reach a point where they maybe listen more and inform the song rather than dictate it. Knopfler is one such player. Peter is another.

It's a bit like talking, some people speak few words yet are full of substance and others go on and on and on without really making a point. :)

p.s. Chili, check your pms. ;)

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 01:26 PM

Ok, I guess I've pushed a little too far :sorry: ...all the arrogance is a total put on...c'mon, how can you really believe that ANYONE could be as arrogant as I have been on this thread? I've just been being totally absurd. :laugh: I don't have that bloated opinion of myself in the least...in fact, the opposite. I'm utter crap. Over the years of posting here, I've just noticed what "pushes your buttons" and gets you all riled up; so I took advantage of that. I only been picking on you because I like you. You're cool. :thumbsup:

Don't apologise. You got me on the edge that's OK. I know you don't have that bloated opinion of yourself and yes, you passed a little edge. But walking on the edge makes it interesting and when you fall off it's pushed a little too far. But hey I whined as a fullblown Buckingham didn't I?

You're cool too:thumbsup: .

chiliD

03-10-2006, 01:27 PM

If nothing else :shrug: we gave the lurking readers of this thread some drama, didn't we? :lol:

Congrats on the "authentic" whine!:thumbsup:

{takes curtain call bow}

Now, let's meet our cast:

As "The Pompous Ass": chiliD
As "The whiny reactionary": shackin' up
As "The Peacekeeper": madformac

And, thanks to our "cast of thousands" who egged us on!

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 01:33 PM

When you meet Steve in person, he's totally cool!! Gerald, you're probably, too, in person. You should come visit California/U.S. & Steve would show you around! Go hang out at Guitar Center (a big music/band store) or jam a little or go to the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad to see the rare guitars, keyboards & organs on display or take in a concert at the Orange County Performing Arts (Martha Argerich will be there on March 19)!!!

Come on over & visit, Gerald!

Sounds fun David.
I'd love to drink a beer with the big bear that makes a model 1 look like a ukelele.
But I just bought a huge new house so the next couple of years I'm swingin' on the gallowspole called mortgage:lol: at least until my salary matches with the costs of it. I was in texas and oklahoma and london in 2003, where i've met great ledgies....but there are still some on my wishlist....Maybe after Lindsey's second solo-album from now.....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

David

03-10-2006, 01:35 PM

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: lindsey:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:
I was thinking of Maurice Ravel in relation to his compromised ability to play his own "Gaspard de la Nuit," which he wrote deliberately to outdo the pyrotechnics required to play Balakirev's "Islamey."

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 01:36 PM

I was thinking of Maurice Ravel in relation to his compromised ability to play his own "Gaspard de la Nuit," which he wrote deliberately to outdo the pyrotechnics required to play Balakirev's "Islamey."

yeah he too

:]

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 01:43 PM

madformac

03-10-2006, 01:56 PM

As "The Peacekeeper": madformac

It's always the same story with me isn't it? Must be the old Libra thing of scales and balance... Or I could be talking total ****e of course... :laugh:

shackin'up

03-10-2006, 02:31 PM

It's always the same story with me isn't it? Must be the old Libra thing of scales and balance... Or I could be talking total ****e of course... :laugh:

My birthday is sept. 23. So you're talking ****e.:laugh:

mylittledemon

03-10-2006, 04:05 PM

I have quite a few friends that SWEAR by U2 making claims like "Edge is the best guitarist to come out of Ireland" (When it is clearly Rory Gallagher)

Zooropa is an album I can't stand and it's obvious U2 took that direction delibretly because they where struggling which in my eyes makes it totally fake

All in all, I HATE U2, I HATE Bono and I just don't get the whole "Edge is amazing" thing. People may like what he sounds like but nothing he does is too difficult. Thats the case with the Edge I think. Speaking of the Beatles and Dylan, U2 should stop robbing of them and "how to dismantle and atomic bomb" OUCHHHHH Bono should try singing in tune.

I didnt say the Edge was better than Rory, or the best guitarist out of Ireland for that matter. Maybe the most prominent because his sound is fairly unique. But The Edge's playing does move me. Especially in a live situation. The fact that Edge can take simple notes and progressions and make them interesting is rare.

Zooropa is underrated. I'm not comparing it to Tusk, but it's like that...underappreciated. I think "Stay" is one of the best U2 songs ever. Dylan, and the Beatles, and every one of your favorite artists have all had their share of "filler."

I think people hate Bono because of his political awareness, and what comes across as arrogance. If you actually listen to Bono in any of his interviews...he's a pretty smart chap. And I think he genuinely cares for people, and those less fortunate. Bono doesn't HAVE to do any of the things that he does to help others. Some people view it as PR for his band. That could be true too, but I believe U2 would sell plenty of records and tickets without Bono being in the news.

U2 robbing from Dylan and the Beatles? Hasn't every successful band since the late 60s/early 70s borrowed from them in some way? U2's music has a good message, and they are seasoned musicians. The thing that really makes no sense here is why you dislike them so much.

Brwn_eyes0511

03-10-2006, 06:40 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I love that word :o

I especially love it when Christine says it! :blob1:

Peestie

03-12-2006, 08:22 AM

Wow, alotta drama in this thread!

Anyway, my unpopular opinion about Lindsey is that he was right. SYW should have been a double album. It wouldn't have sold as well, but all the songs on SYW are great IMO and I don't personally think it is too long or "packed" or anything like that.

elie

03-21-2006, 10:14 AM

I just came across this thread and I found it very interesting and full of useful technical information, at least for an ignorant like me. Seriously, I know nothing about guitar playing and what's more, I am not that much into rock music apart from FM and I admit that the solo part on "I'm so afraid' is the only solo in rock music history I could listen to the whole day. On another note, just to add my 2 cents on "best guitar players", after I made clear I don't have a favorite, I 'd like to say that I like Blixa Bargeld (for those who don't know him, he's Nick Cave's ex guitarist), who claims that he is not even a guitar player. He's trully innovative and he is amazing with slide and I 'm positive that Nick Cave would be nothing without his contribution to the Bad Seeds (not that he 's the highest selling artist anyway, but anyway..).

On the initial subject, I think I may have a couple of unpopular Lindsey opinions
1) I don't *hate* Not That Funny. I don't listen to it all the time, but I think I get the point and I think it is sort of smart.

2) I think that even if he hadn't written anything apart from "Big Love" I would still consider him a genious. Any artist who can reinvent his own song that way (the acoustic version that is) can be nothing less than a genious.

3) I think he was never very much into drugs.

4) He was way hotter during the Rumours era, with the beard and afro.

5) I don't think he 's still in love with Stevie. I think he was still crazy about her during the Tusk era (or maybe a bit later even- and who wouldn't be??) but I don't buy the "they had a thing going during the Dance or Say You Will etc" thing. It's been 30 years since they broke up for crying out loud and they both had numerous other relationships -and long lasting for that matter- since then. And I sometimes think that they use -in a good way- this special bond of theirs to please the fans who dream about them as a couple (I don't go as far as saying that they do it for commercial reasons, don't flame me!)

6) I don't believe he 's as experimental or innovative as he thinks, or (since I'm in no position of knowing what he 's thinking) as other people think.Maybe in terms of mainstream pop/rock he is, but not in general. I have heard groups and artists that really "deserve" more to be referred to as such.

7) I love his guitar playing without giving a dime whether he will ever be named in the top 10 all time greatest and I never felt like defending that he is the best or comparing him to others (but then again, as I said, I 'm totally clueless when it come to that).

That's all, sorry for the long post!

chiliD

03-21-2006, 11:38 AM

7) I love his guitar playing without giving a dime whether he will ever be named in the top 10 all time greatest and I never felt like defending that he is the best or comparing him to others...

Now THERE's what I was trying to get at earlier in the thread. :thumbsup:

Peestie

03-21-2006, 12:05 PM

1) I don't *hate* Not That Funny. I don't listen to it all the time, but I think I get the point and I think it is sort of smart.

I didn't realise that Not That Funny was so hated until I saw this post. I love it! One of my favourites off Tusk, or top 10 atleast since it's such a good album. I suppose I can see why people don't like it, but I think it's great.

madformac

03-21-2006, 12:16 PM

I didn't realise that Not That Funny was so hated until I saw this post. I love it! One of my favourites off Tusk, or top 10 atleast since it's such a good album. I suppose I can see why people don't like it, but I think it's great.

I've always hated it although it is less painful live than the album version.

Funnily enough I love IKINW but hate NTF which is very strange. :shrug:

chiliD

03-21-2006, 01:15 PM

I didn't realise that Not That Funny was so hated until I saw this post. I love it! One of my favourites off Tusk, or top 10 atleast since it's such a good album. I suppose I can see why people don't like it, but I think it's great.

I think the studio version of "Not That Funny" stinks (however, I don't outright hate it like I used to)...and, I've always liked the live version (although I think the extended jamming goes nowhere...compared to, let's say, a Grateful Dead or Allman Bros jam...and is pretty boring)

shackin'up

03-21-2006, 01:56 PM

Now THERE's what I was trying to get at earlier in the thread. :thumbsup:

That's not true.

You ALWAYS state that he is NOT one of the best. Reread the intelligent post
of Peestie and then all the posts of you in this thread and feel ashamed of the here quoted remark. In this thread you cannot stand in Peestie's shadow, you Pompous Ass.

shackin'up

03-21-2006, 02:07 PM

I think the studio version of "Not That Funny" stinks (however, I don't outright hate it like I used to)...and, I've always liked the live version (although I think the extended jamming goes nowhere...compared to, let's say, a Grateful Dead or Allman Bros jam...and is pretty boring)

The Dead the Bros...great sir. How can you possible compare that jammingwise? Early Mac Jammed ten times better, I know, but Lindsey Buckingham is the only white guitarplayer that I have heard in my entire life, that could jam with bass drums and keys ON HIS OWN. Ten minutes of NTF may not be musically entertaining for trained instrumentalists, but for people with a thing for drama this jam goes nowhere, correct, but leads to orgasm.

There. Sit on it.

....And because I love statements: Anyone who loves IKINW and hates NTF-studio has sh*t for brains.

Both songs are spectacular indiepoprockgems.

Put on a Clapton and fall asleep please.

madformac

03-21-2006, 03:43 PM

That's not true.
In this thread you cannot stand in Peestie's shadow, you Pompous Ass.

Are we going at it again Gezza? :blob1: :laugh:

Bring on another round!! woohoo... :laugh: :wavey:

madformac

03-21-2006, 03:53 PM

....And because I love statements: Anyone who loves IKINW and hates NTF-studio has sh*t for brains.

I must have got it from reading all your posts.... :D

Put on a Clapton and fall asleep please.

Put on Clapton, or Green for that matter and wake up to pure, natural jamming and blues improvisation. I really feel sorry for John McVie, another great blues improviser. Imagine having to put up with Lindsey's mindset and musical tendencies and play the same old songs night after night. John is a blues purest and you can see he has a tough time of it with LB. Mention the original Mac and he sits up and has the old tear in his eye. I don't think Mick is that bothered as long as they stay popular and make money.

Lindsey has made some great music and is a great guitarist but there is a connection to the roots of music missing in his playing and I hear it a mile off. But he's not alone. Many guitarists are the same. Music is what they are good at or it's their profession. But some guys ARE music. Eric is just that. Eric invented a style that has been copied by many many players, lindsey has been copied by a few. Isn't copying the best form of acknowledgment? Call all these players that followed bland but Eric made the mold.

Chester

03-21-2006, 08:13 PM

Eric invented a style that has been copied by many many players, lindsey has been copied by a few. Isn't copying the best form of acknowledgment?
But you can't possibly state that copying and acknowledgment is the only, or really even a good, way to judge how good a player is. Lindsey is not a very well known guitarist, but there are obviously many many obscure musicians that "are music." You make a good point that if somebody is copied a lot, they must be pretty good, but just because somebody isn't copied, that is a bad bad argument for how bad a player they are.

madformac

03-21-2006, 08:22 PM

You make a good point that if somebody is copied a lot, they must be pretty good, but just because somebody isn't copied, that is a bad bad argument for how bad a player they are.

I didn't say if a player wasn't copied that they are a bad player. You need to read it again.

Chester

03-21-2006, 10:17 PM

I didn't say if a player wasn't copied that they are a bad player. You need to read it again.
I didn't say you said that.

madformac

03-21-2006, 10:18 PM

I didn't say you said that.

Cool. :) :wavey:

shackin'up

03-22-2006, 05:51 AM

I must have got it from reading all your posts.... :D

Put on Clapton, or Green for that matter and wake up to pure, natural jamming and blues improvisation. I really feel sorry for John McVie, another great blues improviser. Imagine having to put up with Lindsey's mindset and musical tendencies and play the same old songs night after night. John is a blues purest and you can see he has a tough time of it with LB. Mention the original Mac and he sits up and has the old tear in his eye. I don't think Mick is that bothered as long as they stay popular and make money.
Has nothing to do with Lindsey. I have the old tear in my I too when I think about my first love. Yesterday evening I was watching that japanvideo from 77 and you simply can't say there is no jammingattitude BECAUSE of the addition of Buckingham in the band. That grew in the years they became outofproportionfamous. But all of them were part of that. John does not look unhappy when they played live the shows I've seen.

Lindsey has made some great music and is a great guitarist but there is a connection to the roots of music missing in his playing and I hear it a mile off. But he's not alone. Many guitarists are the same. Music is what they are good at or it's their profession. But some guys ARE music. Eric is just that. Eric invented a style that has been copied by many many players, lindsey has been copied by a few. Isn't copying the best form of acknowledgment? Call all these players that followed bland but Eric made the mold.

I thought that already. As long as you don't acknowledge folk and country to the roots of music, but only focus on the blues you're right. And about copying: Lindsey is very hard to copy because of his unique style and you know it. A lot of guitarists don't burn their fingers to copy him. That's good. He is a category on his own and there are not of lot stringmusicians that have that too. By the way: Lindsey's voice and singingstyle have always been a part of his muse: he's a packagedeal:lol: .

To name clapton and green in one breath you hurt me. Greeny lives in a complete other league. Green is God. Clapton is virtuous.

The diversity of singingstyles in combination with guitarwork makes someone bigger than life imo. In that apartement Lindsey AND Peter are from another world than Clapton.

And in that line: put on brothers in arms and fall asleep.

madformac

03-22-2006, 09:43 AM

Has nothing to do with Lindsey. I have the old tear in my I too when I think about my first love. Yesterday evening I was watching that japanvideo from 77 and you simply can't say there is no jammingattitude BECAUSE of the addition of Buckingham in the band. That grew in the years they became outofproportionfamous. But all of them were part of that. John does not look unhappy when they played live the shows I've seen.

Yes Buckingham jammed, more so upto '82. I'm not saying he never did. But it was always "safe" jamming within the confines of his comfort zone. Peter never did that, he was always off on some magical adventure. Clapton does stay within his comfort zone now but then he's played so many licks nothing could be seen as radical or different anymore. One thing I liked was the way Lindsey changed songs for a live environment. Look at the intro to The Chain from '77 to '82. It changed every year, as did ISA too, the famous pitbull. And Big Love/ Go Insane for that matter too :laugh: Now, since The Dance, everything has become rather stale. He should shake up the arrangements rather than try and recycle old songs and call them new names as he did on SYW. As for John, if he was asked for a direct answer I think he would rather play blues than rock. He's happy 'cos he's just playing live. It's his buzz in life.

I thought that already. As long as you don't acknowledge folk and country to the roots of music, but only focus on the blues you're right.

It's all based in the blues originally anyway. All the way back to gospel blues. :nod:

To name clapton and green in one breath you hurt me. Greeny lives in a complete other league. Green is God. Clapton is virtuous.

The diversity of singingstyles in combination with guitarwork makes someone bigger than life imo. In that apartement Lindsey AND Peter are from another world than Clapton.

Well putting Lindsey and Peter in the same breath dismays me. Peter and Clapton share more musical sensibilities than Lindsey shares with either of them. Yet another example of the lack of respect shown to Eric given the sheer volume of work he has done, on top of which he is responsible for the regeneration of blues, modern blues and in turn rock in North America since the British blues boom of the 60's.

If I had to give the prize for the most "blues with a feeling" it goes to Pete. Eric is more straight blues but Peter moved about within the genre.

And in that line: put on brothers in arms and fall asleep.

I can't argue with that 'cos it does make me drowsy. As good and poignant a song it is it can make me yawn. :laugh:

chiliD

03-22-2006, 01:02 PM

chiliD

03-22-2006, 01:07 PM

As long as you don't acknowledge folk and country to the roots of music, but only focus on the blues you're right.

"Blues" IS Negro folk music
"Country" is white people's blues.
"Jazz" is blues without boundaries
"Reggae" is Rasta-fied blues from Jamaica
"Rock & Roll" is blues with a backbeat

Again, it's all blues.

shackin'up

03-22-2006, 02:16 PM

"Blues" IS Negro folk music
"Country" is white people's blues.
"Jazz" is blues without boundaries
"Reggae" is Rasta-fied blues from Jamaica
"Rock & Roll" is blues with a backbeat

Again, it's all blues.

exactly. so why stating that lindsey's playing lacks the roots of music, like your dear english buddy does? It's bull. And you just proved me right. Thanks bud. And that on your fiftieth. feeling bluesy today?

shackin'up

03-22-2006, 02:52 PM

..........

Yes Buckingham jammed, more so upto '82. I'm not saying he never did. But it was always "safe" jamming within the confines of his comfort zone. Peter never did that, he was always off on some magical adventure. Clapton does stay within his comfort zone now but then he's played so many licks nothing could be seen as radical or different anymore. One thing I liked was the way Lindsey changed songs for a live environment. Look at the intro to The Chain from '77 to '82. It changed every year, as did ISA too, the famous pitbull. And Big Love/ Go Insane for that matter too :laugh:

Now, since The Dance, everything has become rather stale. He should shake up the arrangements rather than try and recycle old songs and call them new names as he did on SYW.

TRUE.
Partially:laugh:
He also performed/recorded Come, Red Rover, My little demon, Bleed to love her, Gift of Screws and Shut us down. Sorry dude but that's a pallet of approaches and genius that Clapton didn't reach all of his career.

And recycling old songs? Come on. Clapton does that an entire life. Not to mention Knopfler-MY GOD re rehashes every tone and melodyline he invented. Those few!
And about the thousands of licks that Clapton invented-his virtuosity is not at stake here- It's not about size, dude it's what you do with it.:lol:
It's not about licks, it's about how you compose with them.
At the very least Lindsey is more playful with it.

As for John, if he was asked for a direct answer I think he would rather play blues than rock. He's happy 'cos he's just playing live. It's his buzz in life.
So why didnt they play the blues again fullforce after Lindsey walked out?
I don't feel sorry for him. He makes his own choices. And he's as brilliant as a popbassist as he is as a bluesbassist.

It's all based in the blues originally anyway. All the way back to gospel blues. :nod:

So why state that lindsey's playing lacks the roots of music. :shrug: Stay coherent you stiff upper lip.

Well putting Lindsey and Peter in the same breath dismays me.

So what. You hurted me.:lol:
Peter and Clapton share more musical sensibilities than Lindsey shares with either of them.

Lindsey and Peter were both way more experimental in writing. They share a lot more than you want to receive. Someone who writes green manalishi and someone who writes So Afraid. Someone who writes Albatross and someone who writes DW Suite. The spectrum of their musical approach is so much broader.

Yet another example of the lack of respect shown to Eric given the sheer volume of work he has done, on top of which he is responsible for the regeneration of blues, modern blues and in turn rock in North America since the British blues boom of the 60's.

I respect Clapton. But I only really appreciated him during that short booming Creamperiod. THAT was searching for the bounderies and keep yourself sharp. Development. Although the main kick of Cream for me was the chemistry with that outofthisworld rythmsection.

If I had to give the prize for the most "blues with a feeling" it goes to Pete. Eric is more straight blues but Peter moved about within the genre.

And never looked outside of it. That's what's bugging me. Tunnel view.

I am one of the few people who really enjoys The End Of The Game. Nuts, with a lot of help from others, but BALLS BALLS BALLS.

I can't argue with that 'cos it does make me drowsy. As good and poignant a song it is it can make me yawn. :laugh:

I meant the whole album:lol: :lol:

madformac

03-22-2006, 02:56 PM

exactly. so why stating that lindsey's playing lacks the roots of music, like your dear english buddy does? It's bull. And you just proved me right. Thanks bud. And that on your fiftieth. feeling bluesy today?

Sorry Gerald but I think that herbal ( ;) ) medication has lobotomised you. :blob2:

I just can't hear anything in Lindsey's work that gives me any hint of the roots of the blues. I can't hear a connection. Just as an example I wince at Green Manalishi and Oh Well when he's played them, it sounds like a cover, all processed notes...

OK, fair point, if you play any modern music then ultimately you have to be influenced by blues, even if you don't understand it or believe it but the link is lost with Buck for me. It's like saying a 2000 year old Sequoia and an Ikea coffee table are the same thing because they are both made of wood. One has had its roots in the earth for 2 milllennia, it lives, breathes and grows with time. The other was a rooted entity once for a time but became a processed, self repeating and clinical device with one use and for me its to put my double espresso on. :wavey:

shackin'up

03-22-2006, 03:01 PM

Sorry Gerald but I think that herbal ( ;) ) medication has lobotomised you. :blob2:

I just can't hear anything in Lindsey's work that gives me any hint of the roots of the blues. I can't hear a connection.

You are a real superficial listener/reader. I don't hear blues either. I hear Folk country and jazziness. I thought we agreed on the fact that that was roots too.

madformac

03-22-2006, 03:41 PM

..........TRUE.
Partially
He also performed/recorded Come, Red Rover, My little demon, Bleed to love her, Gift of Screws and Shut us down. Sorry dude but that's a pallet of approaches and genius that Clapton didn't reach all of his career.

Well Come is something a 5 year old could play. it's all distortion and self repeating indulgence. Red Rover is an extention of his "Big Love cycle" which I already praised. Bleed To Love Her is nothing new in terms of approach. Gift Of Screws was recorded at an age when an artist could get away with experimentation without being labelled neurotic, hell it was recorded, what, 11 years ago and he's still not released it? Now it's just too late for him to get away with it. Shut Us Down is another slightly adapted take on the "Big Love cycle"

I thought Murrow, the studio version anyway, was fresh. He f**ked it right up on Soundstage IMHO. What a wasted opportunity.

"Shuffle Riff" if it ever sees the light of day is a strong piece that has for me survived the 11 year and counting wait. That's quite fresh.

And recycling old songs? Come on. Clapton does that an entire life. Not to mention Knopfler-MY GOD re rehashes every tone and melodyline he invented. Those few!

Knopfler can play any musical style with ease whatever you believe G. Blues, country, jazz, rock, pop, whatever. One of my favorite MK songs he didn't even play or sing on which is Private Dancer. It's just that nowadays Mark chooses what he wants to play. Like Clapton he doesn't feel the need to show off. He's a mature adult at peace with his sound and playing, they really have nothing to prove and you can add Gilmour, Page and most other mature players to that list. Lindsey is a different animal. It's like he still feels the need to prove himself. The so called "experimentation" to me is a sign of an O/C disorder. With all due respect, it's anal, it's childish and he needs to grow up now. Maybe he thinks he will top Rumours if he tweaks it long enough, I don't know why he hasn't released more work. He should stop trying to experiment and analyse everything and just release something. If I was at Warner/Reprise I'd release him.

And about the thousands of licks that Clapton invented-his virtuosity is not at stake here- It's not about size, dude it's what you do with it.
It's not about licks, it's about how you compose with them.
At the very least Lindsey is more playful with it.

Playful or anal, depends on your perspective. Again, I would suggest the latter. I'm quite sure Warner/Reprise won't let him steer the good ship Mac again. If they work on a new studio album it'll be all change in the production department. Clapton is not experimental now, I would agree. He certainly was for many years but my argument with him is a feeling for music and jamming, not studio experimentation. That was Jimi's department, you could draw a parrallel between Jimi and Buckingham more. Although Jimi could play the blues as well as anybody, again, he chose not to.

I don't feel sorry for him. He makes his own choices. And he's as brilliant as a popbassist as he is as a bluesbassist.

John's versatile for sure. He could put a bassline to anything. Do I think he gets the vibe with Lindsey like he did with Peter or Clapton? No I don't. Not for a second. If you read between the lines of John's interviews it's very apparent. He's too much of a gent to actually say it (plus working with LB pays the bills!)

Lindsey and Peter were both way more experimental in writing. They share a lot more than you want to receive. Someone who writes green manalishi and someone who writes So Afraid. Someone who writes Albatross and someone who writes DW Suite. The spectrum of their musical approach is so much broader.

Again you are diverting me away from my arguement. I'm talking about live interaction. Instant, at that moment abilities and feeling. I'm not talking about studio experimentation. I think you need to read the thread again my fellow European. Any f**kwit can spend years in a studio, hit cardboard boxes and sit on his own long enough to convince himself something sounds great when everybody else is out on the road interacting with others. Lindsey has done some very radical studio work. I love Play In The Rain for example. Why hasn't he been performing that, or say Loving Cup live? He can't translate it live thats why. Lindsey is very experimental, as was Hendrix. I would say from a studio point Lindsey was far more experimental than all the artists mentioned, maybe with the exception of Gilmour in his prime. BUT, this is not what I'm getting at and you know it. The best way of admitting defeat is to change the subject. Admit it and we'll move on. :thumbsup:

I meant the whole album

I agree with that too... :lol:

Chester

03-22-2006, 03:45 PM

I don't see why you are tyring to convince each other that Lindsey's songs do or do not have blues influences. He obviously doesn't have have any roots in blues and we all know it. He doesn't belong in the same sentences with blues. And in my opinion, he's not really that great of a lead palyer like the Claptons of the world are. He just that little old master finger picker who sounds like multiple guitarists when he plays. That's what he's good at and comparing him to all these other "virtuosos" is pretty pointless because he is unlike any others. He's better at what he does than anyone else and everyone else is better at what they do than him. Just my take on the man named Lindsey. :)

Chester

03-22-2006, 03:47 PM

Well Come is something a 5 year old could play.

:shocked: Incorrect sir! John can barely play it!

wondergirl9847

03-22-2006, 03:50 PM

Lindsey is a different animal. It's like he still feels the need to prove himself.

The whole world worships Hendrix, Gilmour, Page, etc., but people don't really know who Lindsey is. "Who's she?" :rolleyes: Of course, he's trying to prove himself, he's not respected like those other guys. :distress:

tuigirl

03-22-2006, 03:53 PM

thing is does he need to prove himself? why? He's good just the way he is

madformac

03-22-2006, 03:54 PM

madformac

03-22-2006, 03:55 PM

:shocked: Incorrect sir! John can barely play it!

John plays the bass. he's not hitting a guitar like a naughty child in a guitar store.. Then rolling around on the floor.. :laugh: :wavey:

Chester

03-22-2006, 03:59 PM

Maybe he thinks he will top Rumours if he tweaks it long enough
I have to quote you one last time! I think it was you that said something like this somewhere in another post, that Lindsey wants commercial success badly and is afraid of not topping Rumours. That is an argument that confuses me beyond belief. When has he ever done something that was all about him trying to acheive great commercial success? As recently as the Destiny Rules documentrry, he was talking all about how he didn't care if the album sold well, as long as the right people heard it, and most importantly as long as it turned out the way he wanted. In fact, he has said numerous times that he doesn't particularly like Rumours. If he had wanted to reach that level of commercial success again, Rumours 2 back in 1979 would have been a darn good way to do it, or in any years since then, really.

madformac

03-22-2006, 04:07 PM

The whole world worships Hendrix, Gilmour, Page, etc., but people don't really know who Lindsey is. "Who's she?" :rolleyes: Of course, he's trying to prove himself, he's not respected like those other guys. :distress:

Christy. As I explained earlier. He can't be experimental and boundary pushing AND be commercially successful. The other guys have sold more albums and as a result get the praise. Because of what he does it won't happen. But he gets upset by what to me seems an obvious fact. Maybe it's the root of his problems. He doesn't need to prove himself. He should live with the level he has achieved. But he can't. He's an egomanic.

A very good friend of ours said to me yesterday LBs problem is he acts like an unsigned young artist at times and the big rockstar at other times..

It's this power struggle in his head that stops him from accepting his position in the rock world IMO.

shackin'up

03-22-2006, 04:27 PM

Christy. As I explained earlier. He can't be experimental and boundary pushing AND be commercially successful. The other guys have sold more albums and as a result get the praise. Because of what he does it won't happen. But he gets upset by what to me seems an obvious fact. Maybe it's the root of his problems. He doesn't need to prove himself. He should live with the level he has achieved. But he can't. He's an egomanic.

A very good friend of ours said to me yesterday LBs problem is he acts like an unsigned young artist at times and the big rockstar at other times..

It's this power struggle in his head that stops him from accepting his position in the rock world IMO.

that is true. i love him.

madformac

03-22-2006, 04:35 PM

I have to quote you one last time! I think it was you that said something like this somewhere in another post, that Lindsey wants commercial success badly and is afraid of not topping Rumours. That is an argument that confuses me beyond belief. When has he ever done something that was all about him trying to acheive great commercial success? As recently as the Destiny Rules documentrry, he was talking all about how he didn't care if the album sold well, as long as the right people heard it, and most importantly as long as it turned out the way he wanted. In fact, he has said numerous times that he doesn't particularly like Rumours. If he had wanted to reach that level of commercial success again, Rumours 2 back in 1979 would have been a darn good way to do it, or in any years since then, really.

RIGHT.

I'm going to explain this once more and for the final time. Lindsey is a human contradiction.

He wants and craves the praise but has a problem accepting it. The root of it lies in Stevie's solo career. She has had a successful and acclaimed solo career. Sold many records and most of her songs are mainstream. Lindsey's first solo attempt was relatively mainstream but not the commercial success he maybe wanted. After the success of the eponymous album and Rumours he probably thought that he could push some boundaries with Tusk and get away with it because of the previous successes. To a degree he did. It sold millions but was still percieved as a flop because it didn't capture the public like Rumours. It was brave of Lindsey but it also started his path to self destruction.

After the so called "flop" of Tusk and the lack of commercial praise for Law and Order, combined with Stevie's success with Bella Donna Lindsey would have felt both dismayed and pissed off, he had been down three times, so to speak. So, after the reasonably mainstream approach of Law And Order failed, with Go Insane he did what he wanted to do. It was radical, unique and very experimental and if I may say so, quite brilliant too. I'm sure he felt it wasn't going to be successful but I'm sure he still wanted it to be, commercially anyway. Despite his feelings he was still hurt when it sold as he probably predicted. Tango was to be a solo project, you can hear some of his experimental style here but it was held back and "mainstreamed" for the sake of Fleetwood Mac. It sold pretty well and I think this pissed him off too. The fact you could put "Fleetwood Mac" on it and it would sell.

So his way of dealing with his commercial failures is to say he's tried to stay true to his musical sense and stay experimental and not to "sell out". It's his standard answer to the critics when if he had the praise he surely wanted it would not be an issue. The problem with this is he is a multi millionaire successful rockstar so he can't play the poor underdog nobody understands. He is richer and more famous than probably 98% of all artists on the planet. He cannot play the experimentalist and then the successful rockstar too and expect to be taken seriously. It's petulant and childish. He makes the music he wants to make for those "300,000" that want it yet he is also willing to jump on the Rumours gravytrain to make the money too.

He should admit to this, say f**k it, I'll use my solo career to do my own thing and Mac to pay the bills. Then he might get more due praise.

wondergirl9847

03-22-2006, 04:51 PM

madformac

03-22-2006, 04:59 PM

:)

I get what you're saying, J. He wants to be weird and successful, but you can't be both. It sucks, but people want safe sh*t...all the time. Safe is cool, but I love when he gets crazy weird like GI, Time Bomb Town and Red Rover, stuff like that, but most people aren't like Gerald and I. Right, G? ;).

I'm in the select group that loves Time Bomb Town. I love the whole GI album but I'm not keen on Red Rover but I love Shut Us Down. No doubt Gerald will reaffirm his suggestion I have s**t for brains.. :laugh:

You are 100% right with the whole Stevie thing. The fact that she was super successful was crushing to him and that ego of his. Of course he's childish and egotistical. She is too. They were both raised in a perfect environment, spoiled rotten, etc.

It's basic psychology. Does anybody, deep down, really believe Lindsey is happy if his albums fail to sell, no matter what he records? No of course not. Is he even less happy if Stevies sell very well in comparison? Of course. The whole "tortured artist" front he portrays is his way of dealing with it in his own mind. (Am I starting to sound like Frasier? :laugh: )

I still love his music more than words can say.

Which is the most important thing. If it works for you great.

Despite what people may think, Lindsey's work is important to me. It's just it stimulates my brain more than my heart I guess.

TomBanks147

03-22-2006, 05:25 PM

Tango was to be a solo project, you can hear some of his experimental style here but it was held back and "mainstreamed" for the sake of Fleetwood Mac. It sold pretty well and I think this pissed him off too. The fact you could put "Fleetwood Mac" on it and it would sell.

You know it's weird you should say that but also quite true.

There are 12 songs on Tango he wrote 7 of them (2 with christine but still 7) The other 5 songs are brilliant yes but without Lindseys addition to them I don't think they would be anywhere near as good. I think Lindseys subtle additions to them really made the songs. Little Lies and Everywhere must be 2 of the most played Fleetwood Mac songs here in the UK and (IMO) without Lindsey I don't think they would be anywhere near the song they are. He came up with the cover and name of the album. He produced and engineered it.

This album was BOTH experimental AND sucsesfull. What more could he want?

madformac

03-22-2006, 05:37 PM

This album was BOTH experimental AND sucsesfull. What more could he want?

And he never mentions it which is so very odd..... AND, which Tango songs does he play live? None, nada, squat, zero. Big Love is totally different to the Tango version and I don't class it as the same song.

I so wish he would play the original Big Love arrangement live. And I want to hear Tango In The Night live too. He could put a mammoth solo on this song. :nod:

Peestie

03-22-2006, 06:13 PM

That's not true.

You ALWAYS state that he is NOT one of the best. Reread the intelligent post
of Peestie and then all the posts of you in this thread and feel ashamed of the here quoted remark. In this thread you cannot stand in Peestie's shadow, you Pompous Ass.

I think you got me confused with someone else, what did I say that was intelligent? Both my posts were really short.

As far as Lindsey is concerned I like the "tortured artist" persona. Whether it is a show (just like Alice Cooper isn't the same guy he is on albums/stage) or real it gives him... character :p .

He's neurotic and doesn't let things go until he's happy with them, and then once he has done what he wanted he gets pissed that it isn't as successful, but I think I'm exactly the same so I can't criticize. I just spent the last few days (or weeks, I can't remember) tabbing the studio version of ISA with all the instruments and vocals on Guitar Pro 5 and I have it as close as I can get (or as I'm going to get at any rate) and after all that I'm still reluctant to post it on www.mysongbook.com where others can see it, even though the whole point of making it was to post it there. I'm scared it won't be good enough since I know it isn't EXACTLY perfect, even though I know it would be one of the better ones on the site and another member told me it was very good. In the same way I think Lindsey just is so scared of people not like his albums and them not having success to the point where he doesn't want to release it. No matter how good people tell him his album is HE can see what isn't "exactly perfect" about it since it's his creation and those are the things that stick out to him, not the good points so he is always tweaking and changing. A pointless analogy, but my way of saying I understand how he might feel, even though I'm not selling thousands of albums :p

mylittledemon

03-22-2006, 07:26 PM

. And I want to hear Tango In The Night live too. He could put a mammoth solo on this song. :nod:

That guitar solo is so fun to play. It's short but I like it.

TomBanks147

03-23-2006, 10:28 AM

And he never mentions it which is so very odd..... AND, which Tango songs does he play live? None, nada, squat, zero. Big Love is totally different to the Tango version and I don't class it as the same song.

I so wish he would play the original Big Love arrangement live. And I want to hear Tango In The Night live too. He could put a mammoth solo on this song. :nod:

We see Lindsey songs from the White album, Rumours, Tusk, Mirage, SYW but NOT tango. (apart from the accoustic Big Love) but why?

Tango in the night climaxes for a PERFECT guitar solo at the end you would think he would ditch "I'm so afraid" for it. Lidsey should be proud of the album because he got best of both worlds and it was totally him that made the album but I've never once heard him mention it.

Chester

03-23-2006, 12:52 PM

Lidsey should be proud of the album because he got best of both worlds and it was totally him that made the album but I've never once heard him mention it.
He wasn't exactly happy with the band at the time so maybe he doesn't like bringing up the horrible time in his life. Maybe he also resents the band for stealing away his solo project from him. Come to think of it, he doesn't mention Mirage all that much either, and he didn't have any big hits from Mriage or Tango, so maybe he truly does focus too much on commercial success and he's embarassed when his songs flop!

David

03-23-2006, 01:27 PM

He wasn't exactly happy with the band at the time so maybe he doesn't like bringing up the horrible time in his life. Maybe he also resents the band for stealing away his solo project from him. Come to think of it, he doesn't mention Mirage all that much either, and he didn't have any big hits from Mriage or Tango, so maybe he truly does focus too much on commercial success and he's embarassed when his songs flop!I don't think he's as concerned about songs "flopping" as he is about the entire album as a whole, which is largely his production, arrangement & engineering work. "Tango" garned a lot of praise for just those features, & I'm sure that must have pleased him to no end. In fact, someone (madformac?) said earlier, or at least implied it, that Stevie's solo career was more acclaimed than Lindsey's solo career. I guess it all depends on just what you mean by that word "acclaimed." To me, that refers to critical reception, but I guess it could just as easily refer to public -- or mass -- acclaim. But if the former, there's simply no contest between Lindsey's solo albums & Stevie's solo albums: Lindsey's albums were all of them critical favorites, whereas there was never even a single solo album of Stevie's that had anywhere near the critical reception that his did. If Stevie's success irks Lindsey (& I guess it does & did), it's based solely on her public popularity, not what critics/writers & other musicians, engineers & producers have said, because Lindsey has scooped that aspect. He said back in 1981 (talking to Blair Jackson, I think) that he is appreciated for the specific reasons that are important to him (musicianship, creative arrangements, excellent production), & he was right. He wasn't bluffing that or making it up. He is, historically speaking, one of the most critically acclaimed recordmakers from the mainstream of the 1970s & '80s. A quick trip through the Blue Letter Archives will remind you if you don't remember.

So, again, it's Stevie's popularity with the public that might irk him, but certainly not her critical reception, which has been mostly a long tale of woe for her, interspersed with anomalistic & infrequent (& very reserved) praise.

David

03-23-2006, 01:29 PM

Lidsey should be proud of the album because he got best of both worlds and it was totally him that made the album but I've never once heard him mention it.Well, he might not mention it much any more (who does except fans?) but I think he is very proud of the album & used to say so back when the album was news.

strandinthewind

03-23-2006, 01:34 PM

^^^^

I agree David. I think though that LB's jealousy came more so from the fact that the girl that jilted him made good on her own. In other words, he was hurt that she no longer needed him to be a success. Male ego can be a frail thing ya know.

Also, I think La Nicks' first two records would have been panned by the critics no matter how inventive, stellar, good, etc. they were. I think critics love to take cheap shots at her, and that is sad because those first to records were mostly great to these ears. And - she, too, took risks. I mean "Beauty and the Beast" certainly was one as was the country flavor in Bella Donna. Those things were not on the radio at that point in time.

In any event, I think LB likes to take risks, but, creatively, he arrives at the end result via ideas from other artists a la the self-admitted "Jive Talking" vibe to "Second Hand News" and his whole Everly Brothers esq. flair to the Mirage and solo stuff.

David

03-23-2006, 04:20 PM

I agree David. I think though that LB's jealousy came more so from the fact that the girl that jilted him made good on her own. In other words, he was hurt that she no longer needed him to be a success. Male ego can be a frail thing ya know.Yeah he was irked to see Stevie Nicks make such a splash in the music business. That rubbed him the wrong way for many a year, perhaps until even today.
Also, I think La Nicks' first two records would have been panned by the critics no matter how inventive, stellar, good, etc. they were. I think critics love to take cheap shots at her, and that is sad because those first to records were mostly great to these ears.Well, I think critics who just take cheap shots are either bad critics or not critics at all. I mean, not all critics are equally worthy of reading or understanding. I think that many genuinely fine critics -- I would say "most" but no matter how much we think we have read, we haven't read "most" -- for the most part dismissed Stevie not with cheap shots but with honest responses of impatience with or uninterest in her work. Just because a critic says something negative about your favorite artist doesn't mean you should just dismiss that critic's opinion as a cheap shot. It might be a cheap shot, but it might be an honest reaction that is well-wrought & well thought out & justified (from the critic's perspective). Under the rubric 'critic' you have dumb reviewers like Michael Musto or the Entertainment Weekly staff & you have first-rate rock critics like Steve Simels of Stereo Review (who never had anything good to say about Stevie except that she had a voice like a "no-nonsense country belter like Brenda Lee") & Robert Hilburn of the L.A. Times (who felt Nicks was just an average songwriter & an occasionally brilliant but mostly narcissistic performer) & Robert Christgau (who thought Stevie was just a mooncalf) & Steve Pond (who always felt Stevie was Fleetwood Mac's weak link in the chain & not to be taken seriously).

And - she, too, took risks. I mean "Beauty and the Beast" certainly was one as was the country flavor in Bella Donna. Those things were not on the radio at that point in time.well you know what they say, one man's meat is another man's poison. I'm not sure that the pop-country style of "Bella Donna" was either totally Stevie's doing or all that new. It was essentially the same sound that this same group of studio musicians brought to all their work throughout the 1970s on albums by Jackson Browne, Linda Ronstadt, Andrew Gold, etc. It was all sort of Eagles-derived country-pop, much of it on "Bella Donna" attributable sonically to Waddy Wachtel's slide guitar playing. Writers at the time (& still today for all I know) called it "the L.A. session player sound."

I think Stevie's big risk was actually an enormously big risk, but it's one that isn't often talked about as having been a risk: Her staunch decision to maintain her very personal visual & musical style (however you want to characterize it) year after year in both her solo act & her work with Fleetwood Mac. Rock fads fueld by MTV came & went, but Stevie Nicks was Stevie Nicks .... just about forever.
In any event, I think LB likes to take risks, but, creatively, he arrives at the end result via ideas from other artists a la the self-admitted "Jive Talking" vibe to "Second Hand News" and his whole Everly Brothers esq. flair to the Mirage and solo stuff.Of course that in & of itself says something about the artist: From whom or from what does he steal? I think more highly of an artist, ceteris paribus, who steals something from the Everly Brothers than from Nick Gilder.

Of course, even that isn't a hard & fast rule, only a generality, because it says something important about the artist's own tastes & proclivities.

madformac

03-23-2006, 05:18 PM

Lindsey has recieved a lot of critical acclaim for both his solo and Mac work. I recall many favorable reviews of Out Of The Cradle back in 1992. Stevie got the majority of commercial success. So each, as David stated, got praise. Just in different forms.

My belief is that Lindsey being a male (and a Libran one too as I speak from experience here) wants his cake and to eat it too. He wants to push boundaries, he wants critical acclaim but he also want commercial success. It's his ego that can't accept he can't have everything. I'm sure Stevie's success in terms of "breaking out" as a solo artist without his help as Strand mentioned only made his feelings worse. The fact is he is well respected in his field and critically successful. It's a shame for him he can't be so commercial but it's never going to happen with the record buying masses stuck in the same arena of always buying the safe, radio friendly albums.

Now just going off subject slightly and going back to the other artists I've mentioned earlier I'm seeing a picture of Lindsey's personality here.

If anybody has listened to David Gilmour's new album "On An Island" they will have noticed a lot of the songs and themes are to do with his domestic bliss, his wife and children. Now, if you listen to Eric Clapton's last album "Back Home" the theme is the same. Both equate Heaven to be the relationship they have with their partners. Both sing about their children and the relationships within the family. Both these guys are in their early 60's. They both have young wives and young children. Both have settled down and after years of living the rock star life are now happy and domesticated. The music is laid back and serene in places. You could even argue the same with Mark Knopfler, again he is in his late 50's with a younger wife and young children too. Although his songs are not about domestic bliss they have a laid back maturity to them. It's almost like they have found peace within themselves, or as Gerald would point out, they have gone boring and mainstream.. :laugh:

So we come to Lindsey. He's into his later 50's, young wife, young kids, so naturally we expect more of the above... But no. His music still has an edge and a manicness which suggests he is yet to settle down. Given his antics on the last tour, grinding, flailing and prancing around onstage and the urgency with some of his newer material it could be argued he is either still in a mid-life crisis and or he still believes he is a young man and refuses to grow up. I think he is to be both applauded and yet criticised for his unique behaviour. He certainly has some demons in there..

Chester

03-23-2006, 05:56 PM

Not all musicians have to become serene peaceful musicians. Lindsey certainly acts in interviews like he is at peace, constantly talking about this being the best time in his life (musically and creatively:rolleyes: ). Maybe he just likes loud music and likes to have fun on stage. I don't think he needs to be criticized for his uniqueness. Still having energy at 56 is a bad thing?

madformac

03-23-2006, 06:21 PM

I don't think he needs to be criticized for his uniqueness. Still having energy at 56 is a bad thing?

I don't think it's a case of energy, it's more to do, I believe, with feeling he still needs to prove how good he is. It all stems from the issues I mentioned earlier. He's still not comfortable with his status in the music industry in terms of public praise.

There's nothing wrong with rolling around on stage, smashing guitars, simulating sex with it etc etc etc. But I don't recall it as part of his stage act in the past, in his younger days, so why now? Lindsey has an unfulfilled need and this is the physical manifestation of it.

Alice Cooper, Aerosmith, The Who and any other older rockers who still show off on stage is fine. But they have been doing it all their career, Lindsey hasn't. Something has triggered it and I think it's his need for public adulation. It always raised an eyebrow of mine when Stevie left the stage for "Come". :)

Chester

03-23-2006, 08:51 PM

There's nothing wrong with rolling around on stage, smashing guitars, simulating sex with it etc etc etc. But I don't recall it as part of his stage act in the past, in his younger days, so why now?
Maybe the simulating sex and guitar smashing is new, but he has always been rather manic. I see these things as just new ways of letting his manic nature come out because he isn't quite as nimble as he was during say, the Mirage dvd, to be able to run around the stage for the entrie show. Just some manic antics while standing in place will suffice these days. :thumbsup:

It always raised an eyebrow of mine when Stevie left the stage for "Come". :)
Uh, she doesn't sing in the song? I don't think it has to do with him needing the spotlight. Or was this a joke?:confused:

madformac

03-23-2006, 09:27 PM

Maybe the simulating sex and guitar smashing is new, but he has always been rather manic. I see these things as just new ways of letting his manic nature come out because he isn't quite as nimble as he was during say, the Mirage dvd, to be able to run around the stage for the entrie show. Just some manic antics while standing in place will suffice these days. :thumbsup:

He's not been "manic" as far as I know. You would have to ask David or ChiliD, those guys have seen far more of LB than I have. In '75 to '77 all his effort was seemingly put into the singing/playing as far as I know. '79 he was pretty wild at times but still focused. 1982 produced his most wild times I think but still the playing was amazing, strutting around and stuff is hardly manic, his guitar work was at it's most creative live I believe in '82. In 1992/93 he had the gimic of seven guitarists or whatever it was but he was still pretty focused. In 1997 he was pretty focused on the job too. 2003/4 for the most part he was. I'm So Afraid got out of hand a couple of times and the Come antics were some kind of novelty act I guess. Very out of character and I've heard quite a few fans of LB express embarassment at it. The Come solo's were really nothing a moderately good guitarist couldn't attempt. He couldn't do those stage antics and play something tough too. I'm just confused by why he did it. I guess it's just some kind of rebellion. I'd also add I believe he is far fitter now than he was in '82 so I don't understand the thinking there.

Uh, she doesn't sing in the song? I don't think it has to do with him needing the spotlight. Or was this a joke?:confused:

No. You need to expand your thinking here Chester.

From what I understand (maybe a Stevie fan can add some info) she refused to be onstage during that song for whatever reasons, maybe it's the lyrical content or it's his antics I don't know personally. I did notice from my experiences it was the song chosen by the crowds at every gig I was at to go for a drinks/pee break. She could have sung on it I'm sure. She sings on ISA so whats the difference? Apart from Lindsey's little spotlight stint with Big Love or Go Insane she would be expected to stay onstage really.

strandinthewind

03-23-2006, 09:39 PM

David -

I agree mostly with what you said, esp. about good and bad critics, etc. However, my point was, albeit poorly made, that I think the male critics were quick to judge her more harshly for a variety of reasons. I do not think LB got that same initial pre disposition for a bad review. I hope that made sense :laugh:

As for pushing the envelope - there can be no question that LB loves to push it in a variety of ways, while La Nicks is not nearly as much so.

David

03-23-2006, 09:42 PM

He's not been "manic" as far as I know. You would have to ask David or ChiliD, those guys have seen far more of LB than I have. In '75 to '77 all his effort was seemingly put into the singing/playing as far as I know. '79 he was pretty wild at times but still focused. 1982 produced his most wild times I think but still the playing was amazing, strutting around and stuff is hardly manic, his guitar work was at it's most creative live I believe in '82.No his most creative playing onstage was in 1980 (thanks to tightness, confidence & exhaustion). He was pretty wild & freakazoid then, too. I mean, it's hard to sing "What Makes You Think You're the One" without freaking out.

I would say for the last FM tour, he was just a little more cartoonish: it was like looking at all his earlier energy through a magnifying prism--it was both a little bigger & more distorted.
I'm just confused by why he did it. I guess it's just some kind of rebellion.The answer to me is obvious: it's his current way of infusing some rock & roll attitude into the proceedings. Problem is, when the guy is 55 or 60 years old, is balding in front, has a shock of Art Garfunkel hair in back, & is surrounded onstage by backup players all smiling blankly & a zonked-out middle-aged woman, it looks pretty dorky to me. In the distant past it never looked idiotic because the whole FM band looked like rock stars.
I'd also add I believe he is far fitter now than he was in '82 so I don't understand the thinking there.Nah. You're never in better shape at 55 than you are at 35 -- unless you were a hippopotamus at 35.
From what I understand (maybe a Stevie fan can add some info) she refused to be onstage during that song for whatever reasons, maybe it's the lyrical content or it's his antics I don't know personally. She doesn't like the song. She said so somewhere ... She wouldn't even have to say so. All you have to do is listen to it & know immediately that this is not a song that Stevie Nicks is going to embrace.

When Stevie doesn't like a song, she goes backstage for a rest. It's tradition.

strandinthewind

03-23-2006, 09:57 PM

. . . She could have sung on it I'm sure. She sings on ISA so whats the difference? Apart from Lindsey's little spotlight stint with Big Love or Go Insane she would be expected to stay onstage really.

I think she offered to sing on Big Love and in fact did sing on it to IMO wild success on the Letterman Dance era appearance. To me, her spot on high harmony realy added to the song. So, I think either it is his moment and she respects that. I mean he does shine on those. I think she hates LB's Come :come: Finally, she has been singing on ISA with a few exceptions since the 70's, when they were much more of a band, so I think that is why she still does.

madformac

03-23-2006, 10:17 PM

The answer to me is obvious: it's his current way of infusing some rock & roll attitude into the proceedings. Problem is, when the guy is 55 or 60 years old, is balding in front, has a shock of Art Garfunkel hair in back, & is surrounded onstage by backup players all smiling blankly & a zonked-out middle-aged woman, it looks pretty dorky to me. In the distant past it never looked idiotic because the whole FM band looked like rock stars.

I think thats a pretty valid statement David. If you look back, Stevie was far more ferocious then, John was a "monster", Mick was Animal and Lindsey was Lindsey. :laugh:

Now, Stevie is older and more cautious, John is still a monster, just more restrained, Mick is not a Keith Moon figure now but I actually thought he pulled off "manic" pretty well on World Turning on the last tour. Lindsey is still Lindsey.. :nod:

Nah. You're never in better shape at 55 than you are at 35 -- unless you were a hippopotamus at 35.

Depends on your "influences". Outwards appearances are not everything I've found. Metabolic issues, enlarged heart, fatty liver, dopamine imbalances, cerebellum and hippocampus related problems, etc all through "habits". I'm not saying Lindsey was a walking wreck like Elvis but it can take it's toll. Look at Mick now as opposed to then. Hell, look at Ginger Baker, he doesn't look like he will die on his stool these days! Fruit and water beats coke and brandy. :nod:

Gwillaker

03-24-2006, 01:07 AM

The 'fro was not cool....

The Tango hair, on the other hand, was. :thumbsup:

I don't understand Tusk. At all. Sorry.

I'll think of more.
Aw, no way! I used to wish I could have a "fro" like that! :confused:

But the tango hair was cool. Dammit, he always has cool hair. Dunno how he does it! :confused:

Chester

03-24-2006, 01:21 AM

She could have sung on it I'm sure. She sings on ISA so whats the difference? Apart from Lindsey's little spotlight stint with Big Love or Go Insane she would be expected to stay onstage really.
She sings on the album version of ISA. She doesn't sing on the album version of Come, so why live? She didn't sing on Not That Funny on Tusk and she didn't live. Both are big Lindsey spotlight kind of songs, and she surely hates them both to no end. I don't see why she would be expected to be on stage when we have never heard her sing any part of it, and it's not like it's a song that translates to the tamborine easily! Plus, it's 10 minutes long!

Oykamu

03-24-2006, 01:29 AM

Lindsey lies consistently when he's talking about the state of the band. I think it's something that every person in the band has done and I realize that in promo interviews for an album you aren't going to talk about how much you hate each other, but it's amusing now. There was an interview on YouTube for a while with Stevie and Lindsey about the recording of TItN. He was talking out of his ASS about how "healing" the session had been and how much more together the band felt. There's also the sound clip with him talking about Never Going Back Again and saying how much happier they are now than when they were recording it, but it still makes them miserable when they sing it. Now fifteen, twenty years later he's saying that that was the worst time of his life.

Faults aside, I still love Lindsey.

shackin'up

03-24-2006, 03:58 AM

cliffdweller

03-24-2006, 10:23 AM

I was in texas and oklahoma and london in 2003

I wish we could have visited more at the Dallas show Gerald! From our brief interaction you seemed like a really cool guy. My husband really enjoyed talking to you too!

Anyway, I'm glad you fight to the death for your favorite guitar player, I think he's rad and I don't take too kindly to music snobs telling me "he's not the best" and then letting that statement proceed to knock him down a notch on the old musician scale and overshadow his amazing and unique style. I much prefer his playing to Clapton :eek: why? Because Clapton bores me to tears, leaves me cold, meh, blah, whatever, blues riff this, blues riff that, it's all formulaic wankering. Lindsey's playing is edgy, fun, manic, crazy, beautiful, heartbreaking, and downright hooky and foot-stomping all on the same record. In short, his playing moves me too, and for that, he is one of MY favorite guitarists. End of story.