Shipper?

[joshywashy377]

what is a shipper? im curious i hear (or see in this case) people talk about them but i dont know what one is!

[michelle2677]

well...from my understanding it is someone who is invested mostly in the relation"ship" of two people.

Ie: lindsey and stevie
scully and mulder
ross and rachel
carrie and mr. big.(or aiden-take your pick)
and on and on.

[Lala]

well...from my understanding it is someone who is invested mostly in the relation"ship" of two people.

OMG. I read a post on here where someone referred to themselves as a "shipper" and I just assumed they meant they worked for Fed Ex or something. :lol:

Colour me stupid!

[DavidMn]

What about Bush and Cheney?:lol:

[Miss Vicky]

OMG. I read a post on here where someone referred to themselves as a "shipper" and I just assumed they meant they worked for Fed Ex or something. :lol:

Colour me stupid!

Well the comment about being a shipper was in response to one of my posts, and you know something? I thought they were a delivery driver too and didn't understand how that related to my post.

Guess I'm stupid too.

[Lala]

Well the comment about being a shipper was in response to one of my posts, and you know something? I thought they were a delivery driver too and didn't understand how that related to my post.

Guess I'm stupid too.

LOL I jost thought they meant like in the shipper business you never give up and packages get where they are supposed to go. :lol:

[sara1998]

well...from my understanding it is someone who is invested mostly in the relation"ship" of two people.

Ie: lindsey and stevie
scully and mulder
ross and rachel
carrie and mr. big.(or aiden-take your pick)
and on and on.
Worshipper: as in Stevie.

.... Hell, maybe I'm wrong, who knows??

[StevieNicksEO17]

well...from my understanding it is someone who is invested mostly in the relation"ship" of two people.

Ie: lindsey and stevie
scully and mulder
ross and rachel
carrie and mr. big.(or aiden-take your pick)
and on and on.

Yup, that's exactly it!! :)

[jannieC]

I think calling yourself a "shipper" in the context of Fleetwood Mac means that you are of the mindset that Lindsey and Stevie have more of a relationship than other people believe. Did that make sense?

[Merf]

what is a shipper? im curious i hear (or see in this case) people talk about them but i dont know what one is!

It's sort of like being on a team. Like, for example, my teams are the Tar Heels, Harry & Hermione, Sark & Sydney, Buffy & Spike, Max & Liz, Nick & Sara, and whoever is playing Duke University that day.

[irishgrl]

I think calling yourself a "shipper" in the context of Fleetwood Mac means that you are of the mindset that Lindsey and Stevie have more of a relationship than other people believe. Did that make sense?
Yez. and I most certainly am a PROUD SHIPPER.

[crylove77]

I'm a shipper to the death and proud of it! This is what I posted on Seven Wonders when someone asked the same question:

Shipper is short for relationshipper. Shippers typically believe one, a few, or all of the following:

-Stevie and Lindsey are still in love with each other.
-They never really stopped loving each other romantically, even after their 70's breakup.
-They are having an affair and have been since at least The Dance.
-Maybe they're not having a torrid affair, but they hook up on occasion when the mood strikes.
-Believe that even though they were not together publicly post break-up, they were still "together" if ya know what I mean.
-SnL have sort of a psychic bond.
-SnL are simply addicted to each other and just can't break the bond or cut off the sexual attraction.
-Lindsey married Kristen partly because:
a- Stevie told him to
b- he settled for 2nd choice because Stevie wouldn't marry him circa The Dance
-Lindsey sold the 'house on the hill' due to his pending divorce from Kristen.
-Believe that more songs of Stevie's are about Lindsey than is universally recognized, and vice versa.

In a nutshell, shippers believe and want Stevie and Lindsey to be together, as they are perfect for each other.

Shippers, add to this what you will. It's almost 3am and this is all I could think of off the top of my head.

[irishgrl]

I'm a shipper to the death and proud of it! This is what I posted on Seven Wonders when someone asked the same question:

Shipper is short for relationshipper. Shippers typically believe one, a few, or all of the following:

-Stevie and Lindsey are still in love with each other.
-They never really stopped loving each other romantically, even after their 70's breakup.
-They are having an affair and have been since at least The Dance.
-Maybe they're not having a torrid affair, but they hook up on occasion when the mood strikes.
-Believe that even though they were not together publicly post break-up, they were still "together" if ya know what I mean.
-SnL have sort of a psychic bond.
-SnL are simply addicted to each other and just can't break the bond or cut off the sexual attraction.
-Lindsey married Kristen partly because:
a- Stevie told him to
b- he settled for 2nd choice because Stevie wouldn't marry him circa The Dance
-Lindsey sold the 'house on the hill' due to his pending divorce from Kristen.
-Believe that more songs of Stevie's are about Lindsey than is universally recognized, and vice versa.

