Senate Again Fails to Raise Minimum Wage

[dissention]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051019/ap_on_go_co/minimum_wage_1

By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer 35 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The Senate on Wednesday defeated a proposal to raise the minimum wage, rejecting arguments by Democrats that the current floor, $5.15 an hour for the past eight years, was perpetuating poverty.

The proposal by Sen. Edward Kennedy (news, bio, voting record) to raise the lowest wage by $1.10 over an 18-month period was defeated on a near-partyline vote of 51-47 vote.

The Senate was also voting Wednesday on a Republican alternative that combined the same $1.10 increase with various breaks and exemptions for small businesses. It was expected to lose.

Kennedy, D-Mass., said Hurricane Katrina demonstrated the depth of poverty in the country and he pointed out that a single parent with two children working a minimum wage earns $10,700 a year, $4,500 below the poverty line.

He said it was "absolutely unconscionable" that in the same period that Congress has denied a minimum wage increase, lawmakers have voted themselves seven pay raises worth $28,000.

Kennedy, who has campaigned relentlessly for a minimum wage increase, picked up one vote from the 46 votes for a similar measure in March. On Tuesday he modified his proposal, which originally called for a $2.15 increase over 26 months, in hopes of attracting more Republicans.

The first minimum wage of 25 cents an hour was enacted under President Roosevelt in 1938. Congress has since voted eight times to increase it, including under Republican presidents Eisenhower, Ford and George H.W. Bush. Congress approved the last increase in 1996, with the second stage, boosting the rate to $5.15, taking effect in 1997.

Sixteen states and the District of Columbia have minimum wages higher than the national level, including Washington State at $7.35, according to the Labor Department. Twenty-six states are the same as the federal level; two — Ohio and Kansas — are below; and six do not have state laws.

Also on Wednesday, Sens. Jack Reed, D-R.I., and Susan Collins, R-Maine, proposed adding $3.1 billion to the administration's $2 billion request this year for emergency heating assistance for low income families.

"We're about see a second tidal surge from Katrina and Rita," with rising energy costs, Reed said.

A vote could take place Thursday, with GOP leaders saying an emergency spending bill to be taken up soon was a better venue for the heating assistance debate.

Alabama

Sessions (R) No; Shelby (R) No.

Alaska

Murkowski (R) No; Stevens (R) No.

Arizona

Kyl (R) No; McCain (R) No.

Arkansas

Lincoln (D) Yes; Pryor (D) Yes.

California

Boxer (D) Yes; Feinstein (D) Yes.

Colorado

Allard (R) No; Salazar (D) Yes.

Connecticut

Dodd (D) Yes; Lieberman (D) Yes.

Delaware

Biden (D) Yes; Carper (D) Yes.

Florida

Martinez (R) No; Nelson (D) Yes.

Georgia

Chambliss (R) No; Isakson (R) No.

Hawaii

Akaka (D) Yes; Inouye (D) Not Voting.

Idaho

Craig (R) No; Crapo (R) No.

Illinois

Durbin (D) Yes; Obama (D) Yes.

Indiana

Bayh (D) Yes; Lugar (R) No.

Iowa

Grassley (R) No; Harkin (D) Yes.

Kansas

Brownback (R) No; Roberts (R) No.

Kentucky

Bunning (R) No; McConnell (R) No.

Louisiana

Landrieu (D) Yes; Vitter (R) No.

Maine

Collins (R) No; Snowe (R) No.

Maryland

Mikulski (D) Yes; Sarbanes (D) Yes.

Massachusetts

Kennedy (D) Yes; Kerry (D) Yes.

Michigan

Levin (D) Yes; Stabenow (D) Yes.

Minnesota

Coleman (R) No; Dayton (D) Yes.

Mississippi

Cochran (R) No; Lott (R) No.

Missouri

Bond (R) No; Talent (R) No.

Montana

Baucus (D) Yes; Burns (R) No.

Nebraska

Hagel (R) No; Nelson (D) Yes.

Nevada

Ensign (R) No; Reid (D) Yes.

New Hampshire

Gregg (R) No; Sununu (R) No.

New Jersey

Corzine (D) Not Voting; Lautenberg (D) Yes.

New Mexico

Bingaman (D) Yes; Domenici (R) No.

New York

Clinton (D) Yes; Schumer (D) Yes.

North Carolina

Burr (R) No; Dole (R) No.

North Dakota

Conrad (D) Yes; Dorgan (D) Yes.

Ohio

DeWine (R) Yes; Voinovich (R) No.

Oklahoma

Coburn (R) No; Inhofe (R) No.

Oregon

Smith (R) No; Wyden (D) Yes.

Pennsylvania

Santorum (R) Yes; Specter (R) Yes.

Rhode Island

Chafee (R) Yes; Reed (D) Yes.

South Carolina

DeMint (R) No; Graham (R) No.

South Dakota

Johnson (D) Yes; Thune (R) No.

Tennessee

Alexander (R) No; Frist (R) No.

Texas

Cornyn (R) No; Hutchison (R) No.

Utah

Bennett (R) No; Hatch (R) No.

Vermont

Jeffords (I) Yes; Leahy (D) Yes.

Virginia

Allen (R) No; Warner (R) No.

Washington

Cantwell (D) Yes; Murray (D) Yes.

West Virginia

Byrd (D) Yes; Rockefeller (D) Yes.

Wisconsin

Feingold (D) Yes; Kohl (D) Yes.

Wyoming

Enzi (R) No; Thomas (R) No.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

North Carolina

Burr (R) No; Dole (R) No.

I love my NC!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Hey Joshy...I have a question.


I just got the Wildflower CD/DVD deluxe set. When I put the DVD into my DVD player, the only "special" feature that I am getting is the video for "Good is Good". Where is the acoustic tracks and the DVD quality tracks?

[Jyqm]

And of all the Republicans to vote for it, it was Santorum and Specter of Pennsylvania. I wonder why that is.

I'd also like to see the Republican alternative and find out what kinds of breaks and exemptions are leading Democrats to reject it.

[Richard B]

North Carolina

Burr (R) No; Dole (R) No.

I love my NC!
That's because the cost of living is low in NC and in quite a few other states that voted N. Try living on min wage in CA or NY.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

That's because the cost of living is low in NC and in quite a few other states that voted N. Try living on min wage in CA or NY.

Oh I would LOVE to live in NY. :nod:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And of all the Republicans to vote for it, it was Santorum and Specter of Pennsylvania. I wonder why that is.

I'd also like to see the Republican alternative and find out what kinds of breaks and exemptions are leading Democrats to reject it.

Experience proves that the minimum wage hurts more people than it helps.

[Jyqm]

Oh I would LOVE to live in NY. :nod:

I've got to hand it to you, you really are absolutely brilliant when it comes to completely avoiding an issue that someone brings up. I suppose you learn from the best.

A general question to anyone, since I must admit I'm not terribly well-versed on the ins and outs of this: Do any states have their own minimum wages that are higher than the national minimum wage? And if not, why not? Is this something that state legislatures are not allowed to do?

[dissention]

And of all the Republicans to vote for it, it was Santorum and Specter of Pennsylvania. I wonder why that is.

I would have thought that Santorum would have voted against it just to thumb his nose at Kennedy, Kerry, and Massachusetts.

[Richard B]

Oh I would LOVE to live in NY. :nod:
Now don't freak out...but that pic of Ann Coulter looks like Amber Frey, the former lover of convicted murderer Scott Peterson.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I've got to hand it to you, you really are absolutely brilliant when it comes to completely avoiding an issue that someone brings up. I suppose you learn from the best.

A general question to anyone, since I must admit I'm not terribly well-versed on the ins and outs of this: Do any states have their own minimum wages that are higher than the national minimum wage? And if not, why not? Is this something that state legislatures are not allowed to do?

It can be state by state...it just depends.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Now don't freak out...but that pic of Ann Coulter looks like Amber Frey, the former lover of convicted murderer Scott Peterson.

You know I have never noticed that. :lol:

[Jyqm]

Experience proves that the minimum wage hurts more people than it helps.

You got a source for that, boy-o?

Also, that doesn't really answer my question about why Santorum and Specter voted for the proposal. Or about what the differences are in the Republican-sponsored proposal.

[dissention]

A general question to anyone, since I must admit I'm not terribly well-versed on the ins and outs of this: Do any states have their own minimum wages that are higher than the national minimum wage? And if not, why not? Is this something that state legislatures are not allowed to do?

The minimum wage in MA is $6.75. Any state can establish their own minimum wage, it just can't fall below the national minimum wage.

[SuzeQuze]

There was also a yes vote from DeWine (R) in Ohio.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The minimum wage in MA is $6.75. Any state can establish their own minimum wage, it just can't fall below the national minimum wage.

Exactly. What I posted above. Which you know me I'm just unaware of an facts.

Which leads me to the assertion that if any state can establish their own minimum wage, then why must the national minimum wage be upped?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You got a source for that, boy-o?

Also, that doesn't really answer my question about why Santorum and Specter voted for the proposal. Or about what the differences are in the Republican-sponsored proposal.

Minimum-wage advocates imply that mostly large, successful firms employ low-wage workers. Therefore, the only effect of a higher minimum wage will be to reduce business profits. However, the Small Business Administration (SBA) recently examined the types of businesses employing low-wage workers. Not surprisingly, the bulk of them are small businesses, not big corporations. Among all minimum-wage workers, 54% work in businesses with fewer than 100 employees and two-thirds work in businesses with fewer than 500 employees

[dissention]

Exactly. What I posted above. Which you know me I'm just unaware of an facts.

He asked for an example, I gave him one. You did not.

Which leads me to the assertion that if any state can establish their own minimum wage, then why must the national minimum wage be upped?

Umm, so that people are paid more for their work? What a concept.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

He asked for an example, I gave him one. You did not.

I answered his question. I didn't know he was asking for an example as well.



Umm, so that people are paid more for their work? What a concept.

Sounds nice in theory, but it isn't that simple.

[dissention]

Minimum-wage advocates imply that mostly large, successful firms employ low-wage workers. Therefore, the only effect of a higher minimum wage will be to reduce business profits. However, the Small Business Administration (SBA) recently examined the types of businesses employing low-wage workers. Not surprisingly, the bulk of them are small businesses, not big corporations. Among all minimum-wage workers, 54% work in businesses with fewer than 100 employees and two-thirds work in businesses with fewer than 500 employees

You should really be attributing that to the original author, Bruce Bartlett.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You should really be attributing that to the original author, Bruce Bartlett.

But of course...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200502/ai_n10298110

I was just about to post the entire article.

[dissention]

Sounds nice in theory, but it isn't that simple.

How sweet it is that you spew the corporate capitalist talking points as if they were your own.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The concept of a minimum wage seems straightforward: If we believe the wages of some workers are too low, we should pass a law requiring those wages to be higher. What could be simpler? The problem is that increasing the minimum wage may make some people better off, but others will be harmed. Experience proves that the minimum wage hurts more people than it helps.

A bill to raise minimum hourly pay is introduced in every Congress. The current proposal would immediately raise the federal minimum wage from $5.15 to $5.85, then to $6.45 one year later and to $7.00 after two years.

Age and education are the two most basic determinants of the wage a worker can command in the employment market. Young people generally have less experience and maturity and are usually not productive enough to demand a very high wage. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the bulk of minimum-wage workers are under 25, with limited education.

In 2002, half of all workers earning the minimum wage were under age 25 and one-fourth were between the ages of 16 and 19. One-third of all minimum-wage workers had less than a high school diploma. Three-fifths of minimum-wage employees worked only part-time, and many were students or others living in homes with high family incomes.

At the same time, minimum-wage jobs are not insignificant. They are the first rung on the employment ladder for most workers. The experience workers gain in such simple skills as showing up on time, learning to follow instructions and how to interact with customers are critical to success in life.

That is why-absent government mandated hikes-salaries grow rapidly for newly hired minimum-wage workers who stick with their jobs. About 90% of workers hired at minimum wage earn more than the minimum after one year, according to the BLS.

Minimum-wage advocates imply that mostly large, successful firms employ low-wage workers. Therefore, the only effect of a higher minimum wage will be to reduce business profits. However, the Small Business Administration (SBA) recently examined the types of businesses employing low-wage workers. Not surprisingly, the bulk of them are small businesses, not big corporations. Among all minimum-wage workers, 54% work in businesses with fewer than 100 employees and two-thirds work in businesses with fewer than 500 employees.

Small businesses create 75% of new jobs annually, but they are also responsible for most job losses. That is why we must be especially careful when contemplating new financial burdens on small businesses. With so many of them so close to the edge to begin with, it often doesn't take much to push them over, destroying many jobs in the process.

Unemployment figures are also a telling statistic regarding minimum wage. From 1948 to 1955, unemployment of black and white teenage males was essentially the same, 11.3% and 11.6%, respectively. However, after the minimum wage was raised from 75 cents to $1 in 1956, unemployment rose significantly for both bhck and white teenage males, with blacks bearing more of the burden. By 1969, the unemployment rate was 22.7% for black teenage males and 14.6% for white teenage males.

Economists Donald Deere, Kevin Murphy and Finis Welch found that minimum wage increases totaling 27% in 1990 and 1991 reduced employment for all teenagers by 7.3% and for black teenagers by 10%. A study of the 1996 and 1997 increases by economists Richard Burkhauser, Kenneth Couch and David Wittenburg also found a 2% to 6% decline in employment for each 10% increase in the minimum wage.

In a study published by the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, Couch translated these conclusions into raw numbers: At the low end, he estimated at least 90,000 teenage jobs were lost in 1996 and another 63,000 in 1997. At the high end, job losses may have equaled 268,000 in 1996 and 189,000 in 1997.

Couch estimates that a $1 rise in the minimum wage today would further reduce teenage employment by at least 145,000 and possibly as many as 436,000 jobs. According to the SBA, even among large firms the probability of a low -wage worker losing his job doubles after a minimum-wage hike.

Advocates of a minimum-wage hike ignore the evidence that it increases unemployment among the least productive workers: unskilled teenagers whose employment opportunities are limited. This is unfortunate, because low-wage jobs are the first rung on the economic ladder of success for workers entering the labor force. When we cut off the bottom rung by increasing the minimum wage, we keep youngsters from making the transition to work.

Mr. Bartlett is a senior fellow with the National Center for Policy Analysis.

Copyright Human Events Publishing, Inc. Feb 14, 2005
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved

[Jyqm]

It can be state by state...it just depends.

I looked it up for myself, here's a nice site with the information: http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

There are sixteen states with a minimum wage higher than the federally mandated one, among them California ($6.75), New York ($6.75 as of 01.01.2006), Florida ($6.15), and Illinois ($6.50). Washington state seems to have the highest minimum wage: $7.35.

While this does seem like something that should be a state issue much more than national one, as the cost of living varies widely state by state, it does seem incumbent on the federal government to ensure that states are enforcing a minimum wage that allows someone working a full-time job to live above the poverty level.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

How sweet it is that you spew the corporate capitalist talking points as if they were your own.

Gee...could it be that capitalism works? A free-market equals a better market!

[dissention]

Gee...could it be that capitalism works? A free-market equals a better market!

Those are both matters of opinion, not facts.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Those are both matters of opinion, not facts.

Well you stated that somehow they weren't MY opinions and just talking points...so...

[SuzeQuze]

Those are both matters of opinion, not facts.

His opinions do not carry much weight with me due to his inexperience, age, and the fact that he lives at home. Sorry kid!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

His opinions do not carry much weight with me due to his inexperience, age, and the fact that he lives at home. Sorry kid!

I was waiting for the stereotypical "You don't know unless you have had a life experience" liberal argument.

Why is it that an idea or a point is less valid because you haven't had a "life experience"...it doesn't take away from facts.

[Jyqm]

Gee...could it be that capitalism works? A free-market equals a better market!

So where is this totally free market that is working better than all the other ones?

Seems like the market was pretty free in the US at the turn of the 20th century.

[dissention]

His opinions do not carry much weight with me due to his inexperience, age, and the fact that he lives at home. Sorry kid!

He's an elitist if I've ever heard one, which is why I laugh when we're accused of being such. Adores a man who supported apartheid, has a palpable contempt for the poor that he won't admit to, and wants the government to dictate the most conservative social policies imaginable.

[SuzeQuze]

I was waiting for the stereotypical "You don't know unless you have had a life experience" liberal argument.

Why is it that an idea or a point is less valid because you haven't had a "life experience"...it doesn't take away from facts.

What are you talking about? That's a stereotype I was not aware of.

Your data was all about teenage jobs. That is less important than the adults who have these jobs and have to pay for living expenses. Where is that data?

When you are a fabulously wealthy CEO with your 3 homes, yacht, and mansion then talk to me. Lord knows why you spew the talking points at your young age.

[SuzeQuze]

He's an elitist if I've ever heard one, which is why I laugh when we're accused of being such. Adores a man who supported apartheid, has a palpable contempt for the poor that he won't admit to, and wants the government to dictate the most conservative social policies imaginable.

Which can be summed up in one word "clueless".

[dissention]

I was waiting for the stereotypical "You don't know unless you have had a life experience" liberal argument.

Ah, but you really don't. Leave home and try to support yourself independently with a minimum wage job. I dare you.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

While this does seem like something that should be a state issue much more than national one, as the cost of living varies widely state by state, it does seem incumbent on the federal government to ensure that states are enforcing a minimum wage that allows someone working a full-time job to live above the poverty level.

Causing an increase in minimum wage sounds nice and pretty, however it is not. Businesses will have to tighten there strings and cut jobs. And as far as the issue that increasing minimum wage somehow encourages poor people or people on welfare to enter into the work force, that two is a little fluffed. Firstly, with fewer jobs available it is quite difficult for any workers to find employment. Also the higher the minimum wage, the more the work becomes attractive to more people. Then employers will then be more selective. To me it seems that a higher minimum wage only better helps to prolong a "nanny state"...keeps the poor and welfare recipients more dependent on the government.

[dissention]

Which can be summed up in one word "clueless".

I think he should move up to Massachusetts, he can have his eyes opened up wide. :laugh:

[Jyqm]

The problem is that increasing the minimum wage may make some people better off, but others will be harmed.

Well duh. that tends to be how it works with most things related to money. If somebody's getting more of it, somebody else is getting less...

Experience proves that the minimum wage hurts more people than it helps.

...but I don't see anything in this article showing that "more" people are hurt than helped by a minimum wage. A bunch of statistics about rises in teenage unemployment immediately following minimum wage hikes (although teenagers make up only 25% of workers earning the minimum wage, according to this guy's own statistics). Which is to be expected, of course. Where's the long-range results, though?

In 2002, half of all workers earning the minimum wage were under age 25 and one-fourth were between the ages of 16 and 19. One-third of all minimum-wage workers had less than a high school diploma. Three-fifths of minimum-wage employees worked only part-time, and many were students or others living in homes with high family incomes.

Funny how statistics can sound different depending on you present them:

In 2002, a full half of all workers earning the minimum wage were over age 25, and nearly three-fourths were over age 19. Two-thirds of all minimum wage workers had a high school diploma or better. 40% of minimum wage employees worked full time.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ah, but you really don't. Leave home and try to support yourself independently with a minimum wage job. I dare you.

I know people who do it actually. And lets not pretend that most low income families and households make the EXACTLY minimum wage, because that is just untrue.

[dissention]

To me it seems that a higher minimum wage only better helps to prolong a "nanny state"...keeps the poor and welfare recipients more dependent on the government.

But how else will those welfare momma's get their cadillacs? :rolleyes:

[Jyqm]

Ah, but you really don't. Leave home and try to support yourself independently with a minimum wage job. I dare you.

Or, barring that, at the very least read Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed.

[dissention]

Or, barring that, at the very least read Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed.

Her new one, Bait and Switch, is great, too. Have you read it yet?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

He's an elitist if I've ever heard one, which is why I laugh when we're accused of being such. Adores a man who supported apartheid, has a palpable contempt for the poor that he won't admit to, and wants the government to dictate the most conservative social policies imaginable.

Yes and also, after the government dictates morality...overturning Roe v. Wade and such...they should stay the hell out of our lives and our income! Government = BAD! :nod:

[Jyqm]

Causing an increase in minimum wage sounds nice and pretty, however it is not. Businesses will have to tighten there strings and cut jobs. And as far as the issue that increasing minimum wage somehow encourages poor people or people on welfare to enter into the work force, that two is a little fluffed. Firstly, with fewer jobs available it is quite difficult for any workers to find employment. Also the higher the minimum wage, the more the work becomes attractive to more people. Then employers will then be more selective.

You're talking about ridiculously short-term consequences here.

[dissention]

I know people who do it actually. And lets not pretend that most low income families and households make the EXACTLY minimum wage, because that is just untrue.

You're really in no position to claim what's true and what isn't. Get some life experience under your belt and it would give you at least an ounce of credibility.

[SuzeQuze]

Or, barring that, at the very least read Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed.

Yes! Please educate yourself!

John Edwards is on a tour right now talking about poverty. He will be at Harvard tomorrow but his talk was already sold out when I looked into tickets. MoveOn members are invited.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

But how else will those welfare momma's get their cadillacs? :rolleyes:

Josh. You know as well as I do...They get the money from their kids’ drug trafficking.

[Jyqm]

Her new one, Bait and Switch, is great, too. Have you read it yet?

Unfortunately, no, I'm only reading stuff in German at the moment. Expect me to be way behind on all kinds of English-language literature for a while, probably until I've been here at least a year.

[dissention]

Yes and also, after the government dictates morality...

From now on, I'm going to abstain from talking politics with you. It's an effort in futility and my intelligence can't handle the insults being lobbed at it.

[SuzeQuze]

Her new one, Bait and Switch, is great, too. Have you read it yet?

I didn't read the former because I thought it would be too depressing. The new one is about how the middle class really is broke too, right? I really want to read that one and will probably read the former. Oprah did a show about that and told people to think about how important a "living wage" is for workers.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You're talking about ridiculously short-term consequences here.

Not being able to find a job because the business becomes too selective is short-term?

[SuzeQuze]

From now on, I'm going to abstain from talking politics with you. It's an effort in futility and my intelligence can't handle the insults being lobbed at it.

I am with you. :xoxo:

Suze "Liberal socialist and proud of it" A. (Brian I just had to borrow your technique for a sec. :lol: )

[Brwn_eyes0511]

From now on, I'm going to abstain from talking politics with you. It's an effort in futility and my intelligence can't handle the insults being lobbed at it.

Come on Josh, you can't handle a joke! I expected as much from the half of the people around here. But not you! Not someone who can be just as vitriolic as I can!

[dissention]

I didn't read the former because I thought it would be too depressing. The new one is about how the middle class really is broke too, right? I really want to read that one and will probably read the former.

Yes. You should read her book from about 15 years ago called "Fear of Falling" that shows how the middle-class aided in keeping the poor impoverished due to fear of losing status, and then her new one "Bait and Switch" about middle-class, white-collar jobs and living. It's quite remarkable how things have changed in just the last 15 years. The middle-class have now become the working poor that they always feared of becoming.

Oprah did a show about that and told people to think about how important a "living wage" is for workers.

I still remember that episode from last week with that piece Anderson did about the family living under a bridge, a family living out of their van, and another family living in a shelter. Getting a job is the hard part, but getting one that you can live on is even harder.

[Jyqm]

Government = BAD! :nod:

While I can almost always respect both conservative and liberal politics, even if I don't agree with them, this type of **** is where you and others completely lose credibility and respect with me.

Government is not "BAD!" It is an absolute necessity of life in a large, diverse and civilized society. The extent to which it is necessary, and what areas of life it should be involved in, and how, is always up for debate. But the belief that government is a problem to be gotten rid of, aside from being anarchistic, is complete stupidity, and it's the insidiousness of this idea is what has led to despicable ineffectual shambles that the US government currently finds itself in.

[Jyqm]

Not being able to find a job because the business becomes too selective is short-term?

Yes! Has unemployment continued to rise unabated in the wake of the eight federal minimum wage hikes over the past sixty-odd years? Have the lowest-paying jobs become consistently more selective? No. Economies work in cycles.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

While I can almost always respect both conservative and liberal politics, even if I don't agree with them, this type of **** is where you and others completely lose credibility and respect with me.

Government is not "BAD!" It is an absolute necessity of life in a large, diverse and civilized society. The extent to which it is necessary, and what areas of life it should be involved in, and how, is always up for debate. But the belief that government is a problem to be gotten rid of, aside from being anarchistic, is complete stupidity, and it's the insidiousness of this idea is what has led to despicable ineffectual shambles that the US government currently finds itself in.

Hold your horses. I never said that we don't need ANY government. Just the basics. But because I don't want a "nanny state" that is with me from cradle to grave and takes half of my income...means that I am a loon!?

Essentially the government should protect civil liberties and the free market through a police force, a military, and the courts. That is really the basics...of course there is more however.

[Jyqm]

Hold your horses. I never said that we don't need ANY government. Just the basics. But because I don't want a "nanny state" that is with me from cradle to grave and takes half of my income...means that I am a loon!?

Essentially the government should protect civil liberties and the free market through a police force, a military, and the courts. That is really the basics...of course there is more however.

Which is all well and good. And if you want to discuss politics and government on mature and realistic terms like that, that is absolutely great. But far too often you throw out this "government is bad, the less of it the better" bull****, or quote your heroes to that effect. If you don't truly believe that in its most fundamental applications, then stop saying it.

[DavidMn]

It's ok, I done mind eating Ramen for the rest of my life...:lol:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Which is all well and good. And if you want to discuss politics and government on mature and realistic terms like that, that is absolutely great. But far too often you throw out this "government is bad, the less of it the better" bull****, or quote your heroes to that effect. If you don't truly believe that in its most fundamental applications, then stop saying it.

Well I have been doing a lot of thinking. And you know the majority of what I post is about politics. I mean don't get me wrong I am a huge FM fan, I just tend to be very politically driven on the ledge. I don't think that I am being very productive here. That is not to say that being a ledgie isn't productive, but for me I don't think that it is. I mean obviously I'm not changing anyone’s minds, and most of the people around here wouldn't care one way or another if I just left. So I really don't think I'm going to stick around...just because I don' see myself being productive.

[strandinthewind]

Ah, but you really don't. Leave home and try to support yourself independently with a minimum wage job. I dare you.

LOL - let them eat cake :rolleyes: The American middle class could not be worse if it tried. I mean do they honestly think they are going to get in the elite society by starving the poor - fools.

As for the min. wage, clearly adding a dollar an hour to the lowest wage would not bankrupt any company with any financially sound backing. Any argument to the contrary is the babbling of an incoherent jacka$$. What it will do it reduce the end of year earning of the owners by about 10% , which is nothing after taxes.

[strandinthewind]

You're talking about ridiculously short-term consequences here.

Not only that, but if the people at the top of most id sized to large companies cut their bonuses by 10% or less, they could give almost $2.00 an hour more to the lower employees.

In the end, I think most mid to large corps. pay more than min. wage to most workers. I think I remember reading that somewhere. But, they all should.

Consider this article and consider what four more dollars an hour plus benefits would mean. It would mean that the billionaire owers would still make tens of millions a year on top of their billions. I mean come on - these people are supposed to be Chritians - my a$$

The Costco Challenge: An Alternative to Wal-Martization?

By Moira Herbst

July 6, 2005

Critics believe that Wal-Mart should play the role General Motors played after World War II… [and] establish the post-world-war middle class that the country is so proud of. The facts are that retailing doesn’t perform that role in the economy. Retailing doesn’t perform that role in any country.
—Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott, April 2005

To workers and union leaders, it is a familiar refrain. These days, the story goes, consumers demand low prices, meaning goods must be produced and sold cheaply — and retail wages must be kept as low as possible. Companies like Wal-Mart insist they’re feeling the squeeze and must pay workers poverty wages — even while netting $10.5 billion in annual profits and awarding millions to top executives.

But there’s another company that is breaking the Wal-Mart mold: Costco Wholesale Corp., now the fifth-largest retailer in the U.S. While Wal-Mart pays an average of $9.68 an hour, the average hourly wage of employees of the Issaquah, Wash.-based warehouse club operator is $16. After three years a typical full-time Costco worker makes about $42,000, and the company foots 92% of its workers’ health insurance tab.

How does Costco pull it off? How can a discount retail chain pay middle-class wages and still bring in over $880 million in net revenues? And, a cynic may ask, with Wal-Mart wages becoming the norm, why does it bother?

A number of factors explain Costco’s success at building a retail chain both profitable and fair to its workers. But the basic formula is one the labor movement has been advocating for decades: a loyal, well-compensated workforce means a more efficient and productive one.

The Union Difference

Though only about 18% of Costco’s total workforce is unionized, union representation creates a ripple effect and helps determine labor standards in all stores. The Teamsters represent about 15,000 workers at 56 Costco stores in California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland and Virginia. Workers are covered by West coast and East coast contracts, negotiated in February and April of last year.

“The agreements lock in wage and benefits packages that are the highest in the grocery and [discount] retail industries,” said Rome Aloise, chief IBT negotiator for Costco and Secretary-Treasurer of Local 853 in San Leandro, Calif.

Costco passes on similar compensation packages to its non-union workers; the contracts act as templates for other stores’ employee handbooks.

“The union contracts raise the bar and set the standard for all employees,” explained Aloise. “Still, while the company extends wage and pay raises to non-union employees, only union members enjoy benefits like seniority-based promotions, a grievance procedure and minimum hours for part-time workers,” he added.

The Payoff of Better Pay

Strong union representation isn’t the only reason Costco jobs are so well compensated; the company itself has an unusually forward-looking corporate philosophy.

Costco CEO Jim Senegal has said: “We pay much better than Wal-Mart. That’s not altruism. It’s good business.”

Chief Financial Officer Richard Galanti explained: “From day one, we’ve run the company with the philosophy that if we pay better than average, provide a salary people can live on, have a positive environment and good benefits, we’ll be able to hire better people, they’ll stay longer and be more efficient.”

A 2004 Business Week study ran the numbers to test Costco’s business model against that of Wal-Mart. The study confirmed that Costco’s well-compensated employees are more productive.

The study shows that Costco’s employees sell more: $795 of sales per square foot, versus only $516 at Sam’s Club, a division of Wal-Mart (which, like Costco, operates as a members-only warehouse club). Consequently Costco pulls in more revenue per employee; U.S. operating profit per hourly employee was $13,647 at Costco versus $11,039 at Sam’s Club.

The study also revealed that Costco’s labor costs are actually lower than Wal-Mart’s as a percentage of sales. Its labor and overhead costs (classed as SG&A, or selling, general and administrative expenses) are 9.8% of revenues, compared to Wal-Mart’s 17%.

By compensating its workers well, Costco also enjoys rates of turnover far below industry norms. Costco’s rate of turnover is one-third the industry average of 65% as estimated by the National Retail Foundation. Wal-Mart reports a turnover rate of about 50%.

With such rates of employee retention, Costco’s savings are significant. “It costs $2,500 to $3,000 per worker to recruit, interview, test and train a new hire, even in retail,” said Eileen Appelbaum, Professor at Rutgers University’s School of Management and Labor Relations. “With Wal-Mart’s turnover rate that comes to an extra $1.5 to $2 million in costs each year.”

Other analysts of the retail industry agree that happier, well-compensated workers help generate bigger profits. George Whalin, president of Retail Management Consultants in San Marcos, Calif., disagrees with many of Wal-Mart’s critics, but said: “There’s no doubt Wal-Mart and many other retailers could do a better job taking care of their employees. The best retailers do take care of their employees — Nordstrom’s, Costco, The Container store — with fair pay, good benefits and managers who care about people. You have fewer employee issues, less turnover and more productivity. It lessens costs to the company.”

Still, Wall Street analysts intent on cutting up-front labor costs tend to frown upon Costco’s model. “Costco’s corporate philosophy is to put its customers first, then its employees, then its vendors and finally its shareholders. Shareholders get the short end of stick,” said Deutsche Bank analyst Bill Dreher.

But Costco’s stock has quadrupled in the past ten years, and has in the past year inched closer to Wal-Mart’s per-share-price. In fiscal year 2004, Costco recorded record sales and earnings. While Wal-Mart continues to profit and expand, its stock has lost value — in recent months it is 16% off its 52-week high — as sales have been more sluggish as gas prices cause customers to cut back on driving to and from the store. The negative publicity around the company has also caused some damage.

Of course, other factors besides low turnover and employee productivity are responsible for Costco’s efficiency. The company has a wealthier customer base than Wal-Mart’s; these customers buy higher-margin goods, purchase in bulk and have steadier spending habits. Costco also saves millions because it does not advertise.

More Than Hot Air

Besides the efficiency of its workforce, another reason Costco can afford to pay more is that it cuts the fat from executive paychecks. The overall corporate philosophy is that workers deserve a fair share of the profits they help generate — not just a pat on the back or a new job title like “associate.”

For example, while CEOs at other major corporations average 531 times the pay of their lowest-paid employees, Sinegal takes only 10 times the pay of his typical employee. His annual salary is $350,000, compared to about $5.3 million awarded to Wal-Mart’s Lee Scott.

After California Costco workers ratified their Teamster contract last March, CEO Jim Sinegal said Costco workers are “entitled to buy homes and live in reasonably nice neighborhoods and send their children to school.”

That the company’s stated ideals match up with workers’ paychecks helps explain employee loyalty at Costco.

Originally from El Salvador, 28-year-old Cesar Martinez has worked at a Redwood City, Calif. Costco for 10 years, serving as a Teamster shop steward for seven years. His pay is now up to $19.42 an hour, which he estimates brings him $43,000 per year.

“There’s a feeling here that the company takes care of its employees and wants to share the profits. We feel compensated fairly,” Martinez said.

“I’ve stuck with it so long because I like the job. And the salary is solid and we have a pension that gives me security into the future. That’s important to me,” he added.

By contrast, some Wal-Mart employees experience the supposed care for “associates” as empty rhetoric. Forty-two-year-old Rosetta Brown, a Sam’s Club employee in Chicago, Ill., for example, stands back each morning when managers and associates gather for the Sam’s Club cheer.

“I refuse to do it,” she said. “I don’t believe the company lives up to what they’re cheering for,” she said.

Rosetta, mother to five children ranging in age from three to 25, does not feel well compensated at $11.34 per hour after five years. She is also suing Wal-Mart, parent company to Sam’s Club, for costs associated with a herniated disc she suffered when she said she was locked in while working the night shift.

Twenty-seven-year-old Jason Mrkwa, who works as a frozen foods stocker in Independence, Kansas, also stands back when it’s cheer time at his store. But he insists he doesn’t hate Wal-Mart: “I’m not another disgruntled employee. I like my job. I just feel cheated with the pay I get.” He started at $7 per hour five years ago, and now makes just $8.53 per hour.

Julie Molina, 38, has worked at Costco’s South San Francisco store for 19 years. “People stick around — most people in my store have been there ten years more. No one in retail makes as much as we do. Plus it’s a good working environment.”

Molina attributes the positive working environment in large part to the Teamsters’ presence. “It works really well now. When problems arise management comes to the union for advice. But without the union I’m not sure what would take place. Would they treat us like Wal-Mart treats its workers? You hear horror stories,” she said.

Of course Costco is not paradise — “On a local level, some managers don’t play fair — they might harass workers, fire them unreasonably or pattern bonuses unfairly. That’s where union representation is the real advantage,” explained Rome Aloise.

Into the future, the question will be which model of employee compensation predominates in retail — the high road of Costco or the low road of Wal-Mart.

“When companies like Wal-Mart are setting the standard, we have to ask: Do we want to live in a country where the largest employer pays below poverty-level wages, whose workers cannot afford health care?” says Paul Blank, chief spokesperson of Wake Up Wal-Mart, the United Food and Commercial Workers’ new campaign to change the company’s practices. “Or do we want Americans to enjoy a decent income and a sense of security in return for their work?”

Costco v. Wal-Mart: How They Stack Up

Global Workforce
Wal-Mart: 1.6 million associates
Costco: 113,000 employees

U.S. Workforce
Wal-Mart: 1.2 million
Costco: 83,600

U.S. Union Members
Wal-Mart: 0
Costco: 15,000

U.S. Stores
Wal-Mart: 3,600
Costco: 336

Net Profits (2004)
Wal-Mart: $10.5 billion
Costco: $882 million

CEO Salary + Bonus (2004)
Wal-Mart: $5.3 million
Costco: $350,000

Average Pay
Wal-Mart: $9.68/hour
Costco: $16/hour

Health Plan Costs
Wal-Mart: Associates pay 34% of premiums + deductible ($350-$1,000)
Costco: Comprehensive; employees pay 5-8% of premiums

Employees Covered By Company Health Insurance
Wal-Mart: 48%
Costco: 82%

Employee Turnover (estimate)
Wal-Mart: 50%
Costco: 24%

Sources: Wal-Mart, Costco, Business Week, Forbes.com

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/news/20050706-lre.html

[strandinthewind]

I am with you. :xoxo:

Suze "Liberal socialist and proud of it" A. (Brian I just had to borrow your technique for a sec. :lol: )

Well, I intend on still taking you and Josh to task :xoxo: :D

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I was waiting for the stereotypical "You don't know unless you have had a life experience" liberal argument.

Why is it that an idea or a point is less valid because you haven't had a "life experience"...it doesn't take away from facts.


Funny that you say that..and then call it a LIBERAL ARGUMENT..I have always been told that by conservatives when I tell my side...wow

Chris

[estranged4life]

Oklahoma
Coburn (R) No; Inhofe (R) No.


Gee that is a surprise...oh gee, I am so shocked think I am having a heart attack...Nope guess not, Guess it was the gas backing up that I will have to bottle once the gasoline prices start jumping again this coming weekend.

Brian "Save gas...Fart in a jar" j.

[SuzeQuze]

Well, I intend on still taking you and Josh to task :xoxo: :D

And I love you for it. :xoxo: Actually, I just like making up. Wait, I was thinking of something else... ;) :lol:

CEO greed has done a lot to keep wages low. They give themselves raises. If minimum wage grew as much as the average CEO's pay has then it would be about $24/hr now.

[strandinthewind]

And I love you for it. :xoxo: Actually, I just like making up. Wait, I was thinking of something else... ;) :lol:

LOL - I feeeeellll dddiiiiirrrrrttttyyyyyyyyyyyyy when ya talk to me like that :angel:

CEO greed has done a lot to keep wages low. They give themselves raises. If minimum wage grew as much as the average CEO's pay has then it would be about $24/hr now.

And - I am all for them making millions a year and the owners making the same. I just think that it is possible to make several hundred thousand less and still make a ton and have a clear conscious. I mean what is the difference between $50 million a year and $52 million when you have another $50 million in the bank. I mean they would still be heavily compensated and the workers would get a better life in the meantime.

But and again, many large companies pay way more than minimum wage already. I just wish they would see the light and pay a little more even if that means me paying $0.05 more for a loaf of bread.

[estranged4life]

Suze "Liberal socialist and proud of it" A. (Brian I just had to borrow your technique for a sec. :lol: )

send my $5 for signature copyright infrigement to... :lol:

Brian "The originator...Not the imitator :rolleyes: " j.

[sara1998]

I was waiting for the stereotypical "You don't know unless you have had a life experience" liberal argument.

Why is it that an idea or a point is less valid because you haven't had a "life experience"...it doesn't take away from facts.
Have you paid a mortgage, electric, car payment, insurance, gas, and groceries on minimum wage? You must be a child of some incredibly rich CEO who whores out their employees for $5.25 and hour. God knows I grew up poor, and my folks didn't sit on their asses at work. THEY WORKED. FOR **** INCOME. They struggled to put food on the table. They hoped we were warm in the winter. Mom cried when they could hardly do Christmas. That's how people on minimum wage live. They hang by a string. You go and live on minimum wage, and then come back and talk to me about how it shouldn't be raised. The facts are, kid-o, is that it can hardly be done.

[strandinthewind]

Have you paid a mortgage, electric, car payment, insurance, gas, and groceries on minimum wage? You must be a child of some incredibly rich CEO who whores out their employees for $5.25 and hour. God knows I grew up poor, and my folks didn't sit on their asses at work. THEY WORKED. FOR **** INCOME. They struggled to put food on the table. They hoped we were warm in the winter. Mom cried when they could hardly do Christmas. That's how people on minimum wage live. They hang by a string. You go and live on minimum wage, and then come back and talk to me about how it shouldn't be raised. The facts are, kid-o, is that it can hardly be done.

God bless your parents and everyone like them.

[SuzeQuze]

Have you paid a mortgage, electric, car payment, insurance, gas, and groceries on minimum wage? You must be a child of some incredibly rich CEO who whores out their employees for $5.25 and hour. God knows I grew up poor, and my folks didn't sit on their asses at work. THEY WORKED. FOR **** INCOME. They struggled to put food on the table. They hoped we were warm in the winter. Mom cried when they could hardly do Christmas. That's how people on minimum wage live. They hang by a string. You go and live on minimum wage, and then come back and talk to me about how it shouldn't be raised. The facts are, kid-o, is that it can hardly be done.

When I was little my parents did jobs barely over minimum wage, my dad slung meat and my mom worked at a shoe factory operating machines. Still they saved for a house somehow. They wouldn't be able to do it today, it just wouldn't be possible. We were house poor for the first 6 years we lived there (when I aws 6 - 11) but they worked really hard and worked their way up to make enough money to have some stretch in the budget. We went to Disney World. We were never poor again but since I lived that way in my formative years it will be with me forever. I know this has shaped my views quite a bit, that and the way my father grew up.

[dissention]

When I was little my parents did jobs barely over minimum wage, my dad slung meat and my mom worked at a shoe factory operating machines. Still they saved for a house somehow. They wouldn't be able to do it today, it just wouldn't be possible. We were house poor for the first 6 years we lived there (when I aws 6 - 11) but they worked really hard and worked their way up to make enough money to have some stretch in the budget. We went to Disney World. We were never poor again but since I lived that way in my formative years it will be with me forever. I know this has shaped my views quite a bit, that and the way my father grew up.

My mother was a single parent and busted her ass to raise me, work a job, and keep food in our mouths and a roof over our heads. Even now, after putting herself through college after years and years of work (it took her over four years just to get a two year degree before transferring to a four year college), she still only makes $9 an hour as an outreach worker for the mentally ill. She gets paid bi-weekly and her paychecks are just over $500 every two weeks. We lived in some ratty slums when I was growing up, but she managed to save what she could, get her credit straightened out, and was able to get a loan for a house in 2000. She lucked out in that respect, but there are millions who aren't. Instead, we have a man in the White House who touts a woman working three jobs to stay afloat as "American." It makes me puke and I'm nauseated by people who have never been poor, have never wanted, and have never gone hungry having the balls to speak about how "minimum wages are bad." It's astonishing. How out of touch with reality can one be?

[estranged4life]

(Which will be 28 years ago this Saturday the 22nd) my mother busted her ass to make ends meet and to support her boys.

She worked about 12-14 hours a day sometine 6 days a week in a large scale laundry facility, the kind where your work consists of cleaning hospital sheets and such all day long in temps anywhere from 110-130 and you have to push carts full of laundry that can weight over 1200lbs (Missing only 5 days of work in a 12+ year span...All she got was the satifaction that "she did it her way" and that it caused her to be crippled before she passed away, She worked herself into the ground in a way) to make it, Would have been easier had the minimum wage been raised back even then, But oh no...certain politicians (Wanna guess who?) dont want people to be successful and obtain a middle class status, they (These suit wearing, Rich ball-lickers) want everyone to basically stay poor so we can always have this stupid ass battle of the social/economical classes where they will always prevail.

I say enough of their ****...Raise the _________ minimum wage!!!!

Brian "Revolution callin'...Revolution callin'....Revolution callin' you" j.

[gldstwmn]

And of all the Republicans to vote for it, it was Santorum and Specter of Pennsylvania. I wonder why that is.



Both of those seats are questionable for them next year. Specter is in ill health and Santorum's poll numbers are abysmal. You'll also notice that DeWine voted yes. His seat is in question also.

[estranged4life]

Vermont

Jeffords (I) Yes


is Jeffords, I love listening to this guy because he is a take no s**t kinda guy.

[sara1998]

When I was little my parents did jobs barely over minimum wage, my dad slung meat and my mom worked at a shoe factory operating machines. Still they saved for a house somehow. They wouldn't be able to do it today, it just wouldn't be possible. We were house poor for the first 6 years we lived there (when I aws 6 - 11) but they worked really hard and worked their way up to make enough money to have some stretch in the budget. We went to Disney World. We were never poor again but since I lived that way in my formative years it will be with me forever. I know this has shaped my views quite a bit, that and the way my father grew up.
Mom was a stay at home mom until I went to kindergarten, then she worked fast food and ****ty factory jobs. My dad worked in insulation for a small company. They bought their first house when I was 3, with help from my grandparents. And they still live there. (even thought the neighborhood went to hell about 10 years ago:distress: )About the time I was 13 is when they got their break, and both landed good jobs. Mom has now been at hers for 15 years, and dad has since been layed off, but they haven't struggled since. All I know is, growing up, there was no Kings Island, Six Flags, no vacations period. Nothing of the sort.

[sparky]

The Costco thing makes me very happy. This is the kind of company that built the middle class and made this country into what was once the envy of the world. 880 million in profit is PLENTY. If the stockholders don't get huge dividends, tough. Who says a compnay has to go public anyway ?
The way they run their company is fair, decent, and respectable. It is HUMANE, And go figure, still profitable.

I may start shopping at Costco now. Thankfully, there are no Wal Marts anywhere near me. The very idea of Wal Mart makes me nearly break out in a rash.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The very idea of Wal Mart makes me nearly break out in a rash.

If the thought doesn't, the people who shop there just might! :lol:

[stevierocks87]

Well I have been doing a lot of thinking. And you know the majority of what I post is about politics. I mean don't get me wrong I am a huge FM fan, I just tend to be very politically driven on the ledge. I don't think that I am being very productive here. That is not to say that being a ledgie isn't productive, but for me I don't think that it is. I mean obviously I'm not changing anyone’s minds, and most of the people around here wouldn't care one way or another if I just left. So I really don't think I'm going to stick around...just because I don' see myself being productive.

I don't think this thread would have grown 6 pages without you. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and it made me think a lot about the issue. Like most around here I don't agree with you, but I think having the other side present makes things more lively and interesting and forces people to share their thoughts in more eloquant, thought out ways (defending something is harder than just talking about something everyone agrees on, is it not?)

So, you may not be changing anyone's mind, and most of us don't agree with you, but I do see you performing a productive role. Debate doesn't exist if everyone thinks the same :nod: Also, everyone remember to avoid any kind of personal attacks. Agree to disagree.

Okay, continue on with your battle royal! fun stuff!

:wavey: adam :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't think this thread would have grown 6 pages without you. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and it made me think a lot about the issue. Like most around here I don't agree with you, but I think having the other side present makes things more lively and interesting and forces people to share their thoughts in more eloquant, thought out ways (defending something is harder than just talking about something everyone agrees on, is it not?)

So, you may not be changing anyone's mind, and most of us don't agree with you, but I do see you performing a productive role. Debate doesn't exist if everyone thinks the same :nod: Also, everyone remember to avoid any kind of personal attacks. Agree to disagree.

Okay, continue on with your battle royal! fun stuff!

:wavey: adam :wavey:

I suppose you are right. I have this habit though of always evaluating everything in my life to see if I am playing a productive role. And I just felt that around here I wasn't really doing anything worth while...with most here either ignoring me or hating my guts...I just asked myself "What am I bringing to the table here?". I am by no means a great conservative apologist, especially on the computer. I come off so much better in a face to face situation.

Thanks for the words however...I'm still considering what to do though!

[Jyqm]

Well I have been doing a lot of thinking. And you know the majority of what I post is about politics. I mean don't get me wrong I am a huge FM fan, I just tend to be very politically driven on the ledge. I don't think that I am being very productive here. That is not to say that being a ledgie isn't productive, but for me I don't think that it is. I mean obviously I'm not changing anyone’s minds, and most of the people around here wouldn't care one way or another if I just left. So I really don't think I'm going to stick around...just because I don' see myself being productive.

You're going about discussing politics the wrong way if your main goal is to change people's minds (on an Internet message board, anyway). Of course you're not going to feel productive. And of course people are going to get incredibly frustrated with your posts if that's the underlying motive behind all of them.

EDIT: Also, you need to work on how you frame your arguments. It's your little one-liners and talking points that tend to annoy people. Try to discuss these things in a more serious or detailed way without resorting to the same "Government is bad!" "No nanny state!" "Stereotypical liberal!" "Ann Coulter says!" cliches. That crap makes you sound childish and uninformed, and I'm thinking (hoping) that you know better than that and are able to articulate yourself a little better than that. (And I don't think you have any idea what a "nanny state" is if you think the US is one.)

[Jyqm]

The Costco Challenge: An Alternative to Wal-Martization?

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/news/20050706-lre.html

Thank you for posting this article! It was very interesting. I'm glad I now have even more of a reason to like Costco more than Sam's Club,

Wal-Marts make me incredibly nervous. I walked into one of those Supercenters once a couple of years ago and felt so overwhelmed and anxious; I didn't feel better until I was most of the way home.

[Jyqm]

The Costco thing makes me very happy. This is the kind of company that built the middle class and made this country into what was once the envy of the world. 880 million in profit is PLENTY. If the stockholders don't get huge dividends, tough. Who says a compnay has to go public anyway ?
The way they run their company is fair, decent, and respectable. It is HUMANE, And go figure, still profitable.

And an executive who takes less than $500 000 a year for himself! This man is my new hero.