Katrina

[Janet]

My God, I read everything that has happened with this hurricane and I can't believe it. They say 80 people may have died. Really scary stuff.

Today it's already up here in NJ area.

You should read my weather report. We could get up to 4 inches of rain. The way the wind is positioned, we could get tornados. Then tomorrow if it gets hot, the storms could get even worse because Katrina will clash with a cold front...

VERY dramatic. We don't get 4 inches or rain or tornados around here but this weather report was like 6 paragraphs of how we could have really dangerous weather. Kinda scary.....

[estranged4life]

30 people were killed in one apartment complex alone in Biloxi when 32 foot storm surge slammed into their apartments...The officials are saying it will take at least 1 month to have electric back on in N'Orleans and that the damage was more "exponentially worse than they expected".

The water is still rising in N'Orleans and they expect it to get even worse before it gets better.

[DavidMn]

30 people were killed in one apartment complex alone in Biloxi when 32 foot storm surge slammed into their apartments...The officials are saying it will take at least 1 month to have electric back on in N'Orleans and that the damage was more "exponentially worse than they expected".

The water is still rising in N'Orleans and they expect it to get even worse before it gets better.
Yikes. No good :(

[gldstwmn]

I don't know if anyone saw Aaron Brown last night when he talked with Jeanne Meserve. She talked about nightfall and how they could hear people yelling for help and there was nothing they could do to help them. She was crying.
Then I saw the guy in Mississippi this morning whose house split in half and couldn't hold on to his wife. That interview was haunting.

[gldstwmn]

The water is still rising in N'Orleans and they expect it to get even worse before it gets better.

Apparently, the levee at Lake Ponchartrain has been breached.

[gldstwmn]

Take care out there Janet. :wavey:

[DavidMn]

I don't know if anyone saw Aaron Brown last night when he talked with Jeanne Meserve. She talked about nightfall and how they could hear people yelling for help and there was nothing they could do to help them. She was crying.
Then I saw the guy in Mississippi this morning whose house split in half and couldn't hold on to his wife. That interview was haunting.
Lets make sure and be thankful for everyday we have. :angel:

[wondergirl9847]

My prayers go out to the people over there. Chris, your post about the people yelling breaks my heart. :(

[Lee]

I feel so bad for the people down there. Everything is detroyed. They've lost everything & don't know what to do. I couldn't sleep the night/morning that the hurricane hit b/c I knew some people weren't going to make it. Some people just didn't take it seriously or they couldn't leave b/c they were too sick, old, too poor, etc. I hope to God that no hurricane ever hits us. I don't know where we'd go or what we'd do.

I'm going to write a check to the American Red Cross. It's the least I can do.

Lee :distress:

[gldstwmn]

Martial law declared in New Orleans:
http://www.wdsu.com/index.html

[gldstwmn]

Photo of levee breach:
<img src="http://www.hunt101.com/img/319526.JPG">

[DavidMn]

Martial law declared in New Orleans:
http://www.wdsu.com/index.html
Damn, Martial Law. they probably need it. that really sucks that people would take advantage of someone else's misfortune like that. :(

[Nixxxed]

30 people were killed in one apartment complex alone in Biloxi when 32 foot storm surge slammed into their apartments...The officials are saying it will take at least 1 month to have electric back on in N'Orleans and that the damage was more "exponentially worse than they expected".

The water is still rising in N'Orleans and they expect it to get even worse before it gets better.
MSNBC has been showing video of all the floating casinos in Biloxi. They're huge buildings built on barges that of course broke free when the storm surge came and floated inland. They showed one casino-barge that came to rest on top of a several-story Holiday Inn and crushed it to the ground. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

My God, I read everything that has happened with this hurricane and I can't believe it. They say 80 people may have died. Really scary stuff.

Today it's already up here in NJ area.

You should read my weather report. We could get up to 4 inches of rain. The way the wind is positioned, we could get tornados. Then tomorrow if it gets hot, the storms could get even worse because Katrina will clash with a cold front...

VERY dramatic. We don't get 4 inches or rain or tornados around here but this weather report was like 6 paragraphs of how we could have really dangerous weather. Kinda scary.....

My prediction is the count will reach 500 or more. I base that on the unconfirmed reports of bodies seen floating in the water and the horrific mistake of Mississippi for not making the residents of their Gulf Coast evacuate - entire small towns are said to be just gone and something like 40% of the residents of that area in general were said to have remained there to ride it out.

Here is one account from CNN:

One man in Biloxi told CNN affiliate WKRG-TV he believed his wife was killed after she was ripped from his grasp when their home split in half.

"I held her hand as tight as I could," the unidentified man said. "She told me, 'You can't hold me.' She told me to take care of the kids and the grandkids ... we ain't got nowhere to go. I'm lost. That's all I had."

[strandinthewind]

Apparently, the levee at Lake Ponchartrain has been breached.


They are dropping sandbags into it, I think as we speak and the local pumping station is back on line. That is a good thing, but time is not on the side of the human here as that water is now contaminated and highly dangerous.

[Nixxxed]

They are dropping sandbags into it, I think as we speak and the local pumping station is back on line. That is a good thing, but time is not on the side of the human here as that water is now contaminated and highly dangerous.
Yup - they just showed video of NO, and you could see the swirls of gasoline floating on the water, probably leaking from flooded cars. People could also smell it.

I haven't heard about the people in the Superdome tho - are they still in there, or did they move them elsewhere? They're saying there's now 3 feet of water surrounding the stadium. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Yup - they just showed video of NO, and you could see the swirls of gasoline floating on the water, probably leaking from flooded cars. People could also smell it.

I haven't heard about the people in the Superdome tho - are they still in there, or did they move them elsewhere? They're saying there's now 3 feet of water surrounding the stadium. :shrug:


Well, it is not just the gasoline, which interestingly may be a saving factor becuase it will kill bacteria and cholera. People and other animals are surely dead in that water and that water also contains human waste from the waterlogged waste treatment plants - that and the at least 91 degree weather will make that water a toxic dump. Sacry Sacry!!!!

[wondergirl9847]

They talked about the coffins too, floating in the water. It's just horrific and unsafe. :(

[Nixxxed]

Well, it is not just the gasoline, which interestingly may be a saving factor becuase it will kill bacteria and cholera. People and other animals are surely dead in that water and that water also contains human waste from the waterlogged waste treatment plants - that and the at least 91 degree weather will make that water a toxic dump. Sacry Sacry!!!!
Yeah - I'm just more worried about the gas because there are several fires burning out of control. And since they're still pulling people out of the flooded neighborhoods, having everything above the floodwaters on fire would surely doom everyone still waiting to get to be rescued. But you're right - it's a nasty soup any way you look at it.

And I just saw pics of Gulfport, MS. I was so horrifying I can't even describe it.

[strandinthewind]

They talked about the coffins too, floating in the water. It's just horrific and unsafe. :(


Well, the coffins are from the above ground mausoleums and most likely contain bodies decomposed past the point of a bio hazard - thought that is still gross.

[strandinthewind]

Yeah - I'm just more worried about the gas because there are several fires burning out of control. And since they're still pulling people out of the flooded neighborhoods, having everything above the floodwaters on fire would surely doom everyone still waiting to get to be rescued. But you're right - it's a nasty soup any way you look at it.

And I just saw pics of Gulfport, MS. I was so horrifying I can't even describe it.

Several things, like one of the yacht clubs, have burned already.

Dear God - show us the way back.

[Nixxxed]

I don't know if anyone saw Aaron Brown last night when he talked with Jeanne Meserve. She talked about nightfall and how they could hear people yelling for help and there was nothing they could do to help them. She was crying.
Then I saw the guy in Mississippi this morning whose house split in half and couldn't hold on to his wife. That interview was haunting.
Oh yeah - I heard a replay of that. I cried all the way through it.

The other thing about it that really got me was all the dogs she said she heard yelping and crying for their owners.

[gldstwmn]

My prayers go out to the people over there. Chris, your post about the people yelling breaks my heart. :(

Their cameraman worked with a broken foot since 9am yesterday morning. If you get a chance to see Jeanne Meserve's report, check it out. It was some of the most honest, heartfelt reporting I have heard in a long time. She should win an award.

[gldstwmn]

Damn, Martial Law. they probably need it. that really sucks that people would take advantage of someone else's misfortune like that. :(

Well...some of it may be about pure survival.

[gldstwmn]

Yup - they just showed video of NO, and you could see the swirls of gasoline floating on the water, probably leaking from flooded cars. People could also smell it.

I haven't heard about the people in the Superdome tho - are they still in there, or did they move them elsewhere? They're saying there's now 3 feet of water surrounding the stadium. :shrug:

They are still there and the situation is deteriorating. The toilets don't flush, the garbage is piling up, etc.

[strandinthewind]

Well...some of it may be about pure survival.

I think that is a small fraction. I have been through many of these and personally seen people stealing tv's etc., not food. Interestingly, the last time the SuperDome has refugees, many robbed the place blind. I think though, that this bad element is a very small percentage of the total population.

[gldstwmn]

Dear God - show us the way back.

No kidding. :(

[gldstwmn]

I think that is a small fraction. I have been through many of these and personally seen people stealing tv's etc., not food. Interestingly, the last time the SuperDome has refugees, many robbed the place blind. I think though, that this bad element is a very small percentage of the total population.

I saw people stealing diapers. I don't think I would be too quick to judge anyone stealing diapers or food in this situation.

[strandinthewind]

I saw people stealing diapers. I don't think I would be too quick to judge anyone stealing diapers or food in this situation.

I am not - I am just saying my experience has taught me that the people staling diapers and food are the main people stealing. Moreover, if they can get to the store to steal, they can most likely get to a shelter that has those things. Meals are being given out in the Dome :shrug:

[DavidMn]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]I am not - I am just saying my experience has taught me that the people staling diapers and food are the main people stealing. Moreover, if they can get to the store to steal, they can most likely get to a shelter that has those things. Meals are being given out in the Dome :shrug:[/QUOI agree with you on this one, but man it gets tough there.

[strandinthewind]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]I am not - I am just saying my experience has taught me that the people staling diapers and food are the main people stealing. Moreover, if they can get to the store to steal, they can most likely get to a shelter that has those things. Meals are being given out in the Dome :shrug:[/QUOI agree with you on this one, but man it gets tough there.

I have sat with my father in front of our house - each of us with shotguns - watching looters walk down the street. It is sad to think people like that exist when the law enforcement needs to be concentrating on helping people. I mean if the bad looters would take that energy and put it to cleaning up this crap in a few days, the work would go better and they would likely be paid for it.

[DavidMn]

[QUOTE=DavidMn]

I have sat with my father in front of our house - each of us with shotguns - watching looters walk down the street. It is sad to think people like that exist when the law enforcement needs to be concentrating on helping people. I mean if the bad looters would take that energy and put it to cleaning up this crap in a few days, the work would go better and they would likely be paid for it.
DOes this martial law thing that they declared in New Orleans mean that they can shoot looters on sight or how does that work?

[gldstwmn]

I am not - I am just saying my experience has taught me that the people staling diapers and food are the main people stealing. Moreover, if they can get to the store to steal, they can most likely get to a shelter that has those things. Meals are being given out in the Dome :shrug:
The Dome is being evacuated darling.

[DavidMn]

The Dome is being evacuated darling.
Really? when did they start that? is it too hot in there now?

[gldstwmn]

Really? when did they start that? is it too hot in there now?
Streaming audio and video here: http://www.wdsu.com/index.html

[gldstwmn]

New Olreans under water, George plays guitar:
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050830/capt.capm10208301856.bush__capm102.jpg?x=380&y=325&sig=xlaGyc1Muc3K7iAJg1KmkA--">

[DavidMn]

Streaming audio and video here: http://www.wdsu.com/index.html
Thank you for sharing that. :D

[strandinthewind]

The Dome is being evacuated darling.

I did not read it was being evacuated as much as they are allowing the people in it to go outside on the miles of ramps and into the parking garages.

EDIT - I could not see anything in that link to indicate that - but there was an article as of 6:29 a.m. this morning that said the people in the dome were allowed to go outside to escape the smell.

Is the roof failing?

as of 2:29 p.m. - people were being brought there:

NEW ORLEANS, La. -- Conditions are far from ideal at the Louisiana Superdome, but for the new arrivals, it's better than what they left behind.

Rescuers are continuing to bring survivors from Hurricane Katrina to the huge sports arena, where the air conditioning is out and the bathrooms are filthy. And there are two holes in the roof, caused by the storm.

There are more than 10,000 people in the arena.

Officials had earlier reported two deaths at the Superdome, and now, they report that someone died Tuesday after plunging from an upper level of the stadium. They say the person probably jumped.

http://www.wdsu.com/news/4916024/detail.html

[strandinthewind]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]
DOes this martial law thing that they declared in New Orleans mean that they can shoot looters on sight or how does that work?

I am unsure. Most likely, the police are too busy trying to save people and property. But, if they see it, they will stop it - though I am unsure how because I am unsure if the jails are 1. accessible and 2. above water.

[MiniLindsey]

New Olreans under water, George plays guitar:
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050830/capt.capm10208301856.bush__capm102.jpg?x=380&y=325&sig=xlaGyc1Muc3K7iAJg1KmkA--">

I'm not surprised that he's fretting a G chord 1 fret too high!

[strandinthewind]

New Olreans under water, George plays guitar:
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050830/capt.capm10208301856.bush__capm102.jpg?x=380&y=325&sig=xlaGyc1Muc3K7iAJg1KmkA--">

To be fair - he returned to DC early to work on this :shrug: I am no fan of his, but he is on top of it between returning early and allocating FEMA before the storm actually struck :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

NEW ORLEANS -- Looters in New Orleans are taking advantage of the destruction from Hurricane Katrina.

At a Walgreens drug store in the French Quarter Tuesday morning, people were running out with grocery baskets and coolers full of soft drinks, chips and diapers.

When police finally showed up, a young boy stood at the door and shouted a warning -- and the crowd scattered.

A tourist from Philadelphia compared the scene to "downtown Baghdad."

Nearby, looters ripped open the steel gates from the front of stores on Canal Street.

They filled industrial-sized garbage cans with clothing and jewelry and floated them down the street on bits of plywood and insulation.

WDSU-TV reported that martial law was declared in some parts of New Orleans Tuesday morning.

The declaration is imposed to restore order in times of war and emergency.

http://www.wdsu.com/news/4915310/detail.html (emphasis supplied)

[lagringader&r]

NEW ORLEANS -- Looters in New Orleans are taking advantage of the destruction from Hurricane Katrina.

At a Walgreens drug store in the French Quarter Tuesday morning, people were running out with grocery baskets and coolers full of soft drinks, chips and diapers.

When police finally showed up, a young boy stood at the door and shouted a warning -- and the crowd scattered.

A tourist from Philadelphia compared the scene to "downtown Baghdad."

Nearby, looters ripped open the steel gates from the front of stores on Canal Street.

They filled industrial-sized garbage cans with clothing and jewelry and floated them down the street on bits of plywood and insulation.

WDSU-TV reported that martial law was declared in some parts of New Orleans Tuesday morning.

The declaration is imposed to restore order in times of war and emergency.

http://www.wdsu.com/news/4915310/detail.html (emphasis supplied)

That is one of the lowest things in my opinion. Something like Katrina should be a really good excuse to come together and help each other out, not rob the stores that haven't been wiped out. Disgusting.

[strandinthewind]

That is one of the lowest things in my opinion. Something like Katrina should be a really good excuse to come together and help each other out, not rob the stores that haven't been wiped out. Disgusting.

With all due respect to these people and the people they are robbing and excluding the ones who needs food and cannot get access to a shelter (which I submit is a very very rare case) - - these looters are people with nothing left to lose - I base that on experience and from the neighborhoods in the images, which are the very poor sections. It does not make it right - I am just casting some light for perspective.

[dissention]

New Olreans under water, George plays guitar:
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050830/capt.capm10208301856.bush__capm102.jpg?x=380&y=325&sig=xlaGyc1Muc3K7iAJg1KmkA--">

Kumbayah...

[dissention]

A tourist from Philadelphia compared the scene to "downtown Baghdad."


Has this tourist been to downtown Baghdad? :laugh:

[lagringader&r]

With all due respect to these people and the people they are robbing and excluding the ones who needs food and cannot get access to a shelter (which I submit is a very very rare case) - - these looters are people with nothing left to lose - I base that on experience and from the neighborhoods in the images, which are the very poor sections. It does not make it right - I am just casting some light for perspective.

Damn, you always make me think twice about something I've just posted. You have a good ability for seeing both sides and it's something I never thought of. Again, good point and something to consider.

[strandinthewind]

Damn, you always make me think twice about something I've just posted. You have a good ability for seeing both sides and it's something I never thought of. Again, good point and something to consider.

It is just so hreatbreaking ya know. I mean I lived in these areas as NOLA is famous for having good and really bad areas next door to each other etc. So, I know from that point of view where these people are coming from. Yet, if I owned the store I might be a little pissed, etc., though the insurance probably will cover it along with the damage claim.

BTW - I was not scolding - but maybe later ;) ;)

on edit - In the end, the right thing to do is evacuate if possible or go to a shelter. The reason for this is because now critical police attention is taken from critical rescue efforts and placed on this crap. Also, experience has taught me many looters purposefully did not go to the shelters because they know they will make cash from looting because there is little the police can do about it at this point. They also sell the goods to the other poor. Almost all looters suck. <------- and that is a period.

[lagringader&r]

It is just so hreatbreaking ya know. I mean I lived in these areas as NOLA is famous for having good and really bad areas next door to each other etc. So, I know from that point of view where these people are coming from. Yet, if I owned the store I might be a little pissed, etc., though the insurance probably will cover it along with the damage claim.

BTW - I was not scolding - but maybe later ;) ;)

Yep, the looters might have kids to feed. The store owners feel like they're getting ripped off. It's too bad that during this time the looters couldn't just say to the store owners "I have kids to feed" and the owners help them out, then later the looters come back to repay. Then, of course, they wouldn't be looters anymore and the store owners wouldn't be store owners. They'd just be people looking out for each other and getting each other's backs. I wish..

Later? I better watch what I say..

[strandinthewind]

. . . Later? I better watch what I say..

Better not be naughty :wavey: :wavey: ;) :wavey:

But, yes, that would be cool. Sadly, the store owners got in their cars and drove away. The whole thing just sucks.

[sara1998]

I don't know if anyone saw Aaron Brown last night when he talked with Jeanne Meserve. She talked about nightfall and how they could hear people yelling for help and there was nothing they could do to help them. She was crying.
Then I saw the guy in Mississippi this morning whose house split in half and couldn't hold on to his wife. That interview was haunting.
I was bawling over this one half the day.... I saw a article in the Indianapolis Star about a little boy, alone, in shock, on a rooftop when rescue workers found him. His grandparents were found dead, and they haven't found his mother and 8 year old brother yet. That one really got to me.

[strandinthewind]

Damn, you always make me think twice about something I've just posted. You have a good ability for seeing both sides and it's something I never thought of. Again, good point and something to consider.


Another thing - I used to tutor the kids from some of these projects after they got out of school. It was a way for their parent(s) - who mostly worked at fast food places, as maids, etc., to have free sitters while they earned relatively little. They would pick up their kids and thank me with tears and occasionally a pie or something like that. Can you imagine what an honor it was to me to get a pie or fried chicken that probably costs these people $10.00 to make when these same people had to work three hours that day to make that $10.00 and most worked two jobs and had little free time. I cry to this day thinking about it. They were so thankful to me and the others because they did not want their kids to land where they did in the heap. Moreover, many of those kids were so bright and eager to learn, but the schools were too crowded to give them what they needed. I am not saying all of this to praise myself. I say it to cast further light on the plight of many of these people and also to note that the vast majority are good, hard working, and decent people who life and their fellow man have mostly treated poorly.

Anyway - sorry for the vent/rant/etc.

[lagringader&r]

Another thing - I used to tutor the kids from some of these projects after they got out of school. It was a way for their parent(s) - who mostly worked at fast food places, as maids, etc., to have free sitters while they earned relatively little. They would pick up their kids and thank me with tears and occasionally a pie or something like that. Can you imagine what an honor it was to me to get a pie or fried chicken that probably costs these people $10.00 to make when these same people had to work three hours that day to make that $10.00 and most worked two jobs and had little free time. I cry to this day thinking about it. They were so thankful to me and the others because they did not want their kids to land where they did in the heap. Moreover, many of those kids were so bright and eager to learn, but the schools were too crowded to give them what they needed. I am not saying all of this to praise myself. I say it to cast further light on the plight of many of these people and also to note that the vast majority are good, hard working, and decent people who life and their fellow man have mostly treated poorly.

Anyway - sorry for the vent/rant/etc.

I swear I got a little choked up reading this. You really are a GOOD person. You helped those kids and those parents and it was probably so worth it to them to bake you a pie. I'd rather have the pie than cash anyday for something like that coz the pie was made with appreciation and even love. Very cool and I'm glad you posted that. You and those parents who worked hard to give their kids a better life and even harder to thank you racked up MAJOR karma points. :xoxo: And see? That's what I was talking about. You helped them, they helped you and eveybody walked away happy or at least not feeling like a piece of s*it despite poverty. I wish the world could work that way all the time.

[strandinthewind]

The Dome is being evacuated darling.

Yep - the Order came in:

Governor: New Orleans Needs to Be Evacuated

Tuesday, August 30, 2005

BATON ROUGE, La. — With conditions in the hurricane-ravaged city of New Orleans rapidly deteriorating, Gov. Kathleen Blanco (search ) announced late Tuesday that people now huddled in the Superdome and other rescue centers need to be evacuated.

"The situation is untenable," Blanco said during a news conference. "It's just heartbreaking."

Rescuers in boats and helicopters struggled to reach hundreds of wet and bedraggled victims of Hurricane Katrina (search) along the Gulf Coast Tuesday, while New Orleans slipped deeper into crisis as water began rising in the streets because of a levee break.

The magnitude of the disaster — and the death toll in particular — became clearer with every tale of misery. Mississippi's governor said the number of dead in one county alone could be as high as 80.

"At first light, the devastation is greater than our worst fears. It's just totally overwhelming," Blanco said the morning after Katrina howled ashore with winds of 145 mph and engulfed thousands of homes in one of the most punishing storms on record in the United States.

In New Orleans (search), water began rising in the streets Tuesday morning, swamping an estimated 80 percent of the city and prompting the evacuation of hotels and hospitals. The water was also rising perilously inside New Orleans' Superdome, and Blanco announced a plan to evacuate the tens of thousands of people now huddled there and in other shelters.

Because of two levees that broke Tuesday, the city was rapidly filling with water, the governor said. She also said the power could be out for a long time, and the storm broke a major water main, leaving the city without drinkable water. Also, looting broke out in some neighborhoods.

New Orleans lies mostly below sea level and is protected by a network of pumps, canals and levees. Officials began using helicopters to drop 3,000-pound sandbags onto one of the levees, hoping to close the breach.

All day, rescuers were also seen using helicopters to drop lifelines to victims and pluck them from the roofs of homes cut off by floodwaters. The Coast Guard said it rescued some 1,200 people.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said hundreds, if not thousands, of people may still be stuck on roofs roofs and in attics, and so rescue boats were bypassing the dead.

"We're not even dealing with dead bodies," Nagin said. "They're just pushing them on the side."

National Guardsmen brought in people from outlying areas to New Orleans' Superdome in the backs of big 21/2-ton Army trucks. Louisiana's wildlife enforcement department also brought people in on the backs of their pickups. Some were wet, some were in wheelchairs, some were holding babies and nothing else.

Nevertheless, it was clear the death toll would rise sharply, with one survivor after another telling of friends and loved ones who floated off or disappeared as the floodwaters rose around them.

"I talked with paramedics that are on the scene and the devastation is so great that they won't quit counting for a while," said Mark Williams, operations supervisor for an ambulance service along the Mississippi coast.

Along the coast, tree trunks, downed power lines and trees, and chunks of broken concrete in the streets prevented rescuers from reaching victims. Swirling water in many areas contained hidden dangers. Crews worked to clear highways. Along one Mississippi highway, motorists themselves used chainsaws to remove trees blocking the road.

Tens of thousands of people will need shelter for weeks if not months, said Mike Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. And once the floodwaters go down, "it's going to be incredibly dangerous" because of structural damage to homes, diseases from animal carcasses and chemicals in homes, he said.

[B]An estimated 40,000 people were in American Red Cross shelters along the Gulf Coast.

Officials warned people against trying to return to their homes, saying that would only interfere with the rescue and recovery efforts.

Looting broke out in Biloxi and in New Orleans, in some cases in full view of police and National Guardsmen. On New Orleans' Canal Street, the main thoroughfare in the central business district, looters sloshed through hip-deep water and ripped open the steel gates on the front of several clothing and jewelry stores.

More than 1,600 Mississippi National Guardsmen were activated to help with the recovery, and the Alabama Guard sent 800 of its soldiers to Mississippi as well.

In New Orleans, a city of 480,000 that was mostly evacuated over the weekend as Katrina closed in, those who stayed behind faced another, delayed threat: rising water. Failed pumps and levees apparently sent water from Lake Pontchartrain coursing through the streets.

The rising water forced one New Orleans hospital to move patients to the Superdome, where some 10,000 people had taken shelter, and prompted the staff of New Orleans' Times-Picayune newspaper to abandon its offices, authorities said. Hotels were evacuated as well as the water kept rising.

Downtown streets that were relatively clear in the hours after the storm were filled with 1 to 11/2 feet of water Tuesday morning. Water was knee-deep around the Superdome. Canal Street was literally a canal. Water lapped at the edge of the French Quarter. Clumps of red ants floated in the gasoline-fouled waters downtown.

"It's a very slow rise, and it will remain so until we plug that breach. I think we can get it stabilized in a few hours," said Terry Ebbert, New Orleans' homeland security chief.

Gov. Haley Barbour of Mississippi said there were unconfirmed reports of up to 80 deaths in Harrison County — which includes devastated Gulfport and Biloxi — and the number was likely to rise. An untold number of people were also feared dead in Louisiana. At least five other deaths across the Gulf Coast were blamed on Katrina.

"We know that there is a lot of the coast that we have not been able to get to," Barbour said on NBC's "Today Show." "I hate to say it, but it looks like it is a very bad disaster in terms of human life."

As for the death toll in Louisiana, Blanco said only: "We have no counts whatsoever, but we know many lives have been lost."

At the Superdome, someone died after plunging from an upper level of the stadium, Ebbert said. He said the person probably jumped.

The biggest known cluster of deaths was at the Quiet Water Beach apartments in Biloxi, a red-brick beachfront complex of about 100 units. Harrison County, Miss., emergency operations center spokesman Jim Pollard said about 30 people died there.

"This is our tsunami," Mayor A. J. Holloway of Biloxi, Miss., told The Biloxi Sun Herald.

Joy Schovest, 55, was in the apartment complex with her boyfriend, Joe Calvin, when the water began rising. They stayed despite a mandatory evacuation order.

"The water got higher and higher," she said, breaking into tears. "It pushed all the doors open and we swam out. We grabbed a lady and pulled her out the window and then we swam with the current. It was terrifying. You should have seen the cars floating around us. We had to push them away when we were trying to swim."

Teresa Kavanagh, 35, of Biloxi, shook her head is disbelief as she took photographs of the damage in her hometown.

"Total devastation. Apartment complexes are wiped clean. We're going to rebuild, but it's going to take long time. Houses that withstood Camille are nothing but slab now," she said. Hurricane Camille killed 256 people in Louisiana and Mississippi in 1969.

The hurricane knocked out power to millions of people from Louisiana to the Florida Panhandle, and authorities said it could be two months before electricity is restored to everyone.

Oil prices jumped by more than $3 a barrel on Tuesday, climbing above $70 a barrel, amid uncertainty about the extent of the damage to the Gulf region's refineries and drilling platforms.

By midday Tuesday, Katrina was downgraded to a tropical depression, with winds around 35 mph. It was moving northeast through Tennessee at around 21 mph.

Forecasters said that as the storm moves north over the next few days, it could swamp the Tennessee and Ohio valleys with a potentially ruinous 8 inches or more of rain. On Monday, Katrina's remnants spun off tornadoes and other storms in Georgia that smashed dozens of buildings and were blamed for at least one death.

According to preliminary assessments by AIR Worldwide Corp., a risk assessment company, the insurance industry faces as much as $26 billion in claims from Katrina. That would make Katrina more expensive than the previous record-setting storm, Hurricane Andrew, which caused some $21 billion in insured losses in 1992 to property in Florida and along the Gulf Coast.

Mike Spencer of Gulfport made the mistake of trying to ride out the storm in his house. He told NBC that he used his grandson's little surfboard to make his way around the house as the water rose around him.

Finally, he said, "as the house just filled up with water, it forced me into the attic, and then I ended up kicking out the wall and climbing up to a tree because the houses around me were just disappearing."

He said he wrapped himself around a tree branch and waited four or five hours.

Anne Anderson said she lost her family home in Gulfport.

"My family's an old Mississippi family. I had antiques, 150 years old or more, they're all gone. We have just basically a slab," she told NBC. She added: "Behind us we have a beautiful sunrise and sunset, and that is going to be what I'm going to miss the most, sitting on the porch watching those."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167781,00.html

[gldstwmn]

Really? when did they start that? is it too hot in there now?

The generators are being compromised due to rising water.

[gldstwmn]

[QUOTE=DavidMn]

I am unsure. Most likely, the police are too busy trying to save people and property. But, if they see it, they will stop it - though I am unsure how because I am unsure if the jails are 1. accessible and 2. above water.

CNN just showed a group of prisoners sitting on a highway ramp because their facility is flooded.

[strandinthewind]

The generators are being compromised due to rising water.


Also, the city has no potable water to speak of and there is no electricity to heat the tainted water long enough to kill the bacteria. Thank goodness FEMA and other related sources had food and water for these people over and above what people brought. They will probably move them to Baton Rouge or the North Shore of New Orelans.

[gldstwmn]

To be fair - he returned to DC early to work on this :shrug: I am no fan of his, but he is on top of it between returning early and allocating FEMA before the storm actually struck :shrug:

That picture is from today. He was in San Diego for a Republican party fundraiser at the Hotel Del Coronado. He played golf yesterday and I've just shown you what he was doing today.

[strandinthewind]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]

CNN just showed a group of prisoners sitting on a highway ramp because their facility is flooded.

The big state/Parish prison is next to the highway.

[GypsySorcerer]

I don't know if anyone saw Aaron Brown last night when he talked with Jeanne Meserve. She talked about nightfall and how they could hear people yelling for help and there was nothing they could do to help them. She was crying.
Then I saw the guy in Mississippi this morning whose house split in half and couldn't hold on to his wife. That interview was haunting.
I saw both of those, Chris. You're right -- very haunting. :( I hope that man's children and grandchildren give him strength. My heart goes out to all of them.

[strandinthewind]

That picture is from today. He was in San Diego for a Republican party fundraiser at the Hotel Del Coronado. He played golf yesterday and I've just shown you what he was doing today.


I was going by the news today that said he was returning to DC as seen here

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/bush.hurricane.ap/index.html

But, and in any event, his going to fundraisers and playing golf has not negatively effected his reaction to this crisis, which so far has been great. Can you imagine if he waited to declare this eligible for Federal Aid and the Agencies assisting hands were tied. He is also considering releasing the oil reserves, which he most certainly will have to do seeing as how at least 1/3 of the nation's oil and refined oil prodcuts come from there. So, I am not bothered by that - though I do not like him - because he apparently is on top of things and I think it is a little unfair to judge him so harshly for multi-tasking :shrug:

Again, nothing in this praise should be taken as a statement that I like W. I do not. I am just calling a spade a spade.

[gldstwmn]

[QUOTE=gldstwmn]

The big state/Parish prison is next to the highway.

That must be what it is. They showed a facility with the roof off and a sea of orange jumpsuits. They had a little boat and were transporting them 2-3 at a time to the highway ramp. I don't know where they're going after that.

[strandinthewind]

[QUOTE=strandinthewind]

That must be what it is. They showed a facility with the roof off and a sea of orange jumpsuits. They had a little boat and were transporting them 2-3 at a time to the highway ramp. I don't know where they're going after that.


Up until a few years ago, many of those prisoners were in tents - in fact it was called Tent City. The Feds blew a gasket and ordered the Parish to construct real jails as the tents were inhumane, esp. in the Summer. It was a big stink in NOLA at the time.

[gldstwmn]

I
But, and in any event, his going to fundraisers and playing golf has not negatively effected his reaction to this crisis, which so far has been great.

He needs to be there for the people, not on a golf course. It's completely wrong and disrespectful.
BTW, 50% of LA's National Guard and accompanying equipment are in Iraq. How do you think that is effecting this catastrophe?

[gldstwmn]

[QUOTE=gldstwmn]


Up until a few years ago, many of those prisoners were in tents - in fact it was called Tent City. The Feds blew a gasket and ordered the Parish to construct real jails as the tents were inhumane, esp. in the Summer. It was a big stink in NOLA at the time.

Now that you mention it, they did look like some sort of permanent tent.

[strandinthewind]

He needs to be there for the people, not on a golf course. It's completely wrong and disrespectful.
BTW, 50% of LA's National Guard and accompanying equipment are in Iraq. How do you think that is effecting this catastrophe?

Apparently, not at all. There have been no reports of them needing equipment :shrug: Moreover, there is no facutal information to indicate that that equipment is not being utilized better in Iraq - and if it is helping the soldiers there, I am all for it because and again, NOLA seemingly is okay with what it has as of now.

As for the golf course thing. I think that is too harsh a standard - I mean if you had your way he and every other President would never play golf and always be working, which is sort of interesting considering as you hate W's work :laugh: Again, he has the situation handled as best he can right now and handled it very, very well, but you will never give him credit for that :laugh: So, to each their own :cool:

[gldstwmn]

Moreover, there is no facutal information to indicate that that equipment is not being utilized better in Iraq


No ****. :lol:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[strandinthewind]

No ****. :lol:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Well, until someone can show how that equipment is sorely missed in NOLA and other parts of LA right now, you kind of have no argument other than you think we should not be in Iraq and therefore anything related to that is inherently bad no matter what good that equipment may be doing there :shrug: Wasn't it not to long ago we were all screaming about how ill equipped our soldiers were in Iraq - maybe this equipment better equips them :shrug:

Finally, aren't ya gonna give the a$$hole just a little credit for the Federal Declaration, the utlization of FEMA, and the probable release of the oil reserves :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :p Certainly those were good things done in a timely manner :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

Finally, aren't ya gonna give the a$$hole just a little credit for the Federal Declaration, the utlization of FEMA,

I already did, several days ago. :)

[strandinthewind]

I already did, several days ago. :)


I must have missed it.

[gldstwmn]

I must have missed it.

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=21981&page=2&pp=15

[strandinthewind]

I know I just saw it too - buit I wanna hear it again because it did not mention the oil reserves :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

I just got back from St. Tammany Parish, and it is bad there. It's much worse than I expected. We had to lie for them (the police) to let us in there, too. My grandmother wanted us to check on her house. We had to walk most of the way because you just couldn't get a vehicle through. It was such an obstacle course! I jumped over trees and crawled under them. (Yes, I do realize that what I've been through is absolutely nothing compared to so many others, but I wanted to share). My grandmother's house is actually okay, just with lots of scattered debris in her yard. But there are so many fallen power lines and just gigantic messes everywhere. I really didn't think it would hit so many places so hard.

[GypsySorcerer]

I just got back from St. Tammany Parish, and it is bad there. It's much worse than I expected. We had to lie for them (the police) to let us in there, too. My grandmother wanted us to check on her house. We had to walk most of the way because you just couldn't get a vehicle through. It was such an obstacle course! I jumped over trees and crawled under them. (Yes, I do realize that what I've been through is absolutely nothing compared to so many others, but I wanted to share). My grandmother's house is actually okay, just with lots of scattered debris in her yard. But there are so many fallen power lines and just gigantic messes everywhere. I really didn't think it would hit so many places so hard.
I can't even imagine the devastation there. :( I am glad to hear that your grandmother's house is okay.

[GateandGarden]

I can't even imagine the devastation there. :( I am glad to hear that your grandmother's house is okay.Thank you. :) I'm really lucky to be away from all of it. We only get one channel on the TV now ( :laugh: ) but, of course, that would be one that's showing all horrors in New Orleans. I can't even imagine all of that. They compare it to a tsunami. :(

[strandinthewind]

Tuesday, August 30, 2005


Entergy outages: 1.1 million customers in La., Miss.

Tuesday, 5:19 p.m.

This is a news release from Entergy.

New Orleans, La. – Entergy today is beginning the process of assessing the extraordinary damage to its electrical system in Louisiana and Mississippi caused by Hurricane Katrina, the worst storm in Entergy's history.

Company officials said crews could take several days to fully assess the damage, and it expects a long and difficult restoration process due to the scope and amount of damage to its electrical system.

As of 5 a.m. today, Entergy’s electrical power outages from Hurricane Katrina peaked at nearly 1.1 million homes and businesses, with some 790,000 in Louisiana and more than 300,000 in Mississippi without power.

Entergy crews were able to restore power to some customers Monday night in areas that did not suffer heavy damage from Katrina. The company is expecting that additional outages could occur due to wet soil and occasional strong wind gusts.

The outage total already has more than quadrupled the previous Entergy record of 270,000 set only last month during Tropical Storm Cindy. The record prior to that was 260,000 in Hurricane Georges in 1998.

Entergy will first concentrate on restoring service in areas where it is not inhibited by flood waters or other obstacles. The company will work toward the harder hit areas as the company gains access to those areas.

Utilities in Florida that have been damaged by Hurricane Katrina have already brought together a large work force that normally would assist Entergy. Restoration for Entergy customers could be delayed until those workers complete the work in Florida and are released to Entergy.

Customers should be prepared for extended power outages. Severe damage caused by Hurricane Katrina to Entergy’s system could require weeks to rebuild. In addition, restoration may be hampered by flooding, blocked access or other obstacles.

Entergy crews and contractors are prepared to work long hours after the storm passes, restoring service to customers as quickly and as safely as possible.

All of the four Entergy System states, including Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas and Texas, are contributing significant numbers of restoration workers to help restore service. While Entergy maintains sufficient personnel in the donor areas to handle emergencies, the company will be slower responding to regular business needs. Entergy sincerely appreciates its customers’ patience and understanding during this time of emergency.

Entergy follows a restoration plan that concentrates on getting service restored to essential customers first like hospitals, police, fire, communications, water, sanitary services and transportation providers. Then, Entergy crews turn their attention to making repairs to electrical facilities that will return service to the largest number of customers in the shortest period of time, then the next largest number, and so on, until power is restored to everyone.

Entergy has placed more people on the phones, more crews in the field and is providing frequent status reports to local news media to make sure customers are well informed. Entergy is recognized in the industry as having one of the best-trained storm restoration teams in the county. The company has a highly-recognized plan of action for emergency storm preparedness and restoration.

Entergy reminds customers to remain safe and stay away from downed power lines and flooded areas. Do not walk in standing water and do not venture into areas of debris, since energized and dangerous power lines may not be visible.

Entergy Corporation is an integrated energy company engaged primarily in electric power production and retail distribution operations. Entergy owns and operates power plants with approximately 30,000 megawatts of electric generating capacity, and it is the second-largest nuclear generator in the United States. Entergy delivers electricity to 2.7 million utility customers in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas. Entergy has annual revenues of more than $10 billion and approximately 14,000 employees.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075212


ALSO

Closing levee breaches top priority

The Army Corps of Engineers was focused Tuesday on finding a way to close the levee breaches in the Industrial Canal and 17th Street Canal that have let waters pour into New Orleans, state officials said.

Col. Jeff Smith with the Louisiana National Guard said the Corps has informed the state that they are beginning to plan how exactly to fill the holes in the levee, which observers described as several hundred feet long.

Smith said the Corps might fill large cargo containers with a heavy substance, such as sand, which would then be plugged into the gaps. "It would be better than just sandbags," he said, adding that Corps officials haven't figured out exactly what they will do. He expected that work could begin later this afternoon or in the morning.

After a flight over the devastated region, U.S. Sen.
David Vitter said that he could see three breaches in the levees, including a 200 feet hole in the 17th Street Canal, as well as two separate gaps encompassing a total of about 500 feet in the Industrial Canal on the St. Bernard side.

The focus of state and federal agencies on Tuesday remained rescuing people who are stuck on rooftops or attics, surrounded by water and unable to escape. The state has begun moving people out of hospitals in downtown hospitals, including Big Charity, which Gov.
Kathleen Blanco called "out of commission."

Blanco said that while search and rescue operations continued that officials were also getting supplies to hospitals and people who sought refuge at the Superdome, which is receiving more residents as people are rescued. After officials have completed all of their rescue operations, they will begin to assess how to evacuate other people in the city who are in high, dry locations.

Bill Lokey, the federal coordinating officer for FEMA, said they would like to begin evacuating people who aren't in danger within a couple days.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075208

[Mad4stevie]

They have just reported that there may be an inmate uprising at the Orleans Parrish prison. Unconfirmed accounts state that the inmates have taken a deputy and his family hostage.

God, this just keeps getting worse and worse.

[strandinthewind]

They have just reported that there may be an inmate uprising at the Orleans Parrish prison. Unconfirmed accounts state that the inmates have taken a deputy and his family hostage.

God, this just keeps getting worse and worse.

Not only that, but the looters are shooting at the police, cars are being cae jacked, and so on and so one :eek:

[Mad4stevie]

Not only that, but the looters are shooting at the police, cars are being cae jacked, and so on and so one :eek:

WTF is wrong with these people???

Tragedy either brings out the best, or the worst, in people it seems. :distress: :distress:

[strandinthewind]

WTF is wrong with these people???

Tragedy either brings out the best, or the worst, in people it seems. :distress: :distress:

Having lived through many of these - I can tell you people deliberatly do not evcuate with the thought of looting in their heads the whole time. They are looting the mansions on St. Charles and someone, perhaps the police or the owners, are shooting them. Also, if you do not protect your home, they will kill you and/or rape you and not just women. I know that sounds harsh, but I have seen it. Scary stuff.

[eclipse]

Hillary....
I am so glad you are OK -you have been on my mind for three days ( and you know how I am about crystal visions...) :confused:
So , so glad all is well. water is water,
but loved ones are "life"

I am so happy you guys came though OK-
With my sincre -erst (sp) wishes for sweet and peaceful dreams tonight-at least..
Thank God everyone really made it through this "test " of mother Nature...
She is so awesome and repectable---huh??
Stay in touch-ok...?
~~eclipse~~

[Mad4stevie]

Also, alot of hospitals have lost the ability to have life support units, even with the generators. They are manually ventilating their patients :distress:

[Mad4stevie]

Having lived through many of these - I can tell you people deliberatly do not evcuate with the thought of looting in their heads the whole time. They are looting the mansions on St. Charles and someone, perhaps the police or the owners, are shooting them. Also, if you do not protect your home, they will kill you and/or rape you and not just women. I know that sounds harsh, but I have seen it. Scary stuff.

I will never understand why people disregard the force of mother nature. I mean, you are completely at her mercy. Why do people risk such things when their very lives are at stake if they are wrong??

If I was there, I would have left at first inclination that anything could happen. I get super panicky at those kinds of things.

If people are looting things that are vital, like water, I can understand moreso. But these people are stealing electronics, clothing, etc. Did you see that video of the female police officer trying to subdue the young guy who was looting? It would not surprise me if this a**hole tries to turn around and sue the police department!

[lbelle1214]

They just said that they expect the pumps to fail within the next 8 hrs. and told everyone to evacuate New Orleans, period. Expect another 7 ft. of water. Hospitals are being evacuated by personnel and National Guard. :distress:

[Mad4stevie]

They have rescued approx. 3,000 people from their attics and roofs in New Orleans thus far. :shocked:

[strandinthewind]

They have rescued approx. 3,000 people from their attics and roofs in New Orleans thus far. :shocked:

I find it hard to believe that at least half of these people could not evacuate to at least a local shelter or the Dome. Now, because of their assinine decision, resources are being wasted to save their assess. I get that they should be saved, but they ought to be bitched out and then charged for it. There are still many handicap people out there in their attics and the rescuers are farting around with able bodied and stubborn people.

[Mad4stevie]

I find it hard to believe that at least half of these people could not evacuate to at least a local shelter or the Dome. Now, because of their assinine decision, resources are being wasted to save their assess. I get that they should be saved, but they ought to be bitched out and then charged for it. There are still many handicap people out there in their attics and the rescuers are farting around with able bodied and stubborn people.

I totally agree. The sight of the elderly and handicap being completely terrified as they are rescued is not something I will soon forget.

[lbelle1214]

They showed some homeless (But looked able-bodied) man before the storm hit...interviewed him and he said he was going to "ride it out" behind "that tree over there"...in New Orleans! That kind of stupidity leaves me speechless (almost) And he was only about a mile from the dome. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

Hillary....
I am so glad you are OK -you have been on my mind for three days ( and you know how I am about crystal visions...) :confused:
So , so glad all is well. water is water,
but loved ones are "life"

I am so happy you guys came though OK-
With my sincre -erst (sp) wishes for sweet and peaceful dreams tonight-at least..
Thank God everyone really made it through this "test " of mother Nature...
She is so awesome and repectable---huh??
Stay in touch-ok...?
~~eclipse~~Thank you so much. :xoxo:

[Sapphire Girl]

My prayers for health and safety go out to everyone hit by this horrendous disaster. I know there is total devastation and things are extremely bleak, but Americans, as a rule, are very generous, caring, hard-working, and resilient. It's going to take some time, but things will get better.

[lbelle1214]

Someone from my church just called (I'm ashamed, 'cause I haven't been there in about two years!) to collect things that the stranded said they needed...diapers, powdered baby formula, individually packed snacks, etc. So, I'm gathering up all I have and taking it to the church tomorrow. Everybody give what you can to help...money is secondary to the things they need for survival right now.

[Mad4stevie]

Someone from my church just called (I'm ashamed, 'cause I haven't been there in about two years!) to collect things that the stranded said they needed...diapers, powdered baby formula, individually packed snacks, etc. So, I'm gathering up all I have and taking it to the church tomorrow. Everybody give what you can to help...money is secondary to the things they need for survival right now.

There was just a message on msnbc that said the Red Cross and Salvation Army are requesting that people NOT send food or clothing. Maybe it is easier for them to purchase things directly as needed with monetary contributions. I didn't hear the exact reasons why they are sending out this message. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

It appears one of the housing projects is burning :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/strandinthewind/top.jpg

though it is hard to tell if that is a project or a neighborhood of row houses.

pic. is fron cnn.com

[GateandGarden]

It appears one of the housing projects is burning :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/strandinthewind/top.jpg

though it is hard to tell if that is a project or a neighborhood of row houses.

pic. is fron cnn.com:distress: :distress:

[DrummerDeanna]

The looting images are just something else. On CNN they're showing people leaving stores with their arms full of stuff :distress: It's disgusting - I wish that these people - who are healthy and appartently came through ok - would put their energy to something more useful...but no :distress: It really saddens me.

[gldstwmn]

Well, until someone can show how that equipment is sorely missed in NOLA and other parts of LA right now, you kind of have no argument
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.levees/index.html
Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breaches

[gldstwmn]

I know I just saw it too - buit I wanna hear it again because it did not mention the oil reserves :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Don't hold your breath.

[gldstwmn]

They showed some homeless (But looked able-bodied) man before the storm hit...interviewed him and he said he was going to "ride it out" behind "that tree over there"...in New Orleans! That kind of stupidity leaves me speechless (almost) And he was only about a mile from the dome. :shrug:

Well, let's look at it another way though. The toilets and garbage in the Dome are overflowing, it is 90+ degrees and officials are now saying they do not have enough water and food for everyone that is in there. They are evacuating it. I can see why people might be reluctant to go there.

[strandinthewind]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.levees/index.html
Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breaches

I did read anything in that article or other related articles that suggested the equipment in Iraq could be used to plug the breached levees. In fact, they have the 3,000 sandbags, they have the shipping containers, they have the blackhawks, etc. They are just unsure how to use them. So, your argument is not supported by this article :shrug: Again, I am not being antagonistic, I am just unsure how the equipment is Iraq is missed in any significant measure as you asserted.

[gldstwmn]

I did read anything in that article or other related articles that suggested the equipment in Iraq could be used to plug the breached levees. In fact, they have the 3,000 sandbags, they have the shipping containers, they have the blackhawks, etc. They are just unsure how to use them. So, your argument is not supported by this article :shrug: Again, I am not being antagonistic, I am just unsure how the equipment is Iraq is missed in any significant measure as you asserted.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin just told WWL TV in New Orleans that the project to fill the breach in the 17th St Canal flood wall with sandbags didn't fail -- the sandbags were never tried. Nagin suggested that, after repairing the breach had been made the top priority in discussions with state, federal and Orleans Parish Levee Board officials this morning, someone had apparently "reprioritized" the helicopter earmarked for the sandbag assignment. The result: unless somebody thinks of something in the next 12 to 15 hours, Nagin said, currently dry areas of New Orleans, including the French Quarter and the

Garden District, will be inundated to a point three feet above sea level. Nagin blamed the situation on "too many chiefs", and darkly suggested that some officials -- unnamed -- failed to grasp the severity of the situation.

UPDATE: Nagin said basically the same thing to WDSU TV in New Orleans. But he did not repeat the incendiary statements in an interview with CNN's Aaron Brown shortly afterward.

[strandinthewind]

Well, let's look at it another way though. The toilets and garbage in the Dome are overflowing, it is 90+ degrees and officials are now saying they do not have enough water and food for everyone that is in there. They are evacuating it. I can see why people might be reluctant to go there.

In the beginning it was not that way and the people rescued from their roof tops in the sewage laden and corpse filled water in the 90+ degree heat with no food and water might find the Dome or another shelter a little better. Also, do not be surprised if in the end, they find people dead from snake bites and/or eaten by hungry wild animals.

I mean when the govt., based on expert opinion, orders you to do something and tells you that if you do not, you are placing the your life and the lives of others in peril, you do it - period. Again, these able bodied people are thwarting the rescue efforts of people who cannot help themselves. This is kind of a no brainer to me.

[gldstwmn]

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? 'Times-Picayune' Had Repeatedly Raised Federal Spending Issues



By Will Bunch

Published: August 30, 2005 9:00 PM ET

PHILADELPHIA Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters may still keep rising in New Orleans late on Tuesday. That's because Lake Pontchartrain continues to pour through a two-block-long break in the main levee, near the city's 17th Street Canal. With much of the Crescent City some 10 feet below sea level, the rising tide may not stop until it's level with the massive lake.

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain.

The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs.

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:

"That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount. But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said."

The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late.

One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer: a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday.

The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need."

Local officials are now saying, the article reported, that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection, including building up levees and repairing barrier islands, "the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be."

[gldstwmn]

Does that work for you Strandie, or did you need more? :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin just told WWL TV in New Orleans that the project to fill the breach in the 17th St Canal flood wall with sandbags didn't fail -- the sandbags were never tried. Nagin suggested that, after repairing the breach had been made the top priority in discussions with state, federal and Orleans Parish Levee Board officials this morning, someone had apparently "reprioritized" the helicopter earmarked for the sandbag assignment. The result: unless somebody thinks of something in the next 12 to 15 hours, Nagin said, currently dry areas of New Orleans, including the French Quarter and the

Garden District, will be inundated to a point three feet above sea level. Nagin blamed the situation on "too many chiefs", and darkly suggested that some officials -- unnamed -- failed to grasp the severity of the situation.

UPDATE: Nagin said basically the same thing to WDSU TV in New Orleans. But he did not repeat the incendiary statements in an interview with CNN's Aaron Brown shortly afterward.

Mea Culpa - I read or heard where the sandbags were tried but did not work. Alot of info. is coming through at once it seems.

[strandinthewind]

Does that work for you Strandie, or did you need more? :wavey:


Well, then you have to back to the 70's because NOLA has been begging for Federal Intervention in the structure of the levees and pumping system - and for the most part, they never got it.

Moreover, that really does not explain how the actual vehicles in Iraq would be better served in NOLA as you implied :shrug:

[lbelle1214]

Well, let's look at it another way though. The toilets and garbage in the Dome are overflowing, it is 90+ degrees and officials are now saying they do not have enough water and food for everyone that is in there. They are evacuating it. I can see why people might be reluctant to go there.

I agree with a reluctance to go now, after the fact, but not going prior to the storm, to me, is what I considered to be stupid. I did not think that the dome was a logical choice to begin with...with any forethought, you would know that w/o electricity, there would be no a/c. With most hurricanes, you are without electricity for at least a week...at least living here on the coast. :shrug:

[lbelle1214]

The looting images are just something else. On CNN they're showing people leaving stores with their arms full of stuff :distress: It's disgusting - I wish that these people - who are healthy and appartently came through ok - would put their energy to something more useful...but no :distress: It really saddens me.

There was a Foot Locker in the vacinity of the French Quarter. Guys were going in and coming out with loads of shoes....right in front of the national guard. :distress:

[wondergirl9847]

There was just a message on msnbc that said the Red Cross and Salvation Army are requesting that people NOT send food or clothing. Maybe it is easier for them to purchase things directly as needed with monetary contributions. I didn't hear the exact reasons why they are sending out this message. :shrug:

Sending money is better because they can buy things in bulk. I can't even imagine the list of things people are going to need...for themselves and their children. Food, water, clothes, undergarments, blankets, pillows, handwipes, female sanitary needs, diapers, toys for kids to stay occupied, the list goes on and on... :(

[David]

I agree with a reluctance to go now, after the fact, but not going prior to the storm, to me, is what I considered to be stupid. I did not think that the dome was a logical choice to begin with...with any forethought, you would know that w/o electricity, there would be no a/c. With most hurricanes, you are without electricity for at least a week...at least living here on the coast. :shrug:Just about six hours before landfall, one of the news channels I was watching interviewed a father & teenaged son -- a couple of numbnuts (the father moreso, obviously) who stood there in front of the camera, uttering every type of imbecility imaginable. The reporter asked them why they didn't plan to evacuate when meteorologists were saying the storm was going to create a storm surge that would bury much of coastal New Orleans like a tsunami & so forth, & numbnuts Dad & Son just stood there saying, "No way, man. That ain't going to happen. It ain't the same thing" blah blah blah.

The reporter was just dumbfounded.

I wonder where numbnuts Dad & Son are now. I don't wish bad things on dumb people (only on bad people), but I can't help thinking that natural selection is at work.

[gldstwmn]

Well, then you have to back to the 70's because NOLA has been begging for Federal Intervention in the structure of the levees and pumping system - and for the most part, they never got it.

Moreover, that really does not explain how the actual vehicles in Iraq would be better served in NOLA as you implied :shrug:

Alright, alright. Picky, picky.

http://abc26.trb.com/news/natguard08012005,0,4504131.story?coll=wgno-news-1

LA National Guard Wants Equipment to Come Back From Iraq

Yunji de Nies

August 1, 2005, 9:07 PM CDT

JACKSON BARRACKS -- When members of the Louisiana National Guard left for Iraq in October, they took a lot equipment with them. Dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad, and in the event of a major natural disaster that, could be a problem.

"The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," said Lt. Colonel Pete Schneider with the LA National Guard.

Col. Schneider says the state has enough equipment to get by, and if Louisiana were to get hit by a major hurricane, the neighboring states of Mississippi, Alabama and Florida have all agreed to help.

"As Governor Bush did for Ivan, after they were hit so many times, he just maxed all of his resources out, he reached out to Louisiana and we sent 200 national guardsmen to help support in recovery efforts," Col. Schneider said.

Members of the Houma-based 256th Infantry will be returning in October, but it could be much longer before the rest of their equipment comes home.

"You've got combatant commanders over there who need it they say they need it, they don't want to lose what they have, and we certainly understand that it's a matter it's a matter of us educating that combatant commander, we need it back here as well," Col. Schneider said.

And even if commanders in Iraq release the equipment, getting it home takes months.

"It's just the process of identifying which equipment we're bringing home, bringing it down to Kuwait, loading it on ships or aircraft however we're gonna get it back here and then either railing it in or trucking it in, so we're talking a significant amount of time before that equipment is back home," Schneider said.

[gldstwmn]

This is kind of a no brainer to me.

Well, duh. :shrug:

[lbelle1214]

Aircraft carriers from NJ, upper East Coast, Naval ships, Red Cross ships dispatched to NO. Caravans of volunteers from all over the country on the way. What a great country we live in! The compassion here is endless. People helping others and caring what happens to their neighbors is what it's all about. No amount of preparation can actually 'prepare' you for the natural disasters that occur. No one knows the actual devestation that will occur. It's just like learning any new skill...you can practice...but if you don't have the ability to actually perform it, time and again...you are still unprepared. I believe that the people in charge are doing the best that they can in the worst imaginable situation (and it IS going to get worse). I-10, one of the main thoroughfares thru Louisiana is out of commission. Brett Favre is on Fox right now asking for supplies...water, bread, formula...immediate need..for those who can get in. The Red Cross and disaster relief agencies can only do so much....search and rescue is a priority right now...immediate supplies are needed for those without food and water. Money takes awhile to get funneled thru the channels...I agree that they need money....but $$ will not feed a hungry infant RIGHT NOW! It only takes hours for an infant to dehydrate....

[lbelle1214]

Well, duh. :shrug:

All of that takes time! Time that some do not have. Many, many other states have this equipment which could be there much faster. So does our military....I know because the Port of Beaumont is one of the major ports used to transport military equipment out of the country. We've lived with all the security surrounding the port here because of that.

[estranged4life]

New Olreans under water, George plays guitar:
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050830/capt.capm10208301856.bush__capm102.jpg?x=380&y=325&sig=xlaGyc1Muc3K7iAJg1KmkA--">

2 "F"-tards for the price of one: Presidunce Asshat & that no talent hack Mark "Yee-haw Yokel-f**k" Willis.

[gldstwmn]

All of that takes time! Time that some do not have. Many, many other states have this equipment which could be there much faster.

So you agree then that it would have been better to have the National Guard equipment there in the first place?

[lbelle1214]

2 "F"-tards for the price of one: Presidunce Asshat & that no talent hack Mark "Yee-haw Yokel-f**k" Wills.

I know many here do not like....let me take that back....hate Pres Bush...but right now, he is not playing guitar...he's in Air Force One flying over New Orleans. If you think that he does not care about these people, you're dead wrong.

[gldstwmn]

No amount of preparation can actually 'prepare' you for the natural disasters that occur. No one knows the actual devestation that will occur. It's just like learning any new skill...you can practice...but if you don't have the ability to actually perform it, time and again...you are still unprepared.

FEMA and the Guard and all of the first responders train for these types of scenarios all of the time.

[gldstwmn]

I know many here do not like....let me take that back....hate Pres Bush...but right now, he is not playing guitar...he's in Air Force One flying over New Orleans.
No, you're right. That photograph was taken yesterday, a good 12-15 hours after the levee had been breached.
For the record, I do not hate.

[estranged4life]

I know many here do not like....let me take that back....hate Pres Bush...but right now, he is not playing guitar...he's in Air Force One flying over New Orleans. If you think that he does not care about these people, you're dead wrong.

flying over Orleans, I am making a comment about these 2 butt munches in the picture is all.

[lbelle1214]

So you agree then that it would have been better to have the National Guard equipment there in the first place?

In Iraq? I say give them whatever they need to get the job done, without compromising security here at home. You cannot plan for "whatever", let alone for a natural disaster of this magnitude. Army engineers at this very moment are trying 10,000 lbs sandbags, concrete barriers to fix the breech in the levee....all are sinking. We have boats, marsh buggies, all kind of things that can get thru the water, but the landscape with all the water is not manageable right now. You may go thru just fine, then run up on concrete...covered by water, not able to be seen. I don't think it's the lack of equipment...it's the impact of the aftermath and extent of the damage that's left people unarmed. Oh, Great....now this STUPID reporter is doing a walk-thru of the Hard Rock Hotel/Bar/Casino in Biloxi which was totally wiped out, due to have their opening tonight. "There's Madonna's bustierre, here's so-and-so's gold record....well, here's an autographed guitar..." All that before they cut him off. Send in the looters...they've already gone into the slot machines....geez :eek:

[lbelle1214]

FEMA and the Guard and all of the first responders train for these types of scenarios all of the time.

This is true...but until you are faced with the actual event, you are still essentially 'unprepared', you're trained to deal with it. Factor in human emotion, unexpected catastrophic events, collateral damage and effects...and you've still esssentially practiced what to do, know what you should do....

[lbelle1214]

flying over Orleans, I am making a comment about these 2 butt munches in the picture is all.

Sorry...misunderstood your comment.

[estranged4life]

Oh, Great....now this STUPID reporter is doing a walk-thru of the Hard Rock Hotel/Bar/Casino in Biloxi which was totally wiped out, due to have their opening tonight. "There's Madonna's bustierre, here's so-and-so's gold record....well, here's an autographed guitar..." All that before they cut him off. Send in the looters...they've already gone into the slot machines....geez :eek:

if it was the Dallas Hard Rock Cafe (PSA time-Never eat at the Dallas HRC unless ya want food poisoning, Ask me from experience...Nuthing like attending a Fleetwood Mac show while trying to keep yer guts from spillin') a looter wouldnt find any Fleetwood Mac/Stevie Nicks items so it would be a waste of time to loot that place :rolleyes:

[estranged4life]

Sorry...misunderstood your comment.

its very easy to when posting on here :nod:

[Nixxxed]

I know many here do not like....let me take that back....hate Pres Bush...but right now, he is not playing guitar...he's in Air Force One flying over New Orleans. If you think that he does not care about these people, you're dead wrong.
Why wasn't he flying over on Monday, when it became clear this was a catastrophic disaster?

Oh - I know - he was eating birthday cake: http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/cake-723783.jpg

[lbelle1214]

if it was the Dallas Hard Rock Cafe (PSA time-Never eat at the Dallas HRC unless ya want food poisoning, Ask me from experience...Nuthing like attending a Fleetwood Mac show while trying to keep yer guts from spillin') a looter wouldnt find any Fleetwood Mac/Stevie Nicks items so it would be a waste of time to loot that place :rolleyes:

I can't imagine...being "all shook up" and trying to enjoy the show! That's terrible! It crossed my mind about the FM memorabilia in Biloxi....it'll show up on Ebay I'm sure :laugh:

[lbelle1214]

Why wasn't he flying over on Monday, when it became clear this was a catastrophic disaster?

Oh - I know - he was eating birthday cake: http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/cake-723783.jpg

I don't know...maybe it wasn't safe! I flew into Houston on Monday, but not until the afternoon. All flights were cancelled due to weather. The turbulence on Monday was HORRIBLE!!! We were the first flight to go over the gulf and that was at 3:00pm Fl time. And going to the north was not logical!

[gldstwmn]

In Iraq? I say give them whatever they need to get the job done, without compromising security here at home.
Too late.

You cannot plan for "whatever", let alone for a natural disaster of this magnitude. Army engineers at this very moment are trying 10,000 lbs sandbags, concrete barriers to fix the breech in the levee....all are sinking.
Post #92 addresses this very issue. There were plans to shore up the levees for a disaster of this kind. Their budget was cut a few months ago to divert money to the ongoing quagmire in Iraq.
.


Oh, Great....now this STUPID reporter is doing a walk-thru of the Hard Rock Hotel/Bar/Casino in Biloxi which was totally wiped out, due to have their opening tonight. "There's Madonna's bustierre, here's so-and-so's gold record....well, here's an autographed guitar..." All that before they cut him off. Send in the looters...they've already gone into the slot machines....geez :eek:

If you didn't know when you were getting your next paycheck and had no access to an ATM, can you honestly say you wouldn't be thinking the same thing yourself?

[gldstwmn]

if it was the Dallas Hard Rock Cafe (PSA time-Never eat at the Dallas HRC unless ya want food poisoning,

Last time I ate at the Hard Rock the food was terrible. :o

[estranged4life]

here in OKC did a piece on the current minor league baseball game/series in downtown OKC between the Oklahoma Redhawks & the New Orleans Zephyrs...

The Zephyrs players understandably have their minds elsewhere (Plenty of their players & their families have lost everything they own and 2 of their players are still in N'Orleans unheard from since Sunday.) and the OKC community is helping them out as best as possible (Remember, 10 years ago the rest of the country had to comfort us with the Murrah attack).

[Nixxxed]

I don't know...maybe it wasn't safe! I flew into Houston on Monday, but not until the afternoon. All flights were cancelled due to weather. The turbulence on Monday was HORRIBLE!!! We were the first flight to go over the gulf and that was at 3:00pm Fl time. And going to the north was not logical!
Then why have we been getting aerial video of the disaster areas of NO, Mississippi, and Alabama since about noon on Monday? A Cessna single engine airplane can fly over safely and Air Force One can't?

[lbelle1214]

Too late.

Post #92 addresses this very issue. There were plans to shore up the levees for a disaster of this kind. Their budget was cut a few months ago to divert money to the ongoing quagmire in Iraq.
.



If you didn't know when you were getting your next paycheck and had no access to an ATM, can you honestly say you wouldn't be thinking the same thing yourself?


No, it's not too late. Secondly, to comment on post #92...Louisiana has known of this problem for years, and years, and years....they did not drop below sea level recently. If you've ever driven over the roads in Louisiana, you'd know the priorities there are much different from others. Which is fine...
I agree with you about the money, to a point. It would cross my mind, but honestly....what are they gonna buy right now....and from who? Nobody's open. I believe that this was an act of greed. Just like the looting of clothing, jewelry, etc. Opportunistics....taking advantage of an easy situation (they think). Sorry, but if I were in the National Guard and martial law was called...if I caught you stealing anything other than food and water...I'd shoot ya!

[lbelle1214]

Then why have we been getting aerial video of the disaster areas of NO, Mississippi, and Alabama since about noon on Monday? A Cessna single engine airplane can fly over safely and Air Force One can't?

Stupid reporters! Besides, if you only looked at the initial damage, not the worst...which is just now occuring...you would only get a partial assessment of the situation. JMO

[DrummerDeanna]

I agree with you about the money, to a point. It would cross my mind, but honestly....what are they gonna buy right now....and from who? Nobody's open. I believe that this was an act of greed. Just like the looting of clothing, jewelry, etc. Opportunistics....taking advantage of an easy situation (they think). Sorry, but if I were in the National Guard and martial law was called...if I caught you stealing anything other than food and water...I'd shoot ya!


:nod:

The thought may cross my mind - but I couldn't go through with it -I could not live with myself.

it's stealing. There are honest ways to get what you need.

[lbelle1214]

One of the Wal-Mart's over there opened their doors....if they weren't open already...to let people just take what they need. I believe in a situation like this you will find that people will share what they have...you don't have to steal.

[Nixxxed]

Regarding this whole business of moving refugees to the Astrodome...

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/astrod02.jpg

Now, I know these people need someplace to go. I'm just not sure this is the best idea. As you'll see from the pic, they built the huge new Reliant Arena right next to the Astrodome (the smaller one, with the round roof). I've heard they've cleared the Astrodome calendar through Dec, but it will be business as usual at Reliant Stadium and the rest of the complex (several other smaller venues are there as well).

http://www.reliantpark.com/calendar/Calendar.asp

So, I just don't understand how this will work. There are football games (pro, college, and some high school), concerts, conventions, etc. etc. etc. that happen at this complex. They're certainly not going to let the NO citizens run around free. I'm afraid they're gonna basically be locked up in there. And the Astrodome doesn't have any sorts of facilities to support thousands and thousands of people - most notably showers.

And they're certainly not going to set up some sort of tent city in the parking lot, since they get nearly $10 a car for people coming in to the Reliant events that will still be going on. Plus, this same parking lot is used for the AstroWorld theme park, which is right across the street and is gearing up for Fright Nights Halloween festival and then a holiday festival starting in late Nov.

Besides - these people can't sleep in bleacher seats for 3 months (or longer, God forbid). Confused... :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Alright, alright. Picky, picky.

http://abc26.trb.com/news/natguard08012005,0,4504131.story?coll=wgno-news-1

LA National Guard Wants Equipment to Come Back From Iraq

Yunji de Nies

August 1, 2005, 9:07 PM CDT

JACKSON BARRACKS -- When members of the Louisiana National Guard left for Iraq in October, they took a lot equipment with them. Dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad, and in the event of a major natural disaster that, could be a problem.

"The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," said Lt. Colonel Pete Schneider with the LA National Guard.

Col. Schneider says the state has enough equipment to get by, and if Louisiana were to get hit by a major hurricane, the neighboring states of Mississippi, Alabama and Florida have all agreed to help.

"As Governor Bush did for Ivan, after they were hit so many times, he just maxed all of his resources out, he reached out to Louisiana and we sent 200 national guardsmen to help support in recovery efforts," Col. Schneider said.

Members of the Houma-based 256th Infantry will be returning in October, but it could be much longer before the rest of their equipment comes home.

"You've got combatant commanders over there who need it they say they need it, they don't want to lose what they have, and we certainly understand that it's a matter it's a matter of us educating that combatant commander, we need it back here as well," Col. Schneider said.

And even if commanders in Iraq release the equipment, getting it home takes months.

"It's just the process of identifying which equipment we're bringing home, bringing it down to Kuwait, loading it on ships or aircraft however we're gonna get it back here and then either railing it in or trucking it in, so we're talking a significant amount of time before that equipment is back home," Schneider said.

If I am not mistaken the bolded statements support my position and not your position :shrug: In other words, while it would be nice to have it for "homeland security" - they are able to get by with the help of other states, which is not what you asserted :shrug:

[Nixxxed]

:nod:

The thought may cross my mind - but I couldn't go through with it -I could not live with myself.

it's stealing. There are honest ways to get what you need.
The funny/ironic thing about all the non-essential-item looting is that is was basically pointless. All those people will now be evacuated, and they certainly won't be able to take all the stuff they stole with them. And I seriously doubt if the stuff will still be there when/if they are allowed to return.

[strandinthewind]

So you agree then that it would have been better to have the National Guard equipment there in the first place?

It was needed in Iraq - at least according to the article you posted :shrug:

[lbelle1214]

I'm just wondering how long it's going to take them to get there....316 miles is o.k. if you've got a straight shot. But even the bridge over the Atchafalaya River between Lafayette and Baton Rouge is closed (I-10), so it would seem to me that they should go northeast. Anything new about the tropical depression down south now?

[strandinthewind]

No, you're right. That photograph was taken yesterday, a good 12-15 hours after the levee had been breached.
For the record, I do not hate.

I almost do - I certainly loathe him and think he is the worst thing to happen to free thinking people and civil rights since Reagan, and that is saying a mouthful.

[estranged4life]

One of the Wal-Mart's over there opened their doors....if they weren't open already...to let people just take what they need. I believe in a situation like this you will find that people will share what they have...you don't have to steal.

some footage of a flooded Wal-Mart near N'Orleans and the PD watching the area around the Wal-Mart told the looters inside it is alright to take items for their survival.

[strandinthewind]

Why wasn't he flying over on Monday, when it became clear this was a catastrophic disaster?

Oh - I know - he was eating birthday cake: http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/cake-723783.jpg


Well, he wanted to go there personally, but the Govenors of Louisiana and Mississippi asked him to stay away as theuy had their hands full :shrug: This, BTW, is out of the respective gov.'s mouthes.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Post #92 addresses this very issue. There were plans to shore up the levees for a disaster of this kind. Their budget was cut a few months ago to divert money to the ongoing quagmire in Iraq . . . .

That is a little unfair as those plans, which are just the latest in a long, long line of unexcuted promised plans. So, to hang all of that on Iraq is not telling the whole story. Moreover and though the levees have had work and the ACE have done other substantial work over the years, there is no evidence the allegedly planned work would have completed in time to have helped in this case. This is the tortise govt. we are talking about here :eek:

[strandinthewind]

Then why have we been getting aerial video of the disaster areas of NO, Mississippi, and Alabama since about noon on Monday? A Cessna single engine airplane can fly over safely and Air Force One can't?

On Monday, it would have been unsafe as the winds were still there. As of Tues. afternoon it was probably safe, but, again, he asked to go and the Gov.'s asked him to stay away as his presence would take away from their efforts in the rescue operations. So, though I am not a fan of his, I cannot fault him there.

[Nixxxed]

Well, he wanted to go there personally, but the Govenors of Louisiana and Mississippi asked him to stay away as theuy had their hands full :shrug: This, BTW, is out of the respective gov.'s mouthes.
I was talking about him cancelling his political speeches about Iraq, and birthday cake/guitar photo ops and getting to work for real. How would a flyover to see the damage for himself on Monday (or even yesterday) in any way impact the recovery efforts? It's not the same as if he were touring the Garden District in a swamp boat.

Anyway - go back to arguing with Chris! ;) :laugh:

[skcin]

I heard power will be out for anywhere from 2 - 6 months. :shocked: This is the type of thing I can't get my head aroud - the utter devastation & death & people losing everything & having no where to go.

[strandinthewind]

The funny/ironic thing about all the non-essential-item looting is that is was basically pointless. All those people will now be evacuated, and they certainly won't be able to take all the stuff they stole with them. And I seriously doubt if the stuff will still be there when/if they are allowed to return.

With all due respect and drawing upon my personal experiences in the neighborhoods shown as well as with looters in general, we are not dealing with very intelligent or rationale thinking people here. My experience indicates these people have nothing to lose. They see the opportunity and they grab it, literally. Sad, very true and a horrible commentary on the plight of the poor in this country.

[lbelle1214]

I almost do - I certainly loathe him and think he is the worst thing to happen to free thinking people and civil rights since Reagan, and that is saying a mouthful.

Like I've said before, it's our difference that make us unique. I believe that everyone has a valuable opinion. Even yours! (Don't jump me...I'm just joking!) My son, my son-in-law, my brother, my dad...all military. So, my opinion is quite different. They tell me I do not know everything that's happening...there is a reason. I must believe them. I'm an outsider...I don't know what is REALLY going on...and it's probably best I didn't. But I do believe that OBL has it coming...just hide and watch...it'll be blind, without warning....just as it was done to us.

[Janet]

Hurricanes are horrible things and I think unless you have been thru one, you do not take it seriously.

I don't think I would have but after seeing the catastrophe that was Katrina, I hope people learn to leave and evacuate themselves.

It's horrible, all the death. I keep thinking of the Tsunami and how this is sweeping water taking so many lives.

[wondergirl9847]

I don't think I can have sympathy for anyone who didn't heed the warning and get the frick out or at least TRY to get out. These people who stayed behind in their homes, in the attics, whatever...I do not get it. Some probably saw it as an opportunity to loot, I don't know, but they are just stupid. Efforts to save them, when they could have gotten out are wasted, when they could be saving people who NEED it.

Sorry, JMO.

[strandinthewind]

I was talking about him cancelling his political speeches about Iraq, and birthday cake/guitar photo ops and getting to work for real. How would a flyover to see the damage for himself on Monday (or even yesterday) in any way impact the recovery efforts? It's not the same as if he were touring the Garden District in a swamp boat.

Anyway - go back to arguing with Chris! ;) :laugh:


Chris and I sure can argue :laugh:

But seriously, W has behaved without fault in this case and I am unsure how him getting in a mudboat and surveying the damage personally or even flying over it at 35,000 feet would demonstrate any more support than he has already demonstrated. Also, it would be a little presumptuous, even for the likes of him, to go in a move of bravada to an area being evacuated :shrug: Interestingly, no other President I can think of has haulted every other action in a situation like this - why is W being held to a higher standard.

[wondergirl9847]

He should NOT be down in a boat, in that disgusting water, surveying, but a flyover was necessary for him to gauge this. Seeing it on TV is heartbreaking, I cannot imagine seeing it from overhead. :distress:

Too much security and sanitary issues for him to be down on the ground, but I'm glad he's up in the plane looking at the damage.

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't think I can have sympathy for anyone who didn't heed the warning and get the frick out or at least TRY to get out. These people who stayed behind in their homes, in the attics, whatever...I do not get it. Some probably saw it as an opportunity to loot, I don't know, but they are just stupid. Efforts to save them, when they could have gotten out are wasted, when they could be saving people who NEED it.

Sorry, JMO.


:nod:

A woman I work with is from Louisiana -and she was in NO this past weekend- and when the order came to get out - she GOT OUT!

When I interviewed her yesterday that was her main piece of advice- to get out when you're told...

That comes from a 50+ year resident of LA - she's only been up here for a couple of years...

So some pepole apparently do know to get out when they're told to.

[lbelle1214]

I don't think I can have sympathy for anyone who didn't heed the warning and get the frick out or at least TRY to get out. These people who stayed behind in their homes, in the attics, whatever...I do not get it. Some probably saw it as an opportunity to loot, I don't know, but they are just stupid. Efforts to save them, when they could have gotten out are wasted, when they could be saving people who NEED it.

Sorry, JMO.

I agree with ya! Now it seems that people are intentionally driving thru water...insurance claims to file, you know...it really takes the focus off the people who are in desperate need. Some people have no shame...

[strandinthewind]

Like I've said before, it's our difference that make us unique. I believe that everyone has a valuable opinion. Even yours! (Don't jump me...I'm just joking!) My son, my son-in-law, my brother, my dad...all military. So, my opinion is quite different. They tell me I do not know everything that's happening...there is a reason. I must believe them. I'm an outsider...I don't know what is REALLY going on...and it's probably best I didn't. But I do believe that OBL has it coming...just hide and watch...it'll be blind, without warning....just as it was done to us.

It would be nice if W gave $0.02 about OBL - but by his own admission, he is not really thinking about him anymore because W thinks OBL has been marginalized.

Also, I was talking not really about Iraq, which by itself was conjured in lies and deceit - making it worthy of my dislike of W.

I was talking about W and Rove's conscious use of gay people as scapegoats in the last election. I mean they deliberately used the mere thought of gay marriage or really any gay rights as a tool to whip up the even comparatively slightly religious people in this country to forget about the disasterous consequences of the ill conceived, planned, and executed war in Iraq. They knew people hated gay people so much that all could be forgiven in Iraq if gay people were stomped upon for daring to request that they be allowed the same Federal rights automatically given to straight married people because of religion. I shudder to think how many gay people were beaten out of hate as a result of this political move.

Then, they get the churches to say or imply that people will not get Communion if they vote for D's because D's are abortionists. Interestingly, the official position of the Roman Catholic Church is the death penalty is murder, just like abortion is to them. Yet, no mention of voting for R's, who support the death penalty, was ever mentioned. How is that correct and not hypocritical?

Those are just two of the things W and his posse have done to set back civil rights.

But, everyone has their own opinions - that is mine.

[estranged4life]

N'Orleans is now saying "thousands are probably dead".

Faux News Channel is showing people trapped on top of a roof holding a sign that simply says "Help Us".

[strandinthewind]

I just heard that W will be going there tommorow. We'll see.

[lbelle1214]

It would be nice if W gave $0.02 about OBL - but by his own admission, he is not really thinking about him anymore because W thinks OBL has been marginalized.

Also, I was talking not really about Iraq, which by itself was conjured in lies and deceit - making it worthy of my dislike of W.

I was talking about W and Rove's conscious use of gay people as scapegoats in the last election. I mean they deliberately used the mere thought of gay marriage or really any gay rights as a tool to whip up the even comparatively slightly religious people in this country to forget about the disasterous consequences of the ill conceived, planned, and executed war in Iraq. They knew people hated gay people so much that all could be forgiven in Iraq if gay people were stomped upon for daring to request that they be allowed the same Federal rights automatically given to straight married people because of religion. I shudder to think how many gay people were beaten out of hate as a result of this political move.

Then, they get the churches to say or imply that people will not get Communion if they vote for D's because D's are abortionists. Interestingly, the official position of the Roman Catholic Church is the death penalty is murder, just like abortion is to them. Yet, no mention of voting for R's, who support the death penalty, was ever mentioned. How is that correct and not hypocritical?

Those are just two of the things W and his posse have done to set back civil rights.

But, everyone has their own opinions - that is mine.

I understand...and I pray that OBL also believes the first comment you made...it will make the revenge so much sweeter....I'm telling you...it's coming. Don't believe it has been dropped or forgotten.
As for the rest...I'm neither Democrat or Republican, although my Dad raised me to BE a democrat! I just have my own views....and I respect yours.

[SuzeQuze]

N'Orleans is now saying "thousands are probably dead".

Faux News Channel is showing people trapped on top of a roof holding a sign that simply says "Help Us".

Thousands??? Omigod! :distress:

[gldstwmn]

One of the Wal-Mart's over there opened their doors....if they weren't open already...to let people just take what they need. I believe in a situation like this you will find that people will share what they have...you don't have to steal.

They are not giving it away. They are, in fact, open for business. Just saw that report on MSNBC.

[strandinthewind]

Thousands??? Omigod! :distress:

My friends there tell me the amount of corpses is staggaring. Again, they are not collecting these yet and concentrating on the rescuing the living. They should, IMO, get these corpses out of the water as soon possible, though the raw sewage and already cholera infested water makes the immediate removal of the corpses (human and other) somewhat less exigent.

[gldstwmn]

Operation Cake Drop:

<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050831/capt.wx10508311751.bush_katrina_wx105.jpg">

[lbelle1214]

The WM I saw was not open for business...there were Nat'l Guard personnel letting people in to get food.

I don't think the one letting people in to buy is the same one I was talking about....this one had their whole gun department wiped out by looters.

[gldstwmn]

I just have to say that I find the lack of empathy and compassion in the face of such a tragedy astounding.

[strandinthewind]

I understand...and I pray that OBL also believes the first comment you made...it will make the revenge so much sweeter....I'm telling you...it's coming. Don't believe it has been dropped or forgotten.
As for the rest...I'm neither Democrat or Republican, although my Dad raised me to BE a democrat! I just have my own views....and I respect yours.

I am neither R nor D as well. I just think that America was meant to be a place where people could avoid religious persecution. I see that happening now under the guise of patriotism and it scares me to death.

[strandinthewind]

I just have to say that I find the lack of empathy and compassion in the face of such a tragedy astounding.

By whom?

I think the govt.'s are responding in a good manner as are the American people in general, though there is some grousing about Federal dollars being used to rebuild this region.

I am shocked, however, at the world's blase' attitude, esp. whenever there is any horrible natural disaster in another country, the US takes the lead. Maybe the media is just not reporting it.

Personally, I think the people there are going though a living hell and I wish it were not so. My only beef is with the people who could have evacuated but selfishly and stupidly chose not to. I have just seen that type of behaviour so many times and I no what the end result it and that innocents will suffer because of it. That is my only beef. Well, that and the non necessary looters.

On edit - I am not being snarky :cool:

[strandinthewind]

Operation Cake Drop:

<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050831/capt.wx10508311751.bush_katrina_wx105.jpg">

You are so bad :nod: :nod: :nod: :lol:

[GypsySorcerer]

I just have to say that I find the lack of empathy and compassion in the face of such a tragedy astounding.
I agree with you.

[johndoe]

I don't think its the world being blase about it, its just that we don't hear about them being sympathetic.

But still, the stories I'm hearing about around 1000 people in New Orleans being dead are really shocking, and I don't think there are words to describe how absolutly terrible that is.

[lbelle1214]

I'm confused....who's not empathetic with this tragedy? You have thousands and thousands of people, military, etc responding to help. It's just going to take some time. The people in Florida still have not recovered from Andrew and the 4 storms from last season. Are you talking about lack of sympathy for those who are taking advantage of this situation? :confused:

[estranged4life]

<div align=center><img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050831/capt.wx10508311751.bush_katrina_wx105.jpg">
"Money...money...money...Mon-nay!!! Thank God for those gasoline investments, That should keep the twins in alcohol for about a few weeks at best...And I could use a good snort right now myself"</div>

[SuzeQuze]

My friends there tell me the amount of corpses is staggaring. Again, they are not collecting these yet and concentrating on the rescuing the living. They should, IMO, get these corpses out of the water as soon possible, though the raw sewage and already cholera infested water makes the immediate removal of the corpses (human and other) somewhat less exigent.

How are your friends? I hope they are well and safe. I am shocked by this, so shocked. I feel so sad for the people of NO. The Red Cross site was very slow so it is probably very busy receiving donations. People really are mostly generous in a crisis.

[strandinthewind]

My brother left on one of 500 boats going from Lafayette (about 100 West) on an emissary to help with the rescue operations. I am a little terrified for his safety. He is there though and was sobbing at the horror.

Dear God - Show us the way back.

[SuzeQuze]

My brother left on one of 500 boats going from Lafayette (about 100 West) on an emissary to help with the rescue operations. I am a little terrified for his safety. He is there though and was sobbing at the horror.

Dear God - Show us the way back.

Oh the poor baby, I'm so sorry he has to see that. Awful.

[David]

My friends there tell me the amount of corpses is staggaring. Again, they are not collecting these yet and concentrating on the rescuing the living. They should, IMO, get these corpses out of the water as soon possible, though the raw sewage and already cholera infested water makes the immediate removal of the corpses (human and other) somewhat less exigent.This is really gross but it's a reality: the same thing happened in Sissano Lagoon in Papua New Guinea after the great tsunami of 1998. The lagoon was separated from the open ocean by a spit, & the flooding brought all the saltwater crocodiles into the lagoon to feast on all the corpses.

In Louisiana, there are already reports of sharks & gators swimming freely throughout the area, & every news report shows people -- rescuers & rescuees -- mucking around in the waist-deep water. It's shiver-inducing.

As if sharks & gators weren't bad enough, you have all these venomous serpents -- rattlers, cottonmouth water moccasins, corals, etc. -- slithering around in the water (snakes are great swimmers), having been disturbed from their dens. Many people have been bitten by poisonous snakes in water all over the world; snakes can bite while they're swimming.

It's just horrifying. I think as many people as can be spotted in those areas should be airlifted by helicopter out of there asap. Take them to Red Cross centers that aren't in or near the swamps or flooded areas.

[David]

My brother left on one of 500 boats going from Lafayette (about 100 West) on an emissary to help with the rescue operations. I am a little terrified for his safety. He is there though and was sobbing at the horror.Good luck to him, strand. He'll be okay.

[GypsySorcerer]

It's just horrifying. I think as many people as can be spotted in those areas should be airlifted by helicopter out of there asap. Take them to Red Cross centers that aren't in or near the swamps or flooded areas.
:nod: I fear for the break-outs of disease if they are not evacuated immediately.

[SuzeQuze]

This is really gross but it's a reality: the same thing happened in Sissano Lagoon in Papua New Guinea after the great tsunami of 1998. The lagoon was separated from the open ocean by a spit, & the flooding brought all the saltwater crocodiles into the lagoon to feast on all the corpses.

In Louisiana, there are already reports of sharks & gators swimming freely throughout the area, & every news report shows people -- rescuers & rescuees -- mucking around in the waist-deep water. It's shiver-inducing.

As if sharks & gators weren't bad enough, you have all these venomous serpents -- rattlers, cottonmouth water moccasins, corals, etc. -- slithering around in the water (snakes are great swimmers), having been disturbed from their dens. Many people have been bitten by poisonous snakes in water all over the world; snakes can bite while they're swimming.

It's just horrifying. I think as many people as can be spotted in those areas should be airlifted by helicopter out of there asap. Take them to Red Cross centers that aren't in or near the swamps or flooded areas.

That's so frightening. I wish I could help them get out. Then smack them silly for not heeding the evacuation order. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

If you go to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ and click on the "Images" tab - you can see some of the horror.

Caution - it contains very graphic images

[strandinthewind]

Good luck to him, strand. He'll be okay.

Thank you (and to all) -

As for the snakes, after Betsy and Camille, they would find families on roofs with live snakes hanging off of them - I guess they were trying to eat the bodies.

This is a little too much for me to process right now.

[dissention]

:nod: I fear for the break-outs of disease if they are not evacuated immediately.

On "Today" this morning, they were discussing how pretty soon there are going to be massive breakouts of dysentery and how it's going to be quite horrific since there are such logistical problems in getting clean water to these poor people.

[SuzeQuze]

They will be covering this on Dateline tonight including survivor stories.

[strandinthewind]

Little progress in efforts to fix levees
Repair work might actually worsen situation, one source says

By Mike Stuckey
Senior News Editor
MSNBC
Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET Aug. 31, 2005



Floodwaters continued to pour into New Orleans unabated Wednesday, hindering attempts to repair damaged levees that surround the below-sea-level city. And an Army Corps of Engineers spokesman warned that the repair work could actually make the situation worse.

So great was the chaos created by the watery disaster that it was impossible to get official information on the extent of the damage to the levees or the state of efforts to patch them. (A 3 p.m. ET news conference could shed more light on repair work.)

But all sources agreed that the post-Hurricane Katrina nightmare was worsening, with the water continuing to rise in many places and little, if anything, had been accomplished to fix the breaches.

“You know, we’ve got an unprecedented situation here,” U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesman John Hall told MSNBC.com via cell phone from New Orleans.

Hall said his own attempts to round up current information were being stymied because “I’m on the phone every minute” with reporters from around the globe. But he could say that the biggest problem remained a breach in the eastern wall of the 17th Street Canal.

“Last I heard,” the breach was 300 feet long, from 4 feet to 20 feet deep, “all under water,” Hall said. Other reports, including one on the Web site of the New Orleans Times-Picayune, have estimated the breach to be as long as “500 yards and growing.”

Millions of gallons
The gap was allowing millions of gallons of water from Lake Pontchartrain, normally about sea level, but now several feet higher than that in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, to flood scores of New Orleans neighborhoods.

To the east, levees were also breached on the Industrial Canal, dumping water into the city’s famed French Quarter.


Repair efforts were focused on the 17th Street Canal rupture, but nobody contacted by MSNBC.com could say how they were proceeding Wednesday. Initial efforts to drop 3,000-pound sandbags via helicopter failed, the city’s mayor, Ray Nagin, said Tuesday night. While the weight of the bags may sound impressive, at a cubic yard apiece they are only the size of large refrigerator.

Mark Lambert of the Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development on Tuesday night told the Times-Picayune that an attempt to drop 15,000-pound concrete highway barriers into the breach was being planned. But by noon ET on Wednesday, Lambert could not say if that plan had been carried out.

“They’re going to try everything they can,” the Corps’ Hall said. But he pointed out that the 17th Street site has ”no land side access and no navigational access. … This is a drainage canal.” So engineers can’t drive heavy equipment to the breach and they can’t get barges close enough to work on it. A nearby railroad line might prove helpful, Hall said.

Confounding access issues are engineers’ fears that their own efforts might worsen some aspects of the flooding.


“As we narrow the gap, we’re going to face greater water velocity coming in,” Hall said. “We have to evaluate as we go. How long that takes, I don’t know. .. You must test. You must place material in there and then watch the impact.”

Mounting frustration over the inability to use conventional methods to fix the gaps have led to calls from some quarters to try bolder methods.

Throw barges at it?
“Move several barges into position ahead of the breech, in parallel fashion, fill them with water and sink them in place,” said Michael W. Holcomb, a senior environmental specialist with Dallas-based refiner Alon USA. “Stabilize somehow and then begin placing concrete around the gaps, and slowly then fill in the spaces with increasingly smaller and smaller fill material and effectively seal the breach well enough to allow repairs to the levee itself.”

A similar idea was being broached Wednesday the Corp’s own Maj. Gen. Don Riley, who pointed out once again that staunching the floodwaters is only a first step. After that, it could take close to a month to get the water out of the city, Riley said.

Maybe longer, said flood expert Gary Guhl of the engineering firm PBS&J.

“That’s a tremendous amount of water, that will take quite a while” said Guhl, who works on flood maps for the Federal Emergency Management Agency and spent four years with the Corps in the New Orleans area.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9145473/
____________________________________________________________

I cannot believe they cannot fix that breach. It seemingly would close of 1,000 of those bags were dropped almost in unison :shrug: But, I am not an engineer.

[David]

I cannot believe they cannot fix that breach. It seemingly would close of 1,000 of those bags were dropped almost in unison :shrug: But, I am not an engineer.I guess New Orleans was one of the country's most picturesque, charming cities, & certainly people loved it far & wide. But from an engineer's perspective, it was a 300-year-old mistake. Building a city on the coastline below sea level is a grave error -- on this coastline, especially, because there is an expected 3-foot rise in sea level over the next few years.

I wonder where Louisianans are going to rebuild. If they had any sense, the whole area would be revamped for port facilities, the wetlands & other natural buffers would be restored, & the infrastructure would be rebuilt on higher ground. Maybe borrow some engineering ideas from the Dutch, who have mastered the craft of sophisticated dikes.

I think I posted something a few months ago about nature: something about not challenging it because it will usually win. If you put people & development on a coastline below sea level, you kill them just as if you had fired a rifle at them.

[estranged4life]

By Mike Stuckey
Senior News Editor
MSNBC
Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET Aug. 31, 2005

“You know, we’ve got an unprecedented situation here,” U.S. Army Corps of Engineers spokesman John Hall told MSNBC.com via cell phone from New Orleans.


I remember back in 1986 when the Arkansas River flooded due to excessive rain traveling down from Kansas...The Corp of Army Idiots decided to leave the dam at Keystone Lake closed because they figured the water flood levels would not be as bad to affect anything along the Arkansas River, Until the water poured (!!!) over the dam forcing these ass-a-techs to open the dam or watch the dam suffer failure and collapse costing lives...Thus flooding the banks of the river throughout Tulsa.

They did not realize that the flooding Arkansas River meets with 2 other flooded lakes in my hometown of Muskogee...So you can imagine the mess they made.

The USS Batfish (A decorated WWII submarine) that is in permanent dry-dock on the shores of the Arkansas River at the Port of Muskogee was under water for the first (And thus far only) time since it was still in commission...Looked funny to see the periscope & con towers pertruding out of the water, Made ya think that Muskogee was being invaded by the USSR

The highway between Muskogee & Okay (Highway 16) was under at least 10-15 feet of water, Therefore cutting off Okay from any rescue...I remembering seeing this firsthand and being scared ****less!!!

All this would have been avoided had the Army of Buttmunches would have just opened the gates of the dam.

[amber]

I guess New Orleans was one of the country's most picturesque, charming cities, & certainly people loved it far & wide. But from an engineer's perspective, it was a 300-year-old mistake. Building a city on the coastline below sea level is a grave error -- on this coastline, especially, because there is an expected 3-foot rise in sea level over the next few years.

I wonder where Louisianans are going to rebuild. If they had any sense, the whole area would be revamped for port facilities, the wetlands & other natural buffers would be restored, & the infrastructure would be rebuilt on higher ground. Maybe borrow some engineering ideas from the Dutch, who have mastered the craft of sophisticated dikes.

I think I posted something a few months ago about nature: something about not challenging it because it will usually win. If you put people & development on a coastline below sea level, you kill them just as if you had fired a rifle at them.
:nod: :distress:
This is true, and I'm so sad such a wonderful city was built where it was. I've never even seen it.
My sorrow over this is overwhelming. I really hope they do rebuild on higher ground.

[strandinthewind]

Canal breach update

Wednesday, 1:40 p.m.

By Jan Moller

BATON ROUGE - Water levels in Orleans Parish have crested and are beginning to slowly recede as the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers prepares to begin an unprecedented effort to fix a 200-foot breach in the 17th Street Canal that has inundated the city, state and federal officials said Wednesday.

State Secrertary of Transportation and Development Johnny Bradberry said Lake Pontchatrain has receded by two feet since yesterday as water levels equalized between the lake and the flooded city interior.

"The good news here is that we've stabilized. Water is not rising in the city," Bradberry said.

Maj. Gen. Don Reily of the Corps of Engineers said flood levels are now receding at a rate of one inch per hour, but that it's likely to take at least 30 days before all the water is gone from New Orleans. "Lake level has equalized with interior water inside the city,. which means that it won't be any more flowing into the city except for a high tide," Reily said.

The Corps and the Louisiana National Guard are planning to use Chinook helicopters to drop 1,200 bags of sand into the breach weighing 20,000 pounds each, and 250 concrete highway construction barriers. In the meantime, they are using smaller bags of sand, weighing 3,000 pounds apiece, to try to stem the deluge.

Fixing the levee breach has been the Corps' top priority, as the lengthy process of pumping water out of Orleans cannot begin until the canal walls are secure.

State officials announced the operation Tuesday and spent the night getting equipment into place, a process that was complicated when officials could not get enough slings that are needed to drop the material into the breach.

"The issue that we had was not enough slings," Bradberry said. "When you release a 3,000 bag of sand the sling goes with it."

Reily said the corps is also working with the Orleans Sewerage and Water Board and the Orleans Levee Board on efforts to close the entrance to the canal from Lake Pontchrartrain. In the last day three barges of rock have been brought into the lake to help with that effort.

Also, U.S. Sen. David Vitter, R-La., said he has spoken with President Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., about putting together a "major" financial relief package for Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama when Congress returns from its August recess next week.

"Everyone gets it. This isn't simply a bad hurricane," Vitter said. "This is an ongoing challenge and an ongoing situation which takes enormous response, including enormous federal response."

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075446

[strandinthewind]

I guess New Orleans was one of the country's most picturesque, charming cities, & certainly people loved it far & wide. But from an engineer's perspective, it was a 300-year-old mistake. Building a city on the coastline below sea level is a grave error -- on this coastline, especially, because there is an expected 3-foot rise in sea level over the next few years.

I wonder where Louisianans are going to rebuild. If they had any sense, the whole area would be revamped for port facilities, the wetlands & other natural buffers would be restored, & the infrastructure would be rebuilt on higher ground. Maybe borrow some engineering ideas from the Dutch, who have mastered the craft of sophisticated dikes.

I think I posted something a few months ago about nature: something about not challenging it because it will usually win. If you put people & development on a coastline below sea level, you kill them just as if you had fired a rifle at them.


They tried for years, but the politicians were crooked, pockets were lined, etc. The most startlingly obvious solution would have been the raise and reinforce the levees with steel and then have back up levees behind them. But, the plans never got executed.

here are some pretty cool background articles

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_15_11/ai_68642805

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/bcarre/pastflood.htm

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/prj/fisherschool/index.htm



Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere :shrug:


Well yeah - but the risk is greater in certain areas....New Mexico doesn't have severe weather - save Tornados near Texas/Oklahoma :shrug:

[estranged4life]

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere :shrug:

hit by 3 tornadoes in a span of 5 years (Moore is a suburb of OKC, Estimated population 85,000 ) and each time the tornado took the same identical paths of destruction :eek:

[estranged4life]

will be speaking at any moment now about Hurricane Katrina.

[amber]

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere :shrug:
Some places are expotentially more moronic than others, though. Most cities were built a long time ago, though, so it's understandable. However, what they haven't done since they've had the knowledge to do so is unforgivable. I am dumbfounded when I hear how many buildings here are not retrofitted for earthquakes. :shrug: I am dumbfounded to hear what was not done in NO. A city below sea level, in the gulf?! hurricane central?! Criminal.
Also, I'd like to note, I can't think of any natural disaster that has ever befallen my hometown.... :p

[Livia]

This may have been posted already, but I don't have time to read thru this whole thread.

I also just wanted to add my 2 cents: the looting is pissing me off - our government not rushing to aid these people is pissing me off - which in turn, makes me less pissed about the looters who stole food only - I watched some news coverage at lunchtime and I am heartbroken, to see one of my favorite cities in such a state of destruction...saw a story in Biloxi, MS: It took the Red Cross 2 days to get food and water to these folks. That's inexcusable to me! How much is the war in Iraq costing us??? Grrrr.......


Benefit concert Friday nite:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/08/31/katrina.concert/index.html

Benefits for hurricane victims

(CNN) -- Victims of Hurricane Katrina will be getting a little help from celebrities.

NBC Universal has scheduled "A Concert for Hurricane Relief," a benefit telethon to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina, the company announced in a press release Wednesday.

The hourlong show will air Friday on NBC, MSNBC and CNBC.

The concert will include country singer Tim McGraw, pianist and singer Harry Connick Jr. and jazz trumpeter Wynton Marsalis, all Louisiana natives. Matt Lauer will host.

Viewers will be encouraged to donate to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund in support of hurricane relief, according to the press release.

Also Wednesday, a Morgan Freeman-organized auction of celebrity- and corporate-donated items was announced.

The auction, which includes a screening of Freeman's upcoming film, "An Unfinished Life," a resort getaway and memorabilia packages from various movies, will open Friday on the Charity Folks Web site. Proceeds will go the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund as well.

"It's sort of well-known that anytime any catastrophe happens anywhere in the world, they can count on the United States for help," Freeman told The Associated Press in a phone interview.

"Now, charity begins at home, so we call on anybody who has even the thought [of giving] to get beyond the thought and help these people," the 68-year-old actor said.

Freeman was born in Memphis, Tennessee, and lives in the Mississippi Delta. His property missed the hurricane's harshest damage, he told the AP.

Hurricane Katrina, which hit the Gulf Coast Monday morning, has devastated coastal regions of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. The Hurricane damaged the southeast coast of Florida days earlier.

[Mad4stevie]

My brother left on one of 500 boats going from Lafayette (about 100 West) on an emissary to help with the rescue operations. I am a little terrified for his safety. He is there though and was sobbing at the horror.

Dear God - Show us the way back.

I know how you feel - my boyfriend is on the way down as well because he works in crisis management with hurricanes. From what he says, all their research in this area could not reasonably predicted such total horror. He is not there yet, but is very nervous about what he will actually see while he is there. For sure, it will be a life changing event for him (maybe he will be scared sober . . .).

God bless and protect all those helping with this terrible crisis.

[David]

Interestingly, there is no safe place to build a city. Natural disasters can happen just about anywhere :shrug:I would amend that to say: There is no completely safe place to build a city.

But you try to stack the odds in your favor. It's like internetworking security: "100 percent secure" is a myth. But you implement firewalls, antivirus software & other measures to afford you a level of protection that you don't otherwise have.

When you develop on a large scale, you build in safeguards & you implement measures that afford you a level of protection that you don't otherwise have. An example: The good folk of Hilo Bay in Hawaii, after suffering through multiple disasters, finally got the picture. There is now a beautiful grassy park between the downtown district & the mighty ocean. Another example would be earthquake-proofing buildings with state-of-the-art codes in earthquake country.

But one thing I would think you never, never do -- anywhere in the world at this point -- is to develop along a coastline below sea level.

As thousands of years of civilization have taught virtually all societies: Sooner or later, the sea will out.

[Mad4stevie]

Just about six hours before landfall, one of the news channels I was watching interviewed a father & teenaged son -- a couple of numbnuts (the father moreso, obviously) who stood there in front of the camera, uttering every type of imbecility imaginable. The reporter asked them why they didn't plan to evacuate when meteorologists were saying the storm was going to create a storm surge that would bury much of coastal New Orleans like a tsunami & so forth, & numbnuts Dad & Son just stood there saying, "No way, man. That ain't going to happen. It ain't the same thing" blah blah blah.

The reporter was just dumbfounded.

I wonder where numbnuts Dad & Son are now. I don't wish bad things on dumb people (only on bad people), but I can't help thinking that natural selection is at work.

I saw these fools, too. They sounded so stupid and seemed proud of themselves for having made it on tv.

When the reporter questioned them about why they weren't worried about the comparison to the Asian tsunami, they said, "It ain't the same thing, man. A tidal surge is different than a tsumani. We will know when it is coming, and after all, we are a mile from the coastline". I have a bad feeling that something really happened to these people. So stupid and so sad.

[Mad4stevie]

Did you see all the footage of the coffins that have been displaced from their gravesites? God, its like a horror movie . . .

[strandinthewind]

Did you see all the footage of the coffins that have been displaced from their gravesites? God, its like a horror movie . . .

I've seen that in person. It does not really bother me because in New Orleans, the dead are always with us - in fact the graveyards are like Cities of the Dead and are often referred to as such.

[amber]

I've seen that in person. It does not really bother me because in New Orleans, the dead are always with us - in fact the graveyards are like Cities of the Dead and are often referred to as such.
That's true. :o I know it's stupid, but I can't stop crying about this. I would call NO the most unique and wonderful and strange city in the whole country. I just keep thinking "well, the people will keep the culture and spirit alive, hopefully on higher ground". But that only helps a little, especially because I never got to see the city. :o Heartbreaking.

[gldstwmn]

I just heard that W will be going there tommorow. We'll see.

Then he can go to Camp David for the weekend on Friday. :rolleyes:

[gldstwmn]

The WM I saw was not open for business...there were Nat'l Guard personnel letting people in to get food.

That was footage from yesterday in NOLA.

[gldstwmn]

I agree with you.

Who said it would never happen? :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

I don't think its the world being blase about it, its just that we don't hear about them being sympathetic.



Some of the first pictures I posted in another thread were from a newspaper in Italy. The story was front page news.
Canada offered us their support this morning. I've been gone most of the afternoon so I'm not sure who else has ponied up.

[gldstwmn]

People really are mostly generous in a crisis.

Very true. :)

[gldstwmn]

:nod: I fear for the break-outs of disease if they are not evacuated immediately.

I heard from a friend that has family there that some of them are being quarantined.

[gldstwmn]

That's so frightening. I wish I could help them get out. Then smack them silly for not heeding the evacuation order. :distress:

I'm only going to make this point one more time, I promise. There were people who were unable to evacuate for a variety of reasons, mostly financial.

[GypsySorcerer]

I heard from a friend that has family there that some of them are being quarantined.
Have you heard anything about the VA in NOLA? At least 150 were there, and I heard the generators had run out of fuel. I hope they've been airlifted out. :distress:

[gldstwmn]

Have you heard anything about the VA in NOLA? At least 150 were there, and I head the generators had run out of fuel. I hope they've been airlifted out. :distress:

No. But I will keep my eyes open and let you know if I see anything.

[strandinthewind]

CNN: Heartbreak and destruction in small towns and large
Editor's Note: CNN correspondents report back on what they are seeing in New Orleans and other Gulf Coast communities hit by Hurricane Katrina.

New Orleans destruction recalls past tragedies
Posted: 4:12 p.m. ET
CNN's Jeanne Meserve in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

On the way out of New Orleans, it looked like the dust bowl. You've seen the pictures of the dust bowl, of people piled onto the backs of tracks and moving their lives. That's what is happening here. It's extraordinary to witness.

I truly believe that apart from 9/11 this is one of the most significant events that has ever hit this country. Anybody who tells you this disaster is going to be rectified in a matter of months hasn't seen the situation.

People are carrying their children, trying to get them to safety. A woman coming down to the police, close to hysterics, saying, "My elderly mother is in a building over there, she needs dialysis. She can't get it. She is dying. Can you help me?"

And the police had to say, "There is absolutely nothing we can do. We don't have a precinct house. We don't have communication. There is absolutely nothing we can do for you."

That was amazing to me.

The other thing that struck me was the looting. The police were standing in the middle of the street and right in front of them stores were being ransacked. And they didn't even make an effort to stop it. I don't think they could, under the circumstances.

They were totally outnumbered. They couldn't call for any reinforcements. And frankly, the priority now isn't property. The priority has to be people and people's lives. The police are there protectively, I think, in case things escalate even further. But they are powerless. They're powerless in this situation.

We did see tree removal trucks, electric trucks. So help is beginning to come in. We even saw, and this was a very strong image, Air Force One, or what we believed was Air Force One.

That was a powerful image to us because we've been out of communication, unaware really of what's happening in the outside world. This was a sign that you've heard, that you've heard and listened.

New Orleans a refugee city
Posted: 3:46 p.m. ET
CNN's Jim Spellman in New Orleans, Louisiana

New Orleans has fast become a refugee city. Thousands and thousands of people are seeking shelter on the highway overpasses looking for some sort of help, some sort of information.

They are screaming out to us and anybody around for water and for help. They are looking for information and for a way to get out.

On the highway overpasses and underneath the highways as well, people are trying to find a spot for themselves. Prison buses are streaming by to evacuate prisoners and a lot of people are very, very upset that they aren't getting help, but the prisoners are.

We have seen looting all day long. We actually went right up to a Walgreens where people were trying on shoes to get the correct size. They were picking out whatever it is they wanted -- televisions, just anything they could get. The police have definitely been trying to keep it to a minimum. The police are in boats but there's really nothing they can do. I don't know where they would even take anybody. They are taking all the looted material and they are trying to keep the chaos to a minimum.

Today is the first day when I think lack of water is starting to become a problem. It's about in the 90s. It's extremely humid here. And people are just baking out on these highways. There is nowhere else for them to go.

New Orleans airport becomes makeshift hospital
Posted: 2:20 p.m. ET
CNN's Ed Lavandera in Kenner, Louisiana

I just spoke with one of the officials here who is in charge of organizing the entire logistical situation at the Louis Armstrong International Airport here in New Orleans. This is where over the last 12 hours a team of FEMA workers have been setting up a field hospital, one of about 40 or so that have been set up across the region.

To give you a sense of just how massive this operation is, consider that in the four major hurricanes that hit Florida last year there were never more than five of these field hospitals set up at any time.

This one here at the New Orleans airport will turn out probably to be one of the most effective ones. In the last hour, we've seen four Coast Guard helicopters dropping off people who need medical attention. The inside of the terminal here has been turned into a makeshift hospital. There are FedEx trucks that have been turned into pharmacies on wheels.

The head of that logistical operation is hearing rumors that as many as 20 helicopter missions will be returning here to the tarmac and bringing more patients. And just because there are 20 helicopters doesn't mean that's just 20 people. There could be dozens of people brought in.

We understand these could be people who are literally just being plucked from their homes. There are people who are trapped in hospitals or other shelters who need immediate medical attention who also are being brought in. A lot of that is going on.

Since we've been here, we've seen helicopters landing. We've seen a couple planes land as well. But by no means does this mean that just anybody can come flying into the New Orleans airport. I think it is kind of obvious, but the aviation director here at the airport was telling me that for the next several weeks the only people probably allowed to land at this airport will be those that are involved in the humanitarian mission here, the rescue mission and the relief mission.

It could be as long as two months before this airport returns to normal for regular civilian air traffic.

New Orleans getting worse by the hour
Posted: 1:03 p.m. ET
CNN's John Zarella in New Orleans, Louisiana

We are part of a convoy of CNN personnel who left the city. We left the hotel this morning. As we did so, we helped evacuate people from it.

We drove on the sidewalks to stay high enough out of the water so the cars would not bog down until we made it over to Canal Street. Canal Street was dry in the middle. We stopped where the police were and I told one of the officers that we had these evacuees from the hotel and that we were told to drop them off there with him. He said, "Well, we're not going anywhere. We're only here because we can't get back to our station. Everything's flooded under water."

So they're sitting in the middle of Canal Street. We took the evacuees to another area by another hotel and dropped them off there.

We wound our way through the city this morning through back streets and side streets, downed power lines, around downed industries. We were driving on the wrong side of the road periodically, up along the Mississippi bank, along the levee and finally made it over the Huey P. Long Bridge on Highway 90. We are making our way up to Baton Rouge now. Highway 90 is a steady stream of traffic.

In New Orleans, there's no sanitation any longer. The knee-deep water in the hotel lobby is just full of stench. It is a miserable, deteriorating situation in the city and it is growing worse by the hour and the water is rising.

The fact of the matter is this bowl, as they call it, is filling up. The estimates of time that it's going to take to get the water out of the bowl are three to six months. You could be sitting there in absolutely untenable conditions, in water that is filled with disease and germs, for months to come, walking through it, slogging through it.

With the looting that's going on and with the deteriorating sanitation conditions, it is a situation where you can't cover the story because you can't venture out from the hotel. It's so dangerous, one, because the water is getting higher, and two, because of the disease factor that is beginning. There's no food, there's no water.

Shreveport hospital in dire need
Posted: 12:36 p.m. ET
CNN's Deborah Feyerick in Shreveport, Louisiana

We had a conversation with one family who had left New Orleans. They are desperately trying to get in touch with their sister. She is a college nurse at the Memorial Medical Hospital on Napoleon Street. The story they told us of what is going on at that hospital is quite dramatic.

According to their sister, looters are trying to get into the hospital. There's no electricity. The nurses, the doctors and their families have virtually locked themselves into the medical center and they don't know when they are going to be able to get out.

The story they were telling us is that the hospital administration was telling the staff there it would be five days until they might be able to be rescued. They are telling us that people in the hospital are dying because there's no electricity.

One nurse walked outside to get a breath of fresh air. She was robbed at gunpoint. There were National Guard that was around the hospital, but apparently we are told they pulled out in order to help with the prisoner uprising that happened yesterday.

And according to the story they are telling the people who are in that hospital simply don't know how they are going to get out. They want their sister to try to meet them in Shreveport. Right now they can't get in touch with her. We tried to call her. We can't get in touch with the hospital either. It's a desperate situation.

Homes flattened in Biloxi
Posted: 12:15 p.m. ET
CNN's Ted Rowlands in Biloxi, Mississippi

Many structures along the Mississippi coast have been literally flattened by Hurricane Katrina.

It is difficult for search and rescue crews to wade through this. This is expanded over miles and miles, including some larger cities like Biloxi and smaller cities and townships.

Vast stretches have been flattened by Hurricane Katrina. The death toll continues to rise here. People have been trickling in against the advice of authorities to see if their homes withstood the hurricane.

Most folks here in Biloxi have come away with very bad news, finding out that their homes have been completely destroyed. There is no electricity and no water. It is a health hazard to have people coming in. The odds of them finding their house in one piece are low. Coming back now does absolutely no good.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/scene.blog/index.html

[strandinthewind]

I'm only going to make this point one more time, I promise. There were people who were unable to evacuate for a variety of reasons, mostly financial.


I agree and those people have a valid excuse if they had some disability or other significant hinderance. I do not think anyone is arguing against that :shrug:

I think what people and certainly I am saying is the vast majority seen on the t.v. apparently are able bodied people - as are the looters :shrug: There is no reason these people could not have gone to the dome or some other shelter. That they did not - out of stupidity, laziness, stubborness, and/or the desire to loot (trust me it happens) - has caused a delay in rescuing the truly helpless - to what end I can only speculate and be horrified by. Those people should be ashamed of themselves.

[michelle2677]

as far as the looting..this is absolutely terrible, but the thing is..even if they MAKE an effort, seriously-what are they going to do with them? They don't even have a jail to put them in I'm sure.

and what do you guys think?? I heard someone call in on CNN today discussing how she does not think New Orleans should even BE rebuilt. Do you think they will? or just cut their losses and relocate everyone?? I'm kinda riding the fence on this. It has so much history and to think of the US without....New Frickin Orleans is crazy, but my goodness....I don't even know where to begin to think of how they are going to rebuild....so I dunno :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I heard from a friend that has family there that some of them are being quarantined.

Actually, they likely will quarrantine mostly the whole city - probably by Friday is the city cannot be drained, which looking less and less probable.

[strandinthewind]

as far as the looting..this is absolutely terrible, but the thing is..even if they MAKE an effort, seriously-what are they going to do with them? They don't even have a jail to put them in I'm sure.

and what do you guys think?? I heard someone call in on CNN today discussing how she does not think New Orleans should even BE rebuilt. Do you think they will? or just cut their losses and relocate everyone?? I'm kinda riding the fence on this. It has so much history and to think of the US without....New Frickin Orleans is crazy, but my goodness....I don't even know where to begin to think of how they are going to rebuild....so I dunno :shrug:


With a proper levee system, it can withstand much more than this. I mean it almost withstood this and it has been standing for hundreds of years :shrug: I mean should they have rebuilt the entire West coast after the last few large quakes. This problem is actually more manageable than the quakes. If those levees had been taller and stronger - as was discussed decades ago to no end - the current situation would not be happening and NOLA would be almost dry by now :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Have you heard anything about the VA in NOLA? At least 150 were there, and I heard the generators had run out of fuel. I hope they've been airlifted out. :distress:


I heard they were evacuated, but that is not from a good source.

[michelle2677]

With a proper levee system, it can withstand much more than this. I mean it almost withstood this and it has been standing for hundreds of years :shrug: I mean should they have rebuilt the entire West coast after the last few large quakes. This problem is actually more manageable than the quakes. If those levees had been taller and stronger - as was discussed decades ago to no end - the current situation would not be happening and NOLA would be almost dry by now :shrug:


o.k...o.k!!!..just asking a question..*L*
but I see your point...I'm not saying tear it down either...just food for thought since that lady brought it up. Because up until then, I didn't even know anyone had considered it. "I" sure hadn't...

[strandinthewind]

o.k...o.k!!!..just asking a question..*L*
but I see your point...I'm not saying tear it down either...just food for thought since that lady brought it up. Because up until then, I didn't even know anyone had considered it. "I" sure hadn't...


I did not mean for that to come across as snarky - :sorry: :sorry: :sorry: :sorry:

I got your point though and it is worth discussing :o I think David think that too, but I could be wrong.

[michelle2677]

I did not mean for that to come across as snarky - :sorry: :sorry: :sorry: :sorry:

I got your point though and it is worth discussing :o I think David think that too, but I could be wrong.


no! it's totally fine!! :) I could be just pms'ing today too..who knows ;)

anyway...I didn't see where david had posted anything about that ...but I havent' read the whole thread either *L* I'm just wondering, if it's gonna take 6 mo's to a year (or MUCH longer) will these people even come back? I mean..they HAVE to have jobs.. Think about it..if this happened to you, and you relocated, got a new job, new home..new EVERYTHING...when they rebuilt..would you pick everything up again and move again?? I mean, you probably would if you knew your family was gonna be there, your neighbors..(well maybe..haha) and all that..but it's not even gonna be the same city. It's just a sad situation :(

[gldstwmn]

I truly believe that apart from 9/11 this is one of the most significant events that has ever hit this country.

Yup. :distress:

[gldstwmn]

I agree and those people have a valid excuse if they had some disability or other significant hinderance. I do not think anyone is arguing against that :shrug:

I think what people and certainly I am saying is the vast majority seen on the t.v. apparently are able bodied people - as are the looters :shrug: There is no reason these people could not have gone to the dome or some other shelter. That they did not - out of stupidity, laziness, stubborness, and/or the desire to loot (trust me it happens) - has caused a delay in rescuing the truly helpless - to what end I can only speculate and be horrified by. Those people should be ashamed of themselves.

What about the people in Mississippi who were never ordered to evacuate?

[GypsySorcerer]

I heard they were evacuated, but that is not from a good source.
I certainly hope so.

[strandinthewind]

What about the people in Mississippi who were never ordered to evacuate?


I am unclear on that. I know much of the Gulf Coast was ordered to evacuate, but did not. In any event, that part of the world is not flooded in any significant way compared to NOLA and the surrounding area. So, the logic behind the delay rescue time is not as applicable, though it certainly there.

[lbelle1214]

as far as the looting..this is absolutely terrible, but the thing is..even if they MAKE an effort, seriously-what are they going to do with them? They don't even have a jail to put them in I'm sure.

and what do you guys think?? I heard someone call in on CNN today discussing how she does not think New Orleans should even BE rebuilt. Do you think they will? or just cut their losses and relocate everyone?? I'm kinda riding the fence on this. It has so much history and to think of the US without....New Frickin Orleans is crazy, but my goodness....I don't even know where to begin to think of how they are going to rebuild....so I dunno :shrug:

They'll put them on the bridge span that's holding the prisioners who were evacuated out also.

They will rebuild New Orleans...it's not just a city, it's a culture...these people are goal-oriented. They want to rebuild....and I believe it will be done! :)

[strandinthewind]

Will they make up their minds already :mad:

I think the inaction is worse than any action they could have taken :shrug:
___________________________________________________________


New Orleans tries to stop breaches
Feds fan out for storm recovery efforts across Gulf region

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The water pouring from Lake Pontchartrain into New Orleans has stopped because the lake's water level is equal that of the water level in the city, according to a chief engineer working on a solution.

The Army Corps of Engineers said Wednesday it is hoping to begin dumping bags weighing as much as 15,000 pounds to stem the flow of water seeping through three levee breaches and flooding New Orleans, said engineer Walter Baumy, who's leading the project. (Map)(See video showing extent of levee breach)

So far, nothing has been dropped "that I know of," he said, adding that none of the city's pumps are working.

More than 1,000 bags are expected to be needed, a spokesman said.

About 80 percent of New Orleans is flooded with water up to 20 feet deep.

The corps has no timetable for sealing the holes in the levees, said Baumy. The bags are going to be filled with sand, gravel or "anything we grab."

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco described the project Wednesday as "an engineering nightmare." (See video of Blanco discussing rescue and recovery efforts -- 3:09)

Meanwhile officials are coordinating with emergency relief agencies to evacuate New Orleans.

Addressing one of the city's vexing problems, the 23,000 evacuees who have been living under deteriorating conditions at the Louisiana Superdome will be transported to the Astrodome in Houston, Texas, officials said Wednesday. (Full story)

New Orleans' Louis Armstrong International Airport, about 10 miles west of downtown in Kenner, did not sustain major damage and has reopened to limited traffic.

Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour have ordered the mobilization of an additional 10,000 National Guard troops to provide security and help with hurricane relief, Pentagon officials said Wednesday.

The troops are expected to arrive in the next two days, with 5,000 troops going to each state, the officials said.

Their chief task will be to help law enforcement restore order; some units will also be involved in hurricane relief, the officials said.

President Bush has declared federal states of emergency in Louisiana, Alabama, Florida and Mississippi. (Full story) (See video about Bush's return to Washington -- 1:47)

Coordinating the federal response plan to Hurricane Katrina will be Michael Brown, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. He is already in the region working with state and local officials.

The plan for the first time provides all federal government departments and agencies with the same playbook to use when responding to major incidents such as terrorist attacks, major industrial accidents, hurricanes, tornadoes or tsunamis.

FEMA has issued a list of organizations for those seeking to assist victims. (How to help)


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.recovery/index.html

[sara1998]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9148873/

Updated: 8:42 p.m. ET Aug. 31, 2005
VIENNA, Austria - From papal prayers to telegrams from China, the world reacted with an outpouring of compassion Wednesday for the victims of Hurricane Katrina in messages tinged by shock that a disaster of this scale could occur in the United States.

Islamic extremists rejoiced in America’s misfortune, giving the storm a military rank and declaring in Internet chatter that “Private” Katrina had joined the global jihad, or holy war. With “God’s help,” they declared, oil prices would hit $100 a barrel this year.

Venezuela’s government, which has had tense relations with Washington, offered humanitarian aid and fuel if requested.

The storm was seen as an equalizer — proof that any country, weak or strong, can be victimized by a natural disaster. Images of flood-ravaged New Orleans earned particular sympathy in central Europe, where dozens died in raging floodwaters only days ago.

“Nature proved that no matter how rich and economically developed you are, you can’t fight it,” says Danut Afasei, a local official in Romania’s Harghita county, where flooding killed 13 people last week.

Mourning for 'European' city
Throughout Europe, concerned citizens lamented the loss of life and the damage caused to New Orleans, often described as one of North America’s most “European” cities.

French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder sent messages of sympathy to President Bush. Chirac, who has famously quarreled with Bush over the Iraq war, addressed this letter, “Dear George.”

Pope Benedict XVI said he was praying for victims of the “tragic” hurricane while China’s President Hu Jintao expressed his “belief that that the American people will definitely overcome the natural disaster and rebuild their beautiful homeland.”

Britain’s Queen Elizabeth II also sent a message to Bush saying she was “deeply shocked and saddened” at the devastation caused by the hurricane and expressing her condolences, “especially to the families of those who have lost their lives, to the injured and to all who have been affected by this terrible disaster.”

The U.S. Embassy in Bern, Switzerland — a capital at the foot of the Alps hit by flooding last week — said calls were rushing in from Swiss individuals and institutions looking for a way to donate to relief efforts.

“We are getting calls from the Swiss public looking to express their condolences, (and) people are also asking for an account number where they can make donations,” said spokesman Daniel Wendell.

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz called President Bush offering condolences to the victims of the disaster.

On Monday, Minister of Petroleum and Mineral Resources Ali Al-Naimi said that Saudi Arabia was prepared to immediately increase its crude oil production to ease the effects of Hurricane Katrina and stabilize world crude prices.

Arguing over aid
The Internet-edition of the Vienna daily Der Standard had recorded 820 postings commenting on a front-page story on the hurricane. One posting asked where money could be donated to the victims, but the question sparked a debate about whether a rich country like the United States needed such aid.

A response argued that hurricane victims who are poor still needed support.

Amid the sympathy, however, there was criticism.

As U.S. military engineers struggled to shore up breached levees, experts in the Netherlands expressed surprise that New Orleans’ flood systems failed to restrain the raging waters.

With half of the country’s population of 16 million living below sea level, the Netherlands prepared for a “perfect storm” soon after floods in 1953 killed 2,000 people. The nation installed massive hydraulic sea walls.

Amid sympathy, criticism
“I don’t want to sound overly critical, but it’s hard to imagine that (the damage caused by Katrina) could happen in a Western country,” said Ted Sluijter, spokesman for the park where the sea walls are exhibited. “It seemed like plans for protection and evacuation weren’t really in place, and once it happened, the coordination was on loose hinges.”

The sympathy was muted in some corners by a sense that the United States reaped what it sowed, since the country is seen as the main contributor to global warming.


Cosmic Log
Storm stirs trans-Atlantic eco-tempest



Joern Ehlers, a spokesman for World Wildlife Fund Germany, said global warming had increased the intensity of hurricanes.

“The Americans have a big impact on the greenhouse effect,” Ehlers said.

But Harlan L. Watson, the U.S. envoy for negotiations on climate change, dismissed talk of a link between global warming and the strength of storms.

“Our scientists are telling us right now that there’s not a linkage,” he said in Geneva. “I’ll rely on their information.”

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[lbelle1214]

My brother left on one of 500 boats going from Lafayette (about 100 West) on an emissary to help with the rescue operations. I am a little terrified for his safety. He is there though and was sobbing at the horror.

Dear God - Show us the way back.

God bless him and all those like him. :angel:

[Dreammms]

i have been watching the news coverage all day. this is so heartbreaking.

strand your brother is in my thoughts.

[strandinthewind]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9148873/

Updated: 8:42 p.m. ET Aug. 31, 2005
VIENNA, Austria - From papal prayers to telegrams from China, the world reacted with an outpouring of compassion Wednesday for the victims of Hurricane Katrina in messages tinged by shock that a disaster of this scale could occur in the United States.

Islamic extremists rejoiced in America’s misfortune, giving the storm a military rank and declaring in Internet chatter that “Private” Katrina had joined the global jihad, or holy war. With “God’s help,” they declared, oil prices would hit $100 a barrel this year.

Venezuela’s government, which has had tense relations with Washington, offered humanitarian aid and fuel if requested.

The storm was seen as an equalizer — proof that any country, weak or strong, can be victimized by a natural disaster. Images of flood-ravaged New Orleans earned particular sympathy in central Europe, where dozens died in raging floodwaters only days ago.

“Nature proved that no matter how rich and economically developed you are, you can’t fight it,” says Danut Afasei, a local official in Romania’s Harghita county, where flooding killed 13 people last week.

Mourning for 'European' city
Throughout Europe, concerned citizens lamented the loss of life and the damage caused to New Orleans, often described as one of North America’s most “European” cities.

French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder sent messages of sympathy to President Bush. Chirac, who has famously quarreled with Bush over the Iraq war, addressed this letter, “Dear George.”

Pope Benedict XVI said he was praying for victims of the “tragic” hurricane while China’s President Hu Jintao expressed his “belief that that the American people will definitely overcome the natural disaster and rebuild their beautiful homeland.”

Britain’s Queen Elizabeth II also sent a message to Bush saying she was “deeply shocked and saddened” at the devastation caused by the hurricane and expressing her condolences, “especially to the families of those who have lost their lives, to the injured and to all who have been affected by this terrible disaster.”

The U.S. Embassy in Bern, Switzerland — a capital at the foot of the Alps hit by flooding last week — said calls were rushing in from Swiss individuals and institutions looking for a way to donate to relief efforts.

“We are getting calls from the Swiss public looking to express their condolences, (and) people are also asking for an account number where they can make donations,” said spokesman Daniel Wendell.

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz called President Bush offering condolences to the victims of the disaster.

On Monday, Minister of Petroleum and Mineral Resources Ali Al-Naimi said that Saudi Arabia was prepared to immediately increase its crude oil production to ease the effects of Hurricane Katrina and stabilize world crude prices.

Arguing over aid
The Internet-edition of the Vienna daily Der Standard had recorded 820 postings commenting on a front-page story on the hurricane. One posting asked where money could be donated to the victims, but the question sparked a debate about whether a rich country like the United States needed such aid.

A response argued that hurricane victims who are poor still needed support.

Amid the sympathy, however, there was criticism.

As U.S. military engineers struggled to shore up breached levees, experts in the Netherlands expressed surprise that New Orleans’ flood systems failed to restrain the raging waters.

With half of the country’s population of 16 million living below sea level, the Netherlands prepared for a “perfect storm” soon after floods in 1953 killed 2,000 people. The nation installed massive hydraulic sea walls.

Amid sympathy, criticism
“I don’t want to sound overly critical, but it’s hard to imagine that (the damage caused by Katrina) could happen in a Western country,” said Ted Sluijter, spokesman for the park where the sea walls are exhibited. “It seemed like plans for protection and evacuation weren’t really in place, and once it happened, the coordination was on loose hinges.”

The sympathy was muted in some corners by a sense that the United States reaped what it sowed, since the country is seen as the main contributor to global warming.


Cosmic Log
Storm stirs trans-Atlantic eco-tempest



Joern Ehlers, a spokesman for World Wildlife Fund Germany, said global warming had increased the intensity of hurricanes.

“The Americans have a big impact on the greenhouse effect,” Ehlers said.

But Harlan L. Watson, the U.S. envoy for negotiations on climate change, dismissed talk of a link between global warming and the strength of storms.

“Our scientists are telling us right now that there’s not a linkage,” he said in Geneva. “I’ll rely on their information.”

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Thanks darlin' - I am glad I was wrong :nod:

[strandinthewind]

i have been watching the news coverage all day. this is so heartbreaking.

strand your brother is in my thoughts.

Thanks!!!!! (lbelle1214 too)

He is back safe - he was also able to determine that his house is still standing and with little damage.

[sara1998]

Thanks darlin' - I am glad I was wrong :nod:
I wasn't tryin' to prove you that way!!! :)

I'll be praying for your brother in all of this. I'm sure he'll be physically fine, however, he may be a different man when he gets home. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

I wasn't tryin' to prove you that way!!! :)

I'll be praying for your brother in all of this. I'm sure he'll be physically fine, however, he may be a different man when he gets home. :distress:


His main comment was the horrific, putrid smell - and I'll leave it at that.

[strandinthewind]

LOOORD CHILD - Did anyone see Nancy Grace this evening - she was like "Anderson - do you see what the Fed's take out of your paycheck every month - WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY IN ALL THIS - THEY SHOULD BE THERE" or something like that :eek:

To be fair - the supplies are on the way and many have been distributed. Apparantly, not enough.

Also, I believe Nancy was choking up while commenting off camera and Anderson looked as if he had been crying as well. Can't say I blame them.

[SuzeQuze]

LOOORD CHILD - Did anyone see Nancy Grace this evening - she was like "Anderson - do you see what the Fed's take out of your paycheck every month - WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY IN ALL THIS - THEY SHOULD BE THERE" or something like that :eek:

To be fair - the supplies are on the way and many have been distributed. Apparantly, not enough.

Also, I believe Nancy was choking up while commenting off camera and Anderson looked as if he had been crying as well. Can't say I blame them.

Its horrific. For the city to have been left so vulnerable to a hurricane is inexcusable, IMO. Talk is cheap, the work should have been done a long time ago. The technology is there, in use in the Netherlands. This is very very sad. I'm sure there are many officials having sleepless nights over their inaction on this. I know it is really no one's fault it just burns me that it could have been prevented. I'm so so sad for the loss of life and homes.

[strandinthewind]

. . . I know it is really no one's fault it just burns me that it could have been prevented. I'm so so sad for the loss of life and homes.

BS - I would LOVE to know how many politicians and their friends through brother in law deals have made millions off of this over the years by submitting plan after plan after plan when they damn well knew they would never be executed. Though some things have been done, apparently it was not enough despite all the planning and BS talk.

[SuzeQuze]

BS - I would LOVE to know how many politicians and their friends through brother in law deals have made millions off of this over the years by submitting plan after plan after plan when they damn well knew they would never be executed. Though some things have been done, apparently it was not enough despite all the planning and BS talk.

Gross. I meant no one in particular was responsible. Do you think these people even have a conscience or am I overestimating them? Beaurocracy at work, what a beauty. :distress: You must be so tormented. I am and I am not from there.

[strandinthewind]

Gross. I meant no one in particular was responsible. Do you think these people even have a conscience or am I overestimating them? Beaurocracy at work, what a beauty. :distress: You must be so tormented. I am and I am not from there.

I am sickened. I truly love that city. I was there twice in August, which was a strech for me. I am so glad I did it though as I will not get back there for a long time now and it will not be the same when I do.

[David]

Its horrific. For the city to have been left so vulnerable to a hurricane is inexcusable, IMO.No matter how wonderful we think we are, no matter how tall we build our skyscrapers, no matter how fast our jet planes fly, no matter how many hearts we transplant or sheep we clone or tumors we treat. . . . Nature smashes us under her boot heel.

But back to Nawlins. Another factor the politicos & the scientists are going to consider (if they haven't already done so) is the continuing compaction of the delta sediments on which the city is built. So the city (which is already 6 feet below sea level) will continue to go down in elevation while the sea level stays where it is or rises. Those levees they want to rebuild are going to have to be pretty damn tall.

One scientist, Roy Dokka, got some funding from NOAA for a study. He says, "Subsidence in the Gulf Coast region is largely due to the natural earth process of tectonic subsidence, which cannot be controlled by mankind, but if we know about it, we can plan around its effects."

The Houston Geological Society is hosting a conference: "Coastal Subsidence, Sea Level & the Future of the Gulf Coast" Nov. 3, 4 & 5, 2005, from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. somewhere in Houston. Perfect timing! Any of you guys in the Houston area should go -- at least to some of the talks or panels. (Three full days of geologists gabbing is way too much for anyone.)

Of course, Stevie was wrong. Things DO change, especially geologically. At one point, Cape Girardeau, Missouri, WAS the "Gulf Coast."

[gldstwmn]

I am unclear on that. I know much of the Gulf Coast was ordered to evacuate, but did not. In any event, that part of the world is not flooded in any significant way compared to NOLA and the surrounding area. So, the logic behind the delay rescue time is not as applicable, though it certainly there.

Of course, I am here to help: :)
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001052870

Biloxi Newspaper Slams Relief Effort, Begs for Help

By Greg Mitchell

Published: August 31, 2005 10:15 PM ET

NEW YORK The Sun Herald of Biloxi, Miss., in an editorial today, criticized the relief effort in its ravaged area so far, and told officials and the nation-at-large: "South Mississippi needs your help."

It angrily revealed: "While the flow of information is frustratingly difficult, our reporters have yet to find evidence of a coordinated approach to relieve pain and hunger or to secure property and maintain order. People are hurting and people are being vandalized.

"Yet where is the National Guard, why hasn't every able-bodied member of the armed forces in South Mississippi been pressed into service?"

Pointedly, it declared that earlier today, "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics."

It added: "We need the president to back up his declaration of a disaster with a declaration of every man and woman under his command will do whatever is necessary to deal with that disaster."

The newspaper has managed to publish two print editions this week as well as keep its Web site updated.

Here is the text of the editorial.

*

The coastal communities of South Mississippi are desperately in need of an unprecedented relief effort.
We understand that New Orleans also was devastated by Hurricane Katrina, but surely this nation has the resources to rescue both that metropolitan and ours.

Whatever plans that were in place to deal with such a natural disaster have proven inadequate. Perhaps destruction on this scale could not have been adequately prepared for.

But now that it has taken place, no effort should be spared to mitigate the hurricane's impact.

The essentials -- ice, gasoline, medicine -- simply are not getting here fast enough.

We are not calling on the nation and the state to make life more comfortable in South Mississippi, we are calling on the nation and the state to make life here possible.

We would bolster our argument with the number of Katrina casualties confirmed thus far, but if there is such a confirmed number, no one is releasing it to the public. This lack of faith in the publics' ability to handle the truth is not sparing anyone's feelings, it is instead fueling terrifying rumors.

While the flow of information is frustratingly difficult, our reporters have yet to find evidence of a coordinated approach to relieve pain and hunger or to secure property and maintain order.

People are hurting and people are being vandalized.

Yet where is the National Guard, why hasn't every able-bodied member of the armed forces in South Mississippi been pressed into service?

On Wednesday reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics.

Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!

When asked why these young men were not being used to help in the recovery effort, our reporters were told that it would be pointless to send military personnel down to the beach to pick up debris.

Litter is the least of our problems. We need the president to back up his declaration of a disaster with a declaration of every man and woman under his command will do whatever is necessary to deal with that disaster.

We need the governor to provide whatever assistance is at his command.

We certainly need our own county and city officials to come together and identify the most pressing needs of their constituents and then allocate resources to meet those needs. We appreciate the stress that theses elected and appointed officials have been under since the weekend but they must do a better job restoring public confidence in their ability to meet this challenge.

[strandinthewind]

But, that is not W - W has ordered all available means to be used :shrug: In essence, this is FEMA not utilizing all sources despite what W ordered.

Also - what does that have to do with the order to evacuate and the people ignoring it or it not be given - which is what I thought we were talking about?

[gldstwmn]

But, that is not W - W has ordered all available means to be used :shrug: In essence, this is FEMA not utilizing all sources despite what W ordered.

Also - what does that have to do with the order to evacuate and the people ignoring it or it not be given - which is what I thought we were talking about?

You said you were unclear. I was trying for clarity. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/bt_weather_katrina_poverty_dc

Anger rises among Mississippi's poor after Katrina

BILOXI, Mississippi (Reuters) - For about a decade this gambling town on Mississippi's Gulf Coast has been the place to be in the state if you were poor, down on your luck and looking for work.

That changed on Monday when Hurricane Katrina came ashore, leveling hundreds if not thousands of houses, stores and commercial buildings and killing scores of residents.

The legalization of gambling in Biloxi created an economic boom in the early 1990s and the city developed a reputation as a place where a person could get a decent-paying job in the casino or hospitality business.

But not everyone prospered. In the devastated streets and atop the rubble piles where their homes stood before Katrina blew through, a bitter refrain is increasingly heard. Poor and low-income residents complain that they have borne the brunt of the hurricane's wrath.

"Many people didn't have the financial means to get out," said Alan LeBreton, 41, an apartment superintendent who lived on Biloxi's seaside road, now in ruins. "That's a crime and people are angry about it."

Many of the town's well-off heeded authorities' warnings to flee north, joining thousands of others who traveled from the Gulf Coast into northern Mississippi and Alabama, Georgia and other nearby states.

Hotels along the interstates and other main roads were packed with these temporary refugees. Gas stations and convenience stores -- at least those that were open -- sold out of water, ice and other supplies within hours.

But others could not afford to join them, either because they didn't own a car or couldn't raise funds for even the cheapest motel.

"No way we could do that," said Willie Rhetta, a bus driver, who remained in his home to await Katrina.

Resentment at being left behind in the path of one of the fiercest hurricanes on record may have contributed to some of the looting that occurred in Biloxi and other coastal communities.

A number of private residences, including some in upscale neighborhoods, were targeted, residents said.

Class divisions, which often fall along racial lines in this once-segregated southern state, are not new to Mississippi. It traditionally is one of the poorest states in the United States.

In 2004, Mississippi had the second lowest median household income and the highest percentage of people -- 21.6 percent -- living in poverty, according to a report released this week by the U.S. Census Bureau

[strandinthewind]

You said

What about the people in Mississippi who were never ordered to evacuate?.

I replied

I am unclear on that. I know much of the Gulf Coast was ordered to evacuate, but did not. In any event, that part of the world is not flooded in any significant way compared to NOLA and the surrounding area. So, the logic behind the delay rescue time is not as applicable, though it certainly there.

Then you posted an article about how the Air Force was playing basketball, which seemingly has nothing to do with the argument that the able bodied people who refused to evacuate were now hindering help to those who needed it and could not evacuate. So, I do not understand the meaning behind the posting of that article, unless it was to address the earlier argument that W is a dilitante, etc. To which I reply, W has done what he could and is sending aid, ships full of supplies, ordering the NG to go to the effected areas, FEMA is acting haste in that thousands have been evacuated in NOLA, etc.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

i have been watching the news coverage all day. this is so heartbreaking.

strand your brother is in my thoughts.

This is crazy...this is larger than 911 in my opinion..people are starving, having to steal food. The whole is very catostropic. The hurricane has caused a state of emergency in GA with some places today marking up gas to 6 bucks a gallon! I talked to my mom and she told me that she went to some stations today and saw 5.00 a gallon, and some had signs that said "sorry, out of gas"

Chris

[strandinthewind]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/bt_weather_katrina_poverty_dc

Anger rises among Mississippi's poor after Katrina

BILOXI, Mississippi (Reuters) - For about a decade this gambling town on Mississippi's Gulf Coast has been the place to be in the state if you were poor, down on your luck and looking for work.

That changed on Monday when Hurricane Katrina came ashore, leveling hundreds if not thousands of houses, stores and commercial buildings and killing scores of residents.

The legalization of gambling in Biloxi created an economic boom in the early 1990s and the city developed a reputation as a place where a person could get a decent-paying job in the casino or hospitality business.

But not everyone prospered. In the devastated streets and atop the rubble piles where their homes stood before Katrina blew through, a bitter refrain is increasingly heard. Poor and low-income residents complain that they have borne the brunt of the hurricane's wrath.

"Many people didn't have the financial means to get out," said Alan LeBreton, 41, an apartment superintendent who lived on Biloxi's seaside road, now in ruins. "That's a crime and people are angry about it."

Many of the town's well-off heeded authorities' warnings to flee north, joining thousands of others who traveled from the Gulf Coast into northern Mississippi and Alabama, Georgia and other nearby states.

Hotels along the interstates and other main roads were packed with these temporary refugees. Gas stations and convenience stores -- at least those that were open -- sold out of water, ice and other supplies within hours.

But others could not afford to join them, either because they didn't own a car or couldn't raise funds for even the cheapest motel.

"No way we could do that," said Willie Rhetta, a bus driver, who remained in his home to await Katrina.

Resentment at being left behind in the path of one of the fiercest hurricanes on record may have contributed to some of the looting that occurred in Biloxi and other coastal communities.

A number of private residences, including some in upscale neighborhoods, were targeted, residents said.

Class divisions, which often fall along racial lines in this once-segregated southern state, are not new to Mississippi. It traditionally is one of the poorest states in the United States.

In 2004, Mississippi had the second lowest median household income and the highest percentage of people -- 21.6 percent -- living in poverty, according to a report released this week by the U.S. Census Bureau

Yes, the situation in Mississippi was tragic. However, I am talking about the people in NOLA who could have gotten on a bus and gone to the dome but did not because they were foolish, stubborn, or intended to loot afterward.

[gldstwmn]

...this is larger than 911 in my opinion..people are starving, having to steal food.
Chris

I agree Chris. :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Companies pitch in
Major companies -- including Home Depot and Ford -- pledge millions to hurricane relief efforts.
August 31, 2005: 7:10 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Corporations are contributing millions of dollars in relief aid to help cope with the destruction left by Hurricane Katrina. The following is a list of companies that have taken steps to provide aid to those in need of funds, food and medicine following Monday's storm:

Abbott, a pharmaceutical and medical products company, has pledged to contribute $4 million, $2 million in cash donations and an initial $2 million in nutritional and medical products to help victims of Hurricane Katrina. Abbott's initial contributions include cases of pediatric and adult nutritional products such as Similac infant formula, PediaSure and Pedialyte nutritional drinks and Ensure and ZonePerfect bars.

Amerada Hess said it would contribute $1 million to the American Red Cross for its disaster relief efforts in responding to Hurricane Katrina. In addition, the company will match individual employee donations to the Red Cross.

American Airlines flew 85,000 pounds of bottled water and nonperishable food items donated by the airline to New Orleans. American also picked up some of its own employees, other airlines' employees and stranded travelers and flew them to Dallas/Fort Worth.

Anheuser-Busch said it shipped 12,600 cases of drinking water for the Red Cross to distribute to victims in affected areas of Louisiana.

Bayer Corp. has committed $2 million in cash and product donations and will match employee donations to the Red Cross.

BI-LO/Bruno's supermarkets will match up to $25,000 in employee and customer donations to the American Red Cross.

Citigroup will donate $1 million to the American Red Cross and will match employee donations up to $1 million.

Comcast Corporation has committed to donating $10 million worth of advertising time for Public Service Announcements, in addition to $50,000 in cash to the American Red Cross. Comcast will also feature 10 hours of ON DEMAND programming in September, dedicated to airing American Red Cross updates, benefit concerts and information on what customers can do to help in the relief efforts.

Exxon Mobil will donate $2 million to the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund. It is also donating fuel to government responders.

Fannie Mae has mortgage relief provisions in place for borrowers in Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Florida and other states facing hardships as a result of widespread damage caused by Hurricane Katrina.

Flowserve will donate $50,000 and match up to $50,000 in employee donations to the Red Cross.

Food Lion said it would accept customer donations to the Red Cross and will send a truckload of bottled water to the area.

Ford Motor Credit Company is offering customers affected by Hurricane Katrina the opportunity to defer up to two vehicle payments.

Freddie Mac has extended its mortgage relief policies for borrowers affected by Hurricane Katrina in locations declared major disaster areas by President Bush.

General Motors is contributing $400,000 to the American Red Cross and matching employee donations up to $250,000. GM will also donate 25 vehicles for use by the American Red Cross.

Harrah's Entertainment will establish an Employee Recovery Fund of $1 million and will provide Biloxi, Gulfport and New Orleans casino employees with their regularly scheduled base pay for up to 90 days.

Home Depot will donate $1.5 million to various relief organizations, including the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army. The home improvement retailer will set up six temporary support centers to provide reconstruction materials.

JPMorgan Chase will donate $1 million to the American Red Cross and will match employee donations up to $1 million.

Lowe's Companies will match in-store customer contributions up to $1 million. The company said it has truckloads of emergency supplies staged and ready for relief efforts along the Gulf Coast. Lowe's also says its more than 1,125 stores nationwide will serve as official cash-donation sites to benefit the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund.

Nissan North America will donate $500,000 to the Red Cross and provide 50 full-size trucks to the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency.

Northwest Airlines will deliver hurricane relief supplies, including water, hand towels and batteries.

Office Depot pledged to contribute $1 million to the American Red Cross.

Pepsi Americas will contribute $500,000 in financial aid and water.

Pfizer will donate $1 million for rebuilding hospital and healthcare centers, $1 million for relief organizations including the American Red Cross, Salvation Army and the United Way of America and medicines, consumer and animal health products

Southwest Airlines is bringing supplies such as ice, bottled water, flashlights and bug spray. The airline also picked up about 20 to 40 evacuees.

Target announced a $1.5 million donation to the American Red Cross. The company said in a statement that it was also coordinating the distribution of essential relief products requested by the Red Cross, including water, ice, energy bars and bug spray.

Turner Broadcasting (parent of CNN) will donate $250,000 and match employee contributions.

Thrivent Financial for Lutherans has pledged $1 million to Lutheran relief agencies and will match member contributions.

United Airlines will give 500 frequent flier miles to anyone who donates $50 or more to the Red Cross, AmeriCares or Operation USA. The airline is also planning a relief flight with food and supplies.

Wal-Mart Stores says it will donate $1 million to the Salvation Army for relief assistance such as meals for victims and emergency and rescue personnel.

Washington Mutual will donate $100,000 to the American Red Cross and will match employee donations.

Wachovia will donate $250,000 to the American Red cross and match employee donations. Wachovia delivered food, water and generators to Mobile and Pascagoula and will continue to send supplies.

Winn-Dixie announced a program called "Neighbors Helping Neighbors," in which people can make donations in its Southeast stores for Hurricane Katrina victims.


Find this article at:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/fortune500/firms_hurricane/index.htm

[gldstwmn]

Yes, the situation in Mississippi was tragic. However, I am talking about the people in NOLA who could have gotten on a bus and gone to the dome but did not because they were foolish, stubborn, or intended to loot afterward.

And earlier I asked you a question about Mississippi to which you replied you were unclear.
Take 3 aspirin and read it in the morning. :shrug: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

This is crazy...this is larger than 911 in my opinion..people are starving, having to steal food. The whole is very catostropic. The hurricane has caused a state of emergency in GA with some places today marking up gas to 6 bucks a gallon! I talked to my mom and she told me that she went to some stations today and saw 5.00 a gallon, and some had signs that said "sorry, out of gas"

Chris

I agree - stealing food is a horrid instance and is justifiable, esp. considering that food will likely go bad if this indeed takes two months to correct. However 45 VCR's, a rack of suits, the entire gun supply of WalMart, jewelry, cash, private possessions from homes not your's is not - it is a crime commited in an opportunistic fashion. I know you were not talking about that, but I feel it is important to acknowledge that there are different types of looters in this case. In fact, it is probably safe to assume as Nancy Grace did this evening that some people stayed behind to protect their possessions, which is insane, but when that store is all you have - how is that different from these people stealing to survive, esp. when the shelters had food and water if they had just gone to them :shrug:

Also, the gas lines this evening were like ten cars deep at each pump and at more than one station. Scary indeed.

[gldstwmn]

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/nation/12528135.htm
By SETH BORENSTEIN

Knight Ridder Newspapers


WASHINGTON - The federal government so far has bungled the job of quickly helping the multitudes of hungry, thirsty and desperate victims of Hurricane Katrina, former top federal, state and local disaster chiefs said Wednesday.

The experts, including a former Bush administration disaster response manager, told Knight Ridder that the government wasn't prepared, scrimped on storm spending and shifted its attention from dealing with natural disasters to fighting the global war on terrorism.

The disaster preparedness agency at the center of the relief effort is the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which was enveloped by the new Department of Homeland Security with a new mission aimed at responding to the attacks of al-Qaida.

"What you're seeing is revealing weaknesses in the state, local and federal levels," said Eric Tolbert, who until February was FEMA's disaster response chief. "All three levels have been weakened. They've been weakened by diversion into terrorism."

In interviews on Wednesday, several men and women who've led relief efforts for dozens of killer hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes over the years chastised current disaster leaders for forgetting the simple Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared.

Bush administration officials said they're proud of their efforts. Their first efforts emphasized rooftop rescues over providing food and water for already safe victims.

"We are extremely pleased with the response of every element of the federal government (and) all of our federal partners have made to this terrible tragedy," Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff said during a news conference Wednesday in Washington.

The agency has more than 1,700 truckloads of water, meals, tents, generators and other supplies ready to go in, Chertoff said. Federal health officials have started setting up at least 40 medical shelters. The Coast Guard reports rescuing more than 1,200 people.

But residents, especially in Biloxi, Miss., said they aren't seeing the promised help, and Knight Ridder reporters along the Gulf Coast said they saw little visible federal relief efforts, other than search-and-rescue teams. Some help started arriving Wednesday by the truckloads, but not everywhere.

"We're not getting any help yet," said Biloxi Fire Department Battalion Chief Joe Boney. "We need water. We need ice. I've been told it's coming, but we've got people in shelters who haven't had a drink since the storm."

The slow response to Katrina and poor federal leadership is a replay of 1992's mishandling of Hurricane Andrew, said former FEMA chief of staff Jane Bullock, a 22-year veteran of the agency.

Bullock blamed inexperienced federal leadership. She noted that Chertoff and FEMA Director Michael Brown had no disaster experience before they were appointed to their jobs.

The slowness is all too familiar to Kate Hale. As Miami's disaster chief during Hurricane Andrew, Hale asked: "Where the hell's the cavalry?"

"I'm looking at people who are begging for ice and water and (a) presence," Hale said Wednesday. "I'm seeing the same sort of thing that horrified us after Hurricane Andrew. ... I realize they've got a huge job. Nobody understands better than I do what they're trying to respond to, but ..."

Budget cuts haven't made disaster preparedness any easier.

Last year, FEMA spent $250,000 to conduct an eight-day hurricane drill for a mock killer storm hitting New Orleans. Some 250 emergency officials attended. Many of the scenarios now playing out, including a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, were discussed in that drill for a fictional storm named Pam.

This year, the group was to design a plan to fix such unresolved problems as evacuating sick and injured people from the Superdome and housing tens of thousands of stranded citizens.

Funding for that planning was cut, said Tolbert, the former FEMA disaster response director.

"A lot of good was done, but it just wasn't finished," said Tolbert, who was the disaster chief for the state of North Carolina. "I don't know if it would have saved more lives. It would have made the response faster. You might say it would have saved lives."

FEMA wasn't alone in cutting hurricane spending in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

Federal flood control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year.

Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business magazine reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army Corps of Engineers were severe.

In 2004, the Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that had protected New Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune reported.

"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay," Jefferson Parish emergency management chief Walter Maestri told the newspaper. "Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

The Army Corps' New Orleans office, facing a $71 million cut, also eliminated funds to pay for a study on how to protect the Crescent City from a Category 5 storm, New Orleans City Business reported in June.

Being prepared for a disaster is basic emergency management, disaster experts say.

For example, in the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby, said James Lee Witt, who was FEMA director under President Clinton.

Federal officials said a hospital ship would leave from Baltimore on Friday.

"These things need to be planned and prepared for; it just doesn't look like it was," said Witt, a former Arkansas disaster chief who won bipartisan praise on Capitol Hill during his tenure.

FEMA said some of its response teams were prepared.

The agency had 18 search-and-rescue teams and 39 disaster medical teams positioned outside storm areas and moved them in when the hurricane died down.

Nonetheless, victims of this week's hurricane should have gotten more, said John Copenhaver, a former southeastern regional FEMA director.

"I would have difficulty explaining why there has not been a visible presence of ice, water, tarps - the kind of stuff that typically get delivered to hurricane areas," Copenhaver said.

A FEMA spokesman, James McIntyre, blamed the devastation in the region for slowing down relief efforts.

Roads were washed out and relief trucks were stopped by state police trying to keep people out of hazardous areas, he said.

That explanation didn't satisfy Joe Myers, Florida's former emergency management chief.

"I would think that yesterday they could have flown in," said Myers. "Everyone was flying in. Put it this way, FOX and CNN are there. If they can get there ..."

FEMA moved quickly with its search-and-rescue teams, which took precedence over delivering water and ice, McIntyre said.

"We're trying to save lives," McIntyre said. "The rescue teams are FEMA people. The medical assistance are FEMA people. Right now, getting people off roofs and keeping people from drowning are a priority."

Further complicating the relief effort in Louisiana is scandal within the state agency. Recently, three top officials of Louisiana's emergency management office were indicted in an investigation into the misuse of hurricane funds from last year's Ivan.

None of this matters to residents of the Gulf Coast.

"We're lost," said Steve Loper of Pascagoula, Miss. "We have no direction, no leadership. People are in bad trouble."

[strandinthewind]

And earlier I asked you a question about Mississippi to which you replied you were unclear.
Take 3 aspirin and read it in the morning. :shrug: :laugh:

Right, but that was about the ordered evacuation of Mississippi and what it entailed. Please quote the post that that article was responding to because I do not see it, though I enjoyed the article.