9/11 - What About PA and DC?

[desertangel]

I think it's a terrible shame the media focuses so much on the NY 9/11 tragedy and gives little or no time to the other two crashes that took place that day. At first I thought it seemed very disrespectful to the living relatives of those people, however, maybe some of them are happy they don't have to hear about it over and over every year.

Feel free to add your two cents.

Laura

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I think it's a terrible shame the media focuses so much on the NY 9/11 tragedy and gives little or no time to the other two crashes that took place that day. At first I thought it seemed very disrespectful to the living relatives of those people, however, maybe some of them are happy they don't have to hear about it over and over every year.

Feel free to add your two cents.

Laura

Actually PA gets about just as much attention as WTC attacks. Flight 77, gets the least amount of attention. I believe this to be true because, there were only two phones calls made from that flight (including one by Barbara Olson to her husband), and also there is no real video of the airplane hitting the Pentagon (only a camera which took still photographs)...so they don't really have all that much to recreate the events and such of Flight 77. But I think everyone remembers and will never forget...I don't think it is because they think it is any "less" important.

Ironically, because so little is known about Flight 77, there has been this crazy theory circulating out there, that it never really did hit the Pentagon. Because the explosion was to small, they aimed the plane for a new section of the Pentagon which didn't have that many people working in it yet, and also because almost all of the people on Flight 77 were somehow involved with the government/politics...etc...

It's wierd I know! lol

[MoonChilde]

Actually PA gets about just as much attention as WTC attacks. Flight 77, gets the least amount of attention. I believe this to be true because, there were only two phones calls made from that flight (including one by Barbara Olson to her husband), and also there is no real video of the airplane hitting the Pentagon (only a camera which took still photographs)...so they don't really have all that much to recreate the events and such of Flight 77. But I think everyone remembers and will never forget...I don't think it is because they think it is any "less" important.

Ironically, because so little is known about Flight 77, there has been this crazy theory circulating out there, that it never really did hit the Pentagon. Because the explosion was to small, they aimed the plane for a new section of the Pentagon which didn't have that many people working in it yet, and also because almost all of the people on Flight 77 were somehow involved with the government/politics...etc...

It's wierd I know! lol

There is also the theory -rumour circulating that the plane that hit the Pentagon is one the US jets...As the theory goes, they have never found parts of the plane and on the web cam's that day they say the image is not one of a commerical airliner but a fighter jet..Just a theory I read somewhere..?

[gldstwmn]

I think it's a terrible shame the media focuses so much on the NY 9/11 tragedy and gives little or no time to the other two crashes that took place that day. At first I thought it seemed very disrespectful to the living relatives of those people, however, maybe some of them are happy they don't have to hear about it over and over every year.

Feel free to add your two cents.

Laura

Well, they did have that giant parade in D.|C. yesterday. I thought it was in poor taste to do so considering the national tragedy we just had. I thought it was in poor taste anyway.

[gldstwmn]

There is also the theory -rumour circulating that the plane that hit the Pentagon is one the US jets...As the theory goes, they have never found parts of the plane and on the web cam's that day they say the image is not one of a commerical airliner but a fighter jet..Just a theory I read somewhere..?

Supposedly, the surveillance tape from a nearby gas station was the only tape that actually showed the crash. It was confiscated by, I think the FBI afterwards an no one has seen it since.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Supposedly, the surveillance tape from a nearby gas station was the only tape that actually showed the crash. It was confiscated by, I think the FBI afterwards an no one has seen it since.

Yes I read that, but I mean there is no doubt (in my mind anyways) that Flight 77 did in fact crash into the Pentagon...if it dindn't then where in the world is everyone of those people on the plane then!

[wondergirl9847]

They showed a documentary type thing on Flight 93 called "The Flight that Fought Back" and played some audio that had me crying and being very proud. Proud of people I'd never met, people I didn't even know existed. I kept thinking "What would I have done in that situation?" I panic at the sight of a cockroach on my kitchen floor for Pete sake! I am not the person you want around to help kick someone's a$$. LOL I always daydream about being a hero, saving someone's life, but in that case, would I have helped them take those a-holes down? I would hope so, but I don't know. I would have been so scared from just the plane ride itself (they said he turned the plane back and forth to get them to stop coming toward the cockpit. Blergh.). I don't even like light turbulence, that incident would have had me screaming and crying. :distress:

Brave folks. :)

[GypsySorcerer]

I saw most of the documentary on Flight 93. It was heart-wrenching. I cannot imagine calling a loved one to say goodbye from a hijacked plane, nor can I imagine how those on the receiving felt.

[DavidMn]

There is also the theory -rumour circulating that the plane that hit the Pentagon is one the US jets...As the theory goes, they have never found parts of the plane and on the web cam's that day they say the image is not one of a commerical airliner but a fighter jet..Just a theory I read somewhere..?
I know someone who saw the plane flying low in DC and they said it was an AMerican Airlines jet, for whatever that's worth.

[estranged4life]

Supposedly, the surveillance tape from a nearby gas station was the only tape that actually showed the crash. It was confiscated by, I think the FBI afterwards an no one has seen it since.

the 100+ security cameras in/around the Murrah Building on April 19,1995 that showed "nothing", Kinda strange during Terry Nichols state trial those video tapes were brought up and the FBI was asked about what they recorded....The FBI said "nothing".

Yeah right.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I know someone who saw the plane flying low in DC and they said it was an AMerican Airlines jet, for whatever that's worth.

Yea, I have heard people say that they also saw the plane low to the ground in DC! I believe that it really did hit the Pentagon, I mean there is no other way to explain it really...what about the phone calls made from the plane by Barbara and others! Although I did read that Flight 77 had the least amount of calls made from it than any of the other highjacked planes.

[mylittledemon]

WEll it is a shame...what really bakes my noodle is the fact that they didnt shoot the plane down when supposedly the "orders" where given but the pilots didnt "understand." It could've saved some lives. Then again, being up in the air and faced with shooting down innocent Americans on a commercial airliner must be a tough decision to make.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

WEll it is a shame...what really bakes my noodle is the fact that they didnt shoot the plane down when supposedly the "orders" where given but the pilots didnt "understand." It could've saved some lives. Then again, being up in the air and faced with shooting down innocent Americans on a commercial airliner must be a tough decision to make.

I think the order, to shoot, was given 28 (could be off there) minutes after Flight 93 went down.

[ontheEdgeof17]

The flight that crashed in PA is rumoured to be shot down. Some people in this area saw the plane burst into flames in mid-air. The interview from someone who saw it was ripped from CNN after it only aired once. This is all hearsay.

[gldstwmn]

the 100+ security cameras in/around the Murrah Building on April 19,1995 that showed "nothing", Kinda strange during Terry Nichols state trial those video tapes were brought up and the FBI was asked about what they recorded....The FBI said "nothing".

Yeah right.

Yes Brian, that's exactly what I'm talking about. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

The flight that crashed in PA is rumoured to be shot down. Some people in this area saw the plane burst into flames in mid-air. The interview from someone who saw it was ripped from CNN after it only aired once. This is all hearsay.

The debris was scattered over a large area and one of the jet engines was found over 5 miles from the crash site, I believe. That's certainly not indicative of a plane crash.

[desertangel]

Good Lord ya'll... most of this stuff in your replies I NEVER heard before. Guess it all answers my question on why there wasn't more coverage of those two crashes.

I admit, I didn't watch too many shows on the 9/11 anniversary and all because I'm one of those people that will lose sleep if I let too much of that kind of thing into my consciousness. So I guess I missed whatever shows DID have something on the two other flights. I heard there was going to be a movie made of the PA flight. Hmmm... maybe that's to help squelch any speculation.

Yanno, ever since Watergate, I haven't been able to totally trust what the "gubment" says. Heck, I was even trying to speculate if Katrina could have been created. I guess it's bad enough that the levees had to fail, more people hadn't been evacuated and FEMA had'nt made a faster/stronger response. URG... just makes me wanna run and hide somewhere. :(

I'm gonna go light a Lavendar scented candle now. :o

Laura

[ontheEdgeof17]

The debris was scattered over a large area and one of the jet engines was found over 5 miles from the crash site, I believe. That's certainly not indicative of a plane crash.

:nod:

CNN interviewed a guy who said he saw the plane burst into flames. It only aired once. The government is trying to hide the fact they shot it down.....and playing up the "they fought back" theory. IMO.

[gldstwmn]

:nod:

CNN interviewed a guy who said he saw the plane burst into flames. It only aired once. The government is trying to hide the fact they shot it down.....and playing up the "they fought back" theory. IMO.

Absolutely. They couldn't possibly tell everyone who took the phrase "Let's roll!" to heart after the tragedy that they shot the damn thing down. Funny thing is, I wonder if the passengers could have prevailed.

[estranged4life]

I believe the terrorists crashed it (Flight 93) into the ground to keep those who fought back from taking control of the plane after having their mission fail, The official audio translations used on the Discovery Channel special is some convincing evidence..."Should we put it down now? Yes, put it down....Allah ackbar".

Never heard about the engine being found 5 miles away though (That's if we are talking about Flight 93 instead of Flight 77)...If Flight 93 was in a steep decent with the turbines at maximum thrust then the engine could have broken off easily from the wing due to structural fatigue failure (Good ol' NDT comes in handy still in regards to the structural integrity of a airline jet.)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:nod:

CNN interviewed a guy who said he saw the plane burst into flames. It only aired once. The government is trying to hide the fact they shot it down.....and playing up the "they fought back" theory. IMO.

They did fight back...and I think it is unfair to them and their families to go on "theories" when the truth is in the black box. Although, if the government did shoot it down, I don't blame them...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I believe the terrorists crashed it (Flight 93) into the ground to keep those who fought back from taking control of the plane after having their mission fail, The official audio translations used on the Discovery Channel special is some convincing evidence..."Should we put it down now? Yes, put it down....Allah ackbar".

Never heard about the engine being found 5 miles away though (That's if we are talking about Flight 93 instead of Flight 77)...If Flight 93 was in a steep decent with the turbines at maximum thrust then the engine could have broken off easily from the wing due to structural fatigue failure (Good ol' NDT comes in handy still in regards to the structural integrity of a airline jet.)

I agree with you. Conspiracy Theories are a pain in the ass, everyone has them, but they can't be proven...I believe what they say happened...happened.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Absolutely. They couldn't possibly tell everyone who took the phrase "Let's roll!" to heart after the tragedy that they shot the damn thing down. Funny thing is, I wonder if the passengers could have prevailed.

They did prevail. The plane didn't end up crashing into the capitol did it?

[strandinthewind]

They did fight back...and I think it is unfair to them and their families to go on "theories" when the truth is in the black box. Although, if the government did shoot it down, I don't blame them...


Well, that black box was decoded by the govt. and I do not trust them one bit :laugh:

I trust eyewitnesses much more.

Also, it could be both occurred, ie. it was shot down while the passengers were trying to regain control of the jet. It could also be that the improper steering that occured when the passengers tried to regain control caused too much stress and the plane shattered in flight and then exploded.

[strandinthewind]

I agree with you. Conspiracy Theories are a pain in the ass, everyone has them, but they can't be proven...I believe what they say happened...happened.


I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale and BTW - SH is trying to buy yellow cake from Niger :rolleyes: Are you really that gullable :eek: I mean the govt. has been lying to us for decades :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Well, that black box was decoded by the govt. and I do not trust them one bit :laugh:

I trust eyewitnesses much more.

Also, it could be both occurred, ie. it was shot down while the passengers were trying to regain control of the jet. It could also be that the improper steering that occured when the passengers tried to regain control caused too much stress and the plane shattered in flight and then exploded.

I'm more prone to believe your last theory there, that sounds logical. However there are several eyewitnesses who NEVER saw anything about the plane catching on fire before crashing.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale and BTW - SH is trying to buy yellow cake from Niger :rolleyes: Are you really that gullable :eek: I mean the govt. has been lying to us for decades :shrug:

But the fact that everything else, besides the gov., PROVES just the opposite of these insane theories...is enough for me. I don't go and look for some off-the-wall theory.

[strandinthewind]

They did prevail. The plane didn't end up crashing into the capitol did it?

Bless your heart, I am sure that is not what the passengers had in mind - They were trying to regain control, which is demostrated on the tapes. But, if you have proof they knew where it was going and deceided to ditch the plane, let's see it.

[strandinthewind]

But the fact that everything else, besides the gov., PROVES just the opposite of these insane theories...is enough for me. I don't go and look for some off-the-wall theory.


Planes that crash are never spread over a five mile area. That demonstrates an explosion, not a crash :shrug: So, what is this "fact" you are relying on.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Planes that crash are never spread over a five mile area. That demonstrates an explosion, not a crash :shrug: So, what is this "fact" you are relying on.

Well, even if it was shot down (which I still am not to sure I believe)...I still believe that every single person (besides the terrorists) in that plane was a hero for what they tried to do...I just don't want that taken away from them.

[strandinthewind]

I'm more prone to believe your last theory there, that sounds logical. However there are several eyewitnesses who NEVER saw anything about the plane catching on fire before crashing.

Here are most of the quotes:

Flight 93 Eyewitness Accounts
Crash Witnesses Accounts:

"I heard like a boom and the engine sounded funny," she told the Daily News. "I heard two more booms - and then I did not hear anything."

What does Temyer think she heard? "I think the plane was shot down,"
http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily_news/2001/11/18/local/SHOT15C.htm


"It came in low over the trees and started wobbling," said Tim Thornsberg, a resident of Somerset County, who was working near an old strip mine when he saw the plane.

"Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees. It was just unreal to see something like that."
http://www.pittsburgh.com/partners/wpxi/news/flightheroes.html

Eric Peterson, 28, was working in his shop in the Somerset County village of Lambertsville yesterday morning when he heard a plane, looked up and saw one fly over unusually low.

The plane continued on beyond a nearby hill, then dropped out of sight behind a tree line. As it did so, Peterson said it seemed to be turning end-over-end.

Then Peterson said he saw a fireball, heard an explosion and saw a mushroom cloud of smoke rise into the sky.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

“I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair.
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html#3


Eric Peterson of Lambertsville looked up when he heard the plane. "It was low enough, I thought you could probably count the rivets," Peterson said. "You could see more of the roof of the plane than you could the belly. It was on its side."

"There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/100028703529429109.xml

“Normally I wouldn’t look up, but I just heard on the news that all the planes were grounded and thought this was probably the last one I would see for a while, so I looked up,” she said. “I didn’t see the plane but I heard the plane’s engine. Then I heard a loud thump that echoed off the hills and then I heard the plane’s engine. I heard two more loud thumps and didn’t hear the plane’s engine anymore after that.”
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html#3


"We didn't hear that plane coming until it was right on top of us," she said. "Then there was a roar." She said the plane appeared to be gliding into the ground. "All at once it just stopped. There was no engine noise, nothing. Someone hollered, Oh my God!' and then there was a real loud thud."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/100028703529429109.xml


Shortly after 10 a.m., workers on farms and scrap yards in Somerset County looked up to see an airliner flying low and erratic at an estimated 450 mph.
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html#3

Bob Blair of Stoystown was driving a coal truck on state Route 30 when he saw the jet plummet "straight down." Barn windowpanes for half a mile around shattered as the jet dived into a reclaimed strip mine and exploded at 10:10 a. m.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/17/MN40630.DTL

A witness told WTAE-TV's Paul Van Osdol that she saw the plane overhead. It made a high-pitched, screeching sound. The plane then made a sharp, 90-degree downward turn and crashed.
http://newsandviews.tripod.com/news/091101tv2.html

Bob Blair was completing a routine drive to Shade Creek just after 10 a.m. Tuesday, when he saw a huge silver plane fly past him just above the treetops and crash into the woods along Lambertsville Road.
Blair, of Stoystown, a driver with Jim Barron Trucking of Somerset, was traveling in a coal truck along with Doug Miller of Somerset, when they saw the plane spiraling to the ground and then explode on the outskirts of Lambertsville.
“I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair.
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html


Another witness, Michael Merringer, said he was out on a mountain bike ride with his wife, Amy, about two miles from the crash site.


"(I) heard the engine gun two different times," he said. "(I) heard a loud bang and the windows of the houses all around rattled."
http://www.pjstar.com/news/worldtrade/g34835a.html

Larry Williams, a former state police trooper who is now a private investigator, was golfing on the 17th green at Oakbrook Golf Course about eight miles away when he heard the engines “roar real loud and shut off.”
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html#3

"We got the call about 9:58 this morning from a male passenger stating that he was locked in the bathroom of United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to San Francisco, and they were being hijacked," said Glenn Cramer, a 911 supervisor.

"We confirmed that with him several times and we asked him to repeat what he said. He was very distraught. He said he believed the plane was going down. He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where.

"And then we lost contact with him."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp


Meanwhile, investigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby Indian Lake (2.5 miles from main crash site), where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes."

"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said. Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane.
I lost this link.. but since the witness name is there I've left it up.

Some witnesses reported that the plane was flying upside down for a time before the crash; others said they heard up to three loud booms before the jetliner went down.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

"There was no way anything was left," Pluta added. "There was just charred pieces of metal and a big hole. The plane didn't slide into the crash. It went straight into the ground. Wings out. Nose down."

Bits of metal were thrown against a tree line like shrapnel, said state police spokesman Trooper Thomas Spallone of Troop A in Greensburg.

"Once it hit, everything just disintegrated," he said. "There are just shreds of metal. The longest piece I saw was 2 feet long."
http://www.mypittsburghlive.com/mypittsburghlive/scripts/editorial.dll?render=y&eetype=Article&eeid=5245814

http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_eyewitness.html

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Bless your heart, I am sure that is not what the passengers had in mind - They were trying to regain control, which is demostrated on the tapes. But, if you have proof they knew where it was going and deceided to ditch the plane, let's see it.

You didn't understand what I was saying. Of course they had no idea where it was headed. They were trying to regain control TO SAVE THEIR LIVES! But the fact that it didn't make it to its destination...means, in some way, that they did succeed.

[strandinthewind]

Well, even if it was shot down (which I still am not to sure I believe)...I still believe that every single person (besides the terrorists) in that plane was a hero for what they tried to do...I just don't want that taken away from them.

I don't think anyone is trying to do that here. They are just noting that it is possible the govt. shot it down and if it did, why the cover up.

Interestingly, the plane that crashed a month or so later after leaving JFK was also under suspicious circumstances.

[strandinthewind]

You didn't understand what I was saying. Of course they had no idea where it was headed. They were trying to regain control TO SAVE THEIR LIVES! But the fact that it didn't make it to its destination...means, in some way, that they did succeed.

From your point of view, but perhaps not their's :shrug:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

From your point of view, but perhaps not their's :shrug:

Well you know, being dead now, they have no idea the lives they did save. I think that in retrospect...if they were able to look back now...they would be proud that they saved hundreds of lives.

[strandinthewind]

Well you know, being dead now, they have no idea the lives they did save. I think that in retrospect...if they were able to look back now...they would be proud that they saved hundreds of lives.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and that is noble gesture to make.

However, in hindsight, I suggest they would be pissed W and cronies paid no attention whatsoever to the continuously warned of threat of Al-Q including, inter alia, a memo. a month earlier indicating OBL wanted to attack America via commerical aircraft. I prove my point by noting plenty of the relations of the victims are pissed about this latter hindsight.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Hindsight is always 20/20 and that is noble gesture to make.

However, in hindsight, I suggest they would be pissed W and cronies paid no attention whatsoever to the continuously warned of threat of Al-Q including, inter alia, a memo. a month earlier indicating OBL wanted to attack America via commerical aircraft. I prove my point by noting plenty of the relations of the victims are pissed about this latter hindsight.

:rolleyes: Bush running out of the classroom on Sept. 11..."no no no, hit me, take me instead." :rolleyes:

can't change history, what's done is done.

But I do have to say that Ms. Barbara Olson on Flight 77...would be the first to blame the Clinton administration for the lack of military and funding.

[strandinthewind]

:rolleyes: Bush running out of the classroom on Sept. 11..."no no no, hit me, take me instead." :rolleyes:

can't change history, what's done is done.

But I do have to say that Ms. Barbara Olson on Flight 77...would be the first to blame the Clinton administration for the lack of military and funding.

LOL - you have got to stop getting your info from that woman - she lies :wavey:

BTW - W is doing a pretty good job of cutting the military as well, but he does it with post-injury benefits and the like. What a gem he is for that. But, then again, he has never been in combat and Cheney had better things to do - so how would they know what it feels like.

But, back to the point, W did nothing to the military after Clinton left and in fact was proposing reduction of it. Then, that SAME military was used in Afganistan and Iraq - both places you have previously asserted the military performed well. So, which is it? I smell a flip flop :laugh:

P.S. You do realize you have never won an argument here don't you :laugh:

In any event, here is an interesting editorial on this topic and the facts in it are accurate despite the biased source and there are many more like this out there.

Clinton's Military Legacy

President Bush owes a major debt of gratitude to his predecessor.

By Steven J. Nider

The United States has had two big demonstrations of American military power on George W. Bush's watch that have been spectacularly successful. The irony here is that Bush fought these wars with the military Bill Clinton bequeathed to him.

"A commander-in-chief leads the military built by those who came before him," then-vice presidential candidate Dick Cheney said during the 2000 campaign. "There is little that he or his defense secretary can do to improve the force they have to deploy. It is all the work of previous administrations. Decisions made today shape the force of tomorrow."

On this point he was certainly correct. Despite frequent Republican criticism during the 2000 presidential campaign of Clinton-era military deterioration, the force that was so successful in Afghanistan and Iraq -- while continuing to perform a myriad of tasks around the world on a daily basis -- was clearly quite capable. Republican assertions that the military was underfunded and overstretched and that readiness was poor were contradicted by those performances in Afghanistan and Iraq. Moreover, by Vice President Cheney's own standard, this force did not result from anything done by the current administration. The first Bush defense budget went into effect on Oct. 1, 2002, and none of the funds in that budget has yet had an impact on the quality of the men and women in the armed services, their readiness for combat, or the weapons they used to destroy Taliban or Iraqi forces.

As a presidential candidate, then-Gov. George W. Bush routinely declared that he wanted a new military shaped for a new world. In his frequently cited speech at the Citadel military academy in September 1999, he said:

As president, I will begin an immediate, comprehensive review of our military -- the structure of its forces, the state of its strategy, the priorities of its procurement -- conducted by a leadership team under the secretary of Defense. I will give the secretary a broad mandate -- to challenge the status quo and envision a new architecture of American defense for decades to come. We will modernize some existing weapons and equipment, necessary for current tasks. But our relative peace allows us to do this selectively. The real goal is to move beyond marginal improvements -- to replace existing programs with new technologies and strategies. To use this window of opportunity to skip a generation of technology. This will require spending more -- and spending more wisely.

This was a bold vision of the military that accurately expressed the need for major, ongoing change. Unfortunately, it has not been matched with sufficient vision and programmatic commitment by the Bush administration. The 2001 Quadrennial Defense Review, the comprehensive review promised by candidate Bush, fell substantially short of its stated objective. It did not articulate a sweeping new strategy, it did not call for any change in existing force structure, and it did not suggest any major redirection of investment in future systems. Moreover, until the events of Sept. 11, 2001, the Bush administration had not suggested any major increase in defense spending. In most respects, the review looked very much like what one might have expected from the Clinton administration. Essentially, the only major change was the increased emphasis on missile defense.

The Bush administration had barely started to make its mark on defense policy before hostilities in Afghanistan began. In the spring of 2001, it requested and received a $5 billion supplemental appropriation for the 2001 defense budget, but that constituted less than 2 percent of defense spending for the year -- mostly for pay raises -- and went largely unnoticed before the war began. The most recent defense budget submitted to Congress by the Bush administration would increase defense spending significantly, but it fails once again to make tough choices and provide a necessary vision of leadership. While U.S. forces in Iraq were a model of what a transformed U.S. military should be, the Pentagon continues to invest in Cold War military hardware -- fighter aircraft, destroyers, and other weapons designed to fight advanced Soviet military capabilities.

In fact, the Clinton administration actually spent more money on defense than the previous administration of President George H.W. Bush. The smaller outlays during the first Bush administration were developed and approved by then-Defense Secretary Cheney and then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell. The Clinton administration did not coast on Reagan-era procurement funding. During the 1990s, the Pentagon invested more than $1 trillion in developing and procuring new weapons and information technology that gave U.S. forces such an unprecedented advantage in the last two U.S. military campaigns. But more significant than the budget increases was the shift that occurred in the mid-1990s. That shift involved much greater emphasis on precision weapons, sensors, robotics, advanced communications, training, readiness, and orienting the intelligence community toward direct support of military operations. It was that shift that produced the superb military that not only swept through Iraq at a rate that defied historical precedent, but used its awesome force with unprecedented precision and effect, unprecedented low collateral damage, and unprecedented low casualty rates. It was the American Revolution in Military Affairs begun in the Clinton administration that was unveiled in Bush's Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The combination of Joint Defense Attack Munitions (JDAMs) and unmanned aerial drones -- both products of that shift -- made it possible to find and destroy targets, including mobile targets, more precisely and quickly during Operation Enduring Freedom, the response to the Sept. 11 attacks, and in Operation Iraqi Freedom than in any previous war. As many as 70 percent of all munitions dropped on Iraq were the precision-guided munitions developed and built during the Clinton administration. Funding for the JDAM program began in 1993, Clinton's first year in office. The advanced, GPS-guided Tomahawk cruise missile, which proved far more accurate and reliable than the earlier cruise missiles used in Desert Storm under the first President Bush, was funded in 1999. Unmanned aerial vehicles like the Predator and Global Hawk, which enabled U.S. forces to use combat aircraft in close air support in unprecedented ways, also originated in the Clinton years.

The Clinton administration also tried to maintain the quality of military personnel by increasing their pay, and it improved retirement and health benefits for military retirees. During his presidential campaign Bush charged that the Clinton administration had overburdened the U.S. military with too many deployments overseas, and he promised to pare those military obligations. "Resources are overstretched," he said. "Frustration is up, as families are separated and strained. Morale is down. Recruitment is more difficult. And many of our best people in the military are headed for civilian life."

Yet in the name of fighting terrorism, Bush is expanding the U.S. military presence overseas faster than Clinton ever dreamed of doing. U.S. forces are not only deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, but the Bush administration has sent advisers and support to the Philippines, Indonesia, Kuwait, Djibouti, Qatar, Yemen, Georgia, and Uzbekistan. The extra $70 billion a year that the administration has pumped into the Pentagon has bought more smart bombs and bigger paychecks, but it has not brought about a significantly larger force. Despite our expanded global war on terrorism, only about 27,000 troops have been added to our 1.4 million active-duty force.

Even with these troop additions, the military is more overstretched now than it was when Bush took office. During the first three months of 2003, the United States had more than twice as many troops on overseas missions at any given time as it did in 2000. This has made it harder to recruit and keep the soldiers, sailors, and airmen we already have. Bush did not create military overstretch, but he did campaign on fixing it. Instead, it has gotten worse.

Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld deserve enormous credit for the military victory over Iraq. Clinton deserves to share in that credit. Despite Republican cries of a "hollow military," the Clinton administration left behind a highly capable force that served the nation well when an unpredicted threat emerged. How do we know? Cheney said so.

Steven J. Nider is director of foreign and security studies at the Progressive Policy Institute.

http://www.ppionline.org/ndol/print.cfm?contentid=251793

[strandinthewind]

:rolleyes: Bush running out of the classroom on Sept. 11..."no no no, hit me, take me instead." :rolleyes: . . . .

No, he sat there petrified reading a book to children while thousands of Americans were dying. Personally, I think he and his cronies were caught so off guard they were scared shiitteless and did not know where to go and hide - so they stayed in the secured area. Or, perhaps W was thinking "I should have listened to every single expert on the planet that Al-Q and not SH was the real enemy."

[estranged4life]

Here are most of the quotes:

Flight 93 Eyewitness Accounts
Crash Witnesses Accounts:

"I heard like a boom and the engine sounded funny," she told the Daily News. "I heard two more booms - and then I did not hear anything."

What does Temyer think she heard? "I think the plane was shot down,"
http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily_news/2001/11/18/local/SHOT15C.htm


"It came in low over the trees and started wobbling," said Tim Thornsberg, a resident of Somerset County, who was working near an old strip mine when he saw the plane.

"Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees. It was just unreal to see something like that."
http://www.pittsburgh.com/partners/wpxi/news/flightheroes.html


"There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/100028703529429109.xml


the booms can be the engine dislodging from the wing due to extreme forces causing metal fatigue...The mushroom cloud would be the easily burning jet fuel (I wished I still owned my manuals from my days at Spartan School of Aeronatuics in Tulsa, OK....I found it funny how the govt. never mentioned how a few of the 911 hijackers attended Spartan when the school itself produced records verifying that claim....Spartan has a 'world reknown flight school') but of course it could be something else :nod:

But considering the impact zone of the plane, And how there were no human remains to be found I believe it started to desinegrate in the air and plowed the ground at such a force that you can clearly see the shape of the outline of the plane from the air over the crash site (You can clearly make out the wing tips and the tail section.) once your in that powerful a dive there's nothing to do except pray that you lived your life in a great manner because it will be over in a flash.

Will we ever know the truth...Not hardly since the complete cockpit recordings have yet to see the light of day since this is still an 'ongoing investigation' (Kinda like the ongoing investigation into the Murrah bombing...10 years later and the govt. is still clueless, Even though over 100+ witnesses were willing to testify they saw the Ryder truck that morning with 2 passengers, Including Tim McVeigh in the passenger set, not the driver's seat as the govt. likes people to believe.)

Guess I did inherit my Mother's love for reading about 'conspiracies'...

[gldstwmn]

Well, that black box was decoded by the govt. and I do not trust them one bit :laugh:


:nod: :nod: :nod:

[gldstwmn]

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale and BTW - SH is trying to buy yellow cake from Niger :rolleyes: Are you really that gullable :eek: I mean the govt. has been lying to us for decades :shrug:

Gulf of Tonkin, anyone?

[gldstwmn]

I'm more prone to believe your last theory there, that sounds logical. However there are several eyewitnesses who NEVER saw anything about the plane catching on fire before crashing.

Physics simply do not support that theory.

[strandinthewind]

. . . (Kinda like the ongoing investigation into the Murrah bombing...10 years later and the govt. is still clueless, Even though over 100+ witnesses were willing to testify they saw the Ryder truck that morning with 2 passengers, Including Tim McVeigh in the passenger set, not the driver's seat as the govt. likes people to believe.)

Guess I did inherit my Mother's love for reading about 'conspiracies'...

I think there is a huge cover up about the Murrah building and it was evident in the trial and the witnesses called.

Also - thanks for the info. on planes!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Gulf of Tonkin, anyone?

Oh who really knows what went on there said the perpetrator years later :rolleyes: :eek:

[gldstwmn]

Well, even if it was shot down (which I still am not to sure I believe)...I still believe that every single person (besides the terrorists) in that plane was a hero for what they tried to do...I just don't want that taken away from them.

Who's doing anything of the sort?

[estranged4life]

No, he sat there petrified reading a book to children while thousands of Americans were dying. Personally, I think he and his cronies were caught so off guard they were scared shiitteless and did not know where to go and hide - so they stayed in the secured area.

what was Bill Clinton doing when he was notified about the Murrah Building in downtown OKC? Did he mention what he first thought of the bombing in his book?

[strandinthewind]

what was Bill Clinton doing when he was notified about the Murrah Building in downtown OKC? Did he mention what he first thought of the bombing in his book?

This site has some minor info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing#Presidential_response

But, I do not remember what Billy C. was doing then.

[estranged4life]

I think there is a huge cover up about the Murrah building and it was evident in the trial and the witnesses called.


how the 911 mastermind Atta was in the same hotel in the Phillipines on the same day that one Terry Nichols was...Another coverup is the one with the 100+ credible eyewitnesses stating that the John Doe #2 in the Ryder truck was and is one Jose Padilla.

Various writers on the Murrah conspiracy have found proof that this did indeed happen (The hotel in the Phillipines, Gotta be interesting since Terry Nichols married a woman from the Phillipines)...Makes ya wonder dont it?

Why dont Michael "Ego Maniac" Moore do a doctumentary about OKC?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

LOL - you have got to stop getting your info from that woman - she lies :wavey:


http://www.ppionline.org/ndol/print.cfm?contentid=251793

She's dead...tenses please. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

I don't think anyone is trying to do that here. They are just noting that it is possible the govt. shot it down and if it did, why the cover up.

Interestingly, the plane that crashed a month or so later after leaving JFK was also under suspicious circumstances.

I have often wondered about that plane. We never really heard too much about it later on.

[strandinthewind]

She's dead...tenses please. :shrug:

I was talking about Ann Coulter - but if she is dead, well, DING DONG indeed :cool:

Also, how could you get "facts" from something you hypothesized Mrs. Olsen would have said :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I have often wondered about that plane. We never really heard too much about it later on.

I suppose it is possible for a tail section to come off like that due to pilot error. But, what are the odds?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I was talking about Ann Coulter - but if she is dead, well, DING DONG indeed :cool:

Also, how could you get "facts" from something you hypothesized Mrs. Olsen would have said :shrug:

I never mentioned Ann, so why were you talking about her. :shrug:

And actually Barbara DID have a lot to say about the Clinton Administration and his lack of military funding, saying that if there was a war...basically we would be up "**** creek", in her book that was published after her death (she was on her way actually to california for an appearnce on PI with Bill Maher...he left a seat open in her memory after the show started again). It was actually supposed to come out two days after Sept. 11 but of course it was put off after the tragedy and released later that year in her memory.

The Final Days: The Last, Desperate Abuses of Power by the Clinton White House (Barbara Olson) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261677/qid=1126639959/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6027060-2406556?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[gldstwmn]

how the 911 mastermind Atta was in the same hotel in the Phillipines on the same day that one Terry Nichols was

There's a lot of dirt out there on Atta. He was certainly not the religious fundamentalist he was portrayed to be. Wasn't he connected to Barry Seal at some point?

[gldstwmn]

I suppose it is possible for a tail section to come off like that due to pilot error. But, what are the odds?

A statistician I'm not. But I'd say they're astronomical.

[strandinthewind]

I never mentioned Ann, so why were you talking about her. :shrug:

And actually Barbara DID have a lot to say about the Clinton Administration and his lack of military funding, saying that if there was a war...basically we would be up "**** creek", in her book that was published after her death (she was on her way actually to california for an appearnce on PI with Bill Maher...he left a seat open in her memory after the show started again). It was actually supposed to come out two days after Sept. 11 but of course it was put off after the tragedy and released later that year in her memory.

The Final Days: The Last, Desperate Abuses of Power by the Clinton White House (Barbara Olson) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261677/qid=1126639959/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6027060-2406556?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

I mentioned Ann because I routinely point out that you know little true facts about anything because you seem to get your stuff from Coulter - who does not make truly facutal statements. I thought the connection was clear.

As for Olsen - who gives a shiitte if she did, she was wrong as that article I posted clearly demonstrated and as the campaigns in Iraq and Afgan clearly demonstrate. But, as always, if you have proof to the contrary, let's see it :wavey:

[estranged4life]

I suppose it is possible for a tail section to come off like that due to pilot error. But, what are the odds?

or better known as the rudder can, on rare occassions, suffer complete failure and create 'drag' on the flight path of the plane, So much drag can accumalate that it can tear the tail off the plane...I am surprised most people dont realize how fragile a plane can be in regards to affecting pressures.

Why it is theoritically possible, I have yet to see that happen myself.

[estranged4life]

He was certainly not the religious fundamentalist he was portrayed to be. Wasn't he connected to Barry Seal at some point?

but there has been reports Atta 'had his hands in many a cookie jar'.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I mentioned Ann because I routinely point out that you know little true facts about anything because you seem to get your stuff from Coulter - who does not make truly facutal statements. I thought the connection was clear.

As for Olsen - who gives a shiitte if she did, she was wrong as that article I posted clearly demonstrated and as the campaigns in Iraq and Afgan clearly demonstrate. But, as always, if you have proof to the contrary, let's see it :wavey:

First of all..."Dereliction of Duty" by Lt Col Buzz Patterson. A "must read".

Then let's look at...

BILL CLINTON's Service Record before becoming Commander in Chief:

Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.

Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.

Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969.

Bill Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col. E. Holmes. Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment.

Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) 'registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction'.

Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1,1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction is INELIGIBLE!

Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.

Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice.

Bill Clinton receives pardon on January 21, 1977, from Carter. Bill Clinton FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President.

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton.

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S. sailors, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

Maybe if Clinton had kept those promises, an estimated 3,000 people in New York and Washington,D.C. that are now dead, would be alive today.

AN INTERESTING QUESTION: This question was raised on a Philly radio call-in show. Without casting stones, it is a legitimate question. There are two men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap software and gives billions of dollars to charity.

The other sponsors terrorism.

That being the case, why was it that the Clinton Administration spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the eight years in office, than Osama bin Laden?

THINK ABOUT IT!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4463

New Book Exposes administration's Intelligence Failure
Clinton's Real Legacy

by Eduardo Llull
Posted Jul 13, 2004

Bill Clinton's legacy is destined to become a terrible litany:


In 1993, terrorists detonated a bomb in the parking garage of the World Trade Center killing six Americans and injuring 1,042. Vital information could have been gathered to thwart future attacks. But President Clinton did nothing.


In 1996, terrorists blew up a truck outside the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia killing 19 U.S. servicemen. Clinton did nothing.


In 2000, terrorists attacked the U.S.S. Cole killing 17 Navy seamen. Clinton, amazingly, opted to play it safe while the Bin Ladens of the world continued devising their murderous schemes.


In 1998, terrorists bombed U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224. Clinton responded by bombing Sudan and Afghanistan, blowing up an aspirin factory in the former and a few Pakistani intelligence officers who were equipping Kashmiri guerillas in the latter.

Clinton claimed victory. So did Bin Laden. It wasn't the first or the last time Clinton misled the American people.

Americans want to know why we were caught sleeping on September 11, and rightfully so. But government commissions and our media can't seem to get beyond the partisan maneuvering that would somehow lay blame equally on Bush and Clinton, even though one had eight years to do something about terrorism and the other eight months. And the facts are being obscured for a reason.

Thankfully, David Bossie has produced a work of research that will undoubtedly serve as an indictment of Clinton for years to come. In Intelligence Failure: How Clinton's National Security Policy Set The Stage For 9/11 (WND Books, 2004, $24.99, 272 pp.), Bossie documents the eight years Clinton spent slashing our military and intelligence budgets, and worrying more about protecting his name from scandals than he did protecting us from terror attacks. Bossie shows that this wasn't just a miscalculation by Clinton in a confusing post-Cold War world. He knew that the threat of terror was real but had other priorities.

In 1994, in the wake of the World Trade Center bombing, the Pentagon conducted a study termed "Terror 2000," which warned of the possibility that hijackers would use an airliner as a missile against the Pentagon and possibly the World Trade Center. Clinton refused to let the public hear of it and when distributed to Congress or government agencies, details like the possible use of planes as missiles were omitted. Clinton had a different agenda. That agenda included promoting diversity in the military, FBI and CIA while drastically cutting back the budget for each.

In other words, he was playing politics with our safety.

Clinton's interminable political correctness demoralized the ranks of soldiers, counterterrorism officers and intelligence agents charged with fighting a deadly ring of terror, which had dire consequences. While its budget was cut and its director James Woolsey ostracized, two outside companies were hired to assist in ensuring and celebrating diversity in the CIA. CIA operatives were forced to take sensitivity training and welcome homosexual operatives under The Agency Network of Gay and Lesbian Employees.

The House and Senate intelligence committees reported that the FBI in Phoenix never acted on a memo that mentioned foreigners taking flying lessons at American schools. FBI agent Oliver "Buck" Revell told Bossie: "The agents . . . didn't open a case because of political correctness. They had explicit orders not to racially profile, and if they had opened a case because a bunch of 'Arab students' were taking flying lessons, they would have been shut down immediately and their careers would have been hurt." In fact, agents "didn't have a good atmosphere to work on terrorism cases. The feeling was that no risk was good."

The Clinton Administration shifted antiterrorist responsibilities to the FBI and then refused to secure the necessary funds for the upgrades in equipment and staff the agency desperately needed. Louis Freeh was left without support for the FBI Counterterrorism Division he took the initiative to create.

As someone who was in Manhattan when the Twin Towers went down, watching Rudy Giuliani recently in front of the 9/11 commission seemed strange, if not suspicious. Are these people really trying to get to the bottom of what went wrong? If they are, they ought to pick up a copy of Bossie's book. The evidence all points to one man.

Bill Clinton spent his presidency concerned about leaving a legacy. Unfortunately, he succeeded.
Mr. Llull is a reporter for the Institutional Investor newsletter in New York City.

[strandinthewind]

^^^^^^

You do realize that is filled with lies because Clinton caught and prosecuted many terrorits and in fact stopped an attack planned for the millenium. Conversly, W blatantly ignored warnings from all levels including the head of counter terrorism that Al-Q was planning to attack the US; W instead concentrated solely on Iraq. Moreover, we were talking about W and your incorrect allegation that Clinton left the military in shambles.

I think it has come to this, unless you start citing things based in reality, I am not longer playing this ridiculous game of telling you to go do your homework because you insist on rhetoric instead of facts, which is sad because you seem bright enough to see the difference.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Clinton's interminable political correctness demoralized the ranks of soldiers, counterterrorism officers and intelligence agents charged with fighting a deadly ring of terror, which had dire consequences. While its budget was cut and its director James Woolsey ostracized, two outside companies were hired to assist in ensuring and celebrating diversity in the CIA. CIA operatives were forced to take sensitivity training and welcome homosexual operatives under The Agency Network of Gay and Lesbian Employees . . . .

Are you seriously citing to an article that has this homophobic cr*p in it. I just think it is hystertical that when many have no point to make, they bring up by innuendo that someone is nice to fags so they must be anti-American. Don't you just find it strange that American soldiers serve daily side by side with Australian and English troops who are allowed to be openly gay. Boy, that sure has hurt our troops hasn't it. But, I suppose it is okay to put up with the foreign fags for now.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

"How 9/11 Happened" - Ann Coulter

We don't need a "commission" to find out how 9/11 happened. The truth is in the time line.

President Carter, Democrat

In 1979, President Jimmy Carter allowed the shah of Iran to be deposed by a mob of Islamic fanatics. A few months later, Muslims stormed the U.S. Embassy in Iran and took American Embassy staff hostage.
Carter retaliated by canceling Iranian visas. He eventually ordered a disastrous and humiliating rescue attempt, crashing helicopters in the desert.

President Reagan, Republican

The day of Reagan's inauguration, the hostages were released.

In 1982, the U.S. Embassy in Beirut was bombed by Muslim extremists.
President Reagan sent U.S. Marines to Beirut

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut were blown up by Muslim extremists.

Regan said the United States would not surrender, but Democrats in Congress threw a hissy fit, drafting a resolution demanding that our troops be withdrawn. All seven Democratic presidential candidates called for our troops to be withdrawn. Reagan caved in to Democrat caterwauling in an election year and withdrew our troops -- bombing Syrian-controlled areas on the way out. Democrats complained about that, too.

In 1985, an Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro, was seized and a sixty-nine-year-old American was shot and thrown overboard by Muslim extremists.

Reagan ordered a heart-stopping mission to capture the hijackers after the "allies" promise them safe passage. The daring plan to intercept the hijackers' flight was conceived by Oliver North -- later crucified by Democrats over Iran-Contra -- and executed by Admiral Frank Kelso, later savaged by Representative Patricia Schroeder for saying hello to his boys at Tailhook. Kelso's boys captured the hijackers and turned them over to the Italians, who then released them to safe harbor in Iraq.

On April 5, 1986, a West Berlin discotheque frequented by U.S. servicemen was bombed by Muslim extremists from the Libyan Embassy in East Berlin, killing an American.

Ten days later, Reagan bombed Libya, despite our dear ally France refusing the use of their airspace. Americans bombed Qaddafi's residence, killing his daughter, and dropped a bomb on the French Embassy "by mistake."

Reagan also stoked a long, bloody war between heinous regimes in Iran and Iraq. All this was while winning a final victory over Soviet totalitarianism.

President Bush I, Moderate Republican

In December 1988, a passenger jet, Pan Am Flight 103, was bombed over Lockerbie, Scotland, by Muslim extremists.

President-elect George Bush claimed he would continue Reagan's policy of retaliating against terrorism, but did not. Without Reagan to gin her up, even Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher went wobbly, saying there would be no revenge for the bombing.

In 1990, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.

In early 1991, Bush went to war with Iraq the way liberals like -- with approval from the UN and "the allies." Still, a majority of Democrats opposed the war. Democrats demanded that our troops stop at Baghdad, but then after 9/11, absudly complained that Bush didn't "finish off the job" with Saddam.

President Bill Clinton, Democrat

In February 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed by Muslim fanatics, killing five people and injuring hundreds.

Clinton did nothing.

In October 1993, eighteen American troops were killed in a savage firefight in Somalia. The corpse of one American was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu as the Somalian hordes cheered.

Clinton responded by ordering our troops home. Osama bin Laden later told ABC News, "The youth...realized more than before that the American soldier was a paper tiger and after a few blows ran in defeat."

In November 1995, five Americans were killed and thirty wounded by a car bomb in Saudi Arabia set by Muslim extermists.

Clinton did nothing.

In June 1996, a U.S. Air Force housing complex in Saudi Arabia was bombed by Muslim extremists.

Clinton did nothing.

Months later, Saddam attacked the Kurdish-controlled city of Erbil. Clinton lobbed some bombs into Iraq, hundreds of miles from Saddam's forces.

In November 1997, Iraq refused to allow UN weapons inspectors to do their jobs and threatened to shoot down a U.S. U-2 spy plane.

Clinton did nothing.

In February 1998, Clinton threatened to bomb Iraq, but called it off when the United Nations said no.

On August 7, 1998, U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim extremists.

Clinton did nothing.

On August 20, Monica Lewinsky appeared for the second time to testify before the grand jury.

Clinton responded by bombing Afghanistan and Sudan, severly damaging a camel and an aspirin factory.

On December 16, the House of Representatives prepared to impeach Clinton the next day.

Clinton retaliated by ordering major air strikes against Iraq, described by the New York Times as "by far the largest military action in Iraq since the end of the Gulf War in 1991."

The only time Clinton decided to go to war with anyone in the vicinity of Muslim fanatics was in 1999 -- when Clinton attacked Serbians who were fighting Muslim fanatics.

In October 2000, our warship the USS Cole was attacked by Muslim extremists.

Clinton did nothing.

President George Bush, Republican

Bush came into office telling his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, he was "tired of swatting flied" -- he wanted to eliminate al Qaeda.

On September 11, 2001, after Bush had been in office for seven months, three thousand Americans were murdered in a savage terrorist attack on U.S. soil by Muslim extremists.

Since then, Bush has won wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, captured Saddam Hussein, probably killed and certainly immobilized Osama bin Laden, destroyed al Qaeda's base, and begun to create the only functioning democracy in the Middle East other than Israel. Democrats opposed it all -- except their phony support on the war with Afghanistan, which they immediately complained about and said would be a Vietnam quagmire. Now they claim to be outraged that in months before 9/11, Bush did not do everything Democrats opposed doing after 9/11.

What a surprise.

[strandinthewind]

^^^^^

once again, mostly lies and half truthes - go do your homework :wavey: :wavey:

For example, we "won" the war in Iraq. Good, let's bring the troops home now. Also, Clinton caught and prosecuted terrorists, yet Ann leaves that fact out - how unsurprising :rolleyes:

Do you listen to yourself when you quote this drivel?

and BTW - all this BS anti-Clinton spin is nice, but you have yet to retort my pointing out your misstating that Clinton left the military in shambles :wavey:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

^^^^^

once again, mostly lies and half truthes - go do your homework :wavey: :wavey:

For example, we "won" the war in Iraq. Good, let's bring the troops home now.

Do you listen to yourself when you quote this drivel?

and BTW - all this spin is nice, but you have yet to retort my pointing oput your misstating that Clinton left the military in shambles :wavey:

refute it. keep hearing about all these "lies" ms. coulter and other right-wingers tell.

[strandinthewind]

refute it. keep hearing about all these "lies" ms. coulter and other right-wingers tell.

Now now - first things first -

I am still waiting for you to explain why W was able to have such huge victories with the Clinton military that you and he alleged were so bad.

Also, I refuted some of it already in that Clinton caught and prosecuted terrorists and stopped attacks on this spoil. Moreover, we have not won the war in Iraq by a long shot.

Finally, if you respond with BS right wing rhetoric, I will not respond. I am interested in facts only, which does not include anything Coulter says. I cannot understand why someone as intelligent as you cannot see through that.

[gldstwmn]

refute it. keep hearing about all these "lies" ms. coulter and other right-wingers tell.

He already did.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Now now - first things first -

I am still waiting for you to explain why W was able to have such huge victories with the Clinton military that you and he alleged were so bad.

Also, I refuted some of it already in that Clinton caught and prosecuted terrorists and stopped attacks on this spoil. Moreover, we have not won the war in Iraq by a long shot.

Ms. Coulter says nothing about winning the war. She states that we have won "wars", as in battles...

Let's hear about all these lies...point them out...prove otherwise...come on.

[strandinthewind]

He already did.

Don't you love Coulter spins it to Clinton did nothing and W did everything. In truth Clinton caught and prosecuted terrorists in the real legal system and he prevented attacks, though some sadly did occur. Conversly, W has prevented no attacks we know of, failed to capture the person resp. for 9/11, only momentarily weakend Al-Q in Afgan, and mistakenly if not fradulently invaded another country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and has created a breeding ground for terrorists.

Thems the facts!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Don't you love Coulter spins it to Clinton did nothing and W did everything. In truth Clinton caught and prosecuted terrorists in the real legal system and he prevented attacks, though some sadly did occur. Conversly, W has prevented no attacks we know of, failed to capture the person resp. for 9/11, only momentarily weakend Al-Q in Afgan, and mistakenly if not fradulently invaded another country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and has created a breeding ground for terrorists.

Thems the facts!

You said coulter "lies", I'm waiting for you to point out where she lied in the above exceprt from "HTTTAL(IFM)".

[strandinthewind]

Ms. Coulter says nothing about winning the war. She states that we have won "wars", as in battles...

Let's hear about all these lies...point them out...prove otherwise...come on.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

did you really just assert that drivel :eek:

She was saying we won wars in Iraq and Afganistan - which means the whole thing not just a battle. But, for your edification:

Main Entry: 1war
Pronunciation: 'wor
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive

Etymology: Middle English werre, from Old North French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse

1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : STATE OF WAR b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war

2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> c : VARIANCE, ODDS 3

- war·less /-l&s/ adjective

www.merriamwebster.com
_____________________________________________________

hmmmmmmmm - sounds like they are not just talking about a battle there. Again, no spin - just facts!

[strandinthewind]

You said coulter "lies", I'm waiting for you to point out where she lied in the above exceprt from "HTTTAL(IFM)".

First things first Mr. "I Have No Argument Against Clinton's Military - So Let's Spin It" :laugh:

BTW - its okay to admit you are wrong - I frequently am, though never with you because you argue in a non-factual manner and facts always win.

Also, I pointed on some of her errors already. That should be enough.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

http://www.house.gov/hunter/01DefenseBudget.htm

http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/Archive/U.19960603.Comparison_Of_The_/U.19960603.Comparison_Of_The_.htm

and the best one...

http://www.defenselink.mil/execsec/adr95/budget_5.html

[ontheEdgeof17]

Ann Coulter is so 2004. Has-been....rather, never-been.


Let's move on to topics that actually deserve bandwith.

[strandinthewind]

http://www.house.gov/hunter/01DefenseBudget.htm

http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/Archive/U.19960603.Comparison_Of_The_/U.19960603.Comparison_Of_The_.htm

and the best one...

http://www.defenselink.mil/execsec/adr95/budget_5.html

Again and for the last time, how was Bush able to fight with the same horrid military Clinton had. That is the question.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

First things first Mr. "I Have No Argument Against Clinton's Military - So Let's Spin It" :laugh:

BTW - its okay to admit you are wrong - I frequently am, though never with you because you argue in a non-factual manner and facts always win.

Also, I pointed on some of her errors already. That should be enough.

Ok I posted three links which disprove everything about Bill "Rock Star" Clinton. Now back to you pointing out ALL of these so called "lies" Ms. Coulter tells.

BTW...I do admit when I'm wrong but I'm not in this case...sorry. And I guess you didn't think I had the actual "smarts" to defend my position, I think a lot of you guys around here count on that.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Again and for the last time, how was Bush able to fight with the same horrid military Clinton had. That is the question.

Did you even read all of those? seriously?

And if I'm not mistaken, I didn't think that was the actual question...you just asked me to prove that Clinton left the military in shambles... :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Ann Coulter is so 2004. Has-been....rather, never-been.


Let's move on to topics that actually deserve bandwith.

Oh but I am having sooooo much fun watching poor Brown Eyes dig himself in deeper with half truths, homophobia, and BS spin - though shooting fish in a barrel can get boring I suppose.

[dissention]

Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've ever had.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ann Coulter is so 2004. Has-been....rather, never-been.


Let's move on to topics that actually deserve bandwith.

Actually Ann Coulter is a "1998 bestseller, 2002 bestseller, 2003 bestseller, 2004 bestseller...weekly columnist read by thousands, conservative commentator" always will-be! :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Ok I posted three links which disprove everything about Bill "Rock Star" Clinton. Now back to you pointing out ALL of these so called "lies" Ms. Coulter tells.

BTW...I do admit when I'm wrong but I'm not in this case...sorry. And I guess you didn't think I had the actual "smarts" to defend my position, I think a lot of you guys around here count on that.

You did not answer the question how was Bush able to fight with the same horrid military Clinton had. That is the question. Answer that or stop playing.

BTW - If you want to bad mouth Clinton, I'll join you as I did not really care for him, though he did stop an attack on American soil and he did catch and prosecute terrorists, which is more than W can say - though W held and still holds many alleged terrorists quasi - illegally. I mean at least Clinton had the nads to prosecute them in open court.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've ever had.

nah. he was a moderate democrat before he took office...then he just kept moving to the left.

[strandinthewind]

Actually Ann Coulter is a "1998 bestseller, 2002 bestseller, 2003 bestseller, 2004 bestseller...weekly columnist read by thousands, conservative commentator" always will-be! :nod:

Lemmings to the cliff :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've ever had.

LOL - so true!!!!!!!! Well, there was Nixon :eek: - who I actually think was okay despite being a crook. At least he stopped the Vietnam War and opened relations with China.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

You did not answer the question how was Bush able to fight with the same horrid military Clinton had. That is the question. Answer that or stop playing.

BTW - If you want to bad mouth Clinton, I'll join you as I did not really care for him, though he did stop an attack on American soil and he did catch and prosecute terrorists, which is more than W can say - though W held and still holds many alleged terrorists quasi - illegally. I mean at least Clinton had the nads to prosecute them in open court.

We fight when we have to regardless of our level of preparedness because we are Americans. Decimating the military in the language used in those links I gave you shows our military was wholly unprepared for the looming War on Terror. Thanks to Bill Clinton and the Democrats. Virtually all of military command acknowledges this privately if not publically.

[strandinthewind]

We fight when we have to regardless of our level of preparedness because we are Americans. Decimating the military in the language used in those links I gave you shows our military was wholly unprepared for the looming War on Terror. Thanks to Bill Clinton and the Democrats. Virtually all of military command acknowledges this privately if not publically.

:laugh: Are you actually listening to yourself. Again, W and crew fought successful campaigns with this same military. Thus, spin it all you want, it was obviously good enough for those two rather large campaigns so Clinton could not have been that bad.

BTW - it was not our military that was unprepared, it was W. You do realize W focused on Iraq, who never attacked the continental US and he ignored and I mean totally ignored any advice from the top down about Al-Q and its intent to attack us as it had like four times in the past. To me, that is an idiot. Then, does W learn from that - nope - he goes right back to Iraq. And you support this tripe.

[gldstwmn]

though shooting fish in a barrel can get boring I suppose.

As Curtis alluded to earlier, it already has.

[gldstwmn]

LOL - so true!!!!!!!! Well, there was Nixon :eek: - who I actually think was okay despite being a crook. At least he stopped the Vietnam War and opened relations with China.

After he secretly bombed Cambodia.

[dissention]

nah. he was a moderate democrat before he took office...then he just kept moving to the left.

:laugh:

It's obvious you don't know **** about **** if you can say that with a straight face. He was as left as my right hand.

[estranged4life]

Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we've ever had.

but the whole Oklahoma Democratic party are the best Republicans I know of :shrug:

Btw, Did Clinton's adminst. take credit for Tim McVeigh's arrest and prosecution? If the Murrah building would have been bombed one year later McVeigh would have never been caught the way he was (Which was a fluke...Thank God someone in the courthouse in Perry had one helluva messy divorce case goin' which delayed his release until the local PD in Perry talked to the FBI about one Mr.McVeigh.)

Gotta remember that Oklahoma passed into law making concealed weapons legal in 1996, McVeigh was arrested only on that charge...Had he been pulled over by OHP trooper Hanger in 1996 he could have just signed for the traffic tickets, been booked and finally sent on his way in a hours time.

Speaking of the OHP...Guess who they pulled over for a speeding ticket not far from where I live? One Mr.Atta in 2001 (I am sure it was early in 2001). Kinda scary since there are plenty of places in my area where you can be trained to fly a crop-duster and even rent one.

[GypsySorcerer]

nah. he was a moderate democrat before he took office...then he just kept moving to the left.
:shocked: :lol:

You cannot be serious.

[dissention]

:shocked: :lol:

You cannot be serious.

I fear that he is. :lol:

[desertangel]

After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S. sailors, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

Maybe if Clinton had kept those promises, an estimated 3,000 people in New York and Washington,D.C. that are now dead, would be alive today.

That is a question I asked myself and others many times during the Clinton Administration just prior to 9/11. Why wasn't he doing anything about the attacks that were taking place overseas? When the Cole happened (and I almost NEVER do this) I very purposely watched the news just to see if sanctions would be brought or SOMETHING, anything. When I worked in the defense industry, of course, their school of thought is if you turn your cheek too many times, the bully is gonna catch you off guard and clock you so good you'll be lucky to pick yourself up off the ground. This is the first thing that came to my mind when the planes started crashing in 2001. I've got a real pacifistic streak, but I don't condone bullies either. And I do believe the US has played the bully on more than one occassion in foreign affairs. I've never thought it was right for our gov't to "shove" it's beliefs down other people's throats and create wars over it, but not to the extent that atrocities against humanity are allowed to go unchecked. The last thing this Big Blue Planet needs is another Hitler, on any scale.

On the topic of conspiracy theories and cover ups. Wonder how many planes that have crashed and fallen out of the sky were really a result of terrorists. This has been going on for a very long time. I recall there being a LOT of press on it when I was in high school 1974-77 when the hijackings were going on. Then you didn't hear so much about it. Then after awhile planes started blowing up, running off runways and falling out of the air. And the NTSB always had some excuse. What about Lockerbee? And how about our space shuttles? Heck, don't even get me started on the topic of anti-depressant medications. Gad... Anyway... we'll never know, we're just tax paying peons. Modern day equivalent to slaves, knaves and surfs.

And on that cheery note...

Laura

[desertangel]

:laugh: He was as left as my right hand.

I read where Hill and Bill were/are/have been very chummy with the socialist party dating back to their college days. Politics is not my bag, but it sure seems like there's a lot of mud slinging from both sides. Frankly, after reading Hitler's book, I can't help but NOT believe much of anything except my own gut feelings. I would shoot myself in the head before I would become a politician. {insert barfing smiley here}


Laura

[desertangel]

Btw, Did Clinton's adminst. take credit for Tim McVeigh's arrest and prosecution? If the Murrah building would have been bombed one year later McVeigh would have never been caught the way he was (Which was a fluke...Thank God someone in the courthouse in Perry had one helluva messy divorce case goin' which delayed his release until the local PD in Perry talked to the FBI about one Mr.McVeigh.)

Speaking of the OHP...Guess who they pulled over for a speeding ticket not far from where I live? One Mr.Atta in 2001 (I am sure it was early in 2001). Kinda scary since there are plenty of places in my area where you can be trained to fly a crop-duster and even rent one.

How do we really know it was McVeigh who did OK? Maybe he was a patsy like Oswald. ;)

How nervous were we after 9/11 whenever we saw carloads or vanloads of middle eastern people driving around? Holy heck, I sure was. I'll never forget in early Sept of 01 traveling by car down to Calif. on I-5, stopped at a rest area and a whole bunch of them piled out of a van. They didn't look or act like tourists at all. I got this bad feeling in my stomach. Several months later, saw another carload driving around in town. They looked nervous, heads darting around in every direction. Couple years later, comes on the news that there are suspected terror cells in Portland.

Sunday, Monday.. Happy Days, Tuesday, Wednesday... Happy Days. :D

Laura