Cheney accidentally shoots fellow hunter

[gldstwmn]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/12/cheney.ap/index.html

was in the line of fire and got peppered pretty good'

Sunday, February 12, 2006; Posted: 4:40 p.m. EST (21:40 GMT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot and injured a man during a weekend quail hunting trip in Texas, his spokeswoman said Sunday.

Harry Whittington, 78, was "alert and doing fine" after Cheney sprayed him with shotgun pellets on Saturday while the two were hunting at the Armstrong Ranch in south Texas, said property owner Katharine Armstrong.

Armstrong said Whittington was mostly injured on his right side, with the pellets hitting his cheek, neck and chest, and was taken to the hospital by ambulance.

Whittington was in stable condition Sunday, said Yvonne Wheeler, spokeswoman for the Christus Spohn Health System.

Cheney's spokeswoman, Lea Anne McBride, said the vice president was with Whittington, a lawyer from Austin, Texas, and his wife at the hospital on Sunday afternoon.

Armstrong said she was watching from a car while Cheney, Whittington and another hunter got out of the vehicle to shot at a covey of quail late afternoon on Saturday.

Whittington shot a bird and went to look for it in the tall grass, while Cheney and the third hunter walked to another spot and found a second covey.

Whittington "came up from behind the vice president and the other hunter and didn't signal them or indicate to them or announce himself," Armstrong told the Associated Press in an interview.

"The vice president didn't see him," she continued. "The covey flushed and the vice president picked out a bird and was following it and shot. And by god, Harry was in the line of fire and got peppered pretty good."

The shooting was first reported by the Corpus Christi Caller-Times.

She said Whittington was bleeding but not very seriously injured, and Cheney was very apologetic.

"It broke the skin," she said. "It knocked him silly. But he was fine. He was talking. His eyes were open. It didn't get in his eyes or anything like that."

She said emergency personnel traveling with Cheney tended to Whittington, holding his face and cleaning up the blood.

"Fortunately, the vice president has got a lot of medical people around him and so they were right there and probably more cautious than we would have been," she said. "The vice president has got an ambulance on call, so the ambulance came."

Armstrong said Cheney is a longtime friend who comes to the ranch to hunt about once a year. She said Whittington is a regular, too, but she thought it was the first time the two men hunted together.

"This is something that happens from time to time. You now, I've been peppered pretty well myself," said Armstrong.

[irishgrl]

I wuz gonna post this and I decided against it, thot it was too Barnum/Bailey :rolleyes:

Im glad someone else did the dirty deed so we can all enjoy it in spite of my attack of decency :]

[DavidMn]

Ok is this a joke?

[irishgrl]

Ok is this a joke?

no...........I wouldnt recommend anyone going hunting with this guy, he's clearly dangerous........on second thought, maybe Monkey Boy could go with him.....they could roast weiners and marshmallows and sing 'round the campfire and trade bigfoot stories....and play a rousing game of Russian Roulette

[DavidMn]

no...........I wouldnt recommend anyone going hunting with this guy, he's clearly dangerous........on second thought, maybe Monkey Boy could go with him.....they could roast weiners and marshmallows and sing 'round the campfire and trade bigfoot stories....and play a rousing game of Russian RouletteWell, it was Texas right? I guess that doesnt surprise me

[DavidMn]

yep! one of the few states that still believes in vigilante justice (along with Alaska and Nebraska) anyone surprised?Wait'll the Onion gets ahold of this story!!:lol: :lol: I cant wait!!!

[irishgrl]

Wait'll the Onion gets ahold of this story!!:lol: :lol: I cant wait!!!

David: are you trying to duplicate your earlier record at postage my dear?
because if you are, Ryan will be soooooooooooo disappointed...:lol:

[ryan8472]

David: are you trying to duplicate your earlier record at postage my dear?
because if you are, Ryan will be soooooooooooo disappointed...:lol:
Hey, we're secret allies, he's on my side. :laugh:

[irishgrl]

Hey, we're secret allies, he's on my side. :laugh:
ya coulda fooled me!:laugh:

[ryan8472]

ya coulda fooled me!:laugh:
We are! I'm tellin ya. David is my little bitch. I say jump, he says how high. It's just that way. :lol:

I love you David. :xoxo:

:lol:

[irishgrl]

We are! I'm tellin ya. David is my little bitch. I say jump, he says how high. It's just that way. :lol:

I love you David. :xoxo:

:lol:


unless he gives you grief, in which case you whine like a puppy!

What a fakir! (look THAT up in your Funk and Wagnalls.....)

[ryan8472]

unless he gives you grief, in which case you whine like a puppy!

What a fakir! (look THAT up in your Funk and Wagnalls.....)
My English teacher used to say that to us. We always thought he was cursing because of how he said it. :lol:

Yes, we are an un-cultured bunch in Milford CT. :laugh:

[JazmenFlowers]

why couldn't Bush have been his hunting "buddy" on this outing? damn.

[golddustdragon]

What the hell did Cheney have, a machine gun?

[estranged4life]

So Elmer "Cheney" Fudd shot someone....

"Be vewwy, vewwy quiet....I hunting tewwowists....Uhuhuhuhuhuhuuh"

Actually, when I think of DICK Cheney, I think the following image is more appropriate:
<div align=center><img src="http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/cheney_queereye.jpe?.jpg"></div>

Brian "Cant wait til I can lampoon the Democrats equally when they screw up in office" j.

[SteveMacD]

Natural selection
It's only natural!

[Livia]

What the hell did Cheney have, a machine gun?

Probably a shotgun - they spray pellets, like BB's, rather than a single bullet each shot.

Brian, that pic is hilarious!

[golddustwoman77]

:lol: :lol: .....and I thought W. was the one most likely to shoot someone. How could I have been so wrong?! :lol: :lol:

[The Chain]

yep! one of the few states that still believes in vigilante justice (along with Alaska and Nebraska) anyone surprised?

I am, seeing that I once lived in Alaska, for a very long time, and its mostly just mountain and hippies :laugh: :thumbsup:

[Rickypt]

Good ole Dick Cheney, when he's not casting the tie-breaking vote to slash health care for the poor, he's taking a nice vacation to shoot birds.

[catinthedark]

The producers at The Daily Show called an emergency meeting this afternoon when the news broke. First, they thanked God for His unbelievable generosity. Then they called in every daily Show writer and started divvying up who would do what to fill their special hour-long show tomorrow night.

[SuzeQuze]

The producers at The Daily Show called an emergency meeting this afternoon when the news broke. First, they thanked God for His unbelievable generosity. Then they called in every daily Show writer and started divvying up who would do what to fill their special hour-long show tomorrow night.

:laugh: It is interesting how this was spun, the victim did not announce himself (hello, hunting, supposed to be quiet) and was in the line of fire and Cheney didn't see him. Well, Cheney must have an issue with his eyesight because if someone is in your line of fire you should see them! The dumbest defense ever. Then there's the full 24 hrs before the disclosure of the incident. Ugh.

[strandinthewind]

And exactly how many of you have actually been hunting before and know the first thing about it :shrug: I, on the other hand, have been hunting hundreds of times. If this guy did not announce himself, then he has only himself to blame and shotguns blast pellets in a fan once shot :shrug: Do I believe that is the story? Perhaps I do because it happens more times than you would think. Also, it makes sense because if Cheney wanted to kill the guy at that range, he would be dead, esp. with a shotgun and with Cheney's lifelong experience as a hunter. So, I think it was an accident though it may not be the accidenct reported given these liars.

I do think, however, the WH once again creates the drama by waiting 214 hours to acknowledge it after the owner of the range reported it. Why the wait? Where's my foil hat . . . .

[DavidMn]

Hey, we're secret allies, he's on my side. :laugh:
We're the gay alliance you know...:lol:

[DavidMn]

We are! I'm tellin ya. David is my little bitch. I say jump, he says how high. It's just that way. :lol:

I love you David. :xoxo:

:lol:I need a spanking...:lol:

[DavidMn]

:laugh: It is interesting how this was spun, the victim did not announce himself (hello, hunting, supposed to be quiet) and was in the line of fire and Cheney didn't see him. Well, Cheney must have an issue with his eyesight because if someone is in your line of fire you should see them! The dumbest defense ever. Then there's the full 24 hrs before the disclosure of the incident. Ugh.Yes I thought the 24 hour thing was very suspicious also.

[DavidMn]

And exactly how many of you have actually been hunting before and know the first thing about it :shrug: I, on the other hand, have been hunting hundreds of times. If this guy did not announce himself, then he has only himself to blame and shotguns blast pellets in a fan once shot :shrug: Do I believe that is the story? Perhaps I do because it happens more times than you would think. Also, it makes sense because if Cheney wanted to kill the guy at that range, he would be dead, esp. with a shotgun and with Cheney's lifelong experience as a hunter. So, I think it was an accident though it may not be the accidenct reported given these liars.

I do think, however, the WH once again creates the drama by waiting 214 hours to acknowledge it after the owner of the range reported it. Why the wait? Where's my foil hat . . . .Even I'd be surprised if it wasnt an accident. It's just that it makes for such fodder!! Everyone needs a laugh right?

[SuzeQuze]

Even I'd be surprised if it wasnt an accident. It's just that it makes for such fodder!! Everyone needs a laugh right?

I definitely believe this was an accident. I'm just disappointed in the blame the victim campaign surrounding it.

[Lisa1769]

I definitely believe this was an accident. I'm just disappointed in the blame the victim campaign surrounding it.


I agree. When hunting it is your responsibility to know where others are around you at all times. Maybe Cheney needs to brush up on his Hunters Safety Education Classes.

My husbands best friend shot him while bird hunting years ago. You can feel the shot under his skin, especially on his fingers. He was lucky, if his friend would have been using a differnt gauge shotgun, it would have killed him.

[gldstwmn]

Apparently his hunting license was not in order. I had a feeling that might be the case.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/13/cheney/index.html

"While the state Parks and Wildlife Department issued Cheney a warning for not possessing a required stamp on his hunting license, the sheriff's department said there was "no alcohol or misconduct involved in the incident."

[irishgrl]

I am, seeing that I once lived in Alaska, for a very long time, and its mostly just mountain and hippies :laugh: :thumbsup:

I have it on good authority, by a friend whose dad was a cop/sheriff there.:angel:

btw: mountains/hippies.......hmmmm maybe I should relocate........

[SuzeQuze]

I have it on good authority, by a friend whose dad was a cop/sheriff there.:angel:

btw: mountains/hippies.......hmmmm maybe I should relocate........

Plus isn't a small amount of pot legal up there and can't you grow your own as long as it is just for personal consumption?

[priestofnothing]

Some of these are really funny



"Late Show with David Letterman," CBS:

• "Good news, ladies and gentlemen, we have finally located weapons of mass destruction: It's Dick Cheney."

• "But here is the sad part — before the trip Donald Rumsfeld had denied the guy's request for body armor."

• "We can't get Bin Laden, but we nailed a 78-year-old attorney."

• "The guy who got gunned down, he is a Republican lawyer and a big Republican donor and fortunately the buck shot was deflected by wads of laundered cash. So he's fine. He took a little in the wallet."

__

"The Tonight Show with Jay Leno," NBC:

• "Although it is beautiful here in California, the weather back East has been atrocious. There was so much snow in Washington, D.C., Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fat guy thinking it was a polar bear.

• "That's the big story over the weekend. ... Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. In fact, when people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now at 92 percent."

• "I think Cheney is starting to lose it. After he shot the guy he screamed, 'Anyone else want to call domestic wire tapping illegal?'"

• "Dick Cheney is capitalizing on this for



Valentine's Day. It's the new Dick Cheney cologne. It's called Duck!"

___

"The Daily Show with



Jon Stewart," Comedy Central:

• "Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot a man during a quail hunt ... making 78-year-old Harry Whittington the first person shot by a sitting veep since Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, of course, (was) shot in a duel with Aaron Burr over issues of honor, integrity and political maneuvering. Whittington? Mistaken for a bird."

• "Now, this story certainly has its humorous aspects. ... But it also raises a serious issue, one which I feel very strongly about. ... moms, dads, if you're watching right now, I can't emphasize this enough: Do not let your kids go on hunting trips with the vice president. I don't care what kind of lucrative contracts they're trying to land, or energy regulations they're trying to get lifted — it's just not worth it."

___

"Late Late Show with



Craig Ferguson," CBS:

• "He is a lawyer and he got shot in the face. But he's a lawyer, he can use his other face. He'll be all right."

• "You can understand why this lawyer fellow let his guard down, because if you're out hunting with a politician, you think, 'If I'm going to get it, it's going to be in the back.' "

• "The big scandal apparently is that they didn't release the news for 18 hours. I don't think that's a scandal at all. I'm quite pleased about that. Finally there's a secret the vice president's office can keep."

"Apparently the reason they didn't release the information right away is they said we had to get the facts right. That's never stopped them in the past."

[gldstwmn]

The Late Show was a hoot last night. :nod: they had biff Henderson running around dressed like Elmer Fudd and shooting at the ceiling. Every time he did, a body (dummy) would drop. :laugh:

[SomeKindaMother]

Some of these are really funny



"Late Show with David Letterman," CBS:

• "Good news, ladies and gentlemen, we have finally located weapons of mass destruction: It's Dick Cheney."

• "But here is the sad part — before the trip Donald Rumsfeld had denied the guy's request for body armor."

• "We can't get Bin Laden, but we nailed a 78-year-old attorney."

• "The guy who got gunned down, he is a Republican lawyer and a big Republican donor and fortunately the buck shot was deflected by wads of laundered cash. So he's fine. He took a little in the wallet."

__

"The Tonight Show with Jay Leno," NBC:

• "Although it is beautiful here in California, the weather back East has been atrocious. There was so much snow in Washington, D.C., Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fat guy thinking it was a polar bear.

• "That's the big story over the weekend. ... Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. In fact, when people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now at 92 percent."

• "I think Cheney is starting to lose it. After he shot the guy he screamed, 'Anyone else want to call domestic wire tapping illegal?'"

• "Dick Cheney is capitalizing on this for



Valentine's Day. It's the new Dick Cheney cologne. It's called Duck!"

___

"The Daily Show with



Jon Stewart," Comedy Central:

• "Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot a man during a quail hunt ... making 78-year-old Harry Whittington the first person shot by a sitting veep since Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, of course, (was) shot in a duel with Aaron Burr over issues of honor, integrity and political maneuvering. Whittington? Mistaken for a bird."

• "Now, this story certainly has its humorous aspects. ... But it also raises a serious issue, one which I feel very strongly about. ... moms, dads, if you're watching right now, I can't emphasize this enough: Do not let your kids go on hunting trips with the vice president. I don't care what kind of lucrative contracts they're trying to land, or energy regulations they're trying to get lifted — it's just not worth it."

___

"Late Late Show with



Craig Ferguson," CBS:

• "He is a lawyer and he got shot in the face. But he's a lawyer, he can use his other face. He'll be all right."

• "You can understand why this lawyer fellow let his guard down, because if you're out hunting with a politician, you think, 'If I'm going to get it, it's going to be in the back.' "

• "The big scandal apparently is that they didn't release the news for 18 hours. I don't think that's a scandal at all. I'm quite pleased about that. Finally there's a secret the vice president's office can keep."

"Apparently the reason they didn't release the information right away is they said we had to get the facts right. That's never stopped them in the past."

:lol: :lol: :lol: Those are really funny. I had been wondering what the comedians would make of this.

Kelly :)

[David]

btw: mountains/hippies.......hmmmm maybe I should relocate........Whatever you do, DON'T BUILD YOURSELF A CABIN ON THE SHORES OF LITUYA BAY!!!!

[skcin]

The Daily Show was classic last night! If you missed it, try to catch the rerun. :nod:

[SteveMacD]

Well, if he hadn't gotten those FIVE deferments, he might have learned a little gun safety.

[heyjupiter678]

Breaking from CNN: Man shot and wounded by Vice President Cheney suffers "minor heart attack" after birdshot becomes lodged in his heart, hospital spokesman says.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/14/cheney/index.html

[skcin]

Breaking from CNN: Man shot and wounded by Vice President Cheney suffers "minor heart attack" after birdshot becomes lodged in his heart, hospital spokesman says.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/14/cheney/index.html


HOLY CRAP! :eek:

[gldstwmn]

If that poor man dies, Cheney will have to resign.

[SteveMacD]

Breaking from CNN: Man shot and wounded by Vice President Cheney suffers "minor heart attack" after birdshot becomes lodged in his heart, hospital spokesman says.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/14/cheney/index.html
That'll teach Cheney to ask "how could this get any worse".

