Bush's approval rating falls to new low

[estranged4life]

Bush's approval rating falls to new low

53 percent say they disapprove of president in new Post-ABC survey

By By Richard Morin and Dan Balz

Rising gas prices and ongoing bloodshed in Iraq continue to take their toll on President Bush, whose standing with the public has sunk to an all-time low, according to the latest Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The survey found Bush's job approval rating at 45 percent, down seven points since January and the lowest ever recorded for the president in Post-ABC surveys. Fifty-three percent disapproved of the job Bush is doing.

The war has been a drag on Bush's presidency for many months, but his Iraq approval ratings in the new poll were little changed from two months ago, despite widespread violence, a rash of U.S. casualties, antiwar protests outside the president's Texas ranch and a growing debate about reducing U.S. troop levels.

What may have pushed Bush's overall ratings down in the latest poll is pervasive dissatisfaction over soaring gasoline prices. Two-thirds of those surveyed said gas prices are causing financial hardship to them or their families. Gas prices stand to go even higher after Hurricane Katrina's rampage through the oil-rich Gulf of Mexico.

More ominously for the president, six in 10 Americans said there are steps the administration could take to reduce gas prices. Slightly more than a third say the recent run-up has been due to factors beyond the administration's control.

"I supported him last year," said Gina Coleman, 29, a homemaker living in Camden County, N.J. "I wouldn't vote for him again. It's gas prices, the war -- just the way he has been handling things. The rise in gas is something that has been happening for a long time, and the prices are getting worse. This makes me feel more negative about him, definitely."

Bush also received negative marks for his handling of immigration, the economy and Social Security, although his ratings on the latter two were not as low as they were two months ago. A majority of Americans supported his handling of the campaign against terrorism.

Bad news for Congress, Democrats, too
The poll numbers paint a portrait of national frustration with the direction and leadership of the country, which, if not reversed in coming months, is likely to color the environment for next year's midterm elections, putting incumbents in both parties on the defensive.

Dissatisfaction is not limited to the president. Fewer than four in 10 Americans -- 37 percent -- approve of the way the Republican-controlled Congress is doing its job, the lowest rating for lawmakers in nearly eight years.

The survey also provided bad news for Democratic leaders, who are judged as offering Bush only tepid opposition. Slightly more than half of those surveyed expressed dissatisfaction with congressional Democrats for not opposing Bush more aggressively.

Self-identified Democrats were particularly impatient. More than three in four said congressional Democrats have not gone far enough to oppose Bush on Iraq or on administration policies in general.

"Somebody needs to speak up," said Michelle Burgess, 41, a home health aide in St. Louis. "Enough is enough. I don't understand why we're over there in Iraq or what he's doing on other issues. There are too many lives being lost."

Independents were similarly dissatisfied with Democratic leaders for not challenging the president over the war and other issues, with six in 10 saying Democrats have been too meek.

Public attitudes toward the war have not changed significantly since the first of the year, the poll found. Slightly more than four in 10 -- 42 percent -- approved of the job Bush is doing in Iraq; 57 percent disapproved, unchanged in recent months. Slightly more than half -- 53 percent -- said the war was not worth it, while 46 percent said it was, identical to the results of a Post-ABC poll two months ago. By a 51 percent to 38 percent ratio, the public said the United States is winning the war, despite mounting casualties and insurgent attacks.

A majority (54 percent) continued to say the United States should keep military forces in Iraq until civil order is restored there; 44 percent said U.S. forces should be withdrawn. Six in 10 opposed announcing a timetable for withdrawal. Only about one in eight -- 13 percent -- said U.S. forces should be withdrawn immediately.

Michael Strickland, 31, a factory worker who lives in Pine Bluff, Ark., said he opposed the war before the United States invaded in March 2003: " It's just another Vietnam. . . . No matter what we do over there, they are going to kill us."

His solution: withdraw -- but not immediately. "Don't tell them when we're going to leave. . . . But do it in a reasonable time frame -- six months to a year. Even if we leave, it can't get any worse over there."

These ambivalent feelings about the war and Bush's policies in Iraq are felt even by many of his supporters who continue to back the U.S. invasion.

'Really mixed feelings'
"I have really mixed feelings, like probably the whole country has," said Wayne Almlie, 51, a warehouse worker and part-time pastor in Des Moines, who said he approves of Bush's overall performance. "We need to stay the course. I really think we do. The whole region would disintegrate if we would pull out. . . . I'd hate to have to be making those decision."

Despite escalating bloodshed, the struggles to approve a draft constitution and the well-covered antiwar protests led by Cindy Sheehan, whose son was killed in Iraq, the survey found little evidence that antiwar sentiment has increased the past two months.

The survey also found that Sheehan, who has been protesting the war outside Bush's ranch near Crawford, Tex., has become the most visible symbol of the antiwar movement. Fully three in four Americans have heard or read about her.

Sheehan met last year with Bush at an event for military families and has been seeking another meeting with him. Slightly more than half of the country -- 52 percent -- said Bush should meet her again; 46 percent said he should not. Fifty-three percent supported what she is doing and 42 percent opposed.

The poll found that opposition to the war has deepened among Democrats. Two months ago, two in three Democrats said they strongly disapproved of Bush's handling of Iraq; that has risen to three in four. Over that same period, the proportion of Democrats who described themselves as "angry" over Bush's Iraq policies has risen from 36 percent to 46 percent.

The poll found that Sheehan's activities may have helped increase support for the war among Bush supporters. Although eight in 10 Americans said Sheehan's protests have not changed their attitudes toward the war, one in 10 said she has made them more likely to support the conflict -- the same proportion that said she has made them less likely to support the war.

A total of 1,006 randomly selected adults were interviewed by telephone Aug. 25-28. The margin of sampling error for the results is plus or minus three percentage points.

[gldstwmn]

"I supported him last year," said Gina Coleman, 29, a homemaker living in Camden County, N.J. "I wouldn't vote for him again.

How could you vote for him again Gina? He's in his second term. :confused:

[David]

How could you vote for him again Gina? He's in his second term. :confused:that's what gets me. These dumb bunnies who are beginning to disapprove voted for him twice! What did they think they were getting?

If you bring a dog home from the pound, it might bark a little. That's what dogs do. Who but a moron would be surprised or disappointed that their new dog barks from time to time?

You twice vote to stick a guy into the highest office in the land, who can't even speak English (or any other language, as far as I know) & who has never in his life shown any tiny sign of rationality, intelligence, foresight or knowledge of anything in this world or out of it, & he keeps the country in a perpetual state of warfare & near-medieval darkness throughout his terms .................... AND YOU'RE SURPRISED?!

Get a clue, dumb bunnies.

Of course, requesting that dumb bunnies get a clue may be just as foolish as asking the dog not to bark.

[wondergirl9847]

He'd better get off his a$$ and go tour the damage in Louisiana and Mississippi. :mad:

[estranged4life]

is circling N'Orleans in Air Force One at this exact moment...I betcha he is figuring out how to make more $$$$ off this disaster for his @#$%^&* gasoline business buddies of the world as he circles like the vulture that he is...

Too bad we couldnt see for real what the intro music of Megadeth's "Blackmail the Universe" from the "The System Has Failed" disc plays...That Air Force One gets taken out of the sky, be better to see if happen here in the US instead of in the Middle East.

Brian "George Bush-Your system has FAILED!!!" j.

[David]

He'd better get off his a$$ and go tour the damage in Louisiana and Mississippi. :mad:Christy ... really ... he'll just get in the way.

:lol: :lol:

[SuzeQuze]

...
You twice vote to stick a guy into the highest office in the land, who can't even speak English (or any other language, as far as I know) & who has never in his life shown any tiny sign of rationality, intelligence, foresight or knowledge of anything in this world or out of it, & he keeps the country in a perpetual state of warfare & near-medieval darkness throughout his terms .................... AND YOU'RE SURPRISED?!

Get a clue, dumb bunnies.

Of course, requesting that dumb bunnies get a clue may be just as foolish as asking the dog not to bark.

:laugh: :laugh: Use your heads people. You don't have it to do over again, you voted for him along with many other efftards, TWICE! There's no turning back. :distress:

[gldstwmn]

:laugh: :laugh: Use your heads people. You don't have it to do over again, you voted for him along with many other efftards, TWICE! There's no turning back. :distress:

Never say never. :shrug: This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[estranged4life]

Never say never. :shrug: This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

harbinger of bad news, But the 'camel' was lifeless years ago...It never felt its back being broken whatsoever.

[gldstwmn]

harbinger of bad news, But the 'camel' was lifeless years ago...It never felt its back being broken whatsoever.

Touche'. :)

[SuzeQuze]

Never say never. :shrug: This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I don't know what you mean by that. :confused: Do you mean impeachment?

Incidentally I heard an old audio clip of Cheney talking about Iraq, during Bush I's term, and he said that going in there and taking out Saddam would mean having to help build a new government which would likely result in a quagmire. :shocked:

[gldstwmn]

I don't know what you mean by that. :confused: Do you mean impeachment?

Incidentally I heard an old audio clip of Cheney talking about Iraq, during Bush I's term, and he said that going in there and taking out Saddam would mean having to help build a new government which would likely result in a quagmire. :shocked:

I didn't mean anything specific, Suze. I don't know what's going to happen. The guy's got a lower approval rating than Nixon at the time of impeachment articles being drawn. The news doesn't want to talk about it but we all know the **** is getting pretty deep. Something's got to give, wouldn't you think?

[SuzeQuze]

I didn't mean anything specific, Suze. I don't know what's going to happen. The guy's got a lower approval rating than Nixon at the time of impeachment articles being drawn. The news doesn't want to talk about it but we all know the **** is getting pretty deep. Something's got to give, wouldn't you think?

Yes. I'm pretty tired today, a little slow. But you meant what I thought you meant. I'm happy people are waking up while simultaneously being sickened by the path of destruction that had to be laid before people could see him for who he is.

[estranged4life]

Yes. I'm pretty tired today, a little slow. But you meant what I thought you meant. I'm happy people are waking up while simultaneously being sickened by the path of destruction that had to be laid before people could see him for who he is.

to Deb (She asked "How many more years of Bush do we have left?", My reply "Not enough"), At least I didnt vote for him :nod:

[lbelle1214]

Let me just jump in here and be the tread killer. Who are they polling anyway? The ones they called before to see if they changed their minds? What about his supporters? Let's see...go to "Texas Military Families Foundation"...click under "You Don't Speak for Me, Cindy!" tour which started in California and ended in Waco just this past weekend. Just one of many. A majority of the soldiers I have spoken with support Bush (I didn't not say all, o.k.?) and I have spoken with many. Their families may not be happy with him, for purely selfish reasons of course. But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments. *gets off soap box* :)

[The Tower]

I didn't mean anything specific, Suze. I don't know what's going to happen. The guy's got a lower approval rating than Nixon at the time of impeachment articles being drawn. The news doesn't want to talk about it but we all know the **** is getting pretty deep. Something's got to give, wouldn't you think?
You would think so- however, the American public is really, really stupid. Need evidence? The looters in New Orleans.

[The Tower]

But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments.
All I have to say to that is- f*ck that ****.

[estranged4life]

the American public is really, really stupid.

reality TV is proof of this also :nod:

[SuzeQuze]

Let me just jump in here and be the tread killer. Who are they polling anyway? The ones they called before to see if they changed their minds? What about his supporters? Let's see...go to "Texas Military Families Foundation"...click under "You Don't Speak for Me, Cindy!" tour which started in California and ended in Waco just this past weekend. Just one of many. A majority of the soldiers I have spoken with support Bush (I didn't not say all, o.k.?) and I have spoken with many. Their families may not be happy with him, for purely selfish reasons of course. But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments. *gets off soap box* :)

From the article "A total of 1,006 randomly selected adults were interviewed by telephone Aug. 25-28. The margin of sampling error for the results is plus or minus three percentage points."

It is a random survey. What does the disapproval of the president's job have to do with supporting the troops? My words are not the ones making the mission futile, it's the effort itself that is causing the damage. If the troops have low morale, then that is not from what I say it is from what the president has done.

[SuzeQuze]

All I have to say to that is- f*ck that ****.

Oh Towie :xoxo: :laugh:

[estranged4life]

I diehardly support OUR soldiers...However, I do not support our U.S. leaders.

Brian "Peace sells...But Who's Buying?" j.

[lbelle1214]

All I have to say to that is- f*ck that ****.

:shocked: :eek: Sorry you feel that way

[lbelle1214]

I diehardly support OUR soldiers...However, I do not support our U.S. leaders.

Brian "Peace sells...But Who's Buying?" j.

But the two work together...and if you do not support our leaders...what does that say to those that oppose us? :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

Christy ... really ... he'll just get in the way.

:lol: :lol:

LOL! Yeah. I just saw on ABC that Air Force One was flying over so...yeah, finally. How many times do we have to hear "He cut his vacation short." :mad:

[estranged4life]

But the two work together...and if you do not support our leaders...what does that say to those that oppose us? :shrug:

but that doesnt not change my opinion on the U.S. leaders...I have grown tired of seeing U.S. soldiers dying daily in the Middle East for really no apparent reason at all.

Most in the world outside the US do not support this war.

I did support it when we were going after OBL after 9/11, But what has happened to that mission? Seems to have no longer become the primary mission of the Bush admist in this "War on Terror".

I am more worried about what will happen here in the U.S. than what is happening over in Iraq at this moment, I feel we are balancing on the edge of what can eventually be the start of the next civil war between those who have and those who have nothing.

As I told my sis last night "The only positive about Mom dying is that she wont have to suffer the way those of us among the living will suffer as everything crashes down upon us in the VERY near future."...Her response was "I think were at the end of it all now"...I have to say I agree, The **** is dryly stuck on the fan blades.

Brian "The Independent Ledgie" j.

[The Tower]

:shocked: :eek: Sorry you feel that way
Sorry I feel what way?

[Josh2003]

But the two work together...and if you do not support our leaders...what does that say to those that oppose us? :shrug:

It says that we are a democracy and have every right to respectfully disagree with out leaders and hold them accountable for their actions.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

As most everyone knows around here, I am a republican...but even I have come to just not even understand President Bush right now and the decisions he is making. I supported the war in the beginning...and IMO we did what we needed to do in Iraq...they are finally free and trying to set up a form of government...but we really don't need to be there anymore, at least I don't think so right now.

So I can understand how his ratings have fallen like they have...I don't think he is a horrible person...but I don't think all of his decisions right now are great.

"I HEAR THE DRUMS OF WAR, THEY ARE A CHANGING
AND EVERYBODY’S GETTING IN THE GROOVE
WE’RE LAUGHING AND DANCING AND TALKING AND JAMMIN’ AND SINGIN’
OH, WE’VE GOT NOTHIN’ BUT LOVE TO PROVE..."

-- Faith Hill

[lbelle1214]

It just seems like I pissed your off...not my intention.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

It says that we are a democracy and have every right to respectfully disagree with out leaders and hold them accountable for their actions.

I agree with what you say...but you said the word "respectfully"...and I don't think that is the case with a lot of folks.

