Diana Krall's Christmas Songs [Archive]

Brwn_eyes0511

11-01-2005, 09:46 PM

I'm just the opposite. Secualr Christmas songs are mostly cheesy...give me a well written spiritual christmas song anyday!!!

Tears are falling, hearts are breaking
How we need to hear from God
You've been promised, we've been waiting
Welcome Holy Child
Welcome Holy Child

Hope that you don't mind our manger
How I wish we would have known
But long awaited Holy Stranger
Make yourself at home
Please make yourself at home
Bring your peace into our violence
Bid our hungry souls be filled
World now breaking Heaven's silence
Welcome To Our World
Welcome To Our World

Fragile finger sent to heal us
Tender brow prepared for thorn
Tiny heart whose blood will save us
Unto us is born
Unto us is born
So wrap our injured flesh around You
Breathe our air and walk our sod
Rob our sin and make us holy
Perfect Son of God
Perfect Son of God
Welcome To Our World

dissention

11-01-2005, 09:49 PM

Does it have religious songs on it? I dig non-religious Christmas songs, but the ones about Jesus I can't stomach. :sorry:

No, thankfully. I love Diana, but I wouldn't buy an album of Jesus Christmas songs. It's got stuff like Jingle Bells, White Christmas, and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-01-2005, 09:50 PM

Jesus Christmas

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They kind of go hand in hand!

markolas

11-01-2005, 09:50 PM

No, thankfully. I love Diana, but I wouldn't buy an album of Jesus Christmas songs. It's got stuff like Jingle Bells, White Christmas, and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas.

Oh, that's lovely. :) I might have to pick that up. I have Ella Wishes You a Swinging Christmas...I just love it.

JazmenFlowers

11-01-2005, 09:54 PM

Oh, that's lovely. :) I might have to pick that up. I have Ella Wishes You a Swinging Christmas...I just love it.
oh.my.god - that sounds ultra fab. me wants it, me neeeds it

markolas

11-01-2005, 10:03 PM

oh.my.god - that sounds ultra fab. me wants it, me neeeds it

It's lovely. :)

Brwn_eyes0511

11-01-2005, 11:32 PM

Wow, I'm exactly the opposite. I only like the classical christmas songs, and only sung by choirs. I hate "new" Christmas music, I think it's abhorrent. White Christmas makes me vomit, Jingle Bell Rock makes me murder people, and...Walking in a Winter Wonderland is okay. I don't know how old it is, though.
And that "here comes santa claus, here comes santa claus right down santa claus lane" song makes me perform medical experiments on my pets.
And forget about "singers" putting their "own spin" on the songs. Ie, add new notes, sing it all different, wring it out - god, I hate that.
okay, hopefully I won't repeat this diatribe against non classical christmas music, but I can't promise anything.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said Amber...although I do like NEWER christmas songs...as long as they are well written. But, like you, I prefer the choir stuff! :nod:

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 06:36 AM

Wow, I'm exactly the opposite. I only like the classical christmas songs, and only sung by choirs. I hate "new" Christmas music, I think it's abhorrent. White Christmas makes me vomit, Jingle Bell Rock makes me murder people, and...Walking in a Winter Wonderland is okay. I don't know how old it is, though.
And that "here comes santa claus, here comes santa claus right down santa claus lane" song makes me perform medical experiments on my pets.

What about songs that are even newer than those? The real rockin' soulful stuff like "Merry Christmas Baby" and "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)"?

I don't care what none a y'all say, Run-DMC's "Christmas in Hollis" rules.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 06:37 AM

I'm just the opposite. Secualr Christmas songs are mostly cheesy...give me a well written spiritual christmas song anyday!!!

I'll take both. One Big Crosby album, please.

I even like "Melikalikimaka." Which I'm sure is not remotely how you spell it.

markolas

11-02-2005, 07:45 AM

And forget about "singers" putting their "own spin" on the songs. Ie, add new notes, sing it all different, wring it out - god, I hate that.

Oh, gosh...you must hate jazz, then. :laugh:

The religious songs just don't mean anything to me, seeing as how I'm not a Christian and all. It's like watching a Billy Graham special or something.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 07:56 AM

The religious songs just don't mean anything to me, seeing as how I'm not a Christian and all. It's like watching a Billy Graham special or something.

But you don't have to be Christian to enjoy religious Christmas music, any more than you have to believe in Welsh mythology to enjoy "Rhiannon." Yes, there are some Christmas hymns that have that Billy Graham preacher aspect, but I think a song like "Silent Night" is beautiful no matter what you believe about Jesus.

Unless it's Stevie and what's-his-face singing it, of course.

markolas

11-02-2005, 08:04 AM

But you don't have to be Christian to enjoy religious Christmas music, any more than you have to believe in Welsh mythology to enjoy "Rhiannon." Yes, there are some Christmas hymns that have that Billy Graham preacher aspect, but I think a song like "Silent Night" is beautiful no matter what you believe about Jesus.

There's just too much baggage for me. :sorry: The only way I can really deal with Christmas is to leave the religious stuff out of it entirely.

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 12:12 PM

I know it's awfully early to think about Christmas music, but if you're a fan of Diana, you must get this album. I can picture myself with a glass of wine, sitting by the fire listening to this great album. I never really like all of the songs on her albums but this is an exception.She's known for the smooth jazz genre isnt she?

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 12:25 PM

She's known for the smooth jazz genre isnt she?

I'm not especially familiar with her music, but Diana Krall is a bit better and more respectable than "smooth" jazz.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 12:26 PM

There's just too much baggage for me. :sorry: The only way I can really deal with Christmas is to leave the religious stuff out of it entirely.

But then it isn't even Christmas....

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 12:32 PM

I'm not especially familiar with her music, but Diana Krall is a bit better and more respectable than "smooth" jazz.Right. I just mentioned that because theres a radio station here in Minneapolis that plays some of her songs that lists itself as a smooth jazz station

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 12:36 PM

But then it isn't even Christmas....

Do you really want to go there, Brown Eyes? Do we need to have a little history lesson about how the Christians hijacked the winter solstice as a marketing ploy to win over the pagans? Or about how when Christmas celebrations were revived in Britain and the US in the mid-1800s, they were almost wholly secular?

Do you really have a problem with it if non-Christians want to use December 25th as a holiday to promote kindness, generosity and good will towards their fellow human beings?

markolas

11-02-2005, 12:41 PM

I'm not especially familiar with her music, but Diana Krall is a bit better and more respectable than "smooth" jazz.

She certainly is.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 12:41 PM

Do you really want to go there, Brown Eyes? Do we need to have a little history lesson about how the Christians hijacked the winter solstice as a marketing ploy to win over the pagans? Or about how when Christmas celebrations were revived in Britain and the US in the mid-1800s, they were almost wholly secular?

Do you really have a problem with it if non-Christians want to use December 25th as a holiday to promote kindness, generosity and good will towards their fellow human beings?

Of course not. I didn't mean to sound as if I was making that accusation. I'm fully aware of the history of the solstice celebration. However the feast day of CHRISTMAS is one chosen by the Catholic Church to celebrate the day of Christ's birth. I have no problem with non-Christians celebrating the national holiday. It just seems to me that they would call it something else. Why, if you don't believe in Christ, would you chose to celebrate Christmas?

If you’re looking to get into one of your attack Brandon modes and expect me to play along I'm not going to. I just was wondering why some secularists celebrated Christmas...it has always been something that has fascinated me.

markolas

11-02-2005, 12:44 PM

But then it isn't even Christmas....

Well...for a lot of people it's not a religious holiday at all, despite its origins. It's a nice time to celebrate being with people you care about (or in my case, people that you don't care about :lol: ). I couldn't care less about Jesus, frankly. :)

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 12:45 PM

. . . I just was wondering why some secularists celebrated Christmas...it has always been something that has fascinated me.

The answer is they do not. They celebrate something else on that day or they celebrate nothing at all. I do suppose, however, there are people who just for the hell of it and with no intent of recognizing Christ's Birthday, will give presents. For example, some of my Jewish friend's send me a holiday present and I send them one as well. Am I celebrating a Jewish seasonal holiday? Are they celebrating Christmas - No is the answer to both. We are just in the mood to give presents I guess :laugh:

But, and with all due respect, this line of reasoning from you fits in with your eveyone should be a Christian or is a second class citizen motif. I mean above you automatically assume people celebrated Christmas for the Christian holiday aspect of it. That indicates you see it only as that way or at least the promary way because as you pointed out like last week, America is a Christian nation and those not that way need to get over it :shrug:

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 12:49 PM

Of course not. I didn't mean to sound as if I was making that accusation. I'm fully aware of the history of the solstice celebration. However the feast day of CHRISTMAS is one chosen by the Catholic Church to celebrate the day of Christ's birth. I have no problem with non-Christians celebrating the national holiday. It just seems to me that they would call it something else. Why, if you don't believe in Christ, would you chose to celebrate Christmas?

Because the name of the national holiday is Christmas? And its public celebration stems from a time when religious and secular life weren't as estranged from each other as many folks like them to be today, meaning that the holiday is inextricably linked to myriad traditions both religious and secular?

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 12:49 PM

The answer is they do not. They celebrate something else on that day or they celebrate nothing at all. I do suppose, however, there are people who just for the hell of it and with no intent of recognizing Christ's Birthday, will give presents. For example, some of my Jewish friend's send me a holiday present and I send them one as well. Am I celebrating a Jewish seasonal holiday? Are they celebrating Christmas - No is the answer to both. We are just in the mood to give presents I guess :laugh:

But, and with all due respect, this line of reasoning from you fits in with your eveyone should be a Christian or is a second class citizen motif. I mean above you automatically assume people celebrated Christmas for the Christian holiday aspect of it. That indicates you see it only as that way or at least the promary way because as you pointed out like last week, America is a Christian nation and those not that way need to get over it :shrug:

I guess so...it just has always been fascinating to me. :shrug:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 12:51 PM

I couldn't care less about Jesus, frankly. :)

...But he cares about you! :nod: :) :woohoo:

Sorry, I don't want to sound preachy...:lol:

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 12:54 PM

...But he cares about you! :nod: :) :woohoo:

He sure doesn't show it. Never even sends a postcard, the bastard.

(Well he is!)

markolas

11-02-2005, 12:54 PM

...But he cares about you! :nod: :) :woohoo:

Sorry, I don't want to sound preachy...:lol:

It doesn't sound preachy, it just sounds trite. :D

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 12:55 PM

He sure doesn't show it. Never even sends a postcard, the bastard.

(Well he is!)If he cares about me, where the F**K is my new Ferrari!!!!!:rolleyes: :lol:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 12:57 PM

It doesn't sound preachy, it just sounds trite. :D

Sorry...It's just a force of habit when someone says they don't "care about Jesus"...that is simply my first reaction. It's just hard to not sound trite when, for me, the only thing that isn't meaningless IS Jesus!

SuzeQuze

11-02-2005, 01:02 PM

markolas

11-02-2005, 01:03 PM

Sorry...It's just a force of habit when someone says they don't "care about Jesus"...that is simply my first reaction. It's just hard to not sound trite when, for me, the only thing that isn't meaningless IS Jesus!

Whatever gets you through. :shrug:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:05 PM

Whatever gets you through. :shrug:

It's more than just what "gets me through" it's all that I am! :wavey:

Ok I promise I will stop now! I really don't want to come off as preachy...and I'm starting too! :lol:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:08 PM

It's more than just what "gets me through" it's all that I am! :wavey:

Ok I promise I will stop now! I really don't want to come off as preachy...and I'm starting too! :lol:

I think you should be what you want to be and if that is it, then great for you.

But, the real question is will you and your kind (far religious right) allow others to be who they want to be when it harms no one (consenting adults, etc. ) but conflicts with far right religious extremes?

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:08 PM

It's more than just what "gets me through" it's all that I am! :wavey:

Ok I promise I will stop now! I really don't want to come off as preachy...and I'm starting too! :lol:Can I have your #?;) :laugh:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:10 PM

I think you should be what you want to be and if that is it, then great for you.

But, the real question is will you and your kind (far religious right) allow others to be who they want to be when it harms no one (consenting adults, etc. ) but conflicts with far right religious extremes?

Woah buddy....where did that come from.

I think the fact that I like c*ck would sort of revoke my "far religous right" card. So you are going to have to consult someone else about these affairs now. I'm not the "nice little conservative" boy you think I am....

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:11 PM

Can I have your #?;) :laugh:

Why?......

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:11 PM

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:24 PM

Woah buddy....where did that come from.

I think the fact that I like c*ck would sort of revoke my "far religous right" card. So you are going to have to consult someone else about these affairs now. I'm not the "nice little conservative" boy you think I am....

Well, you consistently and as of I believe last night - refer to the far right's political views as your own when you used "We think" etc.

But, to be fair, do you now support the right to privacy in the Const.? Or, do you still support the like of Coulter, Delay, Frist, etc., who would have you in jail for practicing homosexuality, which they view as a disease.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 01:26 PM

chiliD

11-02-2005, 01:28 PM

I do suppose, however, there are people who just for the hell of it and with no intent of recognizing Christ's Birthday...

Well, considering that it has been proven that Jesus Of Nazareth was actually born in April, what exactly IS IT we're celebrating in December, anyway? :shrug: (he asked mostly rhetorically)

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:29 PM

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:31 PM

Well, considering that it has been proven that Jesus Of Nazareth was actually born in April, what exactly IS IT we're celebrating in December, anyway? :shrug: (he asked mostly rhetorically)

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - were you horrified by some of the goups mentioned in the 80's music thread :laugh:

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:33 PM

Why?......Oh, I was just messin with you Brandon. I think you got it...;)

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:35 PM

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - were you horrified by some of the goups mentioned in the 80's music thread :laugh:Oh god I sure was.....:eek:

chiliD

11-02-2005, 01:43 PM

I'm not especially familiar with her music, but Diana Krall is a bit better and more respectable than "smooth" jazz.

Well, considering that she IS "Mrs. Elvis Costello". :shrug:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:45 PM

Well, considering that it has been proven that Jesus Of Nazareth was actually born in April, what exactly IS IT we're celebrating in December, anyway? :shrug: (he asked mostly rhetorically)

It was just a random date chosen by the Chruch! They are well aware that Jesus wasn't born on that exact date...

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:47 PM

Well, you consistently and as of I believe last night - refer to the far right's political views as your own when you used "We think" etc.

But, to be fair, do you now support the right to privacy in the Const.? Or, do you still support the like of Coulter, Delay, Frist, etc., who would have you in jail for practicing homosexuality, which they view as a disease.

First of all I know that Ann doesn't think of gayness being a "disease"...I can't speak for the others though...

Of course I'm not going to support anything that would put me in jail for having sex! You still have no idea how dirty my mind can be...hehe

That said, it still doesn't mean that I can't have opinions about other topics that lean slightly to the right...

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:47 PM

It was just a random date chosen by the Chruch! They are well aware that Jesus wasn't born on that exact date...And why did they choose that?I mean I cant believe they played pin the tail on the donkey to figure out how to pick that date?

dissention

11-02-2005, 01:47 PM

They are well aware...

...of pretty much nothing by my estimation.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:47 PM

It was just a random date chosen by the Chruch! They are well aware that Jesus wasn't born on that exact date...

Random :laugh: :laugh:

When has the RCC ever done anything at random :laugh:

Again, they chose it to woo the pagan and pastoral religions into the fold, which at that time was not as large or powerful as it would later become. It was calculated and most certainly not random.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:50 PM

Random :laugh: :laugh:

When has the RCC ever done anything at random :laugh:

Again, they chose it to woo the pagan and pastoral religions into the fold, which at that time was not as large or powerful as it would later become. It was calculated and most certainly not random.

Ok so they chose that date on purpose. It still doesn't lessen the meaning. I think all Christians are pretty well aware that Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. As much as others would like to label Christians idiots...we aren't.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:51 PM

...of pretty much nothing by my estimation.

Just cause you were scared of Jesus on the cross and had a bad experience....:lol:

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:52 PM

no, sometimes ignorant, but not idiots

Can't that be said of the entire human race?

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 01:53 PM

Can't that be said of the entire human race?Yeah I suppose. We're all guilty of it at times, myself included.:lol:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:54 PM

First of all I know that Ann doesn't think of gayness being a "disease"...I can't speak for the others though...

Of course I'm not going to support anything that would put me in jail for having sex! You still have no idea how dirty my mind can be...hehe

That said, it still doesn't mean that I can't have opinions about other topics that lean slightly to the right...

Well, then you make no sense if you are talking about about any policy of the right save maybe less taxes and limited spending, which the current right does not do in application.

Other than that, the right is all about establish a theocracy in the US. Otherwise, why would they care what hetero or homosexuals do behind closed doors. Remember, in Bowers v. Harwick ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowers_v._Hardwick ) , the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a Georgia sodomy law that criminalized oral and anal sex in private between consenting adults regardless of their sexuality. The far right would like that law back in place, which would mean no hetero or homo head - as if any of them ever abided by that in the first place.

So, let's hear your position on the right to privacy and how it differs from the ones you refer to as "WE" who want to erradicate it.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:57 PM

Ok so they chose that date on purpose. It still doesn't lessen the meaning. I think all Christians are pretty well aware that Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. As much as others would like to label Christians idiots...we aren't.

No, it does not lessen the meaning for those with blind faith.

But, that does not have anything to do with why they chose that date, which was to make it easier for those without that faith to adhere to the Christian celebration. From that point of view, the actual celebration of Christ's birthday is diluted. But, over time, their strategy worked and the pagan religions are mostly forgotten and villified - and incorrectly so IMO.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 01:57 PM

Well, then you make no sense if you are talking about about any policy of the right save maybe less taxes and limited spending, which the current right does not do in application.

Other than that, the right is all about establish a theocracy in the US. Otherwise, why would they care what hetero or homosexuals do behind closed doors. Remember, in Bowers v. Harwick ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowers_v._Hardwick ) , the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a Georgia sodomy law that criminalized oral and anal sex in private between consenting adults regardless of their sexuality. The far right would like that law back in place, which would mean no hetero or homo head - as if any of them ever abided by that in the first place.

So, let's hear your position on the right to privacy and how it differs from the ones you refer to as "WE" who want to erradicate it.

Why are you pushing this so much Jason? I think I have already made my case for wanting to step away from politics right now to better understand who I am! Why must you continue this crusade? I have never been, nor will I ever be a liberal...if that is your goal then you might as well forget it. I'm really trying to concentrate on more important things in my life right now and not these pathetic wasteful debates.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 01:58 PM

First of all I know that Ann doesn't think of gayness. . . .

Perhaps. But, she thinks the court's should not have struck down the laws wanting to make you a criminal for having gay sex and/or hetero or homo fellation and anal sex. How can you support that?

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 02:00 PM

Why are you pushing this so much Jason? I think I have already made my case for wanting to step away from politics right now to better understand who I am! Why must you continue this crusade? I have never been, nor will I ever be a liberal...if that is your goal then you might as well forget it. I'm really trying to concentrate on more important things in my life right now and not these pathetic wasteful debates.

So, let me get this straight, you can make political and religious comments all you want. When someone calls you on them, you will take offense. Nice :laugh:

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:00 PM

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 02:02 PM

It was just a random date chosen by the Chruch!

I thought you said you were well aware of the history of winter solstice celebrations? There was nothing at all random about the date chosen for Christmas.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:02 PM

Perhaps. But, she thinks the court's should not have struck down the laws wanting to make you a criminal for having gay sex and/or hetero or homo fellation and anal sex. How can you support that?

Jason, I'm asking you to please stop. And I'm not joking or trying to be light hearted about it. I'm being dead serious because you appear to be on some sort of crusade to "convert" the new gay boy. It is very hateful and I have to say typical of what I have read about and seen of the left who viciously attack any minority (be it gay, black, hispanic) who chooses to be a Republican. That said...I never said I was going to remain a Republican...what I did say was that I will never be a Democrat.

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:02 PM

Just cause you were scared of Jesus on the cross and had a bad experience....:lol:

No, it's because I can recognize bull**** when it's presented to me.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:03 PM

I thought you said you were well aware of the history of winter solstice celebrations? There was nothing at all random about the date chosen for Christmas.

You are late, this was already addressed.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:04 PM

No, it's because I can recognize bull**** when it's presented to me.

Sorry you feel that way...:shrug:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:05 PM

So, let me get this straight, you can make political and religious comments all you want. When someone calls you on them, you will take offense. Nice :laugh:

No that is not what I'm saying. Nothing that you brought up was even about Christmas or the religious holiday. You brought up a subject I don't think I have even commented on with the right to privacy.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 02:05 PM

Ok so they chose that date on purpose. It still doesn't lessen the meaning.

Great, nor it lessen the secular meaning of the holiday that people celebrate.

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:06 PM

Sorry you feel that way...:shrug:

Why are you sorry?

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:06 PM

Why are you sorry?like that song says, I'm sorry, sooo sorry:laugh:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:08 PM

Why are you sorry?

I don't know. I don't mean it in a negative way like you are any less because you aren't a believer...Hope it didn't seem that way.

I guess what I meant is that I feel sorry for anyone who has never known of or experienced the love of God.

It wasn't a judgmental thing...sorry if it sounded that way.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 02:09 PM

Jason, I'm asking you to please stop. And I'm not joking or trying to be light hearted about it. I'm being dead serious because you appear to be on some sort of crusade to "convert" the new gay boy. It is very hateful and I have to say typical of what I have read about and seen of the left who viciously attack any minority (be it gay, black, hispanic) who chooses to be a Republican. That said...I never said I was going to remain a Republican...what I did say was that I will never be a Democrat.

You are so ethnocentric and naive - you think everything is about you and your budding yearnings for the same sex. Let me be clear, I do not care what you are in your sexuality, though I did in the joking context of a conversion try and give true and meaningful words of advice earlier because you seemed genuine and interested.

Here is the deal, if you do not want people to respond to your assinine and factually unsupported views of politics and the world, then do not participate. But, no one is going to give you a free pass because you just realized you are gay.

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:10 PM

You are so ethnocentric and naive - you think everything is about you and your budding yearnings for the same sex. Let me be clear, I do not care what you are in your sexuality, though I did in the joking context of a conversion try and give words of advice earlier because you seemed genuine and interested.

Here is the deal, if you do not want people to respond to your assinine and factually unsupported views of politics and the world, then do not participate. But, no one is going to give you a free pass because you just realized you are gay.Wow,that was a helluva spanking....:laugh:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:12 PM

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:14 PM

I don't expect a free pass Jason; that is not what I asked for. I think I already made myself clear with my staying out of politics...but yet we seem to be in round 10 of our usual routine. This is just a never ending routine that leads to nothing but hurt feelings...Can't well all f***ing get along dammit!!!:lol:

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:16 PM

I guess what I meant is that I feel sorry for anyone who has never known of or experienced the love of God.

God is man-made. The only thing for me to experience is the fairy tale of God through organized religion and I'll gladly pass on that.

How have you experienced the "love of God"? I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm asking you in all seriousness.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:20 PM

God is man-made. The only thing for me to experience is the fairy tale of God through organized religion and I'll gladly pass on that.

How have you experienced the "love of God"? I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm asking you in all seriousness.

I don't really think it is something I can verbally express, especially on the interent, without you thinking I sound like an idiot. :o

Without being too cheesy...Sara says it so much better then I can...

"I would like to share with you what makes me complete. I don't claim to have found the Truth, but I know it has found me. . the only thing that isn't meaningless to me is Jesus Christ and and way he set me free. This is all that I have. This is all that I am"

Conversations

You asked for a serious response...and I guess I'm blowing it huh?

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:26 PM

I don't really think it is something I can verbally express, especially on the interent, without you thinking I sound like an idiot. :o

Without being too cheesy...Sara says it so much better then I can...

You asked for a serious response...and I guess I'm blowing it huh?You know what Brandon, whatever god or whomever you choose to believe in is a personal thing for you. I could understand why it would be difficult to express it.

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:26 PM

I don't really think it is something I can verbally express, especially on the interent, without you thinking I sound like an idiot. :o

Without being too cheesy...Sara says it so much better then I can...

You asked for a serious response...and I guess I'm blowing it huh?

I just don't comprehend such a thing. Sounds to me as if she's experiencing nothing but her own faith in and love for "God," not a kind of love that is reciprocated by "God" for her to experience in any way. But isn't she talking about Jesus Christ? I don't believe in him, either.

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:28 PM

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 02:30 PM

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:31 PM

I just don't comprehend such a thing. Sounds to me as if she's experiencing nothing but her own faith in and love for "God," not a kind of love that is reciprocated by "God" for her to experience in any way. But isn't she talking about Jesus Christ? I don't believe in him, either.

Actually that song was inspired by a conversation she had with a co-worker (when she used to be a HS teacher) when he unexpectedly asked her what she believed in. And she just hit him with the big theology that she remembered for some class she had years ago. When she went home she felt like she had just really blew it and the entire thing was a flop...a missed opportunity to explain personally what she believes. So she sat down at the piano and wrote "Conversations"...

So it really is a personal spiritual experience. I guess you are asking more what does GOD do for us...that is a hard one to explain too...A simple and basic response for me would be the fact that I am able to get out of bed every morning and enjoy another day...

Once you experience it, and sit down and take it all in...i just MATTERS!

Show me the love that never fails
The compassion and attention
Midst confusion and dissention
Like small ramparts for the soul
How it matters

Like a single cup of water
How it matters

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:34 PM

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:36 PM

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 02:37 PM

in my experience, people get so wrapped up in the whole religion thing that they see everything that way. imo, most christian opinions are so far-fetched and full of BS that I tend to giggle. yet, they find a way to back it up with a "story" from the Bible - walking hypocrites, if you ask me

I tend to agree with you. I think people have their Faith (which I think is mostly a good thing) - but organized religion uses that good Faith as a tool to control the masses. So, I think that is where the problem is. And, you are so correct in noting the hypocrisy. How many of the Pentacostal/Evangelicals out there preach hate against gays and adulterers on Sunday and are not practicing what they preach on Sunday night. Then, it is the same thing with far right conservative politicians. I mean they took us to war in Iraq and lied to do so. Then, when anyone questioned that war, they made up lies to smear them. How is that in any way Christian? So, for me, other than going to my local church to hear the music (which is gorgeous) - I have little use for organized religion, which is not the same as my use for God.

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 02:37 PM

But what about those who truly do believe in the love of Jesus Christ and living their life as he lived his? I understand what you mean about getting wrapped up in "religion" it is very easy to do that...
I'd say they live their life as they "believed" or want to believe he lived his; I tend to think there's a lot the Bible leaves out, but that's just me. It's a great thought to want to and try to live your life free of sin (however you define that), but I don't feel it's possible and I take issue with degree of sin as well. That's why I am confident in my belief that I strive to be as kind and generous as I can be and never hurt anyone else, that's my ultimate goal as far as my "religion" goes.

But, to be clear, if people live their life the way they think Jesus did, then that's a great way to attempt to live, but holding yourself up to the standard of someone written about in such high regard only sets you up for failure. He was written as perfection, no one is perfect. Therein lies the problem, IMO.

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:39 PM

Actually that song was inspired by a conversation she had with a co-worker (when she used to be a HS teacher) when he unexpectedly asked her what she believed in. And she just hit him with the big theology that she remembered for some class she had years ago. When she went home she felt like she had just really blew it and the entire thing was a flop...a missed opportunity to explain personally what she believes. So she sat down at the piano and wrote "Conversations"...

It's still a flop, I don't know what she's trying to say. Possibly because I'm incapable of wrapping my brain around the fact that people put faith in such an intangible thing as "God." Possibly because I don't see the attraction.

So it really is a personal spiritual experience. I guess you are asking more what does GOD do for us...that is a hard one to explain too...A simple and basic response for me would be the fact that I am able to get out of bed every morning and enjoy another day...

But, to some degree, don't you feel that you've been conditioned to feel that way? Would you not be able to get out of bed each day to enjoy another day if you had never been "taught" about God and Jesus Christ, or if you had simply rejected them upon their presentation to you?

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:39 PM

I tend to agree with you. I think people have their Faith (which I think is mostly a good thing) - but organized religion uses that good Faith as a tool to control the masses. So, I think that is where the problem is. And, you are so correct in noting the hypocrisy. How many of the Pentacostal/Evangelicals out there preach hate against gays and adulterers on Sunday and are not practicing what they preach on Sunday night. Then, it is the same thing with far right conservative politicians. I mean they took us to war in Iraq and lied to do so. Then, when anyone questioned that war, they made up lies to smear them. How is that in any way Christian? So, for me, other than going to my local church to hear the music (which is gorgeous) - I have little use for organized religion, which is not the same as my use for God.There you go. right on

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 02:39 PM

But what about those who truly do believe in the love of Jesus Christ and living their life as he lived his? I understand what you mean about getting wrapped up in "religion" it is very easy to do that...

But, that is an academic argument. I know very few people "who truly do believe in the love of Jesus Christ and living their life as he lived his" - I do, however, know lots who want others to live their life like his and will leave no stone unturned to manipulate them into doing so, which includes using the full weight of the law to achieve that end. That is where people have huge issues with religion. It is not an attack on personal Faith. It is an attack on the latter, which I submit almost every Christian I know does a la gay marriage.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:39 PM

I'd say they live their life as they "believed" or want to believe he lived his; I tend to think there's a lot the Bible leaves out, but that's just me. It's a great thought to want to and try to live your life free of sin (however you define that), but I don't feel it's possible and I take issue with degree of sin as well. That's why I am confident in my belief that I strive to be as kind and generous as I can be and never hurt anyone else, that's my ultimate goal as far as my "religion" goes.

Well I don't think there is any Christian who believes that we can obtain a life without sin...that is impossible.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:40 PM

But, that is an academic argument. I know very few people "who truly do believe in the love of Jesus Christ and living their life as he lived his" - I do, however, know lots who want others to live their life like his and will leave no stone unturned to manipulate them into doing so, which includes using the full weight of the law to achieve that end. That is where people have huge issues with religion. It is not an attack on personal Faith. It is an attack on the latter.

And that is respectable...I understand where you are coming from. :nod:

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 02:40 PM

So it really is a personal spiritual experience. I guess you are asking more what does GOD do for us...that is a hard one to explain too...A simple and basic response for me would be the fact that I am able to get out of bed every morning and enjoy another day...

As someone else said elsewhere in this thread, whatever gets you through the night. But no need to feel sorry for those who can get out of bed and enjoy the day on their own.

Or did you mean that in a more literal creation way?

DavidMn

11-02-2005, 02:41 PM

And that is respectable...I understand where you are coming from. :nod:HEY HEY HEY!!!!! we cant have you people agree on things now!!!!:lol:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:46 PM

It's still a flop, I don't know what she's trying to say. Possibly because I'm incapable of wrapping my brain around the fact that people put faith in such an intangible thing as "God." Possibly because I don't see the attraction.

But, to some degree, don't you feel that you've been conditioned to feel that way? Would you not be able to get out of bed each day to enjoy another day if you had never been "taught" about God and Jesus Christ, or if you had simply rejected them upon their presentation to you?

Yes I suppose that is true. But "reject" them in substitution for what exactly?

I suppose the ultimate question is boiled down to...Are we the chance result of some great accident, or do we have a purpose here? Maybe this earth was made for us. Maybe that is selfish, but maybe there is a loving God.

We are given the freedom to except or reject whatever we choose. I personally think that that is part of the call. God wants us to willingly let him be a part of our lives.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:47 PM

As someone else said elsewhere in this thread, whatever gets you through the night. But no need to feel sorry for those who can get out of bed and enjoy the day on their own.

Or did you mean that in a more literal creation way?

I was just trying to speak from the heart. :shrug:

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 02:51 PM

Yes I suppose that is true. But "reject" them in substitution for what exactly?

I suppose the ultimate question is boiled down to...Are we the chance result of some great accident, or do we have a purpose here? Maybe this earth was made for us. Maybe that is selfish, but maybe there is a loving God.

We are given the freedom to except or reject whatever we choose. I personally think that that is part of the call. God wants us to willingly let him be a part of our lives.
see, this is another thing I take issue with. God wants us to be willing to let him into our hearts, blah blah blah...what are we? some damn lab experiment...he plops us down here and can't control Adam and Eve and things go to ****, there's lust and hate and violence, but at the end of the day he just wants to be in our hearts and for us to love him our entire life and serve him so we can make it to heaven...wtf?

oh yeah, and if you happen to love someone of the same sex or don't exactly believe some things in the Bible, you'll burn for eternity in hell...

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 02:52 PM

. . . We are given the freedom to except or reject whatever we choose . . . .

But, that exact position is not followed by the far religious right. They want to take away that choice and make people participate in Christianity as part of the laws of this nation. I realize this is political, but the two go hand in hand these days and to discuss one, you pretty much have to include the other. In other words, while you may think we are given the freedom to except or reject whatever we choose, the real world applicaiton is not that :shrug: This is why people like me, and apparently you if you truly believe it is a choice, see through the rhetoric from the religious conservatives in this country. I am not trying to be antagonstic. I am trying to show you that your Faith has nothing to do with being a conservative these days.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:54 PM

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 02:54 PM

It's a great thought to want to and try to live your life free of sin (however you define that), but I don't feel it's possible

Well yes, that's more or less the crux of Christianity.

But, to be clear, if people live their life the way they think Jesus did, then that's a great way to attempt to live, but holding yourself up to the standard of someone written about in such high regard only sets you up for failure. He was written as perfection, no one is perfect. Therein lies the problem, IMO.

Again, also kind of the point for Christians. Every Christian who actually follows his own theology know that he is a failure in this regard, because it is impossible to live without sinning. But the whole point is that God loves you anyway.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:55 PM

But, that exact position is not followed by the far religious right. They want to take away that choice and make people participate in Christianity as part of the laws of this nation. I realize this is political, but the two go hand in hand these days and to discuss one, you pretty much have to include the other. In other words, while you may think we are given the freedom to except or reject whatever we choose, the real world applicaiton is not that :shrug: This is why people like me, and apparently you if you truly believe it is a choice, see through the rhetoric from the religious conservatives in this country. I am not trying to be antagonstic. I am trying to show you that your Faith has nothing to do with being a conservative these days.

You are trying too hard Jason. Why are you even bringing politics into this! I don't want anything to do with that right now...

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:56 PM

Yes I suppose that is true. But "reject" them in substitution for what exactly?

In substitution for nothing. Why do humans possess the pathological need to believe in a higher power?

We are given the freedom to except or reject whatever we choose. I personally think that that is part of the call. God wants us to willingly let him be a part of our lives.

I understand that you believe that, but since "God" has never manifested himself, how do any of the believers out there know what he wants? Did Jesus say so? And if he did, isn't it faith that also propels the belief in Jesus? With all of the glaring hypocrisies and contradictions in the Bible, how can it be relied upon for much of anything?

Point being that none of these beliefs have any tangibility to them and are simply proffered by organized religion and the Bible as things that just require your faith. Whether or not one agrees with me, I've always considered the belief in God and Jesus Christ to be very much like the childhood belief in Santa Claus. Children are told from early on that Santa Claus brings presents for them on Christmas, and they believe it.

ryan8472

11-02-2005, 02:56 PM

Weeeelllll...back to the original topic... :laugh:

I can't stand Christmas music. Any kind. I just hate listening to it. :shrug:

I'm not festive, OK?! :laugh:

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 02:57 PM

Yes I suppose that is true. But "reject" them in substitution for what exactly?

Nothing.

(Did you know that your posts have to be at least ten characters long? I wasn't allowed to just post "Nothing.")

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 02:58 PM

Diana's cd sure did put me in a good mood this morning tho!

dissention

11-02-2005, 02:59 PM

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 02:59 PM

I can understand that. And when looked at that way I see where a sense of anger can come from. It goes beyond any bible story or what you have been taught. The heart of believing is having that safety net. The one who, you know at the end of the day will not let you down. The one who created you and loves as your own unique person. I don't have any problem with people who choose not to believe. I am just always puzzled why they fight so HARD not to believe.
believe me honey, I tried hard for a long time TO believe in everything I had read and heard and was "supposed" to believe.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 02:59 PM

In substitution for nothing. Why do humans possess the pathological need to believe in a higher power?

I understand that you believe that, but since "God" has never manifested himself, how do any of the believers out there know what he wants? Did Jesus say so? And if he did, isn't it faith that also propels the belief in Jesus? With all of the glaring hypocrisies and contradictions in the Bible, how can it be relied upon for much of anything?

Point being that none of these beliefs have any tangibility to them and are simply proffered by organized religion and the Bible as things that just require your faith. Whether or not one agrees with me, I've always considered the belief in God and Jesus Christ to be very much like the childhood belief in Santa Claus. Children are told from early on that Santa Claus brings presents for them on Christmas, and they believe it.

I understand where you are coming from.

So I suppose there really isn't anything left to say. I just personally choose to believe that I am not the result of some chance accident.

GODDESS6

11-02-2005, 03:00 PM

Weeeelllll...back to the original topic... :laugh:

I can't stand Christmas music. Any kind. I just hate listening to it. :shrug:

I'm not festive, OK?! :laugh:

bless you:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo: i was thinking the same thing!!!~ & i love christmas music, but the funny stuff like "grandma got run over by a reindeer" & "rudolph" stuff like that, hey i have a 6yr old & i know soon we will be listening to it constantly as santa is lurking~:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:01 PM

You are trying too hard Jason. Why are you even bringing politics into this! I don't want anything to do with that right now...

Because you imply with your altruistic beliefs that all religious people are like you say you are. That is not the case and I think it is important to note that. Also, my noting that has nothing to do with what you may believe. I am just noting that in the real world, few people believe that religion ought to be a total choice.

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 03:01 PM

I understand where you are coming from.

So I suppose there really isn't anything left to say. I just personally choose to believe that I am not the result of some chance accident.
but what if you are? :cool:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:01 PM

Nothing.

(Did you know that your posts have to be at least ten characters long? I wasn't allowed to just post "Nothing.")

But why choose to believe in nothing. In other words, if you don't even believe in a higher power, then why does it hurt to at least try to comprehend?

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:02 PM

Because you imply with your altruistic beliefs that all religious people are like you say you are. That is not the case and I think it is important to note that. Also, my noting that has nothing to do with what you may believe. I am just noting that in the real world, few people believe that religion out to be a total choice.

And that is very unfortunate...

Am I supposed to say anything else?

dissention

11-02-2005, 03:03 PM

I am just always puzzled why they fight so HARD not to believe.

Who "fights" not to believe in God? Either you do or you don't. There certainly aren't facts out there that one has to turn a blind eye to in order not to believe in God because there is no tangible evidence or a single fact that proves the existence of one.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:03 PM

. . . I don't have any problem with people who choose not to believe. I am just always puzzled why they fight so HARD not to believe.

See, that is not true. It is not true because just a week or so ago, you proudly exclaimed this is a Christian nation and I better get used to it. You exclaimed that in response to me saying that religion has no place in government. Have you changed your position on that?

BTW - me calling you out here is a legitimate response to your statement that you have no problem with people choosing not to believe in God.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:04 PM

but what if you are? :cool:

I would rather die and be disappointed, than think there was no God die and then be wrong.

If I'm wrong then I suppose I'll just rot away when I die.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:05 PM

And that is very unfortunate...

Am I supposed to say anything else?

Yes, answer my next post (above) telling you why what you say your beliefs are is untrue.

ryan8472

11-02-2005, 03:05 PM

bless you:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo: i was thinking the same thing!!!~ & i love christmas music, but the funny stuff like "grandma got run over by a reindeer" & "rudolph" stuff like that, hey i have a 6yr old & i know soon we will be listening to it constantly as santa is lurking~:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well he better not piss off Santa then. ;)

Once in 7th grade, they wanted my whole music class to go around singing Christmas carols. I was like "Yeah....you guys have fun with that. If you think I'm going to sing ****ty songs in random classrooms, you're mistaken." They didn't make me do it. :laugh:

I guess I'm just no fun around Christmas. Ya know, if you're the "Lets sing a be merry, y'all!" type. :p

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:06 PM

See, that is not true. It is not true because just a week or so ago, you proudly exclaimed this is a Christian nation and I better get used to it. You exclaimed that in response to me saying that religion has no place in government. Have you changed your position on that?

BTW - me calling you out here is a legitimate response to your statement that you have no problem with people choosing not to believe in God.

Just because I feel that essentially this is a Christian nation...doesn't mean I think that you should have the freedom to believe as you choose too...

GODDESS6

11-02-2005, 03:06 PM

let me just say the thought of you guys sitting whereever you are typing furiously over your beliefs is soo HAWT!!!~

dissention

11-02-2005, 03:07 PM

I understand where you are coming from.

So I suppose there really isn't anything left to say. I just personally choose to believe that I am not the result of some chance accident.

I have no problem with you believing that as long as your religious beliefs are not forced upon me via the Ten Commandments in courthouses, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and religious fundamentalists on the United States Supreme Court.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:07 PM

Just because I feel that essentially this is a Christian nation...doesn't mean I think that you should have the freedom to believe as you choose too...

Well, you do. Surely you must realize that the mere name "Christian Nation" implies you must be one to be part of it, which takes away the freeedom you are touting without basis. Can you not see that?

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:07 PM

Yes, answer my next post (above) telling you why what you say your beliefs are is untrue.

WHY JASON? I don't understand why you are so interested in what I believe. You can't stand me...you never have! Why is it so important? Just brush me off as a naive little boy and be done with it.

GODDESS6

11-02-2005, 03:08 PM

Well he better not piss off Santa then. ;)

Once in 7th grade, they wanted my whole music class to go around singing Christmas carols. I was like "Yeah....you guys have fun with that. If you think I'm going to sing ****ty songs in random classrooms, you're mistaken." They didn't make me do it. :laugh:

I guess I'm just no fun around Christmas. Ya know, if you're the "Lets sing a be merry, y'all!" type. :p
we used to carol in our neighborhood when i was a kid & people would give us money:nod: ~

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:08 PM

I have no problem with you believing that as long as your religious beliefs are not forced upon me via the Ten Commandments in courthouses, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and religious fundamentalists on the United States Supreme Court.

He just cannot go there. It is all part of the Christian Nation ideal he clings to and which he thinks he is a part. I say this factually and without derision.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:09 PM

Well, you do. Surely you must realize that the mere name "Christian Nation" implies you must be one to be part of it, which takes away the freeedom you are touting without basis. Can you not see that?

I can understand what you mean...

I don't know I really don't have an answer for you. :shrug:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:09 PM

we used to carol in our neighborhood when i was a kid & people would give us money:nod: ~

. . . to stop caroling :xoxo: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

(obvious levity here)

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 03:10 PM

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:10 PM

I have no problem with you believing that as long as your religious beliefs are not forced upon me via the Ten Commandments in courthouses, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and religious fundamentalists on the United States Supreme Court.

How is the Ten Commandments in a courthouse forcing you to believe anything? And I don't think you are forced to say the pledge either?

But I don't want to make this a political discussion...PLEASE! I'm trying to stay away from that.

GODDESS6

11-02-2005, 03:10 PM

. . . to stop caroling :xoxo: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

(obvious levity here)
omg, this was great & you're prolly right!!!!!!!!!!!:lol: :lol: ~

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 03:11 PM

let me just say the thought of you guys sitting whereever you are typing furiously over your beliefs is soo HAWT!!!~
HA!!! It kinda is, huh?

GODDESS6

11-02-2005, 03:12 PM

HA!!! It kinda is, huh?
it is i'm posta be wrking but can't leave~

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:13 PM

He just cannot go there. It is all part of the Christian Nation ideal he clings to and which he thinks he is a part. I say this factually and without derision.

You don't know anything about me Jason. You are proving to be an individual with some agenda out to "get that Brandon boy"...I can't say for sure because there is no way to tell your tone, but that is the way it seems...

If I am so uniformed then just let it go...

I am an idiot and I don't know anything...is that better? :shrug:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:13 PM

I can understand what you mean...

I don't know I really don't have an answer for you. :shrug:

Then stop saying you think everyone should have a choice when you actions belie the veracity of that statement. In other words, while you may on some level think it is all about personal choice, your actions in no way support that false thought.

You seemingly want to say things like that and then want everyone to go "ahhhh isn't that nice - he is so open minded" - I think you will find people are fonder of the truth than being mere placaters to some false notion you have. They will be this way because you have no right to tell me how to live my life if i am not hurting anyone.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:14 PM

omg, this was great & you're prolly right!!!!!!!!!!!:lol: :lol: ~

I was like I CANNOT RESIST :laugh: :laugh:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:15 PM

Then stop saying you think everyone should have a choice when you actions belie the veracity of that statement. In other words, while you may on some level think it is all about personal choice, your actions in no way support that false thought.

You seemingly want to say things like that and then want everyone to go "ahhhh isn't that nice - he is so open minded" - I think you will find people are fonder of the truth than being mere placaters to some false notion you have. They will be this way because you have no right to tell me how to live my life if i am not hurting anyone.

Jason, I'm not telling you how to live your life...

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:16 PM

You don't know anything about me Jason. You are proving to be an individual with some agenda out to "get that Brandon boy"...I can't say for sure because there is no way to tell your tone, but that is the way it seems...

If I am so uniformed then just let it go...

I am an idiot and I don't know anything...is that better? :shrug:

Again with the "I want to say anything I like and you better not call me out on it" cr*p that you know will not fly around here.

Again, I base all of my comments on your posts here, which requires no actual knowledge of your personal life.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 03:16 PM

In substitution for nothing. Why do humans possess the pathological need to believe in a higher power?

Oh boy. Now this thread is interesting. Unfortunately, I need to go and actually get some work done. You've got a couple of factors here:

First, before the term "science" actually meant anything, people often invented god/gods to explain how the world worked. Just basic physical phenomena. But going along with that, you also had people inventing gods to explain how the world worked on a more physical level. As Brandon mentioned, most people like to have a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning, an idea that life has a point and a goal to reach toward, and gods often provide that. Now, why many people can't seem to find that sense of meaning and purpose solely within themselves and instead must project it out to a "higher power"... well, I think that's a very long and complicated psychological study of culture over the past few thousand years.

But I think this "purpose" thing also ties into something else. As paradoxical as it may seem given the religion v. science dialectic that often exists, I think belief in god also satisies the human desire for logic and order in the world. Our brains like logic and order, and on some level, the idea that the universe simply exists doesn't satisfy that. The idea of god provides a mental order to the world for many people.

Now, if you ask me, those are two huge paradoxes:

1) You've got the egotistical idea that "I as a human being must have some kind of purpose beyond simply living and dying" coupled with the self-negating idea that "This purpose cannot exist within myself but rather must exist in some high power."

2) You've got the human tendency toward logic and order juxtaposed against science which somehow fails to provide that logic and order in a completely satisfying way (probably largely due to that desire for purpose expressed in #1).

All right, I really have other things I need to be doing. Everybody else, discuss!

GODDESS6

11-02-2005, 03:16 PM

well lovely boys, i have to go back to wrk for awhile:distress: , this was fun & have a great rest of the day!!!~:blob1: ~

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:19 PM

Again with the "I want to say anything I like and you better not call me out on it" cr*p that you know will not fly around here.

Again, I base all of my comments on your posts here, which requires no actual knowledge of your personal life.

I thought I already apologized for the stuff I had said in the past. I also said that I was confused and wanted to stay out of politics...So I apologize for what I have said...

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:21 PM

Jason, I'm not telling you how to live your life...

Of course you are and that you say you do not know how after all this time here is a farce :rolleyes:

Again, putting the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse and saying THIS IS THE LAW is forcing it down peoples' throats because the decalogue says I shall have no other gods above God and only two of them are the actual law.

Making people say "Under God" in the POA is forcing it down the throat and that is why it was put there in the first place and after the fact.

Making Federal and State benefits available only to heterosexual couples in one form of Christian marriage (one man and one woman) is forcing it down the throat. Why is it only good Christians get these benefits? Why are they not availble to non Christians or rather people who do not adhere to that limited version of marriage or whatever you want to call it?

There are many others, but those will do for now.

dissention

11-02-2005, 03:22 PM

How is the Ten Commandments in a courthouse forcing you to believe anything?

Why should my tax dollars go to supporting religious beliefs that I do not hold? Why should anyone's tax dollars be spent in such a manner? Is the idea of the separation of church and state lost on you?

And I don't think you are forced to say the pledge either?

Why was "God" added to it in the first place? Shouldn't a national pledge of allegiance to the United States of America be something that one can recite without having to pledge their belief in a God? Should someone be made to feel excluded because it includes the beliefs of religious types and completely thumbs it's nose at their beliefs?

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:22 PM

I thought I already apologized for the stuff I had said in the past. I also said that I was confused and wanted to stay out of politics...So I apologize for what I have said...

I refer only to the stuff you said this and last week. I need go no further back than that. Are you apologizing now for things said then as well as last Winter?

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 03:22 PM

But why choose to believe in nothing. In other words, if you don't even believe in a higher power, then why does it hurt to at least try to comprehend?

Do you recognize the speciousness of that argument? There's absolutely no logic there.

You ask, "Why choose to believe in nothing?" The question doesn't make any more sense than, "Why choose to believe in something?"

I personally don't see any evidence of that something, and I'm able to live a happy and fulfilling life without attempting to believe in that something. Why should I attempt to believe it if I don't? (And similarly, why should you attempt not to believe it if you do? Doesn't matter to me. I'm not frightened or saddened by the idea of ultimate purposeless in the universe. Believe whatever you want.)

Also, I don't have to "try to comprehend" your Catholicism. I do comprehend it. I went to Catholic school for thirteen years, I know my Catholic theology.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:22 PM

Of course you are and that you say you do not know how after all this time here is a farce :rolleyes:

Again, putting the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse and saying THIS IS THE LAW is forcing it down peoples' throats because the decalogue says I shall have no other gods above God and only two of them are the actual law.

Making people say "Under God" in the POA is forcing it down the throat and that is why it was put there in the first place and after the fact.

Making Federal and State benefits available only to heterosexual couples in one form of Christian marriage (one man and one woman) is forcing it down the throat. Why is it only good Christians get these benefits? Why are they not availble to non Christians or rather people who do not adhere to that limited version of marriage or whatever you want to call it?

There are many others, but those will do for now.

This is the trap I keep falling in...

I'm done Jason...with politics...and talking about it with you.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:24 PM

Do you recognize the speciousness of that argument? There's absolutely no logic there.

You ask, "Why choose to believe in nothing?" The question doesn't make any more sense than, "Why choose to believe in something?"

I personally don't see any evidence of that something, and I'm able to live a happy and fulfilling life without attempting to believe in that something. Why should I attempt to believe it if I don't? (And similarly, why should you attempt not to believe it if you do? Doesn't matter to me. I'm not frightened or saddened by the idea of ultimate purposeless in the universe. Believe whatever you want.)

Also, I don't have to "try to comprehend" your Catholicism. I do comprehend it. I went to Catholic school for thirteen years, I know my Catholic theology.

Maybe it isn't logic. IDK? It was just a thought.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 03:24 PM

I would rather die and be disappointed, than think there was no God die and then be wrong.

That's a pretty cynical and un-Christian way to go about things, don't you think?

You're revealing the fear that lies at the root of your belief.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:25 PM

I refer only to the stuff you said this and last week. I need go no further back than that. Are you apologizing now for things said then as well as last Winter?

Yes. Because I no longer want this pathetic bickering known as politics to be a part of my life. I made the mistake yesterday of trying to continue with it when I said I wouldn't...I guess it was just too hard to quit cold turkey.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:26 PM

This is the trap I keep falling in...

I'm done Jason...with politics...and talking about it with you.

Well, that is all good and well, but the minute you start your I think everyone should have a free choice about Faith crap - expect people to call you on it because that is not your position in application or in the real world.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:27 PM

That's a pretty cynical and un-Christian way to go about things, don't you think?

You're revealing the fear that lies at the root of your belief.

How so? It was just simply my observation...How I look at it...not how I think anyone else should.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:28 PM

Well, that is all good and well, but the minute you start your I think everyone should have a free choice about Faith crap - expect people to call you on it because that is not your position in application or in the real world.

Because you know exactly what my "real world" is all about...:rolleyes:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:30 PM

Yes. Because I no longer want this pathetic bickering known as politics to be a part of my life . . . .

I think you do not like arguing it here as opposed to elsewhere, which I suspect you still do, because here people actually disagree with you and support those disagreements with logic and fact and you have no coherent response grounded in logic and fact.

But, if you are actually aguing it nowhere anymore, I stand corrected.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:32 PM

I think you do not like arguing it here as opposed to elsewhere, which I suspect you still do, because here people actually disagree with you and support those disagreements with logic and fact and you have no coherent response grounded in logic and fact.

But, if you are actually aguing it nowhere anymore, I stand corrected.

I am not talking politics with ANYONE anymore. Of course you can choose to believe otherwise...

I don't even have any idea where I stand politically anymore, so I have no basis to argue from. Have you ever thought about the fact that I might not CARE anymore?!?! :shocked:

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 03:32 PM

Because you know exactly what my "real world" is all about...:rolleyes:

Once again with the ethnocentric it is all about me me me Brandon :laugh:

I am talking about the real world we all live in on a daily basis and that was clear from my post. As for your real world - I do not care about that nor will I or have I ever commented on that without making it very apparent I was doing so.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:34 PM

Once again with the ethnocentric it is all about me me me Brandon :laugh:

I am talking about the real world we all live in on a daily basis and that was clear from my post. As for your real world - I do not care about that nor will I or have I ever commented on that without making it very apparent I was doing so.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 03:37 PM

How so? It was just simply my observation...How I look at it...not how I think anyone else should.

You don't see the deep cynicism in saying that you believe in God... just in case? "I believe in God because if he does exist, I want to go to heaven and not hell." You don't see how such an argument reveals a relationship to God based on fear rather than the love you were talking about a few posts ago?

You're basically turning your believe in God into game theory, justifying your potential payoffs with potential losses. "Let's see, if I believe in God, and he exists, I get a big reward. Score. If I believe in God and he doesn't exist, I get nothing. Eh. Now if I don't believe in God, and he doesn't exist, I still get nothing. Eh, at least I'm not losing anything. But if I don't believe in God and he does exist, oh ****, I'm gonna get screwed! Better believe in him just to be safe!" That's a deeply cynical way to think about it, and I think any priest or Christian theologian would tell you that's wrong and un-Christian.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in God. I'm just saying that if you're claiming to be a Christian, you better drop that logic.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 03:39 PM

You don't see the deep cynicism in saying that you believe in God... just in case? "I believe in God because if he does exist, I want to go to heaven and not hell." You don't see how such an argument reveals a relationship to God based on fear rather than the love you were talking about a few posts ago?

You're basically turning your believe in God into game theory, justifying your potential payoffs with potential losses. "Let's see, if I believe in God, and he exists, I get a big reward. Score. If I believe in God and he doesn't exist, I get nothing. Eh. Now if I don't believe in God, and he doesn't exist, I still get nothing. Eh, at least I'm not losing anything. But if I don't believe in God and he does exist, oh ****, I'm gonna get screwed! Better believe in him just to be safe!" That's a deeply cynical way to think about it, and I think any priest or Christian theologian would tell you that's wrong and un-Christian.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in God. I'm just saying that if you're claiming to be a Christian, you better drop that logic.

Oh I see what your saying now...you misunderstood me. I don't believe in God just because "What if...?" I just think it is one way of looking at it.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 03:43 PM

Oh I see what your saying now...you misunderstood me. I don't believe in God just because "What if...?" I just think it is one way of looking at it.

No I get that. But if you're claiming to be Christian that is a wrong way of looking at it.

It's an evil and cynical (per?)version of Christian philosophy that has been used by missionaries to proselytize the hell out of unsuspecting people for centuries now.

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 03:44 PM

I am not talking politics with ANYONE anymore. Of course you can choose to believe otherwise...

I don't even have any idea where I stand politically anymore, so I have no basis to argue from. Have you ever thought about the fact that I might not CARE anymore?!?! :shocked:
Dude - you are fraying at the edges...

why all of a sudden would you not know where you stand or not care? I don't get it :shrug:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 04:04 PM

Dude - you are fraying at the edges...

why all of a sudden would you not know where you stand or not care? I don't get it :shrug:

I still have my opinions on specific issues like abortion...

But I’m done with POLITICS...why am I "fraying at the edges" because I have made a personal decision?

JazmenFlowers

11-02-2005, 04:10 PM

I still have my opinions on specific issues like abortion...

But I’m done with POLITICS...why am I "fraying at the edges" because I have made a personal decision?
aha...ok
_______________
just a phrase I was using, no need to read too much into it.

The Tower

11-02-2005, 04:16 PM

see, this is another thing I take issue with. God wants us to be willing to let him into our hearts, blah blah blah...what are we? some damn lab experiment...he plops us down here and can't control Adam and Eve and things go to ****, there's lust and hate and violence, but at the end of the day he just wants to be in our hearts and for us to love him our entire life and serve him so we can make it to heaven...wtf?

oh yeah, and if you happen to love someone of the same sex or don't exactly believe some things in the Bible, you'll burn for eternity in hell...
Yeah, it's all a subjective crock o' **** made up by some dudes 2000 to 3000 years ago that has a much validity as Greco-Roman mythology or the Heliopolians or any other "explanation for the unknown". In the end, organized religion is all about power and control anyways.

Oddly enough, all my favorite Christmas music is the religious stuff. I've been singing in choirs for sooooo long that you can't avoid it. Luckily, the music is gorgeous- I just ignore the "welcome baby jeebus" routine.

My favorites:

"Lo, How a Rose E're Blooming"
"O Come, O Come Emmanuel"
"We Three Kings of Orient Are"
"I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day" (John Marks version)
"Snow" (Lorena McKennitt)
"Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring"
"The Wexford Carol"

So many great winter solstice songs...

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 04:20 PM

Yeah, it's all a subjective crock o' **** made up by some dudes 2000 to 3000 years ago that has a much validity as Greco-Roman mythology or the Heliopolians or any other "explanation for the unknown". In the end, organized religion is all about power and control anyways.

Oddly enough, all my favorite Christmas music is the religious stuff. I've been singing in choirs for sooooo long that you can't avoid it. Luckily, the music is gorgeous- I just ignore the "welcome baby jeebus" routine.

My favorites:

"Lo, How a Rose E're Blooming"
"O Come, O Come Emmanuel"
"We Three Kings of Orient Are"
"I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day" (John Marks version)
"Snow" (Lorena McKennitt)
"Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring"
"The Wexford Carol"

So many great winter solstice songs...

I sort of see that as hypocritical. You call it a crock of ****...yet you will sing the songs which celebrate it. It would be different if it were "Jingle Bells" or "Walking in a Winter Wonderland"...but you are singing "O COME, O COME EMMANUEL"!!!

amber

11-02-2005, 04:29 PM

Oh boy. Now this thread is interesting. Unfortunately, I need to go and actually get some work done. You've got a couple of factors here:

First, before the term "science" actually meant anything, people often invented god/gods to explain how the world worked. Just basic physical phenomena. But going along with that, you also had people inventing gods to explain how the world worked on a more physical level. As Brandon mentioned, most people like to have a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning, an idea that life has a point and a goal to reach toward, and gods often provide that. Now, why many people can't seem to find that sense of meaning and purpose solely within themselves and instead must project it out to a "higher power"... well, I think that's a very long and complicated psychological study of culture over the past few thousand years.

But I think this "purpose" thing also ties into something else. As paradoxical as it may seem given the religion v. science dialectic that often exists, I think belief in god also satisies the human desire for logic and order in the world. Our brains like logic and order, and on some level, the idea that the universe simply exists doesn't satisfy that. The idea of god provides a mental order to the world for many people.

Now, if you ask me, those are two huge paradoxes:

1) You've got the egotistical idea that "I as a human being must have some kind of purpose beyond simply living and dying" coupled with the self-negating idea that "This purpose cannot exist within myself but rather must exist in some high power."

2) You've got the human tendency toward logic and order juxtaposed against science which somehow fails to provide that logic and order in a completely satisfying way (probably largely due to that desire for purpose expressed in #1).

All right, I really have other things I need to be doing. Everybody else, discuss!
This was a good post. That is an interesting dichotomy of the human psyche. While reading it, I also thought of something else. Does science really fail to provide logic and order that religion does provide? I would say no.

Although science cannot explain everything, IMO religion explains things in a much more non logical way. I think that is one draw of religion, and why it's easily clung to by many people. Because it doesn't require you to grasp abstract yet formulaic scientific concepts, or learn about complex physical and biological factors that are constantly operating in the universe.

Religion doesn't require you to learn about the extremely complex historical and sociological and environmental factors that brought us to where we are today.
Religion doesn't ask that you examine these complex factors in the present, either - without prejudice or bias - in order that we may be able to figure out all the actual factors that contribute to the nature of this situation we are all in called "Life" and "The World".

Religion mainly requires that you have faith in something you never see, and this thing, not you and everything else, are responsible for what happens in the world. And it requires only that you learn a set of rules which ARE based on judgement rather than unbiased openness to all knowledge, and the freedom to explore such knowlege.

I think most humans are nearly incapable at this time of accepting that kind of responsibility, and incapable of accepting their own true nature, and that they may actually be the ones controlling their lives, to a large degree responsible for their own destinies. It's hard to think that. It may be painful. Some people are also simply incapable of understanding things beyond a certain scope, a certain tangible scope, so all they really have is faith to explain things to themselves.

Religion really is the opiate of the masses Sadly, the bulk of "masses" have little capacity to function without an opiate, without that sense of importance and meaning, and many even lack the skill to conceptualize anything at all besides dogma that they have been raised with.
Anyway, great post, very thought provoking. :wavey:

The Tower

11-02-2005, 04:35 PM

I sort of see that as hypocritical. You call it a crock of ****...yet you will sing the songs which celebrate it. It would be different if it were "Jingle Bells" or "Walking in a Winter Wonderland"...but you are singing "O COME, O COME EMMANUEL"!!!
Not really. It's just singing songs for Christmas concerts and performances. When I was a member of high school and college vocal groups, we really didn't have the ability to say- "I'm not going to sing this song".

The religious songs that were commissioned by the church are now part of the choral songbook. You can't really avoid them if you want to get a degree in vocal music. For me, singing about three kings and jeebus is as grounded in reality as Puff the Magic Dragon. The immaculate conception/son of god routine is just as much fiction/mythology as Aphrodite spawning from the head of Zeus or Circe encountering Odysseus and turning his men into pigs.

dissention

11-02-2005, 04:47 PM

I sort of see that as hypocritical. You call it a crock of ****...yet you will sing the songs which celebrate it. It would be different if it were "Jingle Bells" or "Walking in a Winter Wonderland"...but you are singing "O COME, O COME EMMANUEL"!!!

I don't think it's hypocritical. One doesn't have to agree with an editorial to appareciate how well-written it is.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 04:47 PM

Not really. It's just singing songs for Christmas concerts and performances. When I was a member of high school and college vocal groups, we really didn't have the ability to say- "I'm not going to sing this song".

The religious songs that were commissioned by the church are now part of the choral songbook. You can't really avoid them if you want to get a degree in vocal music. For me, singing about three kings and jeebus is as grounded in reality as Puff the Magic Dragon. The immaculate conception/son of god routine is just as much fiction/mythology as Aphrodite spawning from the head of Zeus or Circe encountering Odysseus and turning his men into pigs.

Then why sing the songs? We didn't have to sing spiritual songs in chorus...if we objected then we were excused from singing it. If you are going to profess you don't believe in something, then don't disrespect others by singing it as if you did believe it.

and btw...the immaculate conception has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with Mary! :)

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 04:51 PM

I don't think it's hypocritical. One doesn't have to agree with an editorial to appareciate how well-written it is.

Well I agree with that. But don't go around "singing" the editorials praises...

dissention

11-02-2005, 04:55 PM

I think most humans are nearly incapable at this time of accepting that kind of responsibility, and incapable of accepting their own true nature, and that they may actually be the ones controlling their lives, to a large degree responsible for their own destinies. It's hard to think that. It may be painful. Some people are also simply incapable of understanding things beyond a certain scope, a certain tangible scope, so all they really have is faith to explain things to themselves.

Marvelously put. I've always thought that most people cling to their faith and religion, which is really nothing but organized superstition, out of fear. Fear of not having something to point to that would explain things for them. They need a reason for what goes on in the world and "God," for them, is that reason. When they can point to "God" as the reason for why things happen and why things are, it gives them comfort. Like you said, it's much easier to put faith in an intangible "God" instead of actually looking at things from a perspective where logical reasoning plays a more prominent role.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 04:57 PM

The Tower

11-02-2005, 04:57 PM

Then why sing the songs? We didn't have to sing spiritual songs in chorus...if we objected then we were excused from singing it.
I was in class. I was in a degree program in college. The conductors come up with the program and the singers sing the songs. It doesn't matter if you're hindu, buddhist, christian, muslim, atheist- you're given a part and you sing the songs. A very large number of classical choral works were commissioned by the church. Those works are performed sometimes for Xmas occasions, however, they are more often performed as a showcase of the work itself. Singing the songs has more to do with the musical work of the composer than the (hired hand paid for) lyrics assigned to the melodies and voicings.

If you are going to profess you don't believe in something, then don't disrespect others by singing it as if you did believe it.
Another crock. As if people requested to perform a specific piece of music has anything to do with a direct commitment to the content of the work.

and btw...the immaculate conception has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with Mary! :)
The immaculate conception is another crock. Jeebus/mary, ares/hera, it's all pounds, shillings and pence to me.

The Tower

11-02-2005, 04:59 PM

But is it really illogical to think that I am more than just a universal accident.
The only people who use the term "universal accident" are fundies who are purposefully misinterpreting science in order to discredit it.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:00 PM

The only people who use the term "universal accident" are fundies who are purposefully misinterpreting science in order to discredit it.

Huh? I am not trying to discredit science...science is great stuff.

What do you call it then?

In otherwords...is it so illogical to try to find some reason for my being?

dissention

11-02-2005, 05:00 PM

But is it really illogical to think that I am more than just a universal accident.

"Universal accident"? Crikey.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:01 PM

"Universal accident"? Crikey.

Maybe that wasn't the best term...:sorry:

But I think you get what I was trying to say...right?

The Tower

11-02-2005, 05:01 PM

What do you call it then?
Evolution.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:02 PM

Evolution.

I believe in Evolution...

That doesn't take away from my belief in God.

dissention

11-02-2005, 05:03 PM

In otherwords...is it so illogical to try to find some reason for my being?

When you find the reason for being, let me know, because I'd be interested in hearing it. There is no reason for being, we just are.

amber

11-02-2005, 05:03 PM

Marvelously put. I've always thought that most people cling to their faith and religion, which is really nothing but organized superstition, out of fear. Fear of not having something to point to that would explain things for them. They need a reason for what goes on in the world and "God," for them, is that reason. When they can point to "God" as the reason for why things happen and why things are, it gives them comfort. Like you said, it's much easier to put faith in an intangible "God" instead of actually looking at things from a perspective where logical reasoning plays a more prominent role.
Thanks. Yes - faith is just to believe, it requires very little critical thought - and very little to no actual knowledge. which is not to say that people to not think critically about religion - obviously they do - and not to say that all people who subscribe to a religion have no knowlege - obviously many do.

But the abstract nature of religion is that they wouldn't have to have knowlege or think critically to be fully functional in a religion. They would only have to believe.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:04 PM

When you find the reason for being, let me know, because I'd be interested in hearing it. There is no reason for being, we just are.

...in your opinion.

Please be sure to add that.

The Tower

11-02-2005, 05:04 PM

Maybe that wasn't the best term...:sorry:

But I think you get what I was trying to say...right?
I get exactly what you are trying to say. The concept of a "universal accident" is based backwards logic. There was no "accident" in the equation. Humanity doesn't know the exact origin of the universe- I'm okay with not knowing that.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:06 PM

I get exactly what you are trying to say. The concept of a "universal accident" is based backwards logic. There was no "accident" in the equation. Humanity doesn't know the exact origin of the universe- I'm okay with not knowing that.

You seem to think I was trying to "twist" something around. I wasn't and I apologize if it seemed that way.

Your last statement is my point...you may be fine with just thinking that there is no explanation of the origin of the universe...but that doesn't cut it for me. I have longing for something other than this world...It's partly what fuels my faith.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 05:10 PM

"Universal accident"? Crikey.

That would have been matching maroon and blue in the 80's - OY!

amber

11-02-2005, 05:10 PM

But is it really illogical to think that I am more than just a universal accident.
"universal accident" is a hugely black and white term. In theory, just because "God" didn't create you does not mean you have to label your existence as a "universal accident". Nature works in very precise and mostly predictable ways, actually - so the term accident is not apropos. Secondly, why would your life have any less meaning to you and those around you just because you believe in god? It's the same life either way. With the same possibilities and potential. Why would you need a giant parent figure named god to justify your existence to? Can you not live, impact, function without the constant notion that your actions are pleasing someone else - someone nobody has ever seen and there is little to no evidence of? Because that's what you are doing.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:22 PM

That would have been matching maroon and blue in the 80's - OY!

It was a bad choice of words! For the third time now...:sorry:

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:23 PM

"universal accident" is a hugely black and white term. In theory, just because "God" didn't create you does not mean you have to label your existence as a "universal accident". Nature works in very precise and mostly predictable ways, actually - so the term accident is not apropos. Secondly, why would your life have any less meaning to you and those around you just because you believe in god? It's the same life either way. With the same possibilities and potential. Why would you need a giant parent figure named god to justify your existence to? Can you not live, impact, function without the constant notion that your actions are pleasing someone else - someone nobody has ever seen and there is little to no evidence of? Because that's what you are doing.

I didn't say we as human beings couldn't function without a belief in a higher power. Of course we all could do so...I just choose to believe a loving God.

But that still doesn't answer my question. Are those who choose to believe in a higher power...illogical?

amber

11-02-2005, 05:28 PM

You seem to think I was trying to "twist" something around. I wasn't and I apologize if it seemed that way.

Your last statement is my point...you may be fine with just thinking that there is no explanation of the origin of the universe...but that doesn't cut it for me. I have longing for something other than this world...It's partly what fuels my faith.
I have a longing for something other than this world, too. You know, time travel, magic carpets, talking animals - It would be great if my surroundings were like the movie Legend, or Neverending Story.
It doesn't mean that I could honestly believe those places exist without a shred of evidence, in fact against huge amounts of evidence that they don't exist. I would never discard all my knowlege and all the knowlege that is available to me that has been proven - so that I would feel better, and think that those places actually exist.

amber

11-02-2005, 05:31 PM

I didn't say we as human beings couldn't function without a belief in a higher power. Of course we all could do so...I just choose to believe a loving God.

But that still doesn't answer my question. Are those who choose to believe in a higher power...illogical?
Oh, sorry - yes, they are. Doesn't make it wrong, doesn't mean you can't do it, but using the actual rules of logic - it is very illogical. It's about as illogical as believing in...oh, say...leprechauns. There is the same amount of empirical evidence that leprechauns exist that there is that god exists.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 05:33 PM

This was a good post. That is an interesting dichotomy of the human psyche. While reading it, I also thought of something else. Does science really fail to provide logic and order that religion does provide? I would say no.

Well, as the science-and-religion-can-coexist proponents like to say: "Science answer the how; religion answers the why." Which is true. The question, though, ironically enough, is why do we need a why?

I tend to ask: Why not?

Religion mainly requires that you have faith in something you never see, and this thing, not you and everything else, are responsible for what happens in the world. And it requires only that you learn a set of rules which ARE based on judgement rather than unbiased openness to all knowledge, and the freedom to explore such knowlege.

I think most humans are nearly incapable at this time of accepting that kind of responsibility, and incapable of accepting their own true nature, and that they may actually be the ones controlling their lives, to a large degree responsible for their own destinies. It's hard to think that. It may be painful.

Absolutely! Have you read Nietzsche? That strikes me as a very Uebermensch line of thinking. One of Nietzsche's big ideas was completely throwing away and rejecting all of the external moral codes you've ever been taught and coming to grips with that true nature by opening yourself to all knowledge - and then constructing your own moral code from yourself, which celebrates yourself rather than denigrating yourself as a sinner or a lesser being who needs to submit to a higher authority to be kept in line.

But yes, most people are incapable of taking that kind of responsibility for themselves. And some of the ones who think they are capable of it end up becoming the Hitlers of the world...

Anyway, great post, very thought provoking. :wavey:

And yourself as well!

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 05:35 PM

But is it really illogical to think that I am more than just a universal accident.

That depends. What's your logic behind thinking that you're more than just a "universal accident"?

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 05:39 PM

That depends. What's your logic behind thinking that you're more than just a "universal accident"?

or for that matter that accidents ever actually occur in nature as expectation is a relatively human phenomenon :shrug:

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 05:40 PM

I have a longing for something other than this world, too. You know, time travel, magic carpets, talking animals - It would be great if my surroundings were like the movie Legend, or Neverending Story.

Man, I'm glad my surroundings aren't like The Neverending Story. Everything in that movie was just damn creepy. The turtle, the dog dragon guy, the wolf, the guy on the snail, even the princess. Yeeugh.

GIVE ME A NAME!!!!!

The Tower

11-02-2005, 05:46 PM

I didn't say we as human beings couldn't function without a belief in a higher power. Of course we all could do so...I just choose to believe a loving God.
How do you, as a person of faith in a loving god, look at the concepts of pestilence and natural disasters that kill millions of people? What do you think about all the poverty and suffering in the world? How does that work into your concept of a loving god?

I know how I, as a secular humanist, look at these things. I was just wondering what you think.

amber

11-02-2005, 05:47 PM

Man, I'm glad my surroundings aren't like The Neverending Story. Everything in that movie was just damn creepy. The turtle, the dog dragon guy, the wolf, the guy on the snail, even the princess. Yeeugh.

GIVE ME A NAME!!!!!
:laugh:
yes, but my point still holds. I guess I was mainly thinking of the flying part, and the being transported to another world while you are reading. Plus that cloud princess place.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 05:48 PM

I don't think I have actually actually read Nietzsche, I've read a crash course version, and excerpts, probably. But, in a sense, haven't many of us grown up with Nietzsche's concepts kind of in the collective unconscious of our society? His thoughts at the time really had a big impact, and have obviously rippled through time in many layers of society's and human existence and knowlege since they were published.
But no, I"ve learned, like I said, almost nothing about what Neitzche actually said. So, I guess it was just logic that brought me to those conclusions.

That's great, I'm glad some of Nietzsche's ideas have kind of become ingrained in our culture like that. I think I came to some of those conclusions before reading any Nietzsche as well, but I think it might have been after I'd read a lot of Rand, who has a lot of Nietzschean influences in her work.

So, do you think that science is a more logical web of knowlege than religion?

Oh absolutely. As much as I respect some of the great Western religious philosophers, and as much as some of them were very logical in their writings, at its core there's simply very little logic to be found in theology. But I think most theologians might tell you that that's partly the point: Logic can only take you so far, and that's where faith comes in. I don't buy that, but I think that's usually the thinking.

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:49 PM

Oh, sorry - yes, they are. Doesn't make it wrong, doesn't mean you can't do it, but using the actual rules of logic - it is very illogical. It's about as illogical as believing in...oh, say...leprechauns. There is the same amount of empirical evidence that leprechauns exist that there is that god exists.

Well thanks for answering my question. As hard as it was to hear that I, and others who believe, are thought to be illogical by non-believers...I got my question answered...so thanks! :)

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 05:50 PM

How do you, as a person of faith in a loving god, look at the concepts of pestilence and natural disasters that kill millions of people? What do you think about all the poverty and suffering in the world? How does that work into your concept of a loving god?

I know how I, as a secular humanist, look at these things. I was just wondering what you think.

Without suffering there would be no compassion...

:shrug:

dissention

11-02-2005, 05:51 PM

Well thanks for answering my question. As hard as it was to hear that I, and others who believe, are thought to be illogical by non-believers...I got my question answered...so thanks! :)

If God created all of us and everythng around us, who created God? That's always bugged me.

strandinthewind

11-02-2005, 05:54 PM

If God created all of us and everythng around us, who created God? That's always bugged me.

The answer is God is all - thus God is time and without Him there would be no time. God has always been and will always be. There is no beginning and no end.

I am not saying you should believe that. I am just giving you the Judeo Christian explanation - and interestingly the explanation contained in most other religions I have seen.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 05:59 PM

Without suffering there would be no compassion...

:shrug:

Ouch.

They feed you that and you eat it, huh? How does that **** taste?

An all-loving, all-powerful god causes massive and incredible suffering to billions of people every day simply to inspire compassion in the other folks? How do you deal with and worship a force that cruel?

Brwn_eyes0511

11-02-2005, 06:01 PM

The Tower

11-02-2005, 06:07 PM

Ouch.

They feed you that and you eat it, huh? How does that **** taste?

An all-loving, all-powerful god causes massive and incredible suffering to billions of people every day simply to inspire compassion in the other folks? How do you deal with and worship a force that cruel?
Yeah, that concept is pretty evil. Slaughtering millions of innocents to inspire compassion? Isn't that kind of a sledgehammer approach? I mean, I can be compassionate for someone simply because I care about them. I don't need a "loving" god to wipe them out for me to feel compassion.

Jyqm

11-02-2005, 06:08 PM

Why are you being so hateful? No one has fed me anything...

Sorry. But you answered the very important question of "How do you justify belief in an all-powerful, all-loving God with the pestilence and destruction which plagues the world every day?" with "Without suffering there would be no compassion." And that's not the first time I've heard that kind of answer, but still, the astounding cruelty of it shocks me every time.

But you're right. Without suffering there would be no compassion. But you know what? There also wouldn't be any suffering. Sounds like a pretty neat trade-off to me. Actually, sounds kind of like the way God supposedly set things up in the first place.

Mari

11-02-2005, 06:10 PM

I can go along with a lot that's been said in this thread but I just find it.. hurting to read an idea that people believe only out of fear.
I'll just try to dig up some sociology from my sleepy brain.
You're looking only at an individual level there, but missing the next level. I think many people call themselves religious because of socialization (they were raised to be religious), it's part of their culture, it's part of group dynamics. It serves a purpose: traditions and rituals serve as a glue to keep a group together.
But when those traditions/rituals lose their purpose, religion disappears, which happened with a lot of christians in my country and probably yours. You ought to think of what purpose christianity can have for certain groups if you want to know why it is succesful, not just look at what it means for the individual.

umm.. I'm too sleepy. I'll try to make more sense tomorrow.