Competition

[DavidMn]

I'm still kinda new here and trying to feel things out a bit, but one thing I've noticed, both before I joined and since, is that there seems to be a pretty good divide between the fans that like the pre 1975 lineup and post 1975. The same goes for the individual fans of Stevie and Lindsey. I totally respect anyone's opinion on whichever way they choose to go. But here's the way I look at it. Some people call themselves Stevieheads or Lindseyheads, some prefer the older lineup or the newer. For myself, I would have to say I'm a Fleetwood Mac head. I very much enjoy both the older and newer linups. not so much the Bekka and Dave years, and ad far aas Billy and Rick go, they're very good, just not quite up to par with Lindsey in my opinion. Anyway, My interest in the other band members, IE, Stevie and Lindsey is an outgrowth of my interest in the band as a whole. And while I very much enjoy seeing Stevie solo, and would enjoy seeing Lindsey solo, (Never have on that one) I would always choose to see them with Fleetwood Mac first. I'm curious to see what other people think about this. I will enjoy reading the responses.


DavidMn

"And He Was Just Like A Great Dark Wing...."

[HomerMcvie]

I'm still kinda new here and trying to feel things out a bit, but one thing I've noticed, both before I joined and since, is that there seems to be a pretty good divide between the fans that like the pre 1975 lineup and post 1975. The same goes for the individual fans of Stevie and Lindsey. I totally respect anyone's opinion on whichever way they choose to go. But here's the way I look at it. Some people call themselves Stevieheads or Lindseyheads, some prefer the older lineup or the newer. For myself, I would have to say I'm a Fleetwood Mac head. I very much enjoy both the older and newer linups. not so much the Bekka and Dave years, and ad far aas Billy and Rick go, they're very good, just not quite up to par with Lindsey in my opinion. Anyway, My interest in the other band members, IE, Stevie and Lindsey is an outgrowth of my interest in the band as a whole. And while I very much enjoy seeing Stevie solo, and would enjoy seeing Lindsey solo, (Never have on that one) I would always choose to see them with Fleetwood Mac first. I'm curious to see what other people think about this. I will enjoy reading the responses.


DavidMn

"And He Was Just Like A Great Dark Wing...."

And yet, through all that, you don't even mention Christine. :(
If you're wondering where most of this divisiveness comes from, IMO- full FM band fans are turned off by people saying that one member is the end all, and be all, member. There's one member who has quite a devoted following. She, once upon a time, was probably my favorite member. But, my taste grew, and I came to appreciate the contributions of the other members more. Now, she's no better than any of the others, IMO. And I personally feel it's a slap in the face of the others, when they place her lone arse on a pedestal.

[chiliD]

There's one member who has quite a devoted following. She, once upon a time, was probably my favorite member. But, my taste grew, and I came to appreciate the contributions of the other members more. Now, she's no better than any of the others, IMO. And I personally feel it's a slap in the face of the others, when they place her lone arse on a pedestal.

There you go...droning on & on & on about Christine again. :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

There you go...droning on & on & on about Christine again. :shrug:
Twas not the arse to which I was referring! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Johnny Stew]

There you go...droning on & on & on about Christine again. :shrug:That was priceless. :laugh:

To respond to DavidMN's question... I'm definitely a Fleetwood Mac fan, but I make no bones about the fact that I have a preference towards Stevie.

I really don't think there's a Fleetwood Mac fan in existence who doesn't have even the slightest preference towards one of the members over the others. It's only natural.
For example, did anyone really love ALL of the Beatles equally?

So, for my tastes, they're best with Stevie... but I love and respect all the incarnations of the band (including the Bekka/Billy/Dave lineup), and would rather listen to ANY Fleetwood Mac album from ANY Fleetwood Mac lineup, before listening to most any other band.

[HomerMcvie]

That was priceless. :laugh:

Oh, there's a price, Bri Bri. :rolleyes:

[WildInTheWind]

I am first and foremost a Stevie fan. It was her songs that turned me on to Fleetwood Mac. And I don't listen to any of the other members solo music, just Stevie's. I do like alot of Lindsey's FM songs, I'm not much of a Chris fan. She has a couple that I really love (Think About Me is probably my favorite of hers). I do like some of the pre-S&L stuff, never had any desire to listen to the post S&L so I never have.

[catinthedark]

To respond to DavidMN's question... I'm definitely a Fleetwood Mac fan, but I make no bones about the fact that I have a preference towards Stevie.

I really don't think there's a Fleetwood Mac fan in existence who doesn't have even the slightest preference towards one of the members over the others. It's only natural.
For example, did anyone really love ALL of the Beatles equally?

So, for my tastes, they're best with Stevie... but I love and respect all the incarnations of the band (including the Bekka/Billy/Dave lineup), and would rather listen to ANY Fleetwood Mac album from ANY Fleetwood Mac lineup, before listening to most any other band.

My answer was going to be almost identical to Johnny's (except for the part about the Bekka line up)... so thanks for saving me the typing! :laugh:

Yeah, I definitely have a stronger love for Stevie, but when you consider how great my love is for Fleetwood Mac (yes, the line up featuring Stevie and Lindsey), I don't think you can argue I'm "dissing" the band in favour of her. My love of Stevie does not diminish my love of Lindsey or Christine or John, or Mick. I have never understood why there are such deep divisions between the camps. We are all entitled to have a favourite artist - for some people, it may not even BE a member of Fleetwood Mac. There are plenty of crazy huge Tori Amos fans around here, for example. Their love of Tori does not in any way threaten my love of Stevie... To each his or her own, I say. Love them, hate them, whatever. But no one's opinion is wrong.

[SteveMacD]

I really enjoy all of the eras of Fleetwood Mac, including the post-1987 incarnations. In fact, I really can't say there's a Fleetwood Mac album I haven't enjoyed. But, I too have noticed various divides. I think there are a lot of pre-1975 fans who equate the "Rumours" band with ABBA-esq sell-out pop. Likewise, there are post-1975 fans who feel that the band's earlier music wasn't as well crafted as the "Rumours" band. And, both groups tend to dump on the post-1987 material as being generic. Then you've got the chiffonheads, the Buckinghamaniacs, and the Green die-hards, all of whom feel that their favorite member is THE reason the band was great.

Personally, I think it's all rubbish. The band has been great in pretty much every incarnation because Mick and John have gone to great lenghts over the years to find people who were talented and fit in with the rest of the band. Sometimes it has been a success, sometimes it hasn't. But, it has always been interesting, moreso than any other band, IMO.

[Johnny Stew]

My answer was going to be almost identical to Johnny's (except for the part about the Bekka line up)... so thanks for saving me the typing! :laugh:Happy to have saved you the typing, Cat! :xoxo:
No love for the 'Time' lineup though? :distress:

I have never understood why there are such deep divisions between the camps.Eh, some fans are still just trying to beat horses that died years ago. :nod:

Christine and Lindsey have quite a number of their own fans who think they hung the moon (or are the be-all and end-all of Fleetwood Mac), just as Stevie does. But double-standards often rule the roost. :shrug:

[SteveMacD]

Christine and Lindsey have quite a number of their own fans who think they hung the moon (or are the be-all and end-all of Fleetwood Mac), just as Stevie does. But double-standards often rule the roost. :shrug:
See, I disagree, at least as far as Christine is concerned. Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs are able to say that they only like the band when so-and-so is in the band. Considering that Christine has been on all but two or three albums, either as a member or session player, it's not so easy to make the distinction between being a Christine fan and a Fleetwood Mac fan. It's almost like somebody saying that they're a Byrds fan, but they only like Roger McGuinn.

[catinthedark]

See, I disagree, at least as far as Christine is concerned. Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs are able to say that they only like the band when so-and-so is in the band. Considering that Christine has been on all but two or three albums, either as a member or session player, it's not so easy to make the distinction between being a Christine fan and a Fleetwood Mac fan. It's almost like somebody saying that they're a Byrds fan, but they only like Roger McGuinn.

But why must we make the distinction at all? That's what I don't get.

Why can't we all just get aloooooong? :laugh: :laugh:

[SteveMacD]

But why must we make the distinction at all? That's what I don't get.
Because there IS a distinction. In fact, you made a distinction when you said you were a Fleetwood Mac fan when Stevie and Lindsey are in the band. That's okay, and there's nothing wrong whatsoever about that. However, there is a major distinction there.

Stevie has been in three incarnations of Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey two, and neither has been too far removed from the "Rumours" band. Stevie was in the band with Christine, Lindsey, Billy, and Rick. Lindsey was in the band only with Christine and Stevie. So, when you ask them about Fleetwood Mac, all they think about is the "Rumours" band.

Christine has been a member of nine incarnations of Fleetwood Mac. She has been in the band with Danny, Jeremy, Bob Welch, Dave Walker, Bob Weston, Stevie, Lindsey, Rick, Billy, Bekka, and Dave Mason, as well as doing a lot of session work for Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac. So Christine fans have a much wider frame of reference with regards to Fleetwood Mac, and tend NOT to make the distinction of any particular era. So much so that "Why" from "Mystery To Me," which obviously does not feature Stevie or Lindsey, is often listed as the big favorite amongst Christine fans. So, while Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs can focus on just a small part of Fleetwood Mac's history, Christine fans really don't have that luxury.

[HomerMcvie]

Because there IS a distinction. In fact, you made a distinction when you said you were a Fleetwood Mac fan when Stevie and Lindsey are in the band. That's okay, and there's nothing wrong whatsoever about that. However, there is a major distinction there.

Stevie has been in three incarnations of Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey two, and neither has been too far removed from the "Rumours" band. Stevie was in the band with Christine, Lindsey, Billy, and Rick. Lindsey was in the band only with Christine and Stevie. So, when you ask them about Fleetwood Mac, all they think about is the "Rumours" band.

Christine has been a member of nine incarnations of Fleetwood Mac. She has been in the band with Danny, Jeremy, Bob Welch, Dave Walker, Bob Weston, Stevie, Lindsey, Rick, Billy, Bekka, and Dave Mason, as well as doing a lot of session work for Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac. So Christine fans have a much wider frame of reference with regards to Fleetwood Mac, and tend NOT to make the distinction of any particular era. So much so that "Why" from "Mystery To Me," which obviously does not feature Stevie or Lindsey, is often listed as the big favorite amongst Christine fans. So, while Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs can focus on just a small part of Fleetwood Mac's history, Christine fans really don't have that luxury.

Very well put. Thanks.

[Johnny Stew]

See, I disagree, at least as far as Christine is concerned. Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs are able to say that they only like the band when so-and-so is in the band. Considering that Christine has been on all but two or three albums, either as a member or session player, it's not so easy to make the distinction between being a Christine fan and a Fleetwood Mac fan. It's almost like somebody saying that they're a Byrds fan, but they only like Roger McGuinn.There's no arguing that that line of thinking ("Fleetwood Mac is only good when so & so is there") is definitely more pervasive in the Lindsey and Stevie fan camps (and even the Peter Green camp, from what I've experienced)... but I've also noticed many Christine fans saying that the lineup on 'Say You Will' and the most recent tour weren't really "Fleetwood Mac" as far as they're concerned, because Chris wasn't there, and, without Chris, Fleetwood Mac is nothing.

So even though there was a Fleetwood Mac before Christine, and one after Christine... they have little use for the band without her.
The number of fans expressing that opinion might be less than those who express the same opinion regarding Lindsey and Stevie, but there is still a faction who feels that way.

They're entitled to that opinion, of course, and I'm not looking to argue the validity of it, pro or con. As I said, we ALL have our favorite member(s), without whom, Fleetwood Mac wouldn't have quite the same appeal for us.
I just think... as I've stated many times in the past... that it's a demonstration of some serious tunnel-vision to accuse the Stevie Fans for feeling that Stevie is the best thing Fleetwood Mac ever had, as if her fans are the only "guilty" party.

We create the deepest divides when we condemn other fans for the same behaviour we're ALL guilty of.

This is a horrible analogy, but it's sort of like the divide within Christianity. Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Protestants, etc.... they all believe in and worship Jesus, and yet, none of them can agree on HOW to worship, and they all think they do it the "right way."
They get lost in the details and lose sight of the bigger picture.

We're all essentially Fleetwood Mac fans here... who cares if some of us like one member/lineup better than the others.
Of course, it does make for some pretty lively debates... but no one should really take that stuff too seriously.

[chiliD]

So when you think about it, the only member of Fleetwood Mac that Christine DIDN'T play together with is Bob Brunning.

Well, and maybe Dave Mason...on Time, he didn't appear on her tracks and she didn't appear on his. But, there are a couple of publicity photos of them together, so who knows if there were some sessions where they did play together.


This is a horrible analogy, but it's sort of like the divide within Christianity. Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Protestants, etc.... they all believe in and worship Jesus, and yet, none of them can agree on HOW to worship, and they all think they do it the "right way."
They get lost in the details and lose sight of the bigger picture.

But, remember, Fleetwood Mac started with St. Peter, St. Michael, & St. John. :angel: :D

And, all three started out in the parrish of Bishop John The Mayall. :lol:

[DavidMn]

Well, I'm glad my post generated such a lively discussion. I was hoping for that. :) Thanks alot everyone

[Serrart]

I'm still kinda new here and trying to feel things out a bit, but one thing I've noticed, both before I joined and since, is that there seems to be a pretty good divide between the fans that like the pre 1975 lineup and post 1975. The same goes for the individual fans of Stevie and Lindsey. I totally respect anyone's opinion on whichever way they choose to go. But here's the way I look at it. Some people call themselves Stevieheads or Lindseyheads, some prefer the older lineup or the newer. For myself, I would have to say I'm a Fleetwood Mac head. I very much enjoy both the older and newer linups. not so much the Bekka and Dave years, and ad far aas Billy and Rick go, they're very good, just not quite up to par with Lindsey in my opinion. Anyway, My interest in the other band members, IE, Stevie and Lindsey is an outgrowth of my interest in the band as a whole. And while I very much enjoy seeing Stevie solo, and would enjoy seeing Lindsey solo, (Never have on that one) I would always choose to see them with Fleetwood Mac first. I'm curious to see what other people think about this. I will enjoy reading the responses.


DavidMn

"And He Was Just Like A Great Dark Wing...."

I have a preference towards Stevie, but I'm equally a FM Fan. And when she is with them my vision of her changes as her attitude and the style of her songs also change. As a songwriter she sends different inputs with FM and solo and I love them both. Though when she's in the band I totally see her as one of four elements (five with Chris). I'll go to see FM (hoping to have the chance) wanting to hear live the music they make together, not to focus only on her.
Then if you ask me about solo acts and albums is a totally different matter. :D


Romy

[SteveMacD]

Well, and maybe Dave Mason...on Time, he didn't appear on her tracks and she didn't appear on his.
I think Dave may have played on "I Do" and Christine on "I Wonder Why," as Michael Thompson is only listed as "additional guitars" on the former, and Steve Thoma "additional keyboards" on the latter. Why would they make that distinction? Also, I think both played on the Bekka & Billy stuff, as the only time Steve Thoma's name appears on any of those songs is on "Winds Of Change" and he was only listed as "additional keyboards" at that. So, I think they did work together on some stuff.

[Johnny Stew]

But, remember, Fleetwood Mac started with St. Peter, St. Michael, & St. John. :angel: :D

And, all three started out in the parrish of Bishop John The Mayall. :lol::laugh:

Amen, Brother Steve!

[lagringader&r]

I make no bones about my preference for Stevie, but it doesn't really take away from my appreciation for everyone else in the band. I think they work off a kind of synergy that makes it all come together for the sound that makes them so unique. I love Stevie's solo work, too, but with FM, it's just different. When Chris was in the band, even if it was one of Stevie's or Lindsey's songs, you could hear the tie-in of the other two songwriters. Same with Chris' songs. Their three part harmonies were obviously to die for. And, while there is such a strong, distinctive sound they have, they're still different enough (from Chris' to Stevie's to Lindsey's songs) that if you don't like one, you might like another. It's like having three bands in one. At the SYW shows I went to last year and year before, I thought that was one of the coolest things. I was mostly watching Stevie, but sometimes I would look over to the other side of the stage to see what Lindsey was doing. If Chris had been there, my eyes would have been all over the place. So, I guess for me, I'm more of a Stevie fan but I respect the fact that FM is a collective effort and what makes it click is the musical chemistry of all five (now four) members. Everybody has their favorite. :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

I think Dave may have played on "I Do" and Christine on "I Wonder Why," as Michael Thompson is only listed as "additional guitars" on the former, and Steve Thoma "additional keyboards" on the latter. Why would they make that distinction? Also, I think both played on the Bekka & Billy stuff, as the only time Steve Thoma's name appears on any of those songs is on "Winds Of Change" and he was only listed as "additional keyboards" at that. So, I think they did work together on some stuff.I could have sworn that in her 1995 AOL chat, Christine said she and Dave didn't play on each other's tracks. I might be wrong though.

She also expressed an incredulousness as to why he was even in the band. She wasn't pulling punches! But then, our Christine never does. :xoxo:

[ontheEdgeof17]

I could have sworn that in her 1995 AOL chat, Christine said she and Dave didn't play on each other's tracks. I might be wrong though.



:nod: :nod: I remember this, too.

[SteveMacD]

(and even the Peter Green camp, from what I've experienced)...
And EVEN the Peter Green camp? More like "and ESPECIALLY the Peter Green camp," because if he's not on it, it has cooties.
but I've also noticed many Christine fans saying that the lineup on 'Say You Will' and the most recent tour weren't really "Fleetwood Mac" as far as they're concerned, because Chris wasn't there, and, without Chris, Fleetwood Mac is nothing.
I don't remember that so much as I remember people being upset that SYW could have been either released as Fleetwood Mac or Buckingham Nicks. With Christine, there was a distinction between the two bands. On SYW, that distinction, for many, became blurred. The fact that Lindsey said in some interviews that the possibility of another Buckingham Nicks album was seriously considered didn't help. I seriously doubt that there would have been the resistance if there had been another singer/songwriter (i.e. Billy Burnette) that would have created the distinction.
So even though there was a Fleetwood Mac before Christine, and one after Christine... they have little use for the band without her.
There may be a few, to be sure. But MOST Christine fans still bought the album and went to the show, and I'd be willing to be that they even own a few Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac albums.
As I said, we ALL have our favorite member(s), without whom, Fleetwood Mac wouldn't have quite the same appeal for us.
Well, my favorite is Mick Fleetwood, and without him, there literally wouldn't be ANY Fleetwood Mac! So, at least I can honestly say that there's no Fleetwood Mac without Mick Fleetwood, and I'd be right 100% of the time. :p :D
I just think... as I've stated many times in the past... that it's a demonstration of some serious tunnel-vision to accuse the Stevie Fans for feeling that Stevie is the best thing Fleetwood Mac ever had, as if her fans are the only "guilty" party.
Well, they're certainly the most outspoken and, from what I've seen, more apt to slander anybody who says otherwise. You should have seen a lot of the comments that Stevie fans made about Bekka Bramlett. Lots of classy remarks like "little hussie" or "tramp" or "trailer trash" or that Stevie should "hire Bekka to be her make-up lady." I remember when it was learned in early 1996 that Stevie and Lindsey were going to record a song for the "Twister" soundtrack, that one Stevie fan in particular said that this was Stevie's revenge on Mick for not letting her use "Silver Springs," only to find out later that Mick played drums on "Twisted." I sent an e-mail telling the guy that Mick was working with Lindsey, so revenge is probably not the motivation. That dude said a lot of nasty things about me personally on the old FM newsgroup about the e-mail, even though he was shown to have been wrong. I personally don't see some of the catty nastiness from fans of other members of Fleetwood Mac that I see with Stevie Nicks' fans. What's sad is the few who are so nasty tend to be the most vocal, which gives Stevie fans a bad name.

[macfan 57]

I could have sworn that in her 1995 AOL chat, Christine said she and Dave didn't play on each other's tracks. I might be wrong though.

She also expressed an incredulousness as to why he was even in the band. She wasn't pulling punches! But then, our Christine never does. :xoxo:

No, she never said that she didn't play on any of Dave's tracks & vice versa. She did DEFINITELY say that she had no idea why he was in the band. I think there have also been rumours about bad blood between Chris & Dave Mason. I don't know if those rumours are true or not. I tend to think the CD booklet may not be quite accurate & that the only tracks she's on are her 5 songs.

[Serrart]

. I personally don't see some of the catty nastiness from fans of other members of Fleetwood Mac that I see with Stevie Nicks' fans. What's sad is the few who are so nasty tend to be the most vocal, which gives Stevie fans a bad name.

Do Stevie fans have a bad name? I never realized that. Maybe we should have badges or something to remind ourselves how bad we are. ;)

Romy

[SteveMacD]

I could have sworn that in her 1995 AOL chat, Christine said she and Dave didn't play on each other's tracks. I might be wrong though.

She also expressed an incredulousness as to why he was even in the band. She wasn't pulling punches! But then, our Christine never does. :xoxo:
I don't remember that she said anything about who played on who's songs, but yes, she wasn't very happy about his presence. Oddly, she never even mentioned Bekka Bramlett. Just remember, Christine and Dave go back even before her Chicken Shack days. Christine was dating Spencer Davis, and the pair discovered Steve Winwood. Mason was a roadie for the Spencer Davis Group, which is how he met Steve Winwood. Winwood and Mason formed Traffic with Jim Capaldi and saxophonist Chris Wood, who was in Christine's first band, Shades of Blue. In any event, Christine obviously sided with Stevie in the Winwood-Mason clash. In any event, I think she wasn't holding back because she had already left the band. If you notice, Mick referrs to Steve Thoma as a member of the band in an AOL chat later that night.

[SteveMacD]

I think there have also been rumours about bad blood between Chris & Dave Mason. I don't know if those rumours are true or not.
Oh, they're true. Given what she said in her chat, and Mason saying that "Time" was going to be her last album "with us," I sensed that, too. So, when I asked her former manager about it, he said, the big problem is that "Dave Mason is an asshole." Dave is an odd personality. I heard some funny stories back when I used to have a Dave Mason website. A friend of Dave's confirmed there were tensions and suggested part of the problem is that Dave still uses the nose candy. This friend also said that part of the reason why "Time" wasn't promoted was Mick Fleetwood and Dave Mason spent over a million just trying to get things to sound right. So, I'm sure there were several things about Dave that rubbed Christine the wrong way.

[SteveMacD]

Do Stevie fans have a bad name? I never realized that. Maybe we should have badges or something to remind ourselves how bad we are. ;)
See, you're proving my point. You're taking comments that I've made out of context, which is something Stevie fans do more than fans of other members. That's the cattiness to which I was referring. I CLEARLY said, and you EVEN quoted, that "What's sad is the few who are so nasty tend to be the most vocal, which gives Stevie fans a bad name." I didn't say that ALL Stevie fans were bad, but that there are a few especially vocal fans who give Stevie fans in general a bad name. Why would I say that was "sad" if I thought all Stevie fans were bad?

[Serrart]

See, you're proving my point. You're taking comments that I've made out of context, which is something Stevie fans do more than fans of other members. That's the cattiness to which I was referring. I CLEARLY said, and you EVEN quoted, that "What's sad is the few who are so nasty tend to be the most vocal, which gives Stevie fans a bad name." I didn't say that ALL Stevie fans were bad, but that there are a few especially vocal fans who give Stevie fans in general a bad name. Why would I say that was "sad" if I thought all Stevie fans were bad?

I was just kidding but you obviously give to this a much more serious meaning than me. I wasn't offended in any way by what you said. I don't think anyone (speaking in general here) can categorize people only because they share similar tastes. I find a bit ridiculous who does so (again, speaking in general). I think we can agree on that.

Romy

[GODDESS6]

i am 1st & formost a stevie fan & have been so glad to be accepted as a chiffonhead & a member of SOTB :lol: ~ when i 1st heard stevie it was on my aunt's buck-nicks lp back in '73 when it came out, then when her & lindsey joined fleetwood mac i heard landslide & i fell in love w/ fm~ i think every member tho has given an equal & phenomenal contribution to fm, starting as early as the 1st line-up of mac until the say you will line-up, i am not a "time" era fan very much, but i do own it & have given it respect enough to have played it many times~ it would take me all day to say why i love stevie most, but i feel i have a pure love of her from the beginning & have stayed w/ her for 32 yrs so far~ does that mean i think she is musically better than the rest, nope :distress: , christine truly sings like a songbird, lindsey is the most underrated guitar player i have ever seen, i mean the man is a genius, john is just so cool & mick, i mean c'mon ya gotta have mick, he is a pioneer that has been around for so long, he deserves his due also~ i love love seeing stevie solo & have the entire show just focus on her, but there is nothing like a fm show, i can't help it, they are awesome, & i wouldn't have missed this fm/stevie ride for the world!!!~

[David]

Some people call themselves Stevieheads or Lindseyheads, some prefer the older lineup or the newer. For myself, I would have to say I'm a Fleetwood Mac head.I'm in love with Stevie & Stevie only.

The others are just . . . there.

About ten years ago, I was bored with all of them. Then about eight years ago, I hated all of them except Dave Walker -- particularly his song "The Derelict." At that time, I spent much of my time each day singing & playing "The Derelict." Not that I myself was a derelict, but the tune insinuated itself into my consciousness like nothing had done since the time I was gone on "Echo Valley 2-6809" by the Partridge Family. Here we are, five years later, & I still can't get over how stupid it was for the engineers of the "Sound Magazine" album to have faded so QUICKLY on that track. They give you about NINE SECONDS is all of such beauty the likes of which you haven't heard since you listened to Glenn Gould play the Goldberg Variations or Martha Argerich perform Scarbo.

So anyway, before that, I was a huge fan of Elton John & then Jethro Tull. But I quickly tired of Jethro Tull because I was reared on pop songs, & Tull is a lot of tiresome art-rock pomposity. In fact, it should have been a dead giveaway because it was only Tull's poppier songs -- Rainbow Blues, Bungle in the Jungle, Thick as a Brick -- that I listened to repeatedly.

Christine McVie is a most attractive person, in terms of her physicality, her demeanor, her retenue, her incisiveness, the way she holds her head & her arms, the attractive lilt to her whistle (you can hear her whistle in her Innerview with Jim Ladd from June 1982), & her choice of keyboards. But Christine doesn't want fans, & fans don't complement Christine -- it's like Georgia peaches & cable routers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other: they're an exercise in incommensurates, like certain images & metaphors in the Hebrew Bible -- the J strands, particularly.

[SteveMacD]

I was just kidding but you obviously give to this a much more serious meaning than me. I wasn't offended in any way by what you said. I don't think anyone (speaking in general here) can categorize people only because they share similar tastes. I find a bit ridiculous who does so (again, speaking in general). I think we can agree on that.
Absolutely. BTW, I'm sorry that I didn't pick up on the fact you were kidding. I've had people twist my words when I've said less, so I feel I have to be even more clear about what I'm saying.

[SteveMacD]

I'm in love with Stevie & Stevie only.

The others are just . . . there.

About ten years ago, I was bored with all of them. Then about eight years ago, I hated all of them except Dave Walker -- particularly his song "The Derelict." At that time, I spent much of my time each day singing & playing "The Derelict." Not that I myself was a derelict, but the tune insinuated itself into my consciousness like nothing had done since the time I was gone on "Echo Valley 2-6809" by the Partridge Family. Here we are, five years later, & I still can't get over how stupid it was for the engineers of the "Sound Magazine" album to have faded so QUICKLY on that track. They give you about NINE SECONDS is all of such beauty the likes of which you haven't heard since you listened to Glenn Gould play the Goldberg Variations or Martha Argerich perform Scarbo.

So anyway, before that, I was a huge fan of Elton John & then Jethro Tull. But I quickly tired of Jethro Tull because I was reared on pop songs, & Tull is a lot of tiresome art-rock pomposity. In fact, it should have been a dead giveaway because it was only Tull's poppier songs -- Rainbow Blues, Bungle in the Jungle, Thick as a Brick -- that I listened to repeatedly.

Christine McVie is a most attractive person, in terms of her physicality, her demeanor, her retenue, her incisiveness, the way she holds her head & her arms, the attractive lilt to her whistle (you can hear her whistle in her Innerview with Jim Ladd from June 1982), & her choice of keyboards. But Christine doesn't want fans, & fans don't complement Christine -- it's like Georgia peaches & cable routers. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other: they're an exercise in incommensurates, like certain images & metaphors in the Hebrew Bible -- the J strands, particularly.

Alright, A Glenn Gould reference! And, just for that, here's a picture of the CBC headquarters in Toronto, where the Glenn Gould studio is located.
http://goodhosting.ca/filtv/america/images/toronto/toronto7.jpg

And, here's a picture of some guy sitting next to the statue of Glenn Gould located right outside of the above building.
http://www.intradabrass.ca/content/Galleries/IntradaGallery/images/Doug_and_friend.jpg

[wondergirl9847]

I am a Lindsey Buckingham fan first and foremost, because he was the one who captured my attention (and heart) when I was in a very dark place. Then, I found out he was in this band....and I checked into that. I was hooked. I like most lineups okay and some I adore. I'm not a huge Christine fan, but she's cool with me. I love and adore Lindsey, Stevie and Danny the most. They are the tops for me. :thumbsup:

I have to admit, if Lindsey hadn't been on the SYW tour, I would not have gone to as many, if any, concerts. He is pretty much, the be all and end all for me in regards to the Mac. I ain't apologizin' for it, either. UNLESS Danny Kirwan came back into the fold, then I'd most def have gone. :nod:

Competition? What competition?

Oh and BTW, Lindsey Rules. :D

[Johnny Stew]

Well, they're certainly the most outspoken and, from what I've seen, more apt to slander anybody who says otherwise.

I personally don't see some of the catty nastiness from fans of other members of Fleetwood Mac that I see with Stevie Nicks' fans. What's sad is the few who are so nasty tend to be the most vocal, which gives Stevie fans a bad name.I've certainly witnessed and experienced "catty nastiness" from other Mac-related fan factions, so I can attest to the fact that it exists. Which is why I always say that Stevie Fans get a bum rap in the fan community, as there are other equally guilty parties.

The majority of us are intelligent, articulate, discerning and quite civil. But we still encounter more than a little of that "oh, you're a mindless Chiffonhead -- your opinion means nothing" hooey. Which, to me, is "catty nastiness" at its finest.

As you admitted, we're stereotyped by the reprehensible behaviour of a mere few... but unfortunately we're all stuck trying to live it down (or to just "live with it") because others in the fan community refuse to let anything go.

[SteveMacD]

I've certainly witnessed and experienced "catty nastiness" from other Mac-related fan factions, so I can attest to the fact that it exists. Which is why I always say that Stevie Fans get a bum rap in the fan community, as there are other equally guilty parties.
The percentage may be the same, but the actual number is more, only because Stevie obviously has more fans. Thus, it is much more noticable. Personally, I don't have an issue with most Stevie fans. Since I consider myself a Fleetwood Mac fan above all else, I would obviously also be a fan of Stevie.
As you admitted, we're stereotyped by the reprehensible behaviour of a mere few... but unfortunately we're all stuck trying to live it down (or to just "live with it") because others in the fan community refuse to let anything go.
Well, that works both ways, too. I mean, I still see a lot of the same patterns of behaviors by certain fans after ten years. For example, if one makes the slightest, though valid, criticism of Stevie, look at how many people come to her defense. I haven't seen the same with fans of others in the Mac. The ferocity to which people come to Stevie's defense is both amazing and scarey.

[mylittledemon]

I myself prefer the 1975-1987, 1997-current era material but I aint knocking any of the other versions of the band. Some of the pre-1975 stuff is great, and some of the 1988-1991 stuff is ok. The era that I really just cringe at (and its just personal preference) is the Bekka era mess.

[Johnny Stew]

Well, that works both ways, too. I mean, I still see a lot of the same patterns of behaviors by certain fans after ten years. For example, if one makes the slightest, though valid, criticism of Stevie, look at how many people come to her defense. I haven't seen the same with fans of others in the Mac. The ferocity to which people come to Stevie's defense is both amazing and scarey.I hate to do it, but I disagree on that one, too.

Of course, Stevie fans will pipe up to defend her when she's criticized. Fans do tend to do that. But, pay close attention... Lindsey's fans do it, too. As do Christine's fans.

Go back and check out the threads regarding the 'Destiny Rules' doc, for example, discussing what many felt to be childish behaviour on Lindsey's part. The hue and cry from his fans was quite loud and aggressive.

Criticize someone's favorite singer/writer/actor/Power Ranger and folks are going to defend them. :nod:

[CreepingDeath]

Criticize someone's favorite singer/writer/actor/Power Ranger and folks are going to defend them. :nod:

Well, the Power Ranger debate is useless. Everybody knows that Kimberly, the pink ranger is the best. :rolleyes:

[Johnny Stew]

Well, the Power Ranger debate is useless. Everybody knows that Kimberly, the pink ranger is the best. :rolleyes:Oh, NOT EVEN.
Jason, the RED RANGER, was the best! Without him, Kimberly would have been nothing! A powerless waitress, in fact!

So, nyah! :p

[SteveMacD]

Go back and check out the threads regarding the 'Destiny Rules' doc, for example, discussing what many felt to be childish behaviour on Lindsey's part. The hue and cry from his fans was quite loud and aggressive.

Criticize someone's favorite singer/writer/actor/Power Ranger and folks are going to defend them. :nod:
I wasn't posting in here all that much when Destiny Rules came out, so I missed it. I bet that was funny, because I agree that Lindsey was acting childish. Still, I guess I find all of it to be funny. I'm totally being serious when I say Mick is my favorite member of the band, so I really don't have a favorite singer/songwriter per se. Now, look at all the **** he catches on this board. I could say something, but sometimes the criticisms are valid. I guess I just don't get the whole "somebody said something bad about _________...I need to come to _________'s denfese."

[amber]

The percentage may be the same, but the actual number is more, only because Stevie obviously has more fans. Thus, it is much more noticable. Personally, I don't have an issue with most Stevie fans. Since I consider myself a Fleetwood Mac fan above all else, I would obviously also be a fan of Stevie.

Well, that works both ways, too. I mean, I still see a lot of the same patterns of behaviors by certain fans after ten years. For example, if one makes the slightest, though valid, criticism of Stevie, look at how many people come to her defense. I haven't seen the same with fans of others in the Mac. The ferocity to which people come to Stevie's defense is both amazing and scarey.
Well,...and you know I had to start it this way....I agree with Johnny, but...I think part of that is
A) Stevie is weird. She writes the kind of things that touch people in close, emotional ways, and she writes about weird, subtle sh**. So, if you don't get the weird sh** she is talking about, and other people do, they will have to say "but that song totally makes sense! To me! On that one day! :lol: "
B) Also, I think that sometimes people critisize Stevie for something that makes her both sublime and heinous - her bizarre, otherworldly, non technically proficient lyrics and vocalizations - they are her greatest weaknesses and her greatest strengths, but only sometimes the same ones for any one person. :shrug:
C)I've seen some very serious Lindsey defense. Extremely serious. Throw down the gloves and fight serious.
D) Some people judge Stevie on how she looks/moves. That's fine, it's a part of Stevieness. I submit - she was so electric at some times, that people are (understandably) disappointed at anything less. Which actually includes her vocals, as well.
E) She has a bunch, tons, of star power. She's electric. She has "It". that doesn't mean everyone likes her, but you can bet, those who do, love her, because that is what she inspires.
F) I see Stevie's flaws. But when she is good, she is so good, that it's astounding.
G) I really love all the other members of FM. I have no doubt in my mind that "Miss Thang" wouldn't be anywhere, or at least not as many places, without them. Lindsey is a Super Genius. Christine is Sublime. And each of them gets extra super points just for being able to make Miss Thang's stuff so much better.
*ahem* I'm done.

[AliP]

In my opinion, I think the fans that love the Rumours Era Fleetwood Mac as a band, make up the smallest group. It's rare that you run across a person that prefers the band as a whole rather than preferring one particular member the most. It's almost impossible not to prefer one member slightly over another, but you hardly find someone who has this slight preference. Usually it's a huge preference for one member over the other.

I've always considered myself one of these "slight" preference fans. My tastes range. I started out loving Christine the most and would only listen to her songs. Then I started to like Lindsey and then eventually Stevie. She had to grow on me. So eventually everything meshed together for me and as goes those three my preference for one over the other is very very small. I can say that I like them almost equally. And I even love John and Mick (yes, I know alot of people don't like Mick). But it's the group Fleewood Mac is the be all and end all for me.

[DavidMn]

I've certainly witnessed and experienced "catty nastiness" from other Mac-related fan factions, so I can attest to the fact that it exists. Which is why I always say that Stevie Fans get a bum rap in the fan community, as there are other equally guilty parties.

The majority of us are intelligent, articulate, discerning and quite civil. But we still encounter more than a little of that "oh, you're a mindless Chiffonhead -- your opinion means nothing" hooey. Which, to me, is "catty nastiness" at its finest.

As you admitted, we're stereotyped by the reprehensible behaviour of a mere few... but unfortunately we're all stuck trying to live it down (or to just "live with it") because others in the fan community refuse to let anything go.
Exactly. That's why I get tired of some of these boards and chatrooms is because there are some, not all, people that believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. I believe in civility, and respecting others opinions. :laugh:

[SteveMacD]

C)I've seen some very serious Lindsey defense. Extremely serious. Throw down the gloves and fight serious.
The only time I've ever seen it, though mind you I really don't go on the Lindsey board all that much, was back when I was on AOL many, many moons ago. The debate was over who was the better guitarist: Buckingham or Green. I said that it depended on how you measured good guitar playing. If you go by soloing, then Peter gets the nod. If you go by fingerstyle, then Lindsey gets the nod. But he kept insisting that ALL of Lindsey's solos were better than Peter's. He didn't care that Peter is almost always given higher marks amongst guitar players. So yes, it does exist.
D) Some people judge Stevie on how she looks/moves. That's fine, it's a part of Stevieness. I submit - she was so electric at some times, that people are (understandably) disappointed at anything less. Which actually includes her vocals, as well.
I too have seen that criticism. I really didn't have so much an issue with her weight or her vocals as I did her lack of energy. Not knowing what she was going through, it appeared at the time that she was just going through the motions, which may have been all she had the energy to do. Still, it put me off a bit. While I do bring up her weight when I discuss her low point, I do so knowing that even Stevie acknowledges that it was her low point. I don't say anything she hasn't said herself AND I only do it to show how far she's come from that point.

[macfan 57]

In my opinion, I think the fans that love the Rumours Era Fleetwood Mac as a band, make up the smallest group. It's rare that you run across a person that prefers the band as a whole rather than preferring one particular member the most. It's almost impossible not to prefer one member slightly over another, but you hardly find someone who has this slight preference. Usually it's a huge preference for one member over the other.

I completely agree with that. :nod: I've been coming to the Ledge for nearly 4 years now & I think I know of only 1 person who has no preference regarding all 16 members of Fleetwood Mac, a true Fleetwood Mac fan. Me? I've always preferred Christine McVie, for nearly 30 years. And, that's never going to change.

[Nico]

I kind of agree with whoever said that it's rare to find more people preferring the band instead of having an individual favorite member. Like if you go into a Beatles forum, you'll notice immediately the divide among favorite members. In many cases, the most adoration will go to John, sometimes Paul (though that number is often very close to John), and more and more frequently as of late a growing George fanbase. (Ringo, sadly, doesn't really rate here).

Regarding Fleetwood Mac for me, I have to say I am totally, totally a Lindsey fan. I just love his music so much. He is the only reason I got so interested in Fleetwood Mac to begin with. My boyfriend bought me the "Tusk" album and I loved everything by Lindsey on it. Then I saw the Soundstage show on PBS and he amazed me and I bought the DVD and I got into his solo stuff and, well, he is head and shoulders above any of the other members for me.

But I do love Stevie as well. I actually got into Stevie in the midst of getting into Lindsey, so I have her "Enchanted" box and all her solo music...I like them a great deal (except for maybe one or two albums). Christine I love in FM but am not really that crazy about solo. I think I should give her stuff a little more time, though.

And I've heard a few things from the earliest FM and LOVE it. My dad played it for me. But still...I love Fleetwood Mac the most when Lindsey is in it. I can't deny that. He is the most important member for me. :nod:

[GateandGarden]

I started out as a chiffonhead and I'll probably always be a chiffonhead, especially since much of Stevie's solo material got me through the horrifying experience of coming out of the closet (including the song I use as my username) but since my initial Stevie obsession I've moved on to other members and then other eras and I really can't imagine living without any era at this point. Even so, I have my favorites in each incarnation--Christine, Lindsey, Bob Welch, Danny Kirwan, Bekka, and of course Peter.

In reference to the cattiness and inevitable debates...I have to make a confession. It really gets on my nerves when people are unwilling to even try listening to the other incarnations of the band besides the Rumours one. I don't think one can call him or herself a true Fleetwood Mac fan if he or she has no appreciation for the band's beginnings at least. Flame away. :)

[Johnny Stew]

In reference to the cattiness and inevitable debates...I have to make a confession. It really gets on my nerves when people are unwilling to even try listening to the other incarnations of the band besides the Rumours one. I don't think one can call him or herself a true Fleetwood Mac fan if he or she has no appreciation for the band's beginnings at least. Flame away. :)No flames here... I totally agree.
Favorite member or no favorite member, to just focus on one era in Fleetwood Mac's career, is like reading only a couple chapters in a huge novel.
Can't really declare it to be your favorite book without reading the full story. But once you do, then you can decide which passage you like best. :nod:

[Miss Vicky]

As others have said, it's natural for someone to be a fan of a particular band, but have a distinct preference for one member over the others. In most cases, fans tend to prefer the lead singer. In the case of Fleetwood Mac, there isn't <i>a lead singer</i>, there are several. This seems to lead to more division amongst fans of this band than is seen in fans of most other groups.

As for me, I used to really consider myself a Fleetwood Mac fan, and even (gasp) a Stevie Nicks fan (her collaborations with Tom Petty initially drew me to her music and then to FM). As time has gone by, for one reason or another, I've either lost interest in or come to genuinely dislike the majority of the band's members. Although I still enjoy most of the music, the only members of the band that I listen to with any regularity are Lindsey Buckingham (of course) and Billy Burnette and it is a rare occasion indeed when an actual Fleetwood Mac album gets a spin in my stereo.

Edit: To anyone who is of the mind that CM fans aren't as rabid in their defense of her as Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs, I disagree. In one of my earliest posts as a Ledgie, I made the statment that I wasn't heartbroken over her departure from the band and gave my reasons for it - none of which in any way disrespected her as an artist. As it happened, the thread was on the CM forum and the Ledgies there essentially told me to "get the hell out" (not in those words, but with that meaning). It wasn't exactly a great first impression for me and I nearly reconsidered posting here at all.

[glitter_fades]

I kind of agree with whoever said that it's rare to find more people preferring the band instead of having an individual favorite member.

Good thing the millions of fans who'd contradict this rubbish in a heartbeat are not spending all their time on internet fan boards. That many people laughing simultaneously around world could present too much opportunity for a terrorist attack. :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

Edit: To anyone who is of the mind that CM fans aren't as rabid in their defense of her as Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs, I disagree. In one of my earliest posts as a Ledgie, I made the statment that I wasn't heartbroken over her departure from the band and gave my reasons for it - none of which in any way disrespected her as an artist. As it happened, the thread was on the CM forum and the Ledgies there essentially told me to "get the hell out" (not in those words, but with that meaning). It wasn't exactly a great first impression for me and I nearly reconsidered posting here at all.I remember that. :( I think it's mostly a backlash, a response to the many rabid Stevie fans and a feeling that Christine's left in the "gold dust" and that's just not right to those who love her. But I'm explaining what it is my view, not justifying it. I'm really sorry that that happened to you. :(

[strandinthewind]

Good thing the millions of fans who'd contradict this rubbish in a heartbeat are not spending all their time on internet fan boards. That many people laughing simultaneously around world could present too much opportunity for a terrorist attack. :laugh:

Now there you go again :laugh:

[Miss Vicky]

I remember that. :( I think it's mostly a backlash, a response to the many rabid Stevie fans and a feeling that Christine's left in the "gold dust" and that's just not right to those who love her. But I'm explaining what it is my view, not justifying it. I'm really sorry that that happened to you. :(

It's okay. Obviously it wasn't quite enough to drive me away (much to the chagrin of some people, I'm sure ;) ). I'm not really bitter about it, but I felt I should point out that no "camp" here is innocent.

[HomerMcvie]

I remember that. :( I think it's mostly a backlash, a response to the many rabid Stevie fans and a feeling that Christine's left in the "gold dust" and that's just not right to those who love her. But I'm explaining what it is my view, not justifying it. I'm really sorry that that happened to you. :(
I do think it IS a backlash. We Chris fans get so tired of her being underappreciated, that we do defend her, ESPECIALLY in HER own forum.

And Hillary, your new avatar is FREAKING me out!!!! Ewwwwww! What is this obsession you have with hearts? Ewwwwwwww!

[WelshWitchPMD]

I am a fan mostly of the Rumours era line-up. I am a ChiffonBuckingHead or maybe a BuckingChiffoniac! :laugh: Whatever it is called I enjoy Lindsey and Stevie the most. It doesn't mean that I hate or dislike anyone else in the band because I don't. I feel a real connection to Mick, John and Chirstine but I have an even stronger connection to SN and LB.

Would I go to see Peter Green or Rick Vito if they did a tour someplace near my area? Sure I would! Would I follow them around the USA like I would for say Lindsey? Most likely I would say no right now but to be honest I have never seen either solo so after I did then maybe I would say yes. :shrug:
I would love to see just about anyone that was a member of The Mac or worked with a member at a live show. I guess that would make me a Mac fan.
However, what member of the Mac am I anxiously awaiting to release a solo album and a solo tour??? Anybody have any idea? :laugh: HINT: Check out my signature. :p

[GateandGarden]

I do think it IS a backlash. We Chris fans get so tired of her being underappreciated, that we do defend her, ESPECIALLY in HER own forum.It hurts me too when Christine doesn't get enough love. I still don't see the need to criticize others to prove my point, but we've been through that. ;) Besides, your critcism of and ramblings about you-know-who are often really amusing anyway! :laugh:

And Hillary, your new avatar is FREAKING me out!!!! Ewwwwww! What is this obsession you have with hearts? Ewwwwwwww!The heart is only an incredibly amazing, inspiring, miraculous, mysterious and often misunderstood muscle with four valves that produce the most euphonious, soothing, uplifting music I know. And each one is unique to the person in whom it resides. *sighs* :)

[HomerMcvie]

It hurts me too when Christine doesn't get enough love. I still don't see the need to criticize others to prove my point, but we've been through that. ;) Besides, your critcism of and ramblings about you-know-who are often really amusing anyway! :laugh:
I dislike the army much more than their commander. Ruffling their collective feathers gives me such joy. :lol:


The heart is only an incredibly amazing, inspiring, miraculous, mysterious and often misunderstood muscle with four valves that produce the most euphonious, soothing, uplifting music I know. And each one is unique to the person in whom it resides. *sighs* :)

Yeah, but it's still blood and guts. Ewwwww. And you're still freaking me out!
:lol: :xoxo:

[AliP]

Good thing the millions of fans who'd contradict this rubbish in a heartbeat are not spending all their time on internet fan boards. That many people laughing simultaneously around world could present too much opportunity for a terrorist attack. :laugh:

huh? :shrug:

[Miss Vicky]

I do think it IS a backlash. We Chris fans get so tired of her being underappreciated, that we do defend her, ESPECIALLY in HER own forum.

And Hillary, your new avatar is FREAKING me out!!!! Ewwwwww! What is this obsession you have with hearts? Ewwwwwwww!

In the instance I was discussing, there was nothing to defend, since I didn't say anything derogatory about CM or her work. Yet, I was still attacked.

Also, last I checked it isn't <i>her</i> forum. It is a forum on the Ledge for <i>all Ledgies</i> to discuss her work, not just the ones who rabidly support her.

[GateandGarden]

In the instance I was discussing, there was nothing to defend, since I didn't say anything derogatory about CM or her work. Yet, I was still attacked.I haven't looked at the thread in awhile so I don't know anything verbatim, but I remember that you just said you didn't really care for her music that much, and I couldn't find anything offensive about that. :shrug: Besides, we're supposed to be able to express our opinions on The Ledge. So I agree that no one really needed to defend Christine to you. I think it was unnecessary.

Also, last I checked it isn't <i>her</i> forum. It is a forum on the Ledge for <i>all Ledgies</i> to discuss her work, not just the ones who rabidly support her.I agree with you on that, too.

[GateandGarden]

Yeah, but it's still blood and guts. Ewwwww. And you're still freaking me out!
:lol: :xoxo:Guts? I don't see guts in my picture. I don't see blood either, but there's certainly an implication that it would be there. :laugh: Even so, I'm fond of blood as long as it stays inside people. Frankly, even I get queasy when I have to see it coming out. That's another issue. You don't like to listen to and feel your dog's heartbeat? :)

[GateandGarden]

huh? :shrug:That was my reaction to that post, too. :shrug:

[amber]

In the instance I was discussing, there was nothing to defend, since I didn't say anything derogatory about CM or her work. Yet, I was still attacked.

Also, last I checked it isn't <i>her</i> forum. It is a forum on the Ledge for <i>all Ledgies</i> to discuss her work, not just the ones who rabidly support her.
Ha, that happened to me, too. Homie! :laugh: Good point, BTW.

[HomerMcvie]

A forum with the TITLE Christine McVie isn't her forum? I mean she doesn't own it, but....
Whatever. (goes off grumbling about stupid ppl) :D

[HomerMcvie]

Guts? I don't see guts in my picture. I don't see blood either, but there's certainly an implication that it would be there. :laugh: Even so, I'm fond of blood as long as it stays inside people. Frankly, even I get queasy when I have to see it coming out. That's another issue. You don't like to listen to and feel your dog's heartbeat? :)
No, I don't. I reminds me of his mortality.
I prefer anything intended to be internal, to stay internal, and not give me bad dreams. :rolleyes:

[GateandGarden]

No, I don't. I reminds me of his mortality.I think that debate might be a "glass half full or half empty" one. I see listening to a beating heart as a way of celebrating life.

I prefer anything intended to be internal, to stay internal, and not give me bad dreams. :rolleyes:That I cannot argue with at all. Notice I don't have a photo of a real heart that was taken out of someone. Not my thing at all.

[HomerMcvie]

That I cannot argue with at all. Notice I don't have a photo of a real heart that was taken out of someone. Not my thing at all.

Ghoul! :eek: :lol: :lol: :rolleyes:

[Nico]

Good thing the millions of fans who'd contradict this rubbish in a heartbeat are not spending all their time on internet fan boards. That many people laughing simultaneously around world could present too much opportunity for a terrorist attack. :laugh:

Ummm...I'm confused. Perhaps you misread what I meant, or maybe it's some kind of inside sarcasm I'm not really familiar with. In any case, you got me. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

Ummm...I'm confused. Perhaps you misread what I meant, or maybe it's some kind of inside sarcasm I'm not really familiar with. In any case, you got me. :shrug:Got me, too. :shrug:

[shackin'up]

Well, I'm a Fleetwood Mac fan. I would never have flown into the States to see a soloshow.

But as a solo-artist I think Lindsey made the most interesting music of all of them. And after Lindsey things were artisticly very poor imo.

Still LOVE all Mac-albums between 68 and 83 ....and from 97 till now.

[Miss Vicky]

A forum with the TITLE Christine McVie isn't her forum? I mean she doesn't own it, but....
Whatever. (goes off grumbling about stupid ppl) :D

You've missed my point entirely, as usual. Yet I'm the stupid one?

[golddustwoman77]

I would have to say that I'm a fan of the band, first and foremost. I was a Fleetwood Mac fan, before there was Stevie solo projects, Lindsey solo projects, or Christine solo projects, etc. The "Rumours" era line up is what brought me in to the band and made me the huge fan that I am today, but because of the "Rumours" lineup I listened to and became a fan of the pre-Buckingham Nicks era as well. It is amazing stuff and was the base for that the band has always been---frickin' kick @ss!!!!!!!! Also, that is why I became a fan of Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine's solo projects. I don't know how you can be a huge Fleetwood Mac fan and not appreciate all of the members; I mean the "Fleetwood Mac Sound" comes from all its parts: Stevie, Lindsey, Christine, John, Mick, Peter, etc. Therefore, I guess there isn't a label that you can pin on me. :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

You've missed my point entirely, as usual. Yet I'm the stupid one?
Did I stutter? Perhaps I could find your point with a fine toothed comb. :thumbsup: (btw, I'm am currently laughing my ass off on THIS gem!)
I felt you were disrespectful, and I stand by that opinion. Too bad if you don't like my opinion.

[Miss Vicky]

Did I stutter? Perhaps I could find your point with a fine toothed comb. :thumbsup: (btw, I'm am currently laughing my ass off on THIS gem!)
I felt you were disrespectful, and I stand by that opinion. Too bad if you don't like my opinion.

BTW - You seem to be the only one having trouble finding the point of my post. Therefore, I am currently laughing my ass off. And you are the expert on disrespect.

[HomerMcvie]

BTW - You seem to be the only one having trouble finding the point of my post. Therefore, I am currently laughing my ass off. And you are the expert on disrespect.
Just be careful and not laugh yourself away. Again, I felt you were being disrespectful, and I called you on it. Just my opinion. :p

[Miss Vicky]

Just be careful and not laugh yourself away. Again, I felt you were being disrespectful, and I called you on it. Just my opinion. :p

And, in my opinion, you have been completely rude and disrespectful. It's quite high and mighty of you to accuse me of disrespect while at the same time calling me "stupid."

Hypocrite.

[HomerMcvie]

And, in my opinion, you have been completely rude and disrespectful. It's quite high and mighty of you to accuse me of disrespect while at the same time calling me "stupid."

Hypocrite.

In the instance I was discussing, there was nothing to defend, since I didn't say anything derogatory about CM or her work.
You said Chris' forum wasn't Chris' forum, and, in the old post to which we're referring, something to the effect that you weren't sorry to see Christine leave FM, and you didn't care for her music anyway. "I" found THAT to be a little derogatory, especially in Chris' forum.
Get over it. Yada, yada, yada.....blah, blah, blah.....
Goodnight, sweet one.

[Miss Vicky]

You said Chris' forum wasn't Chris' forum, and, in the old post to which we're referring, something to the effect that you weren't sorry to see Christine leave FM, and you didn't care for her music anyway. "I" found THAT to be a little derogatory, especially in Chris' forum.
Get over it. Yada, yada, yada.....blah, blah, blah.....
Goodnight, sweet one.

Yes, the Christine McVie forum isn't Christine McVie's forum. It is a forum for ALL LEDGIES (be they Christine McVie fans or not) to discuss her work. I don't know how to put it in simpler English for you to understand. (And no one else seems to be having difficulty comprehending my words.)

Likewise, the Lindsey Buckingham forum isn’t Lindsey Buckingham’s forum. It is a place for all Ledgies to discuss his work, whether they are fans of his or not. I would find it neither disrespectful nor out of place for a Ledgie to express a dislike for any or all of his work as long as he or she provided their reasons. They could also say that they “were less than heartbroken when they learned he had left the band.” Being a Buckingham fan, I wouldn’t like such a statement, but I wouldn’t jump the ass of the Ledgie who made it nor accuse him or her of being “happy he was gone.”

P.S. My original post?

“I'm going to risk the wrath of other ledgies here and say that I was less than heartbroken when I learned that Christine had left the band (and indeed she HAS left the band which she has stated herself). Her leaving allowed the dynamic and musical focus of the band to change, for the better if you ask me. Their music is harder, faster, more rocking: Much more guitar and bass driven than piano driven, with less focus on vocal harmonies and more focus on the individual singers.
Most importantly for me, it has allowed Lindsey to not only take a larger share of the album space, but to use songs that might not have worked in the old situation. Had there been a stronger feminine influence in the band, I just don't think that a song such as "Come" or even "Murrow" would have made the cut. As it was Stevie tried to keep "Come" off the album and off the tour.
As much as I like most of Christine's work and the work that Fleetwood Mac has done with her, I think that the songs that make up Say You Will are some of the best that Lindsey and Stevie have produced - as part of FM or solo - in a very long time.”

Exactly where in that did I say that “I didn’t care for her music anyway”?

[HomerMcvie]

Yes, the Christine McVie forum isn't Christine McVie's forum. It is a forum for ALL LEDGIES (be they Christine McVie fans or not) to discuss her work. I don't know how to put it in simpler English for you to understand. (And no one else seems to be having difficulty comprehending my words.)

Likewise, the Lindsey Buckingham forum isn’t Lindsey Buckingham’s forum. It is a place for all Ledgies to discuss his work, whether they are fans of his or not. I would find it neither disrespectful nor out of place for a Ledgie to express a dislike for any or all of his work as long as he or she provided their reasons. They could also say that they “were less than heartbroken when they learned he had left the band.” Being a Buckingham fan, I wouldn’t like such a statement, but I wouldn’t jump the ass of the Ledgie who made it nor accuse him or her of being “happy he was gone.”

P.S. My original post?

“I'm going to risk the wrath of other ledgies here and say that I was less than heartbroken when I learned that Christine had left the band (and indeed she HAS left the band which she has stated herself). Her leaving allowed the dynamic and musical focus of the band to change, for the better if you ask me. Their music is harder, faster, more rocking: Much more guitar and bass driven than piano driven, with less focus on vocal harmonies and more focus on the individual singers.
Most importantly for me, it has allowed Lindsey to not only take a larger share of the album space, but to use songs that might not have worked in the old situation. Had there been a stronger feminine influence in the band, I just don't think that a song such as "Come" or even "Murrow" would have made the cut. As it was Stevie tried to keep "Come" off the album and off the tour.
As much as I like most of Christine's work and the work that Fleetwood Mac has done with her, I think that the songs that make up Say You Will are some of the best that Lindsey and Stevie have produced - as part of FM or solo - in a very long time.”

Exactly where in that did I say that “I didn’t care for her music anyway”?

I didn't care enough to research the original post, and SO I said "something to the effect". I'm tired of you now, you're like a bad toothache. Goodnight. :woohoo:

[HomerMcvie]

Having an opinion and taste in music is derogatory? I too am most grateful that Lindsey's contribution to the SYW album was not reduced to one third and that his tracks were not replaced by music that has a high chance of boring me.
Ah, birds of a feather... :rolleyes:

[Miss Vicky]

I didn't care enough to research the original post, and SO I said "something to the effect". I'm tired of you now, you're like a bad toothache. Goodnight. :woohoo:

All I'm asking is where did I say or imply that? You, Mr. Holier-Than-Thou-Art, can't seem to produce an answer yet insist on calling me names and accusing me of disrespect.

As for you being tired of me... if you keep replying to my posts I'll keep replying back until I get an answer to the above question. If you want it to stop, either answer my question or stop replying. It's as simple as that.

[SteveMacD]

All I'm asking is where did I say or imply that?

Well, I'm not speaking for Homer BUT...

"I was less than heartbroken when I learned that Christine had left the band...Her leaving allowed the dynamic and musical focus of the band to change, for the better if you ask me" is a good implication.

What I find funny is that you even preface your initial post with “I'm going to risk the wrath of other ledgies here" and then you seem shocked that Homer gave you a little wrath.

Yes, the Christine McVie forum isn't Christine McVie's forum. It is a forum for ALL LEDGIES (be they Christine McVie fans or not) to discuss her work. I don't know how to put it in simpler English for you to understand. (And no one else seems to be having difficulty comprehending my words.)
I completely understand your words. Still, one wouldn't go on the Stevie board and talk about how glad he or she was that Stevie wasn't on "Time" OR on the Lindsey forum and talk about how glad he or she was that Lindsey wasn't on "Behind The Mask" and that the dynamic improved because of the abscence for crying out loud. The whole point of the Christine forum is to discuss Christine's music. That, and to gush all over Christine.

[GateandGarden]

I completely understand your words. Still, one wouldn't go on the Stevie board and talk about how glad he or she was that Stevie wasn't on "Time" OR on the Lindsey forum and talk about how glad he or she was that Lindsey wasn't on "Behind The Mask" and that the dynamic improved because of the abscence for crying out loud. The whole point of the Christine forum is to discuss Christine's music. That, and to gush all over Christine.I disagree. People go onto Stevie forums and diss her without any hesitance. Perhaps Time doesn't come up but that's only because of the fact that so many fans have never heard it. If people weren't allowed to criticize Stevie frequently in that forum then a good percentage of the threads and posts would have been deleted by now. I don't think the Christine forum should be exclusively for people who adore her, either. It really sounds like a double standard.

Besides, what Victoria said was not disrespectful. She expressed her opinion in a way that is anything but disrespectful. She could have said any number of unkind things about Chris' music and she chose not to. I can't believe that she has to defend her right to say what she said. :shrug: I have to say that I respectfully disagree with Homie in this case.

[little_lune]

I am a self confessed lurker and it takes a lot to get me to post. However the attitude of HomerMcVie in this thread has managed to pull me out of lurkerdom due to my complete disgust at his (I'm presuming, 'his,' however possibly her...) condescending and utterly patronising attitude. If anybody is expressing their opinion in a disrespectful way it is most definately you.

Feel free to bash the, 'lurker police,' now ;)

[Kelly]

You said Chris' forum wasn't Chris' forum, and, in the old post to which we're referring, something to the effect that you weren't sorry to see Christine leave FM, and you didn't care for her music anyway. "I" found THAT to be a little derogatory, especially in Chris' forum.
Get over it. Yada, yada, yada.....blah, blah, blah.....
Goodnight, sweet one.


I do not want to get involved in a dispute I have no part of but I am confused about one thing. The forums and what is and is not supposed to be discussed and expressed in them . Take Stevie's forum...which Homie, I know you avoid like the plague...smilie face...people always says derogatory stuff about her there. Others jump to her defense. The forums, IMO, are a place where people can express their opinions, good, bad and ugly, right? Just because it is Christine's Forum...does than mean no one can express anything negative about Chris? Cause if that is the case...Stevie sure takes a beating in the forum entitled "Stevie Nicks". I am just saying differing opinions make the world go around and I thought that was what a message board was for..to discuss our opinions. I am shocked at some of the comments made about Stevie..right in her own forum...I just chalk it up to bad taste! lol
BTW.....I was sad to see Chris go, I missed her on SYW and feel it would have sold much better with the Rumours Five. I am a big fan of Buckingham Nicks but Christine is a part of Fleetwood Mac and Say You will was a FM album...so I missed her vocals, harmonies and songs.

[Miss Vicky]

Well, I'm not speaking for Homer BUT...

"I was less than heartbroken when I learned that Christine had left the band...Her leaving allowed the dynamic and musical focus of the band to change, for the better if you ask me" is a good implication.

What I find funny is that you even preface your initial post with “I'm going to risk the wrath of other ledgies here" and then you seem shocked that Homer gave you a little wrath.


I completely understand your words. Still, one wouldn't go on the Stevie board and talk about how glad he or she was that Stevie wasn't on "Time" OR on the Lindsey forum and talk about how glad he or she was that Lindsey wasn't on "Behind The Mask" and that the dynamic improved because of the abscence for crying out loud. The whole point of the Christine forum is to discuss Christine's music. That, and to gush all over Christine.

I prefaced my post with "I'm going to risk the wrath of other Ledgies" because, although I was rather new to this particular forum, I had been dealing with online FM fans for several years and I know how irrational some fans can get, no matter how something is worded. I wasn't shocked that someone got angry with my post, however I do feel I have every right to get offended when I am called names and told to leave.

Also, as I've said before - there is a HUGE difference between not being heartbroken over the departure of a member and being glad they're gone. So please, please, DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I never said that I was glad she's gone. In fact, if you read the post, what I said was "I like Christine's work and the work that FM has done with her." However, now just as then, certain people choose not to notice that particular statement.

Edit: Also, when I said that the dynamic changed for better - I qualified that statement by expressing my preference for guitar driven music over piano driven music and the emphasis on individual voices over harmonies. That does not equate to an implication that I'm glad she's gone. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my words.

[David]

Edit: Also, when I said that the dynamic changed for better - I qualified that statement by expressing my preference for guitar driven music over piano driven music and the emphasis on individual voices over harmonies. That does not equate to an implication that I'm glad she's gone. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my words.I could probably count the instances on one hand -- two hands at most -- of genuinely piano-driven songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalog. To say that the Mac's music from 2003 on is guitar-driven instead of piano-driven is to confound definitions & concoct facts out of rhetorical stances, a habit I noticed in many of the press writeups of "Say You Will," too.

The fact of the matter is that Christine's piano/keyboards rarely took center stage in the band's music on album, & even more rarely did so on the concert stage. Actually, "Say You Will" contains a lot more keyboard & synth hardware on it than many, many older Fleetwood Mac albums. Christine's absence means absolutely nothing in terms of keyboard & synth use or overuse: tracks like "Everybody Finds Out," "Goodbye Baby," "Illume," "Say You Will," "Peacekeeper," "Smile at You," "Running Through the Garden," "Silver Girl" & "Destiny Rules" all have very prominent keys & synth parts, & are every bit as "keyboard-driven" as anything on "Tango in the Night."

If anything's different, it has nothing to do with Christine. In the old days, a good many keyboardy textures were actually created on guitars (as Lindsey has verified), whereas on the latest album, the keyboardy textures were most if not all of them created on keyboards & workstations -- many of which were even played by people who aren't in the band!

Christine's basic style in the old days was to lay back in the rhythm section. "Piano-driven" music is stuff like Elton John & Billy Joel. Fleetwood Mac was virtually never that. Even on songs like "The Way I Feel" or "Songbird," the piano is back in the mix & combined with an acoustic guitar, which just builds a general sort of texture rather than "driving" the track.

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

The final misimpression is that the band now emphasizes individual voices over harmonies. Well, blow me down & call me a cab! These days, you have Stevie, Lindsey, Sharon, one or two other ladies & even one or two of the male backup musicians -- not to mention triggered voices & harmonies -- all vying for sonic space up there on stage. You didn't have that during Christine's heyday with the band. You had three singers who occasionally decided to sing harmonies together (like on "The Chain" or the "Go Your Own Way" chorus) but who more often than not let the individual voice of the lead singer on a song essentially carry it.

To prefer the band these days to its past with Christine is perfectly fine. I enjoy the debates -- bring 'em on! But why stock your reasons with concocted scenarios that never existed? Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs." People talk about the old days with Christine as if the band sounded like Elton John pounding his way through "Burn Down the Mission" at Dodger Stadium.

[chiliD]

People talk about the old days with Christine as if the band sounded like Elton John pounding his way through "Burn Down the Mission" at Dodger Stadium.


The closest I've heard to that is Stevie herself playing "Rhiannon"...the last track on the Enchanted box.


The only "piano-driven" track by Fleetwood Mac (not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk), that I can think of off the top of my head is "Say You Love Me". Whoa! Ok...of course, as I'm typing a couple more come to mind..."Sara" & "Don't Stop".

[Miss Vicky]

I could probably count the instances on one hand -- two hands at most -- of genuinely piano-driven songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalog. To say that the Mac's music from 2003 on is guitar-driven instead of piano-driven is to confound definitions & concoct facts out of rhetorical stances, a habit I noticed in many of the press writeups of "Say You Will," too.

The fact of the matter is that Christine's piano/keyboards rarely took center stage in the band's music on album, & even more rarely did so on the concert stage. Actually, "Say You Will" contains a lot more keyboard & synth hardware on it than many, many older Fleetwood Mac albums. Christine's absence means absolutely nothing in terms of keyboard & synth use or overuse: tracks like "Everybody Finds Out," "Goodbye Baby," "Illume," "Say You Will," "Peacekeeper," "Smile at You," "Running Through the Garden," "Silver Girl" & "Destiny Rules" all have very prominent keys & synth parts, & are every bit as "keyboard-driven" as anything on "Tango in the Night."

If anything's different, it has nothing to do with Christine. In the old days, a good many keyboardy textures were actually created on guitars (as Lindsey has verified), whereas on the latest album, the keyboardy textures were most if not all of them created on keyboards & workstations -- many of which were even played by people who aren't in the band!

Christine's basic style in the old days was to lay back in the rhythm section. "Piano-driven" music is stuff like Elton John & Billy Joel. Fleetwood Mac was virtually never that. Even on songs like "The Way I Feel" or "Songbird," the piano is back in the mix & combined with an acoustic guitar, which just builds a general sort of texture rather than "driving" the track.

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

The final misimpression is that the band now emphasizes individual voices over harmonies. Well, blow me down & call me a cab! These days, you have Stevie, Lindsey, Sharon, one or two other ladies & even one or two of the male backup musicians -- not to mention triggered voices & harmonies -- all vying for sonic space up there on stage. You didn't have that during Christine's heyday with the band. You had three singers who occasionally decided to sing harmonies together (like on "The Chain" or the "Go Your Own Way" chorus) but who more often than not let the individual voice of the lead singer on a song essentially carry it.

To prefer the band these days to its past with Christine is perfectly fine. I enjoy the debates -- bring 'em on! But why stock your reasons with concocted scenarios that never existed? Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs." People talk about the old days with Christine as if the band sounded like Elton John pounding his way through "Burn Down the Mission" at Dodger Stadium.

All I said was that you implied that I was happy Christine was gone. I say I didn't. Simple as that. My impression of the music on SYW? Is that it's harder and more rocking than previous <i>studio</i> releases. Many people who were saddened by CM's departure state the three part harmonies as one of the reasons why the loved the Rumours era so much. I said I prefer the individual voices. :shrug:

In any case, the whole reason why I mentioned the initial argument was to illustrate my point that Christine McVie fans are just as guilty as the Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs of being overly defensive of their chosen favorite (not reignite the initial argument). This little tiff has only served to illustrate that same point to a far greater degree than I could have done on my own. So, HomerMcVie, if you read this, I thank you for that.

[Miss Vicky]

To respond more directly to your post:

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

Obviously not. Having been born in 1981 it was impossible. In any case I was referring to studio releases, not live performances.

Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs."

Gee, you know me so well. :rolleyes: Once again, I was not referring to live performances but rather studio releases. Also there are two things about the above quote that I find quite amusing: 1) You are saying this to someone who has a reputation for being a "Stevie Hater" and 2) I was so happy that Christine was gone that I bought "In the Meantime." :lol:

For the record: I wouldn't be heartbroken if Stevie OR Lindsey left Fleetwood Mac either.

[Miss Vicky]

The closest I've heard to that is Stevie herself playing "Rhiannon"...the last track on the Enchanted box.


The only "piano-driven" track by Fleetwood Mac (not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk), that I can think of off the top of my head is "Say You Love Me". Whoa! Ok...of course, as I'm typing a couple more come to mind..."Sara" & "Don't Stop".


Why are we "not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk"? They're just as much Fleetwood Mac tunes as anything else in the catalog.

[David]

All I said was that you implied that I was happy Christine was gone.Not me. You were talking to Homer McVie. I just jumped into a thread to post my thoughts. It's a beautiful thing -- these Web forums!
In any case, the whole reason why I mentioned the initial argument was to illustrate my point that Christine McVie fans are just as guilty as the Chiffonheads and Buckinghamaniacs of being overly defensive of their chosen favorite (not reignite the initial argument).Unquestionably. The overdefensiveness affects everyone ... even Char.

Say, what ever happened to Char?

[David]

Why are we "not counting ballads of the "Songbird" ilk"? They're just as much Fleetwood Mac tunes as anything else in the catalog.You guys are both defining "piano-driven" differently from me.

A track with a prominent piano on it doesn't automatically make it "piano-driven" -- at least not in my purview.

[David]

The closest I've heard to that is Stevie herself playing "Rhiannon"...the last track on the Enchanted box. :laugh: :laugh: :lol: :lol: :laugh:

Now I'll forever describe the piano "Rhiannon" as Stevie's "Burn Down the Mission"!! :laugh: :lol:

[Miss Vicky]

Not me. You were talking to Homer McVie. I just jumped into a thread to post my thoughts. It's a beautiful thing -- these Web forums!



Actually, we're both wrong. That post to which you referred was my response to SteveMacD implying that I was glad Christine was gone. Instead of <i>implying</i> that I'm glad she's gone, you've flat out stated that you believe that. My apologies.

[glitter_fades]

I could probably count the instances on one hand -- two hands at most -- of genuinely piano-driven songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalog. To say that the Mac's music from 2003 on is guitar-driven instead of piano-driven is to confound definitions & concoct facts out of rhetorical stances, a habit I noticed in many of the press writeups of "Say You Will," too.

The fact of the matter is that Christine's piano/keyboards rarely took center stage in the band's music on album, & even more rarely did so on the concert stage. Actually, "Say You Will" contains a lot more keyboard & synth hardware on it than many, many older Fleetwood Mac albums. Christine's absence means absolutely nothing in terms of keyboard & synth use or overuse: tracks like "Everybody Finds Out," "Goodbye Baby," "Illume," "Say You Will," "Peacekeeper," "Smile at You," "Running Through the Garden," "Silver Girl" & "Destiny Rules" all have very prominent keys & synth parts, & are every bit as "keyboard-driven" as anything on "Tango in the Night."

If anything's different, it has nothing to do with Christine. In the old days, a good many keyboardy textures were actually created on guitars (as Lindsey has verified), whereas on the latest album, the keyboardy textures were most if not all of them created on keyboards & workstations -- many of which were even played by people who aren't in the band!

Christine's basic style in the old days was to lay back in the rhythm section. "Piano-driven" music is stuff like Elton John & Billy Joel. Fleetwood Mac was virtually never that. Even on songs like "The Way I Feel" or "Songbird," the piano is back in the mix & combined with an acoustic guitar, which just builds a general sort of texture rather than "driving" the track.

Another misimpression is that 2003 Fleetwood Mac is harder-rocking than in the past. I mean, come on. Did you _see_ a Rumours or a Tusk show?

The final misimpression is that the band now emphasizes individual voices over harmonies. Well, blow me down & call me a cab! These days, you have Stevie, Lindsey, Sharon, one or two other ladies & even one or two of the male backup musicians -- not to mention triggered voices & harmonies -- all vying for sonic space up there on stage. You didn't have that during Christine's heyday with the band. You had three singers who occasionally decided to sing harmonies together (like on "The Chain" or the "Go Your Own Way" chorus) but who more often than not let the individual voice of the lead singer on a song essentially carry it.

To prefer the band these days to its past with Christine is perfectly fine. I enjoy the debates -- bring 'em on! But why stock your reasons with concocted scenarios that never existed? Cite your *real* reasons: "I don't like Christine's songs, so I'd rather not hear them live -- especially if it's in place of one of Stevie's songs or one of Lindsey's songs." People talk about the old days with Christine as if the band sounded like Elton John pounding his way through "Burn Down the Mission" at Dodger Stadium.

Why are you boring us with the facts? :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:

:wavey:

[Miss Vicky]

You guys are both defining "piano-driven" differently from me.

A track with a prominent piano on it doesn't automatically make it "piano-driven" -- at least not in my purview.

And thus, with multiple definitions of terms, this ridiculous argument cannot ever reach an actual conclusion. Therefore, let's call it a draw, shall we?

[SteveMacD]

Actually, we're both wrong. That post to which you referred was my response to SteveMacD implying that I was glad Christine was gone. Instead of <i>implying</i> that I'm glad she's gone, you've flat out stated that you believe that. My apologies.
What's really funny is that I was just answering your question of how anybody COULD imply you were glad she was gone. No, you didn't say you were glad, but a case could easily be made that you made the implication.