Police: Man shot 'not connected' to bombings

[gldstwmn]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.html

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Police say the man they shot dead at a London Underground station "was not connected" with this week's attempted bombings on the city's transit system.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the police statement said Saturday.

During a news conference following Friday's shooting, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said "this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation."

The man -- whose identity has not been released -- on Friday emerged from a south London apartment building that had been under surveillance as part of the investigation into the attempted bombings Thursday.

Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.

He challenged police and refused to obey orders, before he was shot and killed Friday morning, Blair said Friday.

Meanwhile, police said Saturday that a second suspect had been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings.

The man was arrested in Stockwell on Friday night by anti-terrorism officers in connection with the failed attacks, police said.

The first arrest came Friday in the same neighborhood.

Police said the two detained men, who have not been identified, were to be questioned Saturday.

The arrests came after police released images of four men caught on closed-circuit television at the incident sites around the time the attacks were attempted.

Friday's shooting is a rarity in London, where police generally are not armed except for special response units.

The latest attacks came two weeks to the day 52 people were killed in four bombings targeting the city's mass transit.

As in the July 7 attacks, three subway trains and a double-decker bus were attacked, but in Thursday's case, the four homemade bombs stuffed in backpacks only "partially detonated," said Assistant Police Commissioner Andy Hayman. He noted that it was too early to determine how they went off.

One person was wounded.
Hayman said police searched three locations Friday, one of which was in West London. Scotland Yard identified the area further saying, "in West Kilburn, W9." Police cordoned off part of Harrow Road in that area.

It is not clear if one of the three locations mentioned includes the place of the arrest.

[strandinthewind]

That is awful, but I think the police really thought he was part of the bombing and it was a tragic mistake. Maybe when and if more details are available it will be easier to see how they made such an awful mistake and, hopefully, prevent it from happening again.

[Hawkeye]

That Sucks :( :( :( why couldnt they shoot him with some kind of tranquilizer or something. This is quite irresponsible by the british police.

[strandinthewind]

That Sucks :( :( :( why couldnt they shoot him with some kind of tranquilizer or something. This is quite irresponsible by the british police.


I know - I was wondering the same thing. But, from what I read, they apparently thought he was getting onto a train with explosives and thus the situation was exigent.

[GateandGarden]

That Sucks :( :( :( why couldnt they shoot him with some kind of tranquilizer or something. This is quite irresponsible by the british police.Yeah, why don't they use tranquilizer guns more often, since things like this can happen? If someone's being uncooperative, that could make the person submissive, and he or she can be brought into custody. I don't get it. I know you need some type of gun as a police officer, but I'm not sure why a stun gun or tranquilizer or something like that wouldn't do the trick.

[GateandGarden]

I know - I was wondering the same thing. But, from what I read, they apparently thought he was getting onto a train with explosives and thus the situation was exigent.There isn't another type of gun that would have stopped him just as quickly?

[strandinthewind]

There isn't another type of gun that would have stopped him just as quickly?

I do not know. Maybe they did not expect him to try and get on a train and thus did not plan to shoot him - most articles indicate they were just shadowing him. The whole thing is just awful though.

[tuigirl]

they were saying on the news today, that normally, until 7/7 that is, British police had always had the "shoot to disable " policy ie shoot in the chest to bring a man down but not actually kill. They were saying now that in some cases it's a "shoot to kill" method ie in the head, because if they shot a would be bomber in the chest, then he/she would automatically then explode with worse consequences....perhaps they had to undertake this snap decision, on that assumption in this case.
And why didn't that stupid man do what he was told esp if he had nothing to hide, I know I sure would have if I had a gun pointed at me!

[GateandGarden]

they were saying on the news today, that normally, until 7/7 that is, British police had always had the "shoot to disable " policy ie shoot in the chest to bring a man down but not actually kill. They were saying now that in some cases it's a "shoot to kill" method ie in the head, because if they shot a would be bomber in the chest, then he/she would automatically then explode with worse consequences....perhaps they had to undertake this snap decision, on that assumption in this case.
And why didn't that stupid man do what he was told esp if he had nothing to hide, I know I sure would have if I had a gun pointed at me!They know how to shoot people in the chest and avoid killing them every time? :confused:

[strandinthewind]

They know how to shoot people in the chest and avoid killing them every time? :confused:

I think it was the position of the guy, the timing of the moment, and the difficulty of the position of the train - from what I understand, they were surprised when he went to get on the train and, again, they thought he had a bomb of some sort. Thus, I think this was unavoidable given what they thought he was up to. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the guy did not stop when they told him to. That suggests he was up to no good, but it could be something else like he spoke no English, etc.

[GateandGarden]

I think it was the position of the guy, the timing of the moment, and the difficulty of the position of the train - from what I understand, they were surprised when he went to get on the train and, again, they thought he had a bomb of some sort. Thus, I think this was unavoidable given what they thought he was up to. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the guy did not stop when they told him to. That suggests he was up to no good, but it could be something else like he spoke no English, etc.I thought she was saying that shooting people in the chest is what they normally do if the person resists arrest.

[Serrart]

He was Brazilian, but I don't know if he spoke English or not... It was a terrible senseless mistake but you also have to understand there's a sense of incumbent new tragedy in Europe right now. Intelligence Reports say it's not over and some Countries are more at risk right now. So I guess the nerves are pretty much shaken.

Romy

[bretonbanquet]

What that report doesn't make clear is that the train was full of people at the time, and they saw the guy get shot four or five times in the head. People here aren't even used to police carrying guns, let alone blowing someone away on a train in full view. You just don't expect it to happen while you're travelling to work in the morning. I use that tube line a lot and I don't know how I would have dealt with seeing someone get offed like that while I'm standing there minding my own business.

Another point is that the police were plain-clothed, so onlookers were not immediately aware that they were police. My hunch is that they were not ordinary police, or even SO19 (the armed section of the police who normally carry rifles not pistols) - maybe they were SAS, and those guys have no compunction about killing anyone at any time.

[madformac]

That Sucks :( :( :( why couldnt they shoot him with some kind of tranquilizer or something. This is quite irresponsible by the british police.


Really?

Well, I'm going to have a rant now... I don't have them often and usually I tend to keep the peace around here but I'm sick of hearing about criticism of our Police..

First you have a city on high alert at a time when terrorists are likely to strike at any time. Secondly, you have a suspect, followed from a house that has been under surveilance for some time by MI5 and Special Branch and linked with the terrorists in question, thirdly you have a suspect that leaves the property, under surveilance, he heads to the tube and is then followed inside. When it looks like he is to board a train it is felt necessary for the Police to reveal themselves to him... They shout "Halt, armed Police!" and what does he do???? He runs! Runs towards the tube train followed by up to 20 armed officers.. Not even a f**king moron would do that in such circumstances, in such a position... The only reason you run is if you have something to hide or you are going to do something very wrong.. He runs to the doors of the train, trips inside, grabs a pole at which point he is dropped to the ground by a team of very brave officers, confronted with somebody possibly wearing an explosive vest that would kill them all and he is held down and shot in the head five times.. Now you may argue that five times is too many but faced with a possible explosion and the deaths of innocent people it is justifiable force. In a situation with possible panic and hysteria they did exactly as they were trained to do, confront the threat at close range and execute in the head to avoid the possibility of detonation or collateral damage (such an American term, however, it is the correct one) ..

UK Police are noted for not carrying sidearms, and when they do it is virtually unheard of for them to use such weapons.. However, this country and this city is on terrorist alert and if somebody resists and runs when confronted, quite obviously, by an armed response unit, then they will end up dead and rightly so....

And it seems as usual, the cries of wrong doing come from a country with very little history of terrorism.. Before Oklahoma and 9/11 the United States were somewhat naive, indeed, the majority of funding for the IRA terrorist campaign during the 1970's and 80's especially came from the USA. Ah yes, the Irish Republican Army. It has been the norm for more than 30 years for ordinary people walking the streets of London, Birmingham, Manchester, Belfast etc, to go out not knowing if they were the next to die in a bombing. We have suffered terrorist outrages for many, many years and have gotten to the point where we are unfortunately used to it. Which is why London continues with it's daily life as normal.. We are used to this kind of outrage.

I've missed two bombings by 24 and 18 hours, standing in exactly the spots the IRA and London bombers detonated devices in Manchester and London and quite frankly, from this side of both the fence and the Atlantic I have total faith in the Police and in their shoot to kill approach to this situation.. I have to ask myself how the average trigger happy US officer would have reacted in such a situation given their history of shooting people dead in far less obvious scenarios..

I will continue to travel in London by tube and bus, as I always do. It's never been safe, it never will be. But I'm glad we have officers that don't take chances when the lives of innocent people are quite obviously at risk.. If they kill an innocent person in doing so it is tragic, if they kill somebody running away after they identify themselves in a known terroist environment then so be it..

As for the terrorists too. There has been a lot of talk of these bombings being linked to Iraq and UK troops being stationed there. If the troops pull out, the bombings stop.. This has been mentioned by Islamic extremists, they also mention that 26,000 Iraqis have died since the US and UK conflict in Iraq started. What isn't mentioned is that two thirds of those dead have died by insurgents and fundamentalists within Iraq. A little ironic.... Having said that, 26,000 dead in Iraq in three years... 50,000 die of starvation and AIDS in Africa each single day.... It's all relative really isn't it?

[madformac]

Another point is that the police were plain-clothed, so onlookers were not immediately aware that they were police. My hunch is that they were not ordinary police, or even SO19 (the armed section of the police who normally carry rifles not pistols) - maybe they were SAS, and those guys have no compunction about killing anyone at any time.


I was thinking it would have been SO19. Running around playing with pistols is not usually what the SAS do.. They are involved in surveilance work yes but are strictly observing and are only used in extreme situations, particularly explosive entry or hostage situations, plus they will only intervene with direct authorisation from the officer in charge of the operation. However they will always kill given the chance and five bullets rather than the regulation two is more their style, the fact his face was totally blown off too is an SAS trademark so it is a possibility that they were on surveilance and it turned to a threat, and as has been seen in the past the Police were too slow in getting to the scene.

[GateandGarden]

What that report doesn't make clear is that the train was full of people at the time, and they saw the guy get shot four or five times in the head. People here aren't even used to police carrying guns, let alone blowing someone away on a train in full view. You just don't expect it to happen while you're travelling to work in the morning. I use that tube line a lot and I don't know how I would have dealt with seeing someone get offed like that while I'm standing there minding my own business.

Another point is that the police were plain-clothed, so onlookers were not immediately aware that they were police. My hunch is that they were not ordinary police, or even SO19 (the armed section of the police who normally carry rifles not pistols) - maybe they were SAS, and those guys have no compunction about killing anyone at any time.Interesting...and very disturbing. Thanks for that info. That's absolutely horrible that the train was full of people. I really cannot imagine how it was to be one of them.

[gldstwmn]

The man was on the ground restrained when he was shot five times in the head at point blank range.

[strandinthewind]

Shot man not connected to bombing
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.
The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

Police also said a suspect package found in north-west London on Saturday may be linked to Thursday's attacks.

'Tragedy'

Scotland Yard said Mr Menezes, who lived in Brixton, south London, was completely unconnected to the bomb attacks and added: "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."





The Brazilian government has expressed its shock at the killing and Brazil's foreign minister Celso Amorim is on his way to London to get an explanation from foreign secretary Jack Straw.

In a statement the government said it "looks forward to receiving the necessary explanation from the British authorities on the circumstances which led to this tragedy".

The shooting is being investigated by officers from Scotland Yard's Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

The family of Mr Menezes told the Brazilian media there was nothing in his past which would give him a reason to run from police.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Alves, told O Globo television: "I asked that the body be released as quickly as possible, we need to bring him to Brazil, which is what the family wants".

"He does not have a past that would make him run from police," he said.

Mr Alves said Mr Menezes, who was from the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, had lived in London legally for at least three years and was employed as an electrician. Civil rights groups have called for a full inquiry into the shooting.

Meanwhile Dr Azzam Tamimi from the Muslim Association of Britain told BBC News the police should review their procedures.


HAVE YOUR SAY
A situation like this demands firm and decisive action
Peter Nurse, France


"Frankly it doesn't matter whether he is a Muslim or not, he is a human being.

"It is human lives that are being targeted whether by terrorists or whether in this case unfortunately, by people who are supposed to be chasing or catching the terrorists."

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."

Suspicious package

A package was found by a member of the public in bushes in Little Wormwood Scrubs on Saturday morning.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "Explosives officers attended the scene. An initial examination suggests that the object may be linked to devices found at four locations in London on July 21."

Police said it would be subject to "detailed forensic analysis".

Police have also raided a house in Streatham Hill, south London, in connection with the failed attacks.

Meanwhile the News of the World newspaper has offered a £100,000 reward to catch the second wave of London bombers.

Scotland Yard said they had been contacted by over 500 members of the public following the release of CCTV footage of four suspects.

Detectives said they were hopeful of useful lines of inquiry coming from the calls and e-mails.

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

[tuigirl]

I thought she was saying that shooting people in the chest is what they normally do if the person resists arrest.

...umm no, I was suggesting on what I heard off the tv news that, British police, if NEEDING to bring down a man (which dosn't usually happen very much), would shoot in the chest (shoulder area, legs too I imagine depending on the circumstances) with the intent not to kill, but to disable. Of course that has now all changed.It is tragic that this man is dead and seems to be unconnected, but as MFM said, he did come from a house under serveillence (for some time, wer'e told) and made the bad decision to run when told to stop.I don't think we'll see the last of these incidents considering how tense the situation is at the moment, lets just hope this is a lesson for anyone else thinking of resisting arrest.

[GateandGarden]

...umm no, I was suggesting on what I heard off the tv news that, British police, if NEEDING to bring down a man (which dosn't usually happen very much), would shoot in the chest (shoulder area, legs too I imagine depending on the circumstances) with the intent not to kill, but to disable. Of course that has now all changed.It is tragic that this man is dead and seems to be unconnected, but as MFM said, he did come from a house under serveillence (for some time, wer'e told) and made the bad decision to run when told to stop.I don't think we'll see the last of these incidents considering how tense the situation is at the moment, lets just hope this is a lesson for anyone else thinking of resisting arrest.Oh, okay. Thank you for explaining.

[gldstwmn]

They know how to shoot people in the chest and avoid killing them every time? :confused:

Pretty much, yes.

[gldstwmn]

I thought she was saying that shooting people in the chest is what they normally do if the person resists arrest.

Actually, it's the "torso."

[gldstwmn]

He was Brazilian, but I don't know if he spoke English or not... It was a terrible senseless mistake but you also have to understand there's a sense of incumbent new tragedy in Europe right now. Intelligence Reports say it's not over and some Countries are more at risk right now. So I guess the nerves are pretty much shaken.

Romy

Since we've already been to this rodeo over here, I am watching with fascination to see how the British government is reacting to this tragedy. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

[gldstwmn]

Well, I'm going to have a rant now... I don't have them often and usually I tend to keep the peace around here but I'm sick of hearing about criticism of our Police..



I don't think anyone here has ever criticized your police before. Do you mean the police are being crticized over there by the press and such?

[gldstwmn]

Secondly, you have a suspect, followed from a house that has been under surveilance for some time by MI5 and Special Branch and linked with the terrorists in question

Mmmm. I heard it was an aprtment building or row houses. He could have been just a visitor to one of those, no?
Also, why announce that they were watching those apartments/row houses? That cover is blown now.

[gldstwmn]

When it looks like he is to board a train it is felt necessary for the Police to reveal themselves to him... They shout "Halt, armed Police!" and what does he do???? He runs! Runs towards the tube train followed by up to 20 armed officers..

Again, I heard they were plain clothes and that only five officers were in close pursuit. If you didn't speak English and a bunch of people with guns were chasing after you screaming, what might you do?

And it seems as usual, the cries of wrong doing come from a country with very little history of terrorism.. Before Oklahoma and 9/11 the United States were somewhat naive, indeed, the majority of funding for the IRA terrorist campaign during the 1970's and 80's especially came from the USA. Ah yes, the Irish Republican Army. It has been the norm for more than 30 years for ordinary people walking the streets of London, Birmingham, Manchester, Belfast etc, to go out not knowing if they were the next to die in a bombing. We have suffered terrorist outrages for many, many years and have gotten to the point where we are unfortunately used to it.
True. But this is your first go round with "Al CIAda", no?

I have to ask myself how the average trigger happy US officer would have reacted in such a situation given their history of shooting people dead in far less obvious scenarios..
Well, we still can't find Bin Laden and what's worse is no one seems to care.

I will continue to travel in London by tube and bus, as I always do.
And I will wish for the continued safety of you and everyone else who has to do so.


As for the terrorists too. There has been a lot of talk of these bombings being linked to Iraq and UK troops being stationed there. If the troops pull out, the bombings stop.. This has been mentioned by Islamic extremists, they also mention that 26,000 Iraqis have died since the US and UK conflict in Iraq started.
Actually, our government stopped counting the Iraqi casualties long ago. In fact, I'm not sure they ever really counted them in the first place. The numbers that have been floated about exceed 100,000.
Don't be fooled by the propagandist term "insurgent." Certainly they are being funded by someone. But let me ask you this. If your country was attacked ( and it was, some sixty plus years ago) don't you think your countrymen would somehow fight back? They certainly would and did. Back in those days, it was called "the resistance." That's what you're seeing in Iraq now. Can you blame them? We have no valid reason to be there. That's already been established.

edited for clarity

[strandinthewind]

Apology for Mistaken Shooting

Monday, July 25, 2005

Associated Press

LONDON — The head of London's (search) police force expressed deep regret Sunday for the slaying of a Brazilian man by officers who mistook him for a suspect in the recent terror bombings, but defended the police use of deadly force.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair (search) also said there were similarities between the explosives used in Thursday's failed bomb attacks and those detonated in the deadly July 7 bombings. But he said investigators still had no proof the two strikes were linked.

"The equipment in the bombs had all the elements that it should have but it didn't work," Blair told Sky News TV, referring to the explosives that failed to detonate properly Thursday on three subway cars and a double-decker bus.

"It had some similarities" to the devices used by four homicide bombers who killed themselves and 52 other people in three subway trains and a double-decker bus July 7.

Later Sunday, relatives and friends of people killed in those explosions planned to visit the sites of the attacks after a police briefing on the state of the investigation.

Commissioner Blair, asked if the latest attacks and the July 7 bombings were connected, replied, "We have no proof that they are linked but clearly there is a pattern here."

Police have made two arrests after Thursday's botched attacks. Officers have not released the identities of the arrested, nor many other details about them. Blair said the arrested remained in custody, but added that officers were "still anxious for any sighting of the four individuals" who carried out the Thursday strikes. Closed-circuit TV stills of the suspects were made public last week.

Police also said a package found in west London on Saturday may be linked to the devices used in Thursday's bomb attempts, but gave no details of what the package contained.

The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes (search), 27, a Brazilian citizen. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

Police initially said they believed Menezes was linked to the investigation of Thursday's attacks, but later said he had no connection to the bomb attempts.

"This is a tragedy," Commissioner Blair said of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

He defended the officers' shooting to kill, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot to kill policy; it's only a shoot to kill in order to protect policy," he said.

British police had drawn from the experience of other countries that have had to deal with suicide attackers, he said.

"It is drawn from experience from other countries, including Sri Lanka. The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head," Blair said. "There is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is where the bomb is likely to be," Blair said.

Blair spoke of the problem his officers faced.

"What we have got to recognize is that people are taking incredibly difficult fast-time decisions in life threatening situations," he said. "... What's most important to recognize is that it's still happening out there. There are still officers out there having to make those calls as we speak."

Police said Menezes attracted police attention because he left a building that was under surveillance after Thursday's attacks. They said he was then followed by surveillance officers to the station, and that his clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions.

Brazil's Foreign Ministry said it was "shocked and perplexed," over the death of Menezes, whom they did not name, but described as "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake."

Britain's Foreign Office said that Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, who is visiting London, would hold a private meeting with a British official to discuss the circumstances of the shooting.

Menezes was an electrician who had been working in Britain for three years, said his cousin Alex Pereira, who also lives in London.

"He was a 100 percent good guy who never did anything wrong and had no reason to run," Pereira said. "I don't think he ran from police. I don't think he would do that. They can't show anything that shows that he had."

The shooting was an indication of the anxiety in the city of about 8 million people. A police watchdog organization, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said it would investigate the shooting but make sure not to hinder the bombings probe.

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said such an investigation was critical for reassuring the public.

"It's incredibly important that society remains united at such a tense time, it's very important that young Asian men don't feel that there is some kind of trigger-happy culture out there," Chakrabarti said.

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said, "It's absolutely vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to overzealousness."

[SuzeQuze]

The man was on the ground restrained when he was shot five times in the head at point blank range.

Which is completely f*cked up no matter what country you are in. If he was restrained he could have been cuffed and thus disarmed.

[strandinthewind]

Which is completely f*cked up no matter what country you are in. If he was restrained he could have been cuffed and thus disarmed.

. . . and they would have all blown up with him assuming he had ready access to the trigger device, which is an assumption they would have to make :shrug: I mean if law enforcement has the chance to shoot in the head a suicide bomber before their bomb goes off and kills lots of people, they are going to shoot them in the head - though the thought of that is horrifying to me.

I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

[madformac]

. . . and they would have all blown up with him assuming he had ready access to the trigger device, which is an assumption they would have to make :shrug: I mean if law enforcement has the chance to shoot in the head a suicide bomber before their bomb goes off and kills lots of people, they are going to shoot them in the head - though the thought of that is horrifying to me.

I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

Thanks for making my point in a more polite and informative way.. :D :nod:

[bretonbanquet]

I think a couple of things need to be straightened out here. The police had a building under surveillance which they suspected was connected to the bombings in London. This building contained five apartments. Menezes walked out of the building and the police suspected him because of his bulky jacket and allegedly there were wires protruding from his pockets etc. They did not apparently know who Menezes was, nor that he was an electrician.

They didn't challenge him then, but they called for armed police support and followed him. Menezes boarded a bus and the police tailed him in a car. When the bus stopped three miles later outside Stockwell tube station and Menezes got off, a number of armed policemen dressed in jeans and T-shirts ran down the street after him. He freaked and ran into the station, presumably where he was going anyway. There seems to be some doubt whether or not the police informed him of who they were. He vaulted the ticket barriers, ran down the escalator and on to the platform, pursued by the police. A train was waiting, doors open - Menezes half-jumped, half-fell on to the train, whereupon the policemen boarded the train and shot Menezes five times in the head.

The problem people are having with the police is that their intelligence was wrong - they had no idea who the guy actually was, he was just in the wrong building at the wrong time. The police say they allowed Menezes to board the bus in case he led them to other terrorists. This prompts the reasonable argument that he could have easily blown up the bus, unchallenged by the police. When Menezes got off the bus and entered the tube station, suddenly the police decide he's going to blow something up and they kill him. Also, Menezes could have easily activated any bomb he might have been carrying as soon as he knew he had been discovered - he could have blown up the ticket hall, the platform, anything - the police didn't stop to wonder why Menezes hadn't already activated the bomb. They seem to have been prepared to kill someone based on the basis of suspicion in the absence of any hard facts.

Stockwell isn't a very pleasant area, I lived there for a year in 2002-2003 and twice in my own street I came upon people who had just been mugged, one a pregnant woman threatened at gunpoint two days before Christmas. Guns are not commonplace, but not rare, and violence is not particularly unusual. When faced with a few guys running down the street at you waving guns, you might run. Another point is that Menezes had outstayed his visa and may have run because he thought he had been found out. Of course the police didn't know any of this, because they had no idea who he was. Menezes spoke good English and had told his family that he had been stopped by the police a few times - he had always answered their questions and been allowed on his way, his relatives said.

Another aspect people are drawing attention to is that Menezes was dark-skinned - had he been blond, would he have been suspected? The police procedure was at best unprofessional. Having said that, I have some sympathy for the guys who pulled the trigger, because they were only acting on orders - they had been told the suspect was a danger to the public and for all they knew they were about to be blown up. On the other hand, shooting someone five times in the head is certainly a little excessive.

I don't think it was any kind of hit, just a screw-up. They suspected him without any real evidence and leant on that flimsy suspicion while they killed him - on that evidence they could be shooting any number of tanned guys wearing bulky jackets who walk out of or past the wrong building.

[strandinthewind]

I think a couple of things need to be straightened out here. The police had a building under surveillance which they suspected was connected to the bombings in London. This building contained five apartments. Menezes walked out of the building and the police suspected him because of his bulky jacket and allegedly there were wires protruding from his pockets etc. They did not apparently know who Menezes was, nor that he was an electrician.

They didn't challenge him then, but they called for armed police support and followed him. Menezes boarded a bus and the police tailed him in a car. When the bus stopped three miles later outside Stockwell tube station and Menezes got off, a number of armed policemen dressed in jeans and T-shirts ran down the street after him. He freaked and ran into the station, presumably where he was going anyway. There seems to be some doubt whether or not the police informed him of who they were. He vaulted the ticket barriers, ran down the escalator and on to the platform, pursued by the police. A train was waiting, doors open - Menezes half-jumped, half-fell on to the train, whereupon the policemen boarded the train and shot Menezes five times in the head.

The problem people are having with the police is that their intelligence was wrong - they had no idea who the guy actually was, he was just in the wrong building at the wrong time. The police say they allowed Menezes to board the bus in case he led them to other terrorists. This prompts the reasonable argument that he could have easily blown up the bus, unchallenged by the police. When Menezes got off the bus and entered the tube station, suddenly the police decide he's going to blow something up and they kill him. Also, Menezes could have easily activated any bomb he might have been carrying as soon as he knew he had been discovered - he could have blown up the ticket hall, the platform, anything - the police didn't stop to wonder why Menezes hadn't already activated the bomb. They seem to have been prepared to kill someone based on the basis of suspicion in the absence of any hard facts.

Stockwell isn't a very pleasant area, I lived there for a year in 2002-2003 and twice in my own street I came upon people who had just been mugged, one a pregnant woman threatened at gunpoint two days before Christmas. Guns are not commonplace, but not rare, and violence is not particularly unusual. When faced with a few guys running down the street at you waving guns, you might run. Another point is that Menezes had outstayed his visa and may have run because he thought he had been found out. Of course the police didn't know any of this, because they had no idea who he was. Menezes spoke good English and had told his family that he had been stopped by the police a few times - he had always answered their questions and been allowed on his way, his relatives said.

Another aspect people are drawing attention to is that Menezes was dark-skinned - had he been blond, would he have been suspected? The police procedure was at best unprofessional. Having said that, I have some sympathy for the guys who pulled the trigger, because they were only acting on orders - they had been told the suspect was a danger to the public and for all they knew they were about to be blown up. On the other hand, shooting someone five times in the head is certainly a little excessive.

I don't think it was any kind of hit, just a screw-up. They suspected him without any real evidence and leant on that flimsy suspicion while they killed him - on that evidence they could be shooting any number of tanned guys wearing bulky jackets who walk out of or past the wrong building.

Well, said and I agree.

However, I think that he lived in that building, had wires sticking out of his jacket, and he vaulted the turnstyle and headed straight for a train doomed him. Had he not done that, he might still be alive. I think this was just a horrible and tragic mistake.

Having said that, I would hate to be a cop and faced with this decision. I mean could imagine having that weight on your shoulders and then, when you think you have just saved countless people by stopping a man from a suspect building, acting strangely, and with wires sticking out of his coat (I mean the odds there :shrug: ) , who was running toward an unpreviously bombed train - you realize you screwed up and in hindsight, which is 20/20, you realize that maybe a little more research or prudence could have prevented this death, which is now on your hands and even though you were trying to do the right thing in a city somewhat in a panic or at least weary of death by terrorists. That has got to be horrible for those cops. But, I suppose at least they are not dead because of their error, unlike this poor guy.

Also, I think (speculate) they were unsure about him when he got on the bus. But, I think once he started jumping obstacles and toward a train, they erred (literally) on the side of caution, which if this guy had had a bmob, none of us would be questioning this.

The whole thing is a mess and it horrifies me that it happened.

[madformac]

Again, I heard they were plain clothes and that only five officers were in close pursuit. If you didn't speak English and a bunch of people with guns were chasing after you screaming, what might you do?

You stop and put your hands up... You are in a public area with security cameras and lots of bystanders around. If they were armed muggers I would stop and let them take what they wanted.. I've not seen anybody outrun a 633mph bullet yet.. After reading some of the latest reports a team of exactly five armed men and the nature of the killings does suggest SAS rather than Police officers here I feel.


True. But this is your first go round with "Al CIAda", no?


22nd regiment special air services have engaged Al Qaeda in Afganistan for sure, possibly Iraq and most probably Pakistan already.. As for first round, everywhere Bush's pack of bloodhounds have gone after them, we have gone in too due to Blair's tongue so far up W's ass he has to say yes..


Well, we still can't find Bin Laden and what's worse is no one seems to care.


I totally believe the intelligence agenices know exactly where he is but to capture him is politically and religously not a good idea at this time.. I believe he is a valuable US asset left on the run.


Don't be fooled by the propagandist term "insurgent." Certainly they are being funded by someone. But let me ask you this. If your country was attacked ( and it was, some sixty plus years ago) don't you think your countrymen would somehow fight back? They certainly would and did. Back in those days, it was called "the resistance." That's what you're seeing in Iraq now. Can you blame them? We have no valid reason to be there. That's already been established.

You are correct, we have no valid reason to be there other than bolstering the US economy with weapons development, job creation, rebuilding and construction involving US and "allied" companies.. Oh yes, and oil too..

Can I blame the "insurgents?" for attacking US and UK targets no I can't... I can however blame them for suiciide bombing innocent Iraqis and children yes, absolutely.. I can also blame them for following a regime of fear and murder that has ended in the deaths of millions over many years..

[bretonbanquet]

Strand - Yes, I agree - especially that if this guy had turned out to be loaded with explosives, those cops would have got medals. One newspaper already jumped on that bandwagon - their headline was "1 down, 3 to go" in reference to the 4 would-be bombers from last week. Whoops...

Certainly running from the cops doomed him - but I guess he was working on instinct as much as the cops were - it's a real tragedy. What will be interesting is how the police will deal with this kind of thing next time. And it certainly shows how jumpy the city is at the moment :(

[paleshadow]

. . . and they would have all blown up with him assuming he had ready access to the trigger device, which is an assumption they would have to make :shrug: I mean if law enforcement has the chance to shoot in the head a suicide bomber before their bomb goes off and kills lots of people, they are going to shoot them in the head - though the thought of that is horrifying to me.

I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.


I agree. I would also venture to guess if this situation turned out differently, say if the man did have a bomb and instead of being shot they attempted to arrest him and the bomb was detinated killing many innocent people, some of the same individuals who criticized the police for shooting him may be criticizing them for not shooting him. Especially if they knew someone who was killed in the blast. I also think people would think differently if they were one of the officers in that situation. Remember too, that this incident came right on the heels of the previous bombings.

[bretonbanquet]

You stop and put your hands up... You are in a public area with security cameras and lots of bystanders around. If they were armed muggers I would stop and let them take what they wanted.. I've not seen anybody outrun a 633mph bullet yet..

Not sure I agree there - no-one knows what they'd do until they're in that situation. One thing's for sure, you don't stop to think. If your instinct says run, you run - it's too easy to say what you'd do when you're sitting at home talking about it.

[strandinthewind]

Strand - Yes, I agree - especially that if this guy had turned out to be loaded with explosives, those cops would have got medals. One newspaper already jumped on that bandwagon - their headline was "1 down, 3 to go" in reference to the 4 would-be bombers from last week. Whoops...

Certainly running from the cops doomed him - but I guess he was working on instinct as much as the cops were - it's a real tragedy. What will be interesting is how the police will deal with this kind of thing next time. And it certainly shows how jumpy the city is at the moment :(

Let's hope next time they get their facts and shiitte together and prevent a needless death like this one :nod:

[madformac]

Strand - Yes, I agree - especially that if this guy had turned out to be loaded with explosives, those cops would have got medals. One newspaper already jumped on that bandwagon - their headline was "1 down, 3 to go" in reference to the 4 would-be bombers from last week. Whoops...

Certainly running from the cops doomed him - but I guess he was working on instinct as much as the cops were - it's a real tragedy. What will be interesting is how the police will deal with this kind of thing next time. And it certainly shows how jumpy the city is at the moment :(

Once he ran his fate was sealed.. It was an indication of (wrongly) guilt to the officers and he was not going to be allowed onto that train no matter what.

I agree too that he could have had explosives and if they were unsure, then he ran, they really had no choice but to execute him. There was a good chance of him being a bomber based on what they had seen as he left the flat. And to answer your question, if they were placed in the same situation again, I believe they would do it again... You cannot take any chances in these kinds of situations, especially when faced with somebody running away.

[bretonbanquet]

Let's hope next time they get their facts and shiitte together and prevent a needless death like this one :nod:

Absolutely. Intelligence is the key, and it's got to be strong if you're going to go around shooting suspects.

[madformac]

Let's hope next time they get their facts and shiitte together and prevent a needless death like this one :nod:


UK newspapers are the worst and most vicious in the world. I won't and don't buy them purely because 90% is bull****, the other 10% is just crap..

Yes it was a needless, but I fear unavoidable death.. The fact he was on an out of date visa and was an illegal alien makes it more tragic. He shouldn't have been in the situation in the first place.

[bretonbanquet]

UK newspapers are the worst and most vicious in the world. I won't and don't buy them purely because 90% is bull****, the other 10% is just crap..

Yes it was a needless, but I fear unavoidable death.. The fact he was on an out of date visa and was an illegal alien makes it more tragic. He shouldn't have been in the situation in the first place.

Couldn't agree more - I don't buy newspapers either - the amount of misinformation in there is scary. I stick to radio and TV.

One thing that bothered me is that when the news came out that Menezes was in the UK illegally, it somehow justified his killing in some people's eyes - almost as if, 'well, he must have been up to something if he was here illegally' - disgusting attitude.

[madformac]

Couldn't agree more - I don't buy newspapers either - the amount of misinformation in there is scary. I stick to radio and TV.

One thing that bothered me is that when the news came out that Menezes was in the UK illegally, it somehow justified his killing in some people's eyes - almost as if, 'well, he must have been up to something if he was here illegally' - disgusting attitude.

Yep, I encountered that today... I spoke to somebody in the street that said it was, quote "his fault because he shouldn't be in the f**king country" :shocked:

He was at fault for running, but then it's the "fight or flight reaction" of instinct to a degree, although it was to me very odd to run..

I think it's an unacceptable reaction to say the situation occured because he was here on a lapsed visa, it's even more tragic because of that but I feel no doubt the tabloids will use this as a reason to attack the government on the immigration issue and get more print out of the story..

I must add, I do feel the killing, however tragic, was justified under the reason of a clear threat to the security of the tube passengers and the suspects reaction to the situation. I fully stand by the decision to take hard arrests when there is sufficient, and I do believe it was sufficient in the timescale they had, evidence of a possible deadly outcome.

[bretonbanquet]

Yep, I encountered that today... I spoke to somebody in the street that said it was, quote "his fault because he shouldn't be in the f**king country" :shocked:

He was at fault for running, but then it's the "fight or flight reaction" of instinct to a degree, although it was to me very odd to run..

I think it's an unacceptable reaction to say the situation occured because he was here on a lapsed visa, it's even more tragic because of that but I feel no doubt the tabloids will use this as a reason to attack the government on the immigration issue and get more print out of the story..

Yes, some people, especially the media, will always turn an issue into something it's not just to suit themselves. I'm no fan of the government, but to turn this incident into an attack on some unconnected point of government policy would be sick, not to mention insulting to the rest of us.

[HomerMcvie]

They know how to shoot people in the chest and avoid killing them every time? :confused:
Police academies teach you to shoot to STOP. And never to shoot to wound. They reference cases of perps being intentionally wounded(shot to wound only) in a police shooting, and the perp receiving a settlement, or payments for life, sometimes even paid by the officer. Chest area is what they teach you to shoot. So, a STOP shot is usually a lethal one.

The lesson for everyone in this is: when the police order you to stop, you stop, period.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, some people, especially the media, will always turn an issue into something it's not just to suit themselves. I'm no fan of the government, but to turn this incident into an attack on some unconnected point of government policy would be sick, not to mention insulting to the rest of us.


LOL - as a Yank, I find the British Papers, esp. The London Daily and a few in Cardiff (Globe, etc. ) - to be sooooo pithy that I just laugh out loud reading them. A lot of that is the diff. way we use the English lang. and also the hard slant of them - and they just fire away :laugh:

The two worst in the world - but still hysterical are Le Monde and Le Figaro.

Ahhhhhh - the world of print :cool:

[gldstwmn]

.
I cannot believe people are missing that point. I get that this guy was wrongly suspected, but the police thought he was wearing a bomb and getting on a train in a city that recently has had several bombs expode on trains and this guy lived in the same building as the suspects and he was acting in an erradict manner. I hate that this happened to this guy - I hate it a lot. But, I think the police deserve some slack here. I think the problem is people do not believe the police about this guy being a suspect and think instead that the London police performed some sort of hit. I have no comment on the latter theory.

Unfortunately, he's not alive to tell his side of the story. And there are two sides to every story. :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Unfortunately, he's not alive to tell hi side of the story. And there are two sides to every story. :nod:

Well, the reports of the running from the law, etc. from the press are based on eyewitness testimony and not what the police said. So, that is another side.

I just think this was a horrible mistake based on a strange set of facts.

I mean the guy was wearing a winter coat in August - that is just bizarre.

So you really think the police deserve no slack here? I think they do, though I also think the officers should be reprimanded in some way. Again, if that guy had had a bomb, which his actions pointed to, they would be heros. But, her did not and despiste the odd facts that pretty much all pointed to him having a bomb, the police were wrong and that is just not acceptable in a free society.

[gldstwmn]

22nd regiment special air services have engaged Al Qaeda in Afganistan for sure, possibly Iraq and most probably Pakistan already.. As for first round, everywhere Bush's pack of bloodhounds have gone after them, we have gone in too due to Blair's tongue so far up W's ass he has to say yes..



Sorry, I meant in your own country. I am well aware of how the Brits have stood with us through many a conflict.

[gldstwmn]

So you really think the police deserve no slack here?

Did I say that?
I don't know. Surely there are surveillance tapes. That should give a pretty good indication of what happened. According to the BBC now, he was shot eight times. I'd at least like to see what he was wearing. :shrug:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4713753.stm

Police shot Brazilian eight times

Mr Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The man mistaken for a suicide bomber by police was shot eight times, an inquest into his death has heard.
Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.

Det Insp Elizabeth Baker revealed the details at a hearing in London.

Security sources said Mr Menezes had an out-of-date visa, but his family denied this. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said he believed he was legally in the UK.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said the police would "kill thousands of people" if they were not held accountable for what had happened at Stockwell.

World press ponder attacks
Victim's final journey

He said: "They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did. They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Brazilian media reports say British human rights lawyer Gareth Peirce is acting as the family's legal adviser, amid reports that they are considering suing Scotland Yard.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) will investigate the shooting.

Nick Hardwick, head of the IPCC, said the commission needs to find out the truth of what happened "to ensure it can never happen again".

He said that "if people haven't acted in accordance with the law and their training" they would be held accountable.

Mr Straw met Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim in London, where they discussed the return of Mr Menezes' body to Brazil.

Both Mr Straw and Mr Amorim said they believed he was living in the UK legally - though there are reports that his precise immigration status is still being checked..

"I haven't got any precise information on his immigration status, my understanding is he was here lawfully," Mr Straw said.

The Home Office could not confirm his immigration status but said they were looking into it "as a matter of urgency".

Suspects named

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it

Ken Livingstone
London mayor

A total of five people have been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings and the police have named two suspects: Muktar Said-Ibrahim, 27, also known as Muktar Mohammed-Said, and Yasin Hassan Omar, 24.

'Support police'

Tony Blair said he was "desperately sorry" an innocent man had lost his life.

The prime minister said it was right for Britain to express its "sorrow and deep sympathy" to Mr Menezes' family.

But he said the police must be supported in doing their job.

He added that they would have been criticised had the suspect turned out to be a terrorist and they had failed to take action.


Mr Menezes' cousin says the police "must pay"

London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".

He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it."

On Friday morning, Mr Menezes had left his flat in Tulse Hill and boarded a bus towards Stockwell Tube station.

He had been followed by police, who had his block of flats under surveillance.

When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force

Maria do Socorro

Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian papers in London.

Police chased him on to a Tube train where he was shot dead.

Cancer treatment

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers as to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before his immigration status had been questioned, said she thought the police had acted "like amateurs".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Ms Socorro said the family were considering suing over the shooting.

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.

He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away - if that is indeed what he did do."

[strandinthewind]

Did I say that?
I don't know. Surely there are surveillance tapes. That should give a pretty good indication of what happened. According to the BBC now, he was shot eight times. I'd at least like to see what he was wearing. :shrug:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4713753.stm

Police shot Brazilian eight times

Mr Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The man mistaken for a suicide bomber by police was shot eight times, an inquest into his death has heard.
Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.

Det Insp Elizabeth Baker revealed the details at a hearing in London.

Security sources said Mr Menezes had an out-of-date visa, but his family denied this. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said he believed he was legally in the UK.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said the police would "kill thousands of people" if they were not held accountable for what had happened at Stockwell.

World press ponder attacks
Victim's final journey

He said: "They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did. They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Brazilian media reports say British human rights lawyer Gareth Peirce is acting as the family's legal adviser, amid reports that they are considering suing Scotland Yard.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) will investigate the shooting.

Nick Hardwick, head of the IPCC, said the commission needs to find out the truth of what happened "to ensure it can never happen again".

He said that "if people haven't acted in accordance with the law and their training" they would be held accountable.

Mr Straw met Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim in London, where they discussed the return of Mr Menezes' body to Brazil.

Both Mr Straw and Mr Amorim said they believed he was living in the UK legally - though there are reports that his precise immigration status is still being checked..

"I haven't got any precise information on his immigration status, my understanding is he was here lawfully," Mr Straw said.

The Home Office could not confirm his immigration status but said they were looking into it "as a matter of urgency".

Suspects named

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it

Ken Livingstone
London mayor

A total of five people have been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings and the police have named two suspects: Muktar Said-Ibrahim, 27, also known as Muktar Mohammed-Said, and Yasin Hassan Omar, 24.

'Support police'

Tony Blair said he was "desperately sorry" an innocent man had lost his life.

The prime minister said it was right for Britain to express its "sorrow and deep sympathy" to Mr Menezes' family.

But he said the police must be supported in doing their job.

He added that they would have been criticised had the suspect turned out to be a terrorist and they had failed to take action.


Mr Menezes' cousin says the police "must pay"

London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".

He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it."

On Friday morning, Mr Menezes had left his flat in Tulse Hill and boarded a bus towards Stockwell Tube station.

He had been followed by police, who had his block of flats under surveillance.

When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force

Maria do Socorro

Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian papers in London.

Police chased him on to a Tube train where he was shot dead.

Cancer treatment

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers as to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before his immigration status had been questioned, said she thought the police had acted "like amateurs".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Ms Socorro said the family were considering suing over the shooting.

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.

He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away - if that is indeed what he did do."

No you did not say that. I was inferring, etc. Mea Culpa if I was wrong, which I think I was :sorry: :sorry:

Cool article BTW

[gldstwmn]

I can also blame them for following a regime of fear and murder that has ended in the deaths of millions over many years..

Interesting statement. Which regime would that be?

[strandinthewind]

Interesting statement. Which regime would that be?


I think it applies to all regimes ever. I cannot think of one that was pure - I mean from the Egyptians and before to the Romans and Catholics until now and the Muslims are certainly no fan of peace. People on the whole just suck a$$.

[gldstwmn]

I think it applies to all regimes ever. I cannot think of one that was pure - I mean from the Egyptians and before to the Romans and Catholics until now and the Muslims are certainly no fan of peace. People on the whole just suck a$$.

I didn't ask the question with a right answer in mind. My answer is, I'm really not sure. I have my ideas though. :laugh:

[gldstwmn]

People on the whole just suck a$$.

I have to take exception to this statement. By and large, most people are okay. It's just the evil and powerful that get all the news coverage making it look as though all people suck. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I have to take exception to this statement. By and large, most people are okay. It's just the evil and powerful that get all the news coverage making it look as though all people suck. :shrug:


I meant societies in general. I mean look at the history of the world. Every society eventually implodes. The Egyptians did, the Romans did, in many ways the Catholic Christendom did and still is. So, I did not mean individual people as much as I meant the collective mindset of societies. I do think there are good individuals. Having said that, everyone has done crappy things. But, I think most people try to do the right thing. I am sure no one got that but me :laugh:

[madformac]

Interesting statement. Which regime would that be?

You could look at it from differing views...

Reagan, Rumsfeld and the CIA were in bed with Saddam for a number of years when Iran was the big bad enemy. If the US funded Saddam's regime which included chemical and biological warfare on its neighbour, not to mention being fundamentally murderous and evil in this period, a period when many stood behind the Ba'ath party and it's ideals then the blame for the current unrest could be attributed, at least in part, to the invading nation..

[strandinthewind]

You could look at it from differing views...

Reagan, Rumsfeld and the CIA were in bed with Saddam for a number of years when Iran was the big bad enemy. If the US funded Saddam's regime which included chemical and biological warfare on its neighbour, not to mention being fundamentally murderous and evil in this period, a period when many stood behind the Ba'ath party and it's ideals then the blame for the current unrest could be attributed, at least in part, to the invading nation..

I think there is no question the main reason the US was scared of SH's cache, and he most certainly had one at one time and IMO still had one when we invaded though it is hidden - was that we gave it to him in one way or the other :eek: That is a very scary concept once ya get it :eek:

[madformac]

I think there is no question the main reason the US was scared of SH's cache, and he most certainly had one at one time and IMO still had one when we invaded though it is hidden - was that we gave it to him in one way or the other :eek: That is a very scary concept once ya get it :eek:

The only pure reason for the USA to believe he had weapons of mass destruction in the first place without physical evidence is if a previous administration funded and supplied them.. :nod:

[strandinthewind]

The only pure reason for the USA to believe he had weapons of mass destruction in the first place without physical evidence is if a previous administration funded and supplied them.. :nod:

Well, it wasn't just the US, it was the world via many unanimous resolutions by the UN. But, then the head of the UN's family was making millions off of the Oil for Food which depended on the WMD and, sadly, resulted in the death of what could be millions, a significant portion of which were children. That is why when people get all up in arms about W's invasion (which pissed me off too mind you) I just sort of scratch my head and say - well we have lead the world in doing the same thing in another equally BS guise for about a decade now - so it is unfair to just get on W about doing essentially the same thing :shrug: I mean death is death and "we" have been killing hundreds of thousands there for years before W.

On top of all of this was SH, who certainly made it easy.

Can't we establish a colony on the moon and only let good people in :laugh:

[Serrart]

I have to take exception to this statement. By and large, most people are okay. It's just the evil and powerful that get all the news coverage making it look as though all people suck. :shrug:

I don't agree, I think politicians reflect in a way or the other their electors. I'm not saying the all the societies are evil but at the end, when people feel in danger, or are starving, or are scared they silently delegate their leaders to get their hands dirty to improve things. Obviously if their politicians fail, people remember how evil they are and look for new guides.

Romy