In a nutshell, shippers believe and want Stevie and Lindsey to be together, as they are perfect for each other.

Shippers, add to this what you will. It's almost 3am and this is all I could think of off the top of my head.

Hi Angie :) aint Love GRAND? and aint it nice when us romantics get a brief few seconds in the spotlight?

HINT HINT all the BN regulars can come out now....c'mon! its a golden opportunity~

[crylove77]

Hi Angie :) aint Love GRAND? and aint it nice when us romantics get a brief few seconds in the spotlight?

HINT HINT all the BN regulars can come out now....c'mon! its a golden opportunity~

:wavey: I miss our shipper board!:( Shippers, come out, come out, wherever you are.:]

[irishgrl]

Yeah, I know, right? I miss our shipper board!:( Shippers, come out, come out, wherever you are.:wavey:

its still around silly girl, you just have to go to the OTHER version. PM me if you want the address.

[joshywashy377]

thx guys! confusion is cleaered

[crylove77]

its still around silly girl, you just have to go to the OTHER version. PM me if you want the address.

My computer is being mean to me. It coughing and wheezing lately and I'm gonna get a new one after the holidays. I can read the old board, but I can't post there!:mad:

[irishgrl]

My computer is being mean to me. It coughing and wheezing lately and I'm gonna get a new one after the holidays. I can read the old board, but I can't post there!:mad:well, girlie I dont know what to say....are we talking the ezboard? if so, I can give you a link to MY login if you want....

[goldustsongbird]

well...from my understanding it is someone who is invested mostly in the relation"ship" of two people.

Ie: lindsey and stevie
scully and mulder
ross and rachel
carrie and mr. big.(or aiden-take your pick)
and on and on.

I think the people at the X-Files OS were responsible for coining the term shipper. Or at least, the XF fanbase. Could be wrong, but that's the way it was always told in phile land. ;)

[CreepingDeath]

Harry & Hermione

I happen to support this team as well (in the midst of all the Ron & Hermione shippers). We're a rare breed my friend.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I'm a shipper to the death and proud of it! This is what I posted on Seven Wonders when someone asked the same question:

Shipper is short for relationshipper. Shippers typically believe one, a few, or all of the following:

-Stevie and Lindsey are still in love with each other.
-They never really stopped loving each other romantically, even after their 70's breakup.
-They are having an affair and have been since at least The Dance.
-Maybe they're not having a torrid affair, but they hook up on occasion when the mood strikes.
-Believe that even though they were not together publicly post break-up, they were still "together" if ya know what I mean.
-SnL have sort of a psychic bond.
-SnL are simply addicted to each other and just can't break the bond or cut off the sexual attraction.
-Lindsey married Kristen partly because:
a- Stevie told him to
b- he settled for 2nd choice because Stevie wouldn't marry him circa The Dance
-Lindsey sold the 'house on the hill' due to his pending divorce from Kristen.
-Believe that more songs of Stevie's are about Lindsey than is universally recognized, and vice versa.

In a nutshell, shippers believe and want Stevie and Lindsey to be together, as they are perfect for each other.

Shippers, add to this what you will. It's almost 3am and this is all I could think of off the top of my head.

What do you call us Fleetwood Mac fans who could give a flying fig less about frick and frack, and who are more obsessed with...like...say...Chris, Bob and others...just cause we are invested in the music, not the drama?;) :)

[Johnny Stew]

What do you call us Fleetwood Mac fans who could give a flying fig less about frick and frack...just cause we are invested in the music, not the drama?;) :)You're not into drama?
And here all this time I thought the Pope was Catholic.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You're not into drama?
And here all this time I thought the Pope was Catholic.

Well yea, I'm totally into MY DRAMA! Or should I say...drama that is interesting!

And this never ending Stevie and Lindsey drama is just down right boring! WHO CARES!?!?

Now, do the rest of us get a name? Or is it just assumed that all "Macers" give a sh*t about Stevie and Lindsey?:lol:

[Johnny Stew]

Well yea, I'm totally into MY DRAMA! Or should I say...drama that is interesting!As long as you acknowledge that "interesting" is entirely subjective. ;)

Now, do the rest of us get a name? Or is it just assumed that all "Macers" give a sh*t about Stevie and Lindsey?:lol:Uhm... non-shippers?

Of course, you're assuming that simply because one is a fan of both Stevie & Lindsey, that one also wishes to see them together romantically (or suspects that they're already secretly together). There are plenty of us who are fans of both, without being interested in their relationship beyond the degree to which it informs the music.

[Jyqm]

Well yea, I'm totally into MY DRAMA! Or should I say...drama that is interesting!

And this never ending Stevie and Lindsey drama is just down right boring! WHO CARES!?!?

Now, do the rest of us get a name? Or is it just assumed that all "Macers" give a sh*t about Stevie and Lindsey?:lol:

Now now, what did we talk about with you and your labels, Brown Eyes?

[Jyqm]

I think the people at the X-Files OS were responsible for coining the term shipper. Or at least, the XF fanbase. Could be wrong, but that's the way it was always told in phile land. ;)

I think that's right, or at least I believe it. Given when it aired, The X-Files was really one of the first television shows that was able to develop an obsessed online fan community, and the whole will-they-won't-they thing was always a huge part of that.

[jannieC]

Of course, you're assuming that simply because one is a fan of both Stevie & Lindsey, that one also wishes to see them together romantically (or suspects that they're already secretly together). There are plenty of us who are fans of both, without being interested in their relationship beyond the degree to which it informs the music.
Exactly. And truthfully, I really have NEVER cared what their relationship is, other than the fact that it has led them to write incredible music.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Now now, what did we talk about with you and your labels, Brown Eyes?

...make sure they are always proper? :shrug:

[cliffdweller]

Buffy & Spike

Uh...don't you mean Buffy and Angel? HELLOOOOOOOOO!! :laugh::xoxo:

I guess we're on opposite sides of the fence on this one.

[hayley]

Uh...don't you mean Buffy and Angel? HELLOOOOOOOOO!! :laugh::xoxo:

I guess we're on opposite sides of the fence on this one.
EWWW!@! I will whip out my ship manifesto for Spike & Buffy and will spit on the grave of Buffy & Angel. :P :xoxo:

Spuffy 4-ever, Merf n' Hayley 4-ever, etc.

[TwistedGypsy]

Ahhh the days of shipperdom. It seems like so long ago we were everywhere, but due to the ridicules most have gone "underground". I still believe that the love affair will continue until they both kick the bucket, but thats it. No torrid affair like I used to believe.
Brit

[cliffdweller]

EWWW!@! I will whip out my ship manifesto for Spike & Buffy and will spit on the grave of Buffy & Angel. :P :xoxo:

Spuffy 4-ever, Merf n' Hayley 4-ever, etc.

SPOILER BELOW:

































Hey, I heard a rumor that there might be a new show in the works with Spike as the main character! Have you heard anything about this?? Maybe it was just a rumor :distress: I'd love to see how they pull off his...um....resurrection.

[hayley]

SPOILER BELOW:
They're actually just talking about a movie... either straight to DVD or for the WB. Joss is interested in doing it.

Have you seen any of Angel? Spike joined in the fifth season, the first season after his "demise" on BtVS... they did bring him back. And then Angel ended with him still alive, at least for the time being.

I'm down with anything bringing back the pretty, pretty, pretty cheekbones.

ETA: Joss has also always talked about doing a Giles spin-off for the BBC called Ripper. At one point, they were talking about James Marsters joining that show as well. I guess they just get the power of the Spike and want it everywhere. Understandably.

[cliffdweller]

They're actually just talking about a movie... either straight to DVD or for the WB. Joss is interested in doing it.

Have you seen any of Angel? Spike joined in the fifth season, the first season after his "demise" on BtVS... they did bring him back. And then Angel ended with him still alive, at least for the time being.

I'm down with anything bringing back the pretty, pretty, pretty cheekbones.

ETA: Joss has also always talked about doing a Giles spin-off for the BBC called Ripper. At one point, they were talking about James Marsters joining that show as well. I guess they just get the power of the Spike and want it everywhere. Understandably.

Ahhhh! No, I haven't yet started the Angel series. However, that might be a good one to start over the holidays while I have some time to devote to it. It's nice to know that Spike makes an appearance, however. Those two are my favorite Buffy crushes. HATE Reilly. HATE, HATE, HATE! :laugh:

I hope the Giles spin-off (with Spike) comes to fruition. Those two? Hilarious together. Remember the Buffy episode where they lose their memory and Giles and Spike think they are father and son? OMG, that episode had me rolling in the aisles!

[Jyqm]

Ahhhh! No, I haven't yet started the Angel series. However, that might be a good one to start over the holidays while I have some time to devote to it. It's nice to know that Spike makes an appearance, however.

Angel was a great series and really came into its own as something completely different from Buffy, though existing in the same universe. Though I haven't seen the fifth season yet either, as it first aired the last time I was in Germany for an extended period of time, and I still haven't picked up the DVDs.

Before you watch the first episode of Angel, though, rewatch the first episode of season four of Buffy ("The Freshman," I believe). There's a very minor, fleeting correlation between the two episodes, but it's really a nice one, I think. (Actually, the whole first season of Angel is really better watched in correlation with the fourth season of Buffy, as there are a lot of crossovers and mixed plotlines and such.)

[hayley]

It's nice to know that Spike makes an appearance, however. Those two are my favorite Buffy crushes. HATE Reilly. HATE, HATE, HATE!

Oh, Riley. OH, he's so gross. When I started watching Buffy, my boss was the one loaning me the sets and was all- Just wait til you get to Riley!(*@! He's so great!! He's my dream boyfriend!@&*!

So when I actually GOT to the Riley parts... my opinion of her dropped like -10,000.

I hope the Giles spin-off (with Spike) comes to fruition. Those two? Hilarious together. Remember the Buffy episode where they lose their memory and Giles and Spike think they are father and son? OMG, that episode had me rolling in the aisles!
It's one of those things they've talked about doing for so long and just hasn't gotten off the ground... the Spike movie thing seems like it may actually happen, just because they're actually talking to one of the writers of the show about writing and directing it and are talking story. I dunno. I just want more Spike!

I LOVE that episode, Tabula Rasa, when Spike thinks he's Giles' kid and that his name is Randy Giles. It's just too funny.

Angel was a great series and really came into its own as something completely different from Buffy, though existing in the same universe. Though I haven't seen the fifth season yet either, as it first aired the last time I was in Germany for an extended period of time, and I still haven't picked up the DVDs.

I just finished Angel last week... and while I recognize it's a great show in its own right, I vastly prefer Buffy. Angel's just so damned broody, and I couldn't get over some of the crap they tried to perpetrate in the fourth season. I was amazed at just how much they made me LOVE Wesley. It's a good show- I just prefer the arcs of Buffy, I think.

Who am I kidding? I'm ragging on it because I'm PISSED that they blew the opportunity of having Spike sing for Lorne in the fifth season. All I wanted was some singing. A little "You Really Got Me"? A little "You Were Always On My Mind"? I would've died.

Back on topic- STEVIE & LINDSEY FOREVER, etc.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

EWWW!@! I will whip out my ship manifesto for Spike & Buffy and will spit on the grave of Buffy & Angel. :P :xoxo:

Spuffy 4-ever, Merf n' Hayley 4-ever, etc.

Spuffy ROCKS! ALWAYS...

What about Anya and Giles! :laugh: :)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Angel was a great series and really came into its own as something completely different from Buffy, though existing in the same universe. Though I haven't seen the fifth season yet either, as it first aired the last time I was in Germany for an extended period of time, and I still haven't picked up the DVDs.

Before you watch the first episode of Angel, though, rewatch the first episode of season four of Buffy ("The Freshman," I believe). There's a very minor, fleeting correlation between the two episodes, but it's really a nice one, I think. (Actually, the whole first season of Angel is really better watched in correlation with the fourth season of Buffy, as there are a lot of crossovers and mixed plotlines and such.)

Yea I agree with watching them hand in hand. They were both still with the WB at the time so they did a crossover like every chance they could!

GOD I miss those shows...

after seeing Angel walking out in the sunlight...
Cordy: Oh my GOD!.....You got an umbrella! :laugh:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

HATE Reilly. HATE, HATE, HATE! :laugh:



You and me both! UGH! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Jyqm]

I LOVE that episode, Tabula Rasa, when Spike thinks he's Giles' kid and that his name is Randy Giles. It's just too funny.

"Randy Giles?! Why not just name me Horny Giles?! Or Desperately-Needs-A-Shag Giles?!"

I just finished Angel last week... and while I recognize it's a great show in its own right, I vastly prefer Buffy. Angel's just so damned broody, and I couldn't get over some of the crap they tried to perpetrate in the fourth season. I was amazed at just how much they made me LOVE Wesley. It's a good show- I just prefer the arcs of Buffy, I think.

I think I might be in the minority, but I really enjoyed the whole arc of Angel season 4. I'm not sure if it plays out quite so well watching it on DVD all at once, but week by week, I thought it was really exciting and a lot of fun. Though it was a shame that Charisma Carpenter's role got so diminished. (What exactly happened there? I know there were rumours at the time about contract disputes and such.)

At any rate, I vastly preferred it to the arc of the seventh season of Buffy. [DON'T READ BEYOND THIS SENTENCE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW.] That started out really strong, but very quickly fell apart, I thought. The "Look at all the Slayers!" thing got boring pretty quickly, as none of those characters were terribly interesting. And while it was nice to have lots of old guest stars back in the mix, I didn't think they used the First Evil as a villain (or Spike as a brainwashed minion) as well as they could have. In the plus column, though: I like that they brought back the high school, and I enjoyed Principal Wood's character (though his lineage felt a little forced and contrived to me). And it was great to have Andrew back.

But overall, I think Buffy's seventh season suffered from the same thing that plagued the latter half of season six: It felt like Joss wasn't as involved or paying as much attention, and both the major plot arcs and the writing often became clumsy or overwrought or just plain ridiculous. ("Smashed" is my cut-off point. After that, the show just seemed to adopt a very odd change in tone and take a rapid nose dive, from which it never fully recovered, at least not consistently.)

[snowman]

what is a shipper? im curious i hear (or see in this case) people talk about them but i dont know what one is!

I thought a shipper was just a larger version of a boater... rim shot

[Brwn_eyes0511]

But overall, I think Buffy's seventh season suffered from the same thing that plagued the latter half of season six: It felt like Joss wasn't as involved or paying as much attention, and both the major plot arcs and the writing often became clumsy or overwrought or just plain ridiculous. ("Smashed" is my cut-off point. After that, the show just seemed to adopt a very odd change in tone and take a rapid nose dive, from which it never fully recovered, at least not consistently.)


Yea I tend to agree with you on this. Most of the beginning of season six I honestly did enjoy...especially more of the quirky ones like "Live Serial"...but as the season went on it just took a turn for the, dare I say, too serious...it seemed like every time you turned around something else tragic was happening. Although there were still some pretty awesome episodes..."Hell's Bells" was amazing...Anya's "walk" at the end had me in tears. "Entropy" was also a favorite of mine..."What the hell kind of lesbians are you? If you love men so much...go love men!" :lol:

[hayley]

I think I might be in the minority, but I really enjoyed the whole arc of Angel season 4. I'm not sure if it plays out quite so well watching it on DVD all at once, but week by week, I thought it was really exciting and a lot of fun. Though it was a shame that Charisma Carpenter's role got so diminished. (What exactly happened there? I know there were rumours at the time about contract disputes and such.)
My problem with it is more a general hatred of Connor. I also felt Charisma's performances while she was the big bad were lacking. She just didn't get me. It had no impact on me whatsoever that Cordy, a character I really loved and was invested in, had gone evil like that. I just wasn't feeling it. I LIKED the Jasmine thing, aside from the fact that she was Connor & Cordy's kid. I thought the ep "Shiny Happy People" where Jasmine first starts taking over the world with her joy was great.

I think my favorite arc on Angel was the fall of Wesley, and the Wesley/Lilah relationship. I loved seeing Wesley's darker side there.

At any rate, I vastly preferred it to the arc of the seventh season of Buffy. [DON'T READ BEYOND THIS SENTENCE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW.] That started out really strong, but very quickly fell apart, I thought. The "Look at all the Slayers!" thing got boring pretty quickly, as none of those characters were terribly interesting. And while it was nice to have lots of old guest stars back in the mix, I didn't think they used the First Evil as a villain (or Spike as a brainwashed minion) as well as they could have. In the plus column, though: I like that they brought back the high school, and I enjoyed Principal Wood's character (though his lineage felt a little forced and contrived to me). And it was great to have Andrew back.
I really feel like the sixth and seventh season had so many missed opportunities, so many weird characterizations, and so many other problems, but it didn't really bother me as much as most- probably because I came to the show late and didn't have to suffer through it as it was playing in real time. I love certain things about those seasons- episodes like Fool for Love, Conversations with Dead People, Once More With Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Storyteller. I loved the Trio. I loved the IDEA of the First Evil, I just hated the execution and the screwups. I loved the idea of turning all the Potentials into actual Slayers, despite how much I HATED the Potentials that were living in the house. It was a mixed bag.

I will also be ambivalent until the end of days about giving Spike a soul, but still having Buffy treat him like a subhuman. Either let him keep his soul (and his balls) and never have Buffy, or give him his soul, take his balls, and let him be a man Buffy can and will be with. Don't neuter him and then not even reward him in the end. It ticks me off a little.

Anyhow, long post short- I agree with you about the writing on 6 & 7- it's frustrating because I can see what they were trying to do, it just didn't work. Watching the carefully constructed metaphors in the show devolve into just having everything spelled out was the worst. I mean, think of the scene in Season 3 where Angel feeds off Buffy- at the time, that whole scene as a metaphor for sex felt overpowering and a bit heavy-handed to me. Skip to Season 6, and Spike & Buffy are having sex and the house caves in around them. Hello, anvil. It's frustrating.

I'm glad to hear you like Andrew, Jyqm. So many hate him, and I love him.

[Jyqm]

Yea I tend to agree with you on this. Most of the beginning of season six I honestly did enjoy...especially more of the quirky ones like "Live Serial"...but as the season went on it just took a turn for the, dare I say, too serious...it seemed like every time you turned around something else tragic was happening. Although there were still some pretty awesome episodes..."Hell's Bells" was amazing...Anya's "walk" at the end had me in tears. "Entropy" was also a favorite of mine..."What the hell kind of lesbians are you? If you love men so much...go love men!" :lol:

My problem with the latter half of season six wasn't so much the "seriousness" - because the show had certainly been plenty serious before that, and to great effect - as much as the ponderousness and the clunkiness of the writing. A lot of that came from the whole "magic = drugs" thing, which not only was a horrible metaphor, but they just beat us over the head with it week after week. Before "Wrecked," Willow's arc was really going somewhere interesting. Her increasing use of and dependency on magic was shown as being indicative of her exploring the darker parts of her nature, becoming obsessed with her newfound power and confidence (two things she never had much earlier in the show), and becoming increasingly averse to dealing with problems in her life in a normal way. Then suddenly it was as though the writers decided that was all just too subtle and complex for them, and in the span of a single episode, they completely changed her character arc and turned her into this helpless junkie, then proceeded to make the whole plotline as heavy-handed as possible.

And the same thing happened with Buffy's plotline. I loved the idea of having her become increasingly cold and depressed after her botched resurrection. I loved that she was using the idea that she somehow "came back wrong" as an excuse to indulge in her darker nature as well by taking up with Spike, only to find out that she was actually completely "normal." But again, after a certain point, the writers seemed to abandon the subtlety and ocmplexity that was there, and it just became the "Let's do something really obvious to make Buffy feel bad about herself" show. The absolute nadir, of course, being "As You Were." Before Riley left, they had finally managed to make his character complex and interesting at the beginning of season five; bringing him back as this happy-go-lucky paragon who was there only to make Buffy feel bad about herself in comparison made me want to throw rocks at my television (and I'm not a Riley hater otherwise).

Yes, things picked up a little towards the end. "Entropy" was a very good episode, and I loved "Normal Again" and "Seeing Red," but the last three episodes seemed to slip back towards that heavy-handedness.

That said, I think most the first nine episodes of that season are right up there with some of the best, and even the ones that aren't great still have that air about them that was just lost after "Wrecked."

[sparky]

I never, ever got the genesis of the word "shipper" before. It never occured to me that it was derived from relation"ship". One more mystery solved.

[cliffdweller]

I was amazed at just how much they made me LOVE Wesley.

LOVE Wesley. And I was very pleased to find out that he and Alyson Hannigan are married in real life! :xoxo:

Okay, okay, back to the topic at hand...

[cliffdweller]

"Randy Giles?! Why not just name me Horny Giles?! Or Desperately-Needs-A-Shag Giles?!"

I think I might be in the minority, but I really enjoyed the whole arc of Angel season 4. I'm not sure if it plays out quite so well watching it on DVD all at once, but week by week, I thought it was really exciting and a lot of fun. Though it was a shame that Charisma Carpenter's role got so diminished. (What exactly happened there? I know there were rumours at the time about contract disputes and such.)

At any rate, I vastly preferred it to the arc of the seventh season of Buffy. [DON'T READ BEYOND THIS SENTENCE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW.] That started out really strong, but very quickly fell apart, I thought. The "Look at all the Slayers!" thing got boring pretty quickly, as none of those characters were terribly interesting. And while it was nice to have lots of old guest stars back in the mix, I didn't think they used the First Evil as a villain (or Spike as a brainwashed minion) as well as they could have. In the plus column, though: I like that they brought back the high school, and I enjoyed Principal Wood's character (though his lineage felt a little forced and contrived to me). And it was great to have Andrew back.

But overall, I think Buffy's seventh season suffered from the same thing that plagued the latter half of season six: It felt like Joss wasn't as involved or paying as much attention, and both the major plot arcs and the writing often became clumsy or overwrought or just plain ridiculous. ("Smashed" is my cut-off point. After that, the show just seemed to adopt a very odd change in tone and take a rapid nose dive, from which it never fully recovered, at least not consistently.)

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IMHO, the series took a bit of a nose-dive after Angel left, but I'm an Angel groupie so don't mind me :laugh:. I was also sad to see Oz go and I never really got into Tara. Oh, Anya was a great addition as a regular :thumbsup:. Okay, wait, I said I was going to get back on topic! :laugh:

[Jyqm]

I thought the ep "Shiny Happy People" where Jasmine first starts taking over the world with her joy was great.

Is that the one that begins with Fred running through LA searching for safety while "Wouldn't It Be Nice" plays? I love that scene.

I think my favorite arc on Angel was the fall of Wesley, and the Wesley/Lilah relationship. I loved seeing Wesley's darker side there.

Yes yes yes. Great stuff, and Mr. Denisof did an amazing job portraying it.

I really feel like the sixth and seventh season had so many missed opportunities, so many weird characterizations, and so many other problems, but it didn't really bother me as much as most- probably because I came to the show late and didn't have to suffer through it as it was playing in real time. I love certain things about those seasons- episodes like Fool for Love, Conversations with Dead People, Once More With Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Storyteller. I loved the Trio. I loved the IDEA of the First Evil, I just hated the execution and the screwups.

Again, yes yes yes, and I too love each of those individual episodes that you mentioned.

The strange about watching season six in "real time": I didn't dislike it so much at the time. The first part of the season had been so strong, that when the bad episodes started, I forgave them somewhat and figured they were just a hiccup, and things would get back on track soon. And then there were some individual episodes that gave me hope. But by the summer, looking back on the season as a whole, it just seemed really disappointing. The ratio of good/great/amazing episodes to ehh/ugh episodes seemed completely reversed from previous seasons. The bar had been dropped in a big way, and while some of the seventh did bring things back up a little, it very rarely achieved the same heights that the first five seasons did so regularly. And again, a lot of that has to do with just bad, clumsy plotting and seemingly uninspired writing. (One of the things I hated most about season seven: "Ooh, wait, do you think Giles might be the First Evil? Huh? Maybe? Maybe? Ooh! Wait... Nahhhh, just kidding! Haha! Phew!" What the hell was the point of that?)

I will also be ambivalent until the end of days about giving Spike a soul, but still having Buffy treat him like a subhuman. Either let him keep his soul (and his balls) and never have Buffy, or give him his soul, take his balls, and let him be a man Buffy can and will be with. Don't neuter him and then not even reward him in the end. It ticks me off a little.

Yeah, Spike's story just got too muddled and compromised in the end. I think a large part of this is that there was no real consensus among a lot of the writers about what attitude to take towards him, whether he would ultimately be good or remain inherently evil, how to portray him, where to go with his "soul-searching," etc. (I don't even remember, how did Spike get his soul? He skipped town at one point towards the end of season six, right? And then suddenly was back and kind of insane at the beginning of season seven, and had a soul for some reason?)

I'm glad to hear you like Andrew, Jyqm. So many hate him, and I love him.

I always found him entertaining, and I really liked the "Trio" for most of that season.

Question: As someone who watched all the seasons at once in a very short amount of time, what did you think about Jonathan as part of the trio, with such an increased role on the show? He was something of a cult favorite for long time during the second and third seasons, with his rather sparse appearances, almost always in danger or just being nerdy and off to the side for a very brief scene, and then I think fan reaction to his becoming a prominent "villain" was very mixed.

Random memory: Those damned Columbine kids really screwed up the ending of season three. The episode "Earshot" was never aired until the end of that summer, right before season four started, and the third season finale wasn't aired until several weeks after it was supposed to be, and then it was edited to cut down on a lot of the violence. It aired uncut and on time in Canada, though, so the episode became very heavily traded online during those few weeks.

[Jyqm]

IMHO, the series took a bit of a nose-dive after Angel left, but I'm an Angel groupie so don't mind me :laugh:.

Hey, but at least he got his own show!

I always liked Angel (and liked watching David Boreanaz's evolution as an actor over the course of his tenure on both shows), but I was glad to see him leave Buffy. The Buffy-Angel plotline had reached a natural conclusion, and to try and milk too much more drama out of it would have just come of as contrived, I think. Part of me wishes they'd done the same with Spike at some point.

[cliffdweller]

Before "Wrecked," Willow's arc was really going somewhere interesting. Her increasing use of and dependency on magic was shown as being indicative of her exploring the darker parts of her nature, becoming obsessed with her newfound power and confidence (two things she never had much earlier in the show), and becoming increasingly averse to dealing with problems in her life in a normal way. Then suddenly it was as though the writers decided that was all just too subtle and complex for them, and in the span of a single episode, they completely changed her character arc and turned her into this helpless junkie, then proceeded to make the whole plotline as heavy-handed as possible.

I'm with you here. The thing is, and as you say, they couldn't leave Willow that way, they had to bring her back to the "center" of the group which she always was in the beginning and throughout most of the series. She's the anchor of the show and, and so they couldn't let her delve too darkly into the "black arts" and keep her there. You're right, they could have handled this a bit differently, they could have nuanced her character as kind of a bad-ass magician without having her deep-end that way.

[cliffdweller]

Hey, but at least he got his own show!

I always liked Angel (and liked watching David Boreanaz's evolution as an actor over the course of his tenure on both shows), but I was glad to see him leave Buffy. The Buffy-Angel plotline had reached a natural conclusion, and to try and milk too much more drama out of it would have just come of as contrived, I think. Part of me wishes they'd done the same with Spike at some point.

Oh, agreed. And I suppose leaving the fans wanting more was the best tactic they could have taken. But of course I still pine for those two...they are the ultimate, tragically star-crossed couple. ARGH! It frustrates me to no end!

[Jyqm]

I'm with you here. The thing is, and as you say, they couldn't leave Willow that way, they had to bring her back to the "center" of the group which she always was in the beginning and throughout most of the series. She's the anchor of the show and, and so they couldn't let her delve too darkly into the "black arts" and keep her there. You're right, they could have handled this a bit differently, they could have nuanced her character as kind of a bad-ass magician without having her deep-end that way.

I think part of the reason they took the tack they did was because they wanted Willow to be the "big bad" at the end of the season, but there were a lot of episodes to fill between "Smashed" and the finale... So by adopting the drug metaphor and having her "OD" and then become a "recovering junkie" of sorts, they were able to put that storyline on hold and bring her back to the center of the group for a while, as you said, before having her "relapse" toward the end after Tara's death.

I think they still could have done this - have Willow realize that she'd gone a little overboard and lay off the magic for a while - without resorting to the "magic = drugs and drugs are BAD!" metaphor. Especially since, throughout the course of Willow's "relapse" at the end of the season, the focus is never on the idea that magic is a drug to which she's addicted, but rather that magic is a means for her to avoiding coping with the pain of Tara's senseless death, as well as a way for her to feel that she has the power (however corrupt) to fix the situation and set things right. But oh well. An opportunity lost.

[cliffdweller]

(I don't even remember, how did Spike get his soul? He skipped town at one point towards the end of season six, right? And then suddenly was back and kind of insane at the beginning of season seven, and had a soul for some reason?)

Remember, he went to go fight that demon thingy in that cave :laugh:, he defeated it, and then his soul was restored. That's how I remember it anyway.

[Jyqm]

Remember, he went to go fight that demon thingy in that cave :laugh:, he defeated it, and then his soul was restored. That's how I remember it anyway.

Oh yeah... what episode was that? Were those scenes interspersed in the last two episodes of season six?

He skipped town shortly before that saying something like, "I'll give that bitch what she deserves, show her what I'm capable of," something like that, right? And it was big mystery all summer whether he'd gotten his soul restored or his chip removed or what.

[cliffdweller]

He skipped town shortly before that saying something like, "I'll give that bitch what she deserves, show her what I'm capable of," something like that, right? And it was big mystery all summer whether he'd gotten his soul restored or his chip removed or what.

Yep that's it.

[Merf]

I happen to support this team as well (in the midst of all the Ron & Hermione shippers). We're a rare breed my friend.

Word!

PS, Hayley, I love the crap out of Andrew, too. He was the best part of the last few seasons of BTVS for me.... well besides all the hot Spuffy sex, etc.

Merf n' Hayley 4 Lyfe, Julianmother****ingSARK, puppies & kitties, hearts & flowers, etc. :xoxo:

[SuzeQuze]

Dammit. I didn't think I could care about a Hollywood couple ever again but Rachel Bilson and Adam Brody (Seth and Summer of The O.C.) have done it to me. :distress: They're just so adorable! http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/crazy/1087.gif

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/dating/pics/1113ocdate-autosized141.jpg