[SuzeQuze]

...I did support it when we were going after OBL after 9/11, But what has happened to that mission? Seems to have no longer become the primary mission of the Bush admist in this "War on Terror".

When asked, Bush's words were "I don't know where he is, it's not that important, it's not our priority."


I am more worried about what will happen here in the U.S. than what is happening over in Iraq at this moment, I feel we are balancing on the edge of what can eventually be the start of the next civil war between those who have and those who have nothing.

As I told my sis last night "The only positive about Mom dying is that she wont have to suffer the way those of us among the living will suffer as everything crashes down upon us in the VERY near future."...Her response was "I think were at the end of it all now"...I have to say I agree, The **** is dryly stuck on the fan blades.

Brian "The Independent Ledgie" j.

I was thinking about this yesterday. It can't keep going this way because the people will rise up. The disaster in NO shows the divide well, there are no wealthy people there now. Unless they're nuts.

It scares me to think of what the breaking point could be. I just try to hope for the best.

[estranged4life]

I was thinking about this yesterday. It can't keep going this way because the people will rise up. The disaster in NO shows the divide well, there are no wealthy people there now. Unless they're nuts.

It scares me to think of what the breaking point could be. I just try to hope for the best.

of how they will rise-up, It's an issue of when (Just saw a report where a N'Orleans Super Wal-Mart's complete stock of firearms was looted, That is a scary thought.)

This situation is not going to get better before it gets worse.

[David]

But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops.Boy, howdy. Nothing personal, but that sort of statement really scares me. It really betrays a naive & dangerous notion as to the relationship between the individual & the state, which is really the great political theme of modern times.

The responsibility of any free individual -- & any individual who desires to remain so -- is not to "support" his government but to scrutinize its deeds & aims, to the most minute detail.

Government is a necessary evil -- a rabid dog that must be kept on a short leash -- not a surrogate parent or a wayward child who needs only a pat on the back from time to time or a lecture on behavior.

By paying my taxes & adhering to the laws of the land, I "support" this government -- by mutual agreement: I agree to X in exchange for Y (in this case, infrastructure, various services, national security, etc.). If government decides to knock heads with any citizen, it is the citizen who will lose. Remember that, & remember also that every citizen owes his freedom equally to other citizens who have secured it for him & to his own diligence in monitoring government excess & mismanagement (what the Founding Fathers wisely called "tyranny").

[The Tower]

It just seems like I pissed your off...not my intention.
Hmmm.... well, I wouldn't say that you "pissed me off". However, in this day and age how anyone could think that disagreeing with the people who run the government is somehow wrong is shocking to me.

[wondergirl9847]

(Just saw a report where a N'Orleans Super Wal-Mart's complete stock of firearms was looted, That is a scary thought.)

People are using guns, I hear, to carjack people. Also, to get gas for their vehicles. It's frightening. :(

[estranged4life]

(what the Founding Fathers wisely called "tyranny").

a bad memory, "The Tree of liberty must be freshened from time-to-time with the blood of tyrants"...

That was writing on the t-shirt that Tim McVeigh was wearing when he was arrested on I-35 heading towards Kansas after the Murrah Building Bombing on April 19,1995.

[lbelle1214]

Hmmm.... well, I wouldn't say that you "pissed me off". However, in this day and age how anyone could think that disagreeing with the people who run the government is somehow wrong is shocking to me.

I can understand your point...when you voice it that way. Seriously, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. But, I feel that if you disagree, you should come up with a viable solution to the problem and present it, LOUDLY, to your senators, congressmen, etc. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Can you see my view?

[The Tower]

I can't really see your view, since I can't really define it.

What does this:
Let me just jump in here and be the tread killer. Who are they polling anyway? The ones they called before to see if they changed their minds? What about his supporters? Let's see...go to "Texas Military Families Foundation"...click under "You Don't Speak for Me, Cindy!" tour which started in California and ended in Waco just this past weekend. Just one of many. A majority of the soldiers I have spoken with support Bush (I didn't not say all, o.k.?) and I have spoken with many. Their families may not be happy with him, for purely selfish reasons of course. But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments. *gets off soap box* :)

Have to do with this:
I can understand your point...when you voice it that way. Seriously, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. But, I feel that if you disagree, you should come up with a viable solution to the problem and present it, LOUDLY, to your senators, congressmen, etc. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Can you see my view?

Whoever said I don't complain to my elected representatives? I have issues with, in particular, two of your statements:

1)Their families may not be happy with him, for purely selfish reasons of course.
I completely disagree with that statement and that is an insult to anyone who has a child who has had to go to war.

2)But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments.
Implying that "not supporting" the government somehow has an "impact" on the people serving in the military is ludicrous.

[The Tower]

I agree with what you say...but you said the word "respectfully"...and I don't think that is the case with a lot of folks.
POT - KETTLE - BLACK

[strandinthewind]

. . . But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments. *gets off soap box* :)

So, if German citizen spoke out against Hitler, they were bad :shrug:

I mean can't we all chew gum and walk at the same time?

I get that Hitler was way worse than W, but it is a fact that W manipulated evidence to invade a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, which was the premise of W's rushed invasion of Iraq and Iraq had no WMD and W knew this at least regarding the yellow cake, which was the main source of his reason for the rush to war - I mean he said "mushroom cloud" when he knew there was no such threat.

In the end, those are facts and stating them is a good thing to show how inane W is at defending this country. If anything, saying the facts supports the troops far more than W did when he sent them to war on a contrived and bogus reason and then sending them ill equipped at that. The are the facts and they cannot be refuted :shrug: So, how is it wrong to expect W to be held accountable for them? I mean not saying them would allow W to do it again and how can anyone want that?

In the end, W should be tried and convicted for his rush to war and subsequent ill planning to win the peace much less an exit strategy. Yet, all we can talk about is gay marriage and how it is responsible for the woes of the US :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

But the two work together...and if you do not support our leaders...what does that say to those that oppose us? :shrug:

that we have brains for ourselves? I mean if today W actually said "we have intelligence that some [insert oil laden country here] has WMD and links to OBL - let's go to war" -- would you actually believe him given that he already cried wolf once? That is why public discourse is a good thing.

As for supporting the troops, I have personally given up things to do that. I have sent money, etc. So, just because I think the war was wrong in no way reflects my support of the troops and it is a little disingenuous to suggest that :shrug:

After all, the Declaration of Independence states (emphasis supplied):

. . .

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

. . . .

[strandinthewind]

I agree with what you say...but you said the word "respectfully"...and I don't think that is the case with a lot of folks.

It is a little hard to hold your temper when the likes of Rove are playing bait and switch with the issues, outright lying about them, and then calling anyone who disagrees a traitor, commie, or fag - and then has Fox News perpetutate that lie.

That tends to piss people off and make the high tea dialogue reduce to street level :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I can understand your point...when you voice it that way. Seriously, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. But, I feel that if you disagree, you should come up with a viable solution to the problem and present it, LOUDLY, to your senators, congressmen, etc. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Can you see my view?

So, black people should not have marched on Washington - they should have written a letter instead?

Same for women and the right to vote.

Same for the Boston Tea Party

Same for the American Revolution

:shrug:

[Nixxxed]

In the end, W should be tried and convicted for his rush to war and subsequent ill planning to win the peace much less an exit strategy. Yet, all we can talk about is gay marriage and how it is responsible for the woes of the US

It's apparently not just gay marriage, but gays in general:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/08/religious-right-group-heralded-by-top.html

Excerpts:
Religious right group, heralded by top religious right leaders, says God destroyed New Orleans because of gays

An evangelical Christian group that regularly demonstrates at LGBT events is blaming gays for hurricane Katrina.

Repent America says that God "destroyed" New Orleans because of Southern Decadence, the gay festival that was to have taken place in the city over the Labor Day weekend.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Implying that "not supporting" the government somehow has an "impact" on the people serving in the military is ludicrous.

That reminds me of when Sean Hannity said that Dixie Chicks saying they were "embarrassed" Pres. Bush was from Texas aided and abetted SH. I mean come on :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

It's apparently not just gay marriage, but gays in general:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/08/religious-right-group-heralded-by-top.html

Excerpts:
Religious right group, heralded by top religious right leaders, says God destroyed New Orleans because of gays

An evangelical Christian group that regularly demonstrates at LGBT events is blaming gays for hurricane Katrina.

Repent America says that God "destroyed" New Orleans because of Southern Decadence, the gay festival that was to have taken place in the city over the Labor Day weekend.

and for the hell of it, He took out the entire Gulf Coast and brough oil production and refinement to its knees :rolleyes:

[SuzeQuze]

It's apparently not just gay marriage, but gays in general:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/08/religious-right-group-heralded-by-top.html

Excerpts:
Religious right group, heralded by top religious right leaders, says God destroyed New Orleans because of gays

An evangelical Christian group that regularly demonstrates at LGBT events is blaming gays for hurricane Katrina.

Repent America says that God "destroyed" New Orleans because of Southern Decadence, the gay festival that was to have taken place in the city over the Labor Day weekend.

I knew this was coming. Sons o' b*tches. :distress: *Off to write hate mail.*

Send mail here http://www.repentamerica.com/contactus.html

[estranged4life]

Pissed off Ledgies group, heralded by top Pissed off Ledgies leaders, says God destroyed religious right because of their homo-phobic views of gays

An armed with sarcastic & often smartass reply group that regularly demonstrates at religatard events is blaming homo-phobic asspreachers for hurricane Katrina.

Unrepenting Ledgies says that God "destroyed" the religious right because of Southern Baptist mentality, the Bible-humping festival that was to have taken place in any US city over the Labor Day weekend.

God was quoted as saying "These relig-a-tards annoy the f**k out of me...I should pray that I never should have created their neanderthalic asses in the first place...My son must be po'd at me."

Jesus was unable to comment as he was out of the office at the time of the interview.

[The Tower]

I knew this was coming. Sons o' b*tches. :distress: *Off to write hate mail.*

Send mail here http://www.repentamerica.com/contactus.html
That site is full of some evil and ignorant ****.

[SuzeQuze]

That site is full of some evil and ignorant ****.

Bless you for even reading it, I couldn't stomach it. I just faxed them, bastards.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

POT - KETTLE - BLACK

hey trying to be nice here...geesh

i can be an ass hole too...but you know that already. ;)

[gldstwmn]

You would think so- however, the American public is really, really stupid. Need evidence?

No darling. I don't. :laugh: :wavey:

[gldstwmn]

But the two work together...and if you do not support our leaders...what does that say to those that oppose us? :shrug:

If they worked together we would have had an exit strategy for Iraq. Hell, if everything was working the way it was supposed to, we never would have been there and Bush wouldn't be president. And so forth and so on.
Support our troops. Bring them home now!

[gldstwmn]

but that doesnt not change my opinion on the U.S. leaders...I have grown tired of seeing U.S. soldiers dying daily in the Middle East for really no apparent reason at all.

Most in the world outside the US do not support this war.

I did support it when we were going after OBL after 9/11, But what has happened to that mission? Seems to have no longer become the primary mission of the Bush admist in this "War on Terror".

I am more worried about what will happen here in the U.S. than what is happening over in Iraq at this moment, I feel we are balancing on the edge of what can eventually be the start of the next civil war between those who have and those who have nothing.

As I told my sis last night "The only positive about Mom dying is that she wont have to suffer the way those of us among the living will suffer as everything crashes down upon us in the VERY near future."...Her response was "I think were at the end of it all now"...I have to say I agree, The **** is dryly stuck on the fan blades.

Brian "The Independent Ledgie" j.

Best post today! +100

[gldstwmn]

I agree with what you say...but you said the word "respectfully"...and I don't think that is the case with a lot of folks.

That's what the Bill Of Rights is for. Free Speech and all that.

[gldstwmn]

The responsibility of any free individual -- & any individual who desires to remain so -- is not to "support" his government but to scrutinize its deeds & aims, to the most minute detail.



Nicely done. Thomas Paine or just you?

[gldstwmn]

I can understand your point...when you voice it that way. Seriously, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. But, I feel that if you disagree, you should come up with a viable solution to the problem and present it, LOUDLY, to your senators, congressmen, etc. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Can you see my view?

How do you know he doesn't?

[gldstwmn]

In the end, W should be tried and convicted for his rush to war and subsequent ill planning to win the peace much less an exit strategy.

I'm saving this statement and marking this day on my calendar. :lol: :lol:

[gldstwmn]

After all, the Declaration of Independence states (emphasis supplied):

. . .

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

. . . .

Damn...that Thomas Jefferson was good. :nod:

[Rickypt]

So God is mad at New Orleans because of Southern Decadence, so he sends a hurricane the week BEFORE the gays arrive, destroying the lives of poor, churchgoing city residents.

[GateandGarden]

So God is mad at New Orleans because of Southern Decadence, so he sends a hurricane the week BEFORE the gays arrive, destroying the lives of poor, churchgoing city residents.You got it. You should send that to the RepentAmerica dunces. :nod:

[lbelle1214]

I can't really see your view, since I can't really define it.

What does this:


Have to do with this:


Whoever said I don't complain to my elected representatives? I have issues with, in particular, two of your statements:

1)
I completely disagree with that statement and that is an insult to anyone who has a child who has had to go to war.

2)
Implying that "not supporting" the government somehow has an "impact" on the people serving in the military is ludicrous.

Well put. As far as the first, I was only stating that all that's usually heard is the negatives. I feel for this woman, I do not agree with her.

Secondly, I did not assume that you didn't complain to your representatives. Most do not....they just sit back and complain, voice their opinions, but offer no solutions.

I have a child (by marriage) who was in Kuwait. My brother served years in Vietnam. I KNOW first hand what kind of impact war has on a person...our soldiers do care about what is being said at home. I watched soldiers at Fort Richardson on their knees praying that Bush got re-elected so they could finish this. How would they feel if I didn't support their views?

[lbelle1214]

So, black people should not have marched on Washington - they should have written a letter instead?

Same for women and the right to vote.

Same for the Boston Tea Party

Same for the American Revolution

:shrug:

I never said WRITE anyone, I said voice your opnion LOUDLY. If you feel strongly about something and you think you have a better way, then go for it. One person can make a difference, because two will follow....I don't think that any of the above were accomplished by a letter

[lbelle1214]

If they worked together we would have had an exit strategy for Iraq. Hell, if everything was working the way it was supposed to, we never would have been there and Bush wouldn't be president. And so forth and so on.
Support our troops. Bring them home now!

And what branch of government do you serve or work to know that there isn't one? Or is your opinion solely based on what you've seen on the media, or maybe the lack of the government to actually tell us what they have planned?

[lbelle1214]

I would love to have our troops home....but if they leave Iraq....they will go somewhere else no doubt. My co-workers have sons and daughters in Iraq at this very minute. They would love to have them home, too....when the job is finished.

[strandinthewind]

I never said WRITE anyone, I said voice your opnion LOUDLY. If you feel strongly about something and you think you have a better way, then go for it. One person can make a difference, because two will follow....I don't think that any of the above were accomplished by a letter


:sorry: :sorry: -- I thought that was the implication. I say that because all the things I listed were a public voicing of dissent, which I think is incongruent with I think is what you are saying, to wit: we should publicly support the troops so as not to look bad in the eyes of our enemies and not to reduce the moral of our soldiers. I suggest that cannot be done with any public protest. Interestingly, I think the vast majority of Americans publicly support the troops but are pissed with W for sending them without good cause to Iraq. I base this on the following. I fly just about weekly. Soldiers are always in the Atlanta airport. People applaud them, give up first class seats for them, etc. Some of these very people are later heard saying privately to non-military that they abhor the war, but they fully support our troops. To me, that is all the difference in the world. This is not Vietnam - where many spat on the returning soldiers :shrug:

Tone - very civil and I enjoy this conversation :cool:

[gldstwmn]

And what branch of government do you serve or work to know that there isn't one? Or is your opinion solely based on what you've seen on the media, or maybe the lack of the government to actually tell us what they have planned?

Wouldn't you like to know?http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif

[strandinthewind]

I would love to have our troops home....but if they leave Iraq....they will go somewhere else no doubt. My co-workers have sons and daughters in Iraq at this very minute. They would love to have them home, too....when the job is finished.


I think the point is that if W had had some rationale idea of what to do once we toppled SH, they would be home already. To this day, W has never articulated any solid plan. That is scary to many, like me, who see no end in sight.

That is where I fault W, but certainly not the troops. In fact, the brass begged Rumfeld for more troops, a coherent plan, and better equipment. Sadly, they got none in the inexplicable rush to war on clearly fabricated evidence. That frightens me.

[gldstwmn]

I would love to have our troops home....but if they leave Iraq....they will go somewhere else no doubt.

They're already being sent to the Iran/Iraq border.

[stargazer99]

Let me just jump in here and be the tread killer. Who are they polling anyway? The ones they called before to see if they changed their minds? What about his supporters? Let's see...go to "Texas Military Families Foundation"...click under "You Don't Speak for Me, Cindy!" tour which started in California and ended in Waco just this past weekend. Just one of many. A majority of the soldiers I have spoken with support Bush (I didn't not say all, o.k.?) and I have spoken with many. Their families may not be happy with him, for purely selfish reasons of course. But not supporting our government does send a message to our troops. Don't underestimate the impact of your comments. *gets off soap box* :)

But the two work together...and if you do not support our leaders...what does that say to those that oppose us? :shrug:

I keep hearing from supporters of this war that if you're against the war, you're against the troops. And that to criticize the president, or question him on why we're in Iraq, is treasonous.

A couple of my favorite quotes in response:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
- Theodore Roosevelt

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt

I also keep hearing the phrase "Freedom isn't Free". It seems that many of these same people feel that freedom doesn't apply to freedom of speech ... at least when it comes to dissenting speech.

Furthermore, something tells me that our troops are a little too busy trying to avoid being blown up to be paying too much attention to criticism of the president.

"I support our troops... I don't support their boss!"
- bumper sticker


- Mary

[lbelle1214]

:sorry: :sorry: -- I thought that was the implication. I say that because all the things I listed were a public voicing of dissent, which I think is incongruent with I think is what you are saying, to wit: we should publicly support the troops so as not to look bad in the eyes of our enemies and not to reduce the moral of our soldiers. I suggest that cannot be done with any public protest. Interestingly, I think the vast majority of Americans publicly support the troops but are pissed with W for sending them without good cause to Iraq. I base this on the following. I fly just about weekly. Soldiers are always in the Atlanta airport. People applaud them, give up first class seats for them, etc. Some of these very people are later heard saying privately to non-military that they abhor the war, but they fully support our troops. To me, that is all the difference in the world. This is not Vietnam - where many spat on the returning soldiers :shrug:

Tone - very civil and I enjoy this conversation :cool:

Now THAT just warms my heart!! It make me elated that people do that for them. That's great....'cause I feel we can't do enough for them. Do you hear what the soldiers say to the civilians in response, other than "Thank you, ma'am, sir?" Ever polite, our boys, ever polite....girls, too!

[GateandGarden]

I keep hearing from supporters of this war that if you're against the war, you're against the troops. And that to criticize the president, or question him on why we're in Iraq, is treasonous.

A couple of my favorite quotes in response:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
- Theodore Roosevelt

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt

I also keep hearing the phrase "Freedom isn't Free". It seems that many of these same people feel that freedom doesn't apply to freedom of speech ... at least when it comes to dissenting speech.

Furthermore, something tells me that our troops are a little too busy trying to avoid being blown up to be paying too much attention to criticism of the president.

"I support our troops... I don't support their boss!"
- bumper sticker


- Mary
Well put, Mary. :) Thanks for posting.

[reebokandlace]

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
- Theodore Roosevelt

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt- Mary

And that is why history remembers Roosevelt kindly, unlike the legacy the Bush regime will leave.

[lbelle1214]

[QUOTE=stargazer99]I keep hearing from supporters of this war that if you're against the war, you're against the troops. And that to criticize the president, or question him on why we're in Iraq, is treasonous.

A couple of my favorite quotes in response:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
- Theodore Roosevelt

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt

I also keep hearing the phrase "Freedom isn't Free". It seems that many of these same people feel that freedom doesn't apply to freedom of speech ... at least when it comes to dissenting speech.

Furthermore, something tells me that our troops are a little too busy trying to avoid being blown up to be paying too much attention to criticism of the president.

"I support our troops... I don't support their boss!"
- bumper sticker


The troops I know are trying not only to remain safe, but to rebuild. And don't think that I, also, don't have criticisms of my own. But we do not know first hand what is occurring in Iraq. I do not trust the media to give the story....I ask the ones that are there. I never mentioned treason....that's taking it to extremes. Everybody's opinion is important...but to make a difference...you must get out there and make it known...have a solution, a viable solution. Anyone can sit back and be an armchair quarterback. I could not attempt to criticize, being just little old me, because I'm not in charge of a country. What I would do may get us in worse trouble....my kindness may be mistaken for weakness...we'd be bombed straight away!!!

[strandinthewind]

. . . The troops I know are trying not only to remain safe, but to rebuild. And don't think that I, also, don't have criticisms of my own. But we do not know first hand what is occurring in Iraq. I do not trust the media to give the story....I ask the ones that are there. I never mentioned treason....that's taking it to extremes. Everybody's opinion is important...but to make a difference...you must get out there and make it known...have a solution, a viable solution. Anyone can sit back and be an armchair quarterback. I could not attempt to criticize, being just little old me, because I'm not in charge of a country. What I would do may get us in worse trouble....my kindness may be mistaken for weakness...we'd be bombed straight away!!!

But, that begs the question, how has Iraq made us safer. OBL is still on the lamb. AL-Q attacked London when the invasion of Iraq was supposed to make America and her allies safe :shrug:

In the end, I never trust what any politician says. I mean are you actually arguing W went to war in Iraq based on the truth. If so, every shred of evidence refutes that :shrug: Sad, very true. So, why should anyone believe anything that comes out of his mouth now.

[lbelle1214]

And that is why history remembers Roosevelt kindly, unlike the legacy the Bush regime will leave.

It's not over yet....do you have a crystal ball?? :p :laugh:

[lbelle1214]

But, that begs the question, how has Iraq made us safer. OBL is still on the lamb. AL-Q attacked London when the invasion of Iraq was supposed to make America and her allies safe :shrug:

In the end, I never trust what any politician says. I mean are you actually arguing W went to war in Iraq based on the truth. If so, every shred of evidence refutes that :shrug: Sad, very true. So, why should anyone believe anything that comes out of his mouth now.

No, I'm not arguing at all. I'm only saying that we are not privileged to all that goes on, nor should we be. Believe me, I get so tired of asking my son-in-law about reasons for this and that....and he tells me "It's a need to know thing....and it's not for you to know" kinda like "It's an A and B conversation, C your way out of it!". So, like I said before, I have to trust him...he's closer to the situation than I am.

[reebokandlace]

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/niko_nowarforoil.gif


http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb225.gif

[strandinthewind]

No, I'm not arguing at all. I'm only saying that we are not privileged to all that goes on, nor should we be. Believe me, I get so tired of asking my son-in-law about reasons for this and that....and he tells me "It's a need to know thing....and it's not for you to know" kinda like "It's an A and B conversation, C your way out of it!". So, like I said before, I have to trust him...he's closer to the situation than I am.


Well, I have spoken to many a soldier and they say we are there based on BS - I have even spoken to the higher ups. So, they are all inconsistent with their story. But, and in any event, even if they are correct, that does not excuse W's calculated lies to get there :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

It's not over yet....do you have a crystal ball?? :p :laugh:


No, but I have ears that heard lies and eyes that see people dying deaths that did not have to happen.

Interstingly, don't you think W and Rove, who are ruthless, would site to anything that would lend credibility to this invasion of Iraq. I mean they often site intelligence when it supports them, even if it is false a la the Niger yellow cake BS. So, I am just not buying that whole the Pres. is honest and knows better than me crap - not for one minute, esp. given his propensity to lie and use peoples' fears to get his way :shrug:

[estranged4life]

<div align=center><img src="http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb225.gif"></div>

[lbelle1214]

No, but I have ears that heard lies and eyes that see people dying deaths that did not have to happen.

Interstingly, don't you think W and Rove, who are ruthless, would site to anything that would lend credibility to this invasion of Iraq. I mean they often site intelligence when it supports them, even if it is false a la the Niger yellow cake BS. So, I am just not buying that whole the Pres. is honest and knows better than me crap - not for one minute, esp. given his propensity to lie and use peoples' fears to get his way :shrug:

I think that anyone who feels strongly about their opinion would site anything to lend credibility to support their opinion. Isn't that what we're doing here, also? I didn't say he was honest, didn't deny he could be ruthless...only said that I was not privy to the reasons. If we knew everything, our enemies would, too. ...... changing the subject.....1,500 police sent to French Quarter to corral looters....

[strandinthewind]

I think that anyone who feels strongly about their opinion would site anything to lend credibility to support their opinion. Isn't that what we're doing here, also? I didn't say he was honest, didn't deny he could be ruthless...only said that I was not privy to the reasons. If we knew everything, our enemies would, too. ...... changing the subject.....1,500 police sent to French Quarter to corral looters....


I know - I think if they can loot - they can stay in the now evacuated NOLA jail :shrug:

[lbelle1214]

Cop just came out with an AR15....they've quieted down. Some people only understand force.

[stargazer99]

I never mentioned treason....that's taking it to extremes.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were. I'm talking about some of the extremists out there, as well as some people I come into contact with on a regular basis. And being down here in Texas, it was pretty difficult to avoid the coverage in Crawford, which included the most extremes of the extremists attacking Cindy Sheehan, et al. It's one thing to be supportive of your president or the war, but I cannot grasp where these extremists are coming from when they claim that every dissenting opinion is tantamont to treason. And to prove their point, they run over a bunch of crosses?!

Everybody's opinion is important...but to make a difference...you must get out there and make it known...have a solution, a viable solution. Anyone can sit back and be an armchair quarterback. I could not attempt to criticize, being just little old me, because I'm not in charge of a country. What I would do may get us in worse trouble....my kindness may be mistaken for weakness...we'd be bombed straight away!!!

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying here. My intent is not to diminish anyone else's opinion. But, you kind of contradict yourself. If everyone is entitled to their own opinions, then why aren't we allowed to express them when it comes to disagreeing how this president is running this country, or this war? No, I don't know firsthand everything that's going on over there. But what I do know is that this administration swore up and down that there were WMD's, and that we not only had proof of that but knew exactly were they were, and that they had ties to Al-Quada. We now know that's not true. Yet the president still tries to tie 9/11 to Iraq every chance he gets. I also know that Halliburton, which Cheney coincidentally used to run, won a no-bid contract for the reconstruction in Iraq. And that we now have close to 2,000 casualties over there -- more than 2 years after Bush stood in front of the cameras claiming "mission accomplished". (And that's only counting the American casualties. I believe there are more than 10,000 Iraqis now dead because of this war.) And that this president can't coherently explain what "just cause" we're over there for... his story changes pretty much every other week. And that Bush is supporting an Iraqi constitution that gives women less rights than they had under SH. And that not one congressman, or member of this administration, has a child fighting this war. I wonder if they'd still think this war is a "just cause" if it was their own children over there putting their lives at risk?

I do have a great deal of respect for the men and women who are putting their lives at risk over there. I think they are very brave. And I know they're just doing their jobs, and that many of them do believe in what they're doing. I do not fault them for that. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with the fact that we are over there, nor does it mean I have to support their boss.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. Unfortunately, Bush does not appear to me to have any answers.

And by the way, I do let my senators and congressman know on a regular basis where I stand on the issues. Unfortunately, I'm smack dab in the middle of "Bush cronyville", so my opinion doesn't count for much as far as they're concerned.

- Mary

[estranged4life]

Best post today! +100
I try, Here's a song that seems to describe where we are heading towards:

"Civil War"-Guns N Roses

"What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Some men you just can't reach...
So, you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N' I don't like it any more than you men."

Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before

Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before

My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars

D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land

And I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war

Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

"We practice selective annihilation of Mayors and Government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer"

I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war

I don't need one more war
Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway?"

[SuzeQuze]

I know, I get chills when I hear this one. The scary kind.

I try, Here's a song that seems to describe where we are heading towards:

"Civil War"-Guns N Roses

"What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Some men you just can't reach...
So, you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N' I don't like it any more than you men."

Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before

Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before

My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars

D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land

And I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war

Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

"We practice selective annihilation of Mayors and Government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer"

I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war

I don't need one more war
Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway?"

[lbelle1214]

I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were. I'm talking about some of the extremists out there, as well as some people I come into contact with on a regular basis. And being down here in Texas, it was pretty difficult to avoid the coverage in Crawford, which included the most extremes of the extremists attacking Cindy Sheehan, et al. It's one thing to be supportive of your president or the war, but I cannot grasp where these extremists are coming from when they claim that every dissenting opinion is tantamont to treason. And to prove their point, they run over a bunch of crosses?!



I do agree with a lot of what you're saying here. My intent is not to diminish anyone else's opinion. But, you kind of contradict yourself. If everyone is entitled to their own opinions, then why aren't we allowed to express them when it comes to disagreeing how this president is running this country, or this war? No, I don't know firsthand everything that's going on over there. But what I do know is that this administration swore up and down that there were WMD's, and that we not only had proof of that but knew exactly were they were, and that they had ties to Al-Quada. We now know that's not true. Yet the president still tries to tie 9/11 to Iraq every chance he gets. I also know that Halliburton, which Cheney coincidentally used to run, won a no-bid contract for the reconstruction in Iraq. And that we now have close to 2,000 casualties over there -- more than 2 years after Bush stood in front of the cameras claiming "mission accomplished". (And that's only counting the American casualties. I believe there are more than 10,000 Iraqis now dead because of this war.) And that this president can't coherently explain what "just cause" we're over there for... his story changes pretty much every other week. And that Bush is supporting an Iraqi constitution that gives women less rights than they had under SH. And that not one congressman, or member of this administration, has a child fighting this war. I wonder if they'd still think this war is a "just cause" if it was their own children over there putting their lives at risk?

I do have a great deal of respect for the men and women who are putting their lives at risk over there. I think they are very brave. And I know they're just doing their jobs, and that many of them do believe in what they're doing. I do not fault them for that. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with the fact that we are over there, nor does it mean I have to support their boss.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. Unfortunately, Bush does not appear to me to have any answers.

And by the way, I do let my senators and congressman know on a regular basis where I stand on the issues. Unfortunately, I'm smack dab in the middle of "Bush cronyville", so my opinion doesn't count for much as far as they're concerned.

- Mary

Well....welcome fellow Texan! I hear your points and I respect your answers...thank you. My problem with the reporting on the Cindy Sheehan situation (mind you, I'm not there) is that is appears to be one-sided. I spoke with a friend this morning who was in the caravan to Waco for the Texas Military Families Foundation "You Don't Speak For Me, Cindy!" rally. What disturbed me is that she had the name of a soldier, of whom she did not personally know, on a cross displayed like a # to lend support to her cause. What she did not know was his father was there...took the cross down...not once, not twice, but FIVE times, telling her that he did not want his son's name associated with her cause. That bothers me. Also, I did not get to hear much else beside these personal acccounts because I was in Florida since Thursday...and the only thing I heard about was the hurricane.

[gldstwmn]

I keep hearing from supporters of this war that if you're against the war, you're against the troops. And that to criticize the president, or question him on why we're in Iraq, is treasonous.

A couple of my favorite quotes in response:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
- Theodore Roosevelt

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt

I also keep hearing the phrase "Freedom isn't Free". It seems that many of these same people feel that freedom doesn't apply to freedom of speech ... at least when it comes to dissenting speech.

Furthermore, something tells me that our troops are a little too busy trying to avoid being blown up to be paying too much attention to criticism of the president.

"I support our troops... I don't support their boss!"
- bumper sticker


- Mary

Nice to see you around Mary. :wavey:

[stargazer99]

Well....welcome fellow Texan! I hear your points and I respect your answers...thank you..

Thank you! I'm actually a recent TX transplant, from Chicago. Being the "bleeding heart liberal" that I am, I'm having some adjustment problems with the political climate down here, to say the least! :laugh:

My problem with the reporting on the Cindy Sheehan situation (mind you, I'm not there) is that is appears to be one-sided..

I'm not sure if it was one-sided or not... I'm sure there probably were some extremists on the anti-war side as well. But hearing from people who were there supporting Cindy, there were ground-rules established by that camp to "be respectful" to the other side. Whether or not everyone abided by those rules, I don't know. But I did hear that many on Cindy's side that tried to approach counter-protesters who'd lost children to express their sympathy, were chased away. I'm sure it's possible that there were reverse instances that just weren't reported, though. I did also hear of other instances where people from each side had very civilized conversations and consoled each other on their losses, which is good to know, considering who deeply divided this country is on this particular topic. It's unfortunate that there were many extremist pro-war protesters who showed their worst side, and that it was captured by the news. I'd like to think that most people, while they may disagree with each other, would at least show respect towards the other side.

I spoke with a friend this morning who was in the caravan to Waco for the Texas Military Families Foundation "You Don't Speak For Me, Cindy!" rally. What disturbed me is that she had the name of a soldier, of whom she did not personally know, on a cross displayed like a # to lend support to her cause. What she did not know was his father was there...took the cross down...not once, not twice, but FIVE times, telling her that he did not want his son's name associated with her cause. That bothers me.

I can understand his distress over such a situation. I wouldn't want my dead child's name to be used by those promoting this. They did report similar instances on the news, and I thought they said there was a compromise where parents such as your friends requested that their children's names be removed from the crosses, and they were removed? :shrug: I do seriously doubt, however, that Cindy Sheehan, et al., meant any disrespect to the parents of fallen soldiers who disagree with her point of view.

- Mary

[stargazer99]

Nice to see you around Mary. :wavey:


Thank you! :wavey:

While I've been lurking for quite a while, I don't post very often here. But my frustrations with the state of this country are really beginning to boil over, and I just felt the need to point out that not supporting the government is not the same as not supporting our troops. As well as the fact that the "freedoms" we always talk about that we've fought wars over include freedom of speech and the freedom (and responsibility!) to question our government.

- Mary

[lbelle1214]

Thank you! I'm actually a recent TX transplant, from Chicago. Being the "bleeding heart liberal" that I am, I'm having some adjustment problems with the political climate down here, to say the least! :laugh:



I'm not sure if it was one-sided or not... I'm sure there probably were some extremists on the anti-war side as well. But hearing from people who were there supporting Cindy, there were ground-rules established by that camp to "be respectful" to the other side. Whether or not everyone abided by those rules, I don't know. But I did hear that many on Cindy's side that tried to approach counter-protesters who'd lost children to express their sympathy, were chased away. I'm sure it's possible that there were reverse instances that just weren't reported, though. I did also hear of other instances where people from each side had very civilized conversations and consoled each other on their losses, which is good to know, considering who deeply divided this country is on this particular topic. It's unfortunate that there were many extremist pro-war protesters who showed their worst side, and that it was captured by the news. I'd like to think that most people, while they may disagree with each other, would at least show respect towards the other side.



I can understand his distress over such a situation. I wouldn't want my dead child's name to be used by those promoting this. They did report similar instances on the news, and I thought they said there was a compromise where parents such as your friends requested that their children's names be removed from the crosses, and they were removed? :shrug: I do seriously doubt, however, that Cindy Sheehan, et al., meant any disrespect to the parents of fallen soldiers who disagree with her point of view.

- Mary

Well, besides all this....I'm really glad you're here in Texas. We're basically all pretty nice! But, on the last comment about that you do doubt that they meant any disrespect to the parents....I have to disagree...otherwise she would not a replaced the cross the first time, let alone every time the dad took it down. This in itself aggravated me. Once, maybe...but not after she was requested NOT to do it again. After that, well then, it would've been on, peaceful or not.

[lbelle1214]

Thank you! :wavey:

While I've been lurking for quite a while, I don't post very often here. But my frustrations with the state of this country are really beginning to boil over, and I just felt the need to point out that not supporting the government is not the same as not supporting our troops. As well as the fact that the "freedoms" we always talk about that we've fought wars over include freedom of speech and the freedom (and responsibility!) to question our government.

- Mary

Mary, what part of Texas have you been transplanted to? Maybe we live in the same corner of the world!

[stargazer99]

Well, besides all this....I'm really glad you're here in Texas. We're basically all pretty nice!

Don't get me wrong... I don't mean any disrespect towards Texans. Most people I've met since I've been here are very nice! It's just the political climate I don't like. I've just learned to hold my tongue, though (well, most of the time, anyway! :lol: ) and not bring up politics. My husband was working down here for about a year before we moved, and made some good friends. Most of them are republicans, though, who love to egg me on!

Mary, what part of Texas have you been transplanted to? Maybe we live in the same corner of the world!

I'm in the Dallas area. I think that's quite a bit north of where you are, isn't it?

- Mary

[DavidMn]

surprise, surprise

[lbelle1214]

Don't get me wrong... I don't mean any disrespect towards Texans. Most people I've met since I've been here are very nice! It's just the political climate I don't like. I've just learned to hold my tongue, though (well, most of the time, anyway! :lol: ) and not bring up politics. My husband was working down here for about a year before we moved, and made some good friends. Most of them are republicans, though, who love to egg me on!



I'm in the Dallas area. I think that's quite a bit north of where you are, isn't it?

- Mary

About a 5 hr drive. My daughter's in-laws are in Mineral Wells, which should be a little closer to you.

[lbelle1214]

surprise, surprise

What'cha mean by that? :cool:

[DavidMn]

What'cha mean by that? :cool:
Oh, I'm sort of skeptical about most politicians. I dont really have a leaning either way. I've voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I try to be common sense about the issues I look into. I guess that sounds pretty wishy-washy huh?

[lbelle1214]

Oh, I'm sort of skeptical about most politicians. I dont really have a leaning either way. I've voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I try to be common sense about the issues I look into. I guess that sounds pretty wishy-washy huh?

Not at all to me!!! I'm the same way. Neither Democrat or Republican. I listen to what they have to say, filter the bull****, (I'm excellent @ conflict resolution) and make my own decision. :wavey:

[markolas]

Cop just came out with an AR15....they've quieted down. Some people only understand force.

Yep, that's how you have to deal with those negroes. *eyeroll*

[strandinthewind]

Yep, that's how you have to deal with those negroes. *eyeroll*

That is a little unfair. Every reporter at the Convention Center indicated it would be a mob scene by nightfall (rapes, threats of violence, etc. were reported) and the head of police agreed with them. So, there appears to be some justification for a display of force regardless of race :shrug:

I get that the situation was created by the glacier like response from FEMA, but it is there nontheless and must be dealt with.

[markolas]

That is a little unfair. Every reporter at the Convention Center indicated it would be a mob scene by nightfall (rapes, threats of violence, etc. were reported) and the head of police agreed with them.

Gee, ya think? These people should've been evacuated from the city last weekend. Instead, somebody had the bright idea of locking them in the convention center and the Superdome. I was saying last weekend that it was going to turn into something from a Mad Max movie. Am I just smarter than the people running the city of New Orleans??

[strandinthewind]

Gee, ya think? These people should've been evacuated from the city last weekend. Instead, somebody had the bright idea of locking them in the convention center and the Superdome. I was saying last weekend that it was going to turn into something from a Mad Max movie. Am I just smarter than the people running the city of New Orleans??

No - you are correct. But, I get in trouble when I say that the abled bodied MOTHER FU**ING idiots who stayed there just got in the way and cost lives. The problem is the poor and unable could not evacuate and the govt. was not going to haul all 30,000 of them to some other city. Sad, very true.

As for the dome - it was built with this in mind and it worked rather well until FEMA dropped the ball on, say, Tuesday. People were getting meals in there, etc. I get that it was awful living conditions, but it was slightly better than being alone in a 100+ degree attic with water up to your neck praying for someone to rescue you :shrug: Also, the Convention Center was used primarily to put the rescued people when it was determined the dome could handle no more. Again, if FEMA had not dropped the ball and waited five days to get additional and replacement help into NOLA - this situation would be a different story.

In the end, the moral of this story is if you are able to, then GET THE F**K OUT when the authorities tell you to. Otherwise you are only in the way and will cost others less fortunate than you their lives.

Interestingly, MS, which is FAR easier to evacuate did not. I will never for the life of me get that one.

[gldstwmn]

Yep, that's how you have to deal with those negroes. *eyeroll*

Did you see the footage of General Honore telling the troops to "put down their god damn weapons" (meaning point them at the ground)? "This isn't Iraq" he said. He even told the NO police to stop aiming their weapons at the people just sitting outside the Convention Center.
It's on the CNN home page.

[estranged4life]

FEMA now means "F**ked Every Minority Around"...Which is what they did in NOLA!!!

[gldstwmn]

FEMA now means "F**ked Every Minority Around"...Which is what they did in NOLA!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Gee, ya think? These people should've been evacuated from the city last weekend. Instead, somebody had the bright idea of locking them in the convention center and the Superdome. I was saying last weekend that it was going to turn into something from a Mad Max movie. Am I just smarter than the people running the city of New Orleans??

I think everyone has realized a mistake was made...guess what, it can't be taken back. The only thing we can do now is pray that the rest of these people get out of there as soon as possible!

[strandinthewind]

I think everyone has realized a mistake was made...guess what, it can't be taken back. The only thing we can do now is pray that the rest of these people get out of there as soon as possible!

That and hold those responsible for it accountable so it never happens again. Sadly, with W, there never seems to be a good follow through. In the case of NOLA and MS, thousands are probably dead as a direct result of that. The resp. for their deaths falls squarely onto W's shoulders no matter how good his actions are now or were initially. Again, he appointed someone as the head of FEMA - whose sole responsibility it is to think and react quickly in the face of an emergency much less an anticipated disaster like this one - who said they were no prepared and had not contemplated the very things that the training classes foretold and had been for years. If people are okay with W and his cronies getting away with that, then I really am speechless.

I mean "guess what, it can't be taken back" :eek: tell that to the mothers who miscarried and/or watched their children starve or dehydrate to death because of FEMA ineptness. I think maybe you did not think about that when you made that statement.

Out of curiosity, what would you do to W for this disaster, which BTW is just the latest in his long line of them both in and out of office.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

another this is the dome actually worked and well considering the lack of power and plumbing. If FEMA had gotten off of its ass and evacuated these people on Tuesday or even Wed., the crisis in the dome would not really have been that at all.

I mean FEMA acts so surprised by this, but they knew about it as evidenced by the articles in the Katrina thread and many many more online - thus they are liars and should be held accountable.

Note - not all of this is directed at Brown Eyes

[Brwn_eyes0511]

^^^

another this is the dome actually worked and well considering the lack of power and plumbing. If FEMA had gotten off of its ass and evacuated these people on Tuesday or even Wed., the crisis in the dome would not really have been that at all.

I mean FEMA acts so surprised by this, but they knew about it as evidenced by the articles in the Katrina thread and many many more online - thus they are liars and should be held accountable.

Note - not all of this is directed at Brown Eyes

I know what you are saying..and I know that it is not all directed at me! ;) I am just trying to stay out of this whole situation...I'm already swamped with school stuff...I'm just falling back on my religion and praying that everything turns out for the best...in God's plan! That's all I can do I suppose!

Memoráre, O piÃ*sima Virgo MarÃ*a,
non esse audÃ*tum a sæculo,
quemquam ad tua curréntem præsÃ*dia,
tua implorántem auxÃ*lia,
tua peténtem suffrágia
esse derelÃ*cta.
Nos tali animáti confidéntia ad te,
Virgo VÃ*rginum, Mater, cúrrimus;
ad te venÃ*mus; coram te geméntes peccatóres assÃ*stimus.
Noli, Mater Verbi, verba nostra despÃ*cere,
sed audi propÃ*tia et exáudi. Amen.

[strandinthewind]

I know what you are saying..and I know that it is not all directed at me! ;) I am just trying to stay out of this whole situation...I'm already swamped with school stuff...I'm just falling back on my religion and praying that everything turns out for the best...in God's plan! That's all I can do I suppose!

Memoráre, O piÃ*sima Virgo MarÃ*a,
non esse audÃ*tum a sæculo,
quemquam ad tua curréntem præsÃ*dia,
tua implorántem auxÃ*lia,
tua peténtem suffrágia
esse derelÃ*cta.
Nos tali animáti confidéntia ad te,
Virgo VÃ*rginum, Mater, cúrrimus;
ad te venÃ*mus; coram te geméntes peccatóres assÃ*stimus.
Noli, Mater Verbi, verba nostra despÃ*cere,
sed audi propÃ*tia et exáudi. Amen.

God has a much better plan than W, who apparently had none until pressed to do so.

Sanctus Abbas in Olympus vindico nos ex fossor plumbum nos iam

[gldstwmn]

That and hold those responsible for it accountable so it never happens again. Sadly, with W, there never seems to be a good follow through.

There never seems to be any accountability either. :shrug: