Say You Will running order/double cd/tour debate

[RavenOfRhiannon]

So I am sitting here watching the Destiny Rules doc, and I get to the part about the double cd/single cd controversy and I began to wonder:

1. What was the debate over the runnung order? I remember an interview right after the album release where Lindsey says something along th elines of Stevie 'looking at the album through really dark colors right now.' Was she upset over songs being shuffled?


2. Losing Stevie after 40 dates? I always assumed Stevie was hot to trot for a Mac tour. What's the deal?

3. The 'debate' over the running order must have been bad for it not to be included in the doc...

[mylittledemon]

So I am sitting here watching the Destiny Rules doc, and I get to the part about the double cd/single cd controversy and I began to wonder:

1. What was the debate over the runnung order? I remember an interview right after the album release where Lindsey says something along th elines of Stevie 'looking at the album through really dark colors right now.' Was she upset over songs being shuffled?


2. Losing Stevie after 40 dates? I always assumed Stevie was hot to trot for a Mac tour. What's the deal?

3. The 'debate' over the running order must have been bad for it not to be included in the doc...


Well the show could only be so long, so the documentary had to cut so it would flow well. I mean, there were probably hundreds of hours of footage to deal with.

In terms of the running order, I think since it was originally supposed to be a double record, there were about 6 tracks that got cut out. Therefore, the order would need to change so the flow of the album would be better. I still dont like the flow of the record after Peacekeeper.

Losing Stevie after 40 dates? They may have initially only signed on to do a US 40-date tour...and then depending on how well that went, go out and do other countries. I think they added more and more dates, as 1) they were having fun and 2) the album didnt sell too well.

[Johnny Stew]

1. What was the debate over the runnung order? I remember an interview right after the album release where Lindsey says something along th elines of Stevie 'looking at the album through really dark colors right now.' Was she upset over songs being shuffled?In another interview, he said that it's Stevie's natural inclination to put the "dark" and "heavy" songs towards the end of an album, but that he didn't want them "buried."

So that was probably the big sequencing fight.

And, in my opinion, Lindsey's judgement was completely off. By placing "Murrow" and "Illume" as the second and third tracks, he made the album top-heavy. He should have built up to the "dark" songs.

[ragandbone]

And, in my opinion, Lindsey's judgement was completely off. By placing "Murrow" and "Illume" as the second and third tracks, he made the album top-heavy. He should have built up to the "dark" songs.
I agree. When I play the album, I often skip forward, and then hopscotch back through the songs, ending with the darker ones.

The album is hidden away for a while right now due to the debate we have in our own house about the running order of the songs.
My 2 year old prefers, no, demands this song order:
1.Say You Will
2.Say You Will
3.Say You Will
4.just the first half of Say You Will
5.Peacekeeper
6.Peacekeeper
7.Say You Will
8. What's the Wor...Say You Will
:distress:

[Neb-Maat-Re]

My 2 year old prefers, no, demands this song order:
1.Say You Will
2.Say You Will
3.Say You Will
4.just the first half of Say You Will
5.Peacekeeper
6.Peacekeeper
7.Say You Will
8. What's the Wor...Say You Will
:distress:

As an aside, my 3 yo calls Tusk "The Dog People".

[ragandbone]

As an aside, my 3 yo calls Tusk "The Dog People".
:lol:
"RUFF! Don't say you won't walk me!"

[Lindsey Jr.]

This a difficult album, when I first heard it, it was "holy..." But the more I listened to it, the more I started to like this. Syw is now my third favorite album, after rumours & tusk. I agree with everyone that says that they should've built up the heavy stuff.

[Jyqm]

In another interview, he said that it's Stevie's natural inclination to put the "dark" and "heavy" songs towards the end of an album, but that he didn't want them "buried."

This from the woman who opened her first solo album with "Bella Donna"?

And, in my opinion, Lindsey's judgement was completely off. By placing "Murrow" and "Illume" as the second and third tracks, he made the album top-heavy. He should have built up to the "dark" songs.

I like "Illume" up toward the front, but I agree that "Murrow" should be further back. When I made my CD of Gift of Screws songs, I had "Murrow" squarely in the middle - kind of where "Come" is on SYW - and "Come" toward the end.

Part of me thinks that the running order for SYW could never have been perfect on a single CD. It's just too long of an album, and it's difficult to maintain that kind of flow. I usually skip around the album as well when I'm listening to it.

[face of glass]

It is not surprising that Stevie would have preferred the darker material and the smoother, more easy-listening material to be separated from each other; after all this is a woman who hasn't had the guts to be hugely diverse (by the Nicksian standards) on her solo albums after Rock A Little and who has chosen to focus on homogenous soundscapes in her solo work for her last three solo albums. By wanting to keep the darker material separate from the 'prozac' side of the album she is obviously thinking of what are usually considered to be typical Mac listeners, those who used to listen to Fleetwood Mac's brand of 'soft-rock' as innocent wallpaper music. (But then, it might be her preferred way of making and listening to albums these days, I don't believe it's just her business sense talking there.) Of course, should the darker material have been buried into the last half of the album, such listeners more likely wouldn't have wanted to listen to the latter half more than once.

Naturally such a thing does not fit Lindsey's plans, after all he has always wanted to show his true emotional diversity to EVERYONE (whether they like it or not). Say You Will as it was released is as close to the musically and emotionally diverse spirit of the '60s as Tusk is and that's what makes it such a thrilling emotional ride; when all these various streams of emotions follow each other in succession it is just that: a musically intense and challenging experience; all its seemingly random schizophrenic sides making up a fascinating combined whole. It is like life itself in the end, with a LOT of bumps on the road instead of being the smooth ride that people often want it to be.

This thing was reflected in choosing the right person to mix the album too; Stevie would have preferred Chris Lord-Alge, someone who had mixed both Out Of The Cradle and Trouble In Shangri-La, both very obviously homogenous and smooth-sounding albums. Stevie obviously wanted the sound ideal of Say You Will to be closer to her latest solo album. However, I think Lindsey saw it differently; he wanted a NOTABLY diverse album, he didn't want a repetition of OOTC or TISL, especially now that many think TISL is the closest Stevie has come to sounding like Fleetwood Mac in her solo career, so no wonder Lindsey wanted Say You Will to sound different from that. And Mark Needham helped him in achieving this diverse ideal of the '60s and therefore was the right person for the job. Say You Will goes from smooth to threatening and menacing in the blink of an eye, more so than any other Fleetwood Mac album and that is why it holds a special place in the heart of this muso.

Of course, it doesn't really matter much what the album contains in the end. It was bound not to sell much by the standards of Fleetwood Mac, it had been six years since The Dance already, Christine was out of the picture and in the end the album was only bought by the hardcores. So because of that it wouldn't have mattered if the album had been a double album, and even its musical content wouldn't have mattered much, it was likely to sell as much as it did anyway. And because the band gets most of its money from touring, not from the album itself, especially when you have to cover the recording costs which are always huge when it comes to Fleetwood Mac, it certainly doesn't matter much anymore how smooth the running order of a Fleetwood Mac album is or what kind of music the album itself contains. They are in a position to do however they please and they are always destined to get moderate record sales. And that is why I see Stevie's concerns of the running order and other such matters to be largely unjustified.

[chiliD]

I think the running order of the album as is STINKS.:cool:

Here's my alternate long running order (with a couple of track changes, too):

SAY YOU WILL
BLEED TO LOVE HER
THROWN DOWN
MIRANDA
WHAT'S THE WORLD COMING TO
EVERYBODY FINDS OUT
MURROW TURNING OVER IN HIS GRAVE
ILLUME
SAY GOODBYE
DESTINY RULES
PEACEKEEPER
NOT MAKE BELIEVE
RED ROVER
SMILE AT YOU
COME
SILVER GIRL
STEAL YOUR HEART AWAY
GOODBYE BABY

My Say You Will as a single LP running order:

SAY YOU WILL
BLEED TO LOVE HER
THROWN DOWN
MURROW TURNING OVER IN HIS GRAVE
ILLUME
SAY GOODBYE

DESTINY RULES
PEACEKEEPER
SMILE AT YOU
RED ROVER
STEAL YOUR HEART AWAY
GOODBYE BABY

CD single:
01-SAY YOU WILL (album version)
02-THROWN DOWN (wall of sound version)
03-LOVE MINUS ZERO/NO LIMIT

[David]

But then, it might be her preferred way of making and listening to albums these days, I don't believe it's just her business sense talking there.It's not. It's her actual taste talking. She has mass-market taste. She has talked enough about her favorite music in the past to give us all a better-than-good idea of the music she digs.

In terms of preferences, Stevie has a lot more in common with Christine & John than she does with Lindsey or Mick.

[danax6]

It's not. It's her actual taste talking. She has mass-market taste. She has talked enough about her favorite music in the past to give us all a better-than-good idea of the music she digs.

In terms of preferences, Stevie has a lot more in common with Christine & John than she does with Lindsey or Mick.Plus, she prays to the commercial Gods, while Lindsey would be satisfied living in a two bedroom apartment all for the sake of art. :laugh:

[SortaSavageLike]

Plus, she prays to the commercial Gods, while Lindsey would be satisfied living in a two bedroom apartment all for the sake of art. :laugh:

On the other hand, she's written more downbeat and/or depressing songs than Christine and Lindsey combined. :shrug:

[DavidMn]

Well, I would have DEFINITELY put Love Minus Zero/No Limit on SYW, even though it wasnt one of their songs. Goodbye Baby couldve been dropped for that as far as I'm concerned.:nod:

[shackin'up]

Gaius Rules. I say he rules.

[David]

Gaius Rules. I say he rules.Who? You mean that funny butthead of a Finn?

[dissention]

Here's my alternate long running order (with a couple of track changes, too):

SAY YOU WILL
BLEED TO LOVE HER
THROWN DOWN



Fug. If those were the first three songs I heard, I'd be ready to sell it to a used record shop already.

[shackin'up]

Who? You mean that funny butthead of a Finn?

yeah...a bit selfindulged, but still....

I did not want to quote that whole post, but I agree with him. A lot.

Oh and the fact that Stevie wrote depressing songs is oh so true, but that doesn't say anything about her taste and approach towards the music industry. I wish her industry-approach was more like Storms and less like Say You Will. So I agree with you, David that she has more in common with the McVie's than with Mick And Linds... when it comes to bussiness-approach....

[face of glass]

I did not want to quote that whole post, but I agree with him. A lot.
Hrm, uh, ok. :o
Oh and the fact that Stevie wrote depressing songs is oh so true, but that doesn't say anything about her taste and approach towards the music industry.
One thing I'd like to add is that songs that some people actually consider 'downbeat' and/or 'dark' like "Rhiannon", "Landslide", "Dreams" or "Sara" are notable classics, and some of them have even been significant hits, so Stevie's sense of darkness certainly wasn't uncommercial in the past. Now when are we going to see the depression of "Street Of Dreams" hit the top of the charts?

And just because a song is uplifting doesn't mean that it's commercial in the environment it's released in. Songs like "The Ledge", "That's Enough For Me", and "Red Rover" are pretty uncommercial when compared to the American mainstream of the times.

But then everyone who releases a certain type of music for a specified audience is commercial in my book, no matter how much they sell. And that includes everyone in the business. The difference with Lindsey Buckingham is that his diversity has no obvious target groups. It's a set of combined values from both classic rock and punk/new wave, the target groups of which have rarely been able to tolerate each other. Only the real musos (or Fleetwood Mac fans who were familiar with him in the first place) are willing to even give all of his material a proper chance, and the amount of those people on the planet has never been huge.

[Jyqm]

Now when are we going to see the male depression of "Street Of Dreams" hit the top of the charts?

There's certainly been no shortage of "depressed male" music topping the charts in the past decade (in the US, at least). Unfortunately, none of it's been any good at all, let alone on the level of "Street of Dreams."

[face of glass]

Unfortunately, none of it's been any good at all, let alone on the level of "Street of Dreams."
Which is why I've always associated "Street Of Dreams" with material from Plastic Ono Band or a couple of the album tracks from Joy Division's Closer, music that had no chance of hitting the top of the charts because the depression that comes out of those is pretty sophisticated and ultimately cathartic. Unlike the things you mentioned. Not that it makes the chart-topping material automatically bad, but hey.

[Jyqm]

Damian Rice comes immediately to mind. They play him all the time in the UK, especially after the movie Closer.

I was thinking more along the lines of bands like Staind, but yes there's that contingent too!

Although I agree with Gaius to an extent, I do think if Lindsey was a younger artist then he probably would do well with mainstream audiences at the moment. I do think being an older artist and being linked with Fleetwood Mac does hold him down in many ways.
Does that make sense? Or am I talking rubbish as usual?

No, I think you're absolutely right. If Lindsey were 25 and hitting the scene right now, he could potentially be very popular, at least among certain contingents. But being old and associated with the Mac, he's just not even on a lot of people's radar screens.

[chiliD]

Which is why I've always associated "Street Of Dreams" with material from Plastic Ono Band

BITE YOUR TONGUE!!! (or in this case, chew your nails).

Comparing Lindsey to John Lennon...bring on the Spanish Inquisition...that's blasphemy. You heretic!!

[strandinthewind]

BITE YOUR TONGUE!!! (or in this case, chew your nails).

Comparing Lindsey to John Lennon...bring on the Spanish Inquisition...that's blasphemy. You heretic!!

Does that mean the logical extension of that nonlogic is La Nicks screeches like Yoko :laugh:

[face of glass]

I do think being an older artist and being linked with Fleetwood Mac does hold him down in many ways.
Had he left Fleetwood Mac after Tusk (which is what some people, even some of his fans, would have wanted to happen anyway) I think he would have been far better off building a solo career had he chosen a particular image and a style of music for himself. Yet he didn't choose that, I just believe he was following his artistic impulses in most cases (save for things like "Oh Diane", but who knows). And obviously he liked the taste of success that Fleetwood Mac gave him. ;) Very few musicians would have wanted to give up on something like that after all, when it was still happening.

Lindsey's diversity in music obviously is reflected in his image too; Stevie for instance has always had a strong image and that was one of the things that helped her to achieve such solo success. Lindsey likes to underline his sexuality from time to time, what with sexual guitar solos on stage, with his chest hair being visible and with some of his publicity shots. In addition, though, he can be a very reclusive personality. So in the world of classic rock sexuality has usually been a big selling point, in the world of punk/new wave (and other forms of it that followed) it has been cool to be non-sexual and even isolationist to a huge degree. So the point I'm trying to make is: Lindsey's musical diversity reflects his personality first and foremost. He is NOT trying to intentionally confuse people.

[face of glass]

Comparing Lindsey to John Lennon...bring on the Spanish Inquisition...that's blasphemy. You heretic!!
Oh please. I said that one Lindsey song reminds me of material on Plastic Ono Band. I didn't say it was better or as good as Lennon's material on that particular album.

Or should I start complaining about how you've compared "Hard Feelings" and "That Made Me Stronger" to Magical Mystery Tour era Beatles then? ;)

[trackaghost]

I like Lindsey more than the Beatles :p

[David]

I like Lindsey more than the Beatles :pIsn't it sorta freaky that "Fleetwood Mac Live" was released the same day Lennon got killed?

[Jyqm]

And obviously he liked the taste of success that Fleetwood Mac gave him. ;) Very few musicians would have wanted to give up on something like that after all, when it was still happening.

Unless it was those wackos who started the band, of course!

[HomerMcvie]

Does that mean the logical extension of that nonlogic is La Nicks screeches like Yoko :laugh:
:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo: Makes perfect sense to me!:D