This story is the gift that keeps on giving :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

If that poor man dies, Cheney will have to resign.

Why? It was an accident. I mean if he shot the guy on purpose, yes - but it was an accident :shrug: I think the people will understand that.

Again, I despise Cheney, but this could have happened to anyone who hunts.

[gldstwmn]

Why? It was an accident. I mean if he shot the guy on purpose, yes - but it was an accident :shrug: I think the people will understand that.

Again, I despise Cheney, but this could have happened to anyone who hunts.

Why? Because he was hunting without the proper credentials and he shot and killed somebody. That's why. :)

[SuzeQuze]

Imagine if Clinton shot someone. Hannity and O'Reilley tried to treat this as a footnote. Something unimportant. What if Bill had done it? I mean, Cheney turned and fired. Shouldn't you turn, look, and then fire?

[strandinthewind]

Why? Because he was hunting without the proper credentials and he shot and killed somebody. That's why. :)

The non proper credentials is a red herring. It happens all the time and most know that. But, time will tell :cool:

[SuzeQuze]

The non proper credentials is a red herring. It happens all the time and most know that. But, time will tell :cool:

I heard this morning that was a new regulation and Cheney promptly sent the $7 to the authorities to get that up to date. There was some special quail addendum to his license that he needed but didn't have.

[David]

I mean, Cheney turned and fired. Shouldn't you turn, look, and then fire?Stop, drop & roll ... if there's a fire.
...is all I know

[Rickypt]

Here's an interesting update:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/15/content_4180718.htm

WASHINGTON, Feb. 14 (Xinhuanet) -- Texas lawyer Harry Whittington, shot accidentally by U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney during a hunting trip last Saturday, suffered a minor heart attack Tuesday and was moved back to intensive care.

Whittington, 78, had some birdshot lodged in his heart and was moved to intensive care after suffering a minor heart attack, said reports from Corpus Christi, Texas, where he was receiving treatment.

"Some of the birdshot appears to have moved and lodged into part of his heart in what we would say is a minor heart attack," Peter Banko, administrator at Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial in Texas, said at a press conference outside the hospital.

There was an irregularity in the heartbeat caused by a pellet, and doctors performed a cardiac catheterization, Banko said.

Whittington, who had been placed in intensive care after the incident and was moved from intensive care on Monday, would have to stay in the hospital for several days to monitor his condition, he said.

Banko said doctors had no plans at the moment to remove the birdshot in Whittington's heart.

Meanwhile, the Kenedy County Sheriff's Office near the ranch where the accident took place has cleared Cheney of any wrongdoing in the shooting accident.

The sheriff's office said it interviewed both men after the Secret Service called to notify them shortly after the shooting, and investigation revealed that there was no alcohol or misconduct involved in the incident, which "was no more than a hunting accident." Enditem

[DavidMn]

Here's an interesting update:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/15/content_4180718.htm

WASHINGTON, Feb. 14 (Xinhuanet) -- Texas lawyer Harry Whittington, shot accidentally by U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney during a hunting trip last Saturday, suffered a minor heart attack Tuesday and was moved back to intensive care.

Whittington, 78, had some birdshot lodged in his heart and was moved to intensive care after suffering a minor heart attack, said reports from Corpus Christi, Texas, where he was receiving treatment.

"Some of the birdshot appears to have moved and lodged into part of his heart in what we would say is a minor heart attack," Peter Banko, administrator at Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial in Texas, said at a press conference outside the hospital.

There was an irregularity in the heartbeat caused by a pellet, and doctors performed a cardiac catheterization, Banko said.

Whittington, who had been placed in intensive care after the incident and was moved from intensive care on Monday, would have to stay in the hospital for several days to monitor his condition, he said.

Banko said doctors had no plans at the moment to remove the birdshot in Whittington's heart.

Meanwhile, the Kenedy County Sheriff's Office near the ranch where the accident took place has cleared Cheney of any wrongdoing in the shooting accident.

The sheriff's office said it interviewed both men after the Secret Service called to notify them shortly after the shooting, and investigation revealed that there was no alcohol or misconduct involved in the incident, which "was no more than a hunting accident." EnditemI saw this too. What will happen if this guy dies? It's pretty obvious that Cheney didnt wanna kill him, but the fallout would be big I think.

[gldstwmn]

The non proper credentials is a red herring. It happens all the time and most know that.

Just because it does happen all the time doesn't mean it should. If it really happens that frequently, then the government needs to rethink the safety isuues involved in hunting.
Shooting someone while hunting should be a criminal offense in the same vein as vehicular manslaughter.

[strandinthewind]

Just because it does happen all the time doesn't mean it should. If it really happens that frequently, then the government needs to rethink the safety isuues involved in hunting.
Shooting someone while hunting should be a criminal offense in the same vein as vehicular manslaughter.

The stamp has nothing to do with safety. You just pay the money and get it. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/annual/hunt/licenses/ Also, I am sure he has had many other hunting licenses, so any safety issues brought up by that, lwhich I again submit are nonexistent, would have been covered by those and this new stamp was just a money maker for the state.

Also, if you hit someone in a car and it is a complete accident, you do not go to jail :shrug: to wit:

http://dictionary.law.com/definition.asp?selected=2212&bold=%7C%7C%7C%7C

which says (emphasis supplied) -

vehicular manslaughter

n. the crime of causing the death of a human being due to illegal driving of an automobile, including gross negligence, drunk driving, reckless driving or speeding. Vehicular manslaughter can be charged as a misdemeanor (minor crime with a maximum punishment of a year in county jail or only a fine) or a felony (punishable by a term in state prison) depending on the circumstances. Gross negligence or driving a few miles over the speed limit might be charged as a misdemeanor, but drunk driving resulting in a fatality is most likely treated as a felony. Death of a passenger, including a loved one or friend, can be vehicular manslaughter if due to illegal driving.
See also: gross negligence manslaughter reckless driving

In Cheney's case, all evidence suggests it was an accident and the guy who got shot was the more reckless one for not announcing himself. Also, the guy will likely not press charges anyway and rightly so here because it was an accident.

In the end, I despise Cheney, but this is not that big of a deal when compared to the intentional killing of thousands of innocent Iraqi's for no good reason. Now THAT is a crime.

[irishgrl]

The stamp has nothing to do with safety. You just pay the money and get it. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/annual/hunt/licenses/ Also, I am sure he has had many other hunting licenses, so any safety issues brought up by that, lwhich I again submit are nonexistent, would have been covered by those and this new stamp was just a money maker for the state.

Also, if you hit someone in a car and it is a complete accident, you do not go to jail :shrug: to wit:

http://dictionary.law.com/definition.asp?selected=2212&bold=%7C%7C%7C%7C

which says (emphasis supplied) - (MY emphasis in RED)

vehicular manslaughter

n. the crime of causing the death of a human being due to illegal driving of an automobile, including gross negligence, drunk driving, reckless driving or speeding. Vehicular manslaughter can be charged as a misdemeanor (minor crime with a maximum punishment of a year in county jail or only a fine) or a felony (punishable by a term in state prison) depending on the circumstances. Gross negligence or driving a few miles over the speed limit might be charged as a misdemeanor, but drunk driving resulting in a fatality is most likely treated as a felony. Death of a passenger, including a loved one or friend, can be vehicular manslaughter if due to illegal driving.
See also: gross negligence manslaughter reckless driving

In Cheney's case, all evidence suggests it was an accident and the guy who got shot was the more reckless one for not announcing himself. Also, the guy will likely not press charges anyway and rightly so here because it was an accident.

In the end, I despise Cheney, but this is not that big of a deal when compared to the intentional killing of thousands of innocent Iraqi's for no good reason. Now THAT is a crime.


Jason: do you even READ your stuff before you post it? you CAN go to jail for vehicular manslaughter: by your own definition, a misdemeanor crime can get you up to a year, for a felony, a year or more. Ultimately the Judge decides the sentence, so for you to make a blanket statement like that is a bit surprising to say the least.

I think the reason people are so outraged is because Cheney has made NO statement on his own behalf. And he IS causing friction in the White House with his mulish stance (Im not running for President) His cavalier attitude about this incident is typical of his attitude about EVERY travesty this administration has committed....

[strandinthewind]

Jason: do you even READ your stuff before you post it? you CAN go to jail for vehicular manslaughter: by your own definition, a misdemeanor crime can get you up to a year, for a felony, a year or more. Ultimately the Judge decides the sentence, so for you to make a blanket statement like that is a bit surprising to say the least.

