They Really Dropped the Ball..

[Janet]

Thousands are officially dead from Hurricane Katrina. Not one person should have died. They knew it was coming and that it was strong. I saw the warnings on the weather channel a day before it was near the coast.

They should have gotten out the poor without cars. They should have gotten everyone out.

With all the technology today, no one should have died. This could have been avoided right? Why did so many have to die for no reason???

[michelle2677]

exactly....

Our nation is built around helping people who can't help themselves...oh but wait...that's just when it comes to other countries. Gawd forbid we help our own people.. :rolleyes: I'm angry right now, and it's probably just going to progressively get worse :mad:

[diamondsnake]

Well I think it was impossible to avoid any deaths whatsoever, but perhaps there was a way to avoid so many fatalities. Weren't these people told to leave though? Some of them just plain didn't listen. I think a lot of people just didn't realize how catastrophic this storm would be.

[gldstwmn]

With all the technology today, no one should have died. This could have been avoided right? Why did so many have to die for no reason???

Well, that's the $64,000 question, now isn't it?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Thousands are officially dead from Hurricane Katrina. Not one person should have died. They knew it was coming and that it was strong. I saw the warnings on the weather channel a day before it was near the coast.

They should have gotten out the poor without cars. They should have gotten everyone out.

With all the technology today, no one should have died. This could have been avoided right? Why did so many have to die for no reason???

I understand the frustration, and I don't have any clue what to say? Why does anyone have to die from natural disasters...including earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes (which I live in NC where devastating ones have hit before, of course nothing like Katrina), volcanic eruptions, etc...

May God Bless their Souls!

[dissention]

Weren't these people told to leave though? Some of them just plain didn't listen.

These people are dirt poor. How would they have gotten out? Where would they have gone? How would they be able to leave their homes and survive without any money?

[gldstwmn]

These people are dirt poor. How would they have gotten out? Where would they have gone? How would they be able to leave their homes and survive without any money?

I wanted to repsond to this but I am getting tired of having to type the same thing over and over. Thanks diss. :)

[michelle2677]

Well I think it was impossible to avoid any deaths whatsoever, but perhaps there was a way to avoid so many fatalities. Weren't these people told to leave though? Some of them just plain didn't listen. I think a lot of people just didn't realize how catastrophic this storm would be.


I agree..many of them didn't leave because they had lived thru camille and just thought the media was just giving it a lot of hype. But then there are those that really couldnt' get out. But technically..if I saw that big ass storm coming my way..I would have started hoofing it..hahah..

but I guess by the time theyrealized it...it was really too late....(to walk, or whatever...)

[dissention]

I wanted to repsond to this but I am getting tired of having to type the same thing over and over. Thanks diss. :)

No problem. I cannot for the life of me understand why people are asking "Why didn't they leave?" I wanted to throttle Larry King last night for asking that over and over and over and over. And asking the children of people lost in New Orleans, no less.

[diamondsnake]

These people are dirt poor. How would they have gotten out? Where would they have gone? How would they be able to leave their homes and survive without any money?
True......

[michelle2677]

not all of the people who stayed are dirt poor tho. I mean, yes..those that really couldn't get out, those are the ones I feel for.
but there ARE many stories of ppl that just didn't leave. There was a guy on the radio the day before that didn't want to leave because he and his wife had just put so much money into their new business, they didn't want to leave it :confused: (or maybe it was CNN) THOSE are the people I think of when I hear.."why didn't they get out"

[diamondsnake]

not all of the people who stayed are dirt poor tho. I mean, yes..those that really couldn't get out, those are the ones I feel for.
but there ARE many stories of ppl that just didn't leave. There was a guy on the radio the day before that didn't want to leave because he and his wife had just put so much money into their new business, they didn't want to leave it :confused: (or maybe it was CNN) THOSE are the people I think of when I hear.."why didn't they get out"
Yeah, That's what I meant when I said that. I didn't mean to direspect the homeless.

[gldstwmn]

Yeah, That's what I meant when I said that. I didn't mean to direspect the homeless.Although, I don't feel compassion for people that are truely capable of getting jobs but are just lazy.

Most homeless people aren't lazy, they're mentally ill. :( Would you live in a cardboard box if you were in your right mind?

[dissention]

Yeah, That's what I meant when I said that. I didn't mean to direspect the homeless. Although, I don't feel compassion for people that are truely capable of getting jobs but are just lazy.

Who is talking about the homeless? Poor does not necessarily equate being homeless. And since when can anyone just waltz into a business and get a job? Since when is being homeless and unemployed a sign of laziness? Does anyone out there really believe that people prefer to live on the streets in refrigerator boxes because they're too lazy to want to work? Crikey. And why wouldn't feel you compassion for a homeless man or woman that is "too lazy to work" and is now injured and suffering from this disaster? These are human beings, Christopher.

[michelle2677]

:confused: :confused: :confused: did I miss something?? Im genuinely asking..not being sh*tty or anything..
did someone say something about them being lazy???

sorry..on edit...it appears I DID miss something...looks like that post had been edited after I read it :) sorry..

[gldstwmn]

:confused: :confused: :confused: did I miss something?? Im genuinely asking..not being sh*tty or anything..
did someone say something about them being lazy???

Yeah. Diss quoted it in his post right above you.

[diamondsnake]

Okay I was not talking about the New Orleans victims. I just meant homeless people in general. I tried to edit my statement because I know that came out wrong. Sorry...

[Brwn_eyes0511]

[QUOTE=dissention]And since when can anyone just waltz into a business and get a job?QUOTE]

Oh PLEASE dissention...let's not start this argument...because we could go ON and ON! lol...

The majority of people out there have had or could have the opportunity to have a job somewhere...last time I checked, Wal-Mart or McDonalds were looking for help, and they aren't that picky either! Hey it may not be much, but it is a job!

Now I'm not going to be heartless and say I don't give to the poor or feel for them...because I do! But I have never given someone begging on the side of the road a single dime of my money! Because, sadly enough I don't trust them enough to know what they will spend it on! I have gotten them food before and brought it back to them and would be glad to do that any day!

I have just personally seen so many scam artists out there on the side of the road begging...and then once they have their money they go back to their BMW parked at a local parking lot and drive off! :mad: It's folks like that that really give the actual homeless and poor and bad name!

[gldstwmn]

Okay I was not talking about the New Orleans victims. I just meant homeless people in general. I tried to edit my statement because I know that came out wrong. Sorry...

And I was talking about homeless people in general.

[diamondsnake]

And I was talking about homeless people in general.
And I don't feel compassion for the guy on the side of the road with a sign that says "Need Beer".

[michelle2677]

there really are different types of homeless people. Please dont' jump me because I'm not claiming to be some expert. I'm from a very small town of 35,000. so we really don't have a lot of homeless ppl, and the ones we do, are very capable of going to shelters, blah blah blah. But I think some people's perception of homeless people is that "lazy, blah blah blah" because most of the people in MY hometown at least ARE very capable of getting jobs. (meaning...there are jobs around...but they may not if they are mental ill and all that) but The type of homeless people we have in Big Henderson Kentucky are the ones' spitting out 7-8 children just to get more money. Now I am not cracking on ppl on welfare by any stretch, BUT, my husband manages the only public pool in my hometown and I've seen it, day in and day out. They come to the pool and sit there enjoying the sun while my ass is out working. NOW...to be on topic.....I realize that New Orleans is COMPLETELY different. It IS a poverty stricken area, and people really are unable to get jobs and they desperately need help. Maybe the only GOOD that will come of this is they will be relocated and will receive help and maybe will have a fresh start and new beginning. But it is easy for ppl from small towns to think they are all lazy etc because those are the kind we have around here..... o.k...I've definately rambled way too much..but that was just my 25 cents....let the firing begin....

[gldstwmn]

And I don't feel compassion for the guy on the side of the road with a sign that says "Need Beer".

It's called empathy.

[gldstwmn]

Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi live on CNN now saying FEMA is blocking trucks with ice and water from coming in to his city.

[dissention]

Oh PLEASE dissention...let's not start this argument...because we could go ON and ON! lol...

:rolleyes:

The majority of people out there have had or could have the opportunity to have a job somewhere...last time I checked, Wal-Mart or McDonalds were looking for help, and they aren't that picky either! Hey it may not be much, but it is a job!

Bull****.

Now I'm not going to be heartless and say I don't give to the poor or feel for them...because I do! But I have never given someone begging on the side of the road a single dime of my money! Because, sadly enough I don't trust them enough to know what they will spend it on! I have gotten them food before and brought it back to them and would be glad to do that any day!

Who cares what they spend it on? Those people who beg on the sides of roads have lost their pride and their dignity, they deserve as much compassion and kindness as people are willing to give. Unfortunately, that isn't much nowadays because a lot of people are selfish pricks who don't care about their fellow men and women. It's a crying shame. Never have I not given money to someone who has been reduced to begging for it on the sides of roads and I never will refuse any to them. I'm not going to deprive them of money that I'm just going to spend on worthless crap because they might go and spend it on a bottle of booze. You'd be drinking too if you were in that situation. If you truly do give them food, that's fantastic.

I have just personally seen so many scam artists out there on the side of the road begging...and then once they have their money they go back to their BMW parked at a local parking lot and drive off! :mad: It's folks like that that really give the actual homeless and poor and bad name!

I have never seen that in my life.

[dissention]

It's called empathy.

Empathy has gone the way of the dinosaurs, Chris.

[GypsySorcerer]

The majority of people out there have had or could have the opportunity to have a job somewhere...last time I checked, Wal-Mart or McDonalds were looking for help, and they aren't that picky either! Hey it may not be much, but it is a job!
Low-paying jobs like the one you mentioned aren't enough to survive on. Have you checked the cost of rent lately? Housing is extremely unaffordable, especially in urban areas. Most of their paychecks go to rent, which leaves little money to live on. Additionally, those jobs rarely provide their employees with health insurance.

Now I'm not going to be heartless and say I don't give to the poor or feel for them...because I do! But I have never given someone begging on the side of the road a single dime of my money! Because, sadly enough I don't trust them enough to know what they will spend it on! I have gotten them food before and brought it back to them and would be glad to do that any day!
What they spend it on is between them and their conscience. The conservative mantra of "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't work. I used to buy into that, but if you try do some reading and research, you'll see how flawed the argument is. And by reading, I do not mean Ann Coulter.

[diamondsnake]

But why should you give your hard earned money to someone that was just as capable of going out and earning a living?

It is one thing if a person is mentally ill. I truely feel sorry for those people.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

:rolleyes:



Bull****.

That's it...that's all you have to say...ok?!?



Who cares what they spend it on? Those people who beg on the sides of roads have lost their pride and their dignity, they deserve as much compassion and kindness as people are willing to give. Unfortunately, that isn't much nowadays because a lot of people are selfish pricks who don't care about their fellow men and women. It's a crying shame. Never have I not given money to someone who has been reduced to begging for it on the sides of roads and I never will refuse any to them. I'm not going to deprive them of money that I'm just going to spend on worthless crap because they might go and spend it on a bottle of booze. You'd be drinking too if you were in that situation. If you truly do give them food, that's fantastic.

Yes I have given them food...many times...which I am more than happy to do! I think it is down right wrong for them to spend their money on booze when, they could spend it on better things that might actually HELP them!



I have never seen that in my life.

Oh boy! Come down here and your eyes will be opened...I have seen it personally twice in my life...but others in my family and friends that I know have seen these kinds of scams happen ALL THE TIME!

[Janet]

These people are dirt poor. How would they have gotten out? Where would they have gone? How would they be able to leave their homes and survive without any money?

I mean these buses could have come and gotten these people out. They could have packed a bag if they had one, gotten their kids and gotten OUT instead of died. They had a couple or more days ( meaning officials, not the "poor" people) and they could have prepared to get these people out. Do they they think they even knew? No, but WE did...it's like they were left there to die almost.

That's what I meant. I know the average person in these lower income housing wouldn't just leave their homes. But if they had been forced to...taken to places before the storm? Was that even possible?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

But why should you give your hard earned money to someone that was just as capable of going out and earning a living?

It is one thing if a person is mentally ill. I truely feel sorry for those people.

Amen! I totally agree with you.

And people will try to make you out to be heartless because you feel this way...and that is not true at all!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I mean these buses could have come and gotten these people out. They could have packed a bag if they had one, gotten their kids and gotten OUT instead of died. They had a couple or more days ( meaning officials, not the "poor" people) and they could have prepared to get these people out. Do they they think they even knew? No, but WE did...it's like they were left there to die almost.

That's what I meant. I know the average person in these lower income housing wouldn't just leave their homes. But if they had been forced to...taken to places before the storm? Was that even possible?

I agree with you.

I don't think blame for this needs to be placed on the national level but on the local level!

HUNDREDS of buses could have been used to pick these people up!

[dissention]

But why should you give your hard earned money to someone that was just as capable of going out and earning a living?

Yes, everyone has the same opportunities available to them in this great land of ours. We can get great college educations and great jobs, whereas these lazy homeless people can just as easily run a comb through their hair, scrape the dirt out from under their fingernails, and get just as wonderful a job. Viva America!

:rolleyes:

You are aware that a vast number of the homeless do work jobs, and more than one, right?

[diamondsnake]

Amen! I totally agree with you.

And people will try to make you out to be heartless because you feel this way...and that is not true at all!
I agreed with everything you said too. I'm truely not a heartless person, I just don't agree with people getting a free ride if they are capable of supporting themselves.

[dissention]

I agreed with everything you said too. I'm truely not a heartless person, I just don't agree with people getting a free ride if they are capable of supporting themselves.

I hope one day you're out on the streets with no resources just so that you can live what it's like. It takes balls for you to pass judgement on these people without ever being in that situation.

[diamondsnake]

You are aware that a vast number of the homeless do work jobs, and more than one, right?

Actually I was not aware of that. I don't know how true that is though...

[SteveMacD]

Well, not to throw facts around, but the average age of the homeless is 9 years old. Around 23% of the single adult homeless population suffers from some form of severe and persistent mental illness. Of male homeless, 40% have served in the armed forces. Of the female homeless, 22% said they had left their last place of residence because of domestic violence. There is not ONE city in Ohio in which a person could afford housing while working a typical 40 hour week on minimum wage.

[dissention]

Actually I was not aware of that. I don't know how true that is though...

With all due respect, you don't seem to know very much at all about the plight of the homeless. :shrug:

[diamondsnake]

I hope one day you're out on the streets with no resources just so that you can live what it's like. It takes balls for you to pass judgement on these people without ever being in that situation.
Look, if people were born into this situation then I feel sorry for them. If they are mentally ill I feel sorry for them. I don't feel sorry for the people that drop out of school when they had every oppurtunity to finish their education and get a decent job.

[dissention]

I don't feel sorry for the people that drop out of school when they had every oppurtunity to finish their education and get a decent job.

And you know of their personal circumstances how? How do you know what led to their current situation? Like I said, it takes balls to pass judgement on these people.

[Nixxxed]

I agree with you.

I don't think blame for this needs to be placed on the national level but on the local level!

HUNDREDS of buses could have been used to pick these people up!
This whole "why didn't they pick them up in buses?" question is just not based in reality.

You have to realize how big New Orleans is. And, the hurricane finally settled in its path on late Thursday, apparently targeting the city. That means less than 48 hours before conditions were too bad to drive these "buses" around at all.

Think about this - how many buses have been used to transport people from centralized locations like the Superdome and NO Convention Center in the last 4 days? Hundreds, if not close to a thousand. And there are still thousands of people trapped there. So, buses going house-to-house through the streets of NO (with the weather deteriorating every second) would have been able to get people out of their homes? Did you ride a bus to school when you were young? Did it ever run on time? For that matter, do normal city buses or subways ever really run on time?

Not to mention you have to be trained to drive a large vehicle like a bus safely - it's not something you can just hop in and zoom on down the road. And also not to mention that many of the people who normally drive said buses wanted to take care of their own needs, and may have even evacuated. Who would have driven them?

[gldstwmn]

Empathy has gone the way of the dinosaurs, Chris.

That's right my friend. If there's one thing we should all learn from this it's that you better acquire and hang on to as much money as you can in life because if anything bad ever happens to you, like those people in NOLA, the government sure as hell isn't going to look after you.

[gldstwmn]

Low-paying jobs like the one you mentioned aren't enough to survive on. Have you checked the cost of rent lately? Housing is extremely unaffordable, especially in urban areas. Most of their paychecks go to rent, which leaves little money to live on. Additionally, those jobs rarely provide their employees with health insurance.



Wal Mart pays their employees just enough below the poverty level that when they hire you, they give you pamphlets on how to apply for government assistance 'cause you sure ain't gonna get any benefits from Wal Mart.
So for those of you who are down on welfare, how do you feel about a huge corporation that gets huge tax breaks from our government and imports most of its merchandise from China encouraging their employees to go on welfare because they are too god damn cheap to provide them with benefits?

[SteveMacD]

Look, if people were born into this situation then I feel sorry for them. If they are mentally ill I feel sorry for them. I don't feel sorry for the people that drop out of school when they had every oppurtunity to finish their education and get a decent job.
Yeah, because Lord only knows that making a few bad decisions in life basically gives society permission to treat you as less than human. I have a Master of Social Work degree from Ohio State, a job, and very low overhead, and even I find myself in a situation where I have to be extremely cautious with my finances.

The leading cause of homelessness is poverty. If a person is born into poverty, does not have educated parents, and goes to a terrible school system, where people are more focused on surviving the day than ABCs and 123s, can you honestly say with a straight face that they had a REAL opportunity for getting an education?

[diamondsnake]

And you know of their personal circumstances how? How do you know what led to their current situation? Like I said, it takes balls to pass judgement on these people.
I'm sorry if I offended you. I don't want to get into a bigger debate because, like you pointed out, I don't know that much about the issue. I still don't think a person who is capable of getting a job should receive money because they opted not to. And, yes, I do know many of them did not have that option. And those people, I do feel compassion for.

[gldstwmn]

But why should you give your hard earned money to someone that was just as capable of going out and earning a living?

It is one thing if a person is mentally ill. I truely feel sorry for those people.

And are you qualifed to judge by just driving by someone if they are mentally ill or not Christopher?
That's like Bill Frist diagnosing Terri Schiavo from the Senate floor. :lol:

[diamondsnake]

Yeah, because Lord only knows that making a few bad decisions in life basically gives society permission to treat you as less than human. I have a Master of Social Work degree from Ohio State, a job, and very low overhead, and even I find myself in a situation where I have to be extremely cautious with my finances.

The leading cause of homelessness is poverty. If a person is born into poverty, does not have educated parents, and goes to a terrible school system, where people are more focused on surviving the day than ABCs and 123s, can you honestly say with a straight face that they had a REAL opportunity for getting an education?
That's a good point. And honestly, I guess I never thought of it like that- bad school systems, poverty, etc.

[gldstwmn]

No, but WE did...it's like they were left there to die almost.



Yes, it is. That was what Kanye West was alluding to the other night, I believe. Some people are talking about genocide.

[diamondsnake]

I really hate to admit this but you guys are starting to change my mind on this whole issue...

[David]

With all the technology today, no one should have died. This could have been avoided right?Technology doesn't save us all from the ravages of Nature ... or even from our own folly. Large storms will continue to hit crowded coasts, but no amount of planning & action will ever completely prevent death.

However, countries can stack the odds in their favor: for example, a Gulf coastline with much less residential development below sea level & so close to shore could significantly reduce the number of deaths in a hurricane.

[sodascouts]

Thousands are officially dead from Hurricane Katrina. Not one person should have died. They knew it was coming and that it was strong. I saw the warnings on the weather channel a day before it was near the coast.

They should have gotten out the poor without cars. They should have gotten everyone out.

With all the technology today, no one should have died. This could have been avoided right? Why did so many have to die for no reason???

Janet, please, be realistic. Of course at least one person would die. Many people REFUSED to leave. Should they have been hit on the head and kidnapped? As for the poor, it's so easy to say "more should have been done! More should have been done! Obviously if one person died someone screwed up!!" Here we are in the comfort of our homes. We weren't there trying to get people out. We weren't there trying our best to save as many people as possible. But we still have the nerve to sit here and gripe how those people just didn't do good enough, according to us, in all our wisdom and vast knowledge about hurricane preparation and relief. Perhaps you know of some of the magical ways technology could have prevented every single death? If so, please alert the proper authorities.

It is absolutely absurd to argue that anyone wanted this massive amount of death.

[dissention]

But we still have the nerve to sit here and gripe how those people just didn't do good enough, according to us, in all our wisdom and vast knowledge about hurricane preparation and relief. Perhaps you know of some of the magical ways technology could have prevented one death and alert the proper authorities?

It's not wisdom, it's f*cking common sense. Common sense dictates that you don't wait days before you start sending in help. Common sense dictates that you don't play cards while people around you are dying. Common sense dictates that instead of organizing photo-ops, you should be organizing the relief effort. I find it pretty low of you to accuse people of griping about such a horrific disaster, as if you're trying to apply a negative connotation to the anger people feel over this mess, just as I find it pretty disgusting for you to mock the concern people have over this with petty sarcasm about our "wisdom" and the "magic" of technology.

[dissention]

It is absolutely absurd to argue that anyone wanted this massive amount of death.

Just as it's absurd for some to argue that this is the best that we can do and that this disaster was adequately responded to.

[sodascouts]

It's not wisdom, it's f*cking common sense. Common sense dictates that you don't wait days before you start sending in help. Common sense dictates that you don't play cards while people around you are dying. Common sense dictates that instead of organizing photo-ops, you should be organizing the relief effort. I find it pretty low of you to accuse people of griping about such a horrific disaster, as if you're trying to apply a negative connotation to the anger people feel over this mess, just as I find it pretty disgusting for you to mock the concern people have over this with petty sarcasm about our "wisdom" and the "magic" of technology.

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

[Mad4stevie]

Did you see the interview on Meet the Press with the Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, La.? He broke down while telling NBC's Tim Russert the story of the death of the mother of one of the parish’s employees.

Go to www.msnbc.com and click on Video: She Drowned Friday Night.

So very sad. :(

[amber]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.
It frustrates me that someone is so naive that they actually don't believe there was vast governmental incompetence, and that much more could have been done much sooner if the people in charge weren't either: A) incompetent, idiotic, and shortsighted...or B) Didn't give a rat's ass....or C) A tasty combination of both.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It's not wisdom, it's f*cking common sense. Common sense dictates that you don't wait days before you start sending in help. Common sense dictates that you don't play cards while people around you are dying. Common sense dictates that instead of organizing photo-ops, you should be organizing the relief effort. I find it pretty low of you to accuse people of griping about such a horrific disaster, as if you're trying to apply a negative connotation to the anger people feel over this mess, just as I find it pretty disgusting for you to mock the concern people have over this with petty sarcasm about our "wisdom" and the "magic" of technology.

And all your wonderful sarcasm is always a plus! :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

Brava...! :D

[dissention]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

I never once claimed to have the answers, I claimed that this was handled in a way that is shameful. I find it incredibly hard to believe that this relief effort couldn't be more organized and put into action much sooner. Am I happy that people are finally getting out of there? You can bet your sorry ass. But I'm incensed that these people had to go for days without food, water, medical attention, or rescue all because of bureaucratic red tape, fingerpointing, and time spent giving lousy press conferences and setting up photo-ops. I'm incensed that politicians are congratualting each other instead of once making a statement in the media for those who are trapped, dying, and suffering not to give up hope. I'm incensed that these politicians are playing around as if this is some PR playground instead of getting their hands dirty and helping people. Tell the mothers whose children have been raped that the best job is being done, tell that to those who slept on the highway amongst dead bodies and rats for days. If you don't feel that way, that's you, but it takes some serious gall for you to attack the people who do with sarcasm and your holier-than-thou attitude that you enjoying parading about whenever you get the chance. My apologies if you don't like it.

[dissention]

It frustrates me that someone is so naive that they actually don't believe there was vast governmental incompetence, and that much more could have been done much sooner if the people in charge weren't either: A) incompetent, idiotic, and shortsighted...or B) Didn't give a rat's ass....or C) A tasty combination of both.

Well said.

[estranged4life]

ANTHRAX - "There Cannot Be An American Out There That Feels Good Right Now"


ANTHRAX drummer Charlie Benante has posted the following rant at the band's official website in the wake of the American government's perceived failure to properly aid the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

"There cannot be an American out there that feels good right now. I know my voice means ****. In fact, the way I feel right now, nobody's voice means a thing. Is Louisiana in America?? It doesn't look like it to me. These politicians are so concerned with making sure they pat themselves on the back and say 'Congressman so and so did such a great job.' WHAT?? I'm sure you are watching what I have been watching. Who the hell is doing A GREAT JOB? I was so happy to see CNN's Anderson Cooper become human and let his emotions come out and be REAL!

Our Prez does not have the capability to handle these type of things. Please don't jump all over me for saying this. I truly believe it. I just don't 'feel it' with him.

What took so long? Why did the Prez on the second day of this tragedy fly to San Diego and not to Louisiana? Why so late to act on this? WHY WHY WHY? We will never get an answer! Think about it. Even if you are a Bush supporter... think for a second. Oh, I bet you have some answer if you're a Bush supporter - never mind.

These people are taking any means necessary down there. I would do the same. If your kids, your girl, your mom were dying and needed water or food, what would you do??

We all will pay for this too. Watch how our insurance goes up and gas will go up more. Why don't they take the tax off of the gas price? People need to get to work, how can they afford to fill their tanks? It cost $52.00 to fill my tank today, and it wasn't even filled up, hahahahaha. I gotta laugh. Make me a Hybrid that has some style for God's sake!

I am so sorry for what has happened to you people down there my heart and my donation has gone out to you. I am emotional and venting.

Links to donate below. Thanks for reading.


Embarrassed and Sad,
Charlie B.

redcross.org
salvationarmyusa.org

[Mari]

I was talking about this with my mum today, because about ten years ago we had a similar threat of nature in the Netherlands, namely massive floods in the river delta's. Authorities evacuated 300.000 people. Every single one of them living in that area. No one stayed behind, or police would get them out of their houses. There was shelter for them in safe parts of the country, either at other people's houses, gym halls, etcetera. A massive operation, but it worked.
I'm just telling this to show, it can be done! It's not impossible! But the government has to take it serious and prepare the country for it. We've special organisations taking care of water protection and plenty of plans for disasters.

Fortunately for us in 1995 there were no massive dyke breaks and most people could go back home within a few days.
It could be a difference between our countries that the threat of water here's taken much more seriously because the damage it can do has been experienced much more seriously too, over history. But I don't know if you've ever had floods like this before there.

Excuse me while I puke for patting us Dutch folks so much on the back tonight, I did not intend to, honestly.

edit, on re-reading, I did not mean to say that all deaths could've been prevented, wasn't being that naive. But surely a lot of them.

[trackaghost]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

People are getting saved and helped... FIVE DAYS AFTER it happened.
Do you not see a problem with that?
I'm sorry how is that not incompetent?

[sodascouts]

I never once claimed to have the answers, I claimed that this was handled in a way that is shameful. I find it incredibly hard to believe that this relief effort couldn't be more organized and put into action much sooner. Am I happy that people are finally getting out of there? You can bet your sorry ass. But I'm incensed that these people had to go for days without food, water, medical attention, or rescue all because of bureaucratic red tape, fingerpointing, and time spent giving lousy press conferences and setting up photo-ops. I'm incensed that politicians are congratualting each other instead of once making a statement in the media for those who are trapped, dying, and suffering not to give up hope. I'm incensed that these politicians are playing around as if this is some PR playground instead of getting their hands dirty and helping people. Tell the mothers whose children have been raped that the best job is being done, tell that to those who slept on the highway amongst dead bodies and rats for days. If you don't feel that way, that's you, but it takes some serious gall for you to attack the people who do with sarcasm and your holier-than-thou attitude that you enjoying parading about whenever you get the chance. My apologies if you don't like it.

Yes, many people made mistakes, but they did try their best. And there are politicians out there getting there hands dirty, such as Al Gore.

Again, it's easy to talk about the suffering and act as if the people who disagree with you don't care. Calling me self-righteous? Ha! Pot, meet kettle.

[EnchantedSLN]

It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it.

Wow. I'm sorry, but, ditto.

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable :(.

[dissention]

Yes, many people made mistakes, but they did try their best.

It's a shame that you feel that way. It's a sad time in this country when this is the best we can offer our suffering brothers and sisters.

And there are politicians out there getting there hands dirty, such as Al Gore.

And then there are those who are watching Broadway shows and telling reporters that we should "bulldoze" New Orleans and not bother with rebuilding.

Again, it's easy to talk about the suffering and act as if the people who disagree with you don't care.

It's not that they don't care, it's that they happily minimize the incompetence being brought forth under the guise of "trying their best." If this is their best, it's not good enough and it never will be.

[dissention]

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable :(.

You sure hit the nail on the head with everything you just said, Tiffany.

[heyjupiter678]

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable :(.
Well said, Tiff. I agree completely.

[sodascouts]

Wow. I'm sorry, but, ditto.

It's unrealistic to think that every single life could have been spared in a natural disaster of this magnitude. But it's even more ridiculous to think the preparation and response we've seen, given the information and resources we had, is the best we could muster. And I find it really condescending to chastise people for "griping" about massive loss of life (and we are talking about loss of life here; people aren't complaining about broken fingernails) when much of it was reasonably preventable :(.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean people shouldn't grieve over the loss of life. Despite what some may think, I'm not heartless. I do believe many people made mistakes and I'm sure they will work to correct them. What I don't believe is that those in charge were only to happy to let others die, or didn't care enough to help them.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

If you don't feel that way, that's you, but it takes some serious gall for you to attack the people who do with sarcasm and your holier-than-thou attitude that you enjoying parading about whenever you get the chance. My apologies if you don't like it.

OH P-A-LEASE Ms. Thing....

If anyone should know about sarcasm and a holier-than-thou attitude...it would be you! :nod:

[Mad4stevie]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9207190/

Storm’s victims unlike much of America
Census analysis shows how demographics of poverty contributed to disaster

People living in the path of Hurricane Katrina’s worst devastation were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car — factors that may help explain why so many failed to evacuate as the storm approached.

An Associated Press analysis of Census data shows that the residents in the three dozen hardest-hit neighborhoods in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama also were disproportionately minority and had incomes $10,000 below the national average.

“Let them know we’re not bums. We have houses. Our houses were destroyed. We have jobs. It’s not our fault that we didn’t have cars to leave,� Shatonia Thomas, 27, said as she walked near New Orleans’ convention center five days after the storm, still trapped in the destruction with her children, ages 6 and 9.

‘A different equation’
Money and transportation — two keys to surviving a natural disaster — were inaccessible for many who got left behind in the Gulf region’s worst squalor.
“It’s a different equation for poor people,� explained Dan Carter, a University of South Carolina historian. “There’s a certain ease of transportation and funds that the middle class in this country takes for granted.�

Catina Miller, a 32-year-old grocery deli worker who lived in the Ninth Ward, a poverty-stricken New Orleans enclave created in the 1870s by immigrants who were too poor to find higher ground, said she certainly would have liked to have left the city before the hurricane hit.

“But where can you go if you don’t have a car?� she asked. “Not everyone can just pick up and take off.�

‘Enough blame to go around’
Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University in Washington, said emergency planners have known for years that the poverty and lack of transportation in New Orleans would be a significant problem, but the government spent more time and money preparing itself — rather than communities — for disaster.

“All issues were known,� said Harrald, whose institute had been scheduling a series of emergency planning community meetings through a partnership with the University of New Orleans. “But it was still a work in progress. ... There’s enough blame to go around for everybody.�

From the analysis
The AP analysis showed:

Median household income in the most devastated neighborhood was $32,000, or $10,000 less than the national average.
Two in 10 households in the disaster area had no car, compared with 1 in 10 in nationwide.
Nearly 25 percent of those living in the hardest-hit areas were below the poverty line, about double the national average. About 4.5 percent in the disaster area received public assistance; nationwide, the number was about 3.5 percent.
About 60 percent of the 700,000 people in the three dozen neighborhoods were minority. Nationwide, about 1 in 3 Americans is a racial minority.
One in 200 American households doesn’t have adequate plumbing. One in 100 households in the most affected areas didn’t have decent plumbing, which, according to the Census, includes running hot and cold water, a shower or bath and an indoor toilet.
Nationwide, about 7 percent of households with children are headed by a single mother. In the three dozen neighborhoods, 12 percent were single-mother households.
“It’s the same people who don’t have the wherewithal to get out of Dodge,� said National Guard Lt. Col. Connie McNabb, who was running a medical unit at the besieged convention center in New Orleans.

The disparities were even more glaring in large, urban areas. One of the worst-hit neighborhoods in the heart of New Orleans, for example, had a median household income of less than $7,500. Nearly three of every four residents fell below the poverty line, and barely 1 in 3 people had a car.

“I didn’t have much in there,� said Deanna Harris, a 57-year-old unemployed New Orleans resident, “but it was mine.

“Now, this is what I’ve got,� she said, patting a plastic bag.

‘Out of sight, out of mind’
The Ground Zero victims of Mississippi have much the same story. In one Pascagoula neighborhood, where 30 percent of residents are minorities, more than 20 percent live in poverty.

In Alabama, where Katrina wasn’t as severe, one of the hardest hit areas was a downtown Mobile neighborhood, where the median household income is barely $25,000 and 1 of every 4 residents lives below the poverty line.

“There’s not a lot of interest in this issue, except when there’s something dramatic,� said Carter, the South Carolina historian. “By and large, the poor are simply out of sight, out of mind.�

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[sodascouts]

And then there are those who are watching Broadway shows and telling reporters that we should "bulldoze" New Orleans and not bother with rebuilding.


And I argue that these are the vast minority. In fact how many of this type can you name? Or are you talking about the pundits who appear on the O'Reilly factor? :rolleyes:

[dissention]

OH P-A-LEASE Ms. Thing....

If anyone should know about sarcasm and a holier-than-thou attitude...it would be you! :nod:

And yourself, too. :xoxo:

[amber]

What I don't believe is that those in charge were only to happy to let others die, or didn't care enough to help them.

Well, they didn't care that a huge portion of them were living in abject poverty before the hurricane, sooo...
I think with the totally unacceptable way the rescue went, not to mention the nonexistent pre-evacuation help - Despite vast amounts of resources at the gov't disposal - in some way it's hard not to surmise that those in charge didn't care.
That's why people are so angry, because those in charge behaved EXACTLY as though they don't care. And what Mari shared about her gov't evacuating every single person before the threat of such a thing in her country only underscores this point, to me.

[strandinthewind]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

Well, then let's look at the facts, not the BS. FEMA took control of the situation on Sunday at Gov. Blanco's request. When a Federal Agency takes charge, they are in charge, not the state, though the state must also simultaneously use its resources in conjunction with FEMA. FEMA and Pres. Bush acted ahead of time and outfitted the SuperDome and other shelters with food and water for two or so days in anticipation of tens of thousands being evacuated to them. They also planned to do house to house searches and rescue tens of thousands of evacuees. Finally, FEMA and the government of Louisiana have been planning for a higher than class 3 hurricane to hit NOLA for years and FEMA had an approved plan. So, clearly they knew this storm was going to be bad and on August 28, the Gov. of Louisiana specifically called on FEMA to execute that plan. Any talk to the contrary is not supported by the facts.

Then, FEMA is overwhelmed by the rescue effort, which it had planned for mind you. Also, FEMA refused what appears to be hundreds of private and public requests from to ship food, water, and manpower into NOLA and the other damaged areas. Yet, FEMA refused it. Why they did so is unexplainable to me. Then, it takes FEMA on its own and with the self-admitted constant observation of the Pres. five days to get food and supplies and manpower into NOLA and the other damaged areas. How is that possibly explained on any rationale level when, again, hundreds stood ready five days before but were refused.

Those are the facts. If you want to draw the conclusion that W and FEMA did nothing wrong and that five or more days is a reasonable amount of time. So be it. I think, however, if you were watching your infant die in your arms from starvation, dehydration, and heat - you might just be a little angry at the Fed. Govt., whose job it was to save you and your dead infant.

For the life of me, I will never understand why people do not get that and instead want to defend W and his glacier like second response to this.

On a related topic, I think the people that could have gotten out should have done so and that they did not makes me angey at them because they hindered the evacuation of the needy by comparison. But, I think no one is saying the really poor and handicapped should be faulted for not evacuating a town that has essentially two ways out in an evacuation and no public transportation to do so and a FEMA plan to put them in the dome :shrug:

[dissention]

And I argue that these are the vast minority.

Oh, I agree. The rest are too busy congratulating each other in press conferences and on television appearances.

Or are you talking about the pundits who appear on the O'Reilly factor? :rolleyes:

No, I'm referring to Condi Rice and Hastert.

[strandinthewind]

I agree with you.

I don't think blame for this needs to be placed on the national level but on the local level!

HUNDREDS of buses could have been used to pick these people up!

Please listen carefully this time - it was FEMA, which is Federal, not a state, Agency's job to do the evacuation. Do you not understand that FEMA evacuated according to their plan the people to the Dome in the first place. So, please stop incorrectly saying it is all the state's fault. That is wrong. Thus, the blame for dropping the ball is solidly on the shoulders of FEMA and W as the President. But, you will never admit this. Why, I have no idea.

[amber]

If anyone reads the article Heather just posted, it seems glaringly obvious why everything went down as it did.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And yourself, too. :xoxo:

haha! :laugh:

:xoxo:

[sodascouts]

Well, then let's look at the facts, not the BS. FEMA took control of the situation on Sunday at Gov. Blanco's request. When a Federal Agency takes charge, they are in charge, not the state, though the state must also simultaneously use its resources in conjunction with FEMA. FEMA and Pres. Bush acted ahead of time and outfitted the SuperDome and other shelters with food and water for two or so days in anticipation of tens of thousands being evacuated to them. They also planned to do house to house searches and rescue tens of thousands of evacuees. Finally, FEMA and the government of Louisiana have been planning for a higher than class 3 hurricane to hit NOLA for years and FEMA had an approved plan. So, clearly they knew this storm was going to be bad and on August 28, the Gov. of Louisiana specifically called on FEMA to execute that plan. Any talk to the contrary is not supported by the facts.

Then, FEMA is overwhelmed by the rescue effort, which it had planned for mind you. Also, FEMA refused what appears to be hundreds of private and public requests from to ship food, water, and manpower into NOLA and the other damaged areas. Yet, FEMA refused it. Why they did so is unexplainable to me. Then, it takes FEMA on its own and with the self-admitted constant observation of the Pres. five days to get food and supplies and manpower into NOLA and the other damaged areas. How is that possibly explained on any rationale level when, again, hundreds stood ready five days before but were refused.

Those are the facts. If you want to draw the conclusion that W and FEMA did nothing wrong and that five or more days is a reasonable amount of time. So be it. I think, however, if you were watching your infant die in your arms from starvation, dehydration, and heat - you might just be a little angry at the Fed. Govt., whose job it was to save you and your dead infant.

For the life of me, I will never understand why people do not get that and instead want to defend W and his glacier like second response to this.

On a related topic, I think the people that could have gotten out should have done so and that they did not makes me angey at them because they hindered the evacuation of the needy by comparison. But, I think no one is saying the really poor and handicapped should be faulted for not evacuating a town that has essentially two ways out in an evacuation and no public transportation to do so and a FEMA plan to put them in the dome :shrug:

It looks to me like they did make efforts to respond from the facts you posted above. I cannot explain why FEMA didn't accept some of the help either, but it surely wasn't because they weren't concerned about the people in New Orleans. That said, certainly any problems should be addressed and corrected. I'm just giving relief workers the benefit of the doubt. As for "defending W," his name didn't even come up in my post.

[sodascouts]

No, I'm referring to Condi Rice and Hastert.

Rice adovcates bulldozing New Orleans? I hadn't read that.

[David]

It will be interesting to see whether anyone attempts to find out how many of those who stayed did so voluntarily, & how many simply couldn't leave. The opportunity to demagogue with either figure is so valuable that I would be surprised if they ever accurately determined. I heard Trent Lott on TV saying that only the left-wing media were questioning whether or not too many National Guardsmen were in Iraq. But I saw several residents of Biloxi on TV asking that question earlier -- they weren't reporters & editors!

Those folks in Washington are SO SO out of touch.

A decade ago the U.S. was making noises about weather modification in the western Pacific to reduce the intensity of typhoons around Guam & the CNMI. The Japanese asked them to give up on the idea -- a lot of the recharge of groundwater in the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan & China is from typhoons.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It looks to me like they did make efforts to respond from the facts you posted above. I cannot explain why FEMA didn't accept some of the help either, but it surely wasn't because they weren't concerned about the people in New Orleans. That said certainly any problems they should be addressed and corrected. I'm just giving relief workers the benefit of the doubt. As for "defending W," his name didn't even come up in my post.

I agree with you. I don't think unless you were there...that anyone of us could know what it was like, and what it is like now. Time, energy, effort, all these things a good evacuation make! I think considering we are only human, things are being taken care of now as fast as they can be.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Rice adovcates bulldozing New Orleans? I hadn't read that.

I think he was talking about Hastert. Rice is the one who went to the broadway play.

[sodascouts]

I agree with you. I don't think unless you were there...that anyone of us could know what it was like, and what it is like now. Time, energy, effort, all these things a good evacuation make! I think considering we are only human, things are being taken care of now as fast as they can be.

It's not like I'm saying everything went hunky dory and all is well. That's obviously not the case. But does this mean we should go around condemning? We should identify problems and fix them - but some folks think they know all the problems and whose fault they are when that is not necessarily the case. I for one have heard all sorts of conflicting information about where the problems lie.

[sodascouts]

I think he was talking about Hastert. Rice is the one who went to the broadway play.

Ah. Perhaps we should compile a list of things one is not allowed to do within a certain number of days after a disaster, which also needs to be determined. I am sure Josh can help us with this.

Edit: Oops there I go being sarcastic again! But that's the way some of us deal with conflict. In fact one of my friends wrote an interesting article on sarcasm being the weapon especially of women... but I won't get into that. At any rate I do not see why sarcasm is any less legitimate than other means of expressing criticism. In fact I often find it a little more amusing than the other types.

[estranged4life]

bulldoze any city I think Washington DC should be first in line :nod:

Calling politicians out of touch is like stating that Fleetwood Mac is slow in releasing new studio material..."Kinda obvious there aint it Capt.Obvious"? (The "Capt.Obvious" isnt referred to anyone specifically....Just like the commerical with that character is all!)

[amber]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9207190/

Storm’s victims unlike much of America
Census analysis shows how demographics of poverty contributed to disaster

People living in the path of Hurricane Katrina’s worst devastation were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car — factors that may help explain why so many failed to evacuate as the storm approached.

An Associated Press analysis of Census data shows that the residents in the three dozen hardest-hit neighborhoods in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama also were disproportionately minority and had incomes $10,000 below the national average.

“Let them know we’re not bums. We have houses. Our houses were destroyed. We have jobs. It’s not our fault that we didn’t have cars to leave,� Shatonia Thomas, 27, said as she walked near New Orleans’ convention center five days after the storm, still trapped in the destruction with her children, ages 6 and 9.

‘A different equation’
Money and transportation — two keys to surviving a natural disaster — were inaccessible for many who got left behind in the Gulf region’s worst squalor.
“It’s a different equation for poor people,� explained Dan Carter, a University of South Carolina historian. “There’s a certain ease of transportation and funds that the middle class in this country takes for granted.�

Catina Miller, a 32-year-old grocery deli worker who lived in the Ninth Ward, a poverty-stricken New Orleans enclave created in the 1870s by immigrants who were too poor to find higher ground, said she certainly would have liked to have left the city before the hurricane hit.

“But where can you go if you don’t have a car?� she asked. “Not everyone can just pick up and take off.�

‘Enough blame to go around’
Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University in Washington, said emergency planners have known for years that the poverty and lack of transportation in New Orleans would be a significant problem, but the government spent more time and money preparing itself — rather than communities — for disaster.

“All issues were known,� said Harrald, whose institute had been scheduling a series of emergency planning community meetings through a partnership with the University of New Orleans. “But it was still a work in progress. ... There’s enough blame to go around for everybody.�

From the analysis
The AP analysis showed:

Median household income in the most devastated neighborhood was $32,000, or $10,000 less than the national average.
Two in 10 households in the disaster area had no car, compared with 1 in 10 in nationwide.
Nearly 25 percent of those living in the hardest-hit areas were below the poverty line, about double the national average. About 4.5 percent in the disaster area received public assistance; nationwide, the number was about 3.5 percent.
About 60 percent of the 700,000 people in the three dozen neighborhoods were minority. Nationwide, about 1 in 3 Americans is a racial minority.
One in 200 American households doesn’t have adequate plumbing. One in 100 households in the most affected areas didn’t have decent plumbing, which, according to the Census, includes running hot and cold water, a shower or bath and an indoor toilet.
Nationwide, about 7 percent of households with children are headed by a single mother. In the three dozen neighborhoods, 12 percent were single-mother households.
“It’s the same people who don’t have the wherewithal to get out of Dodge,� said National Guard Lt. Col. Connie McNabb, who was running a medical unit at the besieged convention center in New Orleans.

The disparities were even more glaring in large, urban areas. One of the worst-hit neighborhoods in the heart of New Orleans, for example, had a median household income of less than $7,500. Nearly three of every four residents fell below the poverty line, and barely 1 in 3 people had a car.

“I didn’t have much in there,� said Deanna Harris, a 57-year-old unemployed New Orleans resident, “but it was mine.

“Now, this is what I’ve got,� she said, patting a plastic bag.

‘Out of sight, out of mind’
The Ground Zero victims of Mississippi have much the same story. In one Pascagoula neighborhood, where 30 percent of residents are minorities, more than 20 percent live in poverty.

In Alabama, where Katrina wasn’t as severe, one of the hardest hit areas was a downtown Mobile neighborhood, where the median household income is barely $25,000 and 1 of every 4 residents lives below the poverty line.

“There’s not a lot of interest in this issue, except when there’s something dramatic,� said Carter, the South Carolina historian. “By and large, the poor are simply out of sight, out of mind.�

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

You guys who are saying we shouldn't be blaming, and denying that the gov't didn't care about these people might want to read this.

[sodascouts]

You guys who are saying we shouldn't be blaming, and denying that the gov't didn't care about these people might want to read this.

Nowhere in that article do I read that the government didn't care about the people of New Orleans.

[dissention]

Rice adovcates bulldozing New Orleans? I hadn't read that.

I never said she did, I said she went to a Broadway show in the midst of this. And she went shopping in Saks Fifth Avenue and played some tennis.

[strandinthewind]

It looks to me like they did make efforts to respond from the facts you posted above. I cannot explain why FEMA didn't accept some of the help either, but it surely wasn't because they weren't concerned about the people in New Orleans. That said, certainly any problems should be addressed and corrected. I'm just giving relief workers the benefit of the doubt. As for "defending W," his name didn't even come up in my post.

So, denounce him now if that is not what you implied. The buck stops at him and even he admits his actions were inadeqaute :shrug:

Again, if it were not for the massive public outcry, I truly believe the vast majority of the people would still be in the Superdome and at the Convention Center.

Also, I know you care about the people in NOLA and have said nothing to the contrary. I also know that you are saying the people actually giving relief - the people in the field - are doing a great job - I agree, they are. My beef is with the brass and I think we cannot complain enough about them.

In fact, I just got off of the phone with my brother who said FEMA is still refusing assistance from some. I mean how much more of this are we to take before getting out the march on Washington :shrug:

[dissention]

Ah. Perhaps we should compile a list of things one is not allowed to do within a certain number of days after a disaster, which also needs to be determined. I am sure Josh can help us with this.


Sure. I think it's obvious how inappropriate it is to do such things while there is literally no real help for the people down there. For her to go on vacation in the middle of this is shocking because of the audacity involved in doing so.

[strandinthewind]

I agree with you. I don't think unless you were there...that anyone of us could know what it was like, and what it is like now. Time, energy, effort, all these things a good evacuation make! I think considering we are only human, things are being taken care of now as fast as they can be.

My brother was there. He went on his own with 500 other self-organized people from the state govt. and pulled people out of houses at his own peril. So, don't hand me that.

[estranged4life]

FEMA="F**ked Every Minority Around" in NOLA!!!!

[sodascouts]

My brother was there. He went on his own with 500 other self-organized people from the state govt. and pulled people out of houses at his own peril. So, don't hand me that.

That's very admirable. I hope everyone in your family is OK, BTW.

[Mad4stevie]

My brother was there. He went on his own with 500 other self-organized people from the state govt. and pulled people out of houses at his own peril. So, don't hand me that.

I am surprised that he was allowed to go in. I have heard numerous stories of others driving there to help and being refused access because of the shooting, etc.

[strandinthewind]

Ah. Perhaps we should compile a list of things one is not allowed to do within a certain number of days after a disaster, which also needs to be determined. I am sure Josh can help us with this.

Edit: Oops there I go being sarcastic again! But that's the way some of us deal with conflict. In fact one of my friends wrote an interesting article on sarcasm being the weapon especially of women... but I won't get into that. At any rate I do not see why sarcasm is any less legitimate than other means of expressing criticism. In fact I often find it a little more amusing than the other types.

Here's one - follow the plan you set in place years before that :rolleyes:

Here's another, when people offer vast amounts of help while you are still thinking about what to do - take them up on their offer - it will save the lives you are supposed to be saving.

Finally, don't let W or his cronies anywhere near any place that needs to be evacuated in less than five or more days.

[dissention]

I am surprised that he was allowed to go in. I have heard numerous stories of others driving there to help and being refused access because of the shooting, etc.

If Harry Connick Jr. and Charmaine Neville can drive right on in there to help people... :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I am surprised that he was allowed to go in. I have heard numerous stories of others driving there to help and being refused access because of the shooting, etc.

Many went. Many are helping on their own. Many know places the Feds have no clue about. Also, the state govt. was organizing on its own once FEMA deceided it could not give any assistance other than rescue and the dome feedings until Friday.

[Mad4stevie]

If Harry Connick Jr. and Charmaine Neville can drive right on in there to help people... :shrug:

Yeah, I know. It was just something that I had read about. I don't know much about access to the city, so I don't know what all ways people can get in there.

[strandinthewind]

That's very admirable. I hope everyone in your family is OK, BTW.


Thanks :xoxo: they are. My bother is displaced, but his house is relatively fine. He, a staunch Bush supporter until now, cannot stand W. He told me about things I just cannot even believe - deafening cries for help from 360 degrees, so many bodies floating you could walk across them, the smell of death, animals feeding, and some so horrible I will not say them here. This was in America. I am so horrified I cannot sleep at night.

[David]

Many went. Many are helping on their own.Nobody in my family went to help. I am extremely disappointed over their selfishness & laziness. I told them so recently. We really hashed it out.

[strandinthewind]

Nobody in my family went to help. I am extremely disappointed over their selfishness & laziness. I told them so recently. We really hashed it out.

LOL - I think they should have walked from Cali to help :lol:

[David]

LOL - I think they should have walked from Cali to help :lol:Don't stand up for them. They're rotten selfish batards.

All of this makes me want to go watch "Paddle to the Sea." Amber, do you want a DVD copy of "Paddle to the Sea"?

[Mad4stevie]

Ya'll gonna love this . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9206991/

Some evacuees see religious message in Katrina
Across three states, survivors weigh links among faith, sin and the storm

HOUSTON - In the last week, Joseph Brant lost his apartment, walked by scores of dead in the streets, traversed pools of toxic water and endured an arduous journey to escape the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in his hometown New Orleans.

On Sunday, he was praising the Lord, saying the ordeal was a test that ended up dispelling his lifelong distrust of white people and setting his life on a new course. He said he hitched a ride Friday in a van driven by a group of white folks.

“Before this whole thing I had a complex about white people; this thing changed me forever,� said Brant, 36, a truck driver who, like many of the refugees receiving public assistance in Houston, Texas, is black.

“It was a spiritual experience for me, man,� he said of the aftermath of a catastrophe al Qaida-linked Web sites called evidence of the “wrath of God� striking an arrogant America.

Brant was one of the evacuees across Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi who gave thought to religion Sunday, almost a week after the floods changed their lives, perhaps forever.

For one, ‘the work of Satan’
At the Astrodome in Houston, where 16,000 refugees received food and shelter, Rose McNeely took the floods as a sign from God to move away from New Orleans, where she said her two grown children had been killed in past years in gunfights.

“I lost everything I had in New Orleans,� she said as she shared a cigarette with a friend. “He brought me here because he knows.�

Gerald Greenwood, 55, collected a free Bible earlier in the morning, but sat watching a science fiction television program above the stands in an enclosed stadium once home to Houston’s baseball and football teams. “This is the work of Satan right here,� he said of the floods.

The Bible was one of the few books many of the refugees had among their possessions. On Friday, several Jehovah’s Witnesses walked the floor of the Astrodome, where thousands of cots were set up, to offer their services.

For another, the wages of sin
On Sunday, the Salvation Army conducted an outside religious service that included songs such as “What a Friend We Have in Jesus.�

“Natural disaster is caused by the sin in the world,� said Maj. John Jones, area commander for the Salvation Army, who led the service. “The acts of God are what happens afterwards ... all the good that happens.�

“God made all this happen for a reason. This city has been going to hell in a handbasket spiritually,� Tim Washington, 42, said at New Orleans’ Superdome Saturday as he waited to be evacuated.

“If we can spend billions of dollars chasing after [Osama] bin Laden, can’t we get guns and drugs off the street?�, he asked. Washington said he stole a boat last Monday and he and a friend, using wooden fence posts as oars, delivered about 200 people to the shelter. “The sheriff’s department stood across the street and did nothing,� he added.

The Salvation Army’s Jones was one of many trying to comfort victims in Sunday services across several states.

What God demands
At St. Aloysius Catholic Church in Baton Rouge, several hundred local parishioners and storm survivors attended the Sunday service. “I wish we could take your broken hearts and give you ours,� Rev. Donald Blanchard told the gathering.

In addition to consoling storm victims, the church’s lead pastor, Jerald Burns, said Katrina’s tragedy needed to be a rallying cry for parishioners, church leaders and government leaders to help the needy.

“It’s not what God is asking of us,� Burns said. “It is what God is demanding of us.�

Some people walked out of the church in tears in mid-service.

Churches in many states have taken in evacuees and organized aid for people who in many cases lost everything they had in the storm. But at least some bristled at the role of religion in helping the afflicted.

“We’re getting reports of how some religion-based ’aid’ groups are trying to fly evangelists into the stricken areas and how U.S. Army chaplains are carrying bibles -- not food or water -- to ’comfort’ people,� Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheist, said in a statement.

“People need material aid, medical care and economic support -- not prayers and preaching,� she said.

Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

[amber]

You guys who are saying we shouldn't be blaming, and denying that the gov't didn't care about these people might want to read this.
If they had cared, they would have, like the article said, spent more time and money shoring up new orleans, instead of Washington. Read the bold part again - sounds like they didn't care, to me. Do you really need the literal words "they don't care about the people in New Orleans" to infer that they don't? Their actions show they don't. And you're smart, I think you can see that just as well as I can. it's all about someone's actions. They can say a billion times that they care, but if they don't do anything to help those people - it's obvious they don't care.

[Mad4stevie]

People can now to to www.weather.gov and find aerial pictures taken by NOAA to see what there home area looks like . . .

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM

If you click on the area, it will show the satellite image. It really amazes me.

[sodascouts]

If they had cared, they would have, like the article said, spent more time and money shoring up new orleans, instead of Washington. Read the bold part again - sounds like they didn't care, to me. Do you really need the literal words "they don't care about the people in New Orleans" to infer that they don't? Their actions show they don't. And you're smart, I think you can see that just as well as I can. it's all about someone's actions. They can say a billion times that they care, but if they don't do anything to help those people - it's obvious they don't care.

I see what you're saying (and you don't have to quote yourself to get the point across). Again, I'm not saying all is hunky dory but it's not accurate to say "they don't do anything to help those people."

[estranged4life]

I am so horrified I cannot sleep at night.

and get stressed out from life that you cannot sleep...Trust me, I have aged (Or at least I feel like I have) 30 years in a span of 6 months.

I had to turn off the coverage of New Orleans...Bringing back too many horrors of OKC in 1995 which kept me sleepless for quite a long time.

[sodascouts]

People can now to to www.weather.gov and find aerial pictures taken by NOAA to see what there home area looks like . . .

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM

If you click on the area, it will show the satellite image. It really amazes me.

Thanks for this, Heather.

[amber]

I see what you're saying (and you don't have to quote yourself to get the point across). Again, I'm not saying all is hunky dory but it's not accurate to say "they don't do anything to help those people."
I just noticed that, I actually meant to quote you, not myself. - when you said "nowhere does the article say they don't care".

[Mad4stevie]

Thanks for this, Heather.

Sure. They just did a piece on it for MSNBC.

[sodascouts]

I just noticed that, I actually meant to quote you, not myself. - when you said "nowhere does the article say they don't care".

Ah ok. I understand. I have often quoted the wrong person before, although never myself! lol

[strandinthewind]

I see what you're saying (and you don't have to quote yourself to get the point across). Again, I'm not saying all is hunky dory but it's not accurate to say "they don't do anything to help those people."

I, too, think it is inaccurate to say the Fed. Govt. does not care at all. In fact, the initial actions and FEMA and the ACE's work over the last three decades support that they care. I also do not think this is the heated racist question people are saying, though clearly if these had been mostly rich white people, the help would have come sooner. I say this because if the govt. could launch an effort to find the dead body of JFK, Jr., et al, and do so in a matter of days on a holiday weekend - how can we do that and not this :shrug: So, I think there is a racism thread in this. But, that is my opinion and I think it is supported by facts.

In the end, I think W thought FEMA could handle the second part of this because they had handled the first part okay. Sadly, they did not, but the buck stops with him and he should be accountable because if they had acted in a proper manner, he would be basking in the glow of it :shrug:

[amber]

I, too, think it is inaccurate to say the Fed. Govt. does not care at all. In fact, the initial actions and FEMA and the ACE's work over the last three decades support that they care. I also do not think this is the heated racist question people are saying, though clearly if these had been mostly rich white people, the help would have come sooner. I say this because if the govt. could launch an effort to find the dead body of JFK, Jr., et al, and do so in a matter of days on a holiday weekend - how can we do that and not this :shrug: So, I think there is a racism thread in this. But, that is my opinion and I think it is supported by facts.

In the end, I think W thought FEMA could handle the second part of this because they had handled the first part okay. Sadly, they did not, but the buck stops with him and he should be accountable because if they had acted in a proper manner, he would be basking in the glow of it :shrug:
Yes, there are many aspects to this whole situation. I think race is one of them - but clearly not the only one.

[strandinthewind]

More proof that FEMA knew and was just not prepared :mad:

from www.nola.com

Times-Picayune


Sunday, September 04, 2005

FEMA knew storm's potential, Mayfield says
Sunday, 4:44 p.m.

By Mark Schleifstein
Staff writer

Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, said
Sunday that officials with the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security, including FEMA Director Mike Brown and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, listened in on electronic briefings given by his staff in advance of Hurricane Katrina slamming Louisiana and Mississippi and were advised of the storm’s potential deadly effects.

Mayfield said the strength of the storm and the potential disaster it could bring were made clear during both the briefings and in formal advisories, which warned of a storm surge capable of overtopping levees in New Orleans and winds strong enough to blow out windows of high-rise buildings. He said the briefings included information on expected wind speed, storm surge, rainfall and the potential for tornados to accompany the storm as it came ashore.

“We were briefing them way before landfall,� Mayfield said. “It’s not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped.

“I keep looking back to see if there was anything else we could have done, and I just don’t know what it would be,� he said.

Chertoff told reporters Saturday that government officials had not expected the damaging combination of a powerful hurricane levee breaches that flooded New Orleans.

Brown, Mayfield said, is a dedicated public servant.

“The question is why he couldn’t shake loose the resources that were needed,’’ he said.

Brown and Chertoff could not be reached for comment on Sunday
afternoon.

In the days before Katrina hit, Mayfield said, his staff also briefed FEMA, which under the Department of Homeland Security, at FEMA’s headquarters in Washington, D.C., its Region 6 office in Dallas and the Region 4 office in Atlanta about the potential effects of the storm.

He said all of those briefings were logged in the hurricane center’s records.

And Mayfield said his staff also participated in the five-day
“Hurricane Pam� exercise sponsored by FEMA and the Louisiana Office of
Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness in July 2004 that assumed a similar storm would hit the city.

FEMA’s own July 23, 2004, news release announcing the end of that exercise summed up the assumptions they used, which were eerily close to what Katrina delivered:
“Hurricane Pam brought sustained winds of 120 mph, up to 20 inches of rain in parts of southeast Louisiana and storm surge that topped levees in the New Orleans area. More than one million residents evacuated and Hurricane Pam destroyed 500,000-600,000 buildings. Emergency officials from 50 parish, state, federal and volunteer organizations faced this scenario during a five-day exercise held this week at the State Emergency Operations Center in Baton Rouge.

“The exercise used realistic weather and damage information developed
by the National Weather Service, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the
LSU Hurricane Center and other state and federal agencies to help
officials develop joint response plans for a catastrophic hurricane in
Louisiana.�

That plan assumed such a hurricane would result in the opening of 1,000 evacuee shelters that would have to be staffed for 100 days, and a search and rescue operation using 800 people. The storm would create 30 million tons of debris, including 237,000 cubic yards of household hazardous waste.

Mayfield said his concern now is that another named storm could hit
either New Orleans or the Mississippi Gulf coast, as September is the
most active month of the annual hurricane season.

“This is like the fourth inning in a nine-inning ballgame,� he said. “We know that another one would cause extreme stress on the people who have been hurt by Katrina.�

Mark Schleifstein can be reached at [email protected].

[heyjupiter678]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054586

An Angry 'Times-Picayune' Calls for Firing of FEMA Chief and Others in Open Letter to President On Sunday

By E&P Staff

Published: September 04, 2005 10:40 AM ET

NEW YORK The Times-Picayune of New Orleans on Sunday published its third print edition since the hurricane disaster struck, chronicling the arrival, finally, of some relief but also taking President Bush to task for his handling of the crisis, and calling for the firing of FEMA director Michael Brown and others.

In an "open letter" to the president, published on page 15 of the 16-page edition, the paper said it still had grounds for "skepticism" that he would follow through on saving the city and its residents. It pointed out that while the government could not get supplies to the city numerous TV reporters, singer Harry Connick and Times-Picayune staffers managed to find a way in.

It also cited "bald-faced" lies by Michael Brown. "Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach," the staffers pointed out. "We’re angry, Mr. President, and we’ll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry."

Here is the text.

***

We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, "What is not working, we’re going to make it right."

Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.

Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It’s accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.

How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.

Despite the city’s multiple points of entry, our nation’s bureaucrats spent days after last week’s hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city’s stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.

Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.

Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a "Today" show story Friday morning.

Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.

We’re angry, Mr. President, and we’ll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That’s to the government’s shame.

Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don’t know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city’s death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.

It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren’t they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn’t suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?

State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn’t have but two urgent needs: "Buses! And gas!" Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.

In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn’t known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, "We’ve provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they’ve gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day."

Lies don’t get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.

Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, "You’re doing a heck of a job."

That’s unbelievable.

There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.

We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We’re no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.

No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn’t be reached.

Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.

When you do, we will be the first to applaud.


E&P Staff (letters@editorandpublisher)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Ah. Perhaps we should compile a list of things one is not allowed to do within a certain number of days after a disaster, which also needs to be determined. I am sure Josh can help us with this.

Edit: Oops there I go being sarcastic again! But that's the way some of us deal with conflict. In fact one of my friends wrote an interesting article on sarcasm being the weapon especially of women... but I won't get into that. At any rate I do not see why sarcasm is any less legitimate than other means of expressing criticism. In fact I often find it a little more amusing than the other types.

haha! I'm sorry but why is Rice being criticized for going to a broadway play? Broadway should have just shut down totally... :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but if I had tickets to go see...lets say...WICKED...I would be there!

[strandinthewind]

haha! I'm sorry but why is Rice being criticized for going to a broadway play? Broadway should have just shut down totally... :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but if I had tickets to go see...lets say...WICKED...I would be there!

You are not the Sec. of State. In that time period, many countries were calling to offer help, which is what she is suposed to field. Also, what about all hands on deck - W said everyone in the govt. was doing everything they sould :shrug: Finally, if she has nothing to do with this area of govt., then why the hell is she having photo ops there now. Think she wore her $500 + Ferragamos she bought while the govt. she helps run was failing these people; wonder if she really wanted to get them dirty. Better yet, maybe she covered the eyes of a dead baby with her ticket stub from Spamalot or offered that Ferragamo shoe box as a makeshift coffin in a random act of kindness :mad:

to wit:

Rice Tours Hurricane Damage in Alabama

Sunday, September 04, 2005



BAYOU LA BATRE, Ala. — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (search) defended President Bush on Sunday against charges that the government's sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina (search) showed racial insensitivity.

"Nobody, especially the president, would have left people unattended on the basis of race," the administration's highest-ranking black said as she toured damaged parts of her native Alabama.

Later, during a service at the Pilgrim Rest AME Zion church (search) outside Mobile, Rice nodded in agreement as the Rev. Malone Smith Jr. advised the congregation, "Wait for the Lord."

"There are some things the president can do; there are some things the government can do," Smith told about 300 worshippers during a rollicking two-hour service. "But God can do all things. I want you to know he's never late. He's always on time."

Rice later echoed the call for patience.

"The Lord is going to come on time — if we just wait," she said.

It was a sort of homecoming for Rice, an Alabama native and granddaughter of a Presbyterian minister.

Her visit came as some black leaders, including the Rev. Jesse Jackson, have complained bitterly about the slow response to the disaster, whose victims have been disproportionately black and poor. They have said racial injustice was a factor in the government's slow relief effort.

"How can that be the case? Americans don't want to see Americans suffer," Rice said. "Nobody, especially the president, would have left people unattended on the basis of race."

Since Katrina struck, an estimated 70 nations, from Azerbaijan to Venezuela, have offered hundreds of millions in cash donations for the federal government to relay to the American Red Cross, Rice said. Many countries have also donated supplies, ranging from helicopters and medical aid to food and blankets.

Among the largest contributions was Kuwait's $400 million worth of petroleum product plus $100 million in cash intended for relief efforts. Among the smallest: $25,000 in cash from Sri Lanka, a poor nation still recovering from last December's tsunami.

After the church service, Rice visited a community center in Bayou La Batre, one of Alabama's hardest hit areas. Flood waters following Katrina reached 11 feet in some places in southern Alabama, while about 718,000 homes and businesses in Mobile were left without power for days, and at least two people died.

Republican Alabama Gov. Bob Riley, escorting Rice through the community, said power had been restored to all but about 50,000 residents and businesses, while up to 2,500 Alabamians were still looking for shelter.

"It was devastating, but in comparison to what they had in southern Mississippi and Louisiana, it kind of pales in comparison," Riley said.

While welcoming Rice, some Alabamians expressed frustration with the administration's response.

"It's so unfortunate that the time it's taken to rescue them is too long," Democratic state Rep. Yvonne Kennedy said at the church service. "Had the response been more timely, I think we could have saved lives. To be so slow in coming, people lose hope."

While touring domestic disasters falls outside her official domain, Rice told Bush that "if there is anything I can do outside of my responsibilities as secretary of state, I'd be happy to do that, too." She was criticized last week for attending a Broadway show and shopping in New York during an abbreviated vacation.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168440,00.html

[Jessica Leigh]

Low-paying jobs like the one you mentioned aren't enough to survive on. Have you checked the cost of rent lately? Housing is extremely unaffordable, especially in urban areas. Most of their paychecks go to rent, which leaves little money to live on. Additionally, those jobs rarely provide their employees with health insurance.

What they spend it on is between them and their conscience. The conservative mantra of "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't work. I used to buy into that, but if you try do some reading and research, you'll see how flawed the argument is. And by reading, I do not mean Ann Coulter.

some of us actually live like that and have a big problem with people begging us for our money. i'm still waiting to find out what kind of financial aid i'm going to get this semester so i can see if i can afford student health insurance. if not, then i have another semester of driving to mexico for my prescriptions. beer? that would be nice. i'm not giving anyone money for beer unless they return the favor.

[heyjupiter678]

I don't know if this has been posted yet or not -- my apologies if it has -- but everyone should see the video of Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard on this morning's Meet the Press. It's heartbreaking. :distress:

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Broussard.mov
http://www.overspun.com/video/MTP.AaronBroussard.wmv

[Jessica Leigh]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

AMEN!!! thank you Nancy!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

some of us actually live like that and have a big problem with people begging us for our money. i'm still waiting to find out what kind of financial aid i'm going to get this semester so i can see if i can afford student health insurance. if not, then i have another semester of driving to mexico for my prescriptions. beer? that would be nice. i'm not giving anyone money for beer unless they return the favor.

RIGHT ON SISTER!

[strandinthewind]

some of us actually live like that and have a big problem with people begging us for our money. i'm still waiting to find out what kind of financial aid i'm going to get this semester so i can see if i can afford student health insurance. if not, then i have another semester of driving to mexico for my prescriptions. beer? that would be nice. i'm not giving anyone money for beer unless they return the favor.

Well, I think it is a little disingenuous to assume that companies like the Red Cross, when it or they are allowed by FEMA, give people beer istead of food, shelter, medication, etc. :shrug: Thus, even a $5.00 donation to a legit company should allay any fear about the distribution of funds to buy alcohol.

Also, no one faults anyone if they cannot make a donation. Donations are personal things :shrug: Interestingly, taxation in America is a huge way of making donations to the poor and, sadly, others like large corporations, but that is a whole other topic :laugh:

PS. don't get me started on why you have to drive to Mexico to get you medication for less money :mad:

[GateandGarden]

I don't know everything. I think I've made that clear enough. But I do have some level of common sense. And so I cannot believe that people don't see how much more could have been done much earlier. I'd like to focus on how wonderful it is that so many people are okay but thousands of people aren't!

I'm actually there, more so than pretty much everyone on here, am I right? I've seen many of the things that others have only read about. No, that doesn't make me better than anyone or anything of the sort; I just happen to be practically in the middle of it without actually being in it. It's just plain to me that more should have been done. It just blows my mind that someone would say otherwise. :shrug:

Another thing about people who didn't leave, whether they could or did not have the means--this is Louisiana. It's like hurricane central here. It seems like we're told all the time that "this is gonna be the big one" and it never is. People have been hearing that all their lives. Is it such a shock that a lot of people would have considered this one another false alarm?

[Jessica Leigh]

Well, I think it is a little disingenuous to assume that companies like the Red Cross, when it or they are allowed by FEMA, give people beer istead of food, shelter, medication, etc. :shrug: Thus, even a $5.00 donation to a legit company should allay any fear about the distribution of funds to buy alcohol.

Also, no one faults anyone if they cannot make a donation. Donations are personal things :shrug: Interestingly, taxation in America is a huge way of making donations to the poor and, sadly, others like large corporations, but that is a whole other topic :laugh:

PS. don't get me started on why you have to drive to Mexico to get you medication for less money :mad:

no sweetie i was talking about the homeless people discussion from many pages ago. i've already donated to red cross for the hurricane (they even gave me a cool visor that says "save the south" ) :)

[strandinthewind]

no sweetie i was talking about the homeless people discussion from many pages ago. i've already donated to red cross for the hurricane (they even gave me a cool visor that says "save the south" ) :)


:sorry: :sorry: :sorry: :sorry: - its hard to keep up :cool:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

I don't know everything. I think I've made that clear enough. But I do have some level of common sense. And so I cannot believe that people don't see how much more could have been done much earlier. I'd like to focus on how wonderful it is that so many people are okay but thousands of people aren't!

I'm actually there, more so than pretty much everyone on here, am I right? I've seen many of the things that others have only read about. No, that doesn't make me better than anyone or anything of the sort; I just happen to be practically in the middle of it without actually being in it. It's just plain to me that more should have been done. It just blows my mind that someone would say otherwise. :shrug:

Another thing about people who didn't leave, whether they could or did not have the means--this is Louisiana. It's like hurricane central here. It seems like we're told all the time that "this is gonna be the big one" and it never is. People have been hearing that all their lives. Is it such a shock that a lot of people would have considered this one another false alarm?

Great post! I agree about the false alarm thing. I live in North Carolina which is the most heavy hit state by hurricanes, next to Florida! They always tell us it is going to be REALLY BAD!

[strandinthewind]

Great post! I agree about the false alarm thing. I live in North Carolina which is the most heavy hit state by hurricanes, next to Florida! They always tell us it is going to be REALLY BAD!

. . . and if FEMA had an evacuation plan that took years to develop and they inexplicably stopped implementing that plan for five days - I hope you are able to chalk it up to "let's focus on the positive."

[Jessica Leigh]

:sorry: :sorry: :sorry: :sorry: - its hard to keep up :cool:

it's ok... i know it's hard to keep up... i'm slow in responding to things on weekends- i work all weekend and most of you have weekends off so your conversations move so fast!

[strandinthewind]

September 4, 2005
What Happens to a Race Deferred
By JASON DePARLE
WASHINGTON

THE white people got out. Most of them, anyway. If television and newspaper images can be deemed a statistical sample, it was mostly black people who were left behind. Poor black people, growing more hungry, sick and frightened by the hour as faraway officials counseled patience and warned that rescues take time.

What a shocked world saw exposed in New Orleans last week wasn't just a broken levee. It was a cleavage of race and class, at once familiar and startlingly new, laid bare in a setting where they suddenly amounted to matters of life and death. Hydrology joined sociology throughout the story line, from the settling of the flood-prone city, where well-to-do white people lived on the high ground, to its frantic abandonment.

The pictures of the suffering vied with reports of marauding, of gunshots fired at rescue vehicles and armed bands taking over the streets. The city of quaint eccentricity - of King Cakes, Mardi Gras beads and nice neighbors named Tookie - had taken a Conradian turn.

In the middle of the delayed rescue, the New Orleans mayor, C.Ray Nagin, a local boy made good from a poor, black ward, burst into tears of frustration as he denounced slow moving federal officials and called for martial law.

Even people who had spent a lifetime studying race and class found themselves slack-jawed.

"This is a pretty graphic illustration of who gets left behind in this society - in a literal way," said Christopher Jencks, a sociologist glued to the televised images from his office at Harvard. Surprised to have found himself surprised, Mr. Jencks took to thinking out loud. "Maybe it's just an in-the-face version of something I already knew," he said. "All the people who don't get out, or don't have the resources, or don't believe the warning are African-American."

"It's not that it's at odds with the way I see American society," Mr. Jencks said. "But it's at odds with the way I want to see American society."

Last week it was how others saw American society, too, in images beamed across the globe. Were it not for the distinctive outlines of the Superdome, the pictures of hovering rescue helicopters might have carried a Somalian dateline. The Sri Lankan ambassador offered to help raise foreign aid.

Anyone who knew New Orleans knew that danger lurked behind the festive front. Let the good times roll, the tourists on Bourbon Street were told. Yet in every season, someone who rolled a few blocks in the wrong direction wound up in the city morgue.

Unusually poor ( 27.4 percent below the poverty line in 2000), disproportionately black (over two-thirds), the Big Easy is also disproportionately murderous - with a rate that was for years among the country's highest.

Once one of the most mixed societies, in recent decades, the city has become unusually segregated, and the white middle class is all but gone, moved north across Lake Pontchartrain or west to Jefferson Parish - home of David Duke, the one-time Klansman who ran for governor in 1991 and won more than half of the state's white vote.

Shortly after I arrived in town two decades ago as a fledgling reporter, I was dispatched to cover a cheerleading tryout, and I asked a grinning, half-drunk accountant where he was from, city or suburb. "White people don't live in New Orleans," he answered with a where-have-you-been disdain.

For those who loved it, its glories as well as its flaws, last week brought only heartbreak. So much of New Orleans, from its music and its food to its architecture, had shown a rainbow society at its best, even as everyone knew it was more complicated than that.

"New Orleans, first of all, is both in reality and in rhetoric an extraordinarily successful multicultural society," said Philip Carter, a developer and retired journalist whose roots in the city extend back more at least four generations. "But is also a multicultural society riven by race and class, and all this has been exposed by these stormy days. The people of our community are pitted against each other across the barricades of race and class that six months from now may be last remaining levees in New Orleans."

No one was immune, of course. With 80 percent of the city under water, tragedy swallowed the privilege and poor, and traveled spread across racial lines.

But the divides in the city were evident in things as simple as access to a car. The 35 percent of black households that didn't have one, compared with just 15 percent among whites.

"The evacuation plan was really based on people driving out," said Craig E. Colten, a geologist at Louisiana State University and an expert on the city's vulnerable topography. "They didn't have buses. They didn't have trains."

As if to punctuate the divide, the water especially devastated the Ninth Ward, among city's poorest and lowest lying.

"Out West, there is a saying that water flows to money," Mr. Colten said. "But in New Orleans, water flows away from money. Those with resources who control where the drainage goes have always chosen to live on the high ground. So the people in the low areas were hardest hit."

Outrage grew as the week wore on, among black politicians who saw the tragedy as a reflection of a broader neglect of American cities, and in the blogosphere.

"The real reason no one is helping is because of the color of these people!" wrote "myfan88" on the Flickr blog. "This is Hotel Rwanda all over again."

"Is this what the pioneers of the civil rights movement fought to achieve, a society where many black people are as trapped and isolated by their poverty as they were by legal segregation laws?" wrote Mark Naison, director of the urban studies program at Fordham, on another blog.

One question that could not be answered last week was whether, put to a similar test, other cities would fracture along the same lines.

AT one level, everything about New Orleans appears sui generis, not least its location below sea level. Many New Orleanians don't just accept the jokes about living in a Banana Republic. They spread them.

But in a quieter catastrophe, the 1995 heat wave that killed hundreds of Chicagoans, blacks in comparable age groups as whites died at higher rates - in part because they tended to live in greater social isolation, in depopulated parts of town. As in New Orleans, space intertwined with race.

And the violence? Similarly shocking scenes had erupted in Los Angeles in 1992, after the acquittal of white police officers charged with beating a black man, Rodney King. Newark, Detroit, Washington -all burned in the race riots of the 1960's. It was for residents of any major city, watching the mayhem, to feel certain their community would be immune.

With months still to go just to pump out the water that covers the city, no one can be sure how the social fault lines will rearrange. But with white flight a defining element of New Orleans in the recent past, there was already the fear in the air this week that the breached levee would leave a separated society further apart.

``Maybe we can build the levees back," said Mr. Carter. ``But that sense of extreme division by class and race is going to long survive the physical reconstruction of New Orleans."


www.nytimes.com

[Brwn_eyes0511]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/p3chrmd/capt.jpg

hmmm....

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

[gldstwmn]

Did you see the interview on Meet the Press with the Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, La.? He broke down while telling NBC's Tim Russert the story of the death of the mother of one of the parish’s employees.

Go to www.msnbc.com and click on Video: She Drowned Friday Night.

So very sad. :(

I saw that.
On Monday: "Don't worry Mama we're coming."
On Tuesday:"Don't worry Mama we're coming."
On Wednesday:"Don't worry Mama we're coming."
On Thursday:"Don't worry Mama we're coming."
On Friday:"Don't worry Mama we're coming."

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/sad/mecry.gif

[gldstwmn]

And I find it disgusting how everybody seems more eager to find someone to blame and condemn than to focus on the positives that people are getting saved and helped. It frustrates me that people like you believe they have the answers to everything, and therefore self-righteously going around proclaiming it. Did you read the answers about buses posted earlier? Guess what. It's not as simple as you'd like to think and maybe someone needs to tell you that. Sorry if you don't like it.

Your president is incompetent. Sorry if you don't like it.

[gldstwmn]

We all will pay for this too. Watch how our insurance goes up and gas will go up more.

:nod: :nod: :nod: Driving in America is going to become passe'.

[Jessica Leigh]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/p3chrmd/capt.jpg

hmmm....

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

people were hiding in their homes from police officers knocking on doors trying to evacuate people. i don't believe that everyone could have been saved and taken to safe places but i do believe that efforts were made to help people who were too poor to help themselves. there were many people who chose to stay- I'm sure Fats Domino, for example, had the financial means to flee... but he chose to stay. this is not completely a separation of poor v. not poor or black v. white.

(before anyone jumps on my back i want to say that i'm only referring to the evacuation process, not how quickly or not quickly aid was sent)

[Brwn_eyes0511]

The ugly truth

Why we couldn’t save the people of New Orleans

Bubbling up from the flood that destroyed New Orleans are images, beamed around the world, of America's original and continuing sin: the shabby, contemptuous treatment this country metes out, decade after decade, to poor people in general and the descendants of African slaves in particular. The world sees New Orleans burning and dying today, but the televised anarchy - the shooting and looting, needless deaths, helpless rage and maddening governmental incompetence - was centuries in the making.

To the casual viewer, the situation is an incomprehensible mess that raises questions about the intelligence, sanity and moral worth of those trapped in the city. Why didn't those people evacuate before the hurricane? Why don't they just walk out of town now? And why should anyone care about people who are stealing and fighting the police?

That hard, unsympathetic view is the traditional American response to the poverty, ignorance and rage that afflict many of us whose great-great-grandparents once made up the captive African slave labor pool. In far too many cities, including New Orleans, the marching orders on the front lines of American race relations are to control and contain the very poor in ghettos as cheaply as possible; ignore them completely if possible; and call in the troops if the brutes get out of line.

By almost every statistical measure, New Orleans is a bad place to be poor. Half the city's households make less than $28,000 a year, and 28% of the population lives in poverty.

In the late 1990s, the state's school systems ranked dead last in the nation in the number of computers per student (1 per 88), and Louisiana has the nation's second-highest percentage of adults who never finished high school. By the state's own measure, 47% of the public schools in New Orleans rank as "academically unacceptable."

And Louisiana is the only one of the 50 states where the state legislature doesn't allocate money to pay for the legal defense of indigent defendants. The Associated Press reported this year that it's not unusual for poor people charged with crimes to stay in jail for nine months before getting a lawyer appointed.

These government failures are not merely a matter of incompetence. Louisiana and New Orleans have a long, well-known reputation for corruption: as former congressman Billy Tauzin once put it, "half of Louisiana is under water and the other half is under indictment."

That's putting it mildly. Adjusted for population size, the state ranks third in the number of elected officials convicted of crimes (Mississippi is No. 1). Recent scandals include the conviction of 14 state judges and an FBI raid on the business and personal files of a Louisiana congressman.

In 1991, a notoriously corrupt Democrat named Edwin Edwards ran for governor against Republican David Duke, a former head of the Ku Klux Klan. Edwards, whose winning campaign included bumper stickers saying "Elect the Crook," is currently serving a 10-year prison sentence for taking bribes from casino owners. Duke recently completed his own prison term for tax fraud.

The rot included the New Orleans Police Department, which in the 1990s had the dubious distinction of being the nation's most corrupt police force and the least effective: the city had the highest murder rate in America. More than 50 officers were eventually convicted of crimes including murder, rape and robbery; two are currently on Death Row.

The decision to subject an entire population to poverty, ignorance, injustice and government corruption as a way of life has its ugly moments, as the world is now seeing. New Orleans officials issued an almost cynical evacuation order in a city where they know full well that thousands have no car, no money for airfare or an interstate bus, no credit cards for hotels, and therefore no way to leave town before the deadly storm and flood arrived.

The authorities provided no transportation out of the danger zone, apparently figuring the neglected thousands would somehow weather the storm in their uninsured, low-lying shacks and public housing projects. The poor were expected to remain invisible at the bottom of the pecking order and somehow weather the storm.

But the flood confounded the plan, and the world began to see a tide of human misery rising from the water - ragged, sick, desperate and disorderly. Some foraged for food, some took advantage of the chaos to commit crimes. All in all, they acted exactly the way you could predict people would act who have been locked up in a ghetto for generations.

The world also saw the breezy indifference with which government officials treated these tens of thousands of sick and dying citizens, even as the scope of the disaster became clear. President Bush initially shunned the Gulf Coast and headed to political fund-raisers in the West.

That left matters in the bumbling hands of the director of emergency management, Michael Brown, who ranks No. 1 on the list of officials who ought to be fired when the crisis has passed. Even as local officials were publicly reporting assaults, fires and bedlam at local hospitals, Brown took to the airwaves to declare that "things are going well" as mayhem engulfed the city. When asked about the rising death toll, Brown attributed it to "people who did not heed the advance warnings." Brown's smug ignorance of the conditions of the place he was tasked to save became the final door slammed on the trap that tens of thousands of the city's poorest found themselves.

The challenge for America is to remember the faces of the evacuees who will surely be ushered back into a black hole of public indifference as soon as the White House and local officials can manage it. While pledging ourselves to remember their mistreatment and fight for their cause, we should also be sure to cast a searching, skeptical eye on the money that Bush has pledged for rebuilding.

Ten billion dollars are about to pass into the sticky hands of politicians in the No. 1 and No. 3 most corrupt states in America. Worried about looting? You ain't seen nothing yet.



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/343324p-292991c.html

[Brwn_eyes0511]

people were hiding in their homes from police officers knocking on doors trying to evacuate people. i don't believe that everyone could have been saved and taken to safe places but i do believe that efforts were made to help people who were too poor to help themselves. there were many people who chose to stay- I'm sure Fats Domino, for example, had the financial means to flee... but he chose to stay. this is not completely a separation of poor v. not poor or black v. white.

(before anyone jumps on my back i want to say that i'm only referring to the evacuation process, not how quickly or not quickly aid was sent)

Oh I agree...

I'm just simply saying hey mr. mayor...why didn't you send out the buses to try and evacuate the people? Just tired of all the blame being placed on one individual that was already despised by the left...

[gldstwmn]

No, I'm referring to Condi Rice and Hastert.

You mean the Speaker Of The House and the Secretary Of State?
/sarcasm

[strandinthewind]

If you want to read politico CR*P - read this and FEMA's BS :rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/

Notice how he has no answers for Russert's questions about knowing. Notice how the MS Gov. flat out lies when he paints a rosy picture of his state, when thousands there had no food or water for days.

This is so much BS that it is hard to take.

Then, when people say things like don't comment negatively because we should focus on the positive, I just cringe because I know that is a talking point that spells cover up, and I cannot let that happen, not this time.

Finally, can anyone point to anything good W has done - and by good, I mean the entire thing. He often, as here, has a good beginning, but fails to follow through and it pisses me off because innocent people die when he screws up and people are like oh well, at least he acted in some manner.

[gldstwmn]

If anyone reads the article Heather just posted, it seems glaringly obvious why everything went down as it did.

And there are about 1000 other articles that support everything Strandie asserted in his post.

[gldstwmn]

Rice adovcates bulldozing New Orleans? I hadn't read that.

No Hastert did.

[strandinthewind]

Oh I agree...

I'm just simply saying hey mr. mayor...why didn't you send out the buses to try and evacuate the people? Just tired of all the blame being placed on one individual that was already despised by the left...

FEMA had control of NOLA as of Sunday. Why didn't they do that? I'll tell you why (for like the third time) - FEMA and the state agreed that the dome could be used as a temp shelter and it was and with success. That does not support your argument, which once again, is not supported by any facts and is a blatant attempt to spin any fault from W. BTW - as long as you are assinging fault now as opposed to the other day, let's hear you analysis of W's actions in this situation. Please stick to the facts.

[strandinthewind]

The ugly truth

Why we couldn’t save the people of New Orleans

Bubbling up from the flood that destroyed New Orleans are images, beamed around the world, of America's original and continuing sin: the shabby, contemptuous treatment this country metes out, decade after decade, to poor people in general and the descendants of African slaves in particular. The world sees New Orleans burning and dying today, but the televised anarchy - the shooting and looting, needless deaths, helpless rage and maddening governmental incompetence - was centuries in the making.

To the casual viewer, the situation is an incomprehensible mess that raises questions about the intelligence, sanity and moral worth of those trapped in the city. Why didn't those people evacuate before the hurricane? Why don't they just walk out of town now? And why should anyone care about people who are stealing and fighting the police?

That hard, unsympathetic view is the traditional American response to the poverty, ignorance and rage that afflict many of us whose great-great-grandparents once made up the captive African slave labor pool. In far too many cities, including New Orleans, the marching orders on the front lines of American race relations are to control and contain the very poor in ghettos as cheaply as possible; ignore them completely if possible; and call in the troops if the brutes get out of line.

By almost every statistical measure, New Orleans is a bad place to be poor. Half the city's households make less than $28,000 a year, and 28% of the population lives in poverty.

In the late 1990s, the state's school systems ranked dead last in the nation in the number of computers per student (1 per 88), and Louisiana has the nation's second-highest percentage of adults who never finished high school. By the state's own measure, 47% of the public schools in New Orleans rank as "academically unacceptable."

And Louisiana is the only one of the 50 states where the state legislature doesn't allocate money to pay for the legal defense of indigent defendants. The Associated Press reported this year that it's not unusual for poor people charged with crimes to stay in jail for nine months before getting a lawyer appointed.

These government failures are not merely a matter of incompetence. Louisiana and New Orleans have a long, well-known reputation for corruption: as former congressman Billy Tauzin once put it, "half of Louisiana is under water and the other half is under indictment."

That's putting it mildly. Adjusted for population size, the state ranks third in the number of elected officials convicted of crimes (Mississippi is No. 1). Recent scandals include the conviction of 14 state judges and an FBI raid on the business and personal files of a Louisiana congressman.

In 1991, a notoriously corrupt Democrat named Edwin Edwards ran for governor against Republican David Duke, a former head of the Ku Klux Klan. Edwards, whose winning campaign included bumper stickers saying "Elect the Crook," is currently serving a 10-year prison sentence for taking bribes from casino owners. Duke recently completed his own prison term for tax fraud.

The rot included the New Orleans Police Department, which in the 1990s had the dubious distinction of being the nation's most corrupt police force and the least effective: the city had the highest murder rate in America. More than 50 officers were eventually convicted of crimes including murder, rape and robbery; two are currently on Death Row.

The decision to subject an entire population to poverty, ignorance, injustice and government corruption as a way of life has its ugly moments, as the world is now seeing. New Orleans officials issued an almost cynical evacuation order in a city where they know full well that thousands have no car, no money for airfare or an interstate bus, no credit cards for hotels, and therefore no way to leave town before the deadly storm and flood arrived.

The authorities provided no transportation out of the danger zone, apparently figuring the neglected thousands would somehow weather the storm in their uninsured, low-lying shacks and public housing projects. The poor were expected to remain invisible at the bottom of the pecking order and somehow weather the storm.

But the flood confounded the plan, and the world began to see a tide of human misery rising from the water - ragged, sick, desperate and disorderly. Some foraged for food, some took advantage of the chaos to commit crimes. All in all, they acted exactly the way you could predict people would act who have been locked up in a ghetto for generations.

The world also saw the breezy indifference with which government officials treated these tens of thousands of sick and dying citizens, even as the scope of the disaster became clear. President Bush initially shunned the Gulf Coast and headed to political fund-raisers in the West.

That left matters in the bumbling hands of the director of emergency management, Michael Brown, who ranks No. 1 on the list of officials who ought to be fired when the crisis has passed. Even as local officials were publicly reporting assaults, fires and bedlam at local hospitals, Brown took to the airwaves to declare that "things are going well" as mayhem engulfed the city. When asked about the rising death toll, Brown attributed it to "people who did not heed the advance warnings." Brown's smug ignorance of the conditions of the place he was tasked to save became the final door slammed on the trap that tens of thousands of the city's poorest found themselves.

The challenge for America is to remember the faces of the evacuees who will surely be ushered back into a black hole of public indifference as soon as the White House and local officials can manage it. While pledging ourselves to remember their mistreatment and fight for their cause, we should also be sure to cast a searching, skeptical eye on the money that Bush has pledged for rebuilding.

Ten billion dollars are about to pass into the sticky hands of politicians in the No. 1 and No. 3 most corrupt states in America. Worried about looting? You ain't seen nothing yet.



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/343324p-292991c.html

Interestingly, the No. 1 member of the No. 1 most corrupt political family is writing the check. How about them apples :rolleyes:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

FEMA had control of NOLA as of Sunday. Why didn't they do that? I'll tell you why (for like the third time) - FEMA and the state agreed that the dome could be used as a temp shelter and it was and with success. That does not support your argument, which once again, is not supported by any facts and is a blatant attempt to spin any fault from W. BTW - as long as you are assinging fault now as opposed to the other day, let's hear you analysis of W's actions in this situation. Please stick to the facts.

Well them shame on NOLA and the state for not reading their own damn evacuation plan and not realizing what was in front of their face...

poor damn buses!

[gldstwmn]

If Harry Connick Jr. and Charmaine Neville can drive right on in there to help people... :shrug:

Charmaine Neville drove an abandoned city bus, for god's sake. :(

[strandinthewind]

people were hiding in their homes from police officers knocking on doors trying to evacuate people. i don't believe that everyone could have been saved and taken to safe places but i do believe that efforts were made to help people who were too poor to help themselves. there were many people who chose to stay- I'm sure Fats Domino, for example, had the financial means to flee... but he chose to stay. this is not completely a separation of poor v. not poor or black v. white.

(before anyone jumps on my back i want to say that i'm only referring to the evacuation process, not how quickly or not quickly aid was sent)

Most def. Any able bodied person who had means to escape and did not ought to be fined and then sent back to shovel the shiitte our of the shelters.

Sadly, Orleans and St. Bernard Parishes are mostly populated with poor black people. The majority of white people left decades ago - though some returned in the 90's.

[strandinthewind]

Well them shame on NOLA and the state for not reading their own damn evacuation plan and not realizing what was in front of their face...

poor damn buses!

No, shame on FMEA - are you being anatgonistic or are you just not getting that FEMA, not the state, is responsible here. Because you are making no sense when when you try to tag it back to the state.

Interestingly, if you want to incorrecntly tag it back to the state, then let's hear you rip the GOP Gov. of MS a new one because he did not enforce the evacuation of the lower part of his state.

[gldstwmn]

Ya'll gonna love this . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9206991/

Some evacuees see religious message in Katrina
Across three states, survivors weigh links among faith, sin and the storm



People who have nothing left have to have some kind of hope to hold on to.

[strandinthewind]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/p3chrmd/capt.jpg

hmmm....

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

that plan, assuming you quoted the correct one as no site is given, assumes the poor and unable will be temporarily sheltered in the Dome or did you not read that far?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Judging by that you're the one sitting in the comfort of your home

Yes, and you are out there...oh wait no you're not! silly me :o

[estranged4life]

some of the citizens from NOLA (Just escaped there this Friday) who were brought to Camp Gruber here in Oklahoma (Camp Gruber is a National Guard installment that will be closed in the very near future)...Where a couple have died.

Sad...They escaped the BS there to only die here.

Utter hell...

[Mad4stevie]

A rescue helicopter just crashed in NOLA.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Interestingly, if you want to incorrecntly tag it back to the state, then let's hear you rip the GOP Gov. of MS a new one because he did not enforce the evacuation of the lower part of his state.

Well then shame on him too...But I don't place all the blame on him

The point is...I see you keep pointing fingers...and I feel sorry for the d*mn fools who are in your sights! Jesus, who would have any clue of the epic this storm turned out to be and the chaos it left behind? Calling Ms. Cleo...

Catagory 5...true. Evil monster Catagory 5 which killed thousands...who would have known?

So I'm not going to point fingers at the Gov. of MS or any single person...sh*t happens and now we have to deal with what is left behind.

If you REALLY want to place blame...let's put it on those damn fools who decided it would be cool to build a major city in a fish bowl!!!

[estranged4life]

A rescue helicopter just crashed in NOLA.

A US Coast Guard helicopter too...Damn!

The crew possibly survived!!!

[Mad4stevie]

A US Coast Guard helicopter too...Damn!

The crew possibly survived!!!

The pilots are ok, according to MSNBC.

But they are saying that it was SHOT DOWN.

[Mad4stevie]

Who the hell are all these gunmen shooting at contractors and rescue helicopters??? :mad:

[gldstwmn]

A rescue helicopter just crashed in NOLA.

The crew made it out okay.

[gldstwmn]

The pilots are ok, according to MSNBC.

But they are saying that it was SHOT DOWN.
It wasn't shot down.

[gldstwmn]

Who the hell are all these gunmen shooting at contractors and rescue helicopters??? :mad:

There's something real fishy about these reports. We're bound to hear a lot of things that are miscommunications, like when they said 50% of the police force deserted. Not true.

[gldstwmn]

Can anyone confirm that 51 oil rigs are missing in the Gulf? :shocked:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yes, I live on the other side of the world, it's a little hard for me to get "out there". Slow one, let me explain it again. The point was her statement that people are complaining from the comfort of their homes. Atleast the people stating all the outrage are getting a sense of what it's like. It seems to me her home is so comfortable and protected she can't comprehend how it is possible that these people are not protected by the federal administration.

I know exactly where you live...therefore my sarcastic remarks before apply.

[GypsySorcerer]

Can anyone confirm that 51 oil rigs are missing in the Gulf? :shocked:
:shocked: I haven't seen that.

[Mad4stevie]

It wasn't shot down.

I hope that you are right; that is what they are reporting on MSNBC.

[gldstwmn]

I hope that you are right; that is what they are reporting on MSNBC.

I know. CNN is reporting differently.

[gldstwmn]

<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050905/i/r3708841167.jpg">

Revelers walk through the French Quarter of New Orleans, Louisiana, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina September 4, 2005. Efforts to evacuate the remainder of New Orleans' weary population met with some resistance on Sunday as residents in areas less affected by Hurricane Katrina refused to leave their homes and businesses.

[strandinthewind]

Who the hell are all these gunmen shooting at contractors and rescue helicopters??? :mad:

Well, from the people I know who have been there and been shot at, they are a combination of thugs and people in their houses scared of thugs, etc. I mean if the first two boats to your house were rapist and then you see the thrid :shrug: There are also just sick people who support anarchy. But, I know from people who were there that shots were being fired, at least as of early Thurs.

[Nixxxed]

Well then shame on him too...But I don't place all the blame on him

The point is...I see you keep pointing fingers...and I feel sorry for the d*mn fools who are in your sights! Jesus, who would have any clue of the epic this storm turned out to be and the chaos it left behind? Calling Ms. Cleo...

Catagory 5...true. Evil monster Catagory 5 which killed thousands...who would have known?

So I'm not going to point fingers at the Gov. of MS or any single person...sh*t happens and now we have to deal with what is left behind.

If you REALLY want to place blame...let's put it on those damn fools who decided it would be cool to build a major city in a fish bowl!!!
Let's blame the people who built NO in a fish bowl? :rolleyes:

Go back and read the editorial by the Times-Picayune earlier in this thread about why NO was built where it was. And then study some geology. The ground on which NO was built sank because it was built on soft soils deposited by the Mississippi River, which was diverted and dammed and modified for flood control and cheaper shipping concerns. If the river had been left alone, the city would have been destroyed, but the floods would have replenished the soil and rebuilt the level of the ground.

Damn those people in the 1700s and their lack of sophisticated 20th Century geological knowledge!!!

[GateandGarden]

If you REALLY want to place blame...let's put it on those damn fools who decided it would be cool to build a major city in a fish bowl!!!Yes, and I forgot to say much much earlier than now that I'm going to do whatever is the cyber equivalent of screaming the next time someone says something like this.

[Nixxxed]

that plan, assuming you quoted the correct one as no site is given, assumes the poor and unable will be temporarily sheltered in the Dome or did you not read that far?
Not to mention the paragraph posted (out of context) says buses "may be used". That's a big difference between "must be used" or "should be used".

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Not to mention the paragraph posted (out of context) says buses "may be used". That's a big difference between "must be used" or "should be used".

Regardless if it said the buses "may be used" or "should be used" that is really not the point is it? In a state of emergency it says "may be used"...so therefore they should have been...right? If the said buses were avaliable then shouldn't they have been used...I'm not understanding your logic on this one.

[gldstwmn]

FEMA caught trying to cut phone lines in Jefferson Parrish.

Video link:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Broussard.wmv

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Yes, and I forgot to say much much earlier than now that I'm going to do whatever is the cyber equivalent of screaming the next time someone says something like this.

Sorry...I was just being a little sarcastic with that remark. I just see all the pointless finger pointing going on...so I thought I would do a little bit of it myself!

[gldstwmn]

I just see all the pointless finger pointing going on

Do you believe in accountablility?

[strandinthewind]

Regardless if it said the buses "may be used" or "should be used" that is really not the point is it? In a state of emergency it says "may be used"...so therefore they should have been...right? If the said buses were avaliable then shouldn't they have been used...I'm not understanding your logic on this one.

It is a little ironic that you are pointing to reality when you refuse even to admit the Fed. Govt. through FEMA is/was responsible for the deaths of thousands by:

taking five days or more to bring these poor people food and water and

denying hundreds of others the opportunity to do it before then.

I mean you point fingers at everyone else, but hypocritically refuse to do so with W and instead say you do not want to place blame of point fingers :rolleyes:

[Nixxxed]

Regardless if it said the buses "may be used" or "should be used" that is really not the point is it? In a state of emergency it says "may be used"...so therefore they should have been...right? If the said buses were avaliable then shouldn't they have been used...I'm not understanding your logic on this one.
The logic is that "may be used" gives permission for the buses to be used by the governing authority of the crisis. And Strand has already posted the proof that FEMA was given control on Sunday.

And it's really a moot point anyway - see my post about the buses earlier, and Strand's showing they would only have been evacuated elsewhere in the city. Regardless, FEMA did none of these.

[irishgrl]

the sad thing is, this could have been prevented:


Flood of regret...waves of anger
Blueprint to save New Orleans was created but never realized
By MARK FISCHETTI

THE deaths caused by Hurricane Katrina are heart-rending. The suffering of survivors is wrenching. Property destruction is shocking. But perhaps the most agonizing part is that much of what happened in New Orleans this week might have been avoided.

Watching the TV images of the storm approaching the Mississippi Delta on last Sunday, I was sick to my stomach. Not only because I knew the hell it could unleash (I wrote an article for Scientific American in 2001 that described the very situation that was unfolding) but because I knew that a large-scale engineering plan called Coast 2050 — developed in 1998 by scientists, Army engineers, metropolitan planners and Louisiana officials — might have helped save the city, but had gone unrealized.

The debate over New Orleans' vulnerability to hurricanes has raged for a century. By the late 1990s, scientists at Louisiana State University and the University of New Orleans had perfected computer models showing exactly how a sea surge would overwhelm the levee system, and had recommended a set of solutions. The Army Corps of Engineers, which built the levees, had proposed different projects.

Yet some scientists reflexively disregarded practical considerations pointed out by the Army engineers; more often, the engineers scoffed at scientific studies indicating that the basic facts of geology and hydrology meant that significant design changes were needed.

Meanwhile, local politicians lobbied Congress for financing for myriad special interest groups, from oil companies to oyster farmers. Congress did not hear a unified voice, making it easier to turn a deaf ear.

Fed up with the splintered efforts, Len Bahr, then the head of the Louisiana Governor's Office of Coastal Activities, somehow dragged all the parties to one table in 1998 and got them to agree on a coordinated solution: Coast 2050. Completing every recommended project over a decade or more would have cost an estimated $14 billion, so Louisiana turned to the federal government.

While this may seem an astronomical sum, it isn't, in terms of large public works; in 2000 Congress began a $7 billion engineering program to refresh the dying Florida Everglades. But Congress had other priorities, Louisiana politicians had other priorities, and the magic moment of consensus was lost.

Thus, in true American fashion, we ignored an inevitable problem until disaster focused our attention. Fortunately, as we rebuild New Orleans, we can protect it — by engineering solutions that work with nature, not against it. The conceit that we can control the natural world is what made New Orleans vulnerable. For more than a century the Army Corps, with Congress' blessing, leveed the Mississippi River to prevent its annual floods, so that farms and industries could expand along its banks.

Those same floods, however, had dumped huge amounts of sediment and freshwater across the Mississippi Delta, rebuilding each year what Gulf tides and storms had worn away and holding back infusions of saltwater that kill marsh vegetation. These vast delta wetlands created a lush, hardy buffer that could absorb sea surges and weaken high winds.

The flooding at the river's mouth also sent great volumes of sediment west and east into the Gulf of Mexico, to a string of barrier islands that cut down surges and waves, compensating for regular ocean erosion. Stopping the Mississippi's floods starved the wetlands and the islands; both are rapidly disintegrating, leaving the city naked against the sea.

What can we do to restore these natural protections? Although the parties that devised Coast 2050, and other independent scientists and engineers who have floated rival plans, may disagree on details, they do concur on several major initiatives that would shield New Orleans, reconstitute the delta and, as a side benefit, improve ports and shipping lanes for the oil and natural gas industries in the Gulf of Mexico.

• Cut several channels in the levees on the Mississippi River's southern bank (the side that doesn't abut the city) and secure them with powerful floodgates that could be opened at certain times of the year to allow sediment and freshwater to flow down into the delta, re-establishing it.
• Build a new navigation channel from the Gulf into the Mississippi, about 40 miles south of New Orleans, so ships don't have to enter the river at its three southernmost tips 30 miles further away.
For decades the Corps has dredged shipping channels along those final miles to keep them navigable, creating underwater chutes that propel river sediment out into the deep ocean. The dredging could then be stopped, the river mouth would fill in naturally and sediment would again spill to the barrier islands, lengthening and widening them. Some planners also propose a modern port at the new access point that would replace those along the river that are too shallow to handle the huge new ships now being built worldwide.

• Erect huge seagates across the pair of narrow straits that connect the eastern edge of Lake Pontchartrain, north of the city, to the Gulf. Now, any hurricane that blows in from the south will push a wall of water through these straits into the huge lake, which in turn will threaten to overflow into the city.
That is what has filled the bowl that is New Orleans this past week. But seagates at the straits can stop the wall of water from flowing in. The Netherlands has built similar gates to hold back the turbulent North Sea and they work splendidly.

•Finally, and most obviously, raise, extend and strengthen the city's existing but aging levees, canal walls and pumping systems that worked so poorly in recent days.
It's hard to say how much of this work could have been completed by today had Coast 2050 become a reality. Certainly, the delta wetlands and barrier islands would not have rebounded substantially yet.

But undoubtedly progress would have been made that would have spared someone's life, someone's home, some jazz club or gumbo joint, some city district, some part of the region's unique culture that the entire country revels in. And we would have been well on our way to a long-term solution.

For there is one thing we know for sure: Hurricanes will howl through the Mississippi Delta again.

Fischetti, based in Lenox, Mass., is a contributing editor to Scientific American magazine.

[Mad4stevie]

MSNBC is replaying Meet the Press right now. It is a must see!

[Brwn_eyes0511]

FEMA caught trying to cut phone lines in Jefferson Parrish.

Video link:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Broussard.wmv

attention attention moderators...

Thread deletion please, very biased website!!!

oops, I forgot to whom I was speaking.

Sorry I know that's old news, but I just had to! :xoxo:

[gldstwmn]

attention attention moderators...

Thread deletion please, very biased website!!!



It doesn't link to any web site. It is a video link to Meet The Press, hosted by Tim Russert on NBC.

[Moony]

attention attention moderators...

Thread deletion please, very biased website!!!

oops, I forgot to whom I was speaking.

Sorry I know that's old news, but I just had to! :xoxo:
Your wit is astounding.

[Mad4stevie]

Wow - two NOLA police officers have committed suicide and 200 have walked off the job. :eek:

[dissention]

They've continually had plenty of guns to send, just not stretchers and food. I've caught up with the Australian media here and this is one thing that causing disbelief, the American mentality of getting gunmen down there. They have people down there to kill but not to feed, it's......I don't understand.

They have shoot-to-kill orders. It makes my stomach weak.

[dissention]

Can anyone confirm that 51 oil rigs are missing in the Gulf? :shocked:

Christ. I watch Celebrity Fit Club to escape this horror for an hour and there are now 51 oil rigs missing? :shocked:

[dissention]

attention attention moderators...

Thread deletion please, very biased website!!!

oops, I forgot to whom I was speaking.

Sorry I know that's old news, but I just had to! :xoxo:

I see you're reverting back to your old ways of only posting in an effort to annoy and irritate others.

[gldstwmn]

Wow - two NOLA police officers have committed suicide and 200 have walked off the job. :eek:

They're probably just tired and want to see their families if they can and sleep for a little while. It's been six days, after all.

[gldstwmn]

Christ. I watch Celebrity Fit Club to escape this horror for an hour and there are now 51 oil rigs missing? :shocked:

I watched Entourage and The Comeback, which has gotten to be much better.
I haven't found a link for that yet. I was hoping maybe someone else knew.

[strandinthewind]

They have shoot-to-kill orders. It makes my stomach weak.

With all due respect, I know people that have been volunteering on the search and rescue missions and are being shot at by people they cannot really see or directly in front of them. What are they supposed to do? They certainly cannot politely ask the gunmen trying to kill them for no good reason to stop or wait for the police :shrug: So, they have to shoot back and the reason they do is there is another elderly and/or disabled person in the next house waiting at this point on their last legs to be rescued. I hate this situation, but know of no other solution :shrug:

Also and on another note, did you hear about the ballet teacher who organized several hundred (I think) doctors and volunteers and chartered several buses and on her own and with community donations and her own money - I also think she is a lesbian as they referred to her friend as her "partner," which would be ironic that a goddless lesbian beat the self described righteous, closer to God Christians in good deeds. But anyway, she and her posse have evacuated like a thousand people and given food and medical attention to many in Mississippi. Everytime another "official" told her to stop or that she could not do this, she just ignored them and now thousands have benefited. I mean if this woman can do this, what the hell took FEMA so long to feed, provide medical attention for, and evacuate the rescued people in NOLA and the people in the dome, much less those in Mississippi.

[strandinthewind]

C . . . there are now 51 oil rigs missing? :shocked:


I looked for this - where is it being reported :eek:

[strandinthewind]

Wow - two NOLA police officers have committed suicide and 200 have walked off the job. :eek:

It could also be that they have no communications to speak of. So, the lack of communication could account for some of them counted as missing.

[strandinthewind]

CNN reports "Senate's Frist calls for hearings on response" :eek: He is a backstabbing opportunist (just ask Lott) - do you think he is going after W :eek:

[GateandGarden]

CNN reports "Senate's Frist calls for hearings on response" :eek: He is a backstabbing opportunist (just ask Lott) - do you think he is going after W :eek::shocked::shocked: Would he?

[GypsySorcerer]

:shocked::shocked: Would he?
Maybe he's eyeing 2008 and wants to distance himself from W. :rolleyes: But regardless, it needs to be done.

[GateandGarden]

Maybe he's eyeing 2008 and wants to distance himself from W. :rolleyes: ...I hadn't thought of that.

[GypsySorcerer]

I hadn't thought of that.
Sorry for planting the negative thought. :( :sorry:

[GateandGarden]

Sorry for planting the negative thought. :( :sorry:It's okay! :xoxo: :xoxo:





Damn Frist. Idiot.

[strandinthewind]

Well, now that I think about it, W said the initial evacuation of NOLA and MS was unacceptable. So, W probably is on board and wants to have a kangaroo court stacked in his favor and one that he can control. Interestingly, I have to wonder what kind of priviledge FEMA will assert to stymie the hearings. the plan was known publicly, so there can be no security issues. Moreover, they are on public television with outrageous quotes. So, much of the evidence is there. It is just not going to be pretty.

[GypsySorcerer]

It's okay! :xoxo: :xoxo:

Damn Frist. Idiot.

He is. But I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. :nod:

[Janet]

I agreed with everything you said too. I'm truely not a heartless person, I just don't agree with people getting a free ride if they are capable of supporting themselves.
In life I agree but in the Katrina situation, NO ONE deserved to DIE.

[Janet]

Janet, please, be realistic. Of course at least one person would die. Many people REFUSED to leave. Should they have been hit on the head and kidnapped? As for the poor, it's so easy to say "more should have been done! More should have been done! Obviously if one person died someone screwed up!!" Here we are in the comfort of our homes. We weren't there trying to get people out. We weren't there trying our best to save as many people as possible. But we still have the nerve to sit here and gripe how those people just didn't do good enough, according to us, in all our wisdom and vast knowledge about hurricane preparation and relief. Perhaps you know of some of the magical ways technology could have prevented every single death? If so, please alert the proper authorities.

It is absolutely absurd to argue that anyone wanted this massive amount of death.

I don't mean that one person would not have died.

Look at all the hurricanes we get every year! None in recent memory has had this death toll. I am just saying that if I could turn on tv and see that a catagory 5 hurricane was coming wouldn't you just attempt to get things going? Jesus Christ, if it snows up north, and there is a watch, they are out there days before salting the streets and not a snowflake will fall, but just in case. There are people being paid for emergency management...but I guess they just didn't care. No one takes these storms seriously...that's all.

I know many would have stayed..but God-these people aren't primates for goodness sakes, they are people and if they are told it's a matter of life and death...then I think they'd go. It would have been hard work but isn't human life worth it?? ALL I THINK IS SOMETHING MORE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE. That's all. I think that's being realistic.

[BombaySapphire3]

It would seem the Bush supporters on here are somehow tryng to deflect the blame some subtly ,and some not so subtly from their President.Consider this:If this person George W Bush could climb on a heap of rubble in lower Manhattan with a bullhorn in hand and take credit for the response to 9/11 he sure as hell needs to take responsibility for his fatal inaction to the aftermath of hurricane Katrina.

[JazmenFlowers]

I don't mean that one person would not have died.

Look at all the hurricanes we get every year! None in recent memory has had this death toll. I am just saying that if I could turn on tv and see that a catagory 5 hurricane was coming wouldn't you just attempt to get things going? Jesus Christ, if it snows up north, and there is a watch, they are out there days before salting the streets and not a snowflake will fall, but just in case. There are people being paid for emergency management...but I guess they just didn't care. No one takes these storms seriously...that's all.

I know many would have stayed..but God-these people aren't primates for goodness sakes, they are people and if they are told it's a matter of life and death...then I think they'd go. It would have been hard work but isn't human life worth it?? ALL I THINK IS SOMETHING MORE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE. That's all. I think that's being realistic.

what keeps ringing in my head is that these people are DYING of starvation and no water...this is like 2 hours from me and I can't believe there is no way we could have gotten food and water to them sooner...I just don't buy it. even people on the coast need food and water. there's a LOT we probably don't know about what went on behind the scenes but what I see makes me sick

[Janet]

I will say this now...

There are people working around the clock to save lives. I am not saying anything against these people. I am getting sleep in my comfortable apartment with food and drink at my constant access...and these people are giving up their lives, their holidays, sleep just to save lives. These people are heros. Thank GOD for these people. I just want to make that CLEAR.

I just wish more was done before...but they are working so hard NOW.
God Bless Them.

[JazmenFlowers]

I will say this now...

There are people working around the clock to save lives. I am not saying anything against these people. I am getting sleep in my comfortable apartment with food and drink at my constant access...and these people are giving up their lives, their holidays, sleep just to save lives. These people are heros. Thank GOD for these people. I just want to make that CLEAR.

I just wish more was done before...but they are working so hard NOW.
God Bless Them.

I couldn't agree more. I just learned that my dad volunteered early this morning to go to NOLA and then was headed to Dallas with food. Now, I worry for him and hope he is ok and it fills my heart with such pride and joy to know he is out there doing this.

Keep him safe...

[Kelly]

I agreed with everything you said too. I'm truely not a heartless person, I just don't agree with people getting a free ride if they are capable of supporting themselves.

Giving someone a buck on the side of the road does not constitute a "free ride". Homeless people suffer, terribly. Why they are homeless really is not the point...because anyone in their right mind would not want to live over a steam grate in subzero freezing tempertures with no future. Most of them ARE mentally ill or addicted and addiction is a illness.
Every single Thursday and Friday, my job takes me over to Center City Philadelphia to the Federal Court Building. I go to the same Dunkin Donuts every Thursday and Friday morning for my java. I see the same dirty, sad, poor, hungry, cold, man every time I go. I buy him a donut and give him a dollar every single solitary Thursday and Friday morning. Yep, it is my hard earned money like you say, but really, am I going to miss that dollar? If he buys a bottle of beer or a hotdog, I dont give a ****. This same dirty man holds the door for me every single time and calls me "Mame". I feel compassion for him and he has never treated me with disrespect, so I show him respect. Could he work? I don't know but he obviously is in a bad way if he is living on the streets. Honestly, if more people had just a little bit more compassion in their hearts, it could make a big difference. BTW..I try to teach my kids to be the same way. Yesterday, my ten year old stood with his boy scout troup in the blazing sun, collecting money for the Hurricane victims. He WANTED to go....so I must be doing something right.

[dissention]

He is. But I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. :nod:

Not with those crooked hospitals he doesn't.

[dissention]

This is all I can think about: http://www.nola.com/weblogs/nola/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_nolaview/archives/2005_09.html#076307

Are there updates? What's happening down there now? Not demanding answers from you specifically but it feels like the updates have gone quiet.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054595
Hurricane Center Dir. Tells Paper He Briefed Brown and Chertoff on Dangers

Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, told the Times-Picayune Sunday afternoon that officials with the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security, including FEMA Director Mike Brown and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, listened in on electronic briefings given by his staff in advance of Hurricane Katrina slamming Louisiana and Mississippi--and were advised of the storm’s potential deadly effects.

[dissention]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050904/ts_alt_afp/usweathercelebrities_050904195241
Stars Celine Dion, Harry Connick brand N. Orleans suffering unacceptable

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - Diva Celine Dion and crooner Harry Connick Junior have rounded on US authorities over the slow response to the effort to rescue victims of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

In a special broadcast of CNN television's Larry King Live programme, the Canadian singer famed for her theme song from the watery epic Titanic became highly emotional as she spoke of the plight of the survivors.

"I open the television, there's people still there, waiting to be rescued, and for me it's not acceptable," she said in an interview late Saturday in which her sobs frequently drowned out her words.

"I know there's reasons for it. I'm sorry to say I'm being rude, but I don't want to hear those reasons," she said of the delayed relief effort that has prompted virulent criticism of the US government.

Dion has donated one million dollars to the victims of the storm that wrought catastrophe on the US Gulf Coast after hitting Monday and sparking a deadly flood of the US jazz capital of New Orleans.

"We need to serve our country and for me to serve our country is to be there right now to rescue the rest of the people. We need the cash. We need the blood. We need the support. Right now we need the prayers," she said.

Officials say that thousands of people are feared killed in New Orleans where tens of thousands of survivors had to wait up to five days for military convoys and airlift planes to get into the city to rescue them.

Many died in overcrowded makeshift shelters set up in the city's Superdome stadium and convention center as they waited for help to arrive.

Dion also slammed authorities for arresting looters in the city that became a hellish haven of crime and violence after the storm laid waste to its infrastructure and services.

"The main thing right now, it's not the people who are stealing. It's the people who are left there and they're watching helicopters flying over their heads and they're praying.

"How come it's so easy to send planes in another country to kill everyone in a second, to destroy lives?" Dion said in a clear reference to the US-led war in
Iraq.

Singer and actor Connick, who hails from New Orleans and visited the stricken city last week, said he was horrified by the sight of the scores of bodies, including that of an old woman in chairs in the convention center.

"That woman was born a long time ago, and she died on the street like an animal essentially. And this is the United States. You know, this is New Orleans," he said.

Connick criticised the fact that troops and the main aid columns only made it into the city on Friday, four days after the storm, saying a friend had commandeered an abandoned city bus to help evacuate refugees.

"And I'm thinking, if (she) can get on a bus and drive a bus out with sick people, you know, well, we can't get a barge to park back up on the Mississippi behind the convention center and get these people out?"

[dissention]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050904/ts_nm/weather_katrina_wrap_dc_25
New Orleans collects dead as officials dodge blame

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - New Orleans began the gruesome task of collecting its thousands of dead on Sunday as the Bush administration tried to save face after its botched rescue plans left the city at the mercy of Hurricane Katrina.

Except for rescue workers and scattered groups of people, streets in the once-vibrant capital of jazz and good times were all but abandoned after a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of refugees into neighboring Texas and other states.

Battered and sickened survivors made no attempt to disguise their anger: "We have been abandoned by our own country, " Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, just south of New Orleans, told NBC's Meet the Press.

"It's not just Katrina that caused all these deaths in New Orleans," Broussard said. "Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area, and bureaucracy has to stand trial before Congress now."

After a nightmare confluence of natural disaster and political ineptitude that al Qaeda-linked Web sites called evidence of the "wrath of God" striking America, National Guard troops and U.S. marshals patrolled the city, stricken in the days after the hurricane by anarchic violence and looting.

Local and federal officials said they expected to find thousands of corpses still floating in flood waters or locked inside homes and buildings destroyed by the devastating storm that struck the U.S. Gulf coast last Monday.

"When we remove the water from New Orleans, we're going to uncover people who died hiding in houses, who got caught by the flood. People whose remains will be found in the street," U.S.
Homeland Security Secretary
Michael Chertoff told Fox News.

AS UGLY AS YOU CAN IMAGINE

"There'll be pollution. It is going to be about as ugly a scene as you can imagine."

Later, Chertoff flew into New Orleans and said the search for storm victims would be arduous. "Let me be clear: we're going to have to go house to house in this city," he said. "This is not going to happen overnight."

President George W. Bush, who in a rare admission of error, conceded on Friday that the results of his administration's relief efforts were unacceptable, said on Saturday he would send 7,200 more active-duty troops over three days.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld toured a medical facility at New Orleans' international airport on Sunday. He spoke and shook hands with military and rescue officials but walked right by a dozen refugees lying on stretchers just feet away from him, most of them extremely sick or handicapped.

Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice was touring the Mobile, Alabama, area, in her native state.

A further 10,000 National Guard troops were being sent to storm-hit Louisiana and Mississippi, raising the total to 40,000. A total of 54,000 military personnel are now committed to relief efforts.

Lawmakers promised to allocate more relief money in coming weeks after Bush signed a $10.5 billion aid package for Gulf Coast areas hit by Katrina.

LOOKING FOR THE DEAD

Towns along the Gulf Coast ripped apart by Katrina were beginning the enormous task of reconstruction and accounting for the dead. In hard-hit Biloxi, Mississippi, homes and cars still lay piled up on each other or under trees, and power lines dangled everywhere.

Well over 100 deaths had been confirmed in Mississippi and "we are finding new casualties in the debris," Biloxi town spokesman Vincent Creel said on Saturday.

The living told tales of horror in stricken New Orleans.

"There were bodies floating everywhere. Lots of them. Some had bullets in them," said Michael Davis, 18, as he described his escape from a neighborhood immersed in more than 10 feet of water last week. He ultimately found refuge at a domed arena in Lafayette, Louisiana.

Mississippi largely escaped the turmoil in New Orleans but officials warned of a serious risk of dysentery and other diseases from contaminated water.

"It's not a disaster, it's a catastrophe," Harrison County's health director, Bob Trabnicek, said in Biloxi.

"Why they don't try to get us out of here, I don't know," said Ella Robertson, 51, as she paced back and forth on a debris-lined Biloxi street. "Waiting, that's all we can do."

The storm's impact was felt across the United States as gas prices rose to well over $3 a gallon after Katrina's 140-mph (225-kph) winds shut eight oil refineries and crippled others.

'TWO CATASTROPHES'

Defending the administration's response and disaster planning, Chertoff said the hurricane and flood in New Orleans were "two catastrophes" that presented an unprecedented challenge.

"That perfect storm of combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners and maybe anybody's foresight," the homeland security chief said.

Critics have said the
Federal Emergency Management Agency has lost its effectiveness since it became part of the Homeland Security Department in a post-September 11 reorganization.

Rice was slammed by critics on the Internet after she attended a New York performance of the Monty Python musical "Spamalot" on Wednesday, a day after New Orleans flooded.

After returning to Washington, she defended the administration against charges the slow government response and prolonged suffering of New Orleans' predominantly black storm victims were signs of racial neglect.

"That Americans would somehow in a color-affected way decide who to help and who not to help, I just don't believe it," said Rice, the administration's highest-ranking black official.

The Washington Post reported on Sunday that Bush administration officials were blaming state and local authorities for the disaster response problems. The newspaper said the administration was rebuffed in an effort to take control of police and National Guard units reporting to Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco, a Democrat. (That's bull****.)

[dissention]

These people have brass balls.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050905-120743-9482r.htm
Top federal officials left out of loop

State and local officials did not inform top federal officials early on of the deaths and lack of food among hurricane victims in the Superdome or convention center, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said yesterday.

Mr. Chertoff said neither he nor Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown was told of the deteriorating situation in New Orleans until Thursday night.

Do Chertoff and Brown actually believe that people will buy this??? How did we all know it but they didn't?

[dissention]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050905/ts_latimes/heheldtheirlivesinhistinyhands&printer=1
He Held Their Lives in His Tiny Hands

BATON ROUGE, La. — In the chaos that was Causeway Boulevard, this group of refugees stood out: a 6-year-old boy walking down the road, holding a 5-month-old, surrounded by five toddlers who followed him around as if he were their leader.

They were holding hands. Three of the children were about 2 years old, and one was wearing only diapers. A 3-year-old girl, who wore colorful barrettes on the ends of her braids, had her 14-month-old brother in tow. The 6-year-old spoke for all of them, and he told rescuers his name was Deamonte Love.

Thousands of human stories have flown past relief workers in the last week, but few have touched them as much as the seven children who were found wandering together Thursday at an evacuation point in downtown New Orleans. In the Baton Rouge headquarters of the rescue operation, paramedics tried to coax their names out of them; nurses who examined them stayed up that night, brooding.

Transporting the children alone was "the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, knowing that their parents are either dead" or that they had been abandoned, said Pat Coveney, a Houston emergency medical technician who put them into the back of his ambulance and drove them out of New Orleans.

"It goes back to the same thing," he said. "How did a 6-year-old end up being in charge of six babies?"

So far, parents displaced by flooding have reported 220 children missing, but that number is expected to rise, said Mike Kenner of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which will help reunite families. With crowds churning at evacuation points, many children were parted from their parents accidentally; one woman handed her baby up onto a bus, turned around to pick up her suitcase and turned back to find that the bus had left.

"When my kids were little I used to lose them in Target, so it's not hard for me to believe," said Nanette White, press secretary for Louisiana's Department of Social Services. "Sometimes little kids just wander off. They're there one second and you blink and they're gone."

At the rescue headquarters, a cool tile-floored building swarming with firefighters and paramedics, the children ate cafeteria food and fell into a deep sleep. Deamonte volunteered his vital statistics. He said his father was tall and his mother was short. He gave his address, his phone number and the name of his elementary school.

He said that the 5-month-old was his brother, Darynael, and that two others were his cousins, Tyreek and Zoria. The other three lived in his apartment building.

The children were clean and healthy — downright plump in the case of the infant, said Joyce Miller, a nurse who examined them. It was clear, she said, that "time had been taken with those kids." The baby was "fat and happy."

All evening Thursday as strike teams came and went to the flooded city, volunteer Ron Haynes carried one of the 2-year-old girls back and forth, playing with her until she was calm enough to eat dinner.

"This baby child was terrified," he said. "After she relaxed, it was gobble, gobble, gobble."

As grim dispatches came in from the field, one woman in the office burst into tears at the thought that the children had been abandoned in New Orleans, said Sharon Howard, assistant secretary of the office of public health.

Late the same night, they got an encouraging report: A woman in a shelter in Thibodeaux was searching for seven children. People in the building started clapping at the news. But when they got the mother on the phone, it became clear that she was looking for a different group of seven children, Howard said.

"What that made me understand was that this was happening across the state," she said. "That kind of frightened me."

The children were transferred to a shelter operated by the Department of Social Services, rooms full of toys and cribs where mentors from the Big Buddy Program were on hand day and night. For the next two days, the staff did detective work.

One of the 2-year-olds steadfastly refused to say her name until a worker took her picture with a digital camera and showed it to her. The little girl pointed at it and cried out, "Gabby!" One of the boys — with a halo of curly hair — had a G printed on his T-shirt when he arrived; when volunteers started calling him G, they noticed that he responded.

Deamonte began to give more details to Derrick Robertson, a 27-year-old Big Buddy mentor: How he saw his mother cry when he was loaded onto the helicopter. How he promised her he'd take care of his little brother.

Late Saturday night, they found Deamonte's mother, who was in a shelter in San Antonio along with the four mothers of the other five children. Catrina Williams, 26, saw her children's pictures on a website set up over the weekend by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. By Sunday, a private plane from Angel Flight was waiting to take the children to Texas.

In a phone interview, Williams said she is the kind of mother who doesn't let her children out of her sight. What happened the Thursday after the hurricane, she said, was that her family, trapped in an apartment building on the 3200 block of Third Street in New Orleans, began to feel desperate.

The water wasn't going down and they had been living without light, food or air conditioning for four days. The baby needed milk and the milk was gone. So she decided they would evacuate by helicopter. When a helicopter arrived to pick them up, they were told to send the children first and that the helicopter would be back in 25 minutes. She and her neighbors had to make a quick decision.

It was a wrenching moment. Williams' father, Adrian Love, told her to send the children ahead.

"I told them to go ahead and give them up, because me, I would give my life for my kids. They should feel the same way," said Love, 48. "They were shedding tears. I said, 'Let the babies go.' "

His daughter and her friends followed his advice.

"We did what we had to do for our kids, because we love them," Williams said.

The helicopter didn't come back. While the children were transported to Baton Rouge, their parents wound up in Texas, and although Williams was reassured that they would be reunited, days passed without any contact. On Sunday, she was elated.

"All I know is I just want to see my kids," she said. "Everything else will just fall into place."

At 3 p.m. Sunday, DSS workers said goodbye to seven children who now had names: Deamonte Love; Darynael Love; Zoria Love and her brother Tyreek. The girl who cried "Gabby!" was Gabrielle Janae Alexander. The girl they called Peanut was Degahney Carter. And the boy whom they called G was actually Lee — Leewood Moore Jr.

The children were strapped into car seats and driven to an airport, where they were flown to San Antonio to rejoin their parents. As they were loaded into the van, the shelter workers looked in the windows.

The baby gaped with delight in the front seat. Deamonte was hanging onto Robertson's neck so desperately that Robertson decided, at the last minute, to ride with him as far as Lafayette.

Shelter worker Kori Thomas held Zoria, 3, who reached out to smooth her eyebrows. Tyreek put a single fat finger on the van window by way of goodbye.

Robertson said he doubted the children would remember much of the helicopter evacuation, the Causeway, the sweltering heat or the smell of the flooded city.

"I think what's going to stick with them is that they survived Hurricane Katrina," he said. "And that they were loved."

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

^ That's heart breaking... poor things

[strandinthewind]

These people have brass balls.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050905-120743-9482r.htm
Top federal officials left out of loop

State and local officials did not inform top federal officials early on of the deaths and lack of food among hurricane victims in the Superdome or convention center, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said yesterday.

Mr. Chertoff said neither he nor Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown was told of the deteriorating situation in New Orleans until Thursday night.

Do Chertoff and Brown actually believe that people will buy this??? How did we all know it but they didn't?

The Times Picayune already dismissed that blatant lie here Editorial blasts federal response here (emphsis supplied) -

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The Times-Picayune of New Orleans printed this editorial in its Sunday edition, criticizing the federal government's response to Hurricane Katrina and calling on every FEMA official to be fired:

An open letter to the President
Dear Mr. President:

We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, "What is not working, we're going to make it right."

Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.

Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It's accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.

How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.

Despite the city's multiple points of entry, our nation's bureaucrats spent days after last week's hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city's stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.

Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.

Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a "Today" show story Friday morning.

Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.

We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame.

Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don't know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city's death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.

It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren't they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn't suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?

State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn't have but two urgent needs: "Buses! And gas!" Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.

In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn't known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, "We've provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they've gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day."

Lies don't get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.


Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, "You're doing a heck of a job."[/B]

That's unbelievable.

There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.

We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We're no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.

No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn't be reached.

Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.

When you do, we will be the first to applaud.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/times.picayune.editorial/index.html

[strandinthewind]

Giving someone a buck on the side of the road does not constitute a "free ride". Homeless people suffer, terribly. Why they are homeless really is not the point...because anyone in their right mind would not want to live over a steam grate in subzero freezing tempertures with no future. Most of them ARE mentally ill or addicted and addiction is a illness.
Every single Thursday and Friday, my job takes me over to Center City Philadelphia to the Federal Court Building. I go to the same Dunkin Donuts every Thursday and Friday morning for my java. I see the same dirty, sad, poor, hungry, cold, man every time I go. I buy him a donut and give him a dollar every single solitary Thursday and Friday morning. Yep, it is my hard earned money like you say, but really, am I going to miss that dollar? If he buys a bottle of beer or a hotdog, I dont give a ****. This same dirty man holds the door for me every single time and calls me "Mame". I feel compassion for him and he has never treated me with disrespect, so I show him respect. Could he work? I don't know but he obviously is in a bad way if he is living on the streets. Honestly, if more people had just a little bit more compassion in their hearts, it could make a big difference. BTW..I try to teach my kids to be the same way. Yesterday, my ten year old stood with his boy scout troup in the blazing sun, collecting money for the Hurricane victims. He WANTED to go....so I must be doing something right.

I agree whole heatedly. I work in downtown Atlanta in a fairly bad area (Five Points) - I see more bums everyday than most see in a lifetime. It can be scary for this comparatively well heeled white guy as the vast majority are black and poor. Yet, when I see that homeless old lady in the same clothes everyday or that guy who has no legs in the chair trying to cross the street, or the many more, I cannot help but give a little. I mean there but for the Grace of God go I. Does that mean I give everyone a dollar. Of course I don't - no one could do that. But, a dollar here and there is not going to break me or most, though I realize there are working people who cannot.

[strandinthewind]

From Anne Rice, whom I met once and thought a real treasure - what a lady. Fortunately, it appears her former house on First Street, which was the subject of "The Witching Hour" was spared, a small consolation amongst the ramoant death and destruction, but that house holds a special place for me as a former girlfriend's parents owned it prior to Rice and I spent time there.

___________________________________________________________

September 4, 2005

Do You Know What It Means to Lose New Orleans?

By ANNE RICE

La Jolla, Calif.

WHAT do people really know about New Orleans?

Do they take away with them an awareness that it has always been not only a great white metropolis but also a great black city, a city where African-Americans have come together again and again to form the strongest African-American culture in the land?

The first literary magazine ever published in Louisiana was the work of black men, French-speaking poets and writers who brought together their work in three issues of a little book called L'Album Littéraire. That was in the 1840's, and by that time the city had a prosperous class of free black artisans, sculptors, businessmen, property owners, skilled laborers in all fields. Thousands of slaves lived on their own in the city, too, making a living at various jobs, and sending home a few dollars to their owners in the country at the end of the month.

This is not to diminish the horror of the slave market in the middle of the famous St. Louis Hotel, or the injustice of the slave labor on plantations from one end of the state to the other. It is merely to say that it was never all "have or have not" in this strange and beautiful city.

Later in the 19th century, as the Irish immigrants poured in by the thousands, filling the holds of ships that had emptied their cargoes of cotton in Liverpool, and as the German and Italian immigrants soon followed, a vital and complex culture emerged. Huge churches went up to serve the great faith of the city's European-born Catholics; convents and schools and orphanages were built for the newly arrived and the struggling; the city expanded in all directions with new neighborhoods of large, graceful houses, or areas of more humble cottages, even the smallest of which, with their floor-length shutters and deep-pitched roofs, possessed an undeniable Caribbean charm.

Through this all, black culture never declined in Louisiana. In fact, New Orleans became home to blacks in a way, perhaps, that few other American cities have ever been. Dillard University and Xavier University became two of the most outstanding black colleges in America; and once the battles of desegregation had been won, black New Orleanians entered all levels of life, building a visible middle class that is absent in far too many Western and Northern American cities to this day.

The influence of blacks on the music of the city and the nation is too immense and too well known to be described. It was black musicians coming down to New Orleans for work who nicknamed the city "the Big Easy" because it was a place where they could always find a job. But it's not fair to the nature of New Orleans to think of jazz and the blues as the poor man's music, or the music of the oppressed.

Something else was going on in New Orleans. The living was good there. The clock ticked more slowly; people laughed more easily; people kissed; people loved; there was joy.

Which is why so many New Orleanians, black and white, never went north. They didn't want to leave a place where they felt at home in neighborhoods that dated back centuries; they didn't want to leave families whose rounds of weddings, births and funerals had become the fabric of their lives. They didn't want to leave a city where tolerance had always been able to outweigh prejudice, where patience had always been able to outweigh rage. They didn't want to leave a place that was theirs.

And so New Orleans prospered, slowly, unevenly, but surely - home to Protestants and Catholics, including the Irish parading through the old neighborhood on St. Patrick's Day as they hand out cabbages and potatoes and onions to the eager crowds; including the Italians, with their lavish St. Joseph's altars spread out with cakes and cookies in homes and restaurants and churches every March; including the uptown traditionalists who seek to preserve the peace and beauty of the Garden District; including the Germans with their clubs and traditions; including the black population playing an ever increasing role in the city's civic affairs.

Now nature has done what the Civil War couldn't do. Nature has done what the labor riots of the 1920's couldn't do. Nature had done what "modern life" with its relentless pursuit of efficiency couldn't do. It has done what racism couldn't do, and what segregation couldn't do either. Nature has laid the city waste - with a scope that brings to mind the end of Pompeii.

•

I share this history for a reason - and to answer questions that have arisen these last few days. Almost as soon as the cameras began panning over the rooftops, and the helicopters began chopping free those trapped in their attics, a chorus of voices rose. "Why didn't they leave?" people asked both on and off camera. "Why did they stay there when they knew a storm was coming?" One reporter even asked me, "Why do people live in such a place?"

Then as conditions became unbearable, the looters took to the streets. Windows were smashed, jewelry snatched, stores broken open, water and food and televisions carried out by fierce and uninhibited crowds.

Now the voices grew even louder. How could these thieves loot and pillage in a time of such crisis? How could people shoot one another? Because the faces of those drowning and the faces of those looting were largely black faces, race came into the picture. What kind of people are these, the people of New Orleans, who stay in a city about to be flooded, and then turn on one another?

Well, here's an answer. Thousands didn't leave New Orleans because they couldn't leave. They didn't have the money. They didn't have the vehicles. They didn't have any place to go. They are the poor, black and white, who dwell in any city in great numbers; and they did what they felt they could do - they huddled together in the strongest houses they could find. There was no way to up and leave and check into the nearest Ramada Inn.

What's more, thousands more who could have left stayed behind to help others. They went out in the helicopters and pulled the survivors off rooftops; they went through the flooded streets in their boats trying to gather those they could find. Meanwhile, city officials tried desperately to alleviate the worsening conditions in the Superdome, while makeshift shelters and hotels and hospitals struggled.

And where was everyone else during all this? Oh, help is coming, New Orleans was told. We are a rich country. Congress is acting. Someone will come to stop the looting and care for the refugees.

And it's true: eventually, help did come. But how many times did Gov. Kathleen Blanco have to say that the situation was desperate? How many times did Mayor Ray Nagin have to call for aid? Why did America ask a city cherished by millions and excoriated by some, but ignored by no one, to fight for its own life for so long? That's my question.

I know that New Orleans will win its fight in the end. I was born in the city and lived there for many years. It shaped who and what I am. Never have I experienced a place where people knew more about love, about family, about loyalty and about getting along than the people of New Orleans. It is perhaps their very gentleness that gives them their endurance.

They will rebuild as they have after storms of the past; and they will stay in New Orleans because it is where they have always lived, where their mothers and their fathers lived, where their churches were built by their ancestors, where their family graves carry names that go back 200 years. They will stay in New Orleans where they can enjoy a sweetness of family life that other communities lost long ago.

But to my country I want to say this: During this crisis you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed our victims; you dismissed us. You want our Jazz Fest, you want our Mardi Gras, you want our cooking and our music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you saw a tiny minority preying on the weak among us, you called us "Sin City," and turned your backs.

Well, we are a lot more than all that. And though we may seem the most exotic, the most atmospheric and, at times, the most downtrodden part of this land, we are still part of it. We are Americans. We are you.

Anne Rice is the author of the forthcoming novel "Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt."

[strandinthewind]

Halliburton Subsidiary Taps Contract For Repairs

By Lolita C. Baldor
Associated Press
Monday, September 5, 2005; A20

An Arlington-based Halliburton Co. subsidiary that has been criticized for its reconstruction work in Iraq has begun tapping a $500 million Navy contract to do emergency repairs at Gulf Coast naval and Marine facilities damaged by Hurricane Katrina.

The subsidiary, Kellogg, Brown & Root Services Inc., won the competitive bid contract last July to provide debris removal and other emergency work associated with natural disasters.

Jan Davis, a spokeswoman for the Naval Facilities Engineering Command, said yesterday that KBR would receive $12 million for work at the Naval Air Station at Pascagoula, Miss., the Naval Station at Gulfport, Miss., and Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. KBR will receive $4.6 million for work at two smaller Navy facilities in New Orleans and others in the South.

The company has provided similar work after major disasters in the United States and abroad for more than 15 years, including in Florida after Hurricane Andrew.

KBR has been at the center of scrutiny for receiving a five-year, no-bid contract to restore Iraqi oil fields shortly before the war began in 2003. Halliburton has reported being paid $10.7 billion for Iraq-related government work during 2003 and 2004. The company reported its pretax profits from that work as $163 million. Pentagon auditors have questioned tens of millions of dollars of Halliburton charges for its operations there.

Last month three congressional Democrats asked Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to investigate the demotion of a senior civilian Army official, Bunnatine H. Greenhouse, who publicly criticized the awarding of that contract.

Vice President Cheney headed Halliburton from 1995 to 2000, and Democrats have questioned whether the firm received favorable treatment because of his connection.
__________________________________________________________

this one was competitive and they are good at doing the work :shrug: but still :mad:

[David]

Halliburton Subsidiary Taps Contract For Repairs

An Arlington-based Halliburton Co. subsidiary that has been criticized for its reconstruction work in Iraq has begun tapping a $500 million Navy contract to do emergency repairs at Gulf Coast naval and Marine facilities damaged by Hurricane Katrina.

The subsidiary, Kellogg, Brown & Root Services Inc., won the competitive bid contract last July to provide debris removal and other emergency work associated with natural disasters.BWAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAA!!!!!!!

Goodness, what will that company do after Bush's 2nd term ends?!

[strandinthewind]

BWAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAA!!!!!!!

Goodness, what will that company do after Bush's 2nd term ends?!

Never to fear - the D's regularly award them contracts as well:

but here is an article that puts it into perspective:

US: Halliburton Lobby Costs Drop

by Maud S. Beelman, Boston Globe
March 27th, 2004


WASHINGTON - Halliburton, the oil and construction conglomerate formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney, dramatically reduced what it spent on lobbying Congress and the federal government after the Bush-Cheney administration took office in January 2001.

During the last two years of the Clinton administration, Halliburton reported spending $1.2 million lobbying the Senate, House of Representatives, and various executive branch departments, according to records reviewed by the Globe. In comparison, during the first two years of the Bush administration, Halliburton reported spending just $600,000.

Despite the dropoff in lobbying, the value of Halliburton's work began to increase in the run-up to the Iraq War, and eventually came to be worth more than $8 billion for overseeing aspects of the Iraqi reconstruction. Its federal contracts never exceeded $1 billion per year under the Clinton administration.

A Halliburton spokeswoman said the cuts in lobbying funds reflected a decision to rely more on industrywide lobbyists than individuals representing the company's particular interests.

But James Thurber, an American University professor who studies interest groups and lobbying, was skeptical of that explanation.

"They're already in; they don't need to lobby any more," Thurber said of Halliburton.

The flood of business to Halliburton for the Iraq reconstruction, coupled with allegations that it overcharged the government on some aspects of its contracts, has led some Democrats to contend the company may be benefiting from its association with the Bush administration.

Cheney has denied playing any role in giving Halliburton contracts or expanding existing contracts. And last month, Halliburton launched a media campaign to counter suggestions that it had benefited from its association with Cheney, whose blind trust continues to receive payments from the company. The vice president has said he insured the payments so they would neither rise nor fall depending on changes in the company's business.

"We're serving the troops because of what we know, not who we know," Dave Lesar, who succeeded Cheney as Halliburton's president and CEO, says in one television ad broadcast in Washington.

Halliburton's lobbying activities are spelled out in documents submitted under the Lobbying Disclosure Act of 1995, which mandates that those who lobby Congress or the executive branch file twice-yearly reports on their activities. The latest report shows Halliburton spending $150,000 for the first six months of 2003. Reports for the second half of 2003 are not yet public.

"In recent years, we have joined others in their efforts as a team approach versus an individual company effort," Wendy Hall, Halliburton's director of public relations, wrote in an e-mail when asked about the decline. "We are doing business in a completely different environment; issues have changed, budgets have changed, and the economy has changed."

Under the Clinton administration, Halliburton's business grew but never exceeded $839 million per year, according to the nonpartisan Center for Public Integrity.

The Army Corps of Engineers has told members of Congress that Halliburton was awarded the Iraq contracts because it had won a competitively bid contract in December 2001 to support the military's operations abroad, beating out the previous contract holder, DynCorps, as well as Raytheon.

That put it in a position to receive a no-bid classified order to design a contingency plan to deal with oil well fires in the event of a war in Iraq in the fall of 2002. After the invasion, the Corps greatly expanded Halliburton's contract without competitive bidding because, the Corps has said, the company was the only one in a position to implement the plan on time because it designed the plan.

But critics have insisted that more of the billions of dollars in work being given to Halliburton should have been put out to competitive bid, and that the Bush administration should have done more to assure that the company was not amassing unreasonable profits.

Companies employ lobbyists - often firms of lawyers or former government officials with strong political ties - to ensure their views are heard and their interests are cared for on Capitol Hill, at the White House, and throughout the federal government. Halliburton's chief lobbyist, for example, is Charles Dominy, a retired general with the Army Corps of Engineers, which oversees its contracts in Iraq.

Lobbying and employing former government officials are not the only source of influence in Washington. Campaign contributions offer a third corridor of access.

In the last presidential election, Halliburton, its subsidiaries, and employees contributed $536,765 to federal candidates, party committees, and leadership PACs, or political action committees, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Ninety-seven percent of that, or $521,715, went to Republicans.

The same trend was clear in the 1996 election cycle, when 96 percent of Halliburton's $448,563 in political contributions went to Republicans. So far in this latest presidential election cycle, 88 percent of Halliburton's giving has gone to Republicans, according to the agency.

The lobbying reports offer the only quantifiable measure of a company's lobbying activities, but the Rev. Edward B. Arroyo, co-author of "The Ethics of Lobbying: Organized Interests, Political Power, and the Common Good," cautions against assuming a causal relationship between Halliburton's decreased spending on lobbying and Cheney's presence in the Bush administration.

"There's obviously a correlation, a very crude correlation, about which party was in power in 1999-2000 and which party was in power in 2001, and, of course, the vice president was head of Halliburton," Arroyo said by phone from New Orleans, where he directs an ethics in public policy program at Loyola University in collaboration with Georgetown University. "But it's the deception of a correlation."

"There's just a lot more types of lobbying that you don't have to register," including public relations strategies and grass-roots campaigns, he added. "Halliburton may be doing all kinds of lobbying that we can't get a handle on."

http://www.corpwatch.org/print_article.php?id=11251

[strandinthewind]

No matter his personal life, Rich can turn a phrase :nod:

September 4, 2005
Falluja Floods the Superdome
By FRANK RICH
AS the levees cracked open and ushered hell into New Orleans on Tuesday, President Bush once again chose to fly away from Washington, not toward it, while disaster struck. We can all enumerate the many differences between a natural catastrophe and a terrorist attack. But character doesn't change: it is immutable, and it is destiny.

As always, the president's first priority, the one that sped him from Crawford toward California, was saving himself: he had to combat the flood of record-low poll numbers that was as uncontrollable as the surging of Lake Pontchartrain. It was time, therefore, for another disingenuous pep talk, in which he would exploit the cataclysm that defined his first term, 9/11, even at the price of failing to recognize the emerging fiasco likely to engulf Term 2.

After dispatching Katrina with a few sentences of sanctimonious boilerplate ("our hearts and prayers are with our fellow citizens"), he turned to his more important task. The war in Iraq is World War II. George W. Bush is F.D.R. And anyone who refuses to stay his course is soft on terrorism and guilty of a pre-9/11 "mind-set of isolation and retreat." Yet even as Mr. Bush promised "victory" (a word used nine times in this speech on Tuesday), he was standing at the totemic scene of his failure. It was along this same San Diego coastline that he declared "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq on the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln more than two years ago. For this return engagement, The Washington Post reported, the president's stage managers made sure he was positioned so that another hulking aircraft carrier nearby would stay off-camera, lest anyone be reminded of that premature end of "major combat operations."

This administration would like us to forget a lot, starting with the simple fact that next Sunday is the fourth anniversary of the day we were attacked by Al Qaeda, not Iraq. Even before Katrina took command of the news, Sept. 11, 2005, was destined to be a half-forgotten occasion, distorted and sullied by a grotesquely inappropriate Pentagon-sponsored country music jamboree on the Mall. But hard as it is to reflect upon so much sorrow at once, we cannot allow ourselves to forget the real history surrounding 9/11; it is the Rosetta stone for what is happening now. If we are to pull ourselves out of the disasters of Katrina and Iraq alike, we must live in the real world, not the fantasyland of the administration's faith-based propaganda. Everything connects.

Though history is supposed to occur first as tragedy, then as farce, even at this early stage we can see that tragedy is being repeated once more as tragedy. From the president's administration's inattention to threats before 9/11 to his disappearing act on the day itself to the reckless blundering in the ill-planned war of choice that was 9/11's bastard offspring, Katrina is déjÃ* vu with a vengeance.

The president's declaration that "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees" has instantly achieved the notoriety of Condoleezza Rice's "I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center." The administration's complete obliviousness to the possibilities for energy failures, food and water deprivation, and civil disorder in a major city under siege needs only the Donald Rumsfeld punch line of "Stuff happens" for a coup de grâce. How about shared sacrifice, so that this time we might get the job done right? After Mr. Bush's visit on "Good Morning America" on Thursday, Diane Sawyer reported on a postinterview conversation in which he said, "There won't have to be tax increases."

But on a second go-round, even the right isn't so easily fooled by this drill (with the reliable exception of Peggy Noonan, who found much reassurance in Mr. Bush's initial autopilot statement about the hurricane, with its laundry list of tarps and blankets). This time the fecklessness and deceit were all too familiar. They couldn't be obliterated by a bullhorn or by the inspiring initial post-9/11 national unity that bolstered the president until he betrayed it. This time the heartlessness beneath the surface of his actions was more pronounced.

You could almost see Mr. Bush's political base starting to crumble at its very epicenter, Fox News, by Thursday night. Even there it was impossible to ignore that the administration was no more successful at securing New Orleans than it had been at pacifying Falluja.

A visibly exasperated Shepard Smith, covering the story on the ground in Louisiana, went further still, tossing hand grenades of harsh reality into Bill O'Reilly's usually spin-shellacked "No Spin Zone." Among other hard facts, Mr. Smith noted "that the haves of this city, the movers and shakers of this city, evacuated the city either immediately before or immediately after the storm." What he didn't have to say, since it was visible to the entire world, was that it was the poor who were left behind to drown.

In that sense, the inequality of the suffering has not only exposed the sham of the relentless photo-ops with black schoolchildren whom the president trots out at campaign time to sell his "compassionate conservatism"; it has also positioned Katrina before a rapt late-summer audience as a replay of the sinking of the Titanic. New Orleans's first-class passengers made it safely into lifeboats; for those in steerage, it was a horrifying spectacle of every man, woman and child for himself.

THE captain in this case, Michael Chertoff, the homeland security secretary, was so oblivious to those on the lower decks that on Thursday he applauded the federal response to the still rampaging nightmare as "really exceptional." He told NPR that he had "not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water" - even though every television viewer in the country had been hearing of those 25,000 stranded refugees for at least a day. This Titanic syndrome, too, precisely echoes the post-9/11 wartime history of an administration that has rewarded the haves at home with economic goodies while leaving the have-nots to fight in Iraq without proper support in manpower or armor. Surely it's only a matter of time before Mr. Chertoff and the equally at sea FEMA director, Michael Brown (who also was among the last to hear about the convention center), are each awarded a Presidential Medal of Freedom in line with past architects of lethal administration calamity like George Tenet and Paul Bremer.

On Thursday morning, the president told Diane Sawyer that he hoped "people don't play politics during this period of time." Presumably that means that the photos of him wistfully surveying the Katrina damage from Air Force One won't be sold to campaign donors as the equivalent 9/11 photos were. Maybe he'll even call off the right-wing attack machine so it won't Swift-boat the Katrina survivors who emerge to ask tough questions as it has Cindy Sheehan and those New Jersey widows who had the gall to demand a formal 9/11 inquiry.

But a president who flew from Crawford to Washington in a heartbeat to intervene in the medical case of a single patient, Terri Schiavo, has no business lecturing anyone about playing politics with tragedy. Eventually we're going to have to examine the administration's behavior before, during and after this storm as closely as its history before, during and after 9/11. We're going to have to ask if troops and matériel of all kinds could have arrived faster without the drain of national resources into a quagmire. We're going to have to ask why it took almost two days of people being without food, shelter and water for Mr. Bush to get back to Washington.

Most of all, we're going to have to face the reality that with this disaster, the administration has again increased our vulnerability to the terrorists we were supposed to be fighting after 9/11. As Richard Clarke, the former counterterrorism czar, pointed out to The Washington Post last week in talking about the fallout from the war in Iraq, there have been twice as many terrorist attacks outside Iraq in the three years after 9/11 than in the three years before. Now, thanks to Mr. Bush's variously incompetent, diffident and hubristic mismanagement of the attack by Katrina, he has sent the entire world a simple and unambiguous message: whatever the explanation, the United States is unable to fight its current war and protect homeland security at the same time.

The answers to what went wrong in Washington and on the Gulf Coast will come later, and, if the history of 9/11 is any guide, all too slowly, after the administration and its apologists erect every possible barrier to keep us from learning the truth. But as Americans dig out from Katrina and slouch toward another anniversary of Al Qaeda's strike, we have to acknowledge the full extent and urgency of our crisis. The world is more perilous than ever, and for now, to paraphrase Mr. Rumsfeld, we have no choice but to fight the war with the president we have.

www.nytimes.com

[michelle2677]

You don't feel for people who are dying because they didn't comprehend the enormity? Nobody comprehended the enormity until the levee broke. I have sympathy for every one of them trapped and possibly facing death, every one of them needs to be evacuated immediately.


Of COURSE I feel for them!! I didn't mean it to sound like I don't. If this had happened where I live, I wouldn't have left without my dogs, so I would have probably been one of those that stayed if I couldn't get out on my own. My goodness, I'm not a heartless b*tch that thinks just because they didn't heed the warnings, they should be left to die. I don't want that to happen to anyone.

[strandinthewind]

I think they should reason all they can and if that does not work, they should sedate by force anyone who refuses to leave and then put them in the boat. If the dart kills them that is unfortunate, but the odds are they would have died anyway and their stubborness will not have caused the death of another waiting and the forcible removing of them will not endanger the rescue operators, God bless them for their efforts BTW.
_________________________________________________________________

September 5, 2005
Rescuers, Going Door to Door, Find Stubbornness and Silence
By JERE LONGMAN
NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 4 - The boat pulled up to the living room window on Read Boulevard early Sunday afternoon, and a volunteer rescuer, Stanley Patrick, began yelling: "Mr. Robert! Mr. Robert! Can you hear me?"

There was no sound in response, only the lapping of water in this reeking New Orleans East neighborhood, where the rooftops of cars were still covered nearly a week after a levee broke and the city was inundated.

Mr. Patrick grabbed a sledgehammer, broke through the window of the tidy brick house and sloshed down a hallway into a back bedroom. It seemed unlikely that he would encounter anyone alive in this toxic water, in this fetid heat.

He found what he expected to find, an 83-year-old man, floating face down in stagnant water that had risen three and a half feet into the home. A Louisiana state trooper asked that the man not be identified in full because his family had not yet been notified.

Rescuers were told there might be a woman in the house, too.

"I didn't see her, but if he's dead, she's dead," Mr. Patrick said. "If he didn't leave, she didn't leave."

As rescue operations went on, the frustrations of the police and volunteers continued to mount Sunday, as a growing number of those who had stayed in their homes seemed to be dead, and many of those who remained alive refused to leave.

But Col. Terry Ebbert, director of the New Orleans Office of Homeland Security, said Sunday that he expected that nearly everyone would be removed from the city by Tuesday, as rescuers made block-by-block searches. He said he thought there were fewer than 1,000 residents left in the city. "We're going to remove them," he said.

"People don't want to come out," said Capt. Tim Bayard, commander of the narcotics division of the New Orleans Police Department, who is supervising the water rescue effort. "They say they have enough water and food to sustain themselves. They don't understand. It's going to take six to eight weeks before the electricity comes on."

The water has receded only about a foot in many places, he said, adding that it was still 20 feet deep in spots. "They need to come out," Captain Bayard said. But some residents fear that if they leave, their houses will be ransacked by looters, he said.

"They've already lost their cars," he said. "All they have left is their house. They don't want those animals stealing from them. Write that, animals. Anybody that would take advantage of this is hardly better than animals. Not the people who are taking food and water and clothing. Those stealing TV's and shooting at police. What can you do with a TV? There's no electricity."

Police have said that early rescue efforts were hampered when they encountered gunfire. It was also difficult to get enough of boats in the water because of bureaucratic foul-ups, Captain Bayard said. One day, as many as 300 boats were in the water, he said, but he could have used 1,000.

"There was a breakdown in communication and coordination, and some people wanting to be lone stars and not cooperate," he said, declining to lay blame but saying federal officials were not at fault. "We have the boats now. Unfortunately, people don't want to utilize them."

More than 10,000 people have been evacuated by boat, Captain Bayard said.

Captain Bayard said he was reluctant to force anyone to leave against their will. If a boat capsized in a struggle, police officers and evacuees could drown or be subjected to disease, he said. But if ordered to remove residents, he would do so, he said.

A volunteer rescuer, Morgan Lopez, said he and colleagues had all but forced four people from a home at Dwyer and Bundy Roads on Sunday, where a sea of raw sewage had reached the steps of the house. A woman, an 8-year-old child and the child's grandparents finally agreed to leave, Mr. Lopez said.

"We acted like we were cops," Mr. Lopez said. "We were not letting them stay in that stuff. They had a lot of new clothes. Maybe they were trying to protect that."

Mr. Lopez was one of about 40 workers from R&R Construction in Lake Charles, La., who volunteered their time in boats usually used for bass fishing.

Two other R&R workers, Mr. Patrick and Scott Lovett, were dispatched to Read Boulevard to look for what they thought was an older couple. A shotgun rested in the boat next to Mr. Lovett, who said shots had been fired near him on occasion during the past week.

"I don't feel like I'm in the U.S.," Mr. Lovett, 22, said. "I feel like I'm in a war. All the guns, the chaos."

Mr. Patrick, 44, an ironworker, said he had also rescued victims after Hurricane Andrew hit Louisiana in 1992.

The man on Read Boulevard may have tried to get into his attic and cut his way through the roof, but was perhaps too feeble or retreated in heat that would have topped 100 degrees, Mr. Patrick theorized, noting a ladder that led to the attic.

The house appeared to be on a slight incline, and perhaps the man thought he was safe, Mr. Patrick said.

"It's tragic," Mr. Patrick said. "The water rose in one night. These people probably didn't know. There's a lot more dead right here. I can smell it."

He predicted that the death toll would be "astronomical."

In coming days, the boat searches will shift from primarily a rescue mission to a recovery mission, once a sufficient morgue can be established, Captain Bayard said. Still, he said, the police, volunteers and the army would continue to look for survivors, and military trucks would patrol the streets in case those who had insisted to remain changed their minds - perhaps, he said, once they ran out of food or could no longer stand the smell of decay.

"It's frustrating because they don't want to help themselves," Captain Bayard said. "But if they are going to come out, we're going to be there to pick them up. We're not going to turn our backs on them."

www.nytimes.com

[strandinthewind]

I do not see how FEMA is going to get out of this one, W as well. FEMA kept saying since Monday that it was in charge and was organizing things and that W had given it orders. How then can it claim that it was not in charge since Monday? It cannot have its cake and eat it too. Anyway, here is the article.

September 5, 2005

After Failures, Government Officials Play Blame Game
By SCOTT SHANE

This article was reported by Scott Shane, Eric Lipton and Christopher Drew and written by Mr. Shane.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 4 - As the Bush administration tried to show a more forceful effort to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina, government officials on Sunday escalated their criticism and sniping over who was to blame for the problems plaguing the initial response.

While rescuers were still trying to reach people stranded by the floods, perhaps the only consensus among local, state and federal officials was that the system had failed.

Some federal officials said uncertainty over who was in charge had contributed to delays in providing aid and imposing order, and officials in Louisiana complained that Washington disaster officials had blocked some aid efforts.

Local and state resources were so weakened, said Michael Chertoff, the homeland security secretary, that in the future federal authorities need to take "more of an upfront role earlier on, when we have these truly ultracatastrophes."

But furious state and local officials insisted that the real problem was that the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which Mr. Chertoff's department oversees, failed to deliver urgently needed help and, through incomprehensible red tape, even thwarted others' efforts to help.

"We wanted soldiers, helicopters, food and water," said Denise Bottcher, press secretary for Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco of Louisiana. "They wanted to negotiate an organizational chart."

Mayor C. Ray Nagin of New Orleans expressed similar frustrations. "We're still fighting over authority," he told reporters on Saturday. "A bunch of people are the boss. The state and federal government are doing a two-step dance."

In one of several such appeals, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York, called on President Bush on Sunday to appoint an independent national commission to examine the relief effort. She also said that she intends to introduce legislation to remove FEMA from the Department of Homeland Security and restore its previous status as an independent agency with cabinet-level status.

Mr. Chertoff tried to deflect the criticism of his department and FEMA by saying there would be time later to decide what went wrong.

"Whatever the criticisms and the after-action report may be about what was right and what was wrong looking back, what would be a horrible tragedy would be to distract ourselves from avoiding further problems because we're spending time talking about problems that have already occurred," he told Tim Russert on "Meet the Press" on NBC.

But local officials, who still feel overwhelmed by the continuing tragedy, demanded accountability and as well as action.

"Why did it happen? Who needs to be fired?" asked Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, south of New Orleans.

Far from deferring to state or local officials, FEMA asserted its authority and made things worse, Mr. Broussard complained on "Meet the Press."

When Wal-Mart sent three trailer trucks loaded with water, FEMA officials turned them away, he said. Agency workers prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel, and on Saturday they cut the parish's emergency communications line, leading the sheriff to restore it and post armed guards to protect it from FEMA, Mr. Broussard said.

One sign of the continuing battle over who was in charge was Governor Blanco's refusal to sign an agreement proposed by the White House to share control of National Guard forces with the federal authorities.

Under the White House plan, Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré would oversee both the National Guard and the active duty federal troops, reporting jointly to the president and Ms. Blanco.

"She would lose control when she had been in control from the very beginning," said Ms. Bottcher, the governor's press secretary.

Ms. Bottcher was one of several officials yesterday who said she believed FEMA had interfered with the delivery of aid, including offers from the mayor of Chicago, Richard M. Daley, and the governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson.

Adam Sharp, a spokesman for Senator Mary L. Landrieu, Democrat of Louisiana, said the problem was not who was in command. FEMA repeatedly held up assistance that could have been critical, he said.

"FEMA has just been very slow to make these decisions," Mr. Sharp said.

In a clear slap at Mr. Chertoff and the FEMA director, Michael D. Brown, Governor Blanco announced Saturday that she had hired James Lee Witt, the director of FEMA during the Clinton administration, to advise her on the recovery.

Nearly every emergency worker told agonizing stories of communications failures, some of them most likely fatal to victims. Police officers called Senator Landrieu's Washington office because they could not reach commanders on the ground in New Orleans, Mr. Sharp said.

Dr. Ross Judice, chief medical officer for a large ambulance company, recounted how on Tuesday, unable to find out when helicopters would land to pick up critically ill patients at the Superdome, he walked outside and discovered that two helicopters, donated by an oil services company, had been waiting in the parking lot.

Louisiana and New Orleans have received a total of about $750 million in federal emergency and terrorism preparedness grants in the last four years, Homeland Security Department officials said.

Mr. Chertoff said he recognized that the local government's capacity to respond to the disaster was severely compromised by the hurricane and flood.

"What happened here was that essentially, the demolishment of that state and local infrastructure, and I think that really caused the cascading series of breakdowns," he said.

But Mayor Nagin said the root of the breakdown was the failure of the federal government to deliver relief supplies and personnel quickly.

"They kept promising and saying things would happen," he said. "I was getting excited and telling people that. They kept making promises and promises."

Scott Shane and Eric Lipton reported from Washington, and Christopher Drew from New Orleans. Jeremy Alford contributed reporting from Baton Rouge, La., and Gardiner Harris from Lafayette, La.

www.nytimes.com

[strandinthewind]

Lawmakers Blast Officials For Inadequate Levee System

Monday, September 05, 2005



WASHINGTON — Projects designed to keep New Orleans from flooding in a hurricane prepared the city for a probable scenario, not the worst-case scenario.

The network that was supposed to protect the below-sea-level city from flooding was built to withstand a Category 3 hurricane (search), the Army Corps of Engineers said. It was overwhelmed when Katrina's winds and storm surge came ashore a week ago as a Category 4 storm.

That has left some lawmakers wondering why officials only considered the consequences of a moderate storm.

"What that, in essence, says is that you're not going to worry about the biggest disasters that could occur, you're only going to worry about the smaller ones," said Rep. David Obey of Wisconsin, the top Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee.

"How many times do we have to see disaster overwhelm our preparedness before we recognize that we are playing Russian roulette with people's lives, with their livelihoods and with the life of whole communities?" Obey said.

Louisiana lawmakers have long lamented that Corps of Engineers programs designed to protect New Orleans and surrounding areas were starved for cash.

Corps officials, said, however, that funneling more money into the agency's levee repair programs wouldn't have totally averted disaster. The infrastructure around the city was designed to withstand only a Category 3.

Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, Corps of Engineers commander, said some flooding would have occurred even if the remaining repair projects planned for the levees had been completed.

The infrastructure assumed that a storm bigger than a Category 3 has a very low probability of occurring.

When the project was designed about 30 years ago, the corps believed it was protecting the city from an event that might occur only every 200 or 300 years.

"We had an assurance that 99.5 percent this would be OK. We, unfortunately, have had that .5 percent activity here," Strock said.

Former Sen. John Breaux, D-La., said everyone has known for years that the levees wouldn't stop a "once every hundred years" storm that could put New Orleans under 20 feet of water.

The complaints and problems with corps funding go back to the Carter administration, and presidents since then have tried to draw money from the agency's projects to pay for other priorities.

Mike Parker, a former Mississippi congressman who left as civilian head of the corps in 2002 after criticizing the White House budget office, said the funding problems occurred through Democratic and Republican administrations.

"The corps requested money to complete the projects through the years, but the funding level wasn't given to them in order to do it," he said.

It's the Bush administration taking the brunt of the heat now.

House Majority Whip Roy Blunt, R-Mo., said New Orleans got an infusion of money for flood control projects in the late 1990s.

"There was less money spent after that huge project, as, of course, there would be," Blunt said. "Any time you do a big building project, when that project's over, the next year you spend less money."

Blunt suggested there might be a limit to the amount that federal programs can do.

"This is not something that government can always prevent," he said. "You know, God is actually bigger and nature is bigger than we are, and this is one of those instances."

Two Corps of Engineers projects were in place to control flooding and prepare for hurricane damage in southern Louisiana. One was a flood control project with channel and pumping station improvements for Southeast Louisiana; the other was a project to protect residents between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River levee from surges driven by a fast-moving category 3 storm.

Each year since 2001, the corps asked for much more money for those two projects than the Bush administration was willing to request or Congress was willing to spend, according to figures compiled by Sen. Mary Landrieu (news, bio, voting record), D-La.

In addition, funding for the two programs declined between fiscal years 2001 and 2004, although both saw slight increases this year. Much of the federal budget outside homeland security and defense has been held down while the administration tries to control deficits under control.

Advocates also have pressed for money to restore the eroding Louisiana coastline as additional hurricane protection.

In the future, Breaux said, the federal government must think about a system of levees designed for the once-a-century storm.

"They're going to have to be built stronger. They're going to have to be built higher. They're going to have to be maintained," he said.

"It looks like Baghdad underwater out there."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168501,00.html

[strandinthewind]

Look at what Houston did in 48 hours as opposed to what FEMA, the people in charge, did in about 120 or so hours - I mean really :mad: (emphasis supplied)

Houston Pitches In

Monday, September 05, 2005

By Greta Van Susteren

I could write story after story about what I hear from the evacuees at the Houston Astrodome (search) and each story would break your heart. You walk through the Astrodome (or the other shelters) and you feel a mixture of grief for the evacuees and inspiration from the many people trying to help. As you know, words are grossly inadequate in explaining the depth of the despair that is felt. The video from New Orleans (search), Mississippi (search), Alabama (search) and all the shelters better conveys this nightmare. So today I will leave it to the video we show on FOX News Channel to explain the pain. Video is much better than me trying to tell you in print... it is raw.

There are a few things I would like to say about Houston/Texas, etc. I have been here in Houston for many days and have a very small world — meaning that I only know what is going on in the area immediately around me (Houston.) I am "wall-to-wall" Houston relief efforts. I know that my colleagues in New Orleans, Mississippi, etc., are seeing things that I am not. From time to time I hear their reports and the reports are bleak (to put it lightly.) Here in Houston I almost feel like I am in a magical city — there is an incredible outpouring of help. You would be inspired by the help to the people who need it so much. I have spoken to literally hundreds of evacuees and each — 100 percent of those I have spoken to — are in awe of what Texas has done. Each expresses enormous gratitude to the people of Texas.

I have been to the three major shelters in Houston — each is unbelievable and each, while housing thousands, was set up overnight. People don't wait in lines for services like medicine and food — instead they get provided for quickly and with dignity. Every place you turn around, there is help. The shelters and volunteers are efficient and treat people with great dignity.

I went to the newest shelter last night — the Houston City Convention Center and I was very impressed. They have air mattresses (not just cots), thicker air mattresses for older people so did not have a hard time in and out of bed, showers, game rooms for the kids, food looked great, a computer room, library, movie theatre size screen for movies, clothes, medical care, etc.... and all done within hours of making the decision to do it! I watched a crowd of kids under two feet tall playing the game "duck, duck, goose" with volunteers. The kids were all having fun — squealing with laughter. The kids are kept busy by volunteers so that the parents can address the obviously more serious and distressing matters — missing family members, no homes and no money.

You would not believe what the city of Houston (and Texas) accomplished in less than 48 hours! I really have never seen anything like this! The George R. Brown Convention Center is so clean you can eat off the floor and the service appears to be top notch. I watched carefully the service to make sure I got it right and I asked people staying there. You can get medical care and even dental care right on the premises... all set up in less than 48 hours! I met private citizens — all pitching in. I was told corporations were also pitching in — one local company in Houston came in and built 80 showers in the Convention Center within hours of the Friday morning decision that they needed to open still another shelter. The help to fellow Americans here in Texas is not only extraordinary — but the fact that it is so well coordinated with no time is mind-boggling.

I have been stopped by many local Houstonians thanking me for the nice things I have been saying on the air about Texas and Houston. I have told each of them, "Don't thank me, I am only saying what I see." And, yes, I am seeing a much different picture than the devastation seen by my colleagues in other states.

Let me make one thing plain — yes, things are going well in Houston but the evacuees have been through hell and that hell will continue. No matter how great the support is here in Houston, it does not erase the immense loss. In time, there will also be too much pressure on this area alone. We can't expect Texas to do this alone and they can't. They need other people and places to help. They need contributions so please give. I do know that many other states and citizens are helping a great deal — this help is great — but I suspect more help will be needed. I know it will be much appreciated. This is a BIG job!

I have seen some odd things outside — not inside — the Astrodome. There is one fellow with a guitar strapped around his neck who keeps coming up to me at our live site location asking me to put him on the air. He says, "I am the first to have written a song about Hurricane Katrina." He is not an evacuee. I have politely said to him many times that we are not profiling those who are writing songs... we are trying to get the word about what is going on at the Astrodome and the various ways people can help. I am not sure he truly "gets it."

. . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168491,00.html

[gldstwmn]

I looked for this - where is it being reported :eek:

Supposedly reported on MSNBC last night.

[gldstwmn]

CNN reports "Senate's Frist calls for hearings on response" :eek: He is a backstabbing opportunist (just ask Lott) - do you think he is going after W :eek:

He's going to run for president.

[gldstwmn]

Well, now that I think about it, W said the initial evacuation of NOLA and MS was unacceptable. So, W probably is on board and wants to have a kangaroo court stacked in his favor and one that he can control. Interestingly, I have to wonder what kind of priviledge FEMA will assert to stymie the hearings. the plan was known publicly, so there can be no security issues. Moreover, they are on public television with outrageous quotes. So, much of the evidence is there. It is just not going to be pretty.

Rumour has it and I do underscore rumour, that President Bush in a private meeting with Governor Blanco tried to get her to sign a document taking some of the responsiblity off of FEMA, Homeland Security and himself. Reportedly, she refused to sign. As soon as I have more concrete information on this, you can bet your bippy I will post it. :lol:

[stargazer99]

Janet, please, be realistic. Of course at least one person would die. Many people REFUSED to leave. Should they have been hit on the head and kidnapped? As for the poor, it's so easy to say "more should have been done! More should have been done! Obviously if one person died someone screwed up!!" Here we are in the comfort of our homes. We weren't there trying to get people out. We weren't there trying our best to save as many people as possible. But we still have the nerve to sit here and gripe how those people just didn't do good enough, according to us, in all our wisdom and vast knowledge about hurricane preparation and relief. Perhaps you know of some of the magical ways technology could have prevented every single death? If so, please alert the proper authorities.

It is absolutely absurd to argue that anyone wanted this massive amount of death.

While I agree with you, Nancy, it's unrealistic to say that every single death could have been prevented, what I think most people have a problem with is the length of time it took for any real rescue effort to get in there and get those people out. And while I'm sure there were many people who just flat refused to leave, I'd be willing to bet that was the minority. New Orleans has an ungodly number of poeple living in poverty. In fact, 50% of children living in New Orleans are living in poverty! When you have no car and no money, how are you supposed to get out of there on your own? There were also many physically handicapped people who were stuck.

And while I don't know a lot about hurricane preparedness, the Louisiana government sure does. They've been begging for years for money to fix the levees, to no avail. They had drills addressing disasters of this magnitude. And the governor sent a very detailed letter to the White House before the hurricane, outlining exactly what they would need both from a money standpoint and a people/equipment standpoint in responding to this hurricane.

What I find "absolutely absured" is the fact that we didn't have any real rescue effort in place until 4 days after the hurricane. And that FEMA didn't accept any of the many offers of resources and equipment from a number of other states. And that the head of FEMA had the nerve to say that the people themselves are partly responsible because they didn't get out. And the lack of communication, where they didn't even realize there were people trapped in the convention center when it had been reported for days. And the fact that there were numerous reporters there, helicopters capturing news footage, etc., but we couldn't get the military in there for several days?

And while it's easy to say that we shouldn't criticize because we didn't go down there ourselves to help, isn't it the government's job to do so? To be prepared for disasters of this magnitude, and have a plan in place when it does happen? And to act on that plan, not 4 days later, but immediately? Especially when they had warning this hurricane was coming?

So yes, it was impossible to prevent any death. But the number of deaths that occurred, due to the fact that it took four days to get help to these people, is totally unacceptable.

- Mary

[gldstwmn]

Sorry if this was posted already, I can't keep up and reposting doesn't really matter anyway.

http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=URI:urn:newsml:reuters.com:20050904:MTFH96996_2005-09-04_21-23-41_N04630362:1

Asked to say a few words from the pulpit, Rice, a preacher's daughter, said: "The Lord Jesus Christ is going to come on time." She added: "If we just wait."

Jesus christ! These are the people in charge of the country? That's the kind of message they're sending to the people? Juxtapose that with the clip linked to earlier from crooks and liars (http://www.crooksandliars.com/) (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-the-Press-Broussard.wmv) and she's basically telling the dying to wait, just hold off your drowning for a while. This is insignificant though, none of this matters, all that matters is what's going in but to comfort the people by telling the dying to keep waiting? To even link this in with God is disgraceful. People aren't waiting for God missy, they're waiting for you and your f*cking people.

I guess everyone over there is in bed now. No more updates?

Believe me Lux, we are all getting more freaked out by the minute. :shocked:

[gldstwmn]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050905/ts_latimes/heheldtheirlivesinhistinyhands&printer=1
He Held Their Lives in His Tiny Hands

BATON ROUGE, La. — In the chaos that was Causeway Boulevard, this group of refugees stood out: a 6-year-old boy walking down the road, holding a 5-month-old, surrounded by five toddlers who followed him around as if he were their leader.

This broke my heart.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/sad/bncry.gif

[David]

But as Americans dig out from Katrina and slouch toward another anniversary of Al Qaeda's strike, we have to acknowledge the full extent and urgency of our crisis.Do you think Rich is dropping in a reference here to "The Second Coming"?

The Yeats stanza goes:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[strandinthewind]

Rumour has it and I do underscore rumour, that President Bush in a private meeting with Governor Blanco tried to get her to sign a document taking some of the responsiblity off of FEMA, Homeland Security and himself. Reportedly, she refused to sign. As soon as I have more concrete information on this, you can bet your bippy I will post it. :lol:


Oh honey - you wanna talk rumors - people have told me they have heard about succesionist meetings :eek: Imagine the state that controls somewhat greater than 1/3 of the nation's oil and the delta of the Mississippi succeeding :eek:

and - while we are on the topic of conspiracy theory (sort of) - W and crewe are not opposed to taking the opportunity to exploit a disaster (invasion on Iraq after 9/11 anyone) - LA has some of the richest oil fields in the world and it controls, again, greater than 1/3 of the nation's oil. How that fits into the delay in the rescue of the poorest of the poor I am unsure and it probably does not. But, still, the coicindence with the oil is a little jarring.

Finally, www.cnn.com is posting pic.'s of the dead bodies floating in the water - and that is not a rumor :eek:

[strandinthewind]

Do you think Rich is dropping in a reference here to "The Second Coming"?

The Yeats stanza goes:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

I think it is glaring - again, the man can turn a phrase :nod:

Interestingly, the Zionists must be filled with glee at the thought.

[gldstwmn]

Oh honey - you wanna talk rumors - people have told me they have heard about succesionist meetings :eek: Imagine the state that controls somewhat greater than 1/3 of the nation's oil and the delta of the Mississippi succeeding :eek:



Jeffersonia? The president of Jefferson Parrish said it on national television yesterday during his appearance on MTP.

[strandinthewind]

Jeffersonia? The president of Jefferson Parrish said it on national television yesterday during his appearance on MTP.

In the South perhaps more so than the remainder of the Union, there are usually a few crazies calling for succession. However, from what I hear, this is not the crazies - though I am sure they would readily join in.

[strandinthewind]

There is also a rumorm somewhat substantiated but still a rumor, that parts of NOLA East and most of St. Bernard Parish will not be rebuilt and the people will be relocated to higher areas. It will be interesting to see what will happen. Personally, I think we have the technology to build strong enough levees - for example, the levees almost held this time and many of them are 100 years old and held. Time will tell.

[amber]

In the South perhaps more so than the remainder of the Union, there are usually a few crazies calling for succession. However, from what I hear, this is not the crazies - though I am sure they would readily join in.
You mean secession, right? :rolleyes: Please. And wouldn't the federal gov't. Pull that oil control right out, and put it somewhere else???

[strandinthewind]

You mean secession, right? :rolleyes: Please. And wouldn't the federal gov't. Pull that oil control right out, and put it somewhere else???


Yep - once again, I apologize for my inability to type :cool:

[gldstwmn]

You mean secession, right? :rolleyes: Please. And wouldn't the federal gov't. Pull that oil control right out, and put it somewhere else???

I don't know that it is possible to do that.

[gldstwmn]

There is also a rumorm somewhat substantiated but still a rumor, that parts of NOLA East and most of St. Bernard Parish will not be rebuilt and the people will be relocated to higher areas.

So Hastert's bulldoze comment was really that far off?

[strandinthewind]

I don't know that it is possible to do that.

It is not. Much of that oil comes from the ground in Louisiana. I guess they could rebuild the refineries in Houston or some other port. But, that would take time, though I am sure FEMA could have them up in two days :rolleyes:

Also, the Mississippi is the exit port for so many products, like grain, produced in the US, that building an infrastructure to recover from that would be difficult and time consuming.

I mean the Fed.'s cannot build another Mississippi River :shrug:

[amber]

I don't know that it is possible to do that.
Why? Does the state of LA actually own all that equipment and those refineries?

[strandinthewind]

So Hastert's bulldoze comment was really that far off?

I think he was talking about the whole city and most of the more Southern regions of LA. Interestingly, he did not make the same comment about MS, which voted for W - do the math.

[strandinthewind]

Why? Does the state of LA actually own all that equipment and those refineries?

They would if they seceeded :shrug: and I can assure you that LA would make it far more economically beneficial for them to stay right where they are as opposed to rebuilding somewhere else.

[amber]

They would if they seceeded :shrug: and I can assure you that LA would make it far more economically beneficial for them to stay right where they are as opposed to rebuilding somewhere else.
What do you mean? LA would make it more economically beneficial for who? :confused:
Also, if they seceeded, but the federal gov't owns the refineries and other equipement, I find it hard to believe that the fed. gov't would just go "oh, darn! They seceeded! Well, I guess they get to keep all that stuff, even if it belongs to us" :laugh:
But, I'm sure this will never happen, anyway.

[strandinthewind]

What do you mean? LA would make it more economically beneficial for who? :confused:
Also, if they seceeded, but the federal gov't owns the refineries and other equipement, I find it hard to believe that the fed. gov't would just go "oh, darn! They seceeded! Well, I guess they get to keep all that stuff, even if it belongs to us" :laugh:
But, I'm sure this will never happen, anyway.


Bless your heart :laugh: The Fed. Govt. does not own the refineries, the oil companies do. The Fed. Govt. does not own the oil in the ground, essentially the owners of that property do.

[gldstwmn]

Why? Does the state of LA actually own all that equipment and those refineries?

Any entity operating in a seperate country would be subject to the laws of said country.

[amber]

Bless your heart :laugh: The Fed. Govt. does not own the refineries, the oil companies do. The Fed. Govt. does not own the oil in the ground, essentially the owners of that property do.
oh. Well, I thought since oil and our gov't always seem to go hand in hand, that it really wouldn't matter, the gov't absolutely would have control over it, in some way or another. :)

[strandinthewind]

Go to cnn.com for video of Sean Penn and Douglas Brinkley's take on what they saw:

I agree with them in the sense that if you have a shallow bottom boat and are willing and know what the hell you are doing go and volunteer.

Having said that, many have done just that and the autorities in the area like the Coast Guard are going a great job and are to be commended. There are just not enough of them and people are dying as a result.

[strandinthewind]

START THE PUMPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

17th Street Canal breach fixed

Monday, 1:55 p.m.

By Jeff Meitrodt
Staff writer

With assistance from the Army Corps of Engineers, repairs have been completed to the 17th Street Canal breach, responsible for the post-Hurricane Katrina deluge into New Orleans, the state Department of Transportation and Development announced during its mid-day briefing.

The next step, transportation public affairs officer Cleo Allen said, is to get the floodwater out of the city. Authorities said the Mounes Pumping station has power and they expect to start it up this afternoon.

“We will get the smaller pumps, which should dry out the larger pumps,’’ he said.

Authorities are uncertain about the condition of the 17th Street Canal pumps, and Corps engineers are trying to determine whether the canal’s walls are stable, Allen said. “When that happens we will have considerable more capacity,’’ he said.

Crews will move next to the London Avenue canal, he said.

Allen also updated news the media on evacuations in St. Bernard Parish. In the past three to four days, 5,000 to 6,000 people were shuttled from Chalmette to Algiers Point using the ferry.

In addition, Lt. Lawrence McLeary of the State Police addressed rumors of state police officers resigning rather than serving in New Orleans.

“I�d like to stop that misinformation right now. The fact is there have been no such resignations by the State Police,’’ McLeary said. “In fact, 14 retired troopers who retired in the last 24 months have been rehired. There have been no troopers resigning their commission for refusing to go to New Orleans.'' [COMMENT - this is interesting and I am glad to see it!!!!!]

www.nola.com

BTW - my brother saw them doing this yesterday as he was near the Canal. He said the effort was jaw dropping.

[strandinthewind]

Tensions color Bush, Blanco meeting

Gov. Kathleen Blanco canceled a scheduled trip Monday to visit Louisiana evacuees in Houston shelters to stay in Baton Rouge to meet with President Bush.

Blanco Communications Director Bob Mann said the governor did not learn about the Bush visit until early Monday morning.

“We had no idea the president was coming,� Mann said.

Tension between the Blanco and Bush administrations has surfaced in recent days as state and federal officials try to coordinate recovery efforts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. The Blanco administration clearly wanted to express their irritation with the communication about the president's trip.

Blanco officials said they had heard that the president might make a visit and had been trying to get details. As of late Sunday night, FEMA officials told Blanco that the president was not planning a visit, Mann said.

One key point of coordination is the military effort to restore order and begin rebuilding infrastructure.

As of Monday morning, the National Guard from Louisiana and other states had deployed 13,268 troops in the 13 parish area affected by the storm, Louisiana National Guard spokesman Pete Schneider said. In route are 7,845 more National Guardsmen, so that by Tuesday morning 21,113 guardsmen will be in Louisiana.

Parallel to that effort, the regular Army 82nd Airborne and 1st Cavalry divisions are sending in 7,000 troops to Louisiana to arrive in the next couple of days.

www.nola.com

Comment - WHY THE FU*K DOES IT TAKE A WEEK OR MORE TO GET THE NECESSARY NUMBER OF TROOPS :mad: