Songwriting Credits

[AliP]

Does anyone ever wonder why there weren't more songs that were credited to either "Stevie & Lindsey" or "Lindsey & Christine" etc. For instance, a song like Gypsy. We all know that Lindsey did alot with that song. I know that Stevie wrote it, and as she says, she brings in a "skeleton" of a song and then Lindsey will put his magic in and mold it into its final version. Shouldn't Gypsy be credited to "Lindsey & Stevie" then?

Admittedly, I know nothing about how these things work. Is it because Stevie wrote the lyrics and the simple melody so she is credited with all the songwriting credits? Then I don't understand how a song like "The Chain" is credited to all five members?? I mean, really, doesn't John come up with a bass part for every song, like he did with The Chain?? So shouldn't he be credited on every song? It just seems strange to me. But, then I don't really understand how it works, so hopefully someone can help me out.

Also, compare The Beatles. Why are Lennon & McCartney credited for every song that either one of them did (for the most part anyway, I'm not 100% sure on this.) From what I've read on The Beatles, Paul or John would write a song etc (and I'm assuming came up with the melody etc) so shouldn't only one of them be credited?

Or is it just a matter of personal choice? :shrug:

[SteveMacD]

Does anyone ever wonder why there weren't more songs that were credited to either "Stevie & Lindsey" or "Lindsey & Christine" etc. For instance, a song like Gypsy. We all know that Lindsey did alot with that song. I know that Stevie wrote it, and as she says, she brings in a "skeleton" of a song and then Lindsey will put his magic in and mold it into its final version. Shouldn't Gypsy be credited to "Lindsey & Stevie" then?

Not really. Stevie wrote the lyrics and came up with the chord progression. The magic that Lindsey works is more with arranging. For example, the "Time" band did a different arrangement of "Gold Dust Woman," however, it was still properly credited to Stevie Nicks.
Admittedly, I know nothing about how these things work. Is it because Stevie wrote the lyrics and the simple melody so she is credited with all the songwriting credits? Then I don't understand how a song like "The Chain" is credited to all five members?? I mean, really, doesn't John come up with a bass part for every song, like he did with The Chain?? So shouldn't he be credited on every song? It just seems strange to me. But, then I don't really understand how it works, so hopefully someone can help me out.
Everybody is credited with "The Chain" because the music came out of several sessions of improvisational jamming. Sometimes Lindsey led the jam, sometimes the others led the jam. Stevie had some lyrics that fit the final song that came out of the jams. In other words, nobody sat down and wrote the music for "The Chain," hence it made more sense to credit everybody.
Also, compare The Beatles. Why are Lennon & McCartney credited for every song that either one of them did (for the most part anyway, I'm not 100% sure on this.) From what I've read on The Beatles, Paul or John would write a song etc (and I'm assuming came up with the melody etc) so shouldn't only one of them be credited?
Their manager told them to do it that way for tax reasons.

[glitter_fades]

It's up to the people working on the music to decide who is author of what. Lennon and McCartney didn't co-write a lot of their music. One or the other did a lot of songs on their own. The co-authorship was given on a lot of John and Paul tunes no matter who did what. With Stevie and Lindsey I'm sure we'll never get agreement on whether LB deserved credit for any of Steive's music. I personally believe he did deserve but never asked for it. Other's don't think so. Seeing as Stevie has so many co-authorships in her solo career, I find it hard to believe anyone else but Lindsey would have done the amount of "magic" on Stevie's songs, for nothing, as he did. Why else is all her pre-solo stuff credited only to her, but more than half her solo albums have co-credit or cover songwriters? Already ducking the flames... :D

Here is Stevie's most recent view of her songwriting with LB. No mention was made of her songwriting with all the other people she's co-authored with, but as far as LB is concerned, he is only a producer and that's it.

http://www.viceland.com/se/v1n7/htdocs/long.php

[AliP]

I personally believe he did deserve but never asked for it. Other's don't think so. Seeing as Stevie has so many co-authorships in her solo career, I find it hard to believe anyone else but Lindsey would have done the amount of "magic" on Stevie's songs, for nothing, as he did. Why else is all her pre-solo stuff credited only to her, but more than half her solo albums have co-credit or cover songwriters? Already ducking the flames... :D

Actually, I agree with you. It was one of the reasons why I asked the question. Since she has co-credited so many other people, I don't believe that she has a problem crediting other people. So, it makes me wonder why never a co-credit for Lindsey? :shrug:

[glitter_fades]

Actually, I agree with you. It was one of the reasons why I asked the question. Since she has co-credited so many other people, I don't believe that she has a problem crediting other people. So, it makes me wonder why never a co-credit for Lindsey? :shrug:

Read my edit above. :xoxo:

[AliP]

Not really. Stevie wrote the lyrics and came up with the chord progression. The magic that Lindsey works is more with arranging. For example, the "Time" band did a different arrangement of "Gold Dust Woman," however, it was still properly credited to Stevie Nicks.



Thanks for explaining. I never quite understood the difference. So I guess people don't get credit for arrangement?

[GypsySorcerer]

It's up to the people working on the music to decide who is author of what. Lennon and McCartney didn't co-write a lot of their music. One or the other did a lot of songs on their own. The co-authorship was given on a lot of John and Paul tunes no matter who did what. With Stevie and Lindsey I'm sure we'll never get agreement on whether LB deserved credit for any of Steive's music. I personally believe he did deserve but never asked for it. Other's don't think so. Seeing as Stevie has so many co-authorships in her solo career, I find it hard to believe anyone else but Lindsey would have done the amount of "magic" on Stevie's songs, for nothing, as he did. Why else is all her pre-solo stuff credited only to her, but more than half her solo albums have co-credit or cover songwriters? Already ducking the flames... :D

Here is Stevie's most recent view of her songwriting with LB. No mention was made of her songwriting with all the other people she's co-authored with, but as far as LB is concerned, he is only a producer and that's it.

http://www.viceland.com/se/v1n7/htdocs/long.php

As she began relying more heavily on cowriters during her solo career, that's when it took a nose dive IMO.

[Jyqm]

Does anyone ever wonder why there weren't more songs that were credited to either "Stevie & Lindsey" or "Lindsey & Christine" etc. For instance, a song like Gypsy. We all know that Lindsey did alot with that song. I know that Stevie wrote it, and as she says, she brings in a "skeleton" of a song and then Lindsey will put his magic in and mold it into its final version. Shouldn't Gypsy be credited to "Lindsey & Stevie" then?

Admittedly, I know nothing about how these things work. Is it because Stevie wrote the lyrics and the simple melody so she is credited with all the songwriting credits? Then I don't understand how a song like "The Chain" is credited to all five members?? I mean, really, doesn't John come up with a bass part for every song, like he did with The Chain?? So shouldn't he be credited on every song? It just seems strange to me. But, then I don't really understand how it works, so hopefully someone can help me out.

Also, compare The Beatles. Why are Lennon & McCartney credited for every song that either one of them did (for the most part anyway, I'm not 100% sure on this.) From what I've read on The Beatles, Paul or John would write a song etc (and I'm assuming came up with the melody etc) so shouldn't only one of them be credited?

Or is it just a matter of personal choice? :shrug:

Well, if you've got a good contract, it's always a matter of personal choice. You can credit a song to whomever you want to. But as far as something like "Gypsy," STevie wrote the lyrics, the melody, the chord progression. She wrote the song; she gets the songwriting credit. As far as I know, everything that Lindsey did with the song was on the production end. He arranged the song, made it sound a certain way. And he does have the production credit, along with Dashut and Caillat (and, nominally, the band as a whole; again, a personal choice).

If you think about in terms of somethign like standards, it might make the distinction a little clearer. Even keeping it in the realm of Stevie, take a song like "At Last." Stevie performed/recorded it one way; Etta James recorded it very differently. But the differences are all in the arrangement and production. The song - the lyrics, the melody, the chords - were all written by Mack Gordon and Harry Warren. Now I don't think those two ever recorded a version of the song in their lives; they weren't performers, to my knowledge. So no violin or horn arrangements were ever their doing. But they wrote the song; they get the songwriting credit.

Or think of covers. Kind of the same thing as standards, really. And again keeping it in the realm of Stevie: "I Still Miss Someone." Who came up with that absolutely wretched arrangement? I don't know. I don't want to know. I don't ever want to listen to that recording again. It's completely reworked and horribly butchered. But the songwriting credit still goes to Johnny Cash, because he wrote the song, even if Stevie or Rupert Hine destroyed it.

"The Chain": Yes, John probably comes up with his own bass line for almost every FM song, but the specific bass line he comes up with is always a reflection of the chord progression and melody written by the songwriter. Except in the case of "The Chain," where he came up with the bass line on his own, and it was later worked into the song. As far as everyone being credited for songwriting on that track, it was probably just a PR decision. Stevie wrote some lyrics, John wrote bass line, Lindsey wrote a melody... hell, at this point we might as well credit Mick and Chris for their part in the jam session, right?

The Beatles: In the beginning, John and Paul did write a lot of their songs together. And when they signed their record contract, they agreed always to credit their songs "Lennon/McCartney," no matter who did most or all of the writing. So they were stuck with that legally, and they had to do it even later on, when they were clearly no longer writing songs with each other.

Does that make the whole imbroglio any more lucid, I hope?

[blinker12]

http://www.viceland.com/se/v1n7/htdocs/long.php

Whoa, glitter_fades, thanks for posting that link. I hadn't heard of that story before. I loved it, and it's good to hear she's working on new material... could it be that the decades-old Rhiannon project will finally come to fruition?
I think I'll post the link over in the Stevie forum just so people know about it...

[glitter_fades]

Does that make the whole imbroglio any more lucid, I hope?

Even if you what you say is true about her lyrics and chords on pre-solo songs, it doesn't explain how Stevie has all these co-written songs later on. Do you think she just handed poems and lyrics over to other songwriters only then, and they did all the chords and whatever you think equals music, but this was never the case for songs she wrote before her solo career? Many of Stevie's songs, as first concieved, are so far removed from the final product that anyone can tell they are not record worthy as written. In the days before Pro Tools it was up to somebody to make them worthy of recording. If that person wanted to get paid you can bet they'd insist on credit for their music. When other people helped her with songs she gave them credit, except Lindsey. I guess we can count Frozen Love, but that's all I know of as co-credited before her solo recordings.

[glitter_fades]

could it be that the decades-old Rhiannon project will finally come to fruition?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Johnny Stew]

Even if you what you say is true about her lyrics and chords on pre-solo songs, it doesn't explain how Stevie has all these co-written songs later on. Do you think she just handed poems and lyrics over to other songwriters only then, and they did all the chords and whatever you think equals music, but this was never the case for songs she wrote before her solo career?I believe what happens in the case of Stevie's co-authored songs, is basically what she explained in regards to the writing of "I Can't Wait."

Rick Nowels brought her a recording of an instrumental piece he wrote... she really liked it, and wrote lyrics to it.
She mentions the same in regards to "Desert Angel"... she listened to several instrumental demos that Mike Campbell gave her, found the one that she felt fit the sentiment she was trying to convey, and then wrote the lyrics.

If I recall, Rick Vito basically said the same thing in regards to "The Second Time"... it was a song that he was working on -- music with a few lyrics. Stevie heard it and liked it, and wrote completely new lyrics for it.

So basically, it seems that when she's the one who sat down at the piano and composed the melody, lyrics and chord progression... she gets full songwriting credit, no matter how much the producer alters it in the studio.
But when she writes lyrics to music that someone else composed, or adds significant additional lyrics, then they share the songwriting credit.

As to why she has so often (since 1983) written lyrics to music composed by someone else -- probably because she's fully aware of her limitations in that particular area, and wisely works around them the best way she can. :nod:

[David]

I believe what happens in the case of Stevie's co-authored songs, is basically what she explained in regards to the writing of "I Can't Wait."Yeah, didn't she say during the Wild Heart Innerview that she doesn't really sit in a room with someone & co-write. They just pass their words or their chords from one to the other in separate timespaces.

[David]

"The Chain": Stevie wrote some lyrics, John wrote bass line, Lindsey wrote a melody... hell, at this point we might as well credit Mick and Chris for their part in the jam session, right?Based on that old demo or whatever on the DVD-Audio, I'd have to say that Christine was more responsible than any other single person for "'The Chain."

Isn't that weird?!

[Kelly]

This is probably one of those topics that will cause some to feel they need to rush to Stevie's defense, as if she needs defending. Her abilities and talents are long established. However, I cannot understand how, with a song like Gypsy, more people do not believe that Lindsey deserves more than a production credit?! I do not hear the melody in the original demos. The piano demo has no melody, at least to my ears. To think that after 35 plus years of working together, there has never been one time that Stevie and Lindsey have worked on something in which both contributed equally is sort of ridiculous in my opinion. Especially knowing Stevie's limited abilities in the early years. Frozen Love is unique... BUT she gave him that credit because she admired the ripping guitar solo, she has said that many times. My point is, imho, Lindsey probably never asked or even expected credit, even when deserved. As for why Stevie never felt like she should credit him, well that is a can of worms.

[trackaghost]

However, I cannot understand how, with a song like Gypsy, more people do not believe that Lindsey deserves more than a production credit?!

I don't know about that really. The Bella Donna era version (the fast one, I'm assuming it's with Tom Petty) sounds a lot like the Gypsy we know and love. Lindsey, it seems to me, slowed the song down and added little flourishes here and there (which I totally admit brings it alive). He's a great producer and arranger and that's what they do.
I would compare Gypsy to Blondie's Heart Of Glass. The original version of that song is more of a reggae tune and much faster. Mike Chapman, the producer, wanted to turn it into a disco tune. It's still a Harry/Stein composition though.

[Nico]

Maybe Lindsey is really, really humble and just never cared enough. Ok, maybe not humble...maybe he just didn't want to associate himself too much with Stevie's songs. No disrespect to her songs whatsoever, but maybe he was really like one of those slightly chauvinistic/macho types who didn't want to be credited for some "girlie" song.

Ok, my explanation and reasoning is really lame. I have no idea what I am talking about. All I know is that whatever Lindsey did for Gypsy was brilliant because the song and production is gorgeous.

[glitter_fades]

Maybe guitar riffs fall purely into arrangement but I wouldn't deny that his is one instance where the line between arranger and co-writer seems consistently blurred. He's had plenty of time to get over it but it would grate at one's nerves to see most of her songs attributed by the masses, purely to her. There's so many cases but to take the example of Rhiannon. Not to deny her contributions (she got the credit, she's not being denied anything) but to focus on his, you only have to listen to The Dance version to note where a large part of the success of the song lies. Or the case with GDW, a masterpiece that without him was a rather ordinary, basic 'tune'. Obviously according to their arrangements it was never catergorised as 'writing' which is unfortunate for him because his official credits do not represent his contributions. If he cared about it you'd think he'd have asked for credit. I don't think he needed to get over anything, except maybe the constant downplaying Stevie does when speaking of his contributions to her songs, like in the article I cited above. She often points out how they never wrote songs together. He only produced. Whatever. :rolleyes:

Everybody knows they didn't sit down and write songs together. As another poster pointed out, she didn't do that with her credited co-writers, either. I'm not saying Stevie doesn't write her own songs. She just finds it hard to give much credit to Lindsey for making her FM songs hit worthy but she doesn't mind admitting she needs help with songwriting in her solo career or that she needs to depend on writing lyrics to other people's music to get hits. Somehow she never needed help with her FM material until Tango? When I listen to a lot of her raw demos, I don't hear the same song as the final result. To me, it's not the lyrics that make the song. Her songs are almost void of musicality until the guitar parts, bridges, and other instrumentation are added. In the case of Rhiannon, does anyone think the plodding piano demo is the same song as the BN live performance or the White Album radio hit? Is it the great lyrics that perk your ears up to listen when you hear that song on the radio or is it all the additional guitar work and rockin tempo?

Stevie is properly credited as the songwriter on all songs she wrote. I'd think absent a contract with a co-writer, (she obviously didn't have one with Lindsey) it would be up to Stevie to admit how much help she got, or to credit another person for changing her original musical concept so much, that musically, it was hardly recognizable from the original song. The more interesting question is: Do you think Stevie was/is happy about the many changes made to her FM songs even when the end result produced a hit? :eek:
.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I think most will agree Lindsey's work on Stevie's songs has been magnificent, and deserving of a lot of credit...but because he arranged the music doesn't mean he should get credit for the songwriting..

I mean should Sheryl Crow be considered a co-author of Candlebright since she produced and arranged the music? Lindsey get's production credit, but not the songwriting credit for a song like say Gypsy..

Chris

[catinthedark]

I'm not sure the songwriting credits when it comes to Stevie Nicks are any different from the majority of songwriting credits. The person who writes the lyrics and the basic melody is the songwriter. Every song, be a Britney Spears track (and no one can argue THAT hasn't been majorly produced) or a Stevie Nicks track starts out as a basic tune (usually played on piano or guitar) and some words. Producers and arrangers get credits for the producing and arranging they do. Taking a piano demo like Rhiannon and turning it into the end product we know and love is what an arranger and producer do. That is their job. I don't think Lindsey himself, or any other producer or arranger if they were honest, would argue they WROTE the song. If Stevie hadn't come up with the basic tune and words of Rhiannon, that song would not exist in any way, shape, or form today. I think we're all a little close to this argument because we all feel so strongly about Stevie and Lindsey's work (be it on each others' works, or not). But if you think of someone like Diane Warren, who has written hundreds of hit songs, for such a wide variety of singers in a wide variety of genres - you'd never GUESS what they could become. I have heard some of her demos through the years. Most songs start life as stark demos - they get instruments and harmonies and production added to them. But still, Diane Warren is the songwriter.

Similarly, Stevie doesn't ever get credit (and no one ever suggests she should) for the harmonies she adds to Lindsey's songs. Never does Christine get credit for adding the piano/keyboard harmonies and vocal harmonies that she does. That's just part of being in a band. Someone gives birth to the song - the songwriter. The other band members help to enrich it, and the producer and arranger (and mixer) take it to another whole dimension.

Just my two cents.

[Jyqm]

Even if you what you say is true about her lyrics and chords on pre-solo songs, it doesn't explain how Stevie has all these co-written songs later on. Do you think she just handed poems and lyrics over to other songwriters only then, and they did all the chords and whatever you think equals music, but this was never the case for songs she wrote before her solo career? Many of Stevie's songs, as first concieved, are so far removed from the final product that anyone can tell they are not record worthy as written. In the days before Pro Tools it was up to somebody to make them worthy of recording. If that person wanted to get paid you can bet they'd insist on credit for their music. When other people helped her with songs she gave them credit, except Lindsey. I guess we can count Frozen Love, but that's all I know of as co-credited before her solo recordings.

Honestly, I really can't answer that question just because I have no idea what exactly the origins of Stevie's various co-written songs are, what exactly Stevie or anybody else brought to the table, why certain people are credited with co-writing certain songs. Anybody else?

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Just my two cents.


And what a great two cents it was! You said was I was trying to say much better...I totally agree

Chris

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Honestly, I really can't answer that question just because I have no idea what exactly the origins of Stevie's various co-written songs are, what exactly Stevie or anybody else brought to the table, why certain people are credited with co-writing certain songs. Anybody else?


It was to my understanding that those who got cowriting credit throughout her solo career actually contributed to the lyrics in some way..IE : I know I read somewhere that Sandy Stewart gave a line or two to "If Anyone Falls" and it is credited as Written By : S. Nicks and S. Stewart

And "If I were You" didnt she somewhere say Rick Nowels wrote some certain line and it is credit as Written By: S. Nicks, R. Nowels


Sandy Stewart wrote "Seven Wonders" but Stevie contributed a line or two and is also credited..

I always thought that if the person contributed to the LYRICS then they received the songwriting credit..

Also to mention--it seems on her albums now she will have Words and Music by : Stevie Nicks

or in the case of "I Miss You" it is credited as Words by : Stevie Nicks
Music by : Rick Nowels

I think that is a more appropriate way to credit a song myself

Chris

[Jyqm]

When I listen to a lot of her raw demos, I don't hear the same song as the final result. To me, it's not the lyrics that make the song. Her songs are almost void of musicality until the guitar parts, bridges, and other instrumentation are added. In the case of Rhiannon, does anyone think the plodding piano demo is the same song as the BN live performance or the White Album radio hit? Is it the great lyrics that perk your ears up to listen when you hear that song on the radio or is it all the additional guitar work and rockin tempo?

If we're defining "song" the way the music world defines it, then yes, Stevie's piano demo of "Rhiannon" is the same song as the album recording and the live performances. Again, the lyrics, melody and chords are all there. It doesn't matter how different those versions sound, if different instruments or a different tempo are used. It's the same song, because the basic structure of the song is the same.

Think about it in terms of jazz. Who was it, Rodgers and Hammerstein? Wrote a little song for a movie musical, called "My Favorite Things." John Coltrane did things with that song that they never could have imagined, he ran circles around the melody, threw in all those incredible solos. The song sounds nothing like the version sung by Julie Andrews. But John Coltrane does not get songwriting credit on that song. And for good reason. I imagine R&H would have been quite miffed if Coltrane grabbed their song, their melody and chord progression, and was able to claim it as his own (even in part) simply by changing the instrumentation and the rhythm and by soloing over/around/through it.

[glitter_fades]

Similarly, Stevie doesn't ever get credit (and no one ever suggests she should) for the harmonies she adds to Lindsey's songs. Never does Christine get credit for adding the piano/keyboard harmonies and vocal harmonies that she does. That's just part of being in a band. Someone gives birth to the song - the songwriter. The other band members help to enrich it, and the producer and arranger (and mixer) take it to another whole dimension.

Just my two cents.

Stevie doesn't give Chris credit, but Chris and Lindsey have shared credit on many songs. In all those cases, did Chris not have chords? She only had words and didn't know how her songs should sound, or did Lindsey toss in a few lyrics and share credit? If people feel the skeleltons Stevie presented to Lindsey or the band, like Rhiannon, Dreams, or Gold Dust Woman were actual songs, even when new chords and instrumental passages were added to create a very different song, there's no issue. I don't see the average producer taking a songwriter's original and adding their own additional guitar music and extra bridges and breaks, or even giving it to session guitarists and telling them to add extra music to the song and edit the lyrics for nothing except a chance to play on the song. Maybe that happens? As far as sharing credit with Sheryl Crow on songs like Candlebright or Sorcerer, those songs are almost exactly the same as the versions Stevie did with Lindsey in BN. He didn't get credit so why should she? Sheryl produced less than half of TISL. I can't count how many times Stevie's showered her with praise for helping make that record. She doesn't do that with music produced by Lindsey. I notice she often gets defensive about his contributions or criticizes what he does with her songs. Anyone want to venture a guess if she even likes what he does, or she just accepts it because of band politics?

[Hippocampus]

Stevie doesn't give Chris credit, but Chris and Lindsey have shared credit on many songs. In all those cases, did Chris not have chords? She only had words and didn't know how her songs should sound, or did Lindsey toss in a few lyrics and share credit?

"Many" a song? They wrote "World Turning" together and collaborated on some Tango tunes and that's just about it.
I recall reading an interview in which Stevie admitted that she felt jealous about Lindsey's collaboration with Chris on "World Turning" because she had never written a song with him from the ground up. So this is definitely not a case of a songwriter giving credit to another for a mere arrangement or stray idea.
As for the Tango songs, I'm inclined to believe it's more of the same, Lindsey and Chris both working together as opposed to one helping out the other, with the possible exception of Isn't It Midnight (for which Lindsey gets partial credit for the music).

[Hippocampus]

I don't know about that really. The Bella Donna era version (the fast one, I'm assuming it's with Tom Petty) sounds a lot like the Gypsy we know and love. Lindsey, it seems to me, slowed the song down and added little flourishes here and there (which I totally admit brings it alive). He's a great producer and arranger and that's what they do.


Exactly. By the time Lindsey got to play around with "Gypsy" for Mirage, the song had evolved from a threadbare demo to a more elaborate demo and then to a full band outtake with Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers which was recorded during the Bella Donna sessions. "Gypsy" is really a bad example to use in this case. :)

[The Tower]

Thanks for explaining. I never quite understood the difference. So I guess people don't get credit for arrangement?
If it's a significant amount of arranging, then they can get a producer credit.

Movie business producer = music business record executive
Movie business director = music business producer

Honestly, I really can't answer that question just because I have no idea what exactly the origins of Stevie's various co-written songs are, what exactly Stevie or anybody else brought to the table, why certain people are credited with co-writing certain songs. Anybody else?
I think Stevie ran out of musical ideas around the Wild Heart era. I'm assuming from what I've read and heard that she receives music tracks from various trusted sources. If she likes what she hears, she sings along to them with her cut and paste from her journals. If the amalgam works out, she records and (possibly) releases it.

"Running Through the Garden" and "Battle of the Dragon" - the music to both of these songs was written by the same team (g. nicholson & j. jarvis). These songs were finished during the same RAL period.

Mike Campell from the Heartbreakers has consistently sent her music tracks. Benmont Tench gave her one, too (the infamous "Desert Angel").

Again, I think Stevie ran out of new music ideas quite some time ago. She used to write all the time in the I IV V key of G in her early days. All those "Anybody There" / "Stay Away" / "Amber" songs are all like that- "That's Alright" was also originally in G. With "Rhiannon" came the days of Am and all the subsequent key of F songs- "Beautiful Child", "Sisters of the Moon", "Gypsy", "Sara", "Outside the Rain", "Straight Back", "Sable on Blond", "No Spoken Word", "Sweet Girl", "Fall From Grace"....

Other than that, she has occasional hiccough of songs that are based on bass line driven chord progressions- "Blue Lamp", "Baby Doll", "Whole Lotta Trouble" and "Trouble In Shangri-La" are all songs where the chord progression follows Stevie's bass line "melody".

It all makes sense to me. She's not really a musician, so it can become difficult to write inspired songs with the same old chords. Trouble is- it can even be MORE uninspired when one adds clumsy lyrics and a half-assed melody to someone else's music ("That Made Me Stronger" :eek: "Love Changes" :eek: )

[Kelly]

I think most will agree Lindsey's work on Stevie's songs has been magnificent, and deserving of a lot of credit...but because he arranged the music doesn't mean he should get credit for the songwriting..

I mean should Sheryl Crow be considered a co-author of Candlebright since she produced and arranged the music? Lindsey get's production credit, but not the songwriting credit for a song like say Gypsy..

Chris


To me that is not even remotely the same as what I am talking about. When I listen to the piano demo of Gypsy, it sounds NOTHING like what is on Mirage. Stevie does not have the same relationship with Sheryl as she has had with LIndsey over the years. SnL spent months in the studio working on tunes...hours and hours of time to noodle and figure little things out with songs. I think Lindsey had heard Gypsy before the BD sessions but I have no proof of that. Who knows what he did with it and exactly when? I am not saying that Stevie should not get credited for her lyrics..but I am sure over the years, there are times when Lindsey contributed more to her songs than just production. (as other producers and artists have done with her co authored songs)
I see this topic as a slippery slope that I will stay away from after this because no one is going to change their opinion. So many people want to see aspects of their dynamic as black and white..she wrote it, he produced it. I see the possibility that the lines could have become blurred at times. It seems much more logical and reasonable to me, that given the amount of time the band spent together in the early years, particularly SnL during the BN years, that at some point Lindsey helped her with the melody and chords of one of her songs. He is not credited with EVER doing so.

[Johnny Stew]

I can't count how many times Stevie's showered (Sheryl) with praise for helping make that record. She doesn't do that with music produced by Lindsey. I notice she often gets defensive about his contributions or criticizes what he does with her songs. Anyone want to venture a guess if she even likes what he does, or she just accepts it because of band politics?I've never taken her comments to be a defensive posturing. The way it reads to me, is that Stevie is just trying to explain that her and Lindsey did not "write songs together," in a traditional sense.
There was no "Ooh, I like that line, let's keep it -- ok, now for the next line, how about if we sing _____."

I thought she was being very honest when she described her songs as "little skeletons" when she brings them to Lindsey.
What is a skeleton, but bare bones?

She readily admits that Lindsey then takes said skeleton, and fleshes it out (to continue the metaphor) to the living, breathing song it becomes.
Sometimes she loves how it turned out... other times she feels that it moved in a direction she hadn't intended for it. But, either way, she obviously trusts Lindsey's talents and appreciates what he does for her songs.

Let's move away from the Stevie/Lindsey dynamic for a minute, and discuss the Christine/Lindsey dynamic.
Lindsey has stated on several occasions that he feels his greatest contribution to Fleetwood Mac was not as a songwriter or guitarist, but as a producer with the innate ability to take "raw material from the girls," and turn it into something special.

Despite him having said that, I don't recall a single Christine interview I've ever read, where she gives Lindsey any credit for her songs beyond what he does as a producer.
Out of five albums, "World Turning," "Mystified," "Isn't It Midnight," and both parts of "You And I," are the only songs on which they share a songwriting credit. And that's most likely because they actually sat down together and wrote those songs together, "from the ground up" -- each offering lyrical and melodical contributions in the process. (In the case of "Isn't It Midnight," Lindsey shares credit with Christine and Eddy for having written the music, while Christine has sole credit for the lyrics.)

Also, Ken Caillat and Richard Dashut were producing those albums alongside Lindsey... and who knows how much they contributed to the final product in regards to many of those songs, too.

[Johnny Stew]

Trouble is- it can even be MORE uninspired when one adds clumsy lyrics and a half-assed melody to someone else's music ("That Made Me Stronger" :eek: "Love Changes" :eek: )"Love Changes" -- words & music by Stevie Nicks.

[HejiraNYC]

To think that after 35 plus years of working together, there has never been one time that Stevie and Lindsey have worked on something in which both contributed equally is sort of ridiculous in my opinion.

To make matters even more puzzling... if memory serves... I believe the instrumental "Book of Miracles" was credited to both Buckingham and Nicks as songwriters, yet when Stevie re-recorded it with vocals and lyrics as "Juliet," she is credited as the sole songwriter. :shrug:

[The Tower]

"Love Changes" -- words & music by Stevie Nicks.
Hmmmm.... that's odd. I coulda swore that this was a collaberation between her and David Kahne. It's his only deal on the album (why they included him in the picture and not Rick Nowels is beyond me) and I remember reading him in the credits...

Did she pull a fast one and change the songwriting credits like she did with "Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You?"

Well, if she did write the whole thing she should be ashamed of herself for putting that stinker in instead of the marvelous "Space Needle".

[amber]

Despite him having said that, I don't recall a single Christine interview I've ever read, where she gives Lindsey any credit for her songs beyond what he does as a producer.
Out of five albums, "World Turning," "Mystified," "Isn't It Midnight," and both parts of "You And I," are the only songs on which they share a songwriting credit. And that's most likely because they actually sat down together and wrote those songs together, "from the ground up" -- each offering lyrical and melodical contributions in the process. (In the case of "Isn't It Midnight," Lindsey shares credit with Christine and Eddy for having written the music, while Christine has sole credit for the lyrics.)

I think it's because a lot of christine's songs probably aren't as "raw material" as all that. She plays that instrument, they're probably for the most part pretty fleshed out when she does them. And, again, having her own musicianship at her disposal, even if they are not that fleshed out, in terms of other parts, she may very well have an idea of the end result sound. I think it's more like "two musicians jamming together" when they flesh out her songs, rather than Lindsey doing that much work. JMO.

[trackaghost]

I personally think that if Lindsey wanted credit then he'd ask for it.
He's a producer and I think he more than understands what he does is what a lot of producers do, so why should he be different when it comes to credits?

I still find Gypsy an odd example. Sure Lindsey turned an okay song into a work of genius, but the song was fully there before he got his hands on it. It had been worked and reworked during the Bella Donna sessions (didn't Tom Petty say he was never quite sure what to do with it?).

He's a great producer, and great producers are able to flesh out and give a distinctive sound to the work. It doesn't automatically entitle them to a songwriting credit.

And then of course there's Sara which everyone assumed Lindsey deserved all the credit for, until it was revealed he had nothing to do with the Cleaning Lady version of the song. The song was completed before Lindsey worked his magic on it, but I will never deny his version is superior and his production work is amazing.

As for Rhiannon, isn't Lindsey's riff simply the piano part Stevie played in the demo, played on guitar? He certainly turned it into something special but the riff was there albeit in a different form.

[Johnny Stew]

I coulda swore that this was a collaberation between her and David Kahne. It's his only deal on the album (why they included him in the picture and not Rick Nowels is beyond me) and I remember reading him in the credits...David Kahne produced the track... but Stevie was the songwriter.

Well, if she did write the whole thing she should be ashamed of herself for putting that stinker in instead of the marvelous "Space Needle".She needed another uptempo, pop-rock song to round out the album.
I quite like "Love Changes." Love it, in fact.

"Space Needle" will have its day.

[Serrart]

I think it would be producers' heaven if they could have writing credits just for changing the tempo, the instrumentation or adding riffs. In songs like Gypsy or Rhiannon the music and the lyrics were there. The version we prefer is another matter, IMO.
Or Stevie could just make the booklet a little more precise, like:
Through the Fears
Music and Lyrics by Stevie Nicks
And just above every song :
Lindsey's personal and definite contribution diary:
09/06/05
Lindsey told me to cut the third verse
09/9/05
He added violins and bongos
09/15/05
He created a (beautiful) guitar riff
09/17/05
I decided to put back the third verse and he stormed off
09/22/05
We called a truce. I Keep my third verse and he can add vocal effects

And so on for about 3 pages for every song... :D

Romy

[AliP]

Out of five albums, "World Turning," "Mystified," "Isn't It Midnight," and both parts of "You And I," are the only songs on which they share a songwriting credit. And that's most likely because they actually sat down together and wrote those songs together, "from the ground up" -- each offering lyrical and melodical contributions in the process. (In the case of "Isn't It Midnight," Lindsey shares credit with Christine and Eddy for having written the music, while Christine has sole credit for the lyrics.)

Here is what Christine said about that:

Unedited Interview with Laura Gross - 1987
(about collaborating with Lindsey on the songs "Mystified" & "You & I Part I")"They were sort of weird collaborations. They weren’t sitting down in a room writing songs together. In the case of 'Mystified', that was a piano instrumental that I had, and Lindsey took it home and put some words to it and some drum patterns that we all really liked. 'You and I' was reversed. Lindsey had a completed beautiful guitar track with no vocals on it so I sort of helped with him on the melody on that."

[SteveMacD]

Out of five albums, "World Turning," "Mystified," "Isn't It Midnight," and both parts of "You And I," are the only songs on which they share a songwriting credit.
They also shared one on "Ricky," which is why I'm kind of glad they stopped their collaborations. :eek:

[SteveMacD]

However, I cannot understand how, with a song like Gypsy, more people do not believe that Lindsey deserves more than a production credit?! I do not hear the melody in the original demos. The piano demo has no melody, at least to my ears.
The original demo might not have a lot of the melody you hear, but...Somebody could easily take the lyrics and the chord progression and come up with a completely different sounding song. I could easily imagine a reggae band doing something with "Gypsy" that would never have crossed Lindsey's mind. But, the song's lyrics and chord progression would still be what Stevie wrote.
Frozen Love is unique... BUT she gave him that credit because she admired the ripping guitar solo, she has said that many times.
I thought that it was the acoustic middle section with the recorder, which was something he had done on his own, was why he got credit.
My point is, imho, Lindsey probably never asked or even expected credit, even when deserved. As for why Stevie never felt like she should credit him, well that is a can of worms.
Because, he produced her songs. His ideas were more on the production end. Even when he does make suggestions about lyrics, it's done more in regards to the asthetics of the song, which is the producer's main concern with the song. Still, she could have just as easily used another producer who would have taken her songs in a completely different direction. The fact that she keeps coming back to Lindsey, after swearing him off so many times in the past, speaks VOLUMES about how she feels about his talents.

[HomerMcvie]

They also shared one on "Ricky," which is why I'm kind of glad they stopped their collaborations. :eek:
Ricky is pretty lame, IMO. There's no real hooky chorus.

[dissention]

"Love Changes" -- words & music by Stevie Nicks.

Ha! So she takes full credit for that piece of crud.

[Johnny Stew]

Ha! So she takes full credit for that piece of crud.I'll never understand why people are so snobbish about that song. :shrug:

[dissention]

I'll never understand why people are so snobbish about that song. :shrug:

Because it's just dull. :shrug: Trite lyrics and just middle-of-the-road blandness to me. There's nothing really special about it.

[Johnny Stew]

Here is what Christine said about that:

Unedited Interview with Laura Gross - 1987
(about collaborating with Lindsey on the songs "Mystified" & "You & I Part I")"They were sort of weird collaborations. They weren’t sitting down in a room writing songs together. In the case of 'Mystified', that was a piano instrumental that I had, and Lindsey took it home and put some words to it and some drum patterns that we all really liked. 'You and I' was reversed. Lindsey had a completed beautiful guitar track with no vocals on it so I sort of helped with him on the melody on that."Oops. I was wrong about the "sat down together" part. :o

The mutual contribution to the music and/or lyrics was what I was getting at though -- making those particular songs different from the occasions when Lindsey took a simple demo and built upon it through arrangement and additional instrumentation.

[Johnny Stew]

Because it's just dull. :shrug: Trite lyrics and just middle-of-the-road blandness to me. There's nothing really special about it.Well, the production is definitely AC... but, then, I don't mind AC (as long as we're not into Phil Collins territory).

But it's Stevie's vocals and the lyrics that I really love about it. Relate to them and all that mumbo-jumbo. :)

[dissention]

But it's Stevie's vocals and the lyrics that I really love about it. Relate to them and all that mumbo-jumbo. :)

If that's what blows the sunshine up your skirt, love. I much prefer It's Only Love. Never understood why that song is so maligned.

[Jyqm]

Just to return to this thread briefly, and the discussion of who can or should get songwriting credits:

I was listening to Mystery To Me today, and I recalled one of the great injustices in Mac history: Bob Weston gets no songwriting credit for his absolutely stunning and beautiful intro to "Why." Here's clearly an instance where Bob wasn't just adding a solo to Christine's song/chord progression/melody. He wrote a completely different melody that was appended to the beginning of Chris' song, but he doesn't get explicit credit for it. Shameful! At least we all know...

[chiliD]

I always thought that if the person contributed to the LYRICS then they received the songwriting credit

In that case, Eric Clapton & George Harrison owe Ringo a ton of $$ for an entire verse of "Badge".

[bretonbanquet]

And naughty Danny Kirwan owes some cash to Rupert Brooke, who wrote the words to Dust :o

[jbrownsjr]

Based on that old demo or whatever on the DVD-Audio, I'd have to say that Christine was more responsible than any other single person for "'The Chain."

Isn't that weird?!


Yes Christine really wrote 75% of The Chain. It started with her as well.

[SteveMacD]

In that case, Eric Clapton & George Harrison owe Ringo a ton of $$ for an entire verse of "Badge".
Or Paul McCartney and John Lennon for "A Hard Day's Night" and "Eight Days A Week," which John said were totally Ringo-isms.

[Cristian]

Or Donovan, who wrote the "sky of blue, sea of green in our yellow submarine" line in the "Yellow Submarine" when Paul McCartney couldn't finish it!

Or our very own Stevie who gave Christine the "I can't walk away from you, baby if I try" line in "Oh Daddy"...

[SteveMacD]

And naughty Danny Kirwan owes some cash to Rupert Brooke, who wrote the words to Dust :o
:eek:
I just did a google search, and you're right. He totally didn't write those lyrics. Hell, he didn't even change the title. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. By all accounts, Danny had a hard time writing lyrics. Man, and THAT'S one of my favorites :(

[SteveMacD]

Or Donovan, who wrote the "sky of blue, sea of green in our yellow submarine" line in the "Yellow Submarine" when Paul McCartney couldn't finish it!
Then Dave Mason owes Donovan, too. In his Traffic song "Just For You," the first line is "A sea of green, a sky of blue."

[shackin'up]

They also shared one on "Ricky," which is why I'm kind of glad they stopped their collaborations. :eek:

I love Ricky. It's one of the greatest Christine-Lindsey's moments imo. In fact, I think it's better than 80% of the **** on Tango. As is Down Endless Street.

[jbrownsjr]

I love Ricky. It's one of the greatest Christine-Lindsey's moments imo. In fact, I think it's better than 80% of the **** on Tango. As is Down Endless Street.


I love this song too.

[macfan 57]

I love "Ricky" & "Down Endless Street" too. I think both of these songs plus "You And I, Part I" should have replaced Stevie's songs on Tango.

[tynan88]

I love "Ricky" & "Down Endless Street" too. I think both of these songs plus "You And I, Part I" should have replaced Stevie's songs on Tango.

What are these three songs? Are they Lindsey solo or demos?

[bretonbanquet]

:eek:
I just did a google search, and you're right. He totally didn't write those lyrics. Hell, he didn't even change the title. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. By all accounts, Danny had a hard time writing lyrics. Man, and THAT'S one of my favorites :(

Yeah, I was disappointed to find that out too - my Mum was listening one day and she said the lyrics were lifted from a poem... then I found out. I don't suppose that Danny was trying to take the credit for himself though - after all, he credited WH Davies for 'Dragonfly'. Maybe Danny just didn't make it clear enough to people that he borrowed the lyrics and no-one else noticed :confused:

[macfan 57]

What are these three songs? Are they Lindsey solo or demos?

"Ricky" is the B-side to the "Little Lies" single. "Down Endless Street" is the B-side to the U.K. "Family Man" single. "You And I, Part I" is the B-side to the "Big Love" single. Chris & Lindsey co-wrote "Ricky"(written about Richard Dashut) & maybe "You And I, Part I" also, but I'm not completely sure about that. I believe Lindsey was the sole writer of "Down Endless Street".

[shackin'up]

I love "Ricky" & "Down Endless Street" too. I think both of these songs plus "You And I, Part I" should have replaced Stevie's songs on Tango.

Well, one of them had to replace Little Lies for me. Can't listen to it. Hairpulling. Eating my hair. Chew on my toe nails. Peel off skin. Slowly get inside out. Not a pretty sight. It's nervewrecking.

But I agree on everything else. Still Tango would have been one of FM's weakest for me, although I love a few songs...