I think the reason people are so outraged is because Cheney has made NO statement on his own behalf. And he IS causing friction in the White House with his mulish stance (Im not running for President) His cavalier attitude about this incident is typical of his attitude about EVERY travesty this administration has committed....

That def. indicates the injury must be "due to illegal driving of an automobile, including gross negligence, drunk driving, reckless driving or speeding" which require intent or implied intent, which is not evident in Cheney's case. If so, where was it?

Again, I despise Cheney and think he is an a$$ - but the facts as we know them indicate this was an accident.

[irishgrl]

That def. indicates the injury must be "due to illegal driving of an automobile, including gross negligence, drunk driving, reckless driving or speeding" which require intent or implied intent, which is not evident in Cheney's case. If so, where was it?

Again, I despise Cheney and think he is an a$$ - but the facts as we know them indicate this was an accident.

I think a case could be made for negligence/reckless behavior, especially if you remember Cheney is considered an experienced hunter....

just so you know, I havent formed an opinion about this incident, so Im not arguing against your position per se, only the technicality of your definition, and I think parts of your definition could apply to this incident if properly presented.

[strandinthewind]

I think a case could be made for negligence/reckless behavior, especially if you remember Cheney is considered an experienced hunter....

just so you know, I havent formed an opinion about this incident, so Im not arguing against your position per se, only the technicality of your definition, and I think parts of your definition could apply to this incident if properly presented.

Well, we would need to know the law in Texas. But, from a practicle point, how could the case be made when the injured party will willingly admit fault for walking unannounced into a shooting area and will not press charges :shrug: I think people are letting their dislike of Cheney, which I share, cloud this issue. In other words, Cheney is a jerk, so he is guilty of more than an accident. In the end, this was an accident mostly caused by the victim and people just ordinarily do not go to jail for that.

On edit - the facts indicate Cheney did not act recklessly. He was hunting in a normal manner :shrug: Maybe Texas law implies the intent in such cases a la a drunk driver usually is presumed to have the intent to hurt by the sheer fact that they are driving drunk and even though the accident that occured had nothing to do with them being drunk, but I would be surprised by that.

[strandinthewind]

Cheney to break silence on shooting accident
First public comments since Saturday's incident

CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas (Reuters) -- Vice President Dick Cheney, publicly silent since accidentally shooting a Texas lawyer while hunting last week, will offer his first words on the incident Wednesday, the White House said.

Cheney will be interviewed by Fox News at 2 p.m. ET, White House press secretary Scott McClellan told reporters.

The announcement occurred after Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, and California Rep. Nancy Pelosi, the top-ranking Democrat in the House, emerged from a White House breakfast meeting with President Bush and Cheney to say the vice president needed to come forward.

"I guess I'm kind of old-fashioned," Reid said. "He hasn't had a press conference in three and a half years."

Said Pelosi: "Open government demands that the vice president come clean with what happened ... There's probably a very simple answer to it, but we have to break this habit of the administration, of closed government without the openness that is healthy to a democracy."

They said they did not tell Cheney to his face that he should come forward and that the vice president said little during the breakfast.

Cheney sprayed Harry Whittington, 78, with birdshot while hunting quail in Texas Saturday, but has stayed silent on it except for brief statements from his office.

Whittington suffered a minor heart attack Tuesday when some of the birdshot migrated to his heart. He was rushed into intensive care at Christus Spohn Hospital, where he has been treated since the shooting, and remained there Wednesday in stable condition, hospital spokeswoman Yvonne Wheeler said. (Watch what alerted doctors to the birdshot in Whittington's heart -- 2:32)

In a break from usual White House protocol, the shooting was not revealed until Sunday when ranch owner Katharine Armstrong reported it to the Corpus Christi Caller-Times.

The failure to disclose the accident touched off a political furor as the press complained that the White House had tried to hide the incident and Democrats charged it showed the secretiveness of the Bush administration.

A number of Bush's fellow Republicans have been urging Cheney to come forward as well. The vice president's press office had no comment on whether he would make a statement, but top White House aides were believed to be discussing whether he should do so.

"I think Cheney operates in his own world and really doesn't care what the press and the public think about him because he's serving the president. But in this case, this strategy is beginning to damage the president," said a prominent Republican in Washington, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Cheney's office issued a statement Tuesday saying the vice president had spoken with Whittington by telephone, wished him well and asked if he needed anything.

Cheney is scheduled to speak Friday in his home state of Wyoming to the state legislature's 2006 budget session in Cheyenne.

Whittington, a Republican stalwart and lawyer in Texas, was struck by up to 200 pellets when Cheney, hunting on a south Texas ranch, reportedly whirled around to fire at a covey of quail and hit Whittington instead.

Whittington's health could determine whether the shooting has any real repercussions.

His doctors have been optimistic about his recovery, but said he must stay in hospital another week to make sure more birdshot does not migrate to a dangerous place.

They said it was unlikely they would try to remove the pellets because surgery, particularly if it involved the heart, could be more dangerous than leaving the pellets in.

So far, local authorities have said the shooting was simply an accident with no misconduct involved.

But if Whittington were to die, local district attorney Carlos Valdez said there could be a more-thorough investigation, including possibly a grand jury probe that might end up issuing criminal charges such as negligence or reckless behavior.


Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/15/cheney.reut/index.html (emphasis supplied)

Hmmmmmmm - the plot thickens.

[strandinthewind]

Has this fact been relesed before:

reportedly whirled around to fire at a covey of quail and hit Whittington instead.

I was under the impression the guy was in the periphery and the birdshot got him there. This "new" fact thickens the soup.

[irishgrl]

Well, we would need to know the law in Texas. But, from a practicle point, how could the case be made when the injured party will willingly admit fault for walking unannounced into a shooting area and will not press charges :shrug: I think people are letting their dislike of Cheney, which I share, cloud this issue. In other words, Cheney is a jerk, so he is guilty of more than an accident. In the end, this was an accident mostly caused by the victim and people just ordinarily do not go to jail for that.

On edit - the facts indicate Cheney did not act recklessly. He was hunting in a normal manner :shrug: Maybe Texas law implies the intent in such cases a la a drunk driver usually is presumed to have the intent to hurt by the sheer fact that they are driving drunk and even though the accident that occured had nothing to do with them being drunk, but I would be surprised by that.

Well, if the injured party admits to his part in the accident, that would lessen the penalty I would think but it doesnt absolve Cheney of his responsibility to act with care. I mean after all, we ARE talking about guns here.

I dont like Cheney, Ive never denied that, but I truly havent formed an opinion here, only pointing out possible arguments..

[irishgrl]

Has this fact been relesed before:

reportedly whirled around to fire at a covey of quail and hit Whittington instead.

I was under the impression the guy was in the periphery and the birdshot got him there. This "new" fact thickens the soup.

yes, that was already known.
The weird thing is, it sounds like Cheney had a knee jerk reaction and didnt take time to aim??? Out of curiosity, what do you mean it "thickens the soup?"

[irishgrl]

But if Whittington were to die, local district attorney Carlos Valdez said there could be a more-thorough investigation, including possibly a grand jury probe that might end up issuing criminal charges such as negligence or reckless behavior.

Isnt that what I said? post #55 (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=497673&postcount=55) I think a case could be made. Maybe you didnt realize this because you didnt know all the facts.

[strandinthewind]

yes, that was already known.
The weird thing is, it sounds like Cheney had a knee jerk reaction and didnt take time to aim??? Out of curiosity, what do you mean it "thickens the soup?"

Well, the earlier reports were that Cheney was following a covey with the gun, which usually involves a steady turn to allow for the tracking. This new report used the word "whirled," which to me suggests Cheney jumped up, hurriedly turned around and discharged his gun without first looking behind him. The latter is clearly negligent and probably reckless behaviour as opposed to the former. I hope that made sense.

[strandinthewind]

Isnt that what I said? post #55 (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=497673&postcount=55) I think a case could be made. Maybe you didnt realize this because you didnt know all the facts.

Well, that is puffing and it could also be the law in Texas that a grand jury is required in a death like this. Also, a grand jury can be convened for anything and a pissed of DA can indict a baked potatoe :laugh:

But, there will be no case made here because the primary witness and the victim will say it was his fault and every witness to the accident will testify that Cheney did nothing wrong and did not act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner - again, accidently shooting someone does not automatically equate to recklessness or gross negligence (whether it should is another argument for another day). So, unless those "facts" change, there will be no indictment. I mean how is the prosecution going to make its case with no witnesses and a victim who refuses to press charges?

[irishgrl]

Well, the earlier reports were that Cheney was following a covey with the gun, which usually involves a steady turn to allow for the tracking. This new report used the word "whirled," which to me suggests Cheney jumped up, hurriedly turned around and discharged his gun without first looking behind him. The latter is clearly negligent and probably reckless behaviour as opposed to the former. I hope that made sense.
well, all we can go by is the news stories we get. I happened to see this on CBS nightly news. I think there's also a big deal made of the fact that the incident happened a day before the White House even said anything! The news was first broken by a newspaper/station in Texas based on a report by the owner of the Ranch where Cheney was hunting. She even told him she was reporting it and he didnt seem to object which is interesting seeing as how he doesnt want to talk about it. I think the man knows he did a stupid thing and doesnt have the brass to admit it. and he's letting others talk for him. talk about head in sand!:rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

well, all we can go by is the news stories we get. I happened to see this on CBS nightly news. I think there's also a big deal made of the fact that the incident happened a day before the White House even said anything! The news was first broken by a newspaper/station in Texas based on a report by the owner of the Ranch where Cheney was hunting. She even told him she was reporting it and he didnt seem to object which is interesting seeing as how he doesnt want to talk about it. I think the man knows he did a stupid thing and doesnt have the brass to admit it. and he's letting others talk for him. talk about head in sand!:rolleyes:

I agree the waiting period was assinine and that is where the meat of this is. I do think though that Rove is very smart and there was a reason for that 24 hours. We need to know that reason. My guess is money changed hands and documents were signed to ensure cooperation.

[irishgrl]

Well, that is puffing and it could also be the law in Texas that a grand jury is required in a death like this. Also, a grand jury can be convened for anything and a pissed of DA can indite a baked potatoe :laugh:

But, there will be no case made here because the primary witness and the victim will say it was his fault and every witness to the accident will testify that Cheney did nothing wrong and did not act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner - again, accidently shooting someone does not automatically equate to recklessness or gross negligence (whether it should is another argument for another day). So, unless those "facts" change, there will be no inditment. I mean how is the prosecution going to make its case with no witnesses and a victim who refuses to press charges?

IM not saying there should be an indictment, or that there will be one. If Whittington dies because of this, I think it is a clear case of negligence. whether gross or not, is for a judge/jury to decide.

besides, you can factor in contributory negligence into the charge or the sentence. that doesnt negate Cheney's actions. Sure it was an accident.
there are such charges as involuntary manslaughter ya know!

[irishgrl]

I agree the waiting period was assinine and that is where the meat of this is. I do think though that Rove is very smart and there was a reason for that 24 hours. We need to know that reason. My guess is money changed hands and documents were signed to ensure cooperation.
Now THAT is a scary prospect! can you say COVERUP boys and girls? yet ANOTHER coverup. lessee: Downing Street memos, OOPS! Katrina negligence OOPS! Cheney shoots fellow hunter, OOPS! How many OOPS's is it gonna take before people wake up?

[strandinthewind]

IM not saying there should be an indictment, or that there will be one. If Whittington dies because of this, I think it is a clear case of negligence. whether gross or not, is for a judge/jury to decide.

besides, you can factor in contributory negligence into the charge or the sentence. that doesnt negate Cheney's actions. Sure it was an accident.
there are such charges as involuntary manslaughter ya know!

Who is going to testify as to the negligence and the victim almost assuredly will not press charges? Thus, all you have left is the fact that Cheney accidently shot someone, which is not enough to convict him (if it were, he would be under arrest now) - esp. when every single witness will likely testify Cheney did nothing wrong and the victim will likely testify it was his fault. Thus, the only conclusion in that scenario is no case will be made.

Also:

MANSLAUGHTER, INVOLUNTARY - In order for a person to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter the government must prove that someone was killed as a result of an act by the person;

Second, in the circumstances existing at the time, the person's act either was by its nature dangerous to human life or was done with reckless disregard for human life; and

Third, the person either knew that such conduct was a threat to the lives of others or knew of circumstances that would reasonably cause the person to foresee that such conduct might be a threat to the lives of others.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m011.htm

Two and three will be hard to prove in this case because of the lack of witnesses.

[irishgrl]

Who is going to testify as to the negligence and the victim almost assuredly will not press charges? Thus, all you have left is the fact that Cheney accidently shot someone, which is not enough to convict him (if it were, he would be under arrest now) - esp. when every single witness will likely testify Cheney did nothing wrong and the victim will likely testify it was his fault. Thus, the only conclusion in that scenario is no case will be made.
I refer you back to your OWN post wherein the local TX law enforcement say that more serious charges may ensue if Whittington dies. I think a case could be made that if Whittington dies, Cheney is the proximate cause. A dead man is the best witness you can have.

Remember, Cheney is no novice. he's considered an experienced, competent hunter. This was a bonehead move, and not something you'd expect from someone of his skills. That would ALSO be a factor IMO.

PS: Ive got to take my son to the dentist, he's having 5-8 baby teeth worked on (BABY TEETH! WHAT A RACKET!) anyway, back later.:wavey:

[SomeKindaMother]

I refer you back to your OWN post wherein the local TX law enforcement say that more serious charges may ensue if Whittington dies. I think a case could be made that if Whittington dies, Cheney is the proximate cause. A dead man is the best witness you can have.

Remember, Cheney is no novice. he's considered an experienced, competent hunter. This was a bonehead move, and not something you'd expect from someone of his skills. That would ALSO be a factor IMO.

PS: Ive got to take my son to the dentist, he's having 5-8 baby teeth worked on (BABY TEETH! WHAT A RACKET!) anyway, back later.:wavey:

Well, Cheney is supposed to speak later, so they're saying.

And if you have a deep cavity in a baby tooth, it can indeed affect the permanant tooth below...or a tooth next to it. Good for you for taking care of his baby teeth!! :blob1:

Kelly :)

[strandinthewind]

I refer you back to your OWN post wherein the local TX law enforcement say that more serious charges may ensue if Whittington dies . . . .

Actually, that was far more carefully worded that what you assert. It specifically said:

But if Whittington were to die, local district attorney Carlos Valdez said there could be a more-thorough investigation, including possibly a grand jury probe that might end up issuing criminal charges such as negligence or reckless behavior.

The use of "could be" "possibly" and "might" is puffing.

Have fun at the dentist!

[SuzeQuze]

Has this fact been relesed before:

reportedly whirled around to fire at a covey of quail and hit Whittington instead.

I was under the impression the guy was in the periphery and the birdshot got him there. This "new" fact thickens the soup.

Exactly, Cheney acted recklessly by not really looking before shooting. I know it was an accident but he really should own up to his part in it instead of merely blaming the victim, who also made a mistake in not announcing himself. Also, these were tame birds so there was no need to act impulsively, plenty of time to aim!!! Apparently there is a new hunter safety law that has been renamed "Cheney's Law" that has been proposed.

[strandinthewind]

Exactly, Cheney acted recklessly by not really looking before shooting. I know it was an accident but he really should own up to his part in it instead of merely blaming the victim, who also made a mistake in not announcing himself. Also, these were tame birds so there was no need to act impulsively, plenty of time to aim!!! Apparently there is a new hunter safety law that has been renamed "Cheney's Law" that has been proposed.

Well, we have two different accounts of this. If he was steadily tracking and then shot, that is not reckless behavior because he was looking at where he was shooting and this poor guy was in the periphery of the blast. If he spun or whirled around and shot all in one second, then that is reckless behavior because he did not look first. I also think they are not really blaming this guy, but this guy was just in the way and at fault and they are factually stating that.

[SuzeQuze]

Well, we have two different accounts of this. If he was steadily tracking and then shot, that is not reckless behavior because he was looking at where he was shooting and this poor guy was in the periphery of the blast. If he spun or whirled around and shot all in one second, then that is reckless behavior because he did not look first. I also think they are not really blaming this guy, but this guy was just in the way and at fault and they are factually stating that.

I never heard the first account. I only heard the quick turn and shoot story. They said the guy "did not announce himself" but they did not say "Cheney did not look first" or "Cheney turned and quickly fired", an omission that insinuates it was the victims fault.

[strandinthewind]

I never heard the first account. I only heard the quick turn and shoot story. They said the guy "did not announce himself" but they did not say "Cheney did not look first" or "Cheney turned and quickly fired", an omission that insinuates it was the victims fault.

I got it from the first post in this thread:

Whittington shot a bird and went to look for it in the tall grass, while Cheney and the third hunter walked to another spot and found a second covey.

Whittington "came up from behind the vice president and the other hunter and didn't signal them or indicate to them or announce himself," Armstrong told the Associated Press in an interview.

"The vice president didn't see him," she continued. "The covey flushed and the vice president picked out a bird and was following it and shot. And by god, Harry was in the line of fire and got peppered pretty good."
________________________________________________________

Also, it is mostly the victim's fault, though Cheney has some as well. I mean the guy walked into an area where he knew people were shooting :shrug: I guess I think people are reading too much into this. Then again, maybe I am not :cool:

[skcin]

This in the most recent article on CNN.com:

Whittington, a Republican stalwart and lawyer in Texas, was struck by up to 200 pellets when Cheney, hunting on a south Texas ranch, reportedly whirled around to fire at a covey of quail and hit Whittington instead.

Whittington's health could determine whether the shooting has any real repercussions.

His doctors have been optimistic about his recovery, but said he must stay in hospital another week to make sure more birdshot does not migrate to a dangerous place.

They said it was unlikely they would try to remove the pellets because surgery, particularly if it involved the heart, could be more dangerous than leaving the pellets in.

So far, local authorities have said the shooting was simply an accident with no misconduct involved.

But if Whittington were to die, local district attorney Carlos Valdez said there could be a more-thorough investigation, including possibly a grand jury probe that might end up issuing criminal charges such as negligence or reckless behavior.



He's doing an interview with Fox News as we speak. Anyone near a TV?

[strandinthewind]

^^^^^

LMAO - is it a Fox exclusive :eek: that would be par for the course :rolleyes:

[skcin]

^^^^^

LMAO - is it a Fox exclusive :eek: that would be par for the course :rolleyes:


I know, right? :laugh: Well, I thought I heard it was at 2pm, but the website is saying 6pm. :confused: Maybe they're taping it to air at 6pm tonight?

[strandinthewind]

He really deid give an exclusive to Fox - that is an OUTRAGE - maybe Brit Hume will wipe his a$$ after he takes a shiitte because he sure kissed it enough :rolleyes:

Cheney Breaking Silence on Hunting Accident

Wednesday, February 15, 2006



NEW TORK — Vice President Dick Cheney has granted his first interview more than 72 hours after a hunting incident in which he accidentally shot a man in the face.

FOX News Channel's Brit Hume was sitting down with the vice president on Wednesday afternoon. The interview will be broadcast on "Special Report With Brit Hume" at 6 p.m. EST.

Austin attorney Harry Whittington, the man Cheney shot on Saturday, was in stable condition on Wednesday, hospital officials said. But the 78-year-old was moved back into the intensive care unit because of concerns for his privacy.

"He's doing extremely well," said Peter Banko, administrator of Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial in Corpus Christi, Texas.

Speaking to reporters alongside David Blanchard, one of Whittington's doctors, Banko said that Whittington was tired but able to sit up and eat food.

Whittington suffered a minor heart attack Tuesday morning due to a birdshot pellet that had migrated to his heart. Banko would not comment on how many BBs remained in Whittington's body, but said of the ammunition lodged in Whittington's heart, "We're 100 percent satisfied that where the BB is it will remain."

Blanchard said Whittington was recovering well from the heart attack but would be closely monitored over the next six days and possibly longer. Whittington is "hemodynamically stable," meaning his blood circulation is normal, which is "the best situation you could possibly have."

While the story has launched innumerable jokes from comic strips and late-night comedy shows, the narrative took a decidedly more somber tone Tuesday when Whittington's condition turned for the worse.

Following news of the heart attack, pressure intensified for Cheney to publicly discuss the shooting. Cheney and his aides have been silent since the incident occurred Saturday, and the White House has come under fire for waiting nearly 24 hours to acknowledge the incident had even occurred.

"I believe the vice president should hold a press conference to talk about the incident in Texas and the other things," Harry Reid, D-Nev., said after meeting with Cheney, President Bush and other congressional leaders Wednesday morning. The Senate minority leader stressed that Cheney had not given a press conference since 2002.

"I guess I'm kind of old-fashioned. I think he hasn't had a press conference in three-and-a-half years ... it's time to have one. It's not just the hunting incident, it's — I think you folks have a lot of questions you'd like to ask him," Reid said.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi accused the Bush administration of running a closed government that disrespects the public.

"Open government would demand that the vice president come clean on what happened there. Our hearts and our prayers, every night, go out to the gentleman who was hurt in this incident ... But we have to break this habit of the administration of closed government without the openness that is healthy for a democracy," Pelosi, D-Calif., said.

Asked whether she had brought up her views on the hunting incident with the vice president, Pelosi said she brought up Hurricane Katrina instead "because it is a very big issue for our country, and it's one that needs immediate attention and has an impact on so many lives in the country."

Republicans, too, have been quietly complaining about the vice president's unwillingness to explain publicly what occurred during the weekend hunting trip.

Vin Weber, a former Minnesota Republican representative, told The Washington Post: "I cannot believe he does not look back and say this should have been handled differently."

Whittington was hit with more than 200 birdshot pellets by Cheney, an experienced hunter, at Armstrong Ranch, a 50,000-acre property in south Texas that is known as one of the best quail-hunting sites in the state. Not aware that his hunting partner had returned from retrieving a bird he had shot, Cheney turned right to shoot a covey of quail and sprayed his hunting partner with shotgun pellets instead.

Carlos Valdez, district attorney of the county in which the shooting occurred, told the Corpus Christi Caller-Times on Wednesday that he did not foresee a criminal investigation. An incident report from the Kenedy County Sheriff's Office is pending.

In only its second public acknowledgment of the incident, the vice president's office issued a statement on Tuesday saying Cheney had called Whittington around 1:30 p.m. EST to check on him.

"The vice president wished Mr. Whittington well and asked if there was anything he needed. The vice president said that he stood ready to assist. Mr. Whittington's spirits were good, but obviously his situation deserves the careful monitoring that his doctors are providing. The vice president said that his thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Whittington and his family," the statement read.

The vice president's only other statement since Saturday concerned his lack of a Texas Parks and Wildlife Department stamp for hunting game birds, which was publicized following the shooting. The statement said Cheney had mailed a $7 check to the department for a stamp, but did not mention Whittington or the shooting.

FOX News' Jane Roh contributed to this report.

[SteveMacD]

At least when Clinton sprayed somebody in the face, nobody had to go to the hospital!

[strandinthewind]

At least when Clinton sprayed somebody in the face, nobody had to go to the hospital!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Two points to you for that~~~~~

[SuzeQuze]

I got it from the first post in this thread:

Whittington shot a bird and went to look for it in the tall grass, while Cheney and the third hunter walked to another spot and found a second covey.

Whittington "came up from behind the vice president and the other hunter and didn't signal them or indicate to them or announce himself," Armstrong told the Associated Press in an interview.

"The vice president didn't see him," she continued. "The covey flushed and the vice president picked out a bird and was following it and shot. And by god, Harry was in the line of fire and got peppered pretty good."
________________________________________________________

Also, it is mostly the victim's fault, though Cheney has some as well. I mean the guy walked into an area where he knew people were shooting :shrug: I guess I think people are reading too much into this. Then again, maybe I am not :cool:

Since Cheney pulled the trigger he should bear most of the blame. I didn't interpret the above the same way you did since I had already heard the "turned and shot" story and so that was in my head. At any rate, Cheney had better pray this man lives, which it seems that he will, because if he doesn't he will be in really deep trouble.

[skcin]

CHENEY TAKES FULL RESPONSIBILITY:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11361657/

Sorry, the article's very long so I didn't want to cut & paste.

[strandinthewind]

Interesting, but typical. This is classic Rove. Initially note the fault of the victim (which is factual) and then days later have Cheney accept full responsibility, when in the public's mind the seed of the other guy's fault has already matured, which is I think what Suze was getting at.

In any event, this was a horrible accident and I wish the guy luck in his recovery. I also wish Cheney, though I hate him, peace with this horrible accident.

[irishgrl]

Actually, that was far more carefully worded that what you assert. It specifically said:

But if Whittington were to die, local district attorney Carlos Valdez said there could be a more-thorough investigation, including possibly a grand jury probe that might end up issuing criminal charges such as negligence or reckless behavior.

The use of "could be" "possibly" and "might" is puffing.

Have fun at the dentist!

you'll note I also used careful wording ie: more serious charges MAY ensue

Strandie, you need to READ my stuff not just argue with it! :laugh: :eek:

[irishgrl]

Interesting, but typical. This is classic Rove. Initially note the fault of the victim (which is factual) and then days later have Cheney accept full responsibility, when in the public's mind the seed of the other guy's fault has already matured, which is I think what Suze was getting at.

In any event, this was a horrible accident and I wish the guy luck in his recovery. I also wish Cheney, though I hate him, peace with this horrible accident.

I dont see it as "fault of the victim" I see it as contributory negligence....which in NO WAY absolves Cheney. and, according to Suze, you misconstrued her viewpoint:

Since Cheney pulled the trigger he should bear most of the blame. I didn't interpret the above the same way you did since I had already heard the "turned and shot" story and so that was in my head. At any rate, Cheney had better pray this man lives, which it seems that he will, because if he doesn't he will be in really deep trouble.

and IMO, Cheney SHOULD take full responsibility. He is the experienced hunter here....does anyone know if Whittington is an experienced hunter? has it been mentioned anywhere? I havent seen it....

PS: Brendan flew thru the visit with flying colors! I took him to a Pediatric Dentist. I tell ya Kelly (with all yer scary talk of infecting permanent teeth and their neighbors) I just think of all those generations of kids that grew up with no dental attention to their baby teeth and I STILL THINK ITS A RACKET!!! What a $$$$ maker! I drank KoolAid and ate candy and all that and never saw a dentist til I had big teeth...(I think.....I cant remember!) anyway, I know there wasnt any holdover damage from one set to the other:shrug:

[strandinthewind]

you'll note I also used careful wording ie:

Strandie, you need to READ my stuff not just argue with it! :laugh: :eek:

it was the paraphrase I objected to - that is all. Also, you used the phrase "more serious charges," which implies less serious charges are present now. To my knowledge, there are no charges at all.

[strandinthewind]

I dont see it as "fault of the victim" I see it as contributory negligence....which in NO WAY absolves Cheney. and, according to Suze, you misconstrued her viewpoint:



and IMO, Cheney SHOULD take full responsibility. He is the experienced hunter here....does anyone know if Whittington is an experienced hunter? has it been mentioned anywhere? I havent seen it....

Of course Cheney was at fault; I never said anything to the contrary. All I am saying is this poor guy put himself at risk. In the end, it was a horrible accident.

[irishgrl]

it was the paraphrase I objected to - that is all. Also, you used the phrase "more serious charges," which implies less serious charges are present now. To my knowledge, there are no charges at all.
you are correct! I never said otherwise in spite of your spin :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

you are correct! I never said otherwise in spite of your spin :shrug:

How am I spinning that? I was telling you how it came across to me, which was different than the original quote.

[irishgrl]

Of course Cheney was at fault; I never said anything to the contrary. All I am saying is this poor guy put himself at risk. In the end, it was a horrible accident.


yes it was an accident. no one disputes that (not even me LOL!) and it looked as tho you said it was actually the victims fault and not Cheneys. If you meant otherwise, its all good.:wavey:

[strandinthewind]

yes it was an accident. no one disputes that (not even me LOL!) and it looked as tho you said it was actually the victims fault and not Cheneys. If you meant otherwise, its all good.:wavey:

Well, it was both of their faults IMO :shrug: I tend to place more of it on the victim because he knowingly walked into the line of fire as opposed to Cheney who had somewhat of a right to assume no other hunter would be standing there. But and again, they are both at fault and Cheney most def. pulled the trigger. I mean if I walk onto a highway and a car hits me, who do I have to thank?

[irishgrl]

How am I spinning that? I was telling you how it came across to me, which was different than the original quote.

I cant help how it came across to you but I think Ive made it clear that I have no opinion as to Cheney's guilt (or lack thereof)....I've speculated that a case COULD be made as to negligence based on a previous statement that YOU made. You'll have to go back and re-read. I know that I heard a different story to start with than you seem to have heard, which has apparently colored the incident for you against the victim and FOR Cheney. (as witnessed by your comments that the victim's injury was his own fault)...I am glad that Cheney is accepting responsibility, but it seems a bit late to me...why wait? To get the story straight? to figure out your next move? to pay off witnesses? This whole thing SMELLS

[strandinthewind]

So you think the victim is blameless, without fault, etc.? I just do not get that. Again, he walked into the line of fire. Also, his fault does not outweigh Cheney's actions, though from a legal point of view, it would weigh against convicting Cheney or establishing any kind of real or implied intent on Cheney.

[irishgrl]

Well, it was both of their faults IMO :shrug: I tend to place more of it on the victim because he knowingly walked into the line of fire as opposed to Cheney who had somewhat of a right to assume no other hunter would be standing there. But and again, they are both at fault and Cheney most def. pulled the trigger. I mean if I walk onto a highway and a car hits me, who do I have to thank?

Thats where we differ I guess. While I can see they both erred, I place more blame on the man who knows what he is doing, the experienced hunter ie: CHENEY. And I think a jury would agree. Im surprised at you Jason, you know the standards by which torts are decided dont you? When two people share blame, isnt it reasonable to assign the higher accountability to the person who is more skilled/experienced/etc? You know it is.

[irishgrl]

So you think the victim is blameless, without fault, etc.? I just do not get that. Again, he walked into the line of fire. Also, his fault does not outweigh Cheney's actions, though from a legal point of view, it would weigh against convicting Cheney or establishing any kind of real or implied intent on Cheney.


Um ....how many times to I have to say contributory negligence? I must've said it 3 times in this thread already if not more.....go back and count if you dont believe me...at no time did I EVER say Whittington wasnt partially to blame.

You know, you do this a LOT. you ignore what I ACTUALLY say and make up something entirely NEW.

[strandinthewind]

Thats where we differ I guess. While I can see they both erred, I place more blame on the man who knows what he is doing, the experienced hunter ie: CHENEY. And I think a jury would agree. Im surprised at you Jason, you know the standards by which torts are decided dont you? When two people share blame, isnt it reasonable to assign the higher accountability to the person who is more skilled/experienced/etc? You know it is.

This other guy certainly had hunted before. I think i read taht somewhere. As for a jury, after:

1. the victim himself refused to press charges and told them he was at fault as well

2. every other eyewitness testified it was an accident

and

3. the prosecution has not one witness to call other than maybe some BS expert.

if the judge even let's it go to a jury (i.e. the prosecution has failed to make its prima facia case) - the jury will aquit.

[strandinthewind]

Um ....how many times to I have to say contributory negligence? I must've said it 3 times in this thread already if not more.....go back and count if you dont believe me...at no time did I EVER say Whittington wasnt partially to blame.

You know, you do this a LOT. you ignore what I ACTUALLY say and make up something entirely NEW.

I was just checking because you were implying it in the last post and in contrast to what you said before.

Also, I am unsure the concept of contributory negligence or comparative fault exists in criminal law like it does in civil law. I do know, however, that the fault of the victim can be asserted as a defense in almost all crimes but rape and even then it can get in in some other way.

[irishgrl]

This other guy certainly had hunted before. I think i read taht somewhere. As for a jury, after:

1. the victim himself refused to press charges and told them he was at fault as well

2. every other eyewitness testified it was an accident

and

3. the prosecution has not one witness to call other than maybe some BS expert.

if the judge even let's it go to a jury (i.e. the prosecution has failed to make its prima facia case) - the jury will aquit.

all of which would have gone OUT THE WINDOW if the victim would have died. People kill other people accidentally ALL THE TIME!
What the HELL are you doing? Are you defending Cheney because of your personal bias re: hunting? Do you feel somehow attacked because this was an accident that occurred while doing something you personally enjoy?

Get over it Jason, its not about you, or your love of hunting. its about a tragic accident where two people share blame. But I tell you: IF (and apparently now a moot point) the victim would have died, we'd be hearing a LOT more about Cheney's negligence, the victims contributory negligence notwithstanding.

[irishgrl]

I was just checking because you were implying it in the last post and in contrast to what you said before.

Also, I am unsure the concept of contributory negligence or comparative fault exists in criminal law like it does in civil law. I do know, however, that the fault of the victim can be asserted as a defense in almost all crimes but rape and even then it can get in in some other way.

well then you answered your own question didnt you? actor B's contributory negligence is always looked at in a case where he suffered harm from actor A.
Torts use the same legal principals that Criminal Law does....just a different standard of proof! You need to go back to your first year law classes!

[skcin]

OK, it's obvious some of us are hearing a few different details about all of this. IMO, if Cheney was standing there & the guy walked in front of him and got shot because he walked into the line of fire, yes the victim was partially at fault along with Cheney. If he was behind Cheney & Cheney turned around quickly & fired without really looking & aiming first, that's negligent on Cheney's part, accident or not.

Should he have announced "hey, guys, I'm back here" - probably. But shouldn't you look first before you pull the trigger? It's not like they were deer hunting & he mistook him for a large animal from far away. :shrug:

[SuzeQuze]

OK, it's obvious some of us are hearing a few different details about all of this. IMO, if Cheney was standing there & the guy walked in front of him and got shot because he walked into the line of fire, yes the victim was partially at fault along with Cheney. If he was behind Cheney & Cheney turned around quickly & fired without really looking & aiming first, that's negligent on Cheney's part, accident or not.

Should he have announced "hey, guys, I'm back here" - probably. But shouldn't you look first before you pull the trigger? It's not like they were deer hunting & he mistook him for a large animal from far away. :shrug:

Exactly. Very succinctly put. And Mary and Jason, I believe you two are mostly in agreement and are arguing minutia, JMO. :o

[Rickypt]

The Daily Show was classic last night! If you missed it, try to catch the rerun. :nod:

I think it was the best ever. I'll never delete it from my DVR. I especially enjoyed how the show pointed out the lameness of this "hunting"; i.e., driving up in your care shooting at pen-raised birds.

[skcin]

I think it was the best ever. I'll never delete it from my DVR. I especially enjoyed how the show pointed out the lameness of this "hunting"; i.e., driving up in your care shooting at pen-raised birds.


I KNOW! That, and the re-enactment - they showed a guy playing the old Nintendo "Duck Hunt" and another guy stood up in front of the TV. :laugh: I swear, I almost peed myself.


Did you see it last night? Where Stewart kept stopping for a spot of tea? And kept rubbing his nipples in excitement? F*cking hilarious. :nod:

[irishgrl]

Exactly. Very succinctly put. And Mary and Jason, I believe you two are mostly in agreement and are arguing minutia, JMO. :o
sigh....what else is new? Jason wont admit it but we actually agree more than we disagree :shrug:

I already said I wasnt trying to argue with him.........

btw: the story I heard was that Whittington went away from the group to retrieve his own kill and walked back to the group and into a face/body full of shot. Now I've heard that he came up behind Cheney and didnt announce himself and that some have said that was negligent, but I ask you: if you walk up BEHIND a hunting party wouldnt you assume that the prey they are going to shoot at is in front of them? Do you announce yourself in that type of scenario? I dont know, I dont go hunting...(with good reason obviously) Apparently it was Whittington's bad luck that another covey of quail was flushed in his general vicinity and Cheney whirled and shot without ascertaining the full situation (ie: Whittington's return)

[chiliD]

One of the contradictory points in the accounts of the events was that Cheney said that Whittington was "90 yards away". Doctors say the injuries suffered were such that the spray of the shotgun pellets would've had to have been within 20 or 30 feet. That's quite a discrepancy in distance.

[irishgrl]

OK, it's obvious some of us are hearing a few different details about all of this. IMO, if Cheney was standing there & the guy walked in front of him and got shot because he walked into the line of fire, yes the victim was partially at fault along with Cheney. If he was behind Cheney & Cheney turned around quickly & fired without really looking & aiming first, that's negligent on Cheney's part, accident or not.

Should he have announced "hey, guys, I'm back here" - probably. But shouldn't you look first before you pull the trigger? It's not like they were deer hunting & he mistook him for a large animal from far away. :shrug:

btw: a technicality, but I think the argument could be made for contributory negligence whether the victim came from behind or from the front. Apparently its common sense to announce your presence so that this sort of accident doesnt occur.

[irishgrl]

One of the contradictory points in the accounts of the events was that Cheney said that Whittington was "90 yards away". Doctors say the injuries suffered were such that the spray of the shotgun pellets would've had to have been within 20 or 30 feet. That's quite a discrepancy in distance.
WELL NOW.......thats a juicy bit I hadnt latched onto.....that shifts blame quite a bit into the Cheney Camp. hmmmmmmm

so does that mean there were MORE pellets rather than less? That's a whole NEW kettle of fish IMO..........esp when we're talking LEAD pellets........that CANT be good..........

[Rickypt]

Did you see it last night? Where Stewart kept stopping for a spot of tea? And kept rubbing his nipples in excitement? F*cking hilarious. :nod:

I'll watch it tonight. I tape them and watch a day behind.

[irishgrl]

Cheney: 'You Can't Blame Anybody Else'

By NEDRA PICKLER and LYNN BREZOSKY, Associated Press Writers 2 hours, 1 minute ago

WASHINGTON - Vice President
Dick Cheney took the blame Wednesday for shooting a hunting companion, calling it "one of the worst days of my life," but he was defiantly unapologetic about not publicly disclosing the accident until the next day.
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"You can't blame anybody else," Cheney told Fox News Channel in his first public comments since the accident on a private Texas ranch Saturday. "I'm the guy who pulled the trigger and shot my friend."

Cheney said he had had a beer at lunch that day but nobody was drinking when they went back out to hunt several hours later. Law enforcement officials have ruled out alcohol as a factor.

The vice president has been under intense political pressure to speak out about the accident, which has become a public relations embarrassment and potential political liability for the White House. Senior advisers to
President Bush worried that Cheney's silence had suggested a possible cover-up.

Cheney was soft-spoken and appeared shaken as he described seeing 78-year-old Harry Whittington drop to the ground after he pulled the trigger on his 28-gauge shotgun while aiming at a covey of quail.

"The image of him falling is something I'll never ever be able to get out of my mind," Cheney told Fox's Brit Hume. "I fired, and there's Harry falling. It was, I'd have to say, one of the worst days of my life at that moment."

Cheney adamantly defended his decision not to publicly disclose what happened until the next day, when he agreed to the suggestion of ranch owner Katharine Armstrong to have her announce it to a local newspaper. "I thought that was the right call. I still do," the vice president said.

Armstrong has suggested that Whittington was at fault in the shooting because, she said, he failed to announce himself as he returned to the hunting line after breaking off to retrieve a downed bird. But Cheney, an avid and longtime hunter, said in no uncertain terms that Whittington was not at fault.

"You can talk about all of the other conditions that exist at the time, but that's the bottom line and — it was not Harry's fault," he said.

Texas officials said the shooting was an accident, and no charges have been brought.

Cheney said it was fortunate he always has medical support traveling with him, so Whittington was able to get immediate care. The lawyer was hit with birdshot in the face, neck and chest.

"I ran over to him," Cheney said. "He was laying there on his back, obviously, bleeding. You could see where the shot struck him."

Cheney said he had no idea if he hit a bird because he was focused on Whittington.

"I said, `Harry, I had no idea you were there.' He didn't respond," Cheney said.

Whittington was in stable condition Wednesday at a Texas hospital, a day after doctors said one of the pellets traveled to his heart and he had what they called "a mild heart attack."

The Austin attorney and Republican activist was still in intensive care, but hospital officials said that was just because it was the most private place they could treat him and not because his condition demanded it. He had a normal heart rhythm Wednesday afternoon and was sitting in a chair, eating and planning to do some legal work in his room, the officials said.

Cheney said he had agreed that Armstrong should be the one to make the story public because she was an eyewitness, because she grew up on the ranch and because she is "an acknowledged expert in all of this" as a past head of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. He also agreed with her decision to choose the Corpus Christi Caller-Times as the way to get the news out.

"I thought that made good sense because you can get as accurate a story as possible from somebody who knew and understood hunting and then it would immediately go up to the wires and be posted on the Web site, which is the way it went out and I thought that was the right call," Cheney said.

"What do you think now?" Hume asked.

"I still do," Cheney responded. "The accuracy was enormously important. I had no press person with me."

Through hospital officials, Whittington has declined to comment.

"He still kind of wonders what all the hoopla is about," said Peter Banko, administrator of Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial.