View Full Version : John Lennon...
I thought I'd take a chance and start a post about John, since this would have been his 65th year of birth (October 9) and, sadly, the 25th anniversary of his death (December 8).
Basically, I just wanted to see what people here think of John and his music, his life, personality, beliefs, stances, etc. Any thoughts to share? Were you around on December 8, 1980 and do you remember it all? Hopefully, this thread will go somewhere...:o
John's music has a very special place in my heart. Aside form the fact I consider it stunningly beautiful and some of the greatest stuff ever created by anyone on the face of this planet, it has changed my life. It was like a gelling of the two sides of a coin...very hard to put into words. He was both personal and ambiguous, and he always said something truthful, even when he wasn't trying. There were many complexities to his persona that made him such a fascinating and compelling human being. He had convictions that I'm not sure many artists today have a clue about.
All these years later, I think John is still as important and influential. A lot of people will say, "He's dead, get over it." And I can understand their point, but it isn't something I want to do. You can't get over him, and I'm not going to try to anytime soon.
So, yeah...I started this out of curiosity...and appreciation. If you want to say anything about him, please do. :)
irishgrl
11-26-2005, 03:20 AM
I remember John in his pre-Yoko days and after. I loved John anyway, but I couldnt appreciate Yoko the same way he did. I felt his son Julian got short shrift.........
xxxmx
11-26-2005, 07:25 AM
i was a HUGE beatles fan and really got into his solo stuff in high school. when i moved to new york, the first place i went was Strawberry Fields. there's such a positive energy there.
also went for the 20th anniversary of his death. it was eerie. hundreds of people were packed in and several guitarists were playing his music. lots of candles. i brought daisies. at one point, all the guitarists synched up and played Imagine together, everyone was singing really softly. there were candles in the windows of their apartment in the Dakota. the whole evening was just really moving. i have pics somewhere, i'll try to find them and post.
MoonChilde
11-26-2005, 07:44 AM
Having grown up with the Beatles ,they have always held a very special place in my heart.I do remember when they landed in america and watching with amazement on tv the crowds of people crying hysterically and thinking this is something big.Watching them perform for the first time on Ed Sullivan sitting with my older brother and sister as they were glued to the Tv ,I fell in love with John and Paul immediately..I remember my friend and I collected all the trading cards we could and we used to play for house pretending we were married to John and even going as far as writing him letters..LOL..I was 6 or 7 at the time..His music touches something deep inside and you come away feeling not only soothed but a better person for it..
I do remember the day he was taken from us..I was at a bowling alley and the whole entire place when silent as the news was reported.I remember feeling so very sad and somehow vicitimized.I cried on the whole drive home, and that whole holiday season was one of reflection and a sorta sadness as we thought of what a great soul we had lost..
xxxmx
11-26-2005, 07:52 AM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/xxxmx/scan0002.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/xxxmx/scan0001.jpg
CrystalVisions
11-26-2005, 08:30 AM
John Lennon was the most amazing, talented man in the world, to me...I still cannot believe he has been gone from us this long, and miss not just his music, but the man himself. John was such a unique and special person, and then such an incredible musician, in my view. Thank you for this thread honouring him, where we can all share what he and his music has been to all of us. :angel:
jannieC
11-26-2005, 09:09 AM
I am 37 years old now- my parents were Beatles fanatics when I was growing up, therefore us kids became fanatics as well! Certain Beatles songs take me straight back to my childhood. I remember the day he was killed. We only had one TV in my house and it was in my parent's bedroom. My brother, sister, and I were sitting on my parent's bed watching TV when the news announced his shooting. We immediately started bawling and my mom came in and started crying, too. It was awful. My husband and I just watched a special on one of those 48 Hours type shows on Mark Chapman. At one point Chapman said he went to Hawaii to kill himself (before he shot and killed Lennon) and I thought, "God! If only he had!". One can't help but wonder how much more John Lennon had to offer us. As far as his relationship with Yoko goes, I always thought it was amazing how much they loved each other. Like her or not, he adored her.
Sometimes it seems amazing that his death happened 25 years ago.
I performed "Imagine" in high school while (one of my few "public" performances) my best friend played the piano. Considering where I was, some people were horrified that I was saying things like "Imagine there's no heaven" and no religion and so on, but others, those were older, just cried. I remember thinking I hope you can hear me, John, and I hope that somehow he did know it was for him and that I'm so grateful he gave us that beautiful song that I'm, thankfully, not too cynical to stop believing in.
That sounds absolutely incredible. I wish I had a singing voice, so I could sing Across the Universe or a stripped-down version of In My Life...something like that. I would have loved to see you, Hil! :xoxo:
As far as John's relationship with Yoko...I'm cool with it. Circumstances were what they were. I actually read John's ex-wife Cynthia's recent book. It was a nice book, but there was a point when I realized that Cynthia herself couldn't really handle John. She was somewhat prudish and conforming, and a little stiff in many ways- while he was always moving forward, checking out the newest thing, going far too fast for anyone around him. He needed someone who was on the same level as him, intellectually, and in other ways. I believe he got that with Yoko. Absolutely.
"I'd never met a woman I considered as intelligent as me. That sounds big-headed, but every woman I met was either a dolly-chick, or a sort of screwed-up intellectual chick. And of course, in the field I was in, I didn't meet many intellectual people anyway. I always had this dream of meeting an artist, an artist girl who would be like me. And I thought it was a myth, but then I met Yoko and that was it." - John Lennon
DavidMn
11-26-2005, 11:51 AM
He's a musical giant. There's nothing more to say really for me.:nod:
I'm not a huge John Lennon buff as of yet but what I've heard and know I like. His death was a huge loss to the music world and a senseless tragedy. I'm only 17 so I wasn't around on Dec 8 1980. However, the people I live with are celebrating their 25th anniversary on Dec 6 and were on their honeymoon in Hawaii when they heard the news of John's death.
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DavidMn
11-26-2005, 12:12 PM
I remember when he died too cause December 8th was my grandma's birthday.
estranged4life
11-26-2005, 01:47 PM
what I consider a "Once in a Lifetime" musician...There will never be another musician in my lifetime on the level that he was on.
gldstwmn
11-26-2005, 01:50 PM
I do remember when Lennon died and where I was. I remember they interrupted Monday Night Football and I think Howard Cosell was still hosting then to say that he had been shot. Such a senseless tragedy.
johndoe
11-26-2005, 06:34 PM
Theres not much I can say about him that hasn't already been said. I mean, just think what he could have accomplished if he was still alive. I love the Beatles more than I love Fleetwood Mac. Its insane.
On a related note: My friends's name is Marc Chapman, and he's a huge Beatles fan. Oh the irony...
Theres not much I can say about him that hasn't already been said.
Nothing you can sing that isn't sung?
I mean, just think what he could have accomplished if he was still alive.
Well, I guess I'll be the guy who's a dick and says that he very well might not have accomplished terribly much, at least musically. John's solo career was always a hit-and-miss affair, and Double Fantasy is a good enough album, but it's far from great. John's death did far more to cement his legacy than any of his post-Beatles work ever did (with the possible exception of the song "Imagine").
jannieC
11-26-2005, 07:55 PM
I've always kind of assumed that him dying had much more to do with him being such a legend than any of his music. Then again, I am not that familiar with much of his music. But maybe that's why I always figured the music wasn't necessarily that huge a part of it - if it was so great I would have heard more of it. It's kind of like Kurt Cobain. His songs weren't that groundbreakingly amazing, at least not enough to make him such a legend. I guess both of them contributed a lot to the world either outside of music, or just more generally to the state of music. Death always makes an easy path to fame anyway. Consider this - was John Lennon such a legend when he was alive? Maybe that's sacreligious, considering the thread I'm in, but I assume the answer is 'no'.
I respectfully disagree with this. His music/songwriting is beyond amazing. John Lennon actually was a bit of a legend before he died. Obviously his tragic death shoved him further into the spotlight, but that death doesn't change the depth and genius of his music.
I've always kind of assumed that him dying had much more to do with him being such a legend than any of his music. Then again, I am not that familiar with much of his music. But maybe that's why I always figured the music wasn't necessarily that huge a part of it - if it was so great I would have heard more of it. It's kind of like Kurt Cobain. His songs weren't that groundbreakingly amazing, at least not enough to make him such a legend. I guess both of them contributed a lot to the world either outside of music, or just more generally to the state of music. Death always makes an easy path to fame anyway. Consider this - was John Lennon such a legend when he was alive? Maybe that's sacreligious, considering the thread I'm in, but I assume the answer is 'no'.
Well, as always, that question requires a bit more than a simple "yes" or "no" answer.
Of course John was something of a "legend" thanks to his work with the Beatles and, to a lesser extent, his first couple of solo albums well before his death. I think it was really during the 70s that John fully emerged as the preferred Beatle among "cool" and "discerning" music fans - the sarcastic, intellectual, philosophical, political hipster-artist in contrast to Paul's sappy mainstream pop idol. Obviously that distinction started to emerge in 60s as well, but it really cemented itself in the early 70s, as their first few solo albums were very different from each other. John was the genius, Paul was... the cute one.
So he had that going for him. But at the same time, his solo stuff later on the 70s was generally regarded to be pretty crappy, so the attitude started to emerge that, "Well, okay, he was great with the Beatles, but that's it, he hit his peak long ago, now he's just spinning his wheels." I think also had some personal issues going on during that time that kind of contributed to the "stick a fork in him, he's done" attitude.
But by 1980 he was kind of getting his **** together, and he recorded Double Fantasy, which I think was being billed as something of a "comeback" album even before it was released. So there was already this kind of buzz in the air that, "Oh, John recorded this new album that's supposed to be really great, he's back in top form," and it got some good reviews (though it got some bad ones as well), and then he's killed just a couple of weeks after it's released. And then of course there's the Rolling Stone cover.
So it's a complex situation, as most situations in life are, and of course we can never know what might have happened had he never been shot, or merely been wounded. But it's certainly not unfair to claim that his sudden, tragic, unexpected death played a big part in his becoming as huge of a legendary figure as he has.
McCartney is a living legend
According to whom?
I don't agree with those who say that his death has made him into more than he was, or those who seem to think his solo music wasn't that great. I respect your right to your opinion, but I completely disagree.
First of all, John was absolutely a legend before his death. He and the rest of the Beatles had taken over the world, dominated the charts, and set more records than any other band previously or since. He was a remarkable songwriter who could project his feelings so powerfully into music. On top of all this, John was one of the few artists out there who cared enough to take bold stances on issues that were very controversial. He spoke his mind regardless of the consequences, and that made him an iconoclast...and yet, he spoke his mind so well that many people could understand and relate to him on so many levels- almost vicariously, actually- and that made him an icon.
I personally LOVE his solo music. Albeit, that sound stuff he did at the very start with Yoko 'aint my bag...but the rest? Love it. His box set proved to me, at a time when I was just beginning to understand his music and life together, how amazing he was. "Plastic Ono Band" is my favorite album of all time, and I have an incredibly varied musical collection. It was bold, raw, full of passion and energy and underlying sensitivity...and it was cathartic and beautiful all at the same time. I have never heard anything like it in my life. I love "Imagine", I love "Mind Games", I love "Walls and Bridges"...those albums are absolutely stunning to me. And his rock and roll cover album kicks..."Double Fantasy"? Gorgeous. And Yoko's stuff on it as well.
I think some of the political stuff, like "Sometime in New York City" has to be taken into context...it was very topical, very "for its time." It made a huge impact on people who were affected by those issues, and John had a lot of courage to do things like that with his career. He could have chosen an easier route, just make nice songs with a good beat, but he decided to make himself and his art more complicated...and that isn't for everyone. But I love him for it.
I HATE when people think that, because John was killed, he suddenly became the Beatle everyone chose to love. Not true. My first Beatle love was George. I was 10, and he was IT for me. I could have cared less about John, despite the fact his songs were always my favorite. But it took time for me to realize just how incredible John was. It wasn't his death or his "martyrism" that made him so cool, and it wasn't Imagine. He had so much more to him that no simple argument could possibly uncover. :nod:
I think John once said that he measured himself as an artist by taking everything he did into perspective, like his work in the Beatles, with Yoko, solo, with Bowie or Nilsson, or Elton John...everything. And leave nothing out. Just one continual spectrum to analyze- like a musical autobiography. He's all there.
Ok, that was long. Sorry. :wavey:
And Kurt Cobain?
As with Lennon, there's no real simple answer. Nirvana was one of the seminal breakthrough bands of the alternative rock movement well before Kurt's death. Their most popular and allegedly best song was "Smells Like Teen Spirit," from Nevermind, which was released in 1991, nearly three years before Kurt's death, and they were still very popular at the time he died. If he had lived, would they have remained popular and relevant? Would they have known when to call it quits? Or would they have tarnished their legacy by releasing a bunch of crap? We don't know, since they never got the chance.
So, short answer: Nirvana were already considered a very important band in 1994, but Kurt's death (and the circumstances surrounding it) ensured the immediate appropriation of their music as the symbol of the 90s alternative movement. That might not have happened to such an extent had Kurt lived.
Not me but he's pretty much been admitted into that collection of people by the famous "they".
Are you sure? McCartney's a big concert draw, but his records haven't sold that well for years, and he's been largely written off by a lot of critics (although that has changed a little bit with his new album).
jannieC
11-26-2005, 09:51 PM
I don't understand how anyone can not be familiar with his music. :shrug:
I don't understand how anyone can not be familiar with his music. :shrug:
True. :shocked:
I mean isn't Beatles music, like, the common language?
I think each of The Beatles were admitted to that catergory and it would have to be some quite dramatic turn-around for them to be disqualified.
I think we're just thinking of this concept in different ways. Certainly all four members of the Beatles have always been and will always be considered legendary... as members of the Beatles. As far their individual careers since then, though, there's definitely no legend guarantee there. As I mentioned, Paul has been written off many times over for foisting mediocre-or-worse love songs on the world for the past three decades. And I'm not sure anyone's really given a **** about Ringo since 1970.
And the same is true for Lennon. He got very mixed reviews throughout a lot of the 70s, and there was no guarantee he would always remain an iconic figure.
True. :shocked:
I mean isn't Beatles music, like, the common language?
I'm pretty sure BoBo just meant his solo work.
I'm pretty sure BoBo just meant his solo work.
I think BoBo should pick up John's "Working Class Hero: the Definitive Lennon" compilation. I am sure he will be able to recognize more than a few of those songs. :nod:
I'm thinking Bobo doesn't realize that you're like, one of the coolest people to look to for music recommendations. :)
J'taime :xoxo:
johndoe
11-27-2005, 01:44 AM
Nothing you can sing that isn't sung?
Wow. How did I miss that? lol
Oh Yoko...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176868,00.html
Yoko Has Her Way With Lennon's Record
Monday, November 28, 2005
By Roger Friedman
For a genius, Yoko Ono doesn’t seem very smart.
The anniversary edition of John Lennon’s hit 1974 album, "Walls and Bridges," has just come out — but with a lot of changes.
The principal difference is a new cover: Ono has tossed aside the original — a drawing by Lennon from when he was 11 years old — and replaced it with a Bob Gruen photograph of Lennon wearing four pairs of sunglasses that used to be in the album’s liner notes.
Of course, a Gruen photograph is always a good thing. His new coffee table book, “John Lennon: The New York Years,” is a must-have for any Beatle fan (it’s certainly more important than the recent bio that was published and is said to be full of inaccuracies).
But it was Lennon who selected his childhood drawing for that cover. How, one wonders, could Ono have conceived of making such a change?
There are plenty of other “updates” on the newly remastered “Walls and Bridges." Fans have noticed that Ono lists herself as “producer” of the reissue album, her name in all capital letters. The original credits read: “Produced and Arranged by John Lennon With the Plastic Ono Nuclear Band/Little Big Horns and the Philharmanic Orchestrange.”
Ono also has replaced the Apple Records label on the original disc with a version of a customized label used on the 1972 album "Sometime in New York City." That label, now adorning "Walls and Bridges," has two pictures of Lennon, two of Ono and one of them superimposed over each other in between the pairs to make one person.
“The difference,” one fan writes, “is that when they used this on 'Sometime in New York City,' John morphed into Yoko. Now Yoko becomes John!”
Insiders have pointed out the ridiculousness of all this Ono-izing of "Walls and Bridges" since Lennon wasn’t living with Ono when he made the album. He was with his girlfriend, May Pang, a fact that is thoroughly documented.
Fans have also noticed an audio change, as well. At the tail end of “Surprise, Surprise (Sweet Bird of Paradox),” a rocking shuffle Lennon wrote for Pang, there’s a new little bit of singing as the song trails off.
It sounds like Lennon, or maybe Ono herself, is chanting “Yo-ko” very softly in a falsetto after repeating the chorus, “I love, love her.” Now it seems like it’s Ono and not Pang he loves, which was not the case at that time. Shades of the old days when the Beatles added hidden words to their songs.
Of course, the main reason for Ono’s march to revisionist history is the upcoming Dec. 8-9 25th anniversary of Lennon’s murder. First came the ill-fated Broadway musical, which closed after a short run. Now the album has been altered.
"Walls and Bridges" was Lennon’s best-selling solo record released while he was alive. It contained two top-10 hits, “Whatever Gets You Thru the Night” and “No. 9 Dream.” Ironically, the latter features whispered vocals by Pang, something Ono could not tamper with unless she wanted a huge uproar. “No. 9 Dream” is one of Lennon’s most played songs to this day.
Nevertheless, "Walls and Bridges" remains an unusual and often extraordinary collection of songs that has been eclipsed over the years by “Imagine” and “Double Fantasy.”
Lennon experiments with Philly soul (“Bless You”), gives a nod to the two big stars of the day — Stevie Wonder (“What You Got”) and Elton John (“Old Dirt Road”) — and takes yet another nasty swipe at former pal Paul McCartney (“Steel and Glass”).
As for Ono, an article in yesterday’s Japan Times doesn’t help much to restore her image. Writer Philip Basor points out that she’s shilled for a number of companies by appearing in Japanese TV commercials that feature Lennon songs.
The worst, I should think, is for Gibraltar Life Insurance. Lennon and Ono were married in Gibraltar, Spain — a point made in the Beatles song “The Ballad of John and Yoko.” The Lennon song “Woman” plays in the Gibraltar ad.
In a couple of days, Ono will compound her problems when she releases a book called “Memories of John.” There are interviews with 73 different people, many of whom did not know Lennon.
There are no interviews with the ex-Beatles, their wives, Lennon’s first wife, Cynthia, or son, Julian. John Fogerty says in the book, “I never met John, but I always felt that I knew him.” Yikes! There are also statements from such unlikely contributors as the Bangles’ Vicki Petersen, Bono, Alicia Keys, Steve Earle, Jello Biafra and Carlos Santana.
I don’t get it. Ono is obviously a brilliant woman and has been a great mother. All of these things — the musical, the book, the reissued albums — gave her an opportunity to show her generosity, wisdom and unselfishness. She seems to have passed on them all and taken a road that Lennon himself, even though he liked to put people on, would not have approved of.
Ha ha. People never liked her, right? It's nice to see people stubbornly be who they really are and not change themselves just to please others. She should take on Beatles records next.
I don't think Yoko should change who she is just to please others. I think she should change who she is because who she is is a heinous, selfish bitch.
Last year she was all over Paul McCartney for changing the Beatles songwriting credits on his live DVD to "McCartney/Lennon" because she said it showed a lack of respect to John and their agreement. Then she goes and messes around with one of the guy's most personal albums to give herself more credit? Bitch is shameless.
SuzeQuze
11-28-2005, 04:33 PM
It sounds like John and Yoko were not together at the time of his death - is that correct?
It sounds like John and Yoko were not together at the time of his death - is that correct?
Nooooooooo. They had been estranged from each other for a while in the mid-70s, but they were very much back together at the time of his death. Double Fantasy was a team effort - it's one of those cozy, domestic "I gots my woman back and I'm happy as a pig in ****" albums. They were walking home together from that legendary Rolling Stone photo shoot with Annie Liebowitz when he was shot.
chiliD
11-28-2005, 04:53 PM
They were walking home together from that legendary Rolling Stone photo shoot with Annie Liebowitz when he was shot.
:eek: What fantasy version of the events have YOU been reading? :shrug:
They were getting out of a cab, returning from the recording studio after recording Yoko's "Walking On Thin Ice".
:eek: What fantasy version of the events have YOU been reading? :shrug:
They were getting out of a cab, returning from the recording studio after recording Yoko's "Walking On Thin Ice".
Was it? I had always thought it was the day of the Liebowitz shoot. Not sure where I read that. Or maybe I just got it confused in my head somehow. The Liebowitz shoot was sometime during that week, though, wasn't it?
jannieC
11-28-2005, 06:16 PM
Was it? I had always thought it was the day of the Liebowitz shoot. Not sure where I read that. Or maybe I just got it confused in my head somehow. The Liebowitz shoot was sometime during that week, though, wasn't it?
He was killed a couple of hours after the photo shoot (photo shoot earlier in the day), but he was either in a cab or a limo returning from the recording studio when he he got to his home and was shot. (not shot IN the cab or limo, I mean)
He was killed a couple of hours after the photo shoot (photo shoot earlier in the day), but he was either in a cab or a limo returning from the recording studio when he he got to his home and was shot. (not shot IN the cab or limo, I mean)
Well ****, then I wasn't that far off. The way chiliD reacted, I thought I'd somehow been duped and the Liebowitz photo shoot had taken place several millennia earlier in another dimension entirely.
Richard B
11-28-2005, 07:12 PM
Before I read everyone's thoughts...I want to say that John Lennon (my fav Beatle) was/is an amazing person, musically and humanly. He is missed.
rbs3676
11-28-2005, 07:18 PM
I was lying in my bed with the headphones on, listening to 99.5 KISS and they were going to play 2 "new" tracks from the FLEETWOOD MAC LIVE double CD that had either just been released or was going to be.
They were playing "Sara" when they cut the song short and the DJ wsa battling back tears and said that they had just received word that John Lennon had been shot and possibly had died. I was in shock. It was such an eerie feeling.
The next day in high school, of course, no one could talk about anything else.
John was truly beyond being one of "the greats" - he was/is in a class all of his own. Unique in every fashion.
rbs
jannieC
11-28-2005, 07:22 PM
Well ****, then I wasn't that far off. The way chiliD reacted, I thought I'd somehow been duped and the Liebowitz photo shoot had taken place several millennia earlier in another dimension entirely.
That's why I had your back. ;)
I don't always agree with things Yoko does.
For example...
After reading about how she structured the "Lennon" musical, I thought it sounded pretty bad, I don't like the way she treated Julian (and don't care either way how she was to Cynthia), I still think the "Acoustic" album was pointless, I can't stomach the baby products, or the high tops, and I think her (and Paul) both act like babies regarding all these little bickerings they have in the press at times (always, of course, over John).
But at the same time, I would hardly call her "heinous." I mean, Yoko is actually a very good woman. She's kind and extremely generous. She is a top humanitarian, and she still carries the same message she did way back then.
I like some of her music, but her voice is acquired taste- and almost intolerable on some recordings. I thinks she is quite over-indulgent in her musical catalog, and possesses not an iota of her husband's gifts, but then who can compete with that?
Anyway, basically, I think the press (and fans) like to blow every little thing into some huge debacle. John and Yoko were seperated in the early 70s for about 14 months or so...she set him up with their secretary, May Pang, who also wrote the book, "Loving John." While separated, John spent some time in New York and a little more time in California partying and hanging out with his guy friends...he got drunk a lot, made some damn good music (including everything on "Walls and Bridges") and then decided to clean up, go back to New York, and leave May Pang. Everything after that was just John, Yoko, and then Sean (j'adore), bread, business, yoga,business, tarot cards, business, macrobiotics, business, and later on, music. :shocked:
It was crazy. But that was their life. Can't pretend it to be anything else. I always analyze Yoko (and John) in the context of their life. It was weird and so "out there" that you have to expand the tools when trying to understand them, their life, and their love.
I don't always agree with things Yoko does.
For example...
After reading about how she structured the "Lennon" musical, I thought it sounded pretty bad, I don't like the way she treated Julian (and don't care either way how she was to Cynthia), I still think the "Acoustic" album was pointless, I can't stomach the baby products, or the high tops, and I think ahd (and Paul) both act like babies regarding all these little bickerings they have in the press at times (always, of course, over John).
But at the same time, I would hardly call her "heinous." I mean, Yoko is actually a very good woman. She's kind and extremely generous. She is a top humanitarian, and she still carries the same message she did way back then.
That's true. She's not heinous. She's just petty and frquently selfish, and though both are rather minor character flaws, they are both incredibly unflattering, and they go a long way to taint her image and any good things she does.
That's true. She's not heinous. She's just petty and frquently selfish, and though both are rather minor character flaws, they are both incredibly unflattering, and they go a long way to taint her image and any good things she does.
Agreed.:nod:
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