London's Mayor Speaks Out

[strandinthewind]

and he is not scared to call a spade a spade :eek:

_______________________________________________________________________

London mayor: West fueled terror

LONDON, England (CNN) -- London Mayor Ken Livingstone has said that Western "double standards" in the Middle East have contributed to the growth of Islamic extremism and terrorist groups such as al Qaeda.

Livingstone told BBC radio on Wednesday that Western intervention in the Middle East since the end of World War I had been motivated by a desire to control the flow of oil.

While condemning suicide bombings, Livingstone indicated that he recognized the conditions that had led Palestinians to take that route in Israel.

"Under foreign occupation and denied a right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs ... I suspect that if it had happened here in England we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves," said Livingstone.

"But I don't just denounce suicide bombers. I denounce those governments which use indiscriminate slaughter to advance their foreign policy."

But Livingstone's comments were rejected by a spokesman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

"The Prime Minister and Ken Livingstone have different views of the world and that remains the case," the Downing Street spokesman said.

"Equally, however, we recognize that Ken Livingstone has provided, as an elected official in London, a lead to the people of London at this tragic time -- at the same time as he expresses views which we fundamentally disagree with."

Blair told lawmakers on Wednesday that he was considering calling a global conference to discuss ways of tackling Islamic extremism following the July 7 London bombings which killed 56 people and injured hundreds more.

"We are looking at the possibility of holding a conference which would bring together some of the main countries who are ... closely involved in these issues ... to try to take concerted action right across the world to root out this kind of extremist teaching," Blair said.

After meeting Muslim leaders on Tuesday, Blair said that extremism was an "evil ideology" that needed to be confronted "by the force of reason." (Full Story)

He also told lawmakers his government was moving in the "right direction" to combat the threat of further attacks and pledged to work with opposition leader Michael Howard to introduce new anti-terror legislation.

In a briefing before parliament, Home Secretary Charles Clarke outlined three new criminal offenses at the heart of those measures.

One new provision would be to make the indirect incitement of terrorism an offense.

Another proposed offense would be acts considered preparatory to terrorism. That would enable security authorities to intervene at an earlier stage to protect the public.

A third would apply a broader definition applied to the giving and receiving of terrorist training.

CNN's European Political Editor Robin Oakley said lawmakers would consider the legislation on their return from summer recess in October and could pass the measures by December.

Speaking later to members of the London Assembly, Livingstone praised Londoners' resilience and solidarity in the aftermath of the bomb attacks.

He said the city would never concede to the threat of terrorism.

"London's communities will continue to stand together in condemnation of anyone who attacks the city," said Livingstone.

He said the city's Underground system would likely be disrupted for some time to come. Three of the four bombings occurred on tube trains.

One of the bombed carriages was lifted out of Edgware Road station Tuesday and taken to an undisclosed location for further forensic examination.

Rail operators say the station will probably remain closed for another two weeks.

Transport police said on Wednesday that sniffer dogs had been deployed on the Underground network for the first time.

"They operate just like dogs who search for drugs except they have been trained to sniff our explosives," a police spokesman told the UK's Press Association.

"They have already started patrolling the Tube with their handlers and they will carry on indefinitely."

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/20/london.attacks/index.html

[gldstwmn]

I don't have a lot of time to go into this right now but he is more right on with that statement than I think he even knows.

[tynan88]

Ken Livingstone seems like a classy leader. I remember seeing him hold a media conference on a train on the Monday after the attack which I thought was a great display, encouraging people to catch the train to work.

I totally agree too, you have to put yourself in their shoes a bit, but the way he talks sometimes, he should be wary not be charged under the new english laws they are thinking of introducing!

[irishgrl]

I abohor the fact we are so dependent upon Middle Eastern Oil, however, the Sunnis especially have profited GREATLY by our oil consumption. Frankly, since their society has NO other commodity to offer in trade on the world's stage, they NEED our dollars. As for the dichotomy between the haves and have-nots in that part of the world, that is more the fault of THEIR OWN societal makeup and not ours. The house of Saud was powerful long before petrodollars entered the picture. Im sorry but they just cant keep blaming all their troubles on the "evil west."

I also disagree with Livingstone in that I believe it really wouldnt matter to the extremists if we left their countries altogether, (or met any of their other demands) they would STILL find some reason to continue their terror tactics because their ULTIMATE aim is eradication of any who arent followers of Islam. They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel. This hatred goes all the way back to the story of Jacob (the son of Isaac's wife Sarai, and Father of the Jewish line) and Esau (the son of Sarai's handmaiden and the Father of the Arab line). On his deathbed, Isaac blessed Jacob (thinking he was Esau) and gave him control over his flocks, goods, lands as well as the right to inherit the power of patriarch over the Jews (Jacob fathered the 12 Tribes of Israel) and to receive the the blessing of God. The Arabs have raged ever since. Their hatred of Christians stems primarily from the Crusades and the fact that after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they have been unable to keep pace with the Western World's march of technology etc. They resent everything about Western civilization, and we are ALL infidels in the minds of these extremists.

I personally believe that this fomenting hatred will eventually engulf the world in a final, horrendous struggle. I pray I am wrong, but this is what I see coming. There is hope however if the Moderate Muslims, the ones who say Islam is about PEACE, will step up and take a stand against these extremists. In truth, I believe they are the only ones who CAN make a difference. Until they face the UGLY side of their religion (as Christians have had to do) the extremists will wreak havoc unchecked.

note: Strand quoted me below before I realized I had named some of the principles incorrectly. For that, my apologies, and I believe the info in the current post is correct, and I had the essential facts correct in any event.

[strandinthewind]

I abohor the fact we are so dependent upon Middle Eastern Oil, however, the Sunnis especially have profited GREATLY by our oil consumption. Frankly, since their society has NO other commodity to offer in trade on the world's stage, they NEED our dollars. As for the dichotomy between the haves and have-nots in that part of the world, that is more the fault of THEIR OWN societal makeup and not ours. The house of Saud was powerful long before petrodollars entered the picture. Im sorry but they just cant keep blaming all their troubles on the "evil west."

I also disagree with Livingstone in that I believe it really wouldnt matter to the extremists if we left their countries altogether, (or met any of their other demands) they would STILL find some reason to continue their terror tactics because their ULTIMATE aim is eradication of any who arent followers of Islam. They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel. This hatred goes all the way back to the story of Isaac (the son of Abrahams wife Sarah, and Father of the Jewish line) and Esau (the son of Sarah's handmaiden and the Father of the Arab line). On his deathbed, Abraham blessed Isaac (thinking he was Esau) and gave him control over his flocks, goods, lands as well as the right to inherit the power of patriarch over the Jews (Isaac fathered the 12 Tribes of Israel) and to receive the the blessing of God. The Arabs have raged ever since. Their hatred of Christians stems primarily from the Crusades and the fact that after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they have been unable to keep pace with the Western World's march of technology etc. They resent everything about Western civilization, and we are ALL infidels in the minds of these extremists.

I personally believe that this fomenting hatred will eventually engulf the world in a final, horrendous struggle. I pray I am wrong, but this is what I see coming.

The only other commodity they have is the Holy Land, and much of what is going on over there has to do with that. As for "They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel" - can you blame them - I mean Israel is not exactly an innocent in all of this.

[irishgrl]

The only other commodity they have is the Holy Land, and much of what is going on over there has to do with that. As for "They absolutely HATE the Jews and will NOT rest until there is NO Israel" - can you blame them - I mean Israel is not exactly an innocent in all of this.

Israel's "crime" is its mere existence (sp?) and the fact that they beat Syria and Egypt to the punch in the 6 days war and decimated the opposing forces before they had a chance to do that to Israel. Again, the hatred is several thousand years old and predates the modern Nation of Israel. Btw, Israel (or the Jews) has a historic claim to its place as the prophesied "promised land" and Arabs have done all they could to prevent any such occupation by Jews and were successful for quite a lengthy time as a result of the Ottoman Empire's control. The fact that Israel was allowed to form at ALL (nevermind the fact that millions of Jews had no other place to go after leaving Germany, Russia, Spain etc) has been a THORN in the Arab side...

I was going to mention the Holy Land and Muslim control of 99% of the Holy places...that concerns me greatly. I can see the day when Christians and Jews alike might be forbidden access to our Holy places....

[strandinthewind]

Israel's crime is forcing an entire people to live under conditions that are violations of human rights as defined by the UN.

I assert though perhaps the most significant, that is just one of many.

In the end, I am torn between hating Israel and understanding their desire to fight for what has been "their" land for the last few decades. I just wish they could get along with the Muslims - but I suspect that will never happen.

[irishgrl]

Israel's crime is forcing an entire people to live under conditions that are violations of human rights as defined by the UN.

I might remind you that the Jews were subjected to MUCH worse during WWII (not to mention historically!)and there was a general consensus among the Free Nations that they deserved a place to live in their own HOMELAND. Personally, considering the fact that they have TRIED to co-exist peacefully in the midst of CONSTANT terrorism (that the world is only NOW getting a taste of) I dont feel one BIT sorry for the Palestinians. In fact, I am amazed at Israel's restraint under the circumstances.

Btw, the UN is evil, and I for one believe that the US should withdraw and let it fall flat on its freakin face. THAT for your precious UN :mad: *insert line of barfing smilies here*

[strandinthewind]

I might remind you that the Jews were subjected to MUCH worse during WWII (not to mention historically!)and there was a general consensus among the Free Nations that they deserved a place to live in their own HOMELAND. Personally, considering the fact that they have TRIED to co-exist peacefully in the midst of CONSTANT terrorism (that the world is only NOW getting a taste of) I dont feel one BIT sorry for the Palestinians. In fact, I am amazed at Israel's restraint under the circumstances.

Btw, the UN is evil, and I for one believe that the US should withdraw and let it fall flat on its freakin face. THAT for your precious UN :mad: *insert line of barfing smilies here*

Israel tried so hard that it gained even more land that did not belong to it :shrug:

Also, so that justifies taking someone else's property and giving it to someone else. How would you feel if someone did that to you. I think you'd be pissed and justifiably so. Then, these usupers put you in a concentration camp, which ironically is what (in a far severer form) they were avoiding in the first place. I mean to hear you say it, the Israeli's are justified in killing people who mostly throw rocks at them, suicide bombers aside.

[irishgrl]

Israel tried so hard that it gained even more land that did not belong to it :shrug:

Also, so that justifies taking someone else's property and giving it to someone else. How would you feel if someone did that to you. I think you'd be pissed and justifiably so. Then, these usupers put you in a concentration camp, which ironically is what (in a far severer form) they were avoiding in the first place. I mean to hear you say it, the Israeli's are justified in killing people who mostly throw rocks at them, suicide bombers aside.

a) Israel gained land as the result of a WAR. Again, several Arab nations had declared war on Israel and would have removed them by force had Israel not trumped them by destroying the opposing air forces.

b) Britain was the power that occupied that part of the world at that time and was the architect of the land divide that created Israel/Palestine

c) contrary to what you assert, suicide bombers are not an *aside*, they are a constant reality, and they dont care WHO their victims are, whether women or children or whatever.

Israel didnt START this conflict but you BETCHA I support their actions against terrorists. As for Palestine, Israel has tried to offer the land back but the reality is, no amount of land offered will be enough to the Arabs unless it is ALL of the land the Jews now occupy. In the Arab world, there is NO ROOM for ANY Jew, plain and simple. Therefore, there will never be peace there.

[strandinthewind]

a) Israel gained land as the result of a WAR. Again, several Arab nations had declared war on Israel and would have removed them by force had Israel not trumped them by destroying the opposing air forces.

b) Britain was the power that occupied that part of the world at that time and was the architect of the land divide that created Israel/Palestine




Funny - I did not know that the Arabs were fighting Britian in WWII :rolleyes: Come on - give me a break, you know better than to assert that tripe. The bottom line is no nation wanted them mostly because they were Jewish and the big wigs got togather and said, let's screw the Arabs out of some land like we have been doing for centuries. Then, people act surprised when the people whose land was stolen get angry :rolleyes:

c) contrary to what you assert, suicide bombers are not an *aside*, they are a constant reality, and they dont care WHO their victims are, whether women or children or whatever.

The suicide bombers are part of an organized force that deserves to dealt with stearnly. i was not talking about them and you know it. I was talking about the kids on the street that throw rocks at the Israeli soldiers who then shoot those kids in the head with the weapons the US provides them.


Israel didnt START this conflict but you BETCHA I support their actions against terrorists. As for Palestine, Israel has tried to offer the land back but the reality is, no amount of land offered will be enough to the Arabs unless it is ALL of the land the Jews now occupy. In the Arab world, there is NO ROOM for ANY Jew, plain and simple. Therefore, there will never be peace there.

Then you must also call Israel a terrorist state because they do the same thing. Interestingly and to be fair, so does the US. Again, Israel puts people in camps, but I guess that is okay with you.

[irishgrl]

Funny - I did not know that the Arabs were fighting Britian in WWII :rolleyes: Come on - give me a break, you know better than to assert that tripe. The bottom line is no nation wanted them mostly because they were Jewish and the big wigs got togather and said, let's screw the Arabs out of some land like we have been doing for centuries. Then, people act surprised when the people whose land was stolen get angry :rolleyes:

The suicide bombers are part of an organized force that deserves to dealt with stearnly. i was not talking about them and you know it. I was talking about the kids on the street that throw rocks at the Israeli soldiers who then shoot those kids in the head with the weapons the US provides them.

Then you must also call Israel a terrorist state because they do the same thing. Interestingly and to be fair, so does the US. Again, Israel puts people in camps, but I guess that is okay with you.

No, Britain wasnt fighting the Arabs in WWII, dont be snide. That area has always been of strategic importance because of the OIL, which was needed for planes and vehicles during the war effort. Britain had units all over that part of the world, especially Africa. Britain occupied and controlled quite a lot of land as you well know :rolleyes: And, it was NOT to screw the Arabs out of anything but rather to carve out for the Jews a place in their OWN HOMELAND that dictated the location. PUH LEEZ.

as for your assertion that Israeli soldiers shoot kids who throw rocks, I dont believe that is right, and I dont support that.

Im telling you that the Jews have (IMO) a more legitimate claim to that part of the middle east than the Arabs do, historically speaking. The Arabs think it is theirs because they captured it from the Israelites and controlled it during the long span of the Ottoman Empire. The Israelites returned the favor during the 6 days war. I want to be very clear, I believe Israel has the right to exist and they also have a right to defend themselves.

As for the camps.......do you honestly think Jews would even get THAT good of treatment from the Palestinians? The short answer is NO. As far as the Arabs are concerned, the only good Jew is a DEAD Jew, and they wouldnt even be lucky enough to live in a camp.

[irishgrl]

No past treatment of the Jewish people gives them the right to hand out injustices to the Palestinian people. That notion is completely absurd. Anyway, no point in arguing, we won't solve any fueds and it seems like a racist discussion to argue that these particular people deserve this. No human being deserves to live the way the Palestinians are forced to, no matter what race, with history as no justification.

I submit that there are plenty of Jews/Israelis who can assure you that the abuses they suffer are still happening today, therefore your assertion regarding "past treatment" is inaccurate, and naive. I guarantee you, if the Arab/Jew roles were reversed, the Jews wouldnt even have the luxury of a "camp" to live in. Arafat has said the Palestinians would NEVER recognize a Jewish state and they teach their children that Israel doesnt exist, and foment hatred in the classrooms akin to the sort of brainwashing that goes on in the Madrassas. Those are the young people that volunteer to be suicide bombers, and families send their children to be schooled in this type of hatred and consider it an honor when their child has blown up innocents. All in all, my sympathies lie with Israel, they are a country under seige and have been since their inception.

Further, I brought up the historical aspect to give you a perspective regarding the dynamics behind the conflict between Arab and Jew, Go back and RE-READ my posts. On second thought--dont. you keep missing the point anyway.

[strandinthewind]

No past treatment of the Jewish people gives them the right to hand out injustices to the Palestinian people. That notion is completely absurd. Anyway, no point in arguing, we won't solve any fueds and it seems like a racist discussion to argue that these particular people deserve this. No human being deserves to live the way the Palestinians are forced to, no matter what race, with history as no justification.


I love it when we agree - though it usually is fleeting :angel:

[strandinthewind]

I submit that there are plenty of Jews/Israelis who can assure you that the abuses they suffer are still happening today, therefore your assertion regarding "past treatment" is inaccurate, and naive. I guarantee you, if the Arab/Jew roles were reversed, the Jews wouldnt even have the luxury of a "camp" to live in. Arafat has said the Palestinians would NEVER recognize a Jewish state and they teach their children that Israel doesnt exist, and foment hatred in the classrooms akin to the sort of brainwashing that goes on in the Madrassas. Those are the young people that volunteer to be suicide bombers, and families send their children to be schooled in this type of hatred and consider it an honor when their child has blown up innocents. All in all, my sympathies lie with Israel, they are a country under seige and have been since their inception.

Further, I brought up the historical aspect to give you a perspective regarding the dynamics behind the conflict between Arab and Jew, Go back and RE-READ my posts. On second thought--dont. you keep missing the point anyway.

They took their property and gave it to people on boats from Europe. I cannot believe you think that was okay.

[irishgrl]

They took their property and gave it to people on boats from Europe. I cannot believe you think that was okay.

Well...........guess what? I do. They had to live SOMEWHERE and what better place than their "promised land"--their historic homeland? They certainly cant lay any claim to any other part of the world, and the land that the Palestinians occupied originally belonged to the Jews. Therefore, it makes perfect sense. You have a displaced people who originally came from an area, in need of a place to call their own....I have no problem with the solution that was worked out. The Palestinians just have to suck it up in MY book. :nod:

besides, the Israelis are willing to share, why cant the Arabs? The answer lies in the fundemental philosophies of each group. The Jews are fighting to be allowed to exist, the Arabs are fighting to eradicate the Jews. I am unashamedly supportive of Israel and the Jews. As far as I am concerned, the Arabs have the vast majority of land in that area and the little bit that Israel lays claim to is justified.

[strandinthewind]

Well...........guess what? I do. They had to live SOMEWHERE and what better place than their "promised land"--their historic homeland? They certainly cant lay any claim to any other part of the world, and the land that the Palestinians occupied originally belonged to the Jews. Therefore, it makes perfect sense. You have a displaced people who originally came from an area, in need of a place to call their own....I have no problem with the solution that was worked out. The Palestinians just have to suck it up in MY book. :nod:

besides, the Israelis are willing to share, why cant the Arabs? The answer lies in the fundemental philosophies of each group. The Jews are fighting to be allowed to exist, the Arabs are fighting to eradicate the Jews. I am unashamedly supportive of Israel and the Jews. As far as I am concerned, the Arabs have the vast majority of land in that area and the little bit that Israel lays claim to is justified.

I think you should have given them your property :laugh: :rolleyes: Seriously, why didn't they just do like everyone else does and go live in a country without establishing it as their own. Why did they have to have their own country and more importantly why the hell did we have to bankroll it when we cannot even feed our own people. In the end, I think Israel has done some good things, but I vehemently oppose the way it was established by essential theft and its subsequent human rights violations, which apparently you are okay with - so be it.

And - the Israeli's are just sooooooo willing to share - I mean their govt. is soooo accepting and always has been :rolleyes:

[irishgrl]

I think you should have given them your property :laugh: :rolleyes: Seriously, why didn't they just do like everyone else does and go live in a country without establishing it as their own. Why did they have to have their own country and more importantly why the hell did we have to bankroll it when we cannot even feed our own people. In the end, I think Israel has done some good things, but I vehemently oppose the way it was established by essential theft and its subsequent human rights violations, which apparently you are okay with - so be it.

And - the Israeli's are just sooooooo willing to share - I mean their govt. is soooo accepting and always has been :rolleyes:

ok, the Jews were evicted out of Russia, Germany, Poland, Lithuania and various other Baltic states as part of a mass pogrom....there is a rampant anti-semitic sentiment that cannot forgive the Jews for being "Jesus killers".
They were driven out of Spain, as well. In fact, the only country the weren't driven OUT of thru Government edict (though they have been persecuted here) is the US. As for why did they have to have their own country...do you hear yourself? Why not?? Every other people on the face of this earth has a place they call their own! And they USED to have their own country until the Arabs took it from them during the Ottoman Empire. They are really only going back where they belong! Makes sense to me :shrug:

I am guessing the reason we "bankrolled" it was for much the same reason we paid reparations to Germany or Japan....we recognized a fundemental inequity and felt a humanitarian impulse to correct it.

As for your sarcasm re: Israel's willingness to share.....as far as I know, the Israeli's have offered numerous "land for peace" deals with the Palestinians...and have bee rebuffed EVERY time. Yes they are guilty of the same sort of violence as the Arabs, but really, I cant blame them as they live in virtual seige conditions, and have done so since Israel's inception. They know that the Arab agenda is to eradicate them and they are hanging on for dear life.

Btw: my property amounts to a hill of beans, really. you might get 200 people on there if they stand shoulder to shoulder....

[strandinthewind]

. . .

I am guessing the reason we "bankrolled" it was for much the same reason we paid reparations to Germany or Japan....we recognized a fundemental inequity and felt a humanitarian impulse to correct it . . . .

or needed a quasi military presence in an oil laden region :shrug:

[irishgrl]

or needed a quasi military presence in an oil laden region :shrug:

I dont know..........maybe :shrug: but we have that anyway in nearby areas so Im not sure if that is a true advantage ???

[strandinthewind]

I dont know..........maybe :shrug: but we have that anyway in nearby areas so Im not sure if that is a true advantage ???


There is also the Jewish vote in the US which is significant and many Jews are very powerful money people a la the Rothchilds. So, that could be it as well. In the end, I think the US and others thought who gives a shiite about that area of the world and they will do as we say or we are going to destroy them. I mean we had been doing that for centuries anyway.

Finally, the fundamentalist Christians want the Jews to return to Zion so Christ can come again. Establishing Israel was, in their heads, a step in that direction.

[irishgrl]

There is also the Jewish vote in the US which is significant and many Jews are very powerful money people a la the Rothchilds. So, that could be it as well. In the end, I think the US and others thought who gives a shiite about that area of the world and they will do as we say or we are going to destroy them. I mean we had been doing that for centuries anyway.

Finally, the fundamentalist Christians want the Jews to return to Zion so Christ can come again. Establishing Israel was, in their heads, a step in that direction.

I cant comment on fundamentalist Christian philosophy, it might as well be Martian philosophy its so foreign to me........and I dont know WHAT the policy makers thought re: creation of Israel or repatriating the Jews. All I know is that I agree with the principle of letting them return HOME.

[irishgrl]

How you can justify the dehumanisation and often slaughter of a people, as carried out by a government, with the argument that there are less of them in the region, that it was theirs to begin with etc. is beyond me. There is no argument, no claim to the land that justifies a government slaughtering and generally treating a people as such. Still, this is inconsequential but it's hard to refrain from pointing out how utterly disgusting it is to support the current treatment of these people.

how can the fact that it was the Jew's land to begin with or that the Jews themselves were victims of dehumanization and slaughter as carried out by various governments mean nothing to YOU? Where's the OUTRAGE on THEIR behalf? The Arabs dont want to share at ALL, whereas the Jews are willing to co-exist (peacefully Im sure if given the chance)
One begins to wonder if you arent racist yourself..........

[strandinthewind]

how can the fact that it was the Jew's land to begin with or that the Jews themselves were victims of dehumanization and slaughter as carried out by various governments mean nothing to YOU? Where's the OUTRAGE on THEIR behalf? The Arabs dont want to share at ALL, whereas the Jews are willing to co-exist (peacefully Im sure if given the chance)
One begins to wonder if you arent racist yourself..........

Well, technically, the land predates both and belonged to about four other major civilizations beforehand. Moreover, even if the Jews had it at one time, that does not justify the West kicking the people who had been there for centuries out for some kind of BS political gain and/or convenience. Again, how would we like it if China can to the US and forced all of the white people off of our land for the sake of the Indians. I think we'd be pissed :shrug: Thus, my problem with the creation of Israel.

[irishgrl]

Well, technically, the land predates both and belonged to about four other major civilizations beforehand. Moreover, even if the Jews had it at one time, that does not justify the West kicking the people who had been there for centuries out for some kind of BS political gain and/or convenience. Again, how would we like it if China can to the US and forced all of the white people off of our land for the sake of the Indians. I think we'd be pissed :shrug: Thus, my problem with the creation of Israel.

Jason, Land being given willy nilly has happened before...Do you remember the Magna Carta where there was a land divide between England and Spain/Portugal? Give me a break, there's precedent. Also, look at the former East/West Germany...THAT was an artificial boundary too......As to the Holy Land, the Jews won that by conquest, they were told by God that it was to be their new home after their 40 years of wandering in the Desert (After Moses led them from Egypt)

I see no problem with the Jews being given back a small portion of their homeland, particularly Jerusalem, which was their former capitol. The Arabs dont have a legit claim in my book. They won it by conquest and lost it the same way. Them's the breaks...

[irishgrl]

That's a giant leap in assumption, do not call me racist. I do not support the type of treatment in question no matter who the victim and who the perpetrator. History never gives people the right to slaughter and enforce inhumane treatment upon innocent people based on their race. That is a barbic notion that would give the aboriginal people of our countries the right to randomly murder or imprison people such as you or I, your children would not be exempt either. I won't argue this one anymore but do not call me racist.

I'll remind you missy you called me racist in the past. Personally I dont care what you think of me. But your one sided defense of the Palestinians is naive if you dont think they would do the same and WORSE to the Jews. Plus, I never said anywhere at any time that I agreed with camps or inhumane treatment of anyone. All I said was, Israel has a right to exist, and would be willing to co-exist with the Arabs. Its the Arabs that have a problem with Israel. As to that, too stinkin bad. Israel had the good sense to beat Egypt and Syria to the punch in the 6 days war and crippled those armies before they could cripple Israels. I say Good Enuff for em. The Palestinians REFUSE to share. My only point has ever been that the Jews have a right to be in their historical homeland whether the Arabs like it or not. And the Palestinians have blood on their hands too, so dont get up on your soapbox about the "poor Palestinians" when innocent Jewish women and children are targeted too, on a daily basis. PUH LEEZ.

[strandinthewind]

Jason, Land being given willy nilly has happened before...Do you remember the Magna Carta where there was a land divide between England and Spain/Portugal? Give me a break, there's precedent. Also, look at the former East/West Germany...THAT was an artificial boundary too......

I see no problem with the Jews being given back a small portion of their homeland, particularly Jerusalem, which was their former capitol. The Arabs dont have a legit claim in my book. They won it by conquest and lost it the same way. Them's the breaks...

Well, no they do. I mean people conquer land all of the time. If you truly feel this way, I fully expect you to give your home to whatever Native American tribe originally was there because in theory you took it from them about 300 or so years ago :wavey:

[irishgrl]

Well, no they do. I mean people conquer land all of the time. If you truly feel this way, I fully expect you to give your home to whatever Native American tribe originally was there because in theory you took it from them about 300 or so years ago :wavey:

The Native American Tribes in my area are making WAAAAAY too much $$ from their casinos to worry about my piddly .25 acre.....They'd LAFF their BUTTS OFF if I offered it to them I betcha! :eek: :nod: :xoxo:

besides, since my land isnt part of any recognized rez, there wouldnt be tribal sovereignty here, and I think they'd prefer to keep their immunity from US laws ya know?

actually I dont think there were technically any tribes in my neck of the woods on a permanent basis anyway....I think they were East of me and South of me and up the Feather River Canyon....but not RIGHT here...though Im sure they passed thru here, its such a pretty place.....

[strandinthewind]

I'll remind you missy you called me racist in the past. Personally I dont care what you think of me. But your one sided defense of the Palestinians is naive if you dont think they would do the same and WORSE to the Jews. Plus, I never said anywhere at any time that I agreed with camps or inhumane treatment of anyone. All I said was, Israel has a right to exist, and would be willing to co-exist with the Arabs. Its the Arabs that have a problem with Israel. As to that, too stinkin bad. Israel had the good sense to beat Egypt and Syria to the punch in the 6 days war and crippled those armies before they could cripple Israels. I say Good Enuff for em. The Palestinians REFUSE to share. My only point has ever been that the Jews have a right to be in their historical homeland whether the Arabs like it or not. And the Palestinians have blood on their hands too, so dont get up on your soapbox about the "poor Palestinians" when innocent Jewish women and children are targeted too, on a daily basis. PUH LEEZ.

I do not think Lux is defending the Palestinians. I think she is just noting that the Israeli's do bad things as well, both of which she has said she abhors. Yet, you refuse to admit Israel has acted in any manner but an altruistic one and they are these poor victims, when the facts clearly suggest the opposite of that is true.

Also, I certainly am not defending any use of violence by either side. I am just saying that I get why the people who were moved from their homes by a foreign power in a political move of convenience have a legitimate gripe and I get where they are coming from. I do not in any way support their suicide bombings, etc. That is just wrong.

In the end, I think Israel has the potential to be a greater nation than it is, but its leaders refuse to let it go there. Such is life.

[strandinthewind]

The Native American Tribes in my area are making WAAAAAY too much $$ from their casinos to worry about my piddly .25 acre.....They'd LAFF their BUTTS OFF if I offered it to them I betcha! :eek: :nod: :xoxo:

besides, since my land isnt part of any recognized rez, there wouldnt be tribal sovereignty here, and I think they'd prefer to keep their immunity from US laws ya know?

Any subsequent and happenstance pecuniary gain is irrelevant to the issue, which is it is their property - give it back.

[irishgrl]

I do not think Lux is defending the Palestinians. I think she is just noting that the Israeli's do bad things as well, both of which she has said she abhors. Yet, you refuse to admit Israel has acted in any manner but an altruistic one and they are these poor victims, when the facts clearly suggest the opposite of that is true.

Also, I certainly am not defending any use of violence by either side. I am just saying that I get why the people who were moved from their homes by a foreign power in a political move of convenience have a legitimate gripe and I get where they are coming from. I do not in any way support their suicide bombings, etc. That is just wrong.

In the end, I think Israel has the potential to be a greater nation than it is, but its leaders refuse to let it go there. Such is life.

Actually I'll remind you that you mentioned Israeli soldiers shooting kids who throw rocks and I said I didnt agree with that. Im NOT saying I agree with everything Israel does, but they ARE a Nation under seige and I dont think its our place to Judge them.

[irishgrl]

Any subsequent and happenstance pecuniary gain is irrelevant to the issue, which is it is their property - give it back.
Again: my neck of the woods was not part of any tribal land historically therefore there is nothing to give back.......since there is no one to give it back to.........:shrug:

The day that a Native American from this area comes knocking on my door laying claim to my piddly corner of the world, well OK then. :rolleyes:
I expect YOU to do the same of course, being the great humanitarian that you are...... :p

[strandinthewind]

Again: my neck of the woods was not part of any tribal land historically therefore there is nothing to give back.......since there is no one to give it back to.........:shrug:

The day that a Native American from this area comes knocking on my door laying claim to my piddly corner of the world, well OK then. :rolleyes:
I expect YOU to do the same of course, being the great humanitarian that you are...... :p

Oh Ney Ney - they aint getting squat from me! :cool:

[strandinthewind]

Actually I'll remind you that you mentioned Israeli soldiers shooting kids who throw rocks and I said I didnt agree with that. Im NOT saying I agree with everything Israel does, but they ARE a Nation under seige and I dont think its our place to Judge them.

. . . and it was and is not our place to create or sustain them either - thus my point. I think they are the only country in the world that has such protection and benefits - which to me begs the question of why. I mean look at this (emphasis supplied):

THE DEVELOPMENT CHALLENGE: Israel has long been a strong ally of the United States. Israel strongly condemned the September 11th attacks on the United States, and the close bilateral relationship that the United States has with Israel serves the national security interests of both countries. USAID assistance provides Israel the funds it needs to promote economic reforms.

A fundamental U.S. Government objective in Israel is to reduce Israel’s balance-of-payment pressures as it continues to pursue the economic reforms required for financial stability and structural adjustments needed for rapid, sustainable growth. Since 1993, export competitiveness has improved, and inflation has been reduced. Expanding business investment and governmental infrastructure investment, coupled with sustained export growth, are helping Israel reach its gross domestic product growth rate potential of about five percent.

Israel's economy has responded favorably in recent years to the restructuring imposed after the crises and hyperinflation of the mid-80s. Since 1990 the economy has become increasingly sophisticated and technologically advanced. In FY 1999, Congress began a reduction of the economic assistance earmark in recognition of this progress. The government still faces economic challenges associated with absorbing nearly 900,000 immigrants since 1989 in a country of only six million. Israel's economy slowed down considerably in 2001 from the strong growth levels of 2000. The Israeli economy grew by six percent in 2000, with zero inflation. Foreign investment, mostly in the high-tech sector, soared, reaching a record $9 billion. Growth in 2000 would have been even greater had it not been for a sharp downturn at the end of the year. Growth plunged 10% (annualized basis) in the fourth quarter of the year from third quarter levels.

The end of the year downturn was caused by a combination of factors. The violence in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza led to a steep drop in the number of foreign tourists. Construction and agriculture were hurt by the sudden loss of Palestinian workers, unable to travel to jobs in Israel because of closures imposed by the Israeli military. A drop in economic growth in the United States led to a lower level of exports. Finally, the steep drop on the stock exchange resulted in a decrease in the rate of new foreign investment in Israel. Many Israeli high-tech firms list on U.S. stock exchanges (nearly 100 Israeli firms are listed, more than from any country outside North America).

The U.S. Government strongly supports Israel’s reform measures and underscores its support at the U.S.-Israel Joint Economic Development Group (JEDG), which traditionally meets annually. These high-level policy discussions also help to reinforce Israel’s commitment to the reform process. Beyond maintaining a stable macroeconomic environment, the reduction of unemployment will require reform of the financial sector, the reduction in labor market inflexibility, the continuation of trade liberalization, and an acceleration of the privatization program. The United States intends to promote Israel’s economic and political stability through continued support of its economy.

THE USAID PROGRAM: The United States, acting through the USAID, will provide $720,000,000 in FY 2002 funds to Israel as a cash transfer. These funds will be used by Israel primarily for repayment of debt to the United States, including re-financed Foreign Military Sales debt, and purchases of goods and services from the United States. The U.S. State Department will continue to encourage Israeli reform to reduce government spending and deficits, to improve tax and public wage structures, to increase privatization, to reform labor markets, and to continue to liberalize its trade regime.

In FY 2003, the anticipated cash transfer will be $600,000,000.

ONGOING PROGRAMS FOR WHICH NO FY 2002 OR FY 2003 FUNDING IS REQUESTED: None.

OTHER PROGRAM ELEMENTS: In addition to the cash transfer to Israel, USAID’s Global Bureau for Economic Growth, Agriculture and Trade manages a number of regional programs that involve Israel. The Middle East Regional Cooperation (MERC) Program promotes technical cooperation between Israel and its Arab neighbors, with particular attention to the development needs of those countries. The Cooperative Development Research (CDR) Program brings Israeli and developing country scientists together to collaborate in solving problems relevant to the developing countries. The Cooperative Development Program (CDP) provides funding for the State of Israel’s own general development assistance program, which is implemented by the Center for International Cooperation (known as MASHAV), a part of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

OTHER DONORS: The United States is the largest bilateral donor to Israel.

http://www.usaid.gov/pubs/cbj2003/ane/il/

I mean Isreal is not a huge trading country like most of Europe, China, Japan, etc. So, there is no advantage to make the billions we have given them approach an investment, etc. Why is Israel so important to us. I suggest the fundamentalist Christians are promoting it because God cannot establish His Son in Israel as King of the Jews unless the Jews are living in Palestine, their promised homeland, so it is God's plan to restore the Jews to Palestine before the Second Coming of Christ. That is a little scary. Here is a far far Christian right wing view of this http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/second.html

Again, I think Israel does some great things. I just am uneasy about how it was established and how it maintains the peace.

[golddustdragon]

I sure hope oil runs out soon in the Mid East. It might knock most of the wind from the cause of the fundamentalists and the Zionists. No oil, no good reason to have Israel bleed the country dry of taxpayers' dollars.

[irishgrl]

I mean Isreal is not a huge trading country like most of Europe, China, Japan, etc. So, there is no advantage to make the billions we have given them approach an investment, etc. Why is Israel so important to us. I suggest the fundamentalist Christians are promoting it because God cannot establish His Son in Israel as King of the Jews unless the Jews are living in Palestine, their promised homeland, so it is God's plan to restore the Jews to Palestine before the Second Coming of Christ. That is a little scary. Here is a far far Christian right wing view of this http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/second.html

Again, I think Israel does some great things. I just am uneasy about how it was established and how it maintains the peace.

I myself have no problem with the relationship between the US and Israel. They definitely wouldnt be able to exist if not for our financial help. Im sure our mutual security is enhanced by intelligence info sharing... The Mossad is, I think, one of the finest Intelligence agencies in the world.

I think the fundies are plain wacko re: the second coming (not that I discount the second coming, but to actively support Israel ONLY because its existence fulfils a prophecy is OUT THERE)

As for the oil...I wish the middle east would dry up too...and I REALLY REALLY wish we would develop on a mass scale the new hybrid and electric/solar cel cars... for without their oil they have nothing to sustain their economies and thus revert back to camel jockeys. Maybe they could open a glass works...they've got plenty of SAND :nod: