We have a new Pope!

[DrummerDeanna]

So there was immense confussion over the smoke...but the bells just tolled...

There is a new Pope!!

[xxxmx]

i love the antiquated ceremonies, that's about as far as my involvement/jubilation about the papal enclave goes...

though i'd love to see smoke billowing out of the capital dome everytime a law passes, everytime a congressional wrist is slapped, everytime a common neck is snapped... poetic, truly...

[ontheEdgeof17]

Even though I may not agree with certain types of religion, I still find it fascinating. My denomination is pretty close to Catholicism, so I'm definately watching.

[DrummerDeanna]

It is fascinating :nod:

and I love that my job allows me to sit here at stare at the tv...we're all just sitting here watching/listening :p

[estranged4life]

watching the 10th Anniversary of the Murrah Building bombing ceremony, UNTIL the national networks interupted...I consider that disrespectful, Especially since OUR local affiliates are all OKC based :mad:

[skcin]

watching the 10th Anniversary of the Murrah Building bombing ceremony, UNTIL the national networks interupted...I consider that disrespectful, Especially since OUR local affiliates are all OKC based :mad:


I agree, it's not appropriate to break in for that, esp. in your area. :(

[cliffdweller]

Who's the new Pope?

[chiliD]

What gets me...why do the Cardinals get to vote for the Pope...the Red Sox beat 'em four straight in the Series? :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

Who's the new Pope?


They're still waiting on the appearance and announcement of the name he's chosen.

[estranged4life]

I agree, it's not appropriate to break in for that, esp. in your area. :(

Why it's great the rest of the world can enjoy a new Pope, in OKC there's something of more importance than that...Remembering the ones lost 10 years ago.

[ontheEdgeof17]

They're still waiting on the appearance and announcement of the name he's chosen.


If it's Oprah...I will die! :lol:

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

What happened with the smoke?

Pip

[estranged4life]

What gets me...why do the Cardinals get to vote for the Pope...the Red Sox beat 'em four straight in the Series? :shrug:

the Cards have no DH, thus they get to vote :lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

It's Ratzieger or whatever :distress:

edit: Ratzinger

[ontheEdgeof17]

It's Ratzieger or whatever :distress:

edit: Ratzinger


I guess all popes have to look the same? :shrug: :)

[DrummerDeanna]

Sigh - this sucks...

I had hope....but not so much now :distress:

He was a Hitler youth you know....urg...and is way conservative...there goes any chance of the church catching up with the world...

Maybe St. Malachy was right....the end is near (of the church at least)

[estranged4life]

and some chiffon-heads were hoping for Pope Stevie, Who would wear the same damn outfit day-in-and-day-out :lol:

[wondergirl9847]

Okay, that's weird to me, but I'm not Catholic, so...

Hitler youth? :shocked:

Why can't the people vote? Laws, I guess.

[DrummerDeanna]

Okay, that's weird to me, but I'm not Catholic, so...

Hitler youth? :shocked:

Why can't the people vote? Laws, I guess.


yeah - ancient laws of the church....etc etc etc....

And yeah - I'm a bit surprised that this pope is another Eastern European...we were pulling for the guy from Nigeria but oh well...

And yeah - apparently Ratzinger was part of Hitler Youth...:shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

[Mari]

Don't know much about this pope, but about Hitler Youth: pretty much every child in that time was part of it, you didn't have much choice, really. Well, that's how I understand it.
Just heard someone on tv say you could see him as a transitional pope, since he's already 78 years old.
I thought it was pretty moving to see, even though I'm no catholic myself.

[GypsySorcerer]

Sigh - this sucks...

I had hope....but not so much now :distress:

He was a Hitler youth you know....urg...and is way conservative...there goes any chance of the church catching up with the world...

Maybe St. Malachy was right....the end is near (of the church at least)

I'm disappointed too, Deanna, but his reign will likely be short. I figured they'd elect someone older.

[strandinthewind]

I don't know anything about this guy but being part of Hitler Youth is not something I'd immediately condemn him for.


He was like six years old I think at the beginning of it. So, I am not too concerned about that. What I am concerned about is he tinks homosexuality is tantamount to a disease and that women should be in the shadows - both are things Christ never said. Such is the state of the RCC.

[xxxmx]

as a historian and religious scholar, i am destroyed by his election. looking at it from a secular point of view as i am neither catholic nor religious in general, he has proven himself time and again as an anti-semite who holds extremely prejudiced opinions regarding all who do not fit neatly into his conservative catholic mould. i am quite sure that the only guidance he will be providing will lead the catholic church farther from loving its neighbor, though i am hoping for the opposite. mel gibson must be in ecstasy...

[DrummerDeanna]

as a historian and religious scholar, i am destroyed by his election. looking at it from a secular point of view as i am neither catholic nor religious in general, he has proven himself time and again as an anti-semite who holds extremely prejudiced opinions regarding all who do not fit neatly into his conservative catholic mould. i am quite sure that the only guidance he will be providing will lead the catholic church farther from loving its neighbor, though i am hoping for the opposite. mel gibson must be in ecstasy...


:nod: And he's not a fan of inter-religious dialouge :distress: I'm very disapointed at this election...hopefully the Episcopalians will welcome me with open arms :p

----------

And I know the Hitler Youth thing is a small mark on his future - he was nevere involved in an atrocities or anything....

but still :shrug: I'm a bit bugged by it

[strandinthewind]

as a historian and religious scholar, i am destroyed by his election. looking at it from a secular point of view as i am neither catholic nor religious in general, he has proven himself time and again as an anti-semite who holds extremely prejudiced opinions regarding all who do not fit neatly into his conservative catholic mould. i am quite sure that the only guidance he will be providing will lead the catholic church farther from loving its neighbor, though i am hoping for the opposite. mel gibson must be in ecstasy...


I was thinking about the anti-semite view of him and I am not convinced by it. I think his comment on which, I think, this is based is just Catholic Dogma in that it is an extension of "only through Christ can one be saved." There could be other comments he made that I do not know about, but that one does not strike me a particularly anti-semitic. From the article Deanna posted a link to:

He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

I just do not think that is that bad or really even bad at all in the sense that it promoted hatred toward Jews.

I find far more concern in the following from the same link:

His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”. and that fact that his own country apparently cannot stand him.

But, to each their own for not liking him as I am sure we "all" agree we do not like him.

[dissention]

He was like six years old I think at the beginning of it. So, I am not too concerned about that. What I am concerned about is he tinks homosexuality is tantamount to a disease and that women should be in the shadows - both are things Christ never said. Such is the state of the RCC.

And the RNC.

[strandinthewind]

And the RNC.


I love you :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

[dissention]

I love you :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

Hopefully not in a homosexual way, you sodomite. :p

[The Tower]

But, to each their own for not liking him as I am sure we "all" agree we do not like him.

It would be nice if someone who didn't have their head up their ass was elected pope. But, in all reality, who the hell cares?

I guess if I cared my opinion would be:

The catholic church only exists because of its dogma and its control over its worshippers. So, of course, the cardinals, bishops, etc. want nothing to do with any concept of change. If they change, they will, over time, cease to exist. I think that will happen if they DON'T change as well. However, as long as there is a huge mass of ignorant people they should be fine for another hundred years or so. I think technological and scientific advances with eventually wipe them out. It'll take time, though.

Now about Miss Benedict the XVI. This dude is 78, so hopefully he'll croak soon and maybe within those few years (the shorter the better) the cardinals will decided to elect someone more enlightened.

[cliffdweller]

Sigh - this sucks...

I had hope....but not so much now :distress:

He was a Hitler youth you know....urg...and is way conservative...there goes any chance of the church catching up with the world...



Ugh. Bad news indeed.

[DrummerDeanna]

It would be nice if someone who didn't have their head up their ass was elected pope. But, in all reality, who the hell cares?

I guess if I cared my opinion would be:

The catholic church only exists because of its dogma and its control over its worshippers. So, of course, the cardinals, bishops, etc. want nothing to do with any concept of change. If they change, they will, over time, cease to exist. I think that will happen if they DON'T change as well. However, as long as there is a huge mass of ignorant people they should be fine for another hundred years or so. I think technological and scientific advances with eventually wipe them out. It'll take time, though.

Now about Miss Benedict the XVI. This dude is 78, so hopefully he'll croak soon and maybe within those few years (the shorter the better) the cardinals will decided to elect someone more enlightened.


We're not all ignorant people.....and in reality a massive amount of people care....

The Pope is no longer just the leader of the Catholic Church, but also considered a world leader - the Vatican has a massive amount of power in this world like it or not....the Catholic Church is the only religion to have its own country...it's scary how much power they actually have....

And yeah - this guy is already up there in years - not a long-termer (hopefully) - and according the phrophesies of Saint Malachy the next pope will be the last....*cue creepy music*

[cliffdweller]

However, as long as there is a huge mass of ignorant people they should be fine for another hundred years or so.

Always the ray of sunshine aren't we? :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Hopefully not in a homosexual way, you sodomite. :p

You're washing the dishes tonight dear :eek:

[seeker007nmss]

:nod: --------

And I know the Hitler Youth thing is a small mark on his future - he was nevere involved in an atrocities or anything....

but still :shrug: I'm a bit bugged by it


Want to be really bugged? Look into who helped fund Hitler's War Build up in the 30's. The Vatican Bank. :(

[estranged4life]

according the phrophesies of Saint Malachy the next pope will be the last....*cue creepy music*

WE wont be getting another Fleetwood Mac (Or Lindsey solo album for that matter) album before the planet blows up??? :shrug:

Darn...Ruined my week :lol:

[seeker007nmss]

WE wont be getting another Fleetwood Mac (Or Lindsey solo album for that matter) album before the planet blows up??? :shrug:

Darn...Ruined my week :lol:

It wouldn't be Heaven, if we couldn't hear a new albumn when we get there. :angel:

[The Tower]

We're not all ignorant people.
I didn't say that.

....and in reality a massive amount of people care....
If they really cared, they'd look at some of the things that are propagating their own misery (hello, birth control!) and realize that their church isn't as much of a help as they'd like to believe.

The Pope is no longer just the leader of the Catholic Church, but also considered a world leader
I think the world leader thing is totally subject to just exactly who is the pope. John Paul II had a lot of charisma.

the Vatican has a massive amount of power in this world like it or not...
So does the mafia, but I don't care who heads their organization either.

And yeah - this guy is already up there in years - not a long-termer (hopefully)
:thumbsup:

Always the ray of sunshine aren't we? :laugh:
Well, it's true. :shrug: :xoxo:

[DrummerDeanna]

Want to be really bugged? Look into who helped fund Hitler's War Build up in the 30's. The Vatican Bank. :(


Hey now -the church apologized for that :laugh: :rolleyes:

[Serrart]

They chose the worst, I've hoped till the last moment he wouldn't be elected, but nothing. Joseph Ratzinger, Benedict XVI, will give a hard time to everyone who wanted a more open Church. He already gave me an headache. :mad:

Romy

[wondergirl9847]

He's kinda scary looking. :shocked:

[Jessica Leigh]

:nod: And he's not a fan of inter-religious dialouge :distress: I'm very disapointed at this election...hopefully the Episcopalians will welcome me with open arms :p




come join the Lutherans Deanna! we were the first offshoot of catholicism... so we're similar... but we have our heads on straight! you don't have to go to confession and we believe that salvation is just a gift God has given us... so you don't have to be good all the time!

[ontheEdgeof17]

come join the Lutherans Deanna! we were the first offshoot of catholicism... so we're similar... but we have our heads on straight! you don't have to go to confession and we believe that salvation is just a gift God has given us... so you don't have to be good all the time!


I'm a Lutheran, too. Very Liberal, we are. :nod:

[Jessica Leigh]

I'm a Lutheran, too. Very Liberal, we are. :nod:

yeah... and no guilt either!

[gldstwmn]

Who's the new Pope?

A former Hitler youth whose father was a Nazi. Cardinal Ratzinger is also a member of Opus Dei and a hardline conservative. He is 78 years old.
According to media reports, he is actually nice in person. :wavey:

[LilyRose]

I went to a Lutheran church for preschool. Does that count? ;)

Actually, my dad is Catholic and my mom is Lutheran. I'm neither. I'm Susie.


Susie

[gldstwmn]

What gets me...why do the Cardinals get to vote for the Pope...the Red Sox beat 'em four straight in the Series? :shrug:

Larry Walker sure did hit a nice homer in that last game though. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

He was like six years old I think at the beginning of it.

He served in the war and at one point was a guard at the BMW factory where Jewish slaves from Dachau were sent to work.
He deserted in April 1944 and ulitmately wound up as a POW in the hands of the Americans.

[gldstwmn]

as a historian and religious scholar, i am destroyed by his election. looking at it from a secular point of view as i am neither catholic nor religious in general, he has proven himself time and again as an anti-semite who holds extremely prejudiced opinions regarding all who do not fit neatly into his conservative catholic mould. i am quite sure that the only guidance he will be providing will lead the catholic church farther from loving its neighbor, though i am hoping for the opposite. mel gibson must be in ecstasy...

Word. :nod:

[gldstwmn]

Want to be really bugged? Look into who helped fund Hitler's War Build up in the 30's. The Vatican Bank. :(

And Bush's grandfather.

[strandinthewind]

And Bush's grandfather.

and most of America either by owning the company, working for it, collecting dividends from it, and so on :eek:

(couldn't resist :wavey: )

Also, I was mistaken, he was six when Hitler came to power. Here, for those who want to read it, is the text of the article Deanna posted a link to - I think it is good article:

April 17, 2005

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome

THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally.

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.

“John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

“If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.”

The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951.

“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.”

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981.

His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”.

He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%.

As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.”

One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667_2,00.html

[gldstwmn]

and most of America either by owning the company, working for it, collecting dividends from it, and so on :eek:

(couldn't resist :wavey: )

Bull****. Prove it. I submit you cannot.

[amber]

Well, we know for sure that IBM was doing business with Nazi germany. And - Ford? I'm pretty sure a lot of American companies were. :shrug: But, probably Strand can find/remember more evidence.

[markolas]

He'll always be Rat-zinger to me. So glad I converted to Buddhism. I wonder if I can get them to tear up my baptism records.

[strandinthewind]

Bull****. Prove it. I submit you cannot.

Okay - no American companies were in business with the Nazi's. Just Bush's grandfather :laugh:

But since you asked and I am a gentleman:

Ford & the Nazi War Efforts

Henry Ford was no Oskar Schindler
by Joshua Karliner, CorpWatch
November 1st, 1998


The Ford Motor Company's commercial-free sponsorship of NBC's airing of Schindler's List, the epic movie about the Holocaust, was a class act. Nevertheless, it would be remiss of us here at CorpWatch, not to point out Ford's contribution to Nazi war efforts.

The following is excerpted from a report printed by the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary in 1974:

The activities of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler prior to and during World War II...are instructive. At that time, these three firms dominated motor vehicle production in both the United States and Germany. Due to its mass production capabilities, automobile manufacturing is one of the most crucial industries with respect to national defense. As a result, these firms retained the economic and political power to affect the shape of governmental relations both within and between these nations in a manner which maximized corporate global profits. In short, they were private governments unaccountable to the citizens of any country yet possessing tremendous influence over the course of war and peace in the world. The substantial contribution of these firms to the American war effort in terms of tanks, aircraft components, and other military equipment is widely acknowledged. Less well known are the simultaneous contributions of their foreign subsidiaries to the Axis Powers. In sum, they maximized profits by supplying both sides with the materiel needed to conduct the war.

During the 1920's and 1930's, the Big Three automakers undertook an extensive program of multinational expansion...By the mid-1930's, these three American companies owned automotive subsidiaries throughout Europe and the Far East; many of their largest facilities were located in the politically sensitive nations of Germany, Poland, Rumania, Austria, Hungary, Latvia, and Japan...Due to their concentrated economic power over motor vehicle production in both Allied and Axis territories, the Big Three inevitably became major factors in the preparations and progress of the war. In Germany, for example, General Motors and Ford became an integral part of the Nazi war efforts. GM's plants in Germany built thousands of bomber and jet fighter propulsion systems for the Luftwaffe at the same time that its American plants produced aircraft engines for the U.S. Army Air Corps....

Ford was also active in Nazi Germany's prewar preparations. In 1938, for instance, it opened a truck assembly plant in Berlin whose "real purpose," according to U.S. Army Intelligence, was producing "troop transport-type" vehicles for the Wehrmacht. That year Ford's chief executive received the Nazi German Eagle (first class)....

The outbreak of war in September 1939 resulted inevitably in the full conversion by GM and Ford of their Axis plants to the production of military aircraft and trucks.... On the ground, GM and Ford subsidiaries built nearly 90 percent of the armored "mule" 3-ton half-trucks and more than 70 percent of the Reich's medium and heavy-duty trucks. These vehicles, according to American intelligence reports, served as "the backbone of the German Army transportation system."....

After the cessation of hostilities, GM and Ford demanded reparations from the U.S. Government for wartime damages sustained by their Axis facilities as a result of Allied bombing... Ford received a little less than $1 million, primarily as a result of damages sustained by its military truck complex at Cologne...

Due to their multinational dominance of motor vehicle production, GM and Ford became principal suppliers for the forces of fascism as well as for the forces of democracy. It may, of course, be argued that participating in both sides of an international conflict, like the common corporate practice of investing in both political parties before an election, is an appropriate corporate activity. Had the Nazis won, General Motors and Ford would have appeared impeccably Nazi; as Hitler lost, these companies were able to re-emerge impeccably American. In either case, the viability of these corporations and the interests of their respective stockholders would have been preserved.
Extracted from Bradford C. Snell, American Ground Transport: A Proposal for Restructuring the Automobile, Truck, Bus and Rail Industries. Report presented to the Committee of the Judiciary, Subcommittee on Antitrust and Monopoly, United States Senate, February 26, 1974, United States Government Printing Office, Washington, 1974, pp. 16-24.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=4368

and then these

http://news.com.com/2009-1082-269157.html

http://www.marxist.com/usa/partners_in_crime.html

http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_nastybiz.html

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/rockefeller.html

_____________________________________________

Thus, many Americans profited from these companies profits. Where do we draw the line. Was the person who supplied steel to the man who sold it to the Nazi's less culpable? How about the laborer who made the rivets here to he sold to the Nazi's? How about the donations to the Catholic Church? America, and most of it, profitted one way of the other off of the Nazi's. So, to place Bush's grandfather in that league alone is patently unfair. This does not in any way make what Bush's grandfather did any better. It just shows that much of America was in bed with the Nazis.

[markolas]

You know, you don't have to go back 65 years to dig up dirt on this man. He's done things that are much more blatantly disgusting in the last six months.

[amber]

So, to place Bush's grandfather in that league alone is patently unfair. This does not in any way make what Bush's grandfather did any better. It just shows that much of America was in bed with the Nazis.
I'm not sure if I'd call 3-4 corporations "much of America", though.

[gldstwmn]

Okay - no American companies were in business with the Nazi's. Just Bush's grandfather :laugh:


I never said that. But twist away if it makes you feel better. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

I'm not sure if I'd call 3-4 corporations "much of America", though.

Brown Brothers Harriman laundered money for the Nazis. That's a pretty direct connection. If that doesn't define the term blood money, I don't know what does.

[amber]

Brown Brothers Harriman laundered money for the Nazis. That's a pretty direct connection. If that doesn't define the term blood money, I don't know what does.
Um, okay, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. :confused:
Strand was saying that "much of America" was involved with the Nazis, then I said "I'm not sure 3-4 Corporations constitutes 'much of America'" so...uh....

[strandinthewind]

I never said that. But twist away if it makes you feel better. :shrug:

When in response the the post sating "Look into who helped fund Hitler's War Build up in the 30's" you responded by naming Bush's grandfather. I responded to you by noting that many Americans did as well one way or another. When you cried BS to that, I posted those articles showing how American companies helped as well. So, I was responding to that. If I misunderstood you, :sorry: :sorry: :sorry:

[strandinthewind]

I'm not sure if I'd call 3-4 corporations "much of America", though.

It was far deeper than that. Do a google search for this. The anount of money that we put into that country one way or another is staggering, and Americans laughed all the way to the bank during the 30's and some of the 40's. I mean how many people worked for these companies and knew what was going on. How many pension funds had these stocks and the fund holders knew it. How many steel mills, iron plants, etc., supplied them with material with knowledge of where it was going? I think that is eye opening.

[sparky]

I suppose it's neither here nor there, but the new pope bears a striking resemblance to Yoda. I am now dying to hear him speak.

[strandinthewind]

I suppose it's neither here nor there, but the new pope bears a striking resemblance to Yoda. I am now dying to hear him speak.

LMMFAO - I was thinking the same thing but could not put my finger on it (ewwww) :xoxo:

[seeker007nmss]

It was far deeper than that. Do a google search for this. The anount of money that we put into that country one way or another is staggering, and Americans laughed all the way to the bank during the 30's and some of the 40's. I mean how many people worked for these companies and knew what was going on. How many pension funds had these stocks and the fund holders knew it. How many steel mills, iron plants, etc., supplied them with material with knowledge of where it was going? I think that is eye opening.


But then again, noone had any idea, at the time, of the extent of where it would evidently go. (Holocaust...etc) Since that would be farther in the future. Not defending, just easy to see in hindsight.

[Johnny Stew]

I suppose it's neither here nor there, but the new pope bears a striking resemblance to Yoda. I am now dying to hear him speak.We used to have a semi-regular visiting priest who truly did look and sound like Yoda.

To this day, I have absolutely no recollection of what the man's name was, because my brother and I only ever referred to him as Father Yoda. :laugh:

I have to say that with the appointment of this new Pope, I have never been happier to call myself a Fallen Catholic.

[sparky]

LMMFAO - I was thinking the same thing but could not put my finger on it (ewwww) :xoxo:

Well, if that ever happens, I want a FULL REPORT. :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

But then again, noone had any idea, at the time, of the extent of where it would evidently go. (Holocaust...etc) Since that would be farther in the future. Not defending, just easy to see in hindsight.

I agree most did not. I think once it got to around 1938 or 39 most did though. That whole period of history is fascinating to me. I know the autrocities and hate them, but it was the herd mentality people just blindly adhered to. VERY scary. OF course there was no real mass media then save for radio, which not everyone had.

[strandinthewind]

Well, if that ever happens, I want a FULL REPORT. :xoxo:

You got it!

[gldstwmn]

Um, okay, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. :confused:
Strand was saying that "much of America" was involved with the Nazis, then I said "I'm not sure 3-4 Corporations constitutes 'much of America'" so...uh....

Brown Brothers Harriman is Bush's grandfather's corporation. It is a direct connection whereas people that worked on the assembly line would not be a direct connection. So I was agreeing with you. Capice?

[gldstwmn]

When in response the the post sating "Look into who helped fund Hitler's War Build up in the 30's" you responded by naming Bush's grandfather. I responded to you by noting that many Americans did as well one way or another. When you cried BS to that, I posted those articles showing how American companies helped as well. So, I was responding to that. If I misunderstood you, :sorry: :sorry: :sorry:

Well, I doubt you misunderstood as you are far too intelligent for that. :)
Working on an assembly line and not knowing where those products are going is not quite the same as laundering money for identified clients that are known Nazis, no?

[strandinthewind]

Well, I doubt you misunderstood as you are far too intelligent for that. :)
Working on an assembly line and not knowing where those products are going is not quite the same as laundering money for identified clients that are known Nazis, no?

Well, in a way yes. But, if someone worked making rivets and knew those rivets were going to Germany - they must have some guilt if they knew what Germany was doing with them. Similarly, people who owned Ford stock profited off that. I get that it is not the same as masterminding it, which probably is more evil. But, it still has some culpability!

AND - thanks for the intelligence comment :xoxo:

[gldstwmn]

It was far deeper than that.

Your argument only cited Ford, GM and related subsidiaries. :shrug: What did you expect her to say?
My father, nor my uncles, whom all served, fought the Nazis but did nothing to benefit them by working for any of these corporations. And with an Irish Catholic family, I have many uncles, second cousins, cousins, etc.
These men were your average middle class working men for the time period in question.
So, your argument does not hold water but merely serves as an excuse to apologize for a very select group of people who would never in their lives knowingly help Hitler.
Your argument is quite disengenuous and I suspect that you know it.
The bankers at Brown Brothers Harriman knew exactly who their client was and who they were helping.
A great deal of their present fortune is derived from that. They know it. However, it is not convenient for them to admit it.

[strandinthewind]

Your argument only cited Ford, GM and related subsidiaries. :shrug: What did you expect her to say?
My father, nor my uncles, whom all served, fought the Nazis but did nothing to benefit them by working for any of these corporations. And with an Irish Catholic family, I have many uncles, second cousins, cousins, etc.
These men were your average middle class working men for the time period in question.
So, your argument does not hold water but merely serves as an excuse to apologize for a very select group of people who would never in their lives knowingly help Hitler.
Your argument is quite disengenuos and I suspect that you know it.
The bankers at Brown Brothers Harriman knew exactly who their client was and who they were helping.
A great deal of their present fortune is derived from that. They know it. However, it is not convenient for them to admit it.

I thought I posted other articles about other companies like IBM and some banks. But, if I did not, those are available, as I pointed out, via a google search.

Also, I apologize for no one nor am I being disingenuous. I am just saying that many people here made money off of working for places they knew were sending the product to Germany, who they knew was killing Jews and others in camps. Same for inverstors in those companies. I am saying to me, that has some culpability. I am not saying nor have I ever said that the perpetrators and masterminds were innocent or justified by this. In fact, I said the opposite :shrug: But, if you want to think they were all innocents despite that knowledge - who amn I to keep you down :cool:

[seeker007nmss]

I agree most did not. I think once it got to around 1938 or 39 most did though. That whole period of history is fascinating to me. I know the autrocities and hate them, but it was the herd mentality people just blindly adhered to. VERY scary. OF course there was no real mass media then save for radio, which not everyone had.


A book you might like (I am just part way through it) is called "The House that Hitler built". It was written by an Australian in 1938 and covers the time he was there from 1935-1937. It is interesting to read as it gives background to the times. He obviously does not know what will occur in just a few short years, but he perceptions of what is to come is very close.

[strandinthewind]

A book you might like (I am just part way through it) is called "The House that Hitler built". It was written by an Australian in 1938 and covers the time he was there from 1935-1937. It is interesting to read as it gives background to the times. He obviously does not know what will occur in just a few short years, but he perceptions of what is to come is very close.

THANKS!!!!

I will check it out!

[seeker007nmss]

I am just saying that many people here made money off of working for places they knew were sending the product to Germany, who they knew was killing Jews and others in camps. :

No one knew the extent of the camps until after the war. Even those living near the camps were ignorant of the full extent of what was happening there.
The manufacture of the ovens used in Auschwietz was a JEWISH firm, I highly doubt they knew what they were used for.

[strandinthewind]

No one knew the extent of the camps until after the war. Even those living near the camps were ignorant of the full extent of what was happening there.

I thought that was not completely settled in that people here knew enough that they did not want to go tot he camps and much of Europe that was threatened by Hitler tried to get here, but had difficulty doing so. I could be wrong though.

[seeker007nmss]

I thought that was not completely settled in that people here knew enough that they did not want to go tot he camps and much of Europe that was threatened by Hitler tried to get here, but had difficulty doing so. I could be wrong though.


Hard to really know 60 years out. The history gets blurred and changed as time goes by.

[Moony]

couldn't they find a better looking guy? :shrug:


































j/k ;)

[Johnny Stew]

couldn't they find a better looking guy? :shrug: ;)Well, pure evil is ugly. :angel:

[amber]

couldn't they find a better looking guy? :shrug:


































j/k ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Moony]

Well, pure evil is ugly. :angel:
too true, le stew. :)

[catinthedark]

And here I thought there were six pages of dialogue and debate (and despair) over Pope Benedict. :laugh:

Seriously, though, I find his election seriously depressing, and even a little frightening. It proves the Church is not ready at all to move forward in any kind of thought or doctrination. Ratzinger is more strict than even John Paul was - not only will he not entertain the thought of contraception or the ordination of women (never mind equality of gays and lesbians), he won't even support the counselling of pregnant teenaged girls. "No, dear, an abortion would be a sin. But are we going to help you? Give you the tools and/or means to help you raise a healthy baby? Burn in hell, young slut!"

Now, don't even get me started on the rest of his past. Though I will conded that it is possible that he did not voluntarily join the Hitler Youth; it was pretty much forced on all German youth at the time. I don't have enough information about that.

But, as cardinal and right hand man to Pope John Paul, he also basically struck down Liberation Policy (is that what it was called?) - which was the only hope that those in third world or poverty stricken areas could count on help from the Church.

And. You don't earn a nickname like God's Rottweiler or The Enforcer for nothing. He's never even acknowledged the sexual abuse by priests. This is not a step forward. No wonder there was confusion about that smoke. Maybe even it didn't want to burn white. Black day for the Catholic Church. And I believe his election will only serve to drive more and more Catholics from the Church.

[EnchantedSLN]

Well, pure evil is ugly. :angel:

I saw him on the news today and thought "Huh? Zell Miller?" :laugh:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/[email protected]/2690961.jpg

[Johnny Stew]

I saw him on the news today and thought "Huh? Zell Miller?" :laugh:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/[email protected]/2690961.jpgTHAT got a HUGE belly-laugh out of me!

Thanks, Tiff, I needed that! :xoxo:

[amber]

I saw him on the news today and thought "Huh? Zell Miller?" :laugh:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/[email protected]/2690961.jpg
AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tommer]

i think that congratulations would be in order to all those new unwanted babies waiting to be born, all the future victims of AIDS in africa, and oppressed queers worldwide.

as for the nazi past, i guess there are far worse cases than his amongst germans in this age group. i don't really follow catholic morals, so i'm not in the position to pass judgement, but still, a former Hitlerjugend and slave-workers guard? come on... this is a man who's supposed to be not only a moral guide, but also some kind of a holy saint! although i honestly believe in forgiveness, there are certain things one can do which can be forgiven, yet would still eternally prevent him from being morally "pure" again. if armed guarding of hungry slave workers doesn't prevent one from being the holiest person on earth, then maybe catholicism is indeed better than i thaught.
maybe i should convert. :D

[strandinthewind]

a combover is just NEVER pretty or a good idea - esp. in silver and when you, as Sparky touched upon, look like Yoda :cool:

[xxxmx]

ahhh, all of this talk about hitler...

:woohoo: happy birthday, adolph! :woohoo:

[DrummerDeanna]

And. You don't earn a nickname like God's Rottweiler or The Enforcer for nothing. He's never even acknowledged the sexual abuse by priests. This is not a step forward. No wonder there was confusion about that smoke. Maybe even it didn't want to burn white. Black day for the Catholic Church. And I believe his election will only serve to drive more and more Catholics from the Church.


:nod: And I would be one of those going away from the church....there is now NO hope of me following anything the Vatican decrees....screw it - I'm going to the Lutherans or Episcopalians...

BTW - Thanks Jessica for the info on the Lutherans..I hadn't even thought about them to be honest....

The search commences to find a new religion :p

[ontheEdgeof17]

BTW - Thanks Jessica for the info on the Lutherans..I hadn't even thought about them to be honest....

The search commences to find a new religion :p


I may diss on religion a lot, but my Lutheran church accepts me for who I am. Never have I heard a sermon judging ppl for who they are. We don't talk about homosexuality or abortion in a one sided view. We go from it from both sides. I like that about this denomination. It makes me want to go back.

[DrummerDeanna]

I may diss on religion a lot, but my Lutheran church accepts me for who I am. Never have I heard a sermon judging ppl for who they are. We don't talk about homosexuality or abortion in a one sided view. We go from it from both sides. I like that about this denomination. It makes me want to go back.


That is appealing :nod: I definitely want to find a church that is more liberal - and there are some liberal Catholic sects which aren't sanctioned or recognized by the Vatican :rolleyes: But I've been thinking for a while that it's time for me to move on....

I think everyone can diss on religion a lot - I'm guilty of it to some degree...because as longs as there are extremist religious fanatics out there - there will be stuff to diss on....

My thinking is? These uber-Christian folks who are all hateful and mean - they're TOTALLY missing the WHOLE point....:nod:

[takenbythesky]

.....................................

[gldstwmn]

I thought I posted other articles about other companies like IBM and some banks. But, if I did not, those are available, as I pointed out, via a google search.

Also, I apologize for no one nor am I being disingenuous. I am just saying that many people here made money off of working for places they knew were sending the product to Germany, who they knew was killing Jews and others in camps. Same for inverstors in those companies. I am saying to me, that has some culpability. I am not saying nor have I ever said that the perpetrators and masterminds were innocent or justified by this. In fact, I said the opposite :shrug: But, if you want to think they were all innocents despite that knowledge - who amn I to keep you down :cool:

Again, an assembly line worker doesn't have the culpability of a CEO. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

Pope's Position on Major Issues Facing The Church
(San Jose Mercury News, 4/20/05)

*On Women in the church: WIll continue to follow the traditional views held by Pope John Paul II and others in the church, supporting a ban on the ordination of women.

*On Authority: Favors a traditional, orthodox approach to the church as authority figure to the world's 1.1 billion Catholics, which might not play well in the U.S. and Europe

*On Church sex scandals: Initially said media coverage of the scandal was a "planned campaign." Has taken a stronger stance lately, denouncing the "filth" in the church.

*On homosexuality: Condemns attacks against gays. Views homosexuality as a "more or less strong tendency ordered to an intrinisic moral evil."

*On other social issues: Opposes birth control; favors priestly celibacy. He said it's allowable to deny Communion to politicians who support abortion and euthanasia.
------------

I, personally, am not too crazy about this pope.

I don't understand why ordaining women as priests is a bad idea, nor is it something that would affect the Catholic Church in a negative fashion. I suppose that allowing women to be ordained as priests would be an unfamiliar thing, stepping outside of the Church's comfort/safety zone. Despite a Jesuit columnist's reassurance that "[women] are running the Church: they are leading Masses and [act as] mothers and teachers," I feel that equal and equal opportunity should be afforded to anyone when it comes to religion--male or female, Catholic or non-Catholic.

I am worried that Benedict XVI in the past said that the sexual abuse scandals were the result of a "planned campaign." This is a problem that needs to be urgently addressed by those in power in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, the impact and severity of those incidents are hardly felt way over in the Vatican; despite Bernard Law's involvement in the clergy sex abuse crisis in Boston, was given a role of honor in the mourning for John Paul II. This cannot and should not go on. I do not care what anyone else says, sexually abusing children is wrong and in my mind unforgiveable.

Homosexuality as a "more or less strong tendency ordered to an intrinsic evil?" If that is true, then there are many many "evil" people in this world who are committing/spreading "evilness" by just loving and being true to themselves. It is nice to condemn attacks against gays, to say that they should not be harmed; that sentiment holds little value to me when the same man claims homosexuality to be linked to a person's "intrinsic evil."

The above paragraph does not so much hurt me. I am afraid that it (and attitudes like it in the Church) will harm millions of homosexuals raised as Catholics. Being told you are wrong and somehow evil must be devastating and scarring to anyone. Of course I did not expect the next pope to reach out to homosexuals, either. We may have to wait a century or two for that to happen.

I think birth control is a very, very, very good idea. There are many children in this world; I fail to see how preventing the male and female gametes from forming a zygote is harmful. There are many sexually transmitted diseases in this world, and I think that birth control can help prevent the spreading of those diseases.

Hm...That's about all I have to say for now. I'm sure Pope Benedict XIV has his good qualities, too.


Wow. How old are you really? :laugh: You always have such great things to say :D

And ITA agree with what you said above...

The birth control really irks me - the Catholic Church is so dangerous for developing countries and countries where poverty is rampant because of their anti-contraception stance....

Anyway ...good post, I enjoyed reading it :D

[strandinthewind]

Again, an assembly line worker doesn't have the culpability of a CEO. :shrug:

I know. I am not saying they do. That is why I went into differing degrees of culpability. The assembly line worker or the random investor does not actiually deal with the Nazi's like Oak did.

Interestingly, I pulled up some more stuff on Grandpappy Shrub (oak perhaps :laugh: ) - he and the companies he was in got off scott free with a mere relatively insignificant loss of assets. No two ways about that, esp. considering the way I read the state of the law at the time (Trading with the Enemy Act) .

Here are some sites for those interested:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html -

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president

Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.

The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

Tantalising


Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.

Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands. More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. The ownership of CSSC changed hands several times in the 1930s, but documents from the US National Archive declassified last year link Bush to CSSC, although it is not clear if he and UBC were still involved in the company when Thyssen's American assets were seized in 1942.

Three sets of archives spell out Prescott Bush's involvement. All three are readily available, thanks to the efficient US archive system and a helpful and dedicated staff at both the Library of Congress in Washington and the National Archives at the University of Maryland.

The first set of files, the Harriman papers in the Library of Congress, show that Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder of a number of companies involved with Thyssen.

The second set of papers, which are in the National Archives, are contained in vesting order number 248 which records the seizure of the company assets. What these files show is that on October 20 1942 the alien property custodian seized the assets of the UBC, of which Prescott Bush was a director. Having gone through the books of the bank, further seizures were made against two affiliates, the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation. By November, the Silesian-American Company, another of Prescott Bush's ventures, had also been seized.

The third set of documents, also at the National Archives, are contained in the files on IG Farben, who was prosecuted for war crimes.

A report issued by the Office of Alien Property Custodian in 1942 stated of the companies that "since 1939, these (steel and mining) properties have been in possession of and have been operated by the German government and have undoubtedly been of considerable assistance to that country's war effort".

Prescott Bush, a 6ft 4in charmer with a rich singing voice, was the founder of the Bush political dynasty and was once considered a potential presidential candidate himself. Like his son, George, and grandson, George W, he went to Yale where he was, again like his descendants, a member of the secretive and influential Skull and Bones student society. He was an artillery captain in the first world war and married Dorothy Walker, the daughter of George Herbert Walker, in 1921.

In 1924, his father-in-law, a well-known St Louis investment banker, helped set him up in business in New York with Averill Harriman, the wealthy son of railroad magnate E H Harriman in New York, who had gone into banking.

One of the first jobs Walker gave Bush was to manage UBC. Bush was a founding member of the bank and the incorporation documents, which list him as one of seven directors, show he owned one share in UBC worth $125.

The bank was set up by Harriman and Bush's father-in-law to provide a US bank for the Thyssens, Germany's most powerful industrial family.

August Thyssen, the founder of the dynasty had been a major contributor to Germany's first world war effort and in the 1920s, he and his sons Fritz and Heinrich established a network of overseas banks and companies so their assets and money could be whisked offshore if threatened again.

By the time Fritz Thyssen inherited the business empire in 1926, Germany's economic recovery was faltering. After hearing Adolf Hitler speak, Thyssen became mesmerised by the young firebrand. He joined the Nazi party in December 1931 and admits backing Hitler in his autobiography, I Paid Hitler, when the National Socialists were still a radical fringe party. He stepped in several times to bail out the struggling party: in 1928 Thyssen had bought the Barlow Palace on Briennerstrasse, in Munich, which Hitler converted into the Brown House, the headquarters of the Nazi party. The money came from another Thyssen overseas institution, the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvarrt in Rotterdam.

By the late 1930s, Brown Brothers Harriman, which claimed to be the world's largest private investment bank, and UBC had bought and shipped millions of dollars of gold, fuel, steel, coal and US treasury bonds to Germany, both feeding and financing Hitler's build-up to war.

Between 1931 and 1933 UBC bought more than $8m worth of gold, of which $3m was shipped abroad. According to documents seen by the Guardian, after UBC was set up it transferred $2m to BBH accounts and between 1924 and 1940 the assets of UBC hovered around $3m, dropping to $1m only on a few occasions.

In 1941, Thyssen fled Germany after falling out with Hitler but he was captured in France and detained for the remainder of the war.

There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s and many of America's best-known business names invested heavily in the German economic recovery. However, everything changed after Germany invaded Poland in 1939. Even then it could be argued that BBH was within its rights continuing business relations with the Thyssens until the end of 1941 as the US was still technically neutral until the attack on Pearl Harbor. The trouble started on July 30 1942 when the New York Herald-Tribune ran an article entitled "Hitler's Angel Has $3m in US Bank". UBC's huge gold purchases had raised suspicions that the bank was in fact a "secret nest egg" hidden in New York for Thyssen and other Nazi bigwigs. The Alien Property Commission (APC) launched an investigation.

There is no dispute over the fact that the US government seized a string of assets controlled by BBH - including UBC and SAC - in the autumn of 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy act. What is in dispute is if Harriman, Walker and Bush did more than own these companies on paper.

Erwin May, a treasury attache and officer for the department of investigation in the APC, was assigned to look into UBC's business. The first fact to emerge was that Roland Harriman, Prescott Bush and the other directors didn't actually own their shares in UBC but merely held them on behalf of Bank voor Handel. Strangely, no one seemed to know who owned the Rotterdam-based bank, including UBC's president.

May wrote in his report of August 16 1941: "Union Banking Corporation, incorporated August 4 1924, is wholly owned by the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V of Rotterdam, the Netherlands. My investigation has produced no evidence as to the ownership of the Dutch bank. Mr Cornelis [sic] Lievense, president of UBC, claims no knowledge as to the ownership of the Bank voor Handel but believes it possible that Baron Heinrich Thyssen, brother of Fritz Thyssen, may own a substantial interest."

May cleared the bank of holding a golden nest egg for the Nazi leaders but went on to describe a network of companies spreading out from UBC across Europe, America and Canada, and how money from voor Handel travelled to these companies through UBC.

By September May had traced the origins of the non-American board members and found that Dutchman HJ Kouwenhoven - who met with Harriman in 1924 to set up UBC - had several other jobs: in addition to being the managing director of voor Handel he was also the director of the August Thyssen bank in Berlin and a director of Fritz Thyssen's Union Steel Works, the holding company that controlled Thyssen's steel and coal mine empire in Germany.

Within a few weeks, Homer Jones, the chief of the APC investigation and research division sent a memo to the executive committee of APC recommending the US government vest UBC and its assets. Jones named the directors of the bank in the memo, including Prescott Bush's name, and wrote: "Said stock is held by the above named individuals, however, solely as nominees for the Bank voor Handel, Rotterdam, Holland, which is owned by one or more of the Thyssen family, nationals of Germany and Hungary. The 4,000 shares hereinbefore set out are therefore beneficially owned and help for the interests of enemy nationals, and are vestible by the APC," according to the memo from the National Archives seen by the Guardian.

Red-handed


Jones recommended that the assets be liquidated for the benefit of the government, but instead UBC was maintained intact and eventually returned to the American shareholders after the war. Some claim that Bush sold his share in UBC after the war for $1.5m - a huge amount of money at the time - but there is no documentary evidence to support this claim. No further action was ever taken nor was the investigation continued, despite the fact UBC was caught red-handed operating a American shell company for the Thyssen family eight months after America had entered the war and that this was the bank that had partly financed Hitler's rise to power.

The most tantalising part of the story remains shrouded in mystery: the connection, if any, between Prescott Bush, Thyssen, Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC) and Auschwitz.

Thyssen's partner in United Steel Works, which had coal mines and steel plants across the region, was Friedrich Flick, another steel magnate who also owned part of IG Farben, the powerful German chemical company.

Flick's plants in Poland made heavy use of slave labour from the concentration camps in Poland. According to a New York Times article published in March 18 1934 Flick owned two-thirds of CSSC while "American interests" held the rest.

The US National Archive documents show that BBH's involvement with CSSC was more than simply holding the shares in the mid-1930s. Bush's friend and fellow "bonesman" Knight Woolley, another partner at BBH, wrote to Averill Harriman in January 1933 warning of problems with CSSC after the Poles started their drive to nationalise the plant. "The Consolidated Silesian Steel Company situation has become increasingly complicated, and I have accordingly brought in Sullivan and Cromwell, in order to be sure that our interests are protected," wrote Knight. "After studying the situation Foster Dulles is insisting that their man in Berlin get into the picture and obtain the information which the directors here should have. You will recall that Foster is a director and he is particularly anxious to be certain that there is no liability attaching to the American directors."

But the ownership of the CSSC between 1939 when the Germans invaded Poland and 1942 when the US government vested UBC and SAC is not clear.

"SAC held coal mines and definitely owned CSSC between 1934 and 1935, but when SAC was vested there was no trace of CSSC. All concrete evidence of its ownership disappears after 1935 and there are only a few traces in 1938 and 1939," says Eva Schweitzer, the journalist and author whose book, America and the Holocaust, is published next month.

Silesia was quickly made part of the German Reich after the invasion, but while Polish factories were seized by the Nazis, those belonging to the still neutral Americans (and some other nationals) were treated more carefully as Hitler was still hoping to persuade the US to at least sit out the war as a neutral country. Schweitzer says American interests were dealt with on a case-by-case basis. The Nazis bought some out, but not others.

The two Holocaust survivors suing the US government and the Bush family for a total of $40bn in compensation claim both materially benefited from Auschwitz slave labour during the second world war.

Kurt Julius Goldstein, 87, and Peter Gingold, 85, began a class action in America in 2001, but the case was thrown out by Judge Rosemary Collier on the grounds that the government cannot be held liable under the principle of "state sovereignty".

Jan Lissmann, one of the lawyers for the survivors, said: "President Bush withdrew President Bill Clinton's signature from the treaty [that founded the court] not only to protect Americans, but also to protect himself and his family."

Lissmann argues that genocide-related cases are covered by international law, which does hold governments accountable for their actions. He claims the ruling was invalid as no hearing took place.

In their claims, Mr Goldstein and Mr Gingold, honorary chairman of the League of Anti-fascists, suggest the Americans were aware of what was happening at Auschwitz and should have bombed the camp.

The lawyers also filed a motion in The Hague asking for an opinion on whether state sovereignty is a valid reason for refusing to hear their case. A ruling is expected within a month.

The petition to The Hague states: "From April 1944 on, the American Air Force could have destroyed the camp with air raids, as well as the railway bridges and railway lines from Hungary to Auschwitz. The murder of about 400,000 Hungarian Holocaust victims could have been prevented."

The case is built around a January 22 1944 executive order signed by President Franklin Roosevelt calling on the government to take all measures to rescue the European Jews. The lawyers claim the order was ignored because of pressure brought by a group of big American companies, including BBH, where Prescott Bush was a director.

Lissmann said: "If we have a positive ruling from the court it will cause [president] Bush huge problems and make him personally liable to pay compensation."

The US government and the Bush family deny all the claims against them.

In addition to Eva Schweitzer's book, two other books are about to be published that raise the subject of Prescott Bush's business history. The author of the second book, to be published next year, John Loftus, is a former US attorney who prosecuted Nazi war criminals in the 70s. Now living in St Petersburg, Florida and earning his living as a security commentator for Fox News and ABC radio, Loftus is working on a novel which uses some of the material he has uncovered on Bush. Loftus stressed that what Prescott Bush was involved in was just what many other American and British businessmen were doing at the time.

"You can't blame Bush for what his grandfather did any more than you can blame Jack Kennedy for what his father did - bought Nazi stocks - but what is important is the cover-up, how it could have gone on so successfully for half a century, and does that have implications for us today?" he said.

"This was the mechanism by which Hitler was funded to come to power, this was the mechanism by which the Third Reich's defence industry was re-armed, this was the mechanism by which Nazi profits were repatriated back to the American owners, this was the mechanism by which investigations into the financial laundering of the Third Reich were blunted," said Loftus, who is vice-chairman of the Holocaust Museum in St Petersburg.

"The Union Banking Corporation was a holding company for the Nazis, for Fritz Thyssen," said Loftus. "At various times, the Bush family has tried to spin it, saying they were owned by a Dutch bank and it wasn't until the Nazis took over Holland that they realised that now the Nazis controlled the apparent company and that is why the Bush supporters claim when the war was over they got their money back. Both the American treasury investigations and the intelligence investigations in Europe completely bely that, it's absolute horse****. They always knew who the ultimate beneficiaries were."

"There is no one left alive who could be prosecuted but they did get away with it," said Loftus. "As a former federal prosecutor, I would make a case for Prescott Bush, his father-in-law (George Walker) and Averill Harriman [to be prosecuted] for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They remained on the boards of these companies knowing that they were of financial benefit to the nation of Germany."

Loftus said Prescott Bush must have been aware of what was happening in Germany at the time. "My take on him was that he was a not terribly successful in-law who did what Herbert Walker told him to. Walker and Harriman were the two evil geniuses, they didn't care about the Nazis any more than they cared about their investments with the Bolsheviks."

What is also at issue is how much money Bush made from his involvement. His supporters suggest that he had one token share. Loftus disputes this, citing sources in "the banking and intelligence communities" and suggesting that the Bush family, through George Herbert Walker and Prescott, got $1.5m out of the involvement. There is, however, no paper trail to this sum.

The third person going into print on the subject is John Buchanan, 54, a Miami-based magazine journalist who started examining the files while working on a screenplay. Last year, Buchanan published his findings in the venerable but small-circulation New Hampshire Gazette under the headline "Documents in National Archives Prove George Bush's Grandfather Traded With the Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor". He expands on this in his book to be published next month - Fixing America: Breaking the Stranglehold of Corporate Rule, Big Media and the Religious Right.

In the article, Buchanan, who has worked mainly in the trade and music press with a spell as a muckraking reporter in Miami, claimed that "the essential facts have appeared on the internet and in relatively obscure books but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes".

Buchanan suffers from hypermania, a form of manic depression, and when he found himself rebuffed in his initial efforts to interest the media, he responded with a series of threats against the journalists and media outlets that had spurned him. The threats, contained in e-mails, suggested that he would expose the journalists as "traitors to the truth".

Unsurprisingly, he soon had difficulty getting his calls returned. Most seriously, he faced aggravated stalking charges in Miami, in connection with a man with whom he had fallen out over the best way to publicise his findings. The charges were dropped last month.

Biography


Buchanan said he regretted his behaviour had damaged his credibility but his main aim was to secure publicity for the story. Both Loftus and Schweitzer say Buchanan has come up with previously undisclosed documentation.

The Bush family have largely responded with no comment to any reference to Prescott Bush. Brown Brothers Harriman also declined to comment.

The Bush family recently approved a flattering biography of Prescott Bush entitled Duty, Honour, Country by Mickey Herskowitz. The publishers, Rutledge Hill Press, promised the book would "deal honestly with Prescott Bush's alleged business relationships with Nazi industrialists and other accusations".

In fact, the allegations are dealt with in less than two pages. The book refers to the Herald-Tribune story by saying that "a person of less established ethics would have panicked ... Bush and his partners at Brown Brothers Harriman informed the government regulators that the account, opened in the late 1930s, was 'an unpaid courtesy for a client' ... Prescott Bush acted quickly and openly on behalf of the firm, served well by a reputation that had never been compromised. He made available all records and all documents. Viewed six decades later in the era of serial corporate scandals and shattered careers, he received what can be viewed as the ultimate clean bill."

The Prescott Bush story has been condemned by both conservatives and some liberals as having nothing to do with the current president. It has also been suggested that Prescott Bush had little to do with Averill Harriman and that the two men opposed each other politically.

However, documents from the Harriman papers include a flattering wartime profile of Harriman in the New York Journal American and next to it in the files is a letter to the financial editor of that paper from Prescott Bush congratulating the paper for running the profile. He added that Harriman's "performance and his whole attitude has been a source of inspiration and pride to his partners and his friends".

The Anti-Defamation League in the US is supportive of Prescott Bush and the Bush family. In a statement last year they said that "rumours about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated ... Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser."

However, one of the country's oldest Jewish publications, the Jewish Advocate, has aired the controversy in detail.

More than 60 years after Prescott Bush came briefly under scrutiny at the time of a faraway war, his grandson is facing a different kind of scrutiny but one underpinned by the same perception that, for some people, war can be a profitable business.
______________________________________

Others -

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html (this one looks at both sides and is amusingly right at times)

http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.shtml

Anyway - food for thought for those who do not know about this

Caveat - I get that people should be loathe to put the sins of the grandfather on the grandson, but I think it is historically relevant and it does show that the Bush money came from a bad place like most of America's really rich families like the du Pontsv(war profiteers), the Kennedy's (bootleggers and probable mob money), and many more. So, take from it what you will.

[seeker007nmss]

I heard this on BBC radio. They interviewed a guy in Brazil on what he thought of the new pope. "Well, at his age we won't have to put up with long. Maybe they will get it right the next time."


I wonder what he REALLY thought. :laugh:

[ShamHy89]

And I would be one of those going away from the church....there is now NO hope of me following anything the Vatican decrees....screw it - I'm going to the Lutherans or Episcopalians...

I don't really know Deanna. Catholics aren't required to agree with the pope or follow everything the Vatican decrees unless they're issues central to the faith. Remember to distinguish between doctrine and dogma.

Really, that distinction and the fact that the Church has the tradition and history to back it up are the reasons I stay and haven't wound up Protestant. All the central teachings about Jesus are there. Things like female priests and other teachings I'm sure will change and evolve over time just as the Church always has.

Shamus

[dissention]

I think the new pope is a closeted homosexual. He already dresses like a big queen, so I'm sure he taps along to Ann Miller with the best of 'em.

[amber]

I think the new pope is a closeted homosexual. He already dresses like a big queen, so I'm sure he taps along to Ann Miller with the best of 'em.
Did you see Lmao -Pope and check out his erotic hat? ;) *giggle, Ann Miller*

[strandinthewind]

I think the new pope is a closeted homosexual. He already dresses like a big queen, so I'm sure he taps along to Ann Miller with the best of 'em.

well, one of out oh so conservative posters her does and they SWEAR they are not gay :eek:

[Jessica Leigh]

Well, we know for sure that IBM was doing business with Nazi germany. And - Ford? I'm pretty sure a lot of American companies were. :shrug: But, probably Strand can find/remember more evidence.

my stepfather's uncle helped design the ibm computer system that the nazis used to catalog and round up the jews... and i am not proud of that in any way.

[strandinthewind]

my stepfather's uncle helped design the ibm computer system that the nazis used to catalog and round up the jews... and i am not proud of that in any way.


well you are hardly to blame for that darlin' :xoxo: MY anscestors had slaves - I am not proud of that - but that is what happened. Interestingly, the literature of the time suggests that they treated them with kindness and educated them - so though that was no remedy for slavery, which I cannot even inagine the horror of, at least they were treated okay. They also freed almost all of the laborers prior to the Civil War and paid them, which was rather radical. Anyway, we all have things in our backgrounds that we did not do - so don't beat yourself up.

[WelshWitchPMD]

:nod: And I would be one of those going away from the church....there is now NO hope of me following anything the Vatican decrees....screw it - I'm going to the Lutherans or Episcopalians...

BTW - Thanks Jessica for the info on the Lutherans..I hadn't even thought about them to be honest....

The search commences to find a new religion :p


The Unitarians except jsut about anyone into their church. Even Wiccans. :eek:
http://www.uua.org/

[Jessica Leigh]

The Unitarians except jsut about anyone into their church. Even Wiccans. :eek:
http://www.uua.org/

ummmm how does that work? i mean... if someone is wiccan... wouldn't wicca be their religion? why would they also want to join another religion? or do you mean if they convert?

[DrummerDeanna]

The Unitarians except jsut about anyone into their church. Even Wiccans. :eek:
http://www.uua.org/


:laugh: You're like the fifth person who has suggested Unitarian to me :D

I have been to one Unitarian mass...not sure that's totally what I'm looking for at this point - though I do like how inclusive of all they are...I'm really not ruling anything out at this point - I think for the next few months I'm just going to go church hopping :D

[WelshWitchPMD]

ummmm how does that work? i mean... if someone is wiccan... wouldn't wicca be their religion? why would they also want to join another religion? or do you mean if they convert?

I got this from their website.

Unitarianism and Universalism were both technically Christian denominations right up until they merged in 1961.

I say technically because from the 1850's-1950's, starting with the Transcendentalists (Emerson, Thoreau) and ending with effects of the 1930's Humanist Manifesto, both Unitarianism and Universalism became accepting of beliefs outside of traditional Christianity.

By 1961, when the two denominations were together writing the beliefs statements of the forming Unitarian Universalist Association, their congregations included people from many faith backgrounds. The UUA ended up being formed as a non-creedal religion: we have no statement of religious belief, Christian or otherwise.

Since 1961, the UUA has become even more welcoming of people with non-Christian beliefs, including many Humanists, Pagans, Buddhists, and others.

You ask why people with no theistic belief (i.e. atheists) might want to participate in worship services. Many people who don't believe in a deity (god) have very deep and meaningful spiritualities. Some atheists believe in the holiness of the world or people, or in the soul or afterlife, or in other aspects of religious existence despite their belief that there is no divine being. Others find great meaning in religious community, and in celebrating shared moral values. Others just like to sing in the choir, or hear interesting sermons. There are many different reasons.

[WelshWitchPMD]

:laugh: You're like the fifth person who has suggested Unitarian to me :D

I have been to one Unitarian mass...not sure that's totally what I'm looking for at this point - though I do like how inclusive of all they are...I'm really not ruling anything out at this point - I think for the next few months I'm just going to go church hopping :D

I have always wanted to check it out but I never actually got the nerve up to go. I'll tell you what church was weird. The Spiritualists. Well, I had a bad experience when I went to one here, anyway. Never Going Back Again. :laugh:

[WelshWitchPMD]

Just a silly side note. Yesterday when the new Pope was announced some people at work called him John Ratzenberger. :lol: We had this running joke about Cliff Claven being head of the Catholic Church.

[amber]

Just a silly side note. Yesterday when the new Pope was announced some people at work called him John Ratzenberger. :lol: We had this running joke about Cliff Claven being head of the Catholic Church.
:lol: :lol:
strangely, that's exactly what I thought of as well.

[catinthedark]

:laugh: You're like the fifth person who has suggested Unitarian to me :D

I have been to one Unitarian mass...not sure that's totally what I'm looking for at this point - though I do like how inclusive of all they are...I'm really not ruling anything out at this point - I think for the next few months I'm just going to go church hopping :D

Are Unitarians like the United Church of Canada? It sounds like Lutherans may be similar, too. I'm not sure. Would they be Protestant, or still categorized as Catholic? ('Scuse my ignorance; I am interested, though). The UCC is Protestant - very liberal, very accepting of any and all. I've always wondered what the equivilent is in the US.

[BTFLCHLD]

What happened with the smoke? Pip love your sig

[DrummerDeanna]

Are Unitarians like the United Church of Canada? It sounds like Lutherans may be similar, too. I'm not sure. Would they be Protestant, or still categorized as Catholic? ('Scuse my ignorance; I am interested, though). The UCC is Protestant - very liberal, very accepting of any and all. I've always wondered what the equivilent is in the US.


I don't think Unitarians are even seen as a Christian sect anymore - because as I understand it they pretty much embrace all religions....:shrug: But what Pattie got from their website says it better than I can....but yeah - I don't think it's the equivelant of the UCC

[gldstwmn]

President's younger brother served with then-cardinal on board of relatively unknown ecumenical foundation

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wochar214226829apr21,0,2092802,print.story

BY KNUT ROYCE AND TOM BRUNE
WASHINGTON BUREAU

April 21, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Neil Bush, the president's controversial younger brother, six years ago joined the cardinal who this week became Pope Benedict XVI as a founding board member of a little known Swiss ecumenical foundation.

The charter members of the board were all well-known international religious figures, except for Bush and his close friend and business partner, Jamal Daniel, whose family has extensive holdings in the United States and Switzerland, public records show.

The Foundation for Interreligious and Intercultural Research and Dialogue was founded in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1999 to promote ecumenical understanding and publish original religious texts, said a foundation official.

Besides then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, founding board members included Rene-Samuel Sirat, the former chief rabbi of France; Jordan's Prince Hassan, a Muslim dedicated to religious dialogue; the late Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan, another prominent Muslim; Olivier Fatio, director of the Institute of the History of the Reformation; and foundation president Metropolitan Damaskinos, a Greek Orthodox leader.

Gary Vachicouras, a theologian and foundation official in Geneva, would not explain in a telephone interview yesterday why Bush, who has no clear public connection to religious causes, was on the first board.

"He was interested at that particular time," said Vachicouras of Bush. But like some other initial board members, Bush is no longer involved, Vachicouras said. Ratzinger also left a few years ago and was replaced by Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, who is responsible for ecumenical relations for the Vatican, said Vachicouras.

Still active is Daniel, a Syrian American who has family active in the Orthodox Church in Geneva, said Vachicouras. "This is an Orthodox lay person," he said.

Neither Bush, now president of the educational software company Ignite! Learning, based in Austin, Texas, nor Daniel returned calls for comment.

In his highly publicized divorce last year, Bush revealed he and Daniel are co-chairs of Texas-based Crest Investment Co., which pays him $60,000 a year for consulting. Recently, Crest Investment officials used Bush's name as a reference in cutting an exclusive deal with Texas officials on construction of a liquid natural gas storage facility that will guarantee Crest payments of at least $2 million a year, according to the Los Angeles Times.

In the divorce proceedings, Bush also revealed that while he was in a hotel in Asia, women on at least three occasions came into his room and had sex with him. Daniel hosted Bush's second wedding at his home.

Daniel reportedly became acquainted with Bush in 1991, the year the federal Office of Thrift Supervision sanctioned Bush for having "multiple conflicts of interest" in his role as a director of Silverado Savings and Loan, a Colorado thrift whose failure cost taxpayers $1.3 billion. Bush paid $50,000 in a settlement.

The foundation, based at the Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Geneva, is listed by Dun & Bradstreet business credit reports as a management trust for purposes other than education, religion, charity or research. But Vachicouras said the designation must be a mistake of translation to English because the foundation is a private nonprofit established under Swiss law. He said the foundation is being "relaunched" on its mission to publish the original text of the Bible's Old Testament in Hebrew, its New Testament in Greek and the Quran in Arabic.

Fatio, who left the board three years ago, said the foundation "never had any money." Vachicouras declined to discuss finances.

He said, "We keep a low profile because that makes it easier to get work done."

[amber]

Weird.......

[DrummerDeanna]

that is pretty weird...:nod: