Trouble in Shangri-La....

[catinthedark]

So all this talk about Shangri La and whether it's a metaphor or a simile or even poetry got me wondering...

What does everyone really think the album title "Trouble in Shangri La" means? Is it:

A) What Stevie says? All about achieving greatness and then losing it all? Or... is she being her oh-so-often-not-quite-precise self, and it really more specifically refers to...

B) The relationship she wrote about in so many of the songs on this highly thematic album? Is there trouble in that Shangri La? Is there trouble in the Shangri La of the subject so many of the TISL songs refer to? Or is it...

C) Something completely different, in your humble opinion?

Just curious what y'all think.

[dissention]

I think it's mostly about her, her career, and her pampered lifestyle mostly, with some of her lousy relationships thrown in there to taste.

I try not to think about what her songs mean to her or what they're about because I don't really care. I just want to hear them and attach my own meaning to them. If I dwelled on her writing it about her rock star life, I wouldn't enjoy it as much. Thankfully it isn't in your face like that swill Ghosts and That Made Me Stronger.

[diamondsnake]

I think it means that it looks like Stevie has it all. A big house, adoring fans, etc. but she really doesn't have the one thing she really wants- love. Almost all the songs are about love that has been lost. The last song is heartbreaking really...

Love changes in the flash of an eye, it leaves people burning by the side of the road.

I Still Live alone!!!

Love is... watching you go.

I remember him, he was very young.

I miss you now, I have so many questions about love...

It's not enough that you say you love me!

I didn't come all the way here just to watch you walk out that door.

Everyday I need you, every way I breathe you!

She wants someone to love and all the money and houses and fans in the world will never change that and it may seem like she is living the American Dream but money can't buy love.

[amber]

I think it's mostly about her, her career, and her pampered lifestyle mostly, with some of her lousy relationships thrown in there to taste.
.
Probably a safe bet. It's probably her thinking she was down at some point, and blah Stevie, all about Stevie, more about Stevie, etc. about Stevie.
And then she'll say it's about this other stuff, which I'm sure she cares and thinks about, but really, it's about her.

[dissention]

Probably a safe bet. It's probably her thinking she was down at some point, and blah Stevie, all about Stevie, more about Stevie, etc. about Stevie.
And then she'll say it's about this other stuff, which I'm sure she cares and thinks about, but really, it's about her.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Yup.

[Hawkeye]

Thankfully it isn't in your face like that swill Ghosts and That Made Me Stronger

That Made Me Stronger is 100 percent in your face only Stevie could relate to that song, I agree. But I think Ghosts is quite universal. What about it, do you find in your face?

[dissention]

That Made Me Stronger is 100 percent in your face only Stevie could relate to that song, I agree. But I think Ghosts is quite universal. What about it, do you find in your face?

To feel the empty spaces she's feeling
She depends on her music like a husband
And she knows it's no good to fall in love again...
One day they were lovers...one day they were friends
There was nothing else to say

Puuuuuuuuuuke.

[diamondsnake]

That Made Me Stronger is 100 percent in your face only Stevie could relate to that song, I agree. But I think Ghosts is quite universal. What about it, do you find in your face?
Probably the "She depends on her music like a husband". I love that line myself.

[GypsyNomad]

I would have to go with:

A) What Stevie says? All about achieving greatness and then losing it all? Or... is she being her oh-so-often-not-quite-precise self, and it really more specifically refers to...

I believe "Trouble in Shangri La" means something like paradise lost.... I do think that a relationship may also tie into this song as well. Maybe it was also based on those years after rehab, tranquilizers, and that slump in her career for a few years in the mid-90s :shrug: She was on top of the world, and then maybe she thought she was losing everything around her..... I do remember her saying that this album took 7 years to make, so I'm sure she wrote some of these songs during that time frame.

~Carei

[Hawkeye]

To feel the empty spaces she's feeling
She depends on her music like a husband
And she knows it's no good to fall in love again...
One day they were lovers...one day they were friends
There was nothing else to say

Puuuuuuuuuuke.

well I'd say the first 2 minutes of the song is fine. So if you listen to the first 2 minutes and then press skip, the problem is solved :laugh: Thats what I do.

[diamondsnake]

I think a lot of people can relate to "one day they were lovers, one day they were friends, there was nothing else to say"

[amber]

To feel the empty spaces she's feeling
She depends on her music like a husband
And she knows it's no good to fall in love again...
One day they were lovers...one day they were friends
There was nothing else to say

Puuuuuuuuuuke.
But what about -
"It's just the ghost of what you want to be
And the ghost of the past that you live in

It's just the ghost of what you really want
And it's the ghost of the past that you live in
And it's the ghost of the future you are frightened of"

I think those lyrics are extremely relatable, and I also think they are kind of brill. I like that song a lot for those words. Well, and the tune, but... :nod:

[dissention]

well I'd say the first 2 minutes of the song is fine. So if you listen to the first 2 minutes and then press skip, the problem is solved :laugh: Thats what I do.

That would work a little if I thought it was a decent song to begin with. Unfortunately, I don't. Those lyrics and the way they're sung do NOT fit the music. They go together like milk and orange juice. And the whole song is just too needy and whiney for me, much like If You Ever Did Believe.

[Hawkeye]

But what about -
"It's just the ghost of what you want to be
And the ghost of the past that you live in

It's just the ghost of what you really want
And it's the ghost of the past that you live in
And it's the ghost of the future you are frightened of"

I think those lyrics are extremely relatable, and I also think they are kind of brill. I like that song a lot for those words. Well, and the tune, but... :nod:

yeah the chourus of thats song is absolutely some of Stevie's most brilliant lyrics ever. I guess this is a perfect example of one of Stevie's two faced half brilliant half bad songs. She doesnt have many. Most are either clearly great or clearly horrid.

[amber]

yeah the chourus of thats song is absolutely some of Stevie's most brilliant lyrics ever. I guess this is a perfect example of one of Stevie's two faced half brilliant half bad songs. She doesnt have many. Most are either clearly great or clearly horrid.
Actually, I think most songs are half bad, half brill, but I like them anyways. But I can see why you would say that. :)

[diamondsnake]

yeah the chourus of thats song is absolutely some of Stevie's most brilliant lyrics ever. I guess this is a perfect example of one of Stevie's two faced half brilliant half bad songs. She doesnt have many. Most are either clearly great or clearly horrid.
I don't think Stevie has too many clearly horrid songs, but that is just me...

[Hawkeye]

I don't think Stevie has too many clearly horrid songs, but that is just me...

neither do I. Most are clearly great. But I think there are msore that clearly suck then this middle song thing I just invented :laugh:

[diamondsnake]

neither do I. Most are clearly great. But I think there are msore that clearly suck then this middle song thing I just invented :laugh:
Most songs I like the little Stevie quirks so much that the song is great to me. Alice being a perfect example. Everyone hates this song and probably says it "clearly sucks" but I love it! Who else would compare their life to Alice in Wonderland?

[amber]

Most songs I like the little Stevie quirks so much that the song is great to me. Alice being a perfect example. Everyone hates this song and probably says it "clearly sucks" but I love it! Who else would compare their life to Alice in Wonderland?
um...almost everyone I know? Sesly, it's not that brill. It's nice, but brill it is not.

[KarmaContestant]

They go together like milk and orange juice.


Ugh....that made my stomach turn.

[Hawkeye]

Most songs I like the little Stevie quirks so much that the song is great to me. Alice being a perfect example. Everyone hates this song and probably says it "clearly sucks" but I love it! Who else would compare their life to Alice in Wonderland?

I really have grown to love Alice. But thats one I used to hate.

[darklinensuit]

To feel the empty spaces she's feeling
She depends on her music like a husband
And she knows it's no good to fall in love again...
One day they were lovers...one day they were friends
There was nothing else to say

Puuuuuuuuuuke.

This is the only part of the song I hate. The rest is magic.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

I think it has to do with image vs. reality, getting to the point where you can't fool even yourself any longer. Like when the other side of the mirror is better than the one you're on, but it's not real anyway. Specifically I think she's speaking of the cult of celebrity, the prices she has paid for everything. I think of the lady of Shalott seeing what she wants to see but feeling a curse.

- Jake

[diamondsnake]

um...almost everyone I know? Sesly, it's not that brill. It's nice, but brill it is not.
Different strokes for different folks. I would put Alice in my top ten.

[amber]

Different strokes for different folks. I would put Alice in my top ten.
That's fine, I wasn't saying it was bad, I'm just saying it's an easy comparison that lots of people have thought of. Heck, I got my Alice in Wonderland tattoo when I was 18... :shrug:

[darklinensuit]

That's fine, I wasn't saying it was bad,

And here I was all ready to agree with you, and then you say this. :distress: ;)

- Jake

[amber]

And here I was all ready to agree with you, and then you say this. :distress: ;)

- Jake
Ha, well, I don't like it, but that wasn't part of my point.

[Kelly]

Number two, Cat. (not now though)

[Highwayman]

Ahem... Back to TISL...

It's kinda hard to say what exactly this album is about. The lyrics for many of the songs are so scattered that there doesn't seem to be much cohesion there. The heavy hitters -- title track, POTU, BS -- are so scattered and confusing that it's hard to put a consistant theme about the album.

[sarafield]

Ahem... Back to TISL...

It's kinda hard to say what exactly this album is about. The lyrics for many of the songs are so scattered that there doesn't seem to be much cohesion there. The heavy hitters -- title track, POTU, BS -- are so scattered and confusing that it's hard to put a consistant theme about the album.

I agree, and I think that's the result of using songs written in the '70s next to songs written recently next to songs written by others. The way Stevie described the album before it came out, I think, made it sound like it would be a concept album, but I don't get that, either...

As far as the "half bad, half brill" songs, I agree for the most part her songs have both of those elements. I think she badly needs editing sometimes, and that she can get lazy in her songwriting and excuse that away by saying "It's the poet that I am." She always says that she can write a song in a couple of hours, well so can most people, if you want to write a bad or mediocre song! Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of her stuff, which is why I'm here - but she doesn't rework her songs as much as she should. With the lyrics specifically: a few edits, fixing the tense here and there and cutting down on the WELLs would cut down on the distractions and let the great imagery shine.

[gldstwmn]

So all this talk about Shangri La and whether it's a metaphor or a simile or even poetry got me wondering...

What does everyone really think the album title "Trouble in Shangri La" means? Is it:

A) What Stevie says? All about achieving greatness and then losing it all? Or... is she being her oh-so-often-not-quite-precise self, and it really more specifically refers to...

B) The relationship she wrote about in so many of the songs on this highly thematic album? Is there trouble in that Shangri La? Is there trouble in the Shangri La of the subject so many of the TISL songs refer to? Or is it...

C) Something completely different, in your humble opinion?

Just curious what y'all think.

Well, I already wrote about that to a certain extent in another thread but really, IMO I think it's a combination of all three.

[sparky]

As far as the "half bad, half brill" songs, I agree for the most part her songs have both of those elements. I think she badly needs editing sometimes, and that she can get lazy in her songwriting and excuse that away by saying "It's the poet that I am." She always says that she can write a song in a couple of hours, well so can most people, if you want to write a bad or mediocre song! Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of her stuff, which is why I'm here - but she doesn't rework her songs as much as she should. With the lyrics specifically: a few edits, fixing the tense here and there and cutting down on the WELLs would cut down on the distractions and let the great imagery shine.

I would like to arrange for you to get some kind of prize.

[David]

Different strokes for different folks. I would put Alice in my top ten.I remember buying the "Rooms on Fire" cassette single before the album was out. I played "Rooms on Fire" two or three times, & then spent the next week playing only "Alice" on the B side. I was fascinated by "Alice." It's one of the most interesting, unusual things Stevie's done in the last 20 years.

It's real White-Rabbity. It's like the Jefferson Airplane song, Part II. Alice is still perambulating through her id, being both buffeted about by & charmed by the surreal bits of her psyche: it's Stevie's most successful experiment in the incommensurateness of our lives.

VIVA ALICE!!

[SapphireSister]

Stevie in her own words re: TISL

"Well, it was written, it was written at the same, it was written in the last two months of the O.J. Simpson trial. And I try to make it really clear to people that it was not written about O.J. It was written about the situation that he and many people that sort of make it to the height of their field. Whether you're a sports figure or a rock star or a doctor or a lawyer, indian chief, you know, candlemaker... whatever it is, when you kind of get to the top of your field and you are, like, really there. And how difficult it is for people to stay there. And how difficult it is for people to not go crazy. And how really hard it is for people to enjoy life, you know, to just say, "wow, I made it, I'm rich, I have lots of great friends, I can travel for the rest of my life, I'm free," you know? And, but yet, that isn't enough, then. That becomes your world, and then that's not enough, and then, if you're searching for paradise, you found it, and suddenly what you thought was paradise, isn't really paradise."
~Stevie Nicks, iVillage interview, 5-2-01

[Highwayman]

. . . but she doesn't rework her songs as much as she should. With the lyrics specifically . . .

With that said, what do you make of her claim that she doesn't want to release a song until it is just right, with all the "unreleased" songs floating about?

[sarafield]

I would like to arrange for you to get some kind of prize.

BWAH! :lol:

[sparky]

With that said, what do you make of her claim that she doesn't want to release a song until it is just right, with all the "unreleased" songs floating about?

In the years I have spent listening to her demos and finsihed products, I have come to the conclusion that "unfinished" is said mostly in reference to production. With a few notable exceptions (POTU being the primary one) the lyrics remain virtually unchanged in the various versions of songs I have heard. This leads me to believe what Stevie has said herself many times - that the lyrics are pulled directly from her journals. Period. It's almost as if she thinks there is something pristine about the first pass. Of course, it's possible to have a finished set of profound, evocative lyrics erupt from one's mind onto the page. However, it doesn't always happen. Homegirl clearly does not believe in the maxim "Great writing is rewriting". This, to me, is her achilles heel as a songwriter.

[SapphireSister]

With that said, what do you make of her claim that she doesn't want to release a song until it is just right, with all the "unreleased" songs floating about?

Possibly because to her those particular songs are ready to be released in her mind and don't need to be reworked anymore as others think they should. It's all about perspective and she feels very strongly when it comes to what she wants people to hear and what she doesn't. That's why her demos floating around infuriates her so much.

[sarafield]

With that said, what do you make of her claim that she doesn't want to release a song until it is just right, with all the "unreleased" songs floating about?

That's a good question. I don't really know what to make of that! I suppose I am to assume, then, that she considers all these songs the best they can be. I disagree. Then, for my sake ;) , I wish she had an objective person around to help her edit the songs a bit (not a lot). I'm not sure she would allow that, as she seems to be very protective of her songs.

I'm focusing more on the lyrics here because she doesn't seem to write too many tunes anymore. I'd love to see ethereal imagery throughout a song without some clunky line ruining it. "Yes I was outspoken" in Goodbye Baby comes to mind; it sticks out like a sore thumb in that song to me. "Will you write this for me / He says no, you write your songs yourself" is another example of a line that could have been written differently. The constant "Well"s grate on my nerves and obscure the words that come next. Many times I'm drawn into the song's world just to be spit out by a badly-written line.

I suppose she feels she's got a very loyal following, so if it ain't broke, she won't fix it. We pretty much know that Stevie finds something that works and then sticks with it. She did it with her wardrobe and image - with fantastic results. She chose her themes - the mystical, fame and love, and hasn't veered too much except for a few topical songs (Illume, Desert Storm etc.) She has written the same 4-5 tunes over and over throughout her career. IIRC, Waddy said that he tried to get her away from using the same two chords, and she told him no, that's what works for her, and in the end, he agreed. So... perhaps she feels no need to "improve" upon her songs. I'm just saying what I think would make them more enjoyable, highlight her strengths, and help combat her reputation as a somewhat self-indulgent songwriter.

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Maybe I need an editor myself. ;-)

[SapphireSister]

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Maybe I need an editor myself. ;-)

No no, you're writing and your insight are great! I thought the same thing about the prize in regard to your other post. Oh and welcome by the way
:wavey:

[sparky]

I'm focusing more on the lyrics here because she doesn't seem to write too many tunes anymore. I'd love to see ethereal imagery throughout a song without some clunky line ruining it. "Yes I was outspoken" in Goodbye Baby comes to mind; it sticks out like a sore thumb in that song to me. "Will you write this for me / He says no, you write your songs yourself" is another example of a line that could have been written differently. The constant "Well"s grate on my nerves and obscure the words that come next. Many times I'm drawn into the song's world just to be spit out by a badly-written line.

Are you channeling me ? Are you my long lost twin ? Will you marry me ?

I suppose she feels she's got a very loyal following, so if it ain't broke, she won't fix it. We pretty much know that Stevie finds something that works and then sticks with it. She did it with her wardrobe and image - with fantastic results. She chose her themes - the mystical, fame and love, and hasn't veered too much except for a few topical songs (Illume, Desert Storm etc.) She has written the same 4-5 tunes over and over throughout her career. IIRC, Waddy said that he tried to get her away from using the same two chords, and she told him no, that's what works for her, and in the end, he agreed. So... perhaps she feels no need to "improve" upon her songs. I'm just saying what I think would make them more enjoyable, highlight her strengths, and help combat her reputation as a somewhat self-indulgent songwriter.

You, preacher. Sparky, choir.

Anyway, sorry to ramble. Maybe I need an editor myself. ;-)

No, you don't. Ramble on, baby.
I want your opinions about EVERYTHING.
:nod: :woohoo:

[amber]

Are you channeling me ? Are you my long lost twin ? Will you marry me ?



You, preacher. Sparky, choir.



No, you don't. Ramble on, baby.
I want your opinions about EVERYTHING.
:nod: :woohoo:
Wow, and here I thought everyone already thought that. :thumbsup: Well said, though, Sarafield.

[sarafield]

Wow, and here I thought everyone already thought that. :thumbsup: Well said, though, Sarafield.

Hello and thanks SapphireSister, Sparky and Amber! :) Sparky, you're too funny!

(But yes, I know my opinion on this matter is not unique. I'm sure other right-thinking people have had the same exact thought... ;) )

[Serrart]

So all this talk about Shangri La and whether it's a metaphor or a simile or even poetry got me wondering...

What does everyone really think the album title "Trouble in Shangri La" means? Is it:

A) What Stevie says? All about achieving greatness and then losing it all? Or... is she being her oh-so-often-not-quite-precise self, and it really more specifically refers to...

B) The relationship she wrote about in so many of the songs on this highly thematic album? Is there trouble in that Shangri La? Is there trouble in the Shangri La of the subject so many of the TISL songs refer to? Or is it...

C) Something completely different, in your humble opinion?

Just curious what y'all think.

I think it's a self portrait in every aspect of her personality: she says things in a straight, direct, almost violent way. There's her glance on the world she's living in, a quite uncompromising look at her mistakes and to the intense emotions that give strength to her relationships , to the way she used to react to men, choices, work, art, everyday life, and how she's changed through the years. She talks of her vulnerabilities without buliding castles on them, but showing how they hurt and helped her. It's like to see Stevie and also her reflection in a mirror: she says what she's decided to leave behind her, and what she's ready to keep from that point on. It's a very intimate, and at the same time, universal album, for me.


Romy

[Johnny Stew]

Wow, and here I thought everyone already thought that. :thumbsup: Well said, though, Sarafield.It's often assumed that I don't agree that Stevie's lyrics could sometimes be written "better," etc.
Can't even tell you how often I change a line when I'm singing along.

In my own artwork and writing, I often go too far in trying to edit and re-edit everything. "I can do that better" or "I can make that sound better."
I often end up smoothing the character right out of something, much to my chagrin.

I guess that's why I admire the attitude of Stevie's, where she's pretty much saying, "no, it's not perfect, but it is accurate to what I was feeling. Warts and all."

Her sentiments can be clunky sometimes, and her word choices can be a bit cringe-worthy... but, FOR ME (I always feel I have to say it that way, because five people will come along to tell me why I'm wrong), I like that Stevie's odd little personality isn't polished right out of her songs.

[catinthedark]

It's often assumed that I don't agree that Stevie's lyrics could sometimes be written "better," etc.
Can't even tell you how often I change a line when I'm singing along.

In my own artwork and writing, I often go too far in trying to edit and re-edit everything. "I can do that better" or "I can make that sound better."
I often end up smoothing the character right out of something, much to my chagrin.

I guess that's why I admire the attitude of Stevie's, where she's pretty much saying, "no, it's not perfect, but it is accurate to what I was feeling. Warts and all."

Her sentiments can be clunky sometimes, and her word choices can be a bit cringe-worthy... but, FOR ME (I always feel I have to say it that way, because five people will come along to tell me why I'm wrong), I like that Stevie's odd little personality isn't polished right out of her songs.

Me, too!! I completely agree with you. The one thing I'll say, though, is sometimes I am surprised by how beautiful and poetic her words can be (take Rhiannon, for example - She is like a cat in the dark, and then she is the darkness... ) and how... er... not so poetic they can also be ("She said will you write this for me? He said no, you write your songs yourself").

I agree, too, that she does write about similar topics (love being the primary one) but I think that's part of the voice she;s found through her years writing. It is what she feels she does best; it's how she feels she expresses herself best. If I didn't love it, I wouldn't be here. :)