fritz and destiny.... [Archive]

David

10-22-2005, 07:20 PM

I have just been listening to some Fritz LIVE!!!, a couple of mp3s, and a question occurred. Fritz sound really good to me... quirky and original... not so MOR as Fleetwood Mac often are. QUESTION: If Lindsey and Stevie had stayed with Fritz, and had never joined Mick, etc, would they FRITZ have become huge, and FM stayed a UK blues group?Maybe, but that sure is an unusual reaction -- to call live Fritz quirky & original in relation to Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac was renowned for being quirky live, throughout virtually all of their incarnations (except the 1987-90 band -- there wasn't anything quirky about their performances).
When you listen to the Fritz songs, you can hear Stevie doin' her thing... I think she/they would have gotten hugely popular even without the Mac swooping in with their fancy cadillacs and weekly paycheques. Maybe Stevie would have gotten famous slower... not gotten into the coke etc... and had more hits if she had more control over things (ie not having to compete for album space with Christine).It's debatable whether those are even Fritz songs. Everyone's relying on Maureen's word. Secondly, if Fritz had hit the big time, it just as easily could have been because of Javier & not Stevie or Lindsey, since Javier was writing the vast majority of the material & was really the boss of the band. He called the shots. If Fritz had stayed together & Javier had continued to control the musical direction of the band -- or even to increase his control -- it seems doubtful that Lindsey would have hung around. His interest in taking the reins in the recording studio was just about to blossom at that point.

Jyqm

10-22-2005, 07:25 PM

QUESTION: If Lindsey and Stevie had stayed with Fritz, and had never joined Mick, etc, would they FRITZ have become huge, and FM stayed a UK blues group?

Kind of rewriting history a bit there, aren't you? Stevie and Lindsey had already left Fritz to become Buckingham Nicks two years before they joined Fleetwood Mac. And for their part, Fleetwood Mac had ceased to be a blues group well before Stevie and Lindsey joined, nor were they based in the UK anymore at that time.

melly

10-22-2005, 08:04 PM

Jyqm

10-22-2005, 08:27 PM

thanks for responding

i guess that answered the question.. it had just occurred to me that FM's biggest draw, at least as I see it, was Stevie (to a lot of people) and Lindsey also... without them, I wonder if FM would have been anywhere near as successful. I like Christine and clearly she has a great voice etc but she doesn't have the chemistry, i think. Stevie does. and at the same time, i wondered how things would have been different if S & L had stayed with Fritz, or just stayed as Buckingham Nicks. Would they have been so famous? or was it the combo? was it the relatively sudden fame with FM that sent Stevie in the direction of coke, and from that into Klonopin and Street Angel and so on... I guess it was?

This has been gone over many times in many Mac forums, but obviously it was the combination of "these five people" that inexplicably became commercial gold. Neither contingent likely would have been nearly as successful on their own. Stevie and Lindsey were going nowhere fast and had been dropped by their record label; it seems pretty clear that, barring a miracle, they were not suddenly going to become a big name act on their own. And Fleetwood Mac, meanwhile, were without a guitarist and down to one not-terribly-prolific songwriter. Of course, who knows, any of them could very well have released an album that sold even more than Rumours did; but it didn't work out that way, so we'll never know.

And I know Stevie fans like to think that it was just Stevie's sheer presence that suddenly made Fleetwood Mac so popular, but that just isn't the case. Remember, the first hit single off the 1975 album was "Over My Head." And "Say You Love Me" charted just as high as "Rhiannon" but was on the charts a week longer. Why didn't Chris' songs ever do that well before? Who knows. It's entirely possible that Fleetwood Mac's success after 1975 had nothing to do with who was in the band; they just happened to be making the kind of music that the record-buying public had a major hankering for at the time.

I don't know if it was the sudden fame that led Stevie toward cocaine, but it was certainly the sudden wealth, coupled with the fact that cocaine was just everywhere in the rock music industry in the late 70s.

amber

10-22-2005, 08:50 PM

that was brilliant. I would only disagree a bit with one small point. I think that the people who went out and saw them live were influenced by Stevie's presence. Not all the people, obviously. But then also they were on TV, and I don't think you can deny that her charisma was very helpful, especially perhaps publicity wise, because who doesn't want to take a picture of a pretty girl, and see a pretty girl sing and dance? :shrug:
I'm not sure how indicitive of popularity "having a song on top of the charts" is, but then I would say that their very next album in that incarnation, Dreams was the chart topper. :shrug:

Jyqm

10-22-2005, 09:02 PM

that was brilliant. I would only disagree a bit with one small point. I think that the people who went out and saw them live were influenced by Stevie's presence. Not all the people, obviously. But then also they were on TV, and I don't think you can deny that her charisma was very helpful, especially perhaps publicity wise, because who doesn't want to take a picture of a pretty girl, and see a pretty girl sing and dance? :shrug:

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

amber

10-22-2005, 09:08 PM

Ghost_Tracker

10-22-2005, 10:23 PM

I recently read something about the history of the Buckingham/Nicks
album - the producer (Dennis Dunstan, maybe, I dunno) told them
that he felt that they would have more opportunities as a duo and
that they really needed to become independent of the rest of the
band in order to really have a chance to explore their options.
It was considered to be a polite way of telling them,
"DUMP these guys, they have NO real talent and they're holding
you back." :shocked:
Not to be mean but it seems to me that many successful stars in
this business are told the same thing, sooner or later. (WHAT was the
name of that guy who was in the original Beetles, before they made it
big? Yeah, I forgot too...)
By the way, I also read awhile back that before Stevie and Lindsey
started with Fleetwood Mac, they had to honor one more commitment -
a show in Birmingham, Alabama. Although basically no one knew that
they had joined FM (so, no "curiosity factor"), the show was sold out,
and the audience apparently LOVED them. Although they had been
struggling nationwide, in certain pockets such as Birmingham they were
VERY popular! So apparently they remember it as "The path not taken" -
a sign of what might have happened if they had taken another route.
So - yeah - they probably would have made it, at least for a time,
and with at least moderate success. Maybe William Shatner would be
on VH-1 talking about "One Hit Wonders" and mentioning B-N's big hit
"So Afraid" or "Frozen Love" or something! . . . . :D

Ghost_Tracker

10-22-2005, 10:25 PM

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

Uhmmm, I'm probably gotta get slammed for this, and I just
love 'er ta death but -
Gypsy?
All Lindsey....
Almost 100%.
She's brilliant -
But Gypsy?
I know the words mean a lot to her and that she wrote them -
but the song itself?
Lindsey. :blob2: :shocked:

Jyqm

10-23-2005, 06:20 AM

(WHAT was the
name of that guy who was in the original Beetles, before they made it
big? Yeah, I forgot too...)

Stu Sutcliffe.? Or Pete Best? Both were i nthere at some point, I think.

But yeah man, good thing they hooked up with that powerhouse of talent Ringo. They would have been up **** creek without him...

seekerj

10-23-2005, 07:50 AM

Jyqm

10-23-2005, 08:25 AM

One other historical fact that seems to get blurred; Klonopin showed up before the recording of The Other Side Of The Mirror. For some reason, Klonopin seems to only be discussed as being there for Street Angel. Personally, I think the Klonopin influence is more obvious on TOSOTM than on Street Angel. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
- Jim

I think it's more associated with Street Angel just because it was immediately after recording that album that she "kicked the habit." She started taking it almost immediately after she stopped doing cocaine, though, right?

snowman

10-23-2005, 09:02 AM

Uhmmm, I'm probably gotta get slammed for this, and I just
love 'er ta death but -
Gypsy?
All Lindsey....
Almost 100%.
She's brilliant -
But Gypsy?
I know the words mean a lot to her and that she wrote them -
but the song itself?
Lindsey. :blob2: :shocked:

Stevie is a prolific song writer. But anyone's songs need talented producing and arranging to be a hit.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 12:23 PM

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.
like I want to listen to john, lindsey, mick and christine as FM...ehh, no thanks. You're right, imo, that they all played pivotal roles in success, but I think Stevie was the glue.

amber

10-23-2005, 02:06 PM

Stu Sutcliffe.? Or Pete Best? Both were i nthere at some point, I think.

But yeah man, good thing they hooked up with that powerhouse of talent Ringo. They would have been up **** creek without him...

:lol: :lol:

Poor Ringo.

Jyqm

10-23-2005, 02:35 PM

like I want to listen to john, lindsey, mick and christine as FM...ehh, no thanks.

That's great. But that's just you. It's pretty obvious from even a cursory glance around The Ledge that that's not the case for everyone.

Do you only listen to Stevie's songs on mac albums? Except for the instances where she adds a harmony vocal, most Fleetwood Mac songs from 1975 to 1987 *are* just John, Lindsey, Mick and Christine.

You're right, imo, that they all played pivotal roles in success, but I think Stevie was the glue.

Was she the glue that made songs like "Over My Head," "Say You Love Me," "Go Your Own Way," "Don't Stop," "You Make Loving Fun," "Tusk" and "Hold Me" majorly successful hit singles? Her contributions to each were minimal, if they weren't completely non-existent.

SteveMacD

10-23-2005, 03:17 PM

Here's a series of questions that I asked earlier in the year that, I feel, help sets the record straight.

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years? Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule?

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation.

3. Who had been on American television by 1975?

4. Who had the record contract with a major lable in 1975?

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971?

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio across America in 1974?

7. Who had the road crew/touring machine and the contacts with major concert promoters to go with it?

8. Who had articles written about them in Rolling Stone prior to 1975?

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows?

10. Who advocated on behalf of Fleetwood Mac with Warners?

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE break out song, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey?

Fleetwood Mac's success was all Stevie, you say. Sorry, I'm not buying.

AliceLover

10-23-2005, 03:36 PM

One other historical fact that seems to get blurred; Klonopin showed up before the recording of The Other Side Of The Mirror. For some reason, Klonopin seems to only be discussed as being there for Street Angel. Personally, I think the Klonopin influence is more obvious on TOSOTM than on Street Angel. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
- Jim

Can you confirm this? Ive heard different views saying that she was not on klonopin during the recording of OSOTM......

lagringader&r

10-23-2005, 03:51 PM

1. Would the "Rumours" band have made albums that were as good as the ones that were released if they had to do five albums in three and a half years? Would Lindsey have been able to work in a situation where an outside manager was dictating the band's recording and touring schedule? No. Lindsey couldn't work *for* somebody I don't think. He would have quit the band long before 1987. More like 1977. But they were doing their own thing and who knows what would have happened if they had not signed with FM. Just coz their first record didn't sell doesn't mean the next one wouldn't have. That's something we and they will never know.

2. Who in the industry did Lindsey and Stevie know? Who did Mick, John, and Christine know? And, by "know" I mean that they could actually call said person on the phone and hit up a conversation. I bet Stevie and Lindsey didn't know anybody but since FM was already an established band, Mick, John and Christine would have known peeps, right? But knowing peeps doesn't guarantee success.

3. Who had been on American television by 1975? The old FM. Not saying that they weren't good but Ashlee Simpson and Britney Spears have been on American television and they suck, imo. Just saying that doesn't mean much.

4. Who had the record contract with a major lable in 1975? The old FM

5. Who had a greatest hits package out in 1971? The old FM. I'm not saying they weren't really good but you don't have to be good to put out a *greatest hits package*. Some bands that have been one hit wonders have put out greatest hits packages. Just saying.

6. Who had songs that were actually played on the radio across America in 1974? The old FM but they weren't BIG hits or at least not like Rumours was or the first one. You hardly ever hear any FM songs on the radio that aren't the Rumours lineup.

7. Who had the road crew/touring machine and the contacts with major concert promoters to go with it? The old FM but I think if you know a few peeps in the record biz, you can hook that up.

8. Who had articles written about them in Rolling Stone prior to 1975? Old FM.

9. Who had the steady following, which guaranteed people would go out to the shows? If they were so steady why weren't they getting big hits on the radio. If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie. Maybe Mick some. Maybe Christine too. Not even Lindsey.

10. Who advocated on behalf of Fleetwood Mac with Warners? Don't know this one. Mick?

11. Who had the break-out single? Were the voices of Stevie and Lindsey even present on the song? Since this was THE break out song, couldn't it be argued that the band's big break COULD have happened without Stevie and Lindsey? Christine. BUT did Christine ever have a break out song or a big song before Stevie and Lindsey joined? They joined and everything she did was like the Midas touch. Was that a coincidence?

Fleetwood Mac's success was all Stevie, you say. Sorry, I'm not buying.

I think it comes down to what peeps like. This sentence "If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie." It doesn't matter how good the old FM was or how great a singer Christine was or how many times they were on TV or toured. It's who peeps like. And they liked Stevie.

Jyqm

10-23-2005, 05:24 PM

The old FM. I'm not saying they weren't really good but you don't have to be good to put out a *greatest hits package*. Some bands that have been one hit wonders have put out greatest hits packages. Just saying.

This is a very new phenomenon. If you put out a greatest hits album in 1971, it meant you actually had some great hits.

If they were so steady why weren't they getting big hits on the radio. If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie. Maybe Mick some. Maybe Christine too. Not even Lindsey.

This is obviously not the case. Where does this kind of wrongheaded, narrow-minded Stevie worship come from?

Christine. BUT did Christine ever have a break out song or a big song before Stevie and Lindsey joined? They joined and everything she did was like the Midas touch. Was that a coincidence?

This is just ridiculous. Nobody had any idea who Stevie and Lindsey were when "Over My Head" was released and became a big hit. And Stevie is nowhere to be found on the track.

Why didn't Christine have a break-out single before then? Who knows? Why do hundreds of great bands languish in obscurity for years on end only to suddenly become popular? The market is a fickle place, and you never know what one song is going to get folks to latch onto you for the first time.

I think it comes down to what peeps like. This sentence "If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie." It doesn't matter how good the old FM was or how great a singer Christine was or how many times they were on TV or toured. It's who peeps like. And they liked Stevie.

Again, this is just a completely ridiculous statement. Where does this kind of Stevie solipsism come from?

Between 1975 and 1980, Stevie did have three very popular singles with Fleetwood Mac. But the band also released six or seven other very popular singles on which Stevie's contribution is all but non-existent. Clearly people did not like only Stevie.

SteveMacD

10-23-2005, 05:59 PM

I bet Stevie and Lindsey didn't know anybody but since FM was already an established band, Mick, John and Christine would have known peeps, right? But knowing peeps doesn't guarantee success.
It depends on the peeps. One of the peeps they knew was Bill Graham, owner of the Filmore clubs. He pretty much saved their butts in 1974. If it hadn't been for him, there would have been no Fleetwood Mac for Stevie and Lindsey to join.
The old FM. Not saying that they weren't good but Ashlee Simpson and Britney Spears have been on American television and they suck, imo. Just saying that doesn't mean much.
I don't know what you mean when you say the "old FM," as the specific show I was referring was recorded within six months of the arrival of Stevie and Lindsey. So it wasn't THAT old. Even though I agree that Simpson and Spears suck, quality of music has NOTHING to do with the argument. What I'm saying is that there was a momentum with Fleetwood Mac that had been building that simply didn't exist with Buckingham Nicks. "Mystery To Me" produced a song that got a lot of air play for YEARS thereafter. Then, the there was the whole Fake Mac scandle that was pretty heavily covered in the music rags. The interesting thing about that is there were a lot of people in the music business who started coming to Fleetwood Mac's defense, which helped increase their visibility with Warner's. Finally, they were on television and played a hell of a set. They had won the war, but Bob Welch had had enough. Who knows what would have happened if he had stayed. I'm not saying it would have been "Rumours," but I do think the situation was right and the momentum was clearly in their favor.
The old FM. I'm not saying they weren't really good but you don't have to be good to put out a *greatest hits package*. Some bands that have been one hit wonders have put out greatest hits packages. Just saying.
In some cases, that's true, but not here. Almost every song on the package was a hit single, or at least a song that got a lot of airplay. And one of those songs was paid tribute to by the Beatles. That was a compilation that was rightfully called "Greatest Hits."
The old FM but they weren't BIG hits or at least not like Rumours was or the first one. You hardly ever hear any FM songs on the radio that aren't the Rumours lineup.
Up until Clear Channel bought most of the radio stations in my area, I used to hear "Hypnotized" on a fairly regular basis. In any event, I'm not suggesting that anything Fleetwood Mac was doing compared in terms of chart success to "Rumours." I'm just saying that the momentum was working in their favor. OTOH, I've NEVER heard a Buckingham Nicks song on the radio. The comparison isn't "Rumours" Mac vs. Old Mac. It's where Mick, John, and Christine were on Dec. 31, 1974 compared to where Stevie and Lindsey were in terms of where the careers were going.
If they were so steady why weren't they getting big hits on the radio. If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie. Maybe Mick some. Maybe Christine too. Not even Lindsey.
By the same token, Ashlee Simpson and Britney Spears have had big hits on the radio, and they suck (sound familiar?). They did have a steady following. Dont' confuse a following with radio hits. The Grateful Dead had one of the most impressive followings in rock history, yet they only had one hit single in their entire career. As for who people are going to talk about, yeah, Stevie was the most visible, as she should have been. The lead singer in most bands is usually the most popular. However, it should be noted that Christine had more hit singles with Fleetwood Mac than did Stevie.
Don't know this one. Mick?
Absolutely Mick. Warner's had the master of the white FM album in a pile of tapes to be erased. He said that if they weren't going to support the band, they wanted out of their contract. Uncle Mo (the president of Warner's) decided to keep the band on, as it was easier for him to work with a drummer than a suit. But, Mick still had to find somebody to remix "Over My Head" for the radio. And, Mick was the guy who decided to give their earnings back to promoters if a show didn't sell-out (yes, I said "sell-out," which the band did from time-to-time before Stevie and Lindsey graced it with their presence). So, really, I could argue that it was as much Mick's persistance with industry insiders as anything else that made Fleetwood Mac a success.
Christine. BUT did Christine ever have a break out song or a big song before Stevie and Lindsey joined? They joined and everything she did was like the Midas touch. Was that a coincidence?
That's not a yes-or-no question. Since the band was pretty much off Warner's radar, and there was no manager breathing down their throats, the band had more time to actually think their music out a bit more. They were able to actually craft what they were doing, whereas before they'd write songs, practice songs, record songs, release albums, and tour. They were actually putting more thought into instrumentation, more complex harmonies, song arrangement (go to my site and check out "Blue Letter by the guys who wrote it), and album flow. The fact that they had a Brian Wilson-esq producer in the band only helped. The reason for the first point in my previous post is that the band DID record 5 albums in 3.5 years. I'm willing to bet that they spent more time recording the white FM album as they did the five albums with Welch. Add to that the obvious chemistry (though that wasn't necessarily a factor on "Over My Head") in the band, and I think Mick, who had been manager for less than a year at that point, finally realized that if they were going to make it, it was with this album, and they were going to have to fight for it.
I think it comes down to what peeps like. This sentence "If you ask peeps about FM, they're going to talk about Stevie." It doesn't matter how good the old FM was or how great a singer Christine was or how many times they were on TV or toured. It's who peeps like. And they liked Stevie.
That totally misses the point of what I've been talking about. The momentum was with Fleetwood Mac when Stevie and Lindsey joined. The ride was going up, and they got on at the right time. In any event, whenever I tell people I'm a Mac fan, I more often than not hear "oh, I really don't like Stevie Nicks." Or, if I talk to my music buddies, they'll talk at lenght about how great Peter Green is. I've got a coworker who loves Fleetwood Mac, and what she wants is a recording of Christine singing in a club! Hell, when my brother-in-law was just dating my sister, he heard I was a Mac fan and asked me if he could borrow the Bob Welch-era material. So, I don't totally agree with that sentiment.

David

10-23-2005, 06:50 PM

That totally misses the point of what I've been talking about. The momentum was with Fleetwood Mac when Stevie and Lindsey joined. The ride was going up, and they got on at the right time.I don't buy all that "right place, right time" nonsense. That's the bunk. Here's what happened to Fleetwood Mac in 1975 (which Samuel Graham was perceptive enough to point out): AM radio.

"Over My Head" was the band's first splash on AM radio, & AM radio is what put them across in America. It's called crossover appeal, & in 1975, that's how you achieved crossover appeal: you had a hit on AM radio. FM was still the haven for hippies & jam-oriented rock. Supermarkets & movie theaters didn't pipe in FM radio playlists. They piped in AM radio playlists. AM radio is what made Fleetwood Mac the band du jour with all the housewives & doctors & white-collar workers in their 30s & 40s & their kids who hadn't yet started smoking pot & listening to Deep Purple or Pink Floyd or "Hypnotized" on FM.

AM is what made Fleetwood Mac the biggest pop band in America. I know because I was an AM pop baby & knew that culture inside & out.

(Of course, by the time FM reached its pinnacle ascension in 1977 among ALL radio listeners -- & you weren't caught dead listening to AM unless you were sitting in your fishing boat & only had a little transistor radio with you -- Fleetwood Mac was welcomed with open arms to the Frequency Modulation world.)

SteveMacD

10-23-2005, 07:04 PM

(Of course, by the time FM reached its pinnacle ascension in 1977 among ALL radio listeners -- & you weren't caught dead listening to AM unless you were sitting in your fishing boat & only had a little transistor radio with you -- Fleetwood Mac was welcomed with open arms to the Frequency Modulation world.)
You're correct. However, on the last point, about FM being welcomed on the FM side of the dial, I'd only say that they had been on the FM side of the dial for all of their careers up to that point. It was being welcomed on the AM side of the dial that had been the SOB. And, that's why Mick insisted they find an outside producer to remix OMH for AM. I think their appeal to both AM and FM audiences is one of the reasons they were as successful as they were. But, I'm still not of the ilk that their success can be pinpointed on any one or two factors, let alone crediting everything on the two Californians. I think the reasons for their success are just too numerous.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 07:57 PM

That's great. But that's just you. It's pretty obvious from even a cursory glance around The Ledge that that's not the case for everyone.

Do you only listen to Stevie's songs on mac albums? Except for the instances where she adds a harmony vocal, most Fleetwood Mac songs from 1975 to 1987 *are* just John, Lindsey, Mick and Christine.

Was she the glue that made songs like "Over My Head," "Say You Love Me," "Go Your Own Way," "Don't Stop," "You Make Loving Fun," "Tusk" and "Hold Me" majorly successful hit singles? Her contributions to each were minimal, if they weren't completely non-existent.
yeah, whatever...

fact remains, FM wouldn't have been FM without Stevie...they needed Stevie and Lindsey as much as Stevie and Lindsey needed them

SteveMacD

10-23-2005, 08:43 PM

fact remains, FM wouldn't have been FM without Stevie
Nor would FM have been FM without Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey, Bob, Peter, Danny, Billy...You get the point.
...they needed Stevie and Lindsey as much as Stevie and Lindsey needed them
From a creative standpoint, I agree. I think Fleetwood Mac could have had a few big hits without Lindsey or Stevie, and they without Fleetwood Mac. But, I honestly don't believe that either situation would have been nearly as successful, or interesting. It's the difference in being a Peter Noone or being The Beatles.

I agree with Jyqm that Stevie wasn't the glue made a lot of songs successful hit singles (though, the harmonic love fest that is "Say You Love Me" was certainly a major group effort). However, I'll also acknowledge that her presence in concert was a major part of the band's success. But, it was only a part. It wasn't the whole story.

Jyqm

10-23-2005, 09:19 PM

yeah, whatever...

fact remains, FM wouldn't have been FM without Stevie...

What does that even mean?

they needed Stevie and Lindsey as much as Stevie and Lindsey needed them

I don't recall anyone ever denying that. It's the "Fleetwood Mac would have been nothing without Stevie, obviously she was the star and the only one anybody ever cared about, she's the only reason any of them were ever famous or successful" attitude that's being taken issue with.

catinthedark

10-23-2005, 09:38 PM

yeah, whatever...

fact remains, FM wouldn't have been FM without Stevie...they needed Stevie and Lindsey as much as Stevie and Lindsey needed them

Well, Fleetwood Mac was Fleetwood Mac before Stevie and Lindsey were invited to join.

This debate is so old. I will never understand the vibe of competition that seems to exist between Stevie fans, Lindsey fans, fans of the pre BN Fleetwood Mac, post BN Fleetwood Mac, and SYW lineup. It all comes down to personal taste. And going back and forth about whether Fleetwood Mac would have been successful or would have disappeared from the music world without the addition of Stevie and Lindsey is pointless. We'll never know.

Can't we all just get along? :laugh:

dissention

10-23-2005, 09:41 PM

fact remains, FM wouldn't have been FM without Stevie

Oh, that's just silliness.

amber

10-23-2005, 09:42 PM

What does that even mean

I don't recall anyone ever denying that. It's the "Fleetwood Mac would have been nothing without Stevie, obviously she was the star and the only one anybody ever cared about, she's the only reason any of them were ever famous or successful" attitude that's being taken issue with.

Well...I don't believe they would have been "nothing", but I do believe that in the time, place, circumstances (the seventies) they were performing - that they would have been waaaay less without Stevie. Not because of talent, because we all know the real facts about that, but because of the many other unusual and timely factors (including talent, of course) that Stevie brought to the band. Video and audio was really taking off, and Stevie is fricking gorgeous. The rock chick thing was really coming into it's own, and again, there's Stevie. The new age stuff was really coming into the collective consciousness, and again, there she is. More people were including concerts as an important part of their life (lots of teens and twenties) - And Stevie is inarguably mesmerizing live. (at least at the beginning, she was).
This is all aside from her stunning and original voice, her electrifying stage performances, and her "bizarre" yet immediately engaging and purely viscerally affecting lyrics.
So...
would they have been anything without her? Yes, but I don't think they would have been as much.
Would she be anything without them??? Not as much, that's for damn sure.

It's all very even in my opinion.

The only thing that slants in Stevie's favor is charisma, and beauty, and timeliness - And you can't buy that, you can't practice it, and if you don't have it, it's just not there. And though some of the other band members are charismatic, notably Lindsey, they were just not as much. Because they were not the prettiest, or the most social. So, as I've always said, Stevie brought a SERIOUS "Star" component to FM. You may recall, as well, that Stevie was the one most willing to talk to the press. And she was the one they most wanted to talk to.

Again, aside from her vocal talent, which I think is considerable, but which i understand others may not agree with.

strandinthewind

10-23-2005, 09:42 PM

I think Stevie's apparent draw, popularity, recognition, etc. leaves a bad taste in peoples' mouths. Clearly, they all needed each other, at least up until Bella Donna and La Nicks would never have been able to make Bella Donna without FM. But, clearly La Nicks' personage on stage, willingness to work with many other artists, and her ambition off of it greatly added to the continued success of FM, which is no comment on the musical talents of any other band member or their vast efforts to make La Nicks' music into a marketable form.

sparky

10-23-2005, 10:06 PM

which is no comment on the musical talents of any other band member or their vast efforts to make La Nicks' music into a marketable form.

Indeed. And let me tell you, after reading a few old interviews lately, I have to give Lindsey even more props as her arranger/producer - and to his superhuman ability to have stayed in the band as long as he did.

Those masters from Tango that were posted on the Rumours forum recently shed a lot of light on his magicianship. He did SO MUCH to Isn't It Midnight, and to Seven Wonders. I also refer time and time again in my own mind to the horrific demo of Thrown Down that was part of the TISL demos that floated around. I thought that song was garbage in its demo form. One of the weakest songs she ever demo'd and considered recording. He turned it into something decent.

This is slightly off topic, but that interview that was posted on Seven Wonders where Stevie says she was the reason for the tension in those sessions, and that Lindsey basically wanted to kill her...thank God for Sandy Stewart and her one solid song...if Stevie had sent Joan Of Arc, WISYA, and WTTRS to me to try and turn into something listenable, I would have quit the band on the spot. She gave them putrid table scraps of partial songs and he was expected to turn them into something edible. I have newfound respect for his stamina and ability to hold his tongue and temper after thinking about how much effort and creativity he had to pull out of thin air to put those pieces together. I still don't like the final products of those songs, but at least they didn't kill her career and reputation as a writer. They could have. Critics savaged them in their studio polished form.

Okay, carry on......kudos to AMber for the outro :xoxo:

rbs3676

10-23-2005, 10:14 PM

This is slightly off topic, but that interview that was posted on Seven Wonders where Stevie says she was the reason for the tension in those sessions, and that Lindsey basically wanted to kill her...thank God for Sandy Stewart and her one solid song...if Stevie had sent Joan Of Arc, WISYA, and WTTRS to me to try and turn into something listenable, I would have quit the band on the spot. She gave them putrid table scraps of partial songs and he was expected to turn them into something edible. I have newfound respect for his stamina and ability to hold his tongue and temper after thinking about how much effort and creativity he had to pull out of thin air to put those pieces together. I still don't like the final products of those songs, but at least they didn't kill her career and reputation as a writer. They could have. Critics savaged them in their studio polished form.

Once again, I totally agree with you, Sparky. Mr Buckingham IS the man when it comes to turning Stevie's paper napkins into gold. Even if they are occasionally from Sandy Stewart's table.
Lindsey has more creativity in his pinky than most artist's in the top 40 will ever have in their entire career. The man knows his ****.
And I think she totally understands this.
I remember the quote from Cher..."without Sonny, there would be no Cher".

rbs

sparky

10-23-2005, 10:30 PM

Once again, I totally agree with you, Sparky. Mr Buckingham IS the man when it comes to turning Stevie's paper napkins into gold. Even if they are occasionally from Sandy Stewart's table.
Lindsey has more creativity in his pinky than most artist's in the top 40 will ever have in their entire career. The man knows his ****.
And I think she totally understands this.
I remember the quote from Cher..."without Sonny, there would be no Cher".

rbs

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the only people who can produce her well are the people who will stand up to her and fight her tooth and nail. Iovine did, and when he couldn't anymore, he left. Lindsey can. At this point in her career, there aren't many who will. Granted, I think Shanks hit an absolute home run with the TISL title track (and to a lesser degree POTU). His other efforts were spotty - I love how Sheryl Crow, Meg Ryan, and Laura Dern brow beat him into including the extra verses in FFG. When Stevie couldn't. At least he didn't include everything in it :laugh:

On the other hand, he is responsible for the swill that is "Everyday", but my opinion about the inclusion of that song doesn't need to be repeated yet again.

amber

10-23-2005, 10:35 PM

Indeed. And let me tell you, after reading a few old interviews lately, I have to give Lindsey even more props as her arranger/producer - and to his superhuman ability to have stayed in the band as long as he did.

Those masters from Tango that were posted on the Rumours forum recently shed a lot of light on his magicianship. He did SO MUCH to Isn't It Midnight, and to Seven Wonders. I also refer time and time again in my own mind to the horrific demo of Thrown Down that was part of the TISL demos that floated around. I thought that song was garbage in its demo form. One of the weakest songs she ever demo'd and considered recording. He turned it into something decent.

This is slightly off topic, but that interview that was posted on Seven Wonders where Stevie says she was the reason for the tension in those sessions, and that Lindsey basically wanted to kill her...thank God for Sandy Stewart and her one solid song...if Stevie had sent Joan Of Arc, WISYA, and WTTRS to me to try and turn into something listenable, I would have quit the band on the spot. She gave them putrid table scraps of partial songs and he was expected to turn them into something edible. I have newfound respect for his stamina and ability to hold his tongue and temper after thinking about how much effort and creativity he had to pull out of thin air to put those pieces together. I still don't like the final products of those songs, but at least they didn't kill her career and reputation as a writer. They could have. Critics savaged them in their studio polished form.

Okay, carry on......kudos to AMber for the outro :xoxo:

It's true - I've grown to have immense respect for Lindsey, especially after hearing some of Stevie's demos.
But then, none of my points was that the rest of the band weren't geniuses.
And LB gets number one genius status. At least as far as making..."her songs....into...recordzzz!":)

Although I still think he was probably an ass to her, most times. But thank god he still worked with her music. But I still don't think all that assishness was necessary. I mean, for all the great work he did, he still didn't totally think of those songs. So.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:44 PM

Nor would FM have been FM without Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey, Bob, Peter, Danny, Billy...You get the point.
ahh...yeah, I guess

From a creative standpoint, I agree. I think Fleetwood Mac could have had a few big hits without Lindsey or Stevie, and they without Fleetwood Mac. But, I honestly don't believe that either situation would have been nearly as successful, or interesting. It's the difference in being a Peter Noone or being The Beatles.

I agree with Jyqm that Stevie wasn't the glue made a lot of songs successful hit singles (though, the harmonic love fest that is "Say You Love Me" was certainly a major group effort). However, I'll also acknowledge that her presence in concert was a major part of the band's success. But, it was only a part. It wasn't the whole story.
I never said she was the glue that made songs hits...and yes, everyone contributed...

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:46 PM

What does that even mean?
apparently, you're smart enough...figure it out

I don't recall anyone ever denying that. It's the "Fleetwood Mac would have been nothing without Stevie, obviously she was the star and the only one anybody ever cared about, she's the only reason any of them were ever famous or successful" attitude that's being taken issue with.
I never said that. At all. Don't get so dang cocky...she was a major part of their success, as was Christine, et al. - but she contributed a bit more in certain ways, IMO

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:48 PM

Well, Fleetwood Mac was Fleetwood Mac before Stevie and Lindsey were invited to join.

This debate is so old. I will never understand the vibe of competition that seems to exist between Stevie fans, Lindsey fans, fans of the pre BN Fleetwood Mac, post BN Fleetwood Mac, and SYW lineup. It all comes down to personal taste. And going back and forth about whether Fleetwood Mac would have been successful or would have disappeared from the music world without the addition of Stevie and Lindsey is pointless. We'll never know.

Can't we all just get along? :laugh:
yes, they were...sheesh...and apparently felt SN/LB could bring some new life to the band

and no, we can't get along

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:49 PM

Oh, that's just silliness.
of course you must chime in...big surprise there!

say what you will...I can think what I want

(sorry, I'm just in a crappy ass mood and this thread is pissing me off)

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:50 PM

Well...I don't believe they would have been "nothing", but I do believe that in the time, place, circumstances (the seventies) they were performing - that they would have been waaaay less without Stevie. Not because of talent, because we all know the real facts about that, but because of the many other unusual and timely factors (including talent, of course) that Stevie brought to the band. Video and audio was really taking off, and Stevie is fricking gorgeous. The rock chick thing was really coming into it's own, and again, there's Stevie. The new age stuff was really coming into the collective consciousness, and again, there she is. More people were including concerts as an important part of their life (lots of teens and twenties) - And Stevie is inarguably mesmerizing live. (at least at the beginning, she was).
This is all aside from her stunning and original voice, her electrifying stage performances, and her "bizarre" yet immediately engaging and purely viscerally affecting lyrics.
So...
would they have been anything without her? Yes, but I don't think they would have been as much.
Would she be anything without them??? Not as much, that's for damn sure.

It's all very even in my opinion.

The only thing that slants in Stevie's favor is charisma, and beauty, and timeliness - And you can't buy that, you can't practice it, and if you don't have it, it's just not there. And though some of the other band members are charismatic, notably Lindsey, they were just not as much. Because they were not the prettiest, or the most social. So, as I've always said, Stevie brought a SERIOUS "Star" component to FM. You may recall, as well, that Stevie was the one most willing to talk to the press. And she was the one they most wanted to talk to.

Again, aside from her vocal talent, which I think is considerable, but which i understand others may not agree with.
nicely put

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:51 PM

I remember the quote from Cher..."without Sonny, there would be no Cher".
as much as I love Cher...she can hardly be compared to Stevie in any respect

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 10:53 PM

It's true - I've grown to have immense respect for Lindsey, especially after hearing some of Stevie's demos.
But then, none of my points was that the rest of the band weren't geniuses.
And LB gets number one genius status. At least as far as making..."her songs....into...recordzzz!":)

Although I still think he was probably an ass to her, most times. But thank god he still worked with her music. But I still don't think all that assishness was necessary. I mean, for all the great work he did, he still didn't totally think of those songs. So.
geez, I know - sometimes I get so sick of hearing how awesome LB was for doing this and doing that...give the man a gold medal and move on...

I do appreciate his talents and what he did for Stevie's songs, but ****, you'd think he had formulated a plan for world peace.

amber

10-23-2005, 10:55 PM

geez, I know - sometimes I get so sick of hearing how awesome LB was for doing this and doing that...give the man a gold medal and move on...

I do appreciate his talents and what he did for Stevie's songs, but ****, you'd think he had formulated a plan for world peace.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

That was awesome.
:xoxo: :xoxo:

I know, you'd think she never did anything, ever.

sparky

10-23-2005, 11:10 PM

It's true - I've grown to have immense respect for Lindsey, especially after hearing some of Stevie's demos.

Which I am sure is one reason she hates that some of them got out :lol:

Although I still think he was probably an ass to her, most times. But thank god he still worked with her music. But I still don't think all that assishness was necessary. I mean, for all the great work he did, he still didn't totally think of those songs. So.

I can't comment at all on the personal politics that toxified the air between them. It is legendary, and I can't even imagine the rancor, hurt feelings and god knows what else between them. So, was his "assishness" (what a lyrical AMberism that is:woohoo: ) really needed ? I will never know. I have heard she had her moments as well. The speculation could entertain us for decades.

I would never even posit that her work would be a mess without him. Other producers have done fine work with her songs, and some of those songs were very solid from the get go (Landslide, That's Alright, and Storms come to mind right off the bat). It is only the really bad stuff that finally made a light bulb go off in my head about what he really HAD to do with some of the songs he was given. And at a certain point, his only choice was to keep doing it or quit - that point was Tango of course. I see at this point that the only thing he could have possibly done then was walk out or go completely postal.

dissention

10-23-2005, 11:18 PM

I would never even posit that her work would be a mess without him. Other producers have done fine work with her songs, and some of those songs were very solid from the get go (Landslide, That's Alright, and Storms come to mind right off the bat). It is only the really bad stuff that finally made a light bulb go off in my head about what he really HAD to do with some of the songs he was given. And at a certain point, his only choice was to keep doing it or quit - that point was Tango of course. I see at this point that the only thing he could have possibly done then was walk out or go completely postal.

Exactly.

The guy was the first to make her listenable for the masses. But I suppose no one can state such an opinion as often as those who squeal & stomp & jump with excitement over the exquisite harmonies and haunting lyricism of stifled romance!!1!!11!!!1!

Stevie writes all the words to her songs and has a general idea of what she wants them to sound like. But for the most part, she's incapable of going from A to B without some massive help on the part of her producers, whoever they may be. I think she should get all the credit possible for being the one to actually give birth to her songs, but they're stillborn without her collaborators (Lindsey, Iovine, Shanks, Crow, etc.), and when discussing her success and her songs, I think it's only fair that they get a decent amount of credit. If left to her own devices, we'd get an album of rambling junk that had no redeeming value in terms of aural pleasure, piano banging that rivaled that of little Timmy's first piano lesson at the age of six, and just a general lack of direction or purpose.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:20 PM

dissention

10-23-2005, 11:22 PM

I think that's taking it a little far...well, actually I think that's bull****

Well, to quote you, "say what you will...I can think what I want."

amber

10-23-2005, 11:24 PM

Which I am sure is one reason she hates that some of them got out :lol:

I can't comment at all on the personal politics that toxified the air between them. It is legendary, and I can't even imagine the rancor, hurt feelings and god knows what else between them. So, was his "assishness" (what a lyrical AMberism that is:woohoo: ) really needed ? I will never know. I have heard she had her moments as well. The speculation could entertain us for decades.

I would never even posit that her work would be a mess without him. Other producers have done fine work with her songs, and some of those songs were very solid from the get go (Landslide, That's Alright, and Storms come to mind right off the bat). It is only the really bad stuff that finally made a light bulb go off in my head about what he really HAD to do with some of the songs he was given. And at a certain point, his only choice was to keep doing it or quit - that point was Tango of course. I see at this point that the only thing he could have possibly done then was walk out or go completely postal.

Yeah, that all makes sense, at least the music part. The "Lindsey leaving during Tango" or the "Lindsey as an ass" I have definite, and conflicting opinions on.
Although, I agree, his only choice was to leave during Tango, because he was such an ass that he could not stand Stevie at all, and may have killed her. Which is weird, because she'd been through rehab at that point. :laugh:
Honestly, I hate to believe it, but from all I've read, I really do think that Lindsey was jealous of Stevie, and also in the early years that he was really pissed off because he was also possessive of her for awhile after the breakup. I kind of think that Lindsey is a regular guy that way. I mean, a regular guy who is a genius.
Look how he reacted when "he didn't WANT an omelet!" or whatever it was. He's a whiny bitch, no doubt about it.

dissention

10-23-2005, 11:27 PM

Look how he reacted when "he didn't WANT an omelet!"

I don't waaaaaaaaant an omelette!

It's so whiney that it pierces right through you. He was quite the little bitch diva back then.

amber

10-23-2005, 11:31 PM

Exactly.

The guy was the first to make her listenable for the masses. But I suppose no one can state such an opinion as often as those who squeal & stomp & jump with excitement over the exquisite harmonies and haunting lyricism of stifled romance!!1!!11!!!1!

Stevie writes all the words to her songs and has a general idea of what she wants them to sound like. But for the most part, she's incapable of going from A to B without some massive help on the part of her producers, whoever they may be. I think she should get all the credit possible for being the one to actually give birth to her songs, but they're stillborn without her collaborators (Lindsey, Iovine, Shanks, Crow, etc.), and when discussing her success and her songs, I think it's only fair that they get a decent amount of credit. If left to her own devices, we'd get an album of rambling junk that had no redeeming value in terms of aural pleasure, piano banging that rivaled that of little Timmy's first piano lesson at the age of six, and just a general lack of direction or purpose.

Dude, your 1!!1!1! (whatever the hell that even means) is an insult to us middle of the roaders. I mean, I basically agree with you, but without taking any luster off of Stevie's talent, which should be looked at how it really is - A great, good, mediocre, and bad lyrics writer (And a prolific one), very little producing ability aside from her opinion, an often stellar vocalist with a highly unusual sensibility, and a really good, beautiful, engaging performer (in her prime), with oodles of charisma.
And I believe tons of people in this thread have acknowledged Lindsey's brilliance and importance. At least I have.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:34 PM

Well, to quote you, "say what you will...I can think what I want."
I will only quote Hedwig "There's no need, there's none"

what a smug !!11!!111!1!!!

dissention

10-23-2005, 11:37 PM

very little producing ability aside from her opinion

Shall we bet on how long it takes for someone to chime in with "BOMBAY SAPPHIRES!!"?

And I believe tons of people in this thread have acknowledged Lindsey's brilliance and importance. At least I have.

Of course you have, as have others. But I just don't get it when people take such acknowledgement as some sort of slight against Stevie. I mean, she created the material to begin with; no one is taking that away from her and no one is saying she's an untalented hack. Far from it.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:43 PM

no one is saying she's an untalented hack. Far from it.
then exactly what do you mean by...

"but they're stillborn without her collaborators. . .If left to her own devices, we'd get an album of rambling junk that had no redeeming value in terms of aural pleasure, piano banging that rivaled that of little Timmy's first piano lesson at the age of six, and just a general lack of direction or purpose."

sparky

10-23-2005, 11:45 PM

Yeah, that all makes sense, at least the music part. The "Lindsey leaving during Tango" or the "Lindsey as an ass" I have definite, and conflicting opinions on.
Although, I agree, his only choice was to leave during Tango, because he was such an ass that he could not stand Stevie at all, and may have killed her. Which is weird, because she'd been through rehab at that point.

Well, personal things aside, I think his animus at that time was likely rooted in the professional frustration. My main point in that post was that he was given three steaming heaps of sewage (WISYA, WTTRS and Joan Of Arc...who knows, I think there may have been others, my memory fails me) and one decent song (Seven Wonders), and was expected to make 3 silk purses out of that one piece of standard fabric and three rotted burlap produce bags that were laid before him - all while Stevie was out falling off the stages of every arena in the United States, and a few in Australia. And I suspect that at the time the only communication between her and the band was done to through agents and attorneys. Can you imagine ? I wasn't there, but those facts are fairly well documented. That situation would have made a sane professional go berserk, let alone a coked up musical genius who was trying to make a decent record with one of the singer songwriters giving him swill and not even being there.

I don't doubt he was jealous of her commercial success, but I bet he was more pissed off about having to slave away at making those songs into something that wouldn't humiliate her and the rest of the band. With no help from her. I only recently began to think about this from his point of view.

Look how he reacted when "he didn't WANT an omelet!" or whatever it was. He's a whiny bitch, no doubt about it.

Oh yeah, completely. A little, nasal, whiny, spoiled bitch of a guy. No argument about that from me.:laugh:

dissention

10-23-2005, 11:48 PM

then exactly what do you mean by...

"but they're stillborn without her collaborators. . .If left to her own devices, we'd get an album of rambling junk that had no redeeming value in terms of aural pleasure, piano banging that rivaled that of little Timmy's first piano lesson at the age of six, and just a general lack of direction or purpose."

Yeah, because that statement encompasses everything about her and every talent she possesses. :rolleyes:

Ever listened to her raw demos? How would she possibly make them into a listenable product on her own with little help? She needs the producers and all of the experience that comes with them. She creates that intial "magic" or whatever you want to call it when she writes her little songs and imagines them in her head, but she needs those producers to fully realize those songs and their "magic" in the end.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:49 PM

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:51 PM

Ever listened to her raw demos?
this part alone insults me...

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:52 PM

Yeah, because that statement encompasses everything about her and every talent she possesses. :rolleyes:
are you freakin' kidding me??? mother of god...

virginity is like a balloon...one prick and it's gone

sparky

10-23-2005, 11:55 PM

what fabulous alliteration and imagery and metaphor...

I do aim to please.

I won't take your literary complimets as an agreement, but kind words are always appreciated.

On edit - in my frenzy, I actually spaced out alliterating anything. So unlike me...and singer songwriter doesn't really count.

dissention

10-23-2005, 11:57 PM

are you freakin' kidding me??? mother of god...

virginity is like a balloon...one prick and it's gone

Don't take your self-admitted pissy attitude out on me just because we disagree on certain aspects of her music. Civily agreeing to disagree is all that's needed if you don't want to continue with the conversation.

JazmenFlowers

10-23-2005, 11:57 PM

I do aim to please.

I won't take your literary complimets as an agreement, but kind words are always appreciated.
I always appreciate fine writing, even if I don't think it's worth the paper it's written on.

amber

10-23-2005, 11:59 PM

Shall we bet on how long it takes for someone to chime in with "BOMBAY SAPPHIRES!!"?

Of course you have, as have others. But I just don't get it when people take such acknowledgement as some sort of slight against Stevie. I mean, she created the material to begin with; no one is taking that away from her and no one is saying she's an untalented hack. Far from it.
I suppose people usually do it because the poeps who say that about Lindsey are usually disparaging Stevie, or minimizing her talent. :shrug: And I don't know what you mean by bombay sapphires. ?

catinthedark

10-24-2005, 12:00 AM

(sorry, I'm just in a crappy ass mood and this thread is pissing me off)

Sorry to hear that. Do you always get pissed off when people don't agree with you (said without a snarky tone, believe it or not)? Honestly, dude, we're just talking about music. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Agree, disagree. But why get pissed off?

By the way, I love the picture in your sig.

JazmenFlowers

10-24-2005, 12:02 AM

Don't take your self-admitted pissy attitude out on me just because we disagree on certain aspects of her music. Civily agreeing to disagree is all that's needed if you don't want to continue with the conversation.
Oh get over yourself already...I'm simply responding to your comments and will continue to do so as long as I want to. I ended that post with a joke because I thought it was funny and ironic.

David

10-24-2005, 12:02 AM

I suppose people usually do it because the poeps who say that about Lindsey are usually disparaging Stevie, or minimizing her talent. :shrug: Not always, but often.I think about half the reason Lindsey left the group in whenever it was ... '87 ... was Mick Fleetwood, who was a total wreck at that point. The Lindsey-Mick friendship had always been very strong, but at that point it must have virtually disintegrated.

Ghost_Tracker

10-24-2005, 12:03 AM

Exactly.

Stevie writes all the words to her songs and has a general idea of what she wants them to sound like. But for the most part, she's incapable of going from A to B without some massive help on the part of her producers, whoever they may be. I think she should get all the credit possible for being the one to actually give birth to her songs, but they're stillborn without her collaborators (Lindsey, Iovine, Shanks, Crow, etc.), and when discussing her success and her songs, I think it's only fair that they get a decent amount of credit. piano banging that rivaled that of little Timmy's first piano lesson at the age of six, and just a general lack of direction or purpose.

I know this may be true in SOME cases (Gypsy, DAMMIT! :blob2: :] )
but I have some perfect examples for you where this just simply isn't
true, i.m.o. I think the best example to start with is
"Doing the Best That I Can (Escape from Berlin)" on the album
"The Other Side of the Mirror." This was 100% made by Stevie -
she gave it to Rupert Hines "As Is" and asked him not to change it
at all - he listened to it once, loved it and said "uhhh, no problem."
(Or words to that effect.) It's worth giving the song a second listen,
if you've never paid attention to it - i m o it's HIGHLY complex, or
if that's an overstatement, then at least FAIRLY complex, and the
way she BUILDS the sucker is i.m.o. brilliant. And what she seems
to be saying on the surface is not at all what she's really saying, in
fact, what she's really saying is the exact opposite, in a way.
So if you want a perfect example of a complex song which is 100%
Stevie, give another listen to "Doing the Best That I Can." I admit
that it's not a number 1 single, but it's well-loved by many of her fans.
Another one (which is unreleased, so far...) is 24-Karot Gold -
just a piano demo, but it's all Stevie, and it's VERY complex and her
piano playing, while maybe not suitable for Carnegie Hall, is pretty
incredible there. The last one I can think of is the original, pre-
Lindsey demo for "Sisters of the Moon." It's VERY different than the
Tusk version and was in fact an upbeat, happy song back then (I believe
this was recorded before Robin died - pssst! - the song wasn't actually
ABOUT her when she first wrote it ) - and again, while I admit that
it's not Bach or something, it's fairly complex and her piano playing
(as well as her singing) is just plain beautiful. So yeah, I definitely
admit that she's had a lot of help along the way, especially from
Lindsey and other Producers/Arrangers - but I would argue that she
has more talent in that arena than she lets on and simply yields to
people who she knows have "more" talent Arranging and Producing,
for the majority of the time, because she knows her limits.
(Probably Back in the Day, it was also to prevent World War Three
from breaking out in the studio! :rolleyes: :laugh: )

From The Big W.S.:
"When two men ride on a horse,
ONE must ride rind."

( somebody's gotta sit in the back. )

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:06 AM

I always appreciate fine writing, even if I don't think it's worth the paper it's written on.

A compliment AND a bitch slap?

Excellent.

And it appears those Lee press-ons may have been sharpened a bit.

Want milk or half in half in the saucer ?

:wavey:

JazmenFlowers

10-24-2005, 12:06 AM

Sorry to hear that. Do you always get pissed off when people don't agree with you (said without a snarky tone, believe it or not)? Honestly, dude, we're just talking about music. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Agree, disagree. But why get pissed off?

By the way, I love the picture in your sig.
thank you - I appreciate it

David

10-24-2005, 12:06 AM

Another one (which is unreleased, so far...) is 24-Karot Gold -
just a piano demo, but it's all Stevie, and it's VERY complex and her
piano playing, while maybe not suitable for Carnegie Hall, is pretty
incredible there.You're kidding, yes?

Are we being Punk'd? (looks around for camera)

JazmenFlowers

10-24-2005, 12:07 AM

And it appears those Lee press-ons may have been sharpened a bit.

Want milk or half in half in the saucer ?
what in the hell is that supposed to mean Sir?

dissention

10-24-2005, 12:09 AM

A compliment AND a bitch slap?

Excellent.

And it appears those Lee press-ons may have been sharpened a bit.

Want milk or half in half in the saucer ?

:wavey:

OMFG.

We are getting hitched eventually, right?

amber

10-24-2005, 12:09 AM

Well, personal things aside, I think his animus at that time was likely rooted in the professional frustration. My main point in that post was that he was given three steaming heaps of sewage (WISYA, WTTRS and Joan Of Arc...who knows, I think there may have been others, my memory fails me) and one decent song (Seven Wonders), and was expected to make 3 silk purses out of that one piece of standard fabric and three rotted burlap produce bags that were laid before him - all while Stevie was out falling off the stages of every arena in the United States, and a few in Australia. And I suspect that at the time the only communication between her and the band was done to through agents and attorneys. Can you imagine ? I wasn't there, but those facts are fairly well documented. That situation would have made a sane professional go berserk, let alone a coked up musical genius who was trying to make a decent record with one of the singer songwriters giving him swill and not even being there.

I don't doubt he was jealous of her commercial success, but I bet he was more pissed off about having to slave away at making those songs into something that wouldn't humiliate her and the rest of the band. With no help from her. I only recently began to think about this from his point of view.

Oh yeah, completely. A little, nasal, whiny, spoiled bitch of a guy. No argument about that from me.:laugh:

Well, I kind of agree about Tango, but not completely. Also, she wasn't falling off of anything at that point, she had gone to rehab.
And I imagine things were done through agents and attorneys for the usual reasons they always are, plus the reason that Lindsey was an ass to
her. And yes, I can imagine, that is how things are done.
I don't think Linds was coked up at that time.:confused:
Swill - well, I like them okay, but I see your point. But to me they are no worse than You and I, Part Icky.
I think his pissed offedness at doing her songs was a result of his bitter jealousy, and not much of an entity unto itself. Like, I'm sure he didn't mind doing her songs nearly as much when they were together, and when she didn't have a fairly rockin' solo career, and when she wasn't a huge media darling, and when she wasn't boning a bunch of other people.
Whiney bitch - yes, we agree. :laugh:

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:09 AM

I think about half the reason Lindsey left the group in whenever it was ... '87 ... was Mick Fleetwood, who was a total wreck at that point. The Lindsey-Mick friendship had always been very strong, but at that point it must have virtually disintegrated.

As always, you add the genius and the obvious thing everyone has forgotten.

It's true. Mick has admitted he was snorting half of Peru and completely unavailable as well. Lindsey and Christine made the record. And that is my favorite part about it. They had never worked so closely, it seems, and the results were clear and stellar on her tracks.

dissention

10-24-2005, 12:14 AM

Lindsey and Christine made the record. And that is my favorite part about it. They had never worked so closely, it seems, and the results were clear and stellar on her tracks.

I agree. With Christine, he had a musical bond that he didn't have with Stevie and I think that led to some pretty remarkable stuff when they were left alone to bang out songs and material for Tango. Stevie may have had some lousy material on that record, but the other two flourished.

David

10-24-2005, 12:19 AM

Well, I kind of agree about Tango, but not completely. Also, she wasn't falling off of anything at that point, she had gone to rehab.Amber, it depends on what time we're talking about. Remember that she did part of her Tango work (writing & recording) before her own tour, so she was stoned. I mean, that's part of the reason that Fleetwood Mac was such a mess at that point. Lindsey said at that point he didn't even recognize her (not literally, of course).

But she did her tour, cleaned up, & came back to do whatever she could cram into those sessions while the rest of the band was still convened -- before the mixing started. In fact, maybe the mixing had already started. It was pretty late in the process: the album was released in the spring, & she rehabbed some time between the end of 1986 & spring 1987.

Mick was equally wasted, & he didn't go to rehab. All he did was disrupt the recording sessions, & then get the touring ball rolling. I betcha in Mick at that point was a little sadistic glee over getting Lindsey's back to the wall about touring.

amber

10-24-2005, 12:22 AM

I think about half the reason Lindsey left the group in whenever it was ... '87 ... was Mick Fleetwood, who was a total wreck at that point. The Lindsey-Mick friendship had always been very strong, but at that point it must have virtually disintegrated.
Oh, that's right. But Stevie still said Lindsey could absolutely not stand her.
But as far as him leaving, Mick probably had more to do with it. Thanks, Dah-veed.
BTW, just for the record, 24 karat is the worst Stevie demo I've heard next to Amber. And maybe a couple others.

amber

10-24-2005, 12:25 AM

Amber, it depends on what time we're talking about. Remember that she did part of her Tango work (writing & recording) before her own tour, so she was stoned. I mean, that's part of the reason that Fleetwood Mac was such a mess at that point. Lindsey said at that point he didn't even recognize her (not literally, of course).

But she did her tour, cleaned up, & came back to do whatever she could cram into those sessions while the rest of the band was still convened -- before the mixing started. In fact, maybe the mixing had already started. It was pretty late in the process: the album was released in the spring, & she rehabbed some time between the end of 1986 & spring 1987.

Oohhh, I thought she was all clean, then. Even high, she seems nicer than Lindsey on his best days. :laugh: (okay, that's blatent hyperbole, but I think there is a grain of truth there)
But obviously, someone who has moved on, and is not high, does not want to work with a bunch of wacked out cokeheads. Especially if said person is a pot head, which, drug wise, is the antithesis of coke. :laugh: And if anyone says "oh, Lindsey doesn't smoke!" I will kick their bun.

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:26 AM

Well, I kind of agree about Tango, but not completely. Also, she wasn't falling off of anything at that point, she had gone to rehab.

Frank. Frank. They were working on that record for a over a YEAR. (Come on, we are talking about Lindsey here.) They were working during her RAL tour. She came and laid her vocals down for a few weeks after rehab, and that was it. The rest of the record was basically done.

And I imagine things were done through agents and attorneys for the usual reasons they always are

The way the story has been told is that at that point the inclusion of legal representation and management had risen to a level of ridiculousness previously unseen.

I don't think Linds was coked up at that time.:confused:

Okay. I may try and see about that. I think they all were. Though not everyone was at Stevie and Mick's level.

Swill - well, I like them okay, but I see your point. But to me they are no worse than You and I, Part Icky.

OMG. Can you imagine what the demos for WISYA and WTTRS must have sounded like ? :lol: Have you heard the vague scrap of an idea that really isn't a complete song that we call Joan of Arc ?

I think his pissed offedness at doing her songs was a result of his bitter jealousy, and not much of an entity unto itself. Like, I'm sure he didn't mind doing her songs nearly as much when they were together, and when she didn't have a fairly rockin' solo career, and when she wasn't a huge media darling.

Number one, it probably helped when she was actually in the room on those previous records !

Dude, at that time, RAL had been trashed by every major critic. Did you see the woman in crisis illustration from the RS review ? Almost every review of her tour said her voice was in tatters and she was destroying herself. She was falling off the stage she was so f*cked up. The media darling trip was long over. She was well on her downslide on that tour.

I don't think you really absorbed what I wrote - either that or you can't imagine having to fix her wretched material. Or what it was like for the band making the record. But that's okay. You still my Shaniquia.:wavey:

David

10-24-2005, 12:26 AM

It's true. Mick has admitted he was snorting half of Peru and completely unavailable as well.For some reason, Mick was imo trying to see how far he could push Lindsey -- Mick was showing up at virtually every show on Stevie's tour out West. This was at a time when "Fleetwood Mac" is presumably trying to record an album (July & August 1986). Mick even shows up onstage for Stevie's appearance at the Toxics benefit at the end of August, & DOES NOT play with Lindsey. Now, you don't have to be intimately familiar with band politics to know what a slap in the face that is. That really sucks.
Lindsey and Christine made the record.I think that's absolutely true, Spark. If some of those drum tracks on Tango sound artificial or mechanical, it's because they are! When Lindsey talked about having to "fill in" for missing band members, he wasn't just talking about Stevie!

He is talking about everyone in Fleetwood Mac except Chris.

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:28 AM

what in the hell is that supposed to mean Sir?

Surely you jest.

David

10-24-2005, 12:30 AM

Even high, she seems nicer than Lindsey on his best days.Well, you know me -- I love Stevie high.

In fact, I kinda think I love her only when high (not me, her).

amber

10-24-2005, 12:33 AM

Frank. Frank. They were working on that record for a over a YEAR. (Come on, we are talking about Lindsey here.) They were working during her RAL tour. She came and laid her vocals down for a few weeks after rehab, and that was it. The rest of the record was basically done.

The way the story has been told is that at that point the inclusion of legal representation and management had risen to a level of ridiculousness previously unseen.

Okay. I may try and see about that. I think they all were. Though not everyone was at Stevie and Mick's level.

OMG. Can you imagine what the demos for WISYA and WTTRS must have sounded like ? :lol: Have you heard the vague scrap of an idea that really isn't a complete song that we call Joan of Arc ?

Number one, it probably helped when she was actually in the room on those previous records !

Dude, at that time, RAL had been trashed by every major critic. Did you see the woman in crisis illustration from the RS review ? Almost every review of her tour said her voice was in tatters and she was destroying herself. She was falling off the stage she was so f*cked up. The media darling trip was long over. She was well on her downslide on that tour.

I don't think you really absorbed what I wrote - either that or you can't imagine having to fix her wretched material. Or what it was like for the band making the record. But that's okay. You still my Shaniquia.:wavey:

I did absorb, just from a different perspective, the perspective where I know Linds is the kind of person to be a huge ass, and kick her onstage, and imitate her onstage. And also, he's always had to fix her stuff.
I concede all your points here except! - Those songs are not demos????:laugh: Sesly, they're all very spare except seven wonders. I have not heard the demos for them, but I imagine they would be very similar.
I addressed Stevie's RAL coke use in my reply to David, where he set my "Stevie Coke Timeline" straight.
Oh, and though she had fallen from media darling, it was....mainly that one album and tour. And I like the album RAL, and critics aren't always right. And she was still...you know...
But point taken.
And Joan of Arc sucks.

amber

10-24-2005, 12:40 AM

For some reason, Mick was imo trying to see how far he could push Lindsey -- Mick was showing up at virtually every show on Stevie's tour out West. This was at a time when "Fleetwood Mac" is presumably trying to record an album (July & August 1986). Mick even shows up onstage for Stevie's appearance at the Toxics benefit at the end of August, & DOES NOT play with Lindsey. Now, you don't have to be intimately familiar with band politics to know what a slap in the face that is. That really sucks.
I think that's absolutely true, Spark. If some of those drum tracks on Tango sound artificial or mechanical, it's because they are! When Lindsey talked about having to "fill in" for missing band members, he wasn't just talking about Stevie!

He is talking about everyone in Fleetwood Mac except Chris.
Wow, I didn't know about Mick doing that! hahahaha, figures. But of course! who wouldn't? Plus, Stevie and Mick have always had a "special bond". You know, the bond that comes from sneaking and having an affair right under bandmates/ex boyfriend's nose? While doing mountains of coke? Yes, it all makes sense, now.
Lindsey and Chris may own the record, but my fave song on it is still Seven Wonders. Caroline close behind.

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:41 AM

Amber, it depends on what time we're talking about. Remember that she did part of her Tango work (writing & recording) before her own tour, so she was stoned.

You know, I have always wondered about this. The way it is talked about, I always wondered if she really did any recording before the end - or any significant part. The way they talk about having to "piece together" the vocals made me wonder if he just got some demos of her vocals and did some scientific level doctoring of them. Perhaps I have missed an interview or something. God knows Mick's book can't be taken at face value. Is there some interview that talks about her coming in and doing prelim vocal recording ? I never knew for sure.

dissention

10-24-2005, 12:43 AM

You know, I have always wondered about this. The way it is talked about, I always wondered if she really did any recording before the end - or any significant part. The way they talk about having to "piece together" the vocals made me wonder if he just got some demos of her vocals and did some scientific level doctoring of them. Perhaps I have missed an interview or something. God knows Mick's book can't be taken at face value. Is there some interview that talks baout her coming in and doing prelim vocal recording ? I never knew for sure.

Mick's book is as reliable as Judith Miller, but I always got a kick out of that section where Stevie complained about barely being on the record, to which Christine bitched her out and said something like "Whose fault is that?"

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:44 AM

Plus, Stevie and Mick have always had a "special bond". You know, the bond that comes from sneaking and having an affair right under bandmates/ex boyfriend's nose? While doing mountains of coke? Yes, it all makes sense, now.

That ? Is awesome.:lol:

And also, he's always had to fix her stuff.

Lordy, of course he has. I just think this was the weakest, foulest batch he ever had to work with. And under really nasty circumstances.

amber

10-24-2005, 12:45 AM

You know, I have always wondered about this. The way it is talked about, I always wondered if she really did any recording before the end - or any significant part. The way they talk about having to "piece together" the vocals made me wonder if he just got some demos of her vocals and did some scientific level doctoring of them. Perhaps I have missed an interview or something. God knows Mick's book can't be taken at face value. Is there some interview that talks baout her coming in and doing prelim vocal recording ? I never knew for sure.
I wonder, too, and it is deceptive to me that she did a video, and a whole tour. It makes me think she was more committed then she actually may have been at the time of recording.

Nicksluvver

10-24-2005, 12:47 AM

:distress: For some reason, Mick was imo trying to see how far he could push Lindsey -- Mick was showing up at virtually every show on Stevie's tour out West. This was at a time when "Fleetwood Mac" is presumably trying to record an album (July & August 1986). Mick even shows up onstage for Stevie's appearance at the Toxics benefit at the end of August, & DOES NOT play with Lindsey. Now, you don't have to be intimately familiar with band politics to know what a slap in the face that is. That really sucks.
I think that's absolutely true, Spark. If some of those drum tracks on Tango sound artificial or mechanical, it's because they are! When Lindsey talked about having to "fill in" for missing band members, he wasn't just talking about Stevie!

He is talking about everyone in Fleetwood Mac except Chris.

I really agree with your post. Mick it seems was the most out of control one in the band, though they all had their love affair with fame and decadence. IMO starting with Tusk, LB really started to hold the reigns of the making of the music and as SN, MF and JM got less involved with the real buisness of making Mac records, (production and such) LB held on even tighter, which began underneath the surface to piss MF off. He knew he was going crazy partying and that LB was really steering The Mac as a leader (musically), yet Mick was not ready at that point to stop and get things back to a "band". I seem to recall Mick saying years after Tango, that it was LB who got that record done, but its been so long, I cannot remember where I heard this. As far as CM and LB IMO from a musical stand point they were a match made in heaven and CM knew it. CM it seems for the most part kept herself present in the making of the records, not just laying down tracks and then splitting. It is almost like Mirage and Tango are the Buckingham/Christine records - LOL. In my Stevies defense she really was juggling 2 careers and a party schedule. LB really helped her songs out at that time, in the studio doing what he could with what she gave him. Do I think LB was on drugs at the Tango time? I thought he was cleaing up his act at that point.:distress:

amber

10-24-2005, 12:48 AM

That ? Is awesome.:lol:

Lordy, of course he has. I just think this was the weakest, foulest batch he ever had to work with. And under really nasty circumstances.
:laugh: :xoxo:

It appears we've come to an impasse in our discussion where we totally agree. :thumbsup:
I guess I'll just conclude with: Neither one of them hung the goddamned Moon. Perhaps all five of them hung it together. And Chris was the most regular and logical one. And they are all hella lame. Okay, that's it.
Thank you to David for his facts and insight which greatly informed my opinion.

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:48 AM

Mick's book is as reliable as Judith Miller, but I always got a kick out of that section where Stevie complained about barely being on the record, to which Christine bitched her out and said something like "Whose fault is that?"

Christine:lol:

Oh, I am sure all it ever took for her to make a point was one, and I mean ONE phrase.

sparky

10-24-2005, 12:52 AM

And Joan of Arc sucks.

Oh, you are my soul sistah for that. Of all the songs people love, I have never understood what about that song was even a song. Although Christine did some cool keyboard stuff with it.

Johnny Stew

10-24-2005, 12:53 AM

dissention

10-24-2005, 12:53 AM

Ghost_Tracker

10-24-2005, 12:54 AM

You're kidding, yes?

Are we being Punk'd? (looks around for camera)

Uhmmm - No?
WOW though I spoon-fed SO much in that post and you went with
"24-Karot Gold" - INTERESTING! :laugh:
By the way if anybody's wondering, the original topic was
"Would Stevie and Lindsey have been successful had they stayed
in Fritz." Anybody got a map??? :shrug:

amber

10-24-2005, 12:58 AM

Oh, you are my soul sistah for that. Of all the songs people love, I have never understood what about that song was even a song. Although Christine did some cool keyboard stuff with it.
Of course she did. But, I really don't like it, Shaft.

The lyrics and the vocals are quite, well, ****, but I think the whole atmosphere of that particular "song" is quite sinister and unnerving.
By "sinister and unnerving" do you mean "extremely dull and unlistenable"? Because I agree.
:laugh: I haven't heard it in awhile, to be honest, but when I listened to it a couple times, I was appalled. It's one of the songs that made me say "I don't like Stevie's demos, really"

amber

10-24-2005, 01:02 AM

I still think Stevie's 'Tango' songs added depth and pathos to what would have otherwise been a thematically lightweight album.

I also think the rest of FM understood this, and it's why they chose those particular songs, rather than insisting on recording older demos like "Smile At You" or "If You Were My Love" (they had certainly exerted their collective influence on previous albums, regarding which of Stevie's contributions would be fully realized).

And the reviews for her 'Tango' and 'Rock A Little' material weren't all bad. They were a mixed-bag leaning more towards the negative, but that pretty much describes the reviews for all of her albums, except 'TISL' (if I recall, even 'Bella Donna' wasn't reviewed too glowingly).

But I've had these arguments dozens of times before, and can't muster up enough interest to do it again.

Your point about Tango is interesting, and though I don't find most of it her strongest material, I'm inclined to agree with you about the relationship of her material to all the others' songs. It would have been pretty lightweight. Even musically, if that makes sense. It's all "synth and synth drums" except for Stevie's songs. Very metallic. Not that there isn't some really, really good stuff there, but the tone would have been much different. Stevie really does add a lot of warmth. Not her best warmth, but warmth nonetheless. Although, I think Seven Wonders is awesome, even though she didn't write it. And yes, the album is pretty much pathos free except for her contributions. Good call, JS, I didn't think of it in quite that way before.
as for your other points, I have nothing to say. :)

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:03 AM

By "sinister and unnerving" do you mean "extremely dull and unlistenable"? Because I agree.
:laugh:

If I had meant that, I would have used those words, you cockadoodie.

sparky

10-24-2005, 01:04 AM

Of course she did. But, I really don't like it, Shaft.

I love it when you call me that.

By "sinister and unnerving" do you mean "extremely dull and unlistenable"? Because I agree.
:laugh: I haven't heard it in awhile, to be honest, but when I listened to it a couple times, I was appalled. It's one of the songs that made me say "I don't like Stevie's demos, really"

YOU are in rare form tonight and perhaps don't even know it.

APPALLED ?!?:laugh:

OMG.

You're killing me, Larry.

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:07 AM

I still think Stevie's 'Tango' songs added depth and pathos to what would have otherwise been a thematically lightweight album.

Depth is subjective and I can't imagine Lindsey sitting in the studio thinking "My songs aren't deep, they're lightweight. Stevie must add her depth."

amber

10-24-2005, 01:07 AM

I love it when you call me that.

YOU are in rare form tonight and perhaps don't even know it.

APPALLED ?!?:laugh:

OMG.

You're killing me, Larry.
You better mean Larry from Three's Company, or heads will roll!!! :laugh:

Yes, I was actually apalled. Same with 24 karat and Amber. Gross.

Thanks - Can You Diggit? :xoxo:

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:09 AM

Same with 24 karat

That one is so bad that I almost sought out a hypnotherapist to help me forget about it. Ten gallons of crap in a five gallon bucket, it is. I don't think I've ever listened to any version of it in its entirety.

amber

10-24-2005, 01:11 AM

If I had meant that, I would have used those words, you cockadoodie.
:xoxo:
I know, sweets, I was being a smart ass. But a smartass with a point, the point being that I really don't like that demo!!!!
I'm glad you found something a bit extra and special in it, though.

And, I don't think that Linds was sitting around thinking "oh, my songs aren't deep!" - It's just the way his songs sound, due to his production. Whereas, Stevie's songs here aren't very overproduced, which makes them sound deeper, and with more pathos. Lindsey's songs do sound very metallic to me on Tango, though some of the lyrics are deep.
Not as abstractly pathos filled as Stevie's, mind you, but deep nonetheless. :)

amber

10-24-2005, 01:13 AM

That one is so bad that I almost sought out a hypnotherapist to help me forget about it. Ten gallons of crap in a five gallon bucket, it is. I don't think I've ever listened to any version of it in its entirety.
DUDE!!! I KNOW!!! :eek: :xoxo: I was sad on the day I heard that. :( I was like "oh, she really can be uber craptastic" - thank goodness she didn't release it.
Amber too, I think it's terrible, although that was very early in her career, to be fair. Still, Suck 0 Rama.

amber

10-24-2005, 01:16 AM

Wait, did you say "Cockadoodie"???? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Johnny Stew

10-24-2005, 01:17 AM

Depth is subjective and I can't imagine Lindsey sitting in the studio thinking "My songs aren't deep, they're lightweight. Stevie must add her depth."I didn't say he did. But I think they chose those particular songs for a reason, and I assume they must have liked them. I can't imagine them recording them if they had absolutely hated them. Especially when it would have been just as easy to say, "thanks for the new demos, Stevie, but we decided to go in a different direction, and we want you to record a new vocal for 'Smile At You' instead."
Or any number of great songs that were still only demos at that point in time.

:shrug:

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:17 AM

DUDE!!! I KNOW!!! :eek: :xoxo: I was sad on the day I heard that. :( I was like "oh, she really can be uber craptastic" - thank goodness she didn't release it.
Amber too, I think it's terrible, although that was very early in her career, to be fair. Still, Suck 0 Rama.

I'm with you in thinking that most of her demos are torturous. The piano ones are especially whoreanus. There should be a law against abusing instruments like she does. I shall lobby Congress to make the acts of torture she perpetrates on her pianos illegal. We must be decisive and merciless. Help me bring about this course of action before it's too late, Amber!!

Or we can hitch to Phoenix and just bind her fingers together.

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:18 AM

Wait, did you say "Cockadoodie"???? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, I did, you dirty birdie. Now pass me some of that bitchly cow feed!

amber

10-24-2005, 01:22 AM

I'm with you in thinking that most of her demos are torturous. The piano ones are especially whoreanus. There should be a law against abusing instruments like she does. I shall lobby Congress to make the acts of torture she perpetrates on her pianos illegal. We must be decisive and merciless. Help me bring about this course of action before it's too late, Amber!!

Or we can hitch to Phoenix and just bind her fingers together.
I'd like to, but I would be a hypocrite. i like some of the demos. And - I've heard demos where she is not playing the piani, and it still sounds like she is. Notably, the "Blue Lamp talking" demo.
And I've just admitted to liking "Blue Water" and...another one..."I could not love you enough" or something. So that's two demos I like, at least - that may be two to many to tie her fingers together.
I could support a partial ban...:laugh:

sparky

10-24-2005, 01:23 AM

Depth is subjective and I can't imagine Lindsey sitting in the studio thinking "My songs aren't deep, they're lightweight. Stevie must add her depth."

You know, this brings up an interesting point. Since all the other songs were so "poppy", why didn't they use one of the older Stevie songs that was more "light" ? She always says all her demos and songs were available to them. I wonder if this time she gave them these four and that was it ? I am assuming that was what happened, but would love to know the truth.
Also, I suppose WTTRS had to have been done last, considering it was this big rehab thing. I wonder if the musical track was done for a different song ? And what of that Book Of Miracles thing ? If this is so, then Joan must have actually been a possibility for inclusion on the record.:shocked:

So many questions. Where is David ?

This all makes me want a cocktail.

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:24 AM

I'd like to, but I would be a hypocrite. i like some of the demos. And - I've heard demos where she is not playing the piani, and it still sounds like she is. Notably, the "Blue Lamp talking" demo.
And I've just admitted to liking "Blue Water" and...another one..."I could not love you enough" or something.
I could support a partial ban...:laugh:

I knew you'd wuss out. :cool:

I'm sure I'll have plenty of luck finding some Resmuglican lawmakers who would just love to sock it to that Clinton-loving witch.

dissention

10-24-2005, 01:26 AM

You know, this brings up an interesting point. Since all the other songs were so "poppy", why didn't they use one of the older Stevie songs that was more "light" ? She always says all her demos and songs were available to them. I wonder if this time she gave them these four and that was it ? I am assuming that was what happened, but would love to know the truth.
Also, I suppose WTTRS had to have been done last, considering it was this big rehab thing. I wonder if the musical track was done for a different song ? And what of that Book Of Miracles thing ? If this is so, then Joan must have actually been a possibility for inclusion on the record.:shocked:

So many questions. Where is David ?

This all makes me want a cocktail.

Don't forget that she offered up that masterpiece "What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done For You?"

EVERYTHING!!

sparky

10-24-2005, 01:33 AM

Don't forget that she offered up that masterpiece "What Has Rock and Roll Ever Done For You?"

EVERYTHING!!

Dammit. I knew I forgot one. She even mentioned that one in interviews and talked it up. I have that and Joan somewhere here on a piece of crap demo cd I bought from someone on ebay. It skips. It always did. I am gonna get it out.

amber

10-24-2005, 01:43 AM

I knew you'd wuss out. :cool:

I'm sure I'll have plenty of luck finding some Resmuglican lawmakers who would just love to sock it to that Clinton-loving witch.
Wuss out!?! I said I'd support a limited ban on crappy demos! :shrug:
Oh, memo to Diss, I like Stevie. A full scale attack is simply not an option. :laugh:

sparky

10-24-2005, 01:50 AM

Wuss out!?! I said I'd support a limited ban on crappy demos! :shrug:
Oh, memo to Diss, I like Stevie. A full scale attack is simply not an option. :laugh:

You are a hoot.

I am listening to Joan of Arc right now.

"There's a few martyrs in a century
They take a limousine because everything else is taken care of"

Oh, man.

amber

10-24-2005, 01:54 AM

You are a hoot.

I am listening to Joan of Arc right now.

"There's a few martyrs in a century
They take a limousine because everything else is taken care of"

Oh, man.

WHAT?! WHAT?! Those are the actual words?
oh.my.god.
I'd forgotten the words, just knew I didn't like it.
Martyrs who take Limos? Is she kidding us? :laugh: :laugh:
Oh, what a great night.
Thank goodness that was not released. I can't believe she really said that, and even recorded a tune to it.

sparky

10-24-2005, 01:59 AM

WHAT?! WHAT?! Those are the actual words?
oh.my.god.
I'd forgotten the words, just knew I didn't like it.
Martyrs who take Limos? Is she kidding us? :laugh: :laugh:
Oh, what a great night.
Thank goodness that was not released. I can't believe she really said that, and even recorded a tune to it.

The next line is

"And they don't even know what they died for"

The killer ? There is a skip in it too. The music and drum programming is kind of cool. And her voice isn't bad. But, OMG. If it didn't have this annoying skip I would try and post it.

It is really bugging me because I thought that "What Has Rock And Roll Ever Done For You" was on this cd too. Damn.

amber

10-24-2005, 02:22 AM

The next line is

"And they don't even know what they died for"

The killer ? There is a skip in it too. The music and drum programming is kind of cool. And her voice isn't bad. But, OMG. If it didn't have this annoying skip I would try and post it.

It is really bugging me because I thought that "What Has Rock And Roll Ever Done For You" was on this cd too. Damn.

:lol:

Um. People in limosines aren't martyrs that die for things, unless I have been sadly misinformed.
Wow. That's just stevie freeballing, I mean stream of consciousness writing. And in this case she is no Kerouac. :laugh:
I have WHRAREDFY if you "need" it. :)

Johnny Stew

10-24-2005, 02:56 AM

Martyrs who take Limos? Is she kidding us? :laugh: :laugh:

Um. People in limosines aren't martyrs that die for things, unless I have been sadly misinformed.It's my personal opinion that Stevie was being cynical (in her characteristically melodramatic way) with these lyrics....

They wanted images, when images were unspoken.
They depended upon illusion... calling the illusion, "gold and glitter."
They came in tired, and they said tired was "the end of the line."

and

Well, there's a few "martyrs" in our century.
They take a limosine, because everything else is taken care of.
And they don't even know what they "died" for....

In her 'Rock A Little' interview with Jim Ladd, Stevie talked about her famous and talented male friends, and how they had very little motivation or ambition, and how it always drove her crazy that they were perfectly happy to just lay around and be waited on, rather than using their time to create more songs. She said that she'd practically have to drag them to their guitar or piano, to get them to write something.

So I feel she was commenting on the general nature of spoiled and pampered rock stars... and I think, from the lyrics, that she knew she was indicting herself in the process.

Of course, the last time I voiced that interpretation, it was thoroughly and resoundly shot down, without so much as a second thought. :shrug:

sparky

10-24-2005, 03:18 AM

It's my personal opinion that Stevie was being cynical (in her characteristically melodramatic way) with these lyrics....

They wanted images, when images were unspoken.
They depended upon illusion... calling the illusion, "gold and glitter."
They came in tired, and they said tired was "the end of the line."

and

Well, there's a few "martyrs" in our century.
They take a limosine, because everything else is taken care of.
And they don't even know what they "died" for....

In her 'Rock A Little' interview with Jim Ladd, Stevie talked about her famous and talented male friends, and how they had very little motivation or ambition, and how it always drove her crazy that they were perfectly happy to just lay around and be waited on, rather than using their time to create more songs. She said that she'd practically have to drag them to their guitar or piano, to get them to write something.

So I feel she was commenting on the general nature of spoiled and pampered rock stars... and I think, from the lyrics, that she knew she was indicting herself in the process.

I will acknowledge it is an almost certainly fruitless waste of time for me to get in a discussion with you about such things and that I will almost certainly regret it - but I think you are assuming a lot with your quotation marks in the lyrics and the assumption that this song was written about that particular subject. You must admit that using a such a loaded historical figure in comparison to rock stars is a bit of a stretch.

Of course, the last time I voiced that interpretation, it was thoroughly and resoundly shot down, without so much as a second thought. :shrug:

I never heard the theory before, but I can't imagine that during RAL that she was lucid enough to go that far with a historical cross reference. Even if she was, man, it takes a lot of work to justify it. It is convoluted even for her.
I might give more leeway if she shifted perspective and said,

"She came in tired, and they said that tired was the end if the line."

Or "I came in tired."

Who are the two they's ?

It is nonsensical, as I said, even for Stevie.

I posit that she was such a disaster that she couldn't write a cohesive song.
Which is why there is a Sandy Stewart song on a Fleetwood Mac record.

Do I feel for her as a person ? Certainly I do.

It's still bad writing.

Johnny Stew

10-24-2005, 03:44 AM

I will acknowledge it is an almost certainly fruitless waste of time for me to get in a discussion with you about such things and that I will almost certainly regret it - No worries... I don't have a desire to debate this stuff with you or anyone else anymore. Minds are resolutely made up on all sides with no room allotted for looking at something from a different perspective, so we'd just end up going around and around in increasingly tiresome circles.

Just thought I'd post my interpretation once more, in the off-chance that someone out there might find something of interest in it.

sparky

10-24-2005, 03:59 AM

No worries... I don't have a desire to debate this stuff with you or anyone else anymore. Minds are resolutely made up on all sides with no room allotted for looking at something from a different perspective, so we'd just end up going around and around in increasingly tiresome circles.

Just thought I'd post my interpretation once more, in the off-chance that someone out there might find something of interest in it.

Okay. I thought maybe there was something about Joan Of Arc the historical figure that I didn't know that might shed some light on this as some kind relevant allegorical statement. I am certainly interested in something that might help make some kind of sense of this song. But, God Knows the last thing on earth I am interested in is a debate with you over Stevie's Tango songs.

Johnny Stew

10-24-2005, 04:21 AM

"She came in tired, and they said that tired was the end if the line."

Or "I came in tired."

Who are the two they's ?I meant to comment on this in my first response.
When you asked "who are the two 'they's'," I take it you're referring to her use of "they" twice in the line, "They came in tired, and they said tired was the end of the line"?

She's not referring to two separate "they's," but rather the same "they."
In one of the other outtake versions/demos, she sings it as, "They came in tired -- saying tired was just the end of the line."

Just wanted to clarify that, though I realize it won't make a difference.

Kelly

10-24-2005, 10:20 AM

Uhmmm, I'm probably gotta get slammed for this, and I just
love 'er ta death but -
Gypsy?
All Lindsey....
Almost 100%.
She's brilliant -
But Gypsy?
I know the words mean a lot to her and that she wrote them -
but the song itself?
Lindsey. :blob2: :shocked:

OMG..you are gonna get slammed for that one. I agree though...he influenced that song immensely. There is a reason he sites Gypsy as the most important song he ever produced for her.

David

10-24-2005, 11:59 AM

Your point about Tango is interesting, and though I don't find most of it her strongest material, I'm inclined to agree with you about the relationship of her material to all the others' songs.When I See You Again is the most powerful Fleetwood Mac track of the 1980s.

amber

10-24-2005, 12:07 PM

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 12:09 PM

When I See You Again is the most powerful Fleetwood Mac track of the 1980s.

It is up there, that is for sure. I just think the production was not that great and LB should have restrained her Baby fest.

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 12:12 PM

OMG..you are gonna get slammed for that one. I agree though...he influenced that song immensely. There is a reason he sites Gypsy as the most important song he ever produced for her.

Oh I agree that he produced it to perfection for a reason and that song went throuigh numberous incarnations prior to the final album cut.

But, I am unsure if it is about him. I think the bright eyes are her own eyes in that Sister of the Moon and IMO GDW way - In other words, the gypsy that remains is Stevie Nicks.

I do think though that the reason he paid so much attention to it was because she is singing about the girl he fell in love with, not what she had become.

David

10-24-2005, 12:13 PM

thanks, stew. that does make more sense than her actually saying that, you know, without irony?Jim asked her what "priest of nothing" meant. I thought it was some sort of monastic order hitherto unheard of. . . maybe the Order of the Garters or something.

Stevie then said she was a priestess of "way too much": How many concerts can I do? How many hospitals can I visit? How many recording sessions can I do? How many photo shoots can I do? How many interviews can I do?

Poor lady just ran herself ragged. :cool:

Why couldn't she just kick back & enjoy herself, like all of us who skip off to work Monday through Friday at 8 in the morning with a smile on our faces & a euphoric bounce in our steps?

David

10-24-2005, 12:18 PM

I do think though that the reason he paid so much attention to it was because she is singing about the girl he fell in love with, not what she had become.I think he put a lot of work into it because he concocted some great ideas -- the pentatonic figure, for example -- & got a great rhythm track from John & Mick, & when you're a great arranger & engineer & you get amazing things recorded, you get excited & keep running with it.

But I've always been one for demystifying the dialectic. Where some fans see great wrenching emotional upheavals being instrumental in songcraft & recordcraft, I often see happenstance or at most a spirited experimentation.

What AM I talking about . . . ? It's ten o'clock in the morn.

amber

10-24-2005, 12:26 PM

Jim asked her what "priest of nothing" meant. I thought it was some sort of monastic order hitherto unheard of. . . maybe the Order of the Garters or something.

Stevie then said she was a priestess of "way too much": How many concerts can I do? How many hospitals can I visit? How many recording sessions can I do? How many photo shoots can I do? How many interviews can I do?

Poor lady just ran herself ragged. :cool:

Why couldn't she just kick back & enjoy herself, like all of us who skip off to work Monday through Friday at 8 in the morning with a smile on our faces & a euphoric bounce in our steps?

:lol:

yep. I would hate if I had to do concerts and interviews and photo shoots and recording sessions.

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 12:29 PM

I think he put a lot of work into it because he concocted some great ideas -- the pentatonic figure, for example -- & got a great rhythm track from John & Mick, & when you're a great arranger & engineer & you get amazing things recorded, you get excited & keep running with it.

But I've always been one for demystifying the dialectic. Where some fans see great wrenching emotional upheavals being instrumental in songcraft & recordcraft, I often see happenstance or at most a spirited experimentation.

What AM I talking about . . . ? It's ten o'clock in the morn.

Yes you are and you are making sense, though I think LB saw something extra in this song and went with it and through many other versions before reaching this one.

seekerj

10-24-2005, 12:32 PM

Can you confirm this? Ive heard different views saying that she was not on klonopin during the recording of OSOTM......

I think it's mentioned on Stevie's vh1's "Behind The Music". A doctor put her on Klonopin after she kicked cocaine as a way of keeping her from going back to cocaine. This has also been mentioned in interviews. I know in one interview she says that she was still able to do one album she was proud of, her "magic" album (TOSOTM), despite the Klonopin. I will try to locate the interview.

Besides, if Klonopin didn't appear until the making of Street Angel (earl 1990's), why would she be put on something to keep her off cocaine so many years after she quit (1986)?

Can you point me to interviews where it mentions that she wasn't put on Klonopin until the making of Street Angel? Maybe I misunderstood.

Can any other Ledgies help with any information about this?

Thanks!
- Jim

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 12:34 PM

David

10-24-2005, 01:51 PM

She said most of OSOTM was written prior to the geater effects of the Klonopin, which I think began to happen at some point during the recording of OSOTM and certainly they were there for some of the concerts I saw :eek:I think I agree with you here. She was probably recording much of "Mirror" in 1988, & I think she was already taking the tranquilizers by then. She may have been taking them as far back as the Tango Tour. To me, her interspersed closeup footage from the Cow Palace looked tranquilized. And she was definitely tranquilized by the time of the 1989 solo tour. Those were really some tranquil nights!

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 01:57 PM

I think I agree with you here. She was probably recording much of "Mirror" in 1988, & I think she was already taking the tranquilizers by then. She may have been taking them as far back as the Tango Tour. To me, her interspersed closeup footage from the Cow Palace looked tranquilized. And she was definitely tranquilized by the time of the 1989 solo tour. Those were really some tranquil nights!

She had some cool moments on the Tango tour, but I think she was scared onstage because she had to go out there "alone" for the first time in over a decade.

AliP

10-24-2005, 02:28 PM

But, I am unsure if it is about him. I think the bright eyes are her own eyes in that Sister of the Moon and IMO GDW way - In other words, the gypsy that remains is Stevie Nicks.

I do think though that the reason he paid so much attention to it was because she is singing about the girl he fell in love with, not what she had become.

I think the "bright eyes" are Robin's eyes, not Stevie's eyes. I also think that the reason Lindsey paid so much attention to the song is because of Robin. According to Stevie (which, of course, we can't rely too much on what she says) she and Robin and Lindsey all lived together in the BN days or something like that. Robin was always around. I think that Lindsey was probably close to Robin too or at least cared alot about her and was deeply saddened by her death.

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 02:36 PM

I think the "bright eyes" are Robin's eyes, not Stevie's eyes. I also think that the reason Lindsey paid so much attention to the song is because of Robin. According to Stevie (which, of course, we can't rely too much on what she says) she and Robin and Lindsey all lived together in the BN days or something like that. Robin was always around. I think that Lindsey was probably close to Robin too or at least cared alot about her and was deeply saddened by her death.

I think there is a lot of Robin in that song as well. However, if that song was considered for BD, the lyrics would have to come from the Tusk era writings or earlier. Robin died after BD was released. But, I do agree she is in there.

AliP

10-24-2005, 03:12 PM

I think there is a lot of Robin in that song as well. However, if that song was considered for BD, the lyrics would have to come from the Tusk era writings or earlier. Robin died after BD was released. But, I do agree she is in there.

I was just curious...does anyone know when Robin was diagnosed with cancer?? Was she diagnosed as early as '80?

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 03:15 PM

I was just curious...does anyone know when Robin was diagnosed with cancer?? Was she diagnosed as early as '80?

Here is some info.

http://www.inherownwords.com/art.htm

David

10-24-2005, 03:27 PM

I was just curious...does anyone know when Robin was diagnosed with cancer?? Was she diagnosed as early as '80?No. She was diagnosed around the time that "Bella" was released -- July '81. Stevie said she got a phone call from Robin or someone during the "Bella" release party.

She died about 14 months later.

amber

10-24-2005, 03:32 PM

No. She was diagnosed around the time that "Bella" was released -- July '81. Stevie said she got a phone call from Robin or someone during the "Bella" release party.

She died about 14 months later.
Didn't Stevie say in behind the music that the very same day Belladonna hit number one was the day she found out Robin had cancer? ("So, I never really got to enjoy Belladonna, because my best friend was dying. Something went out that day", etc.) I'm pretty sure she says that.

David

10-24-2005, 03:35 PM

Didn't Stevie say in behind the music that the very same day Belladonna hit number one was the day she found out Robin had cancer? ("So, I never really got to enjoy Belladonna, because my best friend was dying. Something went out that day", etc.) I'm pretty sure she says that.She did.

She also once said she got this phone call with Robin's diagnosis during the release party for the album.

I guess we get to take our pick! :thumbsup:

amber

10-24-2005, 03:36 PM

She did.

She also once said she got this phone call with Robin's diagnosis during the release party for the album.

I guess we get to take our pick! :thumbsup:

Ah, I love all the choices Stevie leaves us. We can really bring in our own creativity.

lagringader&r

10-24-2005, 04:41 PM

She did.

She also once said she got this phone call with Robin's diagnosis during the release party for the album.

I guess we get to take our pick! :thumbsup:

I thought she said the same day Belladonna hit number one was the day she found out Robin was dying. Found out. Not the day she died.

amber

10-24-2005, 04:57 PM

I thought she said the same day Belladonna hit number one was the day she found out Robin was dying. Found out. Not the day she died.
that's what I just said in the post he was responding to. :wavey:

lagringader&r

10-24-2005, 05:21 PM

that's what I just said in the post he was responding to. :wavey:

Oops, sorry. I didn't read that right.

SteveMacD

10-24-2005, 06:53 PM

Regarding why Lindsey quit:

1. You had Stevie who'd become this burned-out diva who was giving him weak material that he had to make acceptable. There was a lot of frustration as a producer. But, that she had become this person he barely recognized, a woman whom he had known for over twenty years, and a woman with whom he felt a certain competitiveness had to be unbearable.

2. John had become such a heavy drinker that he was unavailable for a lot of the recording, and eventually had to go through rehab.

3. Mick was coked out of his goddamned skull and was acting the fool.

4. No matter how brilliant HIS material was, it was still Christine who was going to have the hits.

Being in Fleetwood Mac was an assault on his ego and his sanity all at the same time. Whether or not he's a whiney-ass little bitch has nothing to do with it. Any sane person in that situation would have done the same thing. BTW, Lindsey was never much of a coke head, though he IS a big pot head. (Now, do we really have to discuss this any further.)

gldstwmn

10-24-2005, 10:00 PM

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 10:10 PM

. . . BTW, Lindsey was never much of a coke head, though he IS a big pot head. (Now, do we really have to discuss this any further.)

Well, we will never know the extent of LB's drug use. All we have is his word and do you ever notice how he never really reveals anything about himself that might be considered bad. I mean others in the band had said things that indicate LB was into it and his girlfriend was an addict. So, I tend to think LB was way into it as well. I say this not as an insult to him, but as a my theory and how I support it.

As for him quitting. I think it was an a$$hole thing of him to do before a booked or essentially booked tour. Touring is part of the commitment. I mean La Nicks probably did not want to be there as well, but she stuck it out and CM had been wanting to quit touring for years and she stuck it out.

gldstwmn

10-24-2005, 11:16 PM

I think I agree with you here. She was probably recording much of "Mirror" in 1988, & I think she was already taking the tranquilizers by then. She may have been taking them as far back as the Tango Tour. To me, her interspersed closeup footage from the Cow Palace looked tranquilized. And she was definitely tranquilized by the time of the 1989 solo tour. Those were really some tranquil nights!

Tell me about it. She made it here around October '89 and was just zonked.

gldstwmn

10-24-2005, 11:18 PM

I think the "bright eyes" are Robin's eyes, not Stevie's eyes.

Bingo. I've always felt the same.

gldstwmn

10-24-2005, 11:20 PM

I was just curious...does anyone know when Robin was diagnosed with cancer?? Was she diagnosed as early as '80?

Does anyone know date of the Mirage era conversations boot? That's where Stevie talks about her and Sara going to visit Robin in the hospital.

strandinthewind

10-24-2005, 11:25 PM

Bingo. I've always felt the same.

Interstingly, I do not think the bight eyes line is in the in that rockin' demo and the piano demo. So, maybe it became that. But, she def. says that in the later quotes.

Here are some cool quotes on this:

All the characters in my songs ~ the Gypsies, the Saras, and the on this album, Alice and Juliet ~ they're all me. But they're all different sides of me.
~Stevie Nicks, interview in Revolution, November, 1989

Gypsy is about um ...going back to the gypsy that I was prior to Fleetwood Mac.
~Stevie Nicks, Rock's Family Tree

Yes in my uh Doheny house - in my English house. I just uh.. I went through an experience that wasn't particularly pleasant and I moved out of my big English bedroom into the little back bedroom that was all...the lady that owned this house had put all this French wallpaper up that was flowers and it was beautifully, beautifully done. It's just a little tiny room and put my bed back on the floor, moved my JBLs [speakers] in there, all my plants... all my junk, everything I had into this tiny little room about as big as this sofa, you know and I just lived in there for about 3 months. And I, it was really like living back in my apartment before I joined Fleetwood Mac...it was ...I'm very comfortable living in one little room with my bed on the floor and kind of lace tacked up at the windows, you know.

[A place where you felt secure and safe or comfortable?] And back to me, back to ...you know, uh back to learning to live alone again. Back to the gypsy.
~Stevie Nicks, Jim Ladd Innerview, 1982

In the song Gypsy it says, Going back to the velvet underground/ Back to the floor... which means my bed went back on the floor, with the paper flowers and the, you know, there's a part of that that [era] there will never be again ...except that it does live in my house because it was so special.
~Stevie Nicks, Video Interview for Fleetwood Mac's Greatest Hits (1988) as cited in Mirror Mirror, Issue 3

[On being a gypsy] The clothes I wear... that doesn't change. I love long dresses. I love velvet. I love high boots. I never change. I love the same eye make-up. I'm not a fad person. I still have everything I had then. That's one part of me... that's where my songs come from. There's a song on the new Fleetwood Mac album [Mirage] that says, 'Going back to the velvet underground/back to the floor that I love,' because I always put my bed on the floor. 'To a room with some lace and paper flowers/ back to the gypsy that I was.' And that's San Francisco. That's the Velvet Underground. Those are the things that I can't give up.
~Stevie Nicks, The Record, February 1982

For me to be a gypsy; for me to write about the gypsy - and for me to live the life of a gypsy that I love - I sort of almost have to be almost cold and insensitive to be able to remain that gypsy. It's not easy to be a hippie-gypsy when you're rich and when you're a rock'n'roll star.
~Stevie Nicks, Jim Ladd Innerview, 1983

Dreams was a very real song. Gypsy was very real.
~Stevie Nicks, BBC Interview, 1989

The song Gypsy isn't a real happy story. Gypsy is a lot about returning to San Francisco. And Gypsy was written when my best friend [Robin] died of Leukemia and uh ...about the fact that she wasn't going to see the rest of this: I still see your bright eyes, it was like she wasn't ...going to make it. And uh, I was like the lone gypsy ~ this was my best friend from when I was 15 and so I was a solo gypsy all of a sudden and it was very sad for me and that's sometimes when I write my very best songs.

Robin had been on the road with Fleetwood Mac for five years. As my speech therapist and also management, an incredibly efficient helper. I still miss your bright eyes ~ that's why we don't do it on stage ~ it's because it's really too hard for me to sing. Lightening strikes maybe once, maybe twice... that means one time in your life you find a very good friend, and maybe if you're incredibly lucky, you might find a second. It all comes down to you, means but you have to look very hard.
~Stevie Nicks, video interview for Fleetwood Mac's Greatest Hits (1988)

You also, I think, know this girl. I knew her [Robin]. And she's still here so I guess... New York was our favorite place, so....

~Stevie Nicks, introduction to the song Gypsy on the Radio City Show of the Wild Heart Tour, September 13, 1983

http://www.inherownwords.com/gypsy.htm (as always kudos to this great site!!!! )