What religon/belief......

[seeker007nmss]

Okay, what religion or belief do you follow? (Now let's be nice and not pick on the responses....too much :angel: ) I think everyone has their own path and I can accept almost any belief as being valid - for that person- as long as they don't harm another, or try to "push" their views. I have problems with the "organized" religions as they tend to exclude many for silly reasons, or are used for crowd control. "Believe what we do or you are going to a nasty place forever". I don't think god/gods are that strict if your are sincere in your soul. If you find peace and fullfillment in your belief, more power to you. I don't think you need a book or another mortal to contact "a greater force" and that each path has it's own merits. (And then again some are just plain kooky....j/k) Okay...let the games begin..... :eek:

[golden braid]

I'm Jewish but I'm not religious at all. I don't go to temple or really celebrate any of the holidays.

[amber]

I was raised with native american religion, and baptized catholic. But basically the tenet i try to follow, is that everything on the earth has an important place, and some aren't more important than others, and that everything is connected. Also, I try to be accepting of as many things as i possibly can, barring the obvious things which hurt others. I try to respect other people, but it can be hard. It is easy for me to respect other life forms, though. I also believe that rampant consumerism is wrong, and that value should be placed not on what we can acquire, but on deeper, more fundamental truths. I try not to be jealous, or covetous, or cruel. I think that killing things is wrong, but that death isn't, it is a natural part of the cycle of everything. I, personally, believe that the more humans distance themselves from "nature" (of which we are a part) the more soul sickness will abound.
These are just thoughts off the top of my head....

[GardenStateGirlie]

My dad was raised Catholic and I can't recall what my mom was raised. At any rate, they chose to not bring me up in a church. I went to vacation bible school one summer when I was 5 or so with neighbors (my parents thought I should have a bit of exposure). Other than that, nothing. Of course, I have my own beliefs that I like to think come from various areas and honestly, i'm happy with that.

[David]

Okay, what religion or belief do you follow?I adhere to the belief that believing is distinct from knowing, & that education, as Epictetus understood it, is the only hope for my happiness on Earth.

[GateandGarden]

Technically, I was baptized in a Baptist church, went to a Baptist preschool, and attended vacation Bible school one summer. I've been to some Baptist church services here and there also, but that's the extent of it. I never really took any of it seriously. There was a time when I wanted to because I thought I should, but it didn't feel right to me.

I identify as a agnostic. I don't particularly believe in a god, but I'm not ruling it out, as I don't think we can be certain. I personally think there was some sort of creator that set everything into motion, but when it comes to believing that that creator is still involved in every day activities of man, I personally don't believe that. I believe in the human spirit, and I don't think that, as Ani DiFranco says, "...when we are dead we are just dead," I think we go somewhere, but I realize that I could be wrong. (That goes for pretty much everything I've said so far and will say in this paragraph). I personally don't believe that dead is the end. As Carly Simon says (though she borrowed it from someone else)--"Life is eternal, love is immortal, and death is only a horizon." :)

The human heart also has spiritual significance to me, a kind of significance that I can't really define but it is still very vital to me. I'm ultra old-fashioned in that I believe that the heart carries the essence of us in some sense. The ancient Egyptians felt the same way, and though they were light years behind us in terms of medical science and many other fields, I think they were an amazing people. This is a huge part of why I love stethoscopes and listening to hearts so much; I call that part of my religion sometimes. (Though I say that a little facetiously, as I don't have an actual "religion," per se).

[Mad4stevie]

I was raised in a conservative Christian home. I was expected to go to church every Sunday, unless I was on my deathbed. I was even enrolled in a private Christian school from 3rd - 8th grade where we had to memorize bible verses and could only wear shorts that were no shorter than 2 inches above our knees when kneeling (talk about controlling :laugh: ). So I was raised in "one of those" homes.

However, I am proud of my ability to reach beyond that kind of upbringing, which obviously tends to be very sheltered. When I left home for college, I just went crazy and did alot of the stuff I never did while living "under my parents roof" for fear of reprisal. :D That included challenging my religious beliefs on an intellectual level, which would never have been acceptable to do while living with my parents.

One issue that I have with organized religion in general (no matter what the faith) is that it is ultimately a business. Thus, some decisions are made based solely on power issues or money. However, by far the worst thing is the hypocracy. I HATE THAT WITH A PASSION. Some many people get up on their "high horse" and like to look down on others as if they are "less than" worthy to be at "their" church.

I don't believe that one church is necessarily the "right" one. However, I do have a belief system centered around the idea of forgiveness and salvation for anyone who seeks it. I will be the first to admit that this cannot be rationalized. It is a faith based belief system, and cannot be supported by any logical proof.

[Mad4stevie]

The human heart also has spiritual significance to me, a kind of significance that I can't really define but it is still very vital to me. I'm ultra old-fashioned in that I believe that the heart carries the essence of us in some sense. The ancient Egyptians felt the same way, and though they were light years behind us in terms of medical science and many other fields, I think they were an amazing people. This is a huge part of why I love stethoscopes and listening to hearts so much; I call that part of my religion sometimes. (Though I say that a little facetiously, as I don't have an actual "religion," per se).

This makes me think of that 21 Grams movie out awhile back. Kinda creepy idea that the body loses exactly that much weight at the time of death :shocked:

[GateandGarden]

I adhere to the belief that believing is distinct from knowing, & that education, as Epictetus understood it, is the only hope for my happiness on Earth.An honest question:

For those of you who do not hold any spiritual beliefs whatsoever, and prefer to stick to what is true beyond any shadow of a doubt and not to worry with what cannot be proven, how do you cope with the death of someone close to you?

[GateandGarden]

This makes me think of that 27 Grams movie out awhile back. Kinda creepy idea that the body loses exactly that much weight at the time of death :shocked:I haven't seen that movie but I should! Someone was discussing it in another thread, the one about the afterlife, I believe.

[amber]

I haven't seen that movie but I should! Someone was discussing in another thread, the one about the afterlife, I believe.

yeah, you lose a certain amount of body weight (21 grams?) that cannot be explained, ie, where it goes, what it is. We were discussing whether it was the soul, etc. With the possibility that "the soul" could be just, the energy we are made up of, not necessarily something that goes to heaven, or whatever. Then I said energy (matter) can't be created or destroyed, right? etc.

[DownOnRodeo]

I went to Catholic and Anglican elementary schools & churches as a kid. I was raised Christian by my parents but (gratefully) I was allowed to ask questions and, in the end, make up my own mind about the whole thing.

I have no idea how to describe my 'belief' etc at this point. Basically, anything that works is good enough! :laugh: If I had to give it a name, it'd be 'Common Sense'. :shrug:

I don't agree with organized religion, but on the other hand I applaud the function that a church plays in binding a community and the charity it offers.

[Mad4stevie]

yeah, you lose a certain amount of body weight (21 grams?) that cannot be explained, ie, where it goes, what it is. We were discussing whether it was the soul, etc. With the possibility that "the soul" could be just, the energy we are made up of, not necessarily something that goes to heaven, or whatever. Then I said energy (matter) can't be created or destroyed, right? etc.

Yeah, thanks for correcting me, it is 21 grams. I don't know why I put 27 grams.

My opinion - it is the soul.

[GardenStateGirlie]

An honest question:

For those of you who do not hold any spiritual beliefs whatsoever, and prefer to stick to what is true beyond any shadow of a doubt and not to worry with what cannot be proven, how do you cope with the death of someone close to you?

I do hold spiritual beliefs but this is interesting...If you're familiar with early American literature, William Cullen Bryant began writing a poem entitled "Thanatopsis" at age seventeen and continued throughout his life to revise it. It was sort of a musing on death questioning how we are supposed to live when a loved one dies and were faced with thinking about our own mortality. He says:

Thou shalt lie down
With patriarchs of the infant world, with kings
the powerful of the earth, the wise, the good,
Fair forms, and hoary seers of ages past,
All in one mighty sepulchre.

To me, it's comforting when you think about it. Yes, it's an unknown but really, so is life until you start living it. He's basically saying that you can take comfort in those who died before you and that you should live with trust (everyone else is there) and that it's always been okay and will continue to be okay. People die and will continue to die. Life will go on but you'll not be forgotten--you'll be one with Earth and carry on and so will everyone else.

[GardenStateGirlie]

This makes me think of that 21 Grams movie out awhile back. Kinda creepy idea that the body loses exactly that much weight at the time of death :shocked:

That movie made me cry like a baby...great performances in the film and really really touching. Definitely one to watch if you've never seen it and wouldn't mind a good cry.

[GateandGarden]

I do hold spiritual beliefs but this is interesting...If your familiar with early American literature, William Cullen Bryant began writing a poem entitled "Thanatopsis" at age seventeen and continued throughout his life to revise it. It was sort of a musing on death questioning how we are supposed to live when a loved one dies and were faced with thinking about our own mortality. He says:

Thou shalt lie down
With patriarchs of the infant world, with kings
the powerful of the earth, the wise, the good,
Fair forms, and hoary seers of ages past,
All in one mighty sepulchre.

To me, it's comforting when you think about it. Yes, it's an unknown but really, so is life until you start living it. He's basically saying that you can take comfort in those who died before you and that you should live with trust (everyone else is there) and that it's always been okay and will continue to be okay. People die and will continue to die. Life will go on but you'll not be forgotten--you'll be one with Earth and carry on and so will everyone else.I do remember "Thanatopsis," though I was rusty on it, so thanks for posting that verse. Thanks for your whole post, too.

[GateandGarden]

Why would grieving be exclusive for those who believe in superior beings?? We grieve just like anyone else but don't believe the person is with God or anything of the sort.

Actually if you're me you make jokes about death but I'm weird.Yes, of course, I would imagine that you still grieve, but I wonder how one copes with the notion of never having any contact whatsoever with someone he or she loves dearly ever again. Perhaps an answer is in Marissa's post; I don't know. It's a thought.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Actually if you're me you make jokes about death but I'm weird.

Life's a piece of ****,
when you look at it,
Life's a laugh, and death's the joke,
It's true!
You'll see, it's all a show,
Keep em' laughing as you go,
Just remember the last laugh is on you! ;)

[amber]

Why would grieving be exclusive for those who believe in superior beings?? We grieve just like anyone else but don't believe the person is with God or anything of the sort.

Actually if you're me you make jokes about death but I'm weird.
Yes, tis true. Animals grieve for their lost mates/children, but I doubt they believe that they are with god, either. In fact I'm pretty sure they don't think anything of the sort. I think grieving is independent of such things, it is just a natural condition of living. Not anything to do with god, at all. (who I don't believe in).

[amber]

Also, I think it is possible to believe you're loved one's soul is still around (I find it hard to believe it isn't) without believing they went to heaven, or are "with god". To me, death is just energy, replaced into a different form.

[GardenStateGirlie]

I do remember "Thanatopsis," though I was rusty on it, so thanks for posting that verse. Thanks for your whole post, too.

*hugs her copy of The American Tradition in Literature*

No problem. Glad the fact that I've taken six English and Lit courses in college could come in handy for something O_o <---nerd glasses.

[GateandGarden]

Why would grieving be exclusive for those who believe in superior beings?? We grieve just like anyone else but don't believe the person is with God or anything of the sort.

Actually if you're me you make jokes about death but I'm weird.Also, there's another thing I wanted to clarify about my post. This doesn't really have a thing to do with whether or not you believe in a superior being. I do not necessarily beileve that myself. It's a question about the human spirit.

[Mad4stevie]

Well I know my beliefs piss people off because I believe that the need to hold onto the belief in superior beings and all the associated beliefs is an inability to deal with randomness and often brutal realities. I think it's a comfort for them and that those who don't require this are more open to the harshness of life. I know I just get on the nerves of religious people but I really think it's an inability to cope with being insignifcant and random. I guess I feel it's a weakness.

That is an interesting perspective to me, probably because I have always thought that the inability to have faith or hope in life is a weakness, whether applied to death/afterlife or not.

[amber]

Well I know my beliefs piss people off because I believe that the need to hold onto the belief in superior beings and all the associated beliefs is an inability to deal with randomness and often brutal realities. I think it's a comfort for them and that those who don't require this are more open to the harshness of life. I know I just get on the nerves of religious people but I really think it's an inability to cope with being insignifcant and random. I guess I feel it's a weakness.
Ah! yes. I believe that the inability to cope with the insignifigant and random is at the core of religious beliefs as well. But I submit, that death is a part of life, a part of the cycle, that, while painful, is integral. While i think that there is some sort of weird "soul" (I believe this because of evidence, and what people have seen when their loved ones passed on, etc) I don't think that soul need be "with god" or anything like that. To me, it just may be transferred energy, transferred matter.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Exactly! There's always a part of Monty Python that can sum up my beliefs. If you want to know what I believe, watch Life Of Brian.

9am each morning during the week, the end to the 102.9 WMGK morning show is Always Look On The Bright Side of Life <3 Ahh...Monty Python...how I love thee.

[GateandGarden]

Well I know my beliefs piss people off because I believe that the need to hold onto the belief in superior beings and all the associated beliefs is an inability to deal with randomness and often brutal realities. I think it's a comfort for them and that those who don't require this are more open to the harshness of life. I know I just get on the nerves of religious people but I really think it's an inability to cope with being insignifcant and random. I guess I feel it's a weakness.I think that some belief systems can be a cop out and a sign of weakness or an inability to think out of one's box. (Sorry for the embarrassing cliche). But I don't see how we're insignificant, as you put it.

[xxxmx]

An honest question:

For those of you who do not hold any spiritual beliefs whatsoever, and prefer to stick to what is true beyond any shadow of a doubt and not to worry with what cannot be proven, how do you cope with the death of someone close to you?

i was with my aunt when she died, and as i do not believe in 'heaven' or 'hell' it was quite sad to think that she just 'stopped.' it's sad to think that all of her memories were just *poof* gone, but i can't really see anything else happening. how to deal? i make sure that i talk to my mom and my gram and my sister and my dad every day, and i make sure that i say what i need to say to them, and i make sure that i act in ways that will make them feel loved and needed by me... and i remember that my aunt was one classy lady who called often, and that she always had a story to tell, and that she always made sure that i knew when she was thinking of me... i guess i'm an 'accentuate the positive' kind of person.

[GateandGarden]

That is an interesting perspective to me, probably because I have always thought that the inability to have faith or hope in life is a weakness, whether applied to death/afterlife or not.I think that that is true as well. I think that clinging to irrational faith is a sign of weakness, but I also think that being incapable of any faith at all is a sign of weakness as well.

[GateandGarden]

i was with my aunt when she died, and as i do not believe in 'heaven' or 'hell' it was quite sad to think that she just 'stopped.' it's sad to think that all of her memories were just *poof* gone, but i can't really see anything else happening. how to deal? i make sure that i talk to my mom and my gram and my sister and my dad every day, and i make sure that i say what i need to say to them, and i make sure that i act in ways that will make them feel loved and needed by me... and i remember that my aunt was one classy lady who called often, and that she always had a story to tell, and that she always made sure that i knew when she was thinking of me... i guess i'm an 'accentuate the positive' kind of person.I think see some of what you mean. Because of the possibility (not certainty by any means, IMO) that this is the end, we have to appreciate life and let it be known to others how important they are while we're here. :nod:

[GardenStateGirlie]

I think that that is true as well. I think that clinging to irrational faith is a sign of weakness, but I also think that being incapable of any faith at all is a sign of weakness as well.

So then what can be classified as wrong and what can be classified as right? I would agree but to be philosophical for a moment, if I may be, we're saying clinging to irrational faith is a sign of weakness but at the same token, we're then saying if we're incapable of any faith, it's a sign of weakness too. That's a rather large conundrum. How is any faith completely and totally 100% rational? Isn't all faith rather irrational but because we own it and hold on to it, to us, it is or does then become rational?

Just a thought.

[GateandGarden]

I don't see how we could be significant.How about on a small scale? Or does that not qualify? I'll assume it does for now. Are you not significant to any other human being. I'm certain that you are.

So then what can be classified as wrong and what can be classified as right? I would agree but to be philosophical for a moment, if I may be, we're saying clinging to irrational faith is a sign of weakness but at the same token, we're then saying if we're incapable of any faith, it's a sign of weakness too. That's a rather large conundrum. How is any faith completely and totally 100% rational? Isn't all faith rather irrational but because we own it and hold on to it, to us, it is or does then become rational?

Just a thought.I think this will come off shallow, but I think what's necessary is a happy medium. I think one needs to realize that we don't know any of it for certain, so to have so much faith that you can't see things any other way is foolish, just as refusing to have any faith whatsoever and therefore shutting the door is foolish as well. (IMO!)

[amber]

So then what can be classified as wrong and what can be classified as right? I would agree but to be philosophical for a moment, if I may be, we're saying clinging to irrational faith is a sign of weakness but at the same token, we're then saying if we're incapable of any faith, it's a sign of weakness too. That's a rather large conundrum. How is any faith completely and totally 100% rational? Isn't all faith rather irrational but because we own it and hold on to it, to us, it is or does then become rational?

Just a thought.
I think that weakness is when you have all the scientific, logical, religious, statistical, first person, etc. (basically all the info in the world) available to you, and you do not take everything that is known into account to form your beliefs. :) Or to keep your mind open to the possibility that you could not possibly know everything. I think it is a weakness when you hold onto what you were taught growing up, without leaving room for all the other possibilities/beliefs that are out there. Basically, whenever you close your mind to possibilities, then you have a weakness. The hard part, of course, is sifting through all the information for the most logical, proven, etc., information.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Roman Catholic! :D

[GateandGarden]

Not particularly. What difference would it make if I weren't here?For one, I would laugh a bit less when reading posts on this board if you weren't here. (And that's a compliment, by the way).

[dissention]

Not particularly. What difference would it make if I weren't here?

Exactly the point I was trying to make in the other thread. We're all insignificant.

[amber]

Oh, I see this is one of those threads where everyone ignores my brilliant, ahead of it's time, theories.... :lol: :lol: Or maybe just doesn't understand what I'm saying? probably that last one. :D

[GardenStateGirlie]

I think this will come off shallow, but I think what's necessary is a happy medium. I think one needs to realize that we don't know any of it for certain, so to refuse to have so much faith that you can't see things any other way is foolish, just as refusing to have any faith whatsoever and therefore shutting the door is foolish as well. (IMO!)

Of course a happy medium would be excellent but much like politics, there are a lot of thinkers that don't subscribe to the theory that to see both sides is more enlightening than to see one side of the spectrum. People believe what is right and what is right are the standards and practices they've conformed to either by choice or by being born into it.

Okay, next question...do you think the refusal to have so much faith that you can't see things any other way and the refusal of faith totally is ignorance or fear? (or if you're like me and think that generally, ignorance is fear, run with that). It may not be either to some but again, something to talk about.

[amber]

Exactly the point I was trying to make in the other thread. We're all insignificant.
yes, but not to other beings on this earth. In the cosmic sense, i totally agree. But we do not live in the cosmic sense, we live with other life forms. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

Exactly the point I was trying to make in the other thread. We're all insignificant.If I honestly believed that, then it's very likely that I'd kill myself. I thought about it a lot during my angst-filled teenage years and thinking that I'm insignificant would be enough for me to say that life is meaningless, perhaps.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Exactly the point I was trying to make in the other thread. We're all insignificant.

In the grande scheme of things, we very well all may be. Some might find that comforting, others may not. Relativism...you sneaky little bastard, you!

[amber]

Aw shucks. Still I don't think the fact that one or two people might grieve for a little bit makes me significant.
well, though, it does. You could alter our lives in many unforseeable ways. heck, the fact that I'm sitting here, instead of doing something else, could alter my life, and many others. I may have a different job, I may have different health, I may know different people, all because I am sitting here, talking to you, luxiemuffin. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

Of course a happy medium would be excellent but much like politics, there are a lot of thinkers that don't subscribe to the theory that to see both sides is more enlightening than to see one side of the spectrum. People believe what is right and what is right are the standards and practices they've conformed to either by choice or by being born into it.

Okay, next question...do you think the refusal to have so much faith that you can't see things any other way and the refusal of faith totally is ignorance or fear? (or if you're like me and think that generally, ignorance is fear, run with that). It may not be either to some but again, something to talk about.I agree with you in that I also think it's both ignorance and fear.

(OMG. I am SO going to have a headache before this night is through. And not just because I am drinking so much wine). :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

Aw shucks. Still I don't think the fact that one or two people might grieve for a little bit makes me significant.I do. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

well, though, it does. You could alter our lives in many unforseeable ways. heck, the fact that I'm sitting here, instead of doing something else, could alter my life, and many others. I may have a different job, I may have different health, I may know different people, all because I am sitting here, talking to you, luxiemuffin. :shrug:Very true. :nod:

[GateandGarden]

That's what I was saying earlier, that I think a need for faith and therefore reassurance in oneself and a greater plan is a sign of weakness. I accept that life is meaningless and that I'm insignificant. I don't think killing oneself is an answer to being insignificant, although it is an answer to alleviating some things that humans can't deal with, but insignificance in life is also insignificance in death.If I thought that I didn't mean anything to anyone else other than myself, than I don't see what my life would be worth in that case. :shrug:

[amber]

Very true. :nod:
Ah, finally, someone acknowleges. (sp). I've been brilliant througout this thread, don'tcha know? :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

Ah, finally, someone acknowleges. (sp). I've been brilliant througout this thread, don'tcha know? :laugh:Oh, 'when you are good, you are very, very good.' :laugh: :xoxo:

[GateandGarden]

Ah but what I was relucant to say but evidently need to is that you too are insignificant! :pokes tongue out but still refuses to use smilie: Of course you're more significant than me but we're still talking on a scale so small that it's insignificant.It's so hilarious that you still inadvertently used a smilie! :laugh:

[amber]

Ah but what I was relucant to say but evidently need to is that you too are insignificant! :pokes tongue out but still refuses to use smilie: Of course you're more significant than me but we're still talking on a scale so small that it's insignificant.
I know, I said that before. :rolleyes: I said, everythings insignificant, except to the beings we share the earth with, who are also insignificant, cosmically, but to each other, are not insignificant. And, we live with each other, so while we should all keep our cosmic insignificance (sp) in mind, we should also realize that to the other inhabitants that we share the earth with, we may not be insignificant! Hello, I know y'all think I am not smart, but you should really read my posts....Sesly, I'm hella deep and knowledgeable! (yet insignificant, of course!) :lol: :lol: :xoxo:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Ledgies: Getting Philosophical On Your Ass Since 2005.

[GateandGarden]

I know, I said that before. :rolleyes: I said, everythings insignificant, except to the beings we share the earth with, who are also insignificant, cosmically, but to each other, are not insignificant. And, we live with each other, so while we should all keep our cosmic insignificance (sp) in mind, we should also realize that to the other inhabitants that we share the earth with, we may not be insignificant! Hello, I know y'all think I am not smart, but you should really read my posts....Sesly, I'm hella deep and knowledgeable! (yet insignificant, of course!) :lol: :lol: :xoxo:I also figure there's a possibility, that, cosmically, the human race and its individuals have a significance in the grand scheme of things. Maybe we just don't understand what it could be yet, or maybe we never will.

EDIT: Ugh, subject-verb agreement error! :o

[amber]

Ledgies: Getting Philosophical On Your Ass Since 2005.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :xoxo:

[GateandGarden]

Ledgies: Getting Philosophical On Your Ass Since 2005.:laugh::lol::laugh:

[amber]

I also figure there's a possibility, that, cosmically, the human race and its individuals has a significance in the grand scheme of things. Maybe we just don't understand what it could be yet, or maybe we never will.
Hmmm. Maybe. But if we can't understand it, how significant could it be? :laugh: But sesly. We can only do what we know, but we sure as hell could know a lot more things, as a people. There are millions of things everywhere, easily attainable, that people don't know, but could.

[GardenStateGirlie]

I also figure there's a possibility, that, cosmically, the human race and its individuals has a significance in the grand scheme of things. Maybe we just don't understand what it could be yet, or maybe we never will.

And perhaps we're not meant to :shrug:

[GardenStateGirlie]

No less than what your death would be worth. I don't believe my life is meaningful but I'll keep living it until either I can't take it (or a billiard table falls on me) for the same reasons everyone else does, and everything else exists, because it just is. Killing myself is a way of fixing some things but not my insignificance, I'll remain as such. I just accept that I am insignificant.

If you believed in the theory of six degrees of seperation (each person on Earth is seperated by five other people), you might reconsider thinking your life has no meaning. I'm not saying I do or I don't but more food for thought.

[GateandGarden]

Hmmm. Maybe. But if we can't understand it, how significant could it be? :laugh: But sesly. We can only do what we know, but we sure as hell could know a lot more things, as a people. There are millions of things everywhere, easily attainable, that people don't know, but could.OMG. The headache. :laugh:

And perhaps we're not meant to :shrug:True.

[GateandGarden]

No less than what your death would be worth. I don't believe my life is meaningful but I'll keep living it until either I can't take it (or a billiard table falls on me) for the same reasons everyone else does, and everything else exists, because it just is. Killing myself is a way of fixing some things but not my insignificance, I'll remain as such. I just accept that I am insignificant.I think you should consider what Marissa said. I think you're cornering and limiting yourself. :shrug: This is not meant to be condescending in the least and I apologize in advance if it comes off that way (as I hate that), but I think you might change your mind when you get older. I don't mean to imply that I'm older and wiser, because I admit that I may change my mind on these issues as well. :shrug:

[amber]

I think you should consider what Marissa said. I think you're cornering and limiting yourself. :shrug: This is not meant to be condescending in the least and I apologize in advance if it comes off that way (as I hate that), but I think you might change your mind when you get older. I don't mean to imply that I'm older and wiser, because I admit that I may change my mind on these issues as well. :shrug:
Just because you are meaningful, doesn't mean you have a responsibility to live. :D as far as i can tell, living is tedious and painful. you know, just like it has been throughout time? Not to be DD, but that's just how I feel. :)

[GateandGarden]

Just because you are meaningful, doesn't mean you have a responsibility to live. :D as far as i can tell, living is tedious and painful. you know, just like it has been throughout time? Not to be DD, but that's just how I feel. :)Did I say (or imply) that anyone had a responsibility to live? :shrug:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Indeed the people on Mars only have three degrees of seperation.

I don't know if I believe in that but still we're talking about being significant to people so we're talking on an insignificant scale. Anyway, I think sometimes certain circumstances are in place to make even this level of significance unattainable.

Wiseass :laugh:

I'm not sure I do completely either but think about it in terms of this...some guy starving in Somalia is seperated by five degrees to you and you've never even met the man. Don't you think that's sort of powerful as opposed to completely and totally insignificant?

[amber]

Did I say (or imply) that anyone had a responsibility to live? :shrug:
No, you're right. you just said Lux was cornering and limiting herself when she said something about not living. Mea Culpa.

[GateandGarden]

Oh I don't think so. Although maybe people become more significant (still on such a small scale) as time progresses.Oh, Lux. I don't know what else to say to you about it. But if you're comfortable and happy, then who am I to tell you that you should or must look at things another way, really? I'm not some crazy fundie who insists you must see things my way or there's no way you could be happy. I'm not that delusional. Only moderately delusional, I'd say.

[GardenStateGirlie]

How does that make me significant and powerful? It just is. That just seems more like a statistic to do with population numbers, not an indication that it wouldn't have mattered if I died when I was born.

Think of all the things that wouldn't have happened--that would have changed the course of history (perhaps not major history but history nontheless because that's what the past is) if you hadn't been born. You wouldn't have met Joe on The Ledge. You guys wouldn't have gone and met Fleetwood Mac. Lindsey Buckingham wouldn't have connected with you on an intellectual level. He may have never seen Joe's tee and decided to play I Know I'm Not Wrong. Sound stupid? Maybe. But think about it.

[amber]

That just makes me think of what if other possible realities were in place. The possibilities were missing out on because of my damned existence!
could be true. :shrug:

[GardenStateGirlie]

That just makes me think of what if other possible realities were in place. The possibilities were missing out on because of my damned existence!

Ahh....

*le sigh*

Maybe yes, maybe no.

If it weren't such a long and costly plane ride, i'd come down there and knock some existance sense into you (and then steal your Tim Tams :nod: )

[GateandGarden]

Are there degrees of being delusional?I think so. But isn't that for another headache-inducing thread? :lol:

[GardenStateGirlie]

I think so. But isn't that for another headache-inducing thread? :lol:

You have to be at least a smidge delusional to make it through reality ;)

[amber]

You have to be at least a smidge delusional to make it through reality ;)
oh! guess that's my prob. :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

See now I feel even less significant because I've made you make me significant. How pathetic.OMG. That makes no sense to me whatsoever! :laugh::lol:

[amber]

Seriously, I thought the other day that I'd better not die in here because no one would know for a few weeks until the smell became unbearable. But now if you're going to come down then I'm forcibly significant. See now I feel even less significant because I've made you make me significant. How pathetic.
well, no one would know if most people died, really. If they live by themselves. I'm thinking, just make sure you clean your house before you die... :shrug: but I guess Marissa would find you. It's fine to be insignificant. I take comfort in the fact that very few people would care if I died. It makes me feel free.... :laugh: and? If you still have the cat? I don't think they can be counted on to alert people... :p

[GardenStateGirlie]

Seriously, I thought the other day that I'd better not die in here because no one would know for a few weeks until the smell became unbearable. But now if you're going to come down then I'm forcibly significant. See now I feel even less significant because I've made you make me significant. How pathetic.

Well ****, I just want your Tim Tams. That's all :lol: :p (i'm kidding!)

[strandinthewind]

I'm trying to comprehend it myself. I'm only significant when I warn people about my insignificance and they feel the subsequent need to make me feel some significance. So it's like I purchased some significance. Not the desired way to feel significant. Oh bugger it, I don't know but I think I should go and stand in the corner anyway.
Perhaps true but you in fact loved Stevie - at least before your sudden signature change - which means you cannot be that insignificant :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

Oh bugger it, I don't know but I think I should go and stand in the corner anyway.Wait, now you're being punished? :lol:

[amber]

I'm trying to comprehend it myself. I'm only significant when I warn people about my insignificance and they feel the subsequent need to make me feel some significance. So it's like I purchased some significance. Not the desired way to feel significant. Oh bugger it, I don't know but I think I should go and stand in the corner anyway.
Yep. that's how it works. I am right now in the insignificant corner of "no one answering my posts" again, I feel very free, as if I could say anything, and it wouldn't matter. Congrats on your significance purchase.

[GateandGarden]

Congrats on your significance purchase.:laugh::lol:

[GardenStateGirlie]

Oh they were on special today. I saw them and thought of you.......and then walked straight passed.

A-HA! I'M SIGNIFICANT! She looked at Tim Tam's and I crossed her mind. Did Meredith and I not tell you I took pictures of homes in mountains because I was like, this will blow Lux's mind! Psh. Significant. SIGNIFICANT.

[amber]

:laugh:;lol:
did someone just acknowledge that I said something? i'm having trouble coping with my newfound signifigance. I shall now stand in the corner.

[GateandGarden]

did someone just acknowledge that I said something? i'm having trouble coping with my newfound signifigance. I shall now stand in the corner.Yep, and I was so busy responding in my unintelligent, smilie-driven way that I even went back and edited and replaced a semi-colon with a colon. How 'bout that? :laugh:

[amber]

Yep, and I was so busy responding in my unintelligent, smilie-driven way that I even went back and edited and replaced a semi-colon with a colon. How 'bout that? :laugh:
great. thank you.

[amber]

Yes, for making others feel like I need to feel significant.....I think. Boo hoo poor me, come and reassure me of my worth. That in fact proves less worth than originally!

I see, making me feel guilty for it. Worthless and now guilty.
Not at all. I was actually talking about myself, with your post as a prop. you, lux, should always feel significant. :xoxo:

[GateandGarden]

great. thank you.You're welcome. I said you were very, very good, didn't I? :nod:

Anyway, I have to quit this. Goodnight, y'all. :)

[amber]

You're welcome. I said you were very, very good, didn't I? :nod:

Anyway, I have to quit this. Goodnight, y'all. :)

Goodnight, dear.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Throwing in the towel as well, kids. Hair stops for no one. Work 9-5. Good luck getting up, Marissa. Good. luck.

[amber]

Really? Shucks. I thought you were just trying to make me feel significant (which you could very well still be doing and would just reaffirm my lack of naturally occuring significance). Still, photographs in my honour aside, I fail to see my significance here. if I did trip and impale my existence on a pointy stick and then rot until the neighbours gained a sense of smell, you wouldn't even know. This occured to me recently, my friends wouldn't find out til much later because if I can't tell them, who will? So I'd have a funeral attended by people I can't stand and who never knew me and I never knew, atleast in any positive way. The people I actually like wouldn't know til weeks later by some form of notice, they'd think it was too bad and then that would be that. I mean, I appreciate the photos, but I'm not entirely convinced it makes me significant.

I don't mean this is a self-degrading way, I'm trying to be realistic.
that is very realistic. Although, i have my doubts right now that this post will have enough significance for you to answer it, seeing as how I wrote it, and all.

[amber]

Oh I'm confused now but atleast it may put an end to this conversation that tends to keep going around in circles.
yes, end it, after all, it is only me talking, and you. so insignificant.

[paleshadow]

Not particularly. What difference would it make if I weren't here?

What you said made me think of the movie "It's a Wonderful Life". Unfortunately you probably will never know what difference it would make if you weren't here. I think wether you believe there is a reason for being here or not, and all religion aside, everyone definately is part of some cause and affect, be it big or small. For example, if you weren't here, I wouldn't be responding to your post, and because I am responding to your post, I am not e-mailing my sister, and so on and so on....

[markolas]

Seems like we had a thread like this awhile back. Anyway...I'm a Buddhist. :)

[estranged4life]

Okay, what religion or belief do you follow? (Now let's be nice and not pick on the responses....too much :angel: ) I think everyone has their own path and I can accept almost any belief as being valid - for that person- as long as they don't harm another, or try to "push" their views. I have problems with the "organized" religions as they tend to exclude many for silly reasons, or are used for crowd control. "Believe what we do or you are going to a nasty place forever". I don't think god/gods are that strict if your are sincere in your soul. If you find peace and fullfillment in your belief, more power to you. I don't think you need a book or another mortal to contact "a greater force" and that each path has it's own merits. (And then again some are just plain kooky....j/k) Okay...let the games begin..... :eek:

I practice no religion nor do I follow any (I was raised in the ultra-nut-a-loon Baptist faith), I do believe in a higher power & I believe in life continues to exist in another physical plane after passing on from this hell known as Earth...But otherwise I shy completely away from anything those $$$$ grubbing fake-healing religatards TRY to force on me :nod:

[DrummerDeanna]

I tried to make it through all 8 pages - but I'm giving up - I'll just reply to the question originally asked.


I was raised Catholic and still consider myself Catholic.

I don't follow the Vatican rules per se - I go to church (though not as much as I'd like to) and I take part in the ritual - which I love.

I like the symbolism and history (yes, good and bad) of the Catholic church. I was not raised in an extremely strict environment - we went to church almost every Sunday but I was always taught that it's healthy and good to question - and not to take anything at face value - but to constantly question and challenge your faith...otherwise how do you grow in your faith?

I also don't take church teachings and things as my own beliefs because I am an individual first and foremost. I lean toward more liberal Catholic churches - and even some that are no longer even recognized by the Vatican because they've chosen to do things that go against its teachings.

I try to be respectful of all people's views..but a lot of times that respect is not reciprocated (ie - saying people who follow a faith are weak or ignorant.) I am not weak or ignorant - I know that my faith may not be absolute truth - but I CHOOSE to follow it because it gives me strength and comfort - and it feels good knowing that someone is watching out for me.

[sodascouts]

I am a Baptist. And the condescending attitudes of the self-proclaimed "enlightened" don't shake my faith one bit.

[GateandGarden]

I try to be respectful of all people's views..but a lot of times that respect is not reciprocated (ie - saying people who follow a faith are weak or ignorant.) I am not weak or ignorant - I know that my faith may not be absolute truth - but I CHOOSE to follow it because it gives me strength and comfort - and it feels good knowing that someone is watching out for me.Last night was exhausting for me and I'm sure it's nightmarish to others to read through all the posts we made, but I hope you got far enough to see that I was by no means talking about you and your beliefs when I was talking about weakness.

Lux, on the other hand, well she did kind of strike down faith entirely. :rolleyes:

[DrummerDeanna]

Last night was exhausting for me and I'm sure it's nightmarish to others to read through all the posts we made, but I hope you got far enough to see that I was by no means talking about you and your beliefs when I was talking about weakness.

Lux, on the other hand, well she did kind of strike down faith entirely. :rolleyes:

Right. Which is something I don't understand. I hear people of no faith all the time saying they hate it when people try to shove religion down their throats - or belittle or berate them for not having a religion or faith....

Why then is it okay for those same people to belittle and berate people who do have faith and religion?

I'm just sayin' :shrug:

eidt: And I'm not pointing any fingers here as I, too, am guilty of saying bad things about religious fundamentalists and Evengalicals...I was more just trying to raise a point :)

[sodascouts]

well, no one would know if most people died, really. If they live by themselves. I'm thinking, just make sure you clean your house before you die... :shrug: but I guess Marissa would find you. It's fine to be insignificant. I take comfort in the fact that very few people would care if I died. It makes me feel free.... :laugh: and? If you still have the cat? I don't think they can be counted on to alert people... :p

Very true. I've actually thought about this myself. If I died today, who would know?

Sunday: "Gee, Nancy's not online. Must be out doing stuff."

Monday: "I wonder why our teacher didn't come to class today? Who cares? YAY!!!"

"I wonder why Nancy didn't come to Latin class? Must be skipping again."

"I wonder why Nancy didn't come to tutor today? Maybe she forgot."

Tuesday: (different set of classes, different people notice I'm missing). "Wonder why Nancy didn't come to tutoring? Must have forgotten again."

"Wonder why Nancy didn't come to mentoring/Milton class? Must be skipping."

"Nancy's still offline? Wow, she must be REALLY busy!"

Wednesday: "Hmm, MAYBE we should check on her."

Thursday: "Hmm, MAYBE we shoud check on her."

Friday: Dead body found... probably. Along with my starving cat.

[dissention]

Lux, on the other hand, well she did kind of strike down faith entirely. :rolleyes:

And how are her beliefs any more rolling-eye emoticon worthy than the beliefs of those who put stock in faith?

[DrummerDeanna]

And how are her beliefs any more rolling-eye emoticon worthy than the beliefs of those who put stock in faith?


I don't think she was saying her beliefs in themselves are eyerolle-worthy.

It's the putting down of people who do put stock in faith that we were discussing - or so I thought....

[golddustwoman77]

I have been Methodist all my life. I like the Methodist faith, because they are quite liberal which matches up with my idea of faith. The only problem I have with my faith (Christian) is that I see all the problems that organized religion of all types has created throughout history. I hate how religion has divided people and nations, because I don't think that is what religion is supposed to be about. Therefore, I have to seperate myself and speak out against that part of the religious experience. I take away from it the spiritual, love and respect everything and everyone, do not judge, and be excepting of all, because that is what I think religion/Christianity is supposed to be about. Truly that is what religion is---your relationship with your spiritual being and the kind of person you are/how you live your life, not the "circus" that can go along with faith.

[skcin]

My mom's Catholic, my dad's Bulgarian Orthodox. Me & bro were baptised Orthodox. My brother was actually baptised in our living room!

When my mom & dad were getting married in the 60's, her church didn't want to marry them due to the fact that my dad had been married before (at age 16 in Bulgaria) & had a child. They went to Precaina (big spelling error, I'm sure) but they still refused. What really killed her was finding out later that another wealthier couple in the same situation were able to marry around the same time. :mad:

My mom basically left the Catholic church at that time, although she still follows some traditions (no meat on Good Friday is one.) It hurt her so badly that the cornerstone of her upbringing - her faith - was turning her away because she fell in love with the "wrong" person.

We are non-practicing, our Bulgarian church is over an hour away & we haven't gone in years. It's nice & everything, but I don't speak Bulgarian so I don't understand what they're saying anyway. :shrug:

I am not religious, but I think I'm pretty spiritual. I believe in God, and I have literally been brought to tears by the beauty God has created. I see things (a baby's birth, natural wonders) that make me think "God is great." But I do not go to any church, nor do I feel the need to. If God is everywhere, then I can talk to or see God anywhere, right? :angel:

[skcin]

Oh wait I forgot to mention, I do believe in one thing. I just believe in me, Yoko and me.

I just spit out my drink. :laugh:

[dissention]

It's the putting down of people who do put stock in faith that we were discussing - or so I thought....

I'm of the belief that people cling to religion and things like God because they'd feel scared, uninformed, and alone without it. I consider that a sign of weakness. From what I've gathered, Lux has expressed the same belief that people who cling to religion are weak. And then I read a post in this very thread where someone said that people who don't have any faith are weak, too.

[GateandGarden]

And how are her beliefs any more rolling-eye emoticon worthy than the beliefs of those who put stock in faith?You mean such as Deanna? I see Deanna as open-minded. I see Lux as being narrow-minded like the fundies because she won't consider that there could be more than what she sees. :shrug: I'm rolling my eyes at extremism in general, on both sides.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm being a prick. Maybe there's a lot that I'm not seeing. :shrug: I don't want to tell other people what to believe and it doesn't affect me personally, so I could just keep my mouth shut and not post about this and such, but I honestly feel that I have something of a point. :shrug: Maybe I'm being too hard on Lux, as she has said before that she realizes she doesn't know everything, and sometimes I think that's all we all need to realize, and just take it from there.

Uh, now it seems that I've launched into my pseudo-pseudo philosophical meanderings. Time to stop, I guess. :shocked:

[GateandGarden]

It's the putting down of people who do put stock in faith that we were discussing - or so I thought....And I see your point here, to. To say that everyone who has any faith at all is weak is make a painfully unfair general statement, IMO. But maybe I interpreted Lux wrongly, again. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

Oh wait I forgot to mention, I do believe in one thing. I just believe in me, Yoko and me.All the debating/bickering aside, that was pretty funny. :laugh::lol::laugh: :)

[DrummerDeanna]

I'm of the belief that people cling to religion and things like God because they'd feel scared, uninformed, and alone without it. I consider that a sign of weakness. From what I've gathered, Lux has expressed the same belief that people who cling to religion are weak. And then I read a post in this very thread where someone said that people who don't have any faith are weak, too.


And that in itself is a very narrow-minded view. I don't "Cling" to religion - nor would I feel scared or uninformed without it. I have gone through periods in my life without religion - I just choose to practice a faith. Why? Because I like to think that ultimately there is a bigger purpose to life.

One doesn't need to have a religion/faith to believe that - it's just the way I am. I have questioned, I continue to question daily - but my association with a religion - or my belief structure do not make me weak - it's quite opposite actually - they make me stronger.

It's what I choose to believe - I have never called anyone who does not believe "weak" in fact I've never put anyone on this board down for not believing :shrug: I just would like the same respect in return. You cannot lump all religious or spiritual people into one group - same as you can't lump all non-believers into one group....

[GateandGarden]

I'm of the belief that people cling to religion and things like God because they'd feel scared, uninformed, and alone without it. I consider that a sign of weakness. From what I've gathered, Lux has expressed the same belief that people who cling to religion are weak. And then I read a post in this very thread where someone said that people who don't have any faith are weak, too.I think you're simplifiying it. There is a way to look at the Bible and say, Hey, there's some value in this. There could be some truth to this" and on and on. (The Bible is just my example; the same applies to any book of its kind). But you don't allow your whole life to depend on it. You're able to say, "Yes, there could be other ways. There are other answers. Because we don't know for sure" and on and on. You can still think for yourself. The Bible does not think for you, but you consider what it has to say. (Again, the Bible is just an example). I think it's called being open-minded. :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

You think I'm narrow-minded when I express my views and I'm not allowed to think others are weak when they express theirs?Since you just said that you "question daily," then it's hard to call you narrow-minded. And from what I know about you as a person, I don't think of you as narrow-minded at all. But some of the comments you've made in this thread have sounded narrow-minded, IMO.

You're allowed to think anyone's weak if you wanted to. I never said you weren't "allowed" to. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

I think you're simplifiying it. There is a way to look at the Bible and say, Hey, there's some value in this. There could be some truth to this" and on and on. (The Bible is just my example; the same applies to any book of its kind). But you don't allow your whole life to depend on it. You're able to say, "Yes, there could be other ways. There are other answers. Because we don't know for sure" and on and on. You can still think for yourself. The Bible does not think for you, but you consider what it has to say. (Again, the Bible is just an example). I think it's called being open-minded. :shrug;



Right. I like the way you put that - that is pretty much my relationship with the Bible. I'm not a literalist - I don't take the Bible word for word literally...but I do find some good and some value in it.

There are open-minded religious folks out there (I'm on of them) - and I simply ask that people give me the same respect that I show them...it's one of the most basic of human rules..EVERY religion has a way of saying, "Do unto others as you'd have done onto you." It's a good philosophy I think....:shrug:

I don't call non-believers names and whatnot...

ALTHOUGH - I know there's a double standard of sorts here because I dislike the Religious right as much as the next guy and frankly hate religious fundamentalism and extremism..

BUT as Hillary said, I actually am not a fan of extremism in any form...

[GateandGarden]

Do you mean to imply that someone not open to faith is narrow-minded?I have a feeling I'm going to regret such an assertion, as it seems like too much of a generalized statement, but I suppose that's what I'm implying.

[GateandGarden]

I did? I don't recall that. I'm confused.
"One doesn't need to have a religion/faith to believe that - it's just the way I am. I have questioned, I continue to question daily - but my association with a religion - or my belief structure do not make me weak - it's quite opposite actually - they make me stronger."

Sounds like a good way to look at things to me. :shrug:

[skcin]

"One doesn't need to have a religion/faith to believe that - it's just the way I am. I have questioned, I continue to question daily - but my association with a religion - or my belief structure do not make me weak - it's quite opposite actually - they make me stronger."

Sounds like a good way to look at things to me. :shrug:


That was Dee.

[GateandGarden]

That was Dee.:o I feel like such an idiot. I think that's the first time I've made that kind of mistake. Probably won't be the last. Sorry about that, y'all. It kind of takes something away from the debate when I can't even sort out who said what. That's unfortunate. :distress:

[GateandGarden]

I thought you were quoting and addressing me. That wasn't me.Yeah, Paula clued me in. Sorry. :(

[sodascouts]

It puzzles me that those who are casting epithets at people with different belief systems act so affronted when the same judgment is made upon their own.

Perhaps yours isn't so much better than anyone else's after all.

[seeker007nmss]

Okay, after plowing through ALL the posts I have the following opinions.


1. Why do some have to define their significance by the impact and attention of others? Can't you be siginificant on your own? Be yourself and follow your own way.

2. Why is being percieved "weak" a negitive? It is a beginning, and a place to begin to get stronger. If I hurt my foot and have to use a crutch to get stronger, why is that considered a negative? And weak compared to what? We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it just isn't your path.

3. Just because I am on a path and am not yet ready to consider other point of views yet, why is this "narrow minded?" Perhaps I have to get through this section before I can continue on. Maybe I am not ready yet to see other ways just yet,..if ever, but this is MY path.

4. I get the impression that people feel life is a big competition, where they compare themselves to others. I think everyone has their own paths, their own speed/level of growing and learning. As long as you aren't hindering anothers path, why do you care if they different views?

5. No one has all the answers, (in fact the more you know, the more you realize how much there is left to learn).

6. and finally, I hate to mention this, but....a friend of mine works in homicide and I am afraid your pet cat (if left alone for days as your corpse lays there to be found) will probally feed upon your carcuss. He has seen it happen a few times where little puppy tippy uses old grandma penny for a snack to survive.


(Leaving soapbox now for next person.......)

[sodascouts]

6. and finally, I hate to mention this, but....a friend of mine works in homicide and I am afraid your pet cat (if left alone for days as your corpse lays there to be found) will probally feed upon your carcuss. He has seen it happen a few times where little puppy tippy uses old grandma penny for a snack to survive.


Sweetie, you SO did not have to tell me that. I mean, I guess I'm glad he won't starve but... EW!!!

And I agree with your other points.

[heyjupiter678]

Okay, what religion or belief do you follow? I'm an atheist. There's no evidence for god(s), IMO, so I don't have a belief in any. I try to be respectful of others' views, though, and I hope for the same in return. :shrug:

[LikeAWillow]

Okay, after plowing through ALL the posts I have the following opinions.


1. Why do some have to define their significance by the impact and attention of others? Can't you be siginificant on your own? Be yourself and follow your own way.

2. Why is being percieved "weak" a negitive? It is a beginning, and a place to begin to get stronger. If I hurt my foot and have to use a crutch to get stronger, why is that considered a negative? And weak compared to what? We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it just isn't your path.

3. Just because I am on a path and am not yet ready to consider other point of views yet, why is this "narrow minded?" Perhaps I have to get through this section before I can continue on. Maybe I am not ready yet to see other ways just yet,..if ever, but this is MY path.

4. I get the impression that people feel life is a big competition, where they compare themselves to others. I think everyone has their own paths, their own speed/level of growing and learning. As long as you aren't hindering anothers path, why do you care if they different views?

5. No one has all the answers, (in fact the more you know, the more you realize how much there is left to learn).

6. and finally, I hate to mention this, but....a friend of mine works in homicide and I am afraid your pet cat (if left alone for days as your corpse lays there to be found) will probally feed upon your carcuss. He has seen it happen a few times where little puppy tippy uses old grandma penny for a snack to survive.


(Leaving soapbox now for next person.......)

I tend to agree with you, especially on point number 5. But I definetely did not need to know the fun pet fact :distress: That must be so disturbing for your friend to witness.

~Marissa~

[amber]

6. and finally, I hate to mention this, but....a friend of mine works in homicide and I am afraid your pet cat (if left alone for days as your corpse lays there to be found) will probally feed upon your carcuss. He has seen it happen a few times where little puppy tippy uses old grandma penny for a snack to survive.
(Leaving soapbox now for next person.......)

The best part of reading that last one, was that I was just chomping into my bagel!.... :mad: :shocked: :laugh:
Oh, your other points were nice. :)
Actually, though, it's comforting to know my cats wouldn't starve if I died. :shrug: It's a nice way to really, really, be part of the circle of life... :) :woohoo:

[seeker007nmss]

I tend to agree with you, especially on point number 5. But I definetely did not need to know the fun pet fact :distress: That must be so disturbing for your friend to witness.

~Marissa~

He is use to it now, but it was disturbing the first time he saw it. (An older lady had a few cats....and Kitties fed on her .....I wont go into the details, but they started on the the things they could reach.....Things not covered by clothing........ eeewwwwww :eek: ). Needless to say,....it had to be a closed casket funeral at that point. :distress:

[GateandGarden]

Isn't that narrow-minded in itself. Oh well, I must be the most narrow-minded person imaginable because I have no faith in anything, I think the idea of a higher being is as ridiculous as kids' story and I have no faith that there is anything looking out for people. So I'm just narrow-minded. Why the complaints about my accusation of weakness then?You can say that my statement was narrow-minded, but I think it's kind of circular logic. I don't really know. Whatever, the case, all I can say is that I don't understand much of what you said in this post I've quoted above. I don't mean that like I don't get it, like I have no reading comprehension skills, I just can't understand where you're coming from, I suppose. But maybe it doesn't matter. I guess you don't understand anything I've been saying, either, in the same sense. Whether you have or you haven't, I feel like I can't say anymore about it because I've simply run out of ways to explain myself, and I'm also afraid to say more because I don't want to offend you, nor do I want to risk possibly hurting you with anything I say because I care about you.

[LikeAWillow]

He is use to it now, but it was disturbing the first time he saw it. (An older lady had a few cats....and Kitties fed on her .....I wont go into the details, but they started on the the things they could reach.....Things not covered by clothing........ eeewwwwww :eek: ). Needless to say,....it had to be a closed casket funeral at that point. :distress:

Aww, that's so sad! Although, ur rite Amber, its kinda nice to know that ur pets won't starve :) Even if it is a lil gross to imagine... :eek:

[amber]

Aww, that's so sad! Although, ur rite Amber, its kinda nice to know that ur pets won't starve :) Even if it is a lil gross to imagine... :eek:
:lol: :lol:
It's totally gross, luckily, we will be in no position to care. And if our soul, or whatever, can see, we would probably be happy. :) Ha, i just had visions of my soul trying to shoo my cats away from my body. "no kitty! bad kitty!" a la South Park.... :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

Okay, after plowing through ALL the posts I have the following opinions.


1. Why do some have to define their significance by the impact and attention of others? Can't you be siginificant on your own? Be yourself and follow your own way.

2. Why is being percieved "weak" a negitive? It is a beginning, and a place to begin to get stronger. If I hurt my foot and have to use a crutch to get stronger, why is that considered a negative? And weak compared to what? We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it just isn't your path.

3. Just because I am on a path and am not yet ready to consider other point of views yet, why is this "narrow minded?" Perhaps I have to get through this section before I can continue on. Maybe I am not ready yet to see other ways just yet,..if ever, but this is MY path.

4. I get the impression that people feel life is a big competition, where they compare themselves to others. I think everyone has their own paths, their own speed/level of growing and learning. As long as you aren't hindering anothers path, why do you care if they different views?

5. No one has all the answers, (in fact the more you know, the more you realize how much there is left to learn).

6. and finally, I hate to mention this, but....a friend of mine works in homicide and I am afraid your pet cat (if left alone for days as your corpse lays there to be found) will probally feed upon your carcuss. He has seen it happen a few times where little puppy tippy uses old grandma penny for a snack to survive.


(Leaving soapbox now for next person.......)
Wonderful post. About #1...I personally feel like I haven't really accomplished anything if my life comes to an end and I have not managed to impact another's life in a positive way. I guess I could go for a little while saying that I want only to live for myself all the time, and I would listen to Fleetwood Mac CDs and sing and read, but eventually I would start thinking that enjoying those things is not enough of a reason for me to be alive. I know she comes up a lot, but we're really close so it makes sense to me to bring her up--I never really have lived just for me because of my Mom. She has done all that can for me and I think I should do things for her as well. I can't allow everything to be all about me.

I think the others are very, very good points. Thanks for explaining things that way and making me think.

Oh, and #6 is gross. :laugh:

[seeker007nmss]

Wonderful post. About #1...I personally feel like I haven't really accomplished anything if my life comes to an end and I have not managed to impact another's life in a positive way. I guess I could go for a little while saying that I want only to live for myself all the time, and I would listen to Fleetwood Mac CDs and sing and read, but eventually I would start thinking that enjoying those things is not enough of a reason for me to be alive. I know she comes up a lot, but we're really close so it makes sense to me to bring her up--I never really have lived just for me because of my Mom. She has done all that can for me and I think I should do things for her as well. I can't allow everything to be all about me.

I think the others are very, very good points. Thanks for explaining things that way and making me think.

Oh, and #6 is gross. :laugh:

I agree with your points on helping others, Mine was more of a response to some of the previous posts. I just think you have to be happy with yourself and not place so much emphasis on what others may think. Walk your own path kind of thing.

And sorry about the pet thing, but it happens. :eek: I didn't want Amber to worry about her kittty. :p

[wondergirl9847]

I try to be respectful of all people's views..but a lot of times that respect is not reciprocated (ie - saying people who follow a faith are weak or ignorant.) I am not weak or ignorant - I know that my faith may not be absolute truth - but I CHOOSE to follow it because it gives me strength and comfort - and it feels good knowing that someone is watching out for me.

Amen. :)

I'm a Christian. Not Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, just...Christian. I grew up in a Baptist school (Kindergarten through 8th grade) and went to various Protestant churches as a kid. I've read and studied the Bible, I pray, and have a relationship with God. I was baptised at the church I attended for 4 years (1996 to 2000). I gather strength from my faith and it does help me get through difficult times. I believe in angels and miracles.

I'm not perfect, nobody is. I just try to treat others with respect and ask the same in return. Also, I hope that my life is a testament to Christ's love and teachings.

[wondergirl9847]

I'm an atheist. There's no evidence for god(s), IMO, so I don't have a belief in any.

I probably shouldn't bring it up because it COULD turn ugly (I hope not though :distress: ), but which theory do you believe in regarding how the universe came to be?

[GateandGarden]

I agree with your points on helping others, Mine was more of a response to some of the previous posts. I just think you have to be happy with yourself and not place so much emphasis on what others may think. Walk your own path kind of thing.I see what you're saying and I do agree. :nod:

[DrummerDeanna]

I see what you're saying and I do agree. :nod:



Me too :nod: I think being happy with one's self is SO important - it alleviates a lot of problems in life...that may sound odd - but I think it does...:\

I don't about having a positive impact on people's lives...I don't so much do things for that purpose...but I do things because I feel "called" to do some of them....

Like I used to work at this homeless shelter in Phoenix for a week out of the year...I did it three times...I LOVED it - I have always felt a strong calling to work with the homeless...and the Catholic Church has a lot of good social justice things etc - a lot dealing with the poor and homeless that I like....programs that DON'T require people to preach to or try to convert the homeless (that part is also important to me)

I guess with that I agree with what Christy says, I don't feel the need to around verbalizing my faith - I just try to live by the tenets of my faith and hope that it is clear through my actions...

A quote: "Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary use words" - I've always liked that one :)

[heyjupiter678]

I probably shouldn't bring it up because it COULD turn ugly (I hope not though :distress: ), but which theory do you believe in regarding how the universe came to be? I don't subscribe to any particular theory regarding the origins of the universe. I don't know how it came to be. :shrug:

[David]

I don't subscribe to any particular theory regarding the origins of the universe. I don't know how it came to be. :shrug:I like you!

[David]

I'm not perfect, nobody is. I just try to treat others with respect and ask the same in return. That's why you rock, Miss Christy.

[wondergirl9847]

A quote: "Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary use words" - I've always liked that one :)


Exactly. Show people Christ's love through the way you treat them...be kind, respectful, courteous and loving towards EVERYONE. It's difficult, nobody said it was easy to love all mankind, but we can try. :)

Thanks, David...you're pretty groovy yourself. ;)

[dissention]

Isn't that narrow-minded in itself. Oh well, I must be the most narrow-minded person imaginable because I have no faith in anything, I think the idea of a higher being is as ridiculous as kids' story and I have no faith that there is anything looking out for people. So I'm just narrow-minded. Why the complaints about my accusation of weakness then?

Exactly. We're narrow-minded because we don't entertain the possibility that there's a supreme being that created us all. ;)

[estranged4life]

Me too :nod: I think being happy with one's self is SO important - it alleviates a lot of problems in life...that may sound odd - but I think it does...:\

to a "T", I am happy with myself...As long as that is #1 to me I get can thru ANYTHING that has been thrown my way, And I am still here even after yet having to deal with another family tragedy :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Exactly. We're narrow-minded because we don't entertain the possibility that there's a supreme being that created us all. ;)

No it is just that you have admitted taking joy in purposefully picking on people's religion rather that showing religious people any respect.

[dissention]

No it is just that you have admitted taking joy in purposefully picking on people's religion rather that showing religious people any respect.

Context is a wonderful thing. Go find the thread where we had that discussion and link to it so that people can read it if you want to bring it up, dear. Your summary oversimplified what I said.

[strandinthewind]

Context is a wonderful thing. Go find the thread where we had that discussion and link to it so that people can read it if you want to bring it up, dear. Your summary oversimplified what I said.

I am so not wasting my time doing that. But you can feel free to.

In any event, if what I said is 100% untrue, you can always state so now :wavey:

[dissention]

I am so not wasting my time doing that. But you can feel free to.

Nope, I'm all set. I wasted enough time searching through the Pope thread to see where people were "beating" on him and your claim turned out to be unfounded.

In any event, if what I said is 100% untrue, you can always state so now :wavey:

Not untrue, just misleading in the context in which you said it. If I recall correctly, Hillary began a discussion about when it was okay to disrespect people who didn't warrant any respect and I said something along the lines of it isn't okay to disrespect anyone, but we're all human and we all do it. I used an example of when people try to shove God down my throat, I sometimes say things that are very disrespectful to them regarding their religious beliefs.

[strandinthewind]

Nope, I'm all set. I wasted enough time searching through the Pope thread to see where people were "beating" on him and your claim turned out to be unfounded.

When I read that thread initially, I took some of the comments to be mean spirited. Once people explained that they were not, I apologized for the misinterpretation. So, nice try.

Not untrue, just misleading in the context in which you said it. If I recall correctly, Hillary began a discussion about when it was okay to disrespect people who didn't warrant any respect and I said something along the lines of it isn't okay to disrespect anyone, but we're all human and we all do it. I used an example of when people try to shove God down my throat, I sometimes say things that are very disrespectful to them regarding their religious beliefs.

Actually, I remember you were more general than that. But, since neither one of us wants to look it up - so be it. Personally, I think if you knew you were correct here, you would look it up in a heartbeat :wavey:

[dissention]

When I read that thread initially, I took some of the comments to be mean spirited. Once people explained that they were not, I apologized for the misinterpretation. So, nice try.

Well, there's nothing I can say to that. If I was going to meanspirited about the Pope, I wouldn't have bit my tongue so hard in that thread. Instead, for once, I took the high road.

Actually, I remember you were more general than that. But, since neither one of us wants to look it up - so be it. Personally, I think if you knew you were correct here, you would look it up in a heartbeat :wavey:

More general? Hardly. I said the exact same thing.

"Feelings and actions of disrespect depend entirely on the person and the situation. I can be quite disrespectful, I'd never attempt to say otherwise. There are times when people get on my goat so much that I actively try to disrespect them. Take religious people, for example. I have such a disdain for religion that when people talk to me about it or tell them how they'll pray to God for this or that, sometimes I'll take glee in offending them. But I'm only human and I'm not perfect."

Happy, dear? I think it would be as offensive as you make it out to be if I hadn't acknowledged such behavior as wrong and disrespectful. But I suppose you only remember what you want to remember.

[dissention]

I'm not sure if this is what you guys are talking about but the accusation I was referrering to was from post 134 and then 138 of this thread. Is this the reference you're arguing over or am I completely missing something?

Nope. He's talking about a thread from a month ago where I said that when people get all up in my face with their godspeak (which I find to be disrespectful), I'll be disrespectful back to them. Doesn't make it right by any means, but at least I can recognize such behavior within myself.

[strandinthewind]

In the statement

"Feelings and actions of disrespect depend entirely on the person and the situation. I can be quite disrespectful, I'd never attempt to say otherwise. There are times when people get on my goat so much that I actively try to disrespect them. Take religious people, for example. I have such a disdain for religion that when people talk to me about it or tell them how they'll pray to God for this or that, sometimes I'll take glee in offending them. But I'm only human and I'm not perfect."

you hardly limit your glee to people shoving God down your throat as you suggested earlier in this thread. Rather, you specifically refer to a generic "religious people," your disdain for "religion," and that you take "glee" in offending people who merely "talk to me about it or tell them how they'll pray to God for this or that" - that is not the same thing as shoving their God down your throat :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Nope. He's talking about a thread from a month ago where I said that when people get all up in my face with their godspeak (which I find to be disrespectful), I'll be disrespectful back to them. Doesn't make it right by any means, but at least I can recognize such behavior within myself.

Well, the larger point was related to the narrowminded comment.

[GateandGarden]

Exactly. We're narrow-minded because we don't entertain the possibility that there's a supreme being that created us all. ;)I'm all tuckered out from debating all of this but wanted to point one thing out. Spirituality is not all about the possibility of the existence of a supreme being. For me personally, it certainly isn't all about that, and I wish you wouldn't oversimplify it.

[strandinthewind]

I'm all tuckered out from debating all of this but wanted to point one thing out. Spirituality is not all about the possibility of the existence of a supreme being. For me personally, it certainly isn't all about that, and I wish you wouldn't oversimplify it.

He cannot. As he just reiterated, he has a general disdain for religion - apparently all of it :shrug: - which is his right.

Also, I agree that organized religion is not spirituality - though they can coexist, albeit rarely so IMO.

[GateandGarden]

In the statement

"Feelings and actions of disrespect depend entirely on the person and the situation. I can be quite disrespectful, I'd never attempt to say otherwise. There are times when people get on my goat so much that I actively try to disrespect them. Take religious people, for example. I have such a disdain for religion that when people talk to me about it or tell them how they'll pray to God for this or that, sometimes I'll take glee in offending them. But I'm only human and I'm not perfect."

you hardly limit your glee to people shoving God down your throat as you suggested earlier in this thread. Rather, you specifically refer to a generic "religious people," your disdain for "religion," and that you take "glee" in offending people who merely "talk to me about it or tell them how they'll pray to God for this or that" - that is not the same thing as shoving their God down your throat :shrug:I don't know why I'm getting into this, but I have to say that I agree with Jason. In reference to that particular quote, I think it's very unfair to "religious people" in general, as we all know they are not all the same. And some people do not mean to condescend when they discuss their beliefs. It's a long way from, "I believe such and such" to "I need you to see the absolute truth."

[strandinthewind]

I don't know why I'm getting into this, . . .

"RUN FOR YOU LIFE" Mad Hatter :cool:

[GateandGarden]

He cannot. As he just reiterated, he has a general disdain for religion - apparently all of it :shrug: - which is his right.

Also, I agree that organized religion is not spirituality - though they can coexist, albeit rarely so IMO.Well, I personally don't approve of organized religion, but there are a lot of people who are Christians and spiritual people on this board who don't actually participate in organized religion. All of that being said, it is his right to hate religion as you said, so I don't want to act like I have all the answers and I think he needs to change, because I don't think that much of myself. I just think he's oversimplifying a lot of things.

[GateandGarden]

"RUN FOR YOU LIFE" Mad Hatter :cool::laugh::lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't know why I'm getting into this, but I have to say that I agree with Jason. In reference to that particular quote, I think it's very unfair to "religious people" in general, as we all know they are not all the same. And some people do not mean to condescend when they discuss their beliefs. It's a long way from, "I believe such and such" to "I need you to see the absolute truth."

Hm...had to step away from the Ledge for a while at work...but I really enjoyed these last few posts....I agree with you and Jason....good stuff being said...:D

I realize that there are people who have a real disdain for religion - any religion....and I totally understand that there are some wacked out Christians (and members of other religions) around...and they're going around giving us a bad name....but that exists in any group.

I've said that before though....but it's true - I've met some mean and hateful atheists...I don't hate ALL atheists or atheism as a result :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Hm...had to step away from the Ledge for a while at work...but I really enjoyed these last few posts....I agree with you and Jason....good stuff being said...:D

I realize that there are people who have a real disdain for religion - any religion....and I totally understand that there are some wacked out Christians (and members of other religions) around...and they're going around giving us a bad name....but that exists in any group.

I've said that before though....but it's true - I've met some mean and hateful atheists...I don't hate ALL atheists or atheism as a result :shrug:

I think saying all Christians are zealots is the same as saying all black people steal. It is a stereotype based on the actions of some small part of a class of people or race.

Even though I know he knows this, I refered to Diss' previous comments in another thread not with derision but solely as matter of fact. I brought it up as an indication of why I thought he was at times narrowminded about religion. I see what I interpreted as disdain for all religion (which he has refuted) as being narrowminded. That is all I was saying.

on edit - also organized religion has caused most of the great joy and simultaneously most of the greatest sorrow in the world and this yin and yang if you will exists to this day. So, it is quite understandable when people have nothing but contempt for religion. I do not, however, have such conempt.

[dissention]

that is not the same thing as shoving their God down your throat :shrug:

It is to me. :shrug: Love your God. Pray to Him. Worship Him. But don't bring him up to me because I don't want to hear it in my life when I'm conversing with someone. Someone bringing up their God to me is just as disrespectful as me talking badly about Him and your religion.

[DrummerDeanna]

It is to me. :shrug: Love your God. Pray to Him. Worship Him. But don't bring him up to me because I don't want to hear it in my life when I'm conversing with someone.

Then why don't you afford the same respect to others? I don't want to hear people bashing my religion and making fun of the names God and Jesus...?

By voicing what I believe - I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat...:shrug:

I really don't get what is SO offensive about someone saying, "I believe it God" :shrug:

Or even the word, "God" or anything....if you don't like it then why not ignore it rather than putting people's views and beliefs down?

[Vianna]

I am no organized religion. I believe in God but not the Christian view of him or the Jewish view of him or the Muslim view of him etc. Religions try to put God in a box and describe him. If he can be described he isn't God. I love this little jingle I read in a play called JB by Archibald MacLeish:

If God is God he is not good
If God is good he is not God
Take the even, take the odd
I wiould not sleep here if I could
Except for the little green leaves in the woode
And the wind on the water..

Organized religions also tend to produce fanatics-another reason I want nothing to do with them.

As for your loved ones who die-to you they will never be exactly dead because of your memories of them.

[strandinthewind]

It is to me. :shrug: Love your God. Pray to Him. Worship Him. But don't bring him up to me because I don't want to hear it in my life when I'm conversing with someone. Someone bringing up their God to me is just as disrespectful as me talking badly about Him and your religion.

Well, you can think that, but 99.9% of the people in the world probably do not. I mean you have called people "evil" in our discussions here. The use of the word "evil" could be construed under your def. as shoving religion down people's throats because evil is an inherently religious word. And - as I have often said, your disdain for God appears only to be toward Christianity and perhaps the Jewish faith. You never clam Buddahists, Hinduists, etc.

Also, your statement that the mere mention of the word God brings you glee in rudely asserting your disdain is hardly having an open mind :shrug: I mean no one deserves to get that just for mentioning something :shrug:

[dissention]

Well, you can think that, but 99.9% of the people in the world probably do not. I mean you have called people "evil" in our discussions here. The use of the word "evil" could be construed under your def. as shoving religion down people's throats because evil is an inherently religious word. And - as I have often said, your disdain for God appears only to be toward Christianity and perhaps the Jewish faith. You never clam Buddahists, Hinduists, etc.

Oh well. I suppose I come off too strongly and could use better words, but I certainly don't feel any differently.

Also, your statement that the mere mention of the word God brings you glee in rudely asserting your disdain is hardly having an open mind :shrug: I mean no one deserves to get that just for mentioning something :shrug:

I said "there are times." ;)

[sodascouts]

It is to me. :shrug: Love your God. Pray to Him. Worship Him. But don't bring him up to me because I don't want to hear it in my life when I'm conversing with someone. Someone bringing up their God to me is just as disrespectful as me talking badly about Him and your religion.

Wow. So no one is to speak of God in your presence or it's disrespectful to you? I had no idea you were that intolerant. I mean you've said before you fear and loathe religion and religious people, which is certainly not an unusual attitude - it's one many people share. But few are this extreme! I truly am amazed.

[GateandGarden]

Oh well. I suppose I come off too strongly and could use better words, but I certainly don't feel any differently.To say that you don't want to hear about anyone's beliefs that differ from your own is insensitive to me in some situations, but more so impractical than anything else. If one of your friend's had a death in his or her family and said something to you like "I hope God is taking care of him or her" and is obviously grieving, are you going to say, "Yeah right! There is no god, and please don't bring that crap up again."

After a guy broke into my house and came into my bedroom last summer, I had to hear all kinds of religious phrases coming from people when it was all over. One of my friends kept saying, "Thank God he didn't hurt you." "Thank God you're okay" like, fifty times. I didn't stop and say, "Wait a minute, I don't want to hear that because I don't even really believe in god."

From your last post, I'm getting that you wouldn't say those things, either. But you say you don't feel any differently. Does that mean you'd be thinking the things I said above rather than saying them? It seems to me like having that much disdain for the concept of a supreme being and carrying that around all the time can get tiring when dealing with people. There are just too many people out there who think, at the very least, that there is some possibility there's a god. And people will inevitably talk about it. It's pretty difficult to avoid unless you just stay at home. :shrug:

EDIT: And I also want to add, though, as I said earlier, I don't know why I decided to go through this again tonight! :laugh: There are simply "too many flowers to cut down," and I suck at it, anyway. But do you really want to close your mind so much that you won't allow anyone to even mention god, just to discuss it, not to try to push you or win you over, just to discuss it? You don't know for a fact that there is no god. I think it's a topic worth exploring, discussing, debating, etc. :shrug:

[DrummerDeanna]

"I hope God is taking care of him or her" and is obviously grieving, are you going to say, "Yeah right! There is no god, and please don't bring that crap up again."



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I'm sorry -that, for some reason, just cracked me up! Can you imagine? That would be so sad....

Anyway - just to sort of add to your point - I think that the term "god" has also become SO common place and some people use it not even realizing there is a religious connotation...it's become just a phrase to them...

Examples: "god bless you" when someone sneezes, "oh god :rolleyes:" when something is absurd or whatever, "thank god" -when something has a good outcome - though not everyone really actually means, "Thank God"

Does that make sense? I think another great example is, "god dammit"

I think that even non-religious folks use these phrases because they've become so common....just a thought :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I'm sorry -that, for some reason, just cracked me up! Can you imagine? That would be so sad....Yeah, wouldn't that be the ideal time to launch into a spiel about how you think anything spiritual is the biggest load of horse**** ever? :laugh:

[sodascouts]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I'm sorry -that, for some reason, just cracked me up! Can you imagine? That would be so sad....

Anyway - just to sort of add to your point - I think that the term "god" has also become SO common place and some people use it not even realizing there is a religious connotation...it's become just a phrase to them...

Examples: "god bless you" when someone sneezes, "oh god :rolleyes:" when something is absurd or whatever, "thank god" -when something has a good outcome - though not everyone really actually means, "Thank God"

Does that make sense? I think another great example is, "god dammit"

I think that even non-religious folks use these phrases because they've become so common....just a thought :shrug:

Not to speak for dissention, but my impression is that he's speaking of genuine religious expression and not the commonplaces such as the above which, you're right, have little to no religious meaning for many people nowadays.

[DrummerDeanna]

Not to speak for dissention, but my impression is that he's speaking of genuine religious expression and not the commonplaces such as the above which, you're right, have little to no religious meaning for many people nowadays.


I see that - I was just sort of writing what Hillary's post brought to my mind...you can't get away from it...."god" I mean - though you're right, I think, that Diss was talking about the actually religion-speak God that people refer to...

[ShamHy89]

I'm a Catholic.
A quote: "Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary use words" - I've always liked that one
St. Francis. What a guy.

Shamus

[Serrart]

Really? I would have thought that the ability to cope by oneself is not a sign of weakness. I would have thought that the need to look to some greater plan as a comfort would be weaker, but then I'm arrogant so perhaps my view is slanted.

But you have music idols right? The mechanism isn't that different, it's only a display of promises and dreams on a smaller scale. It's like to be an Apollon's believer. To have a real and honest spiritual faith is just more engaging. And this comes from an agnostic.

Romy

[Serrart]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Isn't that more a matter of occupying time?

That would be to listen to music or watching a movie without giving a second thought to a musician or an actor except saying " oh yes, he/she' s great". When you idolize someone (buying all his/her records, collecting things about her/him talking of him/her constantly, going to his/her concerts, trying to meet him/her, etc) you project on him/her much of your expectations and that's a very comfortable and easily marketable subform of belief, IMO. It makes the world more enjoyable :nod: , but the basic need is the same, I think.


Romy

[amber]

That would be to listen to music or watching a movie without giving a second thought to a musician or an actor except saying " oh yes, he/she' s great". When you idolize someone (buying all his/her records, collecting things about her/him talking of him/her constantly, going to his/her concerts, trying to meet him/her, etc) you project on him/her much of your expectations and that's a very comfortable and easily marketable subform of belief, IMO. It makes the world more enjoyable :nod: , but the basic need is the same, I think.


Romy
Excellent Point.

[Serrart]

I still don't get it because I was referring to the need to have a greater plan in place by a being able to control us, so as to avoid confronting the idea that everything is random. I can idolise a musician and even put expectations in them but it doesn't cure the harshness of the lack of control I have and the randomness that I believe exists.

That's why I said on a smaller scale. The need of a greater plan is replaced by an olympus of lesser gods. In the randomness of the world they are a safe oasis, to look at when you need____ (emotions, peace, joy, etc). Moreover they're much less demanding and easier to control than a real religion, no risk to finish in hell if you stop buying their records. ;)

Romy

[Serrart]

Excellent Point.

Thanks Amber, I wasn't sure it made sense in English (I had doubts also in Italian :cool: ).

Romy

[GateandGarden]

That would be to listen to music or watching a movie without giving a second thought to a musician or an actor except saying " oh yes, he/she' s great". When you idolize someone (buying all his/her records, collecting things about her/him talking of him/her constantly, going to his/her concerts, trying to meet him/her, etc) you project on him/her much of your expectations and that's a very comfortable and easily marketable subform of belief, IMO. It makes the world more enjoyable :nod: , but the basic need is the same, I think.


RomyThat's a really interesting point! Thanks for that post! :)

[heyjupiter678]

Ok, they do provide comfort on an immediate level but I don't turn to them as people/things that have my life set out on a path and I don't rest in the knowledge that they will love me and guide me to what is good. So I see what you're saying but I think the relationship is weak (that damn word again). I remember when the tsunami hit and somebody replied that it must have happened for a (greater) reason, which I obviously completely disagree with. I think that's a lack of comming to terms with just how harsh and random existence is. So I can gain quite a bit from idols, joy, comfort etc. but I don't know that it's entirely relevant in terms of placing one's trust in a greater plan. As I said, I think it's more a matter of occupying my time that I'm here for by filling it with those who can provide me comfort. And religious people obviously fill that hole with people and teachings that provide them with comfort, but it's a whole other level when the trust in a greater plan is concerned. Well said, Lux. I agree completely.

[CelticGypsy]

I was raised a Catholic, went to Catholic school from first to fifth grades. Hated Catholic school and did terrible with my schoolwork. Nuns had favorite kids in our classes and they showed it. I hated the rulers that was smacked on our hands if one of the mean nuns felt we were not doing good work or not being quiet enough in class. Not all nuns were bad, but a few of them should not have been teachers around children. They had no patience :( :mad: I went to public middle school and high school :) My grades improved so much that I made Honor Rolls several times :blob1: :blob2: At 17, became interested in the LDS after meeting some kids in that church and I was a member of that church off and on for about 22 yrs. My hubby came from an LDS family so we had that in common and wanted to raise our children in the church until they were old enough to decide which religion they wanted to belong to when older. We were active in that church but didn't go to the Temples all the time like other members. We had always been pretty open to visiting other churches and being around regular people. Some LDS are so afraid to be around people who are not of their own faith. For example, my brother and sister-in-law who just go to church and do not have friends outside of the church and they even think my hubby and I are bad people because we are not active in the church anymore. Some LDS members are wonderful people and go out into the world, meet other people who are not LDS and they are great people to be around since they are more open-minded about life and the world. The narrow minded ones are the people I have problems with since they live basically in a bubble.

Hubby and I are not in any organized religion now. We believe in God and Jesus and we do pray on our own. We are more happier not being part of a religious group. I feel more spiritual just walking along the ocean or gardening than I did some Sundays when I attended three hours of church meetings and would come home too tired and not very spiritually re-newed. I just felt the church wanted my time, money and energy and the more I gave, the more they wanted from me.

[amber]

I need to be more PC.

Oh and what is LDS. I read that entire post as referring to LSD, the least problem with which is that it does not make grammatic sense.
Latter. Day. Saints. (mormons)

[Miss Vicky]

Religion was never part of my upbringing. I don't even know what, if any, faith my parents adhere to. My family always celebrated the major Christian holidays - Christmas, Easter - but it had more to do with spending time with each other and the exchanging of gifts and didn't hold any sort of spiritual meaning.
Most of the older generations of my extended family, being Japanese, are Budhist but I really know nothing of that faith either.
As a child I had a sort of passive faith in God. I never attended church, nor read the Bible, nor prayed. But I had the kind of faith in things that young children have: I believed in God because adults (not necessarily my parents) and everyone else around me believed in him.
Time went on and I got older. Things happened. Loved ones became ill and in times of great grief I turned to prayer in hopes of finding solace or some sort of answer or resolution to what was going on. What I found was a realization that I had no reason to place any faith in something I couldn't see, couldn't touch and that could not provide me with the things I sought.
When I spoke of my experiences to people who do believe very strongly in God, I was told "You can't expect him to help you just because you asked for his help. You must do what you can to help yourself. He will do what he feels is right." If I cannot expect any help from him, then I have no reason to worship him or place any faith in his existence.
I don't believe that God does not exist but I'm not convinced that he does exist either. I don't live my life by what any established religion dictates, I go by my own set of personal beliefs.

[CelticGypsy]

I need to be more PC.

Oh and what is LDS. I read that entire post as referring to LSD, the least problem with which is that it does not make grammatic sense.





Lux, you definitely have some good taste if you have Bono and Lindsey on your website. :cool: :) :) What............not a Stevie fan???
I am more like Stevie when she is confronting Linds on how she writes songs in the "Destiny Rules" DVD. I write how I feel and what is in my heart too. I am too old to really care about what is the proper way of writing/using correct grammer. Some people may understand what I was trying to say. What were you on when you were reading the message :rolleyes: :lol: J/K

[Serrart]

Ok, they do provide comfort on an immediate level but I don't turn to them as people/things that have my life set out on a path and I don't rest in the knowledge that they will love me and guide me to what is good. So I see what you're saying but I think the relationship is weak (that damn word again). I remember when the tsunami hit and somebody replied that it must have happened for a (greater) reason, which I obviously completely disagree with. I think that's a lack of comming to terms with just how harsh and random existence is. So I can gain quite a bit from idols, joy, comfort etc. but I don't know that it's entirely relevant in terms of placing one's trust in a greater plan. As I said, I think it's more a matter of occupying my time that I'm here for by filling it with those who can provide me comfort. And religious people obviously fill that hole with people and teachings that provide them with comfort, but it's a whole other level when the trust in a greater plan is concerned.

IMO, it's only a matter of how engaging answers have to be to fulfill your need to trust. Most of us, even many of those who declare themselves religious but can't really have a honest faith, are content with everyday and expendable answers like a fandom can be. Some of us are able to really believe. In a God, the power of science, the humanity, for example, and that's a gift, for me.

Romy

[Sugar]

I kinda don't think there's a guy in a white beard overseeing all of us keeping track of everything we do (Wait! Did I just describe Santa Claus??? :lol: ). Everything just seems too complex for that.

I've actually given some serious thought to the possibility of polytheism--that is, that there's a number of gods out there doing their thing (now I sound like Lindsey!) I know a witch who has proven herself to be fairly effective in making certain things happen, so that has really influenced my perception (Now I really sound like Lindsey! :p J/K!)

Ultimately I suppose I'm agnostic. I suspect there's something going on out there, but I don't know if there's any way we can really know about it. I have been known to pray, but I have no problem addressing my prayer to "whomever is listening." I suppose that sounds odd to many of you.

I just try to be true to my heart. It doesn't make sense to me (in my heart) to not accept gays, especially when I know so many wonderful gay people, so I can't embrace any faith that would expect me to. That sort of thing.

Just this reporter's opinion...

[estranged4life]

I kinda don't think there's a guy in a white beard overseeing all of us keeping track of everything we do (Wait! Did I just describe Santa Claus??? :lol: ). Everything just seems too complex for that.

or should I say "Ho Ho Ho" (Which is a copyrighted phrase for the Green Giant :lol: )

Ya know I never have believed that the higher power is a male, I prefer to think the higher power is a female, Cause males in this world sure love to f**k up everything...Right Presidunce Bush?

[Sugar]

or should I say "Ho Ho Ho" (Which is a copyrighted phrase for the Green Giant :lol: )

Ya know I never have believed that the higher power is a male, I prefer to think the higher power is a female, Cause males in this world sure love to f**k up everything...Right Presidunce Bush?

Yes, that would seem to make sense since females are the "creators" of the species.

PS Glad to see you're holding up there, Brian. I'll pray to whomever's listening to cut you a break! :)

[wondergirl9847]

I kinda don't think there's a guy in a white beard overseeing all of us keeping track of everything we do (Wait! Did I just describe Santa Claus??? :lol: ). Everything just seems too complex for that.

I don't believe that God/Jesus is a man with a white beard or anything like that. I don't think Jesus was a "white" man either. I hate the term white...but anyways. God is not in human form, I see Him as an energy, a light....a being. I don't believe Heaven is above us or Hell below us, they are in other dimensions *cue Twilight Zone music*. I think a lot of people think in those type of terms, literally, because if you grew up like I did, you really did think Heaven was just above the clouds and Hell was below your feet. :shocked: Now that I'm adult, I know that's silly.

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't believe that God/Jesus is a man with a white beard or anything like that. I don't think Jesus was a "white" man either. I hate the term white...but anyways. God is not in human form, I see Him as an energy, a light....a being. I don't believe Heaven is above us or Hell below us, they are in other dimensions *cue Twilight Zone music*. I think a lot of people think in those type of terms, literally, because if you grew up like I did, you really did think Heaven was just above the clouds and Hell was below your feet. :shocked: Now that I'm adult, I know that's silly.


Yup :nod: What she said :D

[The Tower]

I went into a meeting a couple of weeks ago with my co-worker, my direct supervisor and the COO of the company. While we were waiting for the Director or Purchasing to show up, the COO pulls out a copy of Christian Living Magazine. He is on the cover with his wife (there's an article about christian businesses and the story of his life and "rebirth") and he asks us all if we had seen the magazine. I was stunned. I just buried my head in the reports that I had brought with me and ignored it.

The company I work for is owned by evangelical, conservative christians. However, they are trying to go to the "next level" and so they brought in a consultant to help them out. One of the things that the consultant made them do was to point out to the rest of the company personnel that the company is NOT a christian company. Interesting that the magazine display came many weeks after the "we are not a christian company" bull****.

Anyways, I guess my point is this. I don't think people realize how offensive religion can be to other people. Here in America, a majority of people identify in some form or other with the judeo-christian religion. However, not everyone does. If one wants to believe in something, fine. Believe in it. There are many different places to worship one particular faith or another. But keep it out of my business. The ten commandments posted at my local courthouse? Mind your own business. Trying to convert me to your religion? Mind your own business. Injecting your religious beliefs into the laws that govern all of us? Mind your own business.

You wanna worship Jeebus? Fine. Buddah? Fine. Krishna? Fine. Mohammed? Fine. Satan? Fine. L. Ron Hubbard? Fine. Sung Yung Moon? Fine. I don't care who the hell you want to worship and what you believe, just keep it to yourself and those of your own religion. Unfortunately, the missionary sects of all these different religions just refuse to leave people alone. They can't handle giving up the power and the control that comes with subjugating others to their faith.

Oh and another thing. I don't think people should be surprised when others are offended by the religions that have victimized them.

[DrummerDeanna]

I went into a meeting a couple of weeks ago with my co-worker, my direct supervisor and the COO of the company. While we were waiting for the Director or Purchasing to show up, the COO pulls out a copy of Christian Living Magazine. He is on the cover with his wife (there's an article about christian businesses and the story of his life and "rebirth") and he asks us all if we had seen the magazine. I was stunned. I just buried my head in the reports that I had brought with me and ignored it.

The company I work for is owned by evangelical, conservative christians. However, they are trying to go to the "next level" and so they brought in a consultant to help them out. One of the things that the consultant made them do was to point out to the rest of the company personnel that the company is NOT a christian company. Interesting that the magazine display came many weeks after the "we are not a christian company" bull****.

Anyways, I guess my point is this. I don't think people realize how offensive religion can be to other people. Here in America, a majority of people identify in some form or other with the judeo-christian religion. However, not everyone does. If one wants to believe in something, fine. Believe in it. There are many different places to worship one particular faith or another. But keep it out of my business. The ten commandments posted at my local courthouse? Mind your own business. Trying to convert me to your religion? Mind your own business. Injecting your religious beliefs into the laws that govern all of us? Mind your own business.

You wanna worship Jeebus? Fine. Buddah? Fine. Krishna? Fine. Mohammed? Fine. Satan? Fine. L. Ron Hubbard? Fine. Sung Yung Moon? Fine. I don't care who the hell you want to worship and what you believe, just keep it to yourself and those of your own religion. Unfortunately, the missionary sects of all these different religions just refuse to leave people alone. They can't handle giving up the power and the control that comes with subjugating others to their faith.

Oh and another thing. I don't think people should be surprised when others are offended by the religions that have victimized them.


Okay - I can understand not wanting people to push religions into other's faces...but finding it OFFENSIVE? how?

I'm seriously asking - I would like some clarification...

I mean what is offensive about religion?

I know that many attrocities have been perpetrated because of religion - mostly I see those things as people taking religion too far...but how does that make the religion itself offensive? Or religion in general offensive?

Perhaps a belief in nothing - offends those who are religious? But that's okay?


I seriously and honeslty don't understand how one can find religion "offensive" so I'm really trying to gain an understanding of that....I'm not trying to start anything etc...

I've known people who cringe when the name "Jesus" is mentioned..(and I'm talking in a non "I'm trying to save you" fashion....) - why? Why is the mention of God or Jesus offensive?

Plese shed some light on this for me....

[strandinthewind]

I went into a meeting a couple of weeks ago with my co-worker, my direct supervisor and the COO of the company. While we were waiting for the Director or Purchasing to show up, the COO pulls out a copy of Christian Living Magazine. He is on the cover with his wife (there's an article about christian businesses and the story of his life and "rebirth") and he asks us all if we had seen the magazine. I was stunned. I just buried my head in the reports that I had brought with me and ignored it.

The company I work for is owned by evangelical, conservative christians. However, they are trying to go to the "next level" and so they brought in a consultant to help them out. One of the things that the consultant made them do was to point out to the rest of the company personnel that the company is NOT a christian company. Interesting that the magazine display came many weeks after the "we are not a christian company" bull****.

Was it that you were scared if you said you believed differently than the COO you would be fired? Or was the problem that he was on the mag. in the first place? I mean you said all he asked was if you and other workers had seen the magazine. That to me is not shoving it down your throat. All you had to say was no you had not, congrats., etc. He did not appear to me to be saying joing me or see ya :shrug: - though you certainly could have felt that way though I do not know how your company runs other than the little bit you have mentioned. It also is not like he was on the cover of Klan weekly :eek: (a little humor here :cool: )

Note - I am not attacking you or anything like that. I am just curious :wavey:

Anyways, I guess my point is this. I don't think people realize how offensive religion can be to other people. Here in America, a majority of people identify in some form or other with the judeo-christian religion. However, not everyone does. If one wants to believe in something, fine. Believe in it. There are many different places to worship one particular faith or another. But keep it out of my business. The ten commandments posted at my local courthouse? Mind your own business. Trying to convert me to your religion? Mind your own business. Injecting your religious beliefs into the laws that govern all of us? Mind your own business.

You wanna worship Jeebus? Fine. Buddah? Fine. Krishna? Fine. Mohammed? Fine. Satan? Fine. L. Ron Hubbard? Fine. Sung Yung Moon? Fine. I don't care who the hell you want to worship and what you believe, just keep it to yourself and those of your own religion. Unfortunately, the missionary sects of all these different religions just refuse to leave people alone. They can't handle giving up the power and the control that comes with subjugating others to their faith.

I agree

[strandinthewind]

Okay - I can understand not wanting people to push religions into other's faces...but finding it OFFENSIVE? how?

I'm seriously asking - I would like some clarification...

I mean what is offensive about religion?

I know that many attrocities have been perpetrated because of religion - mostly I see those things as people taking religion too far...but how does that make the religion itself offensive? Or religion in general offensive?

Perhaps a belief in nothing - offends those who are religious? But that's okay?


I seriously and honeslty don't understand how one can find religion "offensive" so I'm really trying to gain an understanding of that....I'm not trying to start anything etc...

I've known people who cringe when the name "Jesus" is mentioned..(and I'm talking in a non "I'm trying to save you" fashion....) - why? Why is the mention of God or Jesus offensive?

Plese shed some light on this for me....

Is I may :wavey: - the Roman Catholic Church and just about all of the major religions of the world have mostly directly been responsible for the world's suffering. People are hard pressed to forget that. The most extreme example I can think of is Hitler (who apparently was mostly non-religious) who persecuted a religious group for his maligned stereotyping of them and his persecution of them was based in part on the idea that the Jews killed Christ, which was an idea perpetuated by the Roman Catholic Church way back when.

I think in the last 60 years, the Catholic chrurch has come a long way from that, but it still is not that great on personal rights. I mean this is an organization that for decades just moved around pedophiles and never recognized the problem. It recognized a problem only when forced to and even then it took like 15 years all during which more kids were being sexually abused by known predators. Then, in the last few years, the Church has basically said sexual predators and homosexuals are the same thing, thus, it is the bad gay people doing this. The scientific evidence does not support this and this improperly maligns lesbians (who by definition cannot be priests) and the fact that men touched little girls as well yet we saw no blatant demonization of all of heterosexuality. That is just sick and VERY hard to overlook no matter how much good the Church does, which is a lot.

I mean ever Mother Theresa, who was a great and selfless woman, caused pain on the people of India because her faith dictated that no birth control could be used or taught. Countless children were born into disease and poverty because of that. I am not saying all of these kids were unwanted, but surely given the choice, many of these woman would have taken birth control pills :shrug:

Anyway, this is not Catholic bashing per se because the Church does a great deal of good throughout the world.

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly and related to my last post. I am all for the modernization of religion. However, a more interesting question is what is all of a sudden tommorow the world's major religions disbanded and there was no major organized religion left. What would happen? I think millions would die because the world's major religions adminsiter to the poor and sick. I also think the world in general would be worse off because organized religion is the history of the world for the last 10,000 or so years and people even today get a sense of being from it.

Anyway, food for thought.

[The Tower]

Perhaps a belief in nothing - offends those who are religious? But that's okay?
Perhaps atheism and agnosticim do offend religious people. However, the choice to respectfully tolerate religion and non-religion should be "okay" for everyone, I would think.

I seriously and honeslty don't understand how one can find religion "offensive" so I'm really trying to gain an understanding of that....I'm not trying to start anything etc...

I've known people who cringe when the name "Jesus" is mentioned..(and I'm talking in a non "I'm trying to save you" fashion....) - why? Why is the mention of God or Jesus offensive?

Plese shed some light on this for me....
I honesty can't believe that you're asking that question, but here's one.

The same magazine that was presented to me had an "advice" column written by none other than Blair herself- Lisa Whelchel. The column is called "Mom Time"- here's an excerpt:

"Dear Lisa,

My 16 year old son's more interested in the arts than in athletics, seems to have no interes in girls, and doesn't have many male friends at school or church. With all the puclicity about homosexuality today, we can't help but worry our son could be gay. What should we do?

You just described my husband, Steve, as a 16 year old. He was first chair in band, never dated, and spent more time working and studying than hanging out with the guys. Today we have a healthy 16 year marriage and three wonderful children. So just because your son doesn't resemble the sterotypical high school boy doesn't mean he's gay.

Two common threads exist among those who struggle with homosexual tendencies. First, does your son exhibit any signs of childhood molestation or incest? If you suspect this is the case, seek help from a local christion counselor.

Then look at the father/son (and for girls, the mother/daughter) relationship. Does you son feel accepted by his father? Is your husband a jock who rejects or even ridicules your son's interest in the arts? Perhaps your son's father isn't even in the picture, either by divorce, absence, death or passivity.

The father holds the key to affirming a boy's manhood. Without that blessing, a gaping hole is left in a young man's life. Fortunately, a healing substitute often can be found in a strong father figure. If not, some young men attempt to "cannibalize" other men through homosexual actions to fill that void.

I know from personal friendships it's possible for someone who struggles with homosexual temptation or who has embraced that lifestyle to find freedom and strength to change. The answer is first found in receiveng redemption through jesus christ. From there I recommend logging onto www.exodus-international.org or www.lovewonout.com for further information and direction."

That's offensive. Highly offensive. And to say that Blair Warner's claptrap from some magazine has nothing to do with religion is naive at best. Religion is the sum of its parts.

I could go on all day citing examples of how religion is offensive. However, I don't think in this day and age that people out there cannot grasp such a simple statement. If the religions would stop trying to convert everyone else to their faith, then it would no longer be offensive.

[amber]

Also, another problem is like the one Towie described about his workplace - people bringing up religion at innapropriate times. It's different when you are in a casual setting, and can escape/state your views. But at work? I think, very innapropriate, unless you work at a church, or whatever. :)

[DrummerDeanna]

Perhaps atheism and agnosticim do offend religious people. However, the choice to respectfully tolerate religion and non-religion should be "okay" for everyone, I would think.


I honesty can't believe that you're asking that question, but here's one.

The same magazine that was presented to me had an "advice" column written by none other than Blair herself- Lisa Whelchel. The column is called "Mom Time"- here's an excerpt:

"Dear Lisa,

My 16 year old son's more interested in the arts than in athletics, seems to have no interes in girls, and doesn't have many male friends at school or church. With all the puclicity about homosexuality today, we can't help but worry our son could be gay. What should we do?

You just described my husband, Steve, as a 16 year old. He was first chair in band, never dated, and spent more time working and studying than hanging out with the guys. Today we have a healthy 16 year marriage and three wonderful children. So just because your son doesn't resemble the sterotypical high school boy doesn't mean he's gay.

Two common threads exist among those who struggle with homosexual tendencies. First, does your son exhibit any signs of childhood molestation or incest? If you suspect this is the case, seek help from a local christion counselor.

Then look at the father/son (and for girls, the mother/daughter) relationship. Does you son feel accepted by his father? Is your husband a jock who rejects or even ridicules your son's interest in the arts? Perhaps your son's father isn't even in the picture, either by divorce, absence, death or passivity.

The father holds the key to affirming a boy's manhood. Without that blessing, a gaping hole is left in a young man's life. Fortunately, a healing substitute often can be found in a strong father figure. If not, some young men attempt to "cannibalize" other men through homosexual actions to fill that void.

I know from personal friendships it's possible for someone who struggles with homosexual temptation or who has embraced that lifestyle to find freedom and strength to change. The answer is first found in receiveng redemption through jesus christ. From there I recommend logging onto www.exodus-international.org or www.lovewonout.com for further information and direction."

That's offensive. Highly offensive. And to say that Blair Warner's claptrap from some magazine has nothing to do with religion is naive at best. Religion is the sum of its parts.

I could go on all day citing examples of how religion is offensive. However, I don't think in this day and age that people out there cannot grasp such a simple statement. If the religions would stop trying to convert everyone else to their faith, then it would no longer be offensive.


:rolleyes: Well ****. that would be offensive to any sensible person religious or not....

That's not MY religion however...I mean what I personally believe by that...

So I see where things like that are offensive...I STILL don't think religion as itself - or the mere mention of the name Jesus is in, itself offensive :shrug:

Case in point...there's a building in El Paso, Texas that says in Giant red letters, "JESUS" that's it. No ads no nothing...is THAT offensive? If so why?

It's just a name :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

I don't see how anyone can be offended by anything either, but we're all different. I don't care if you wanna worship a bottle of ketchup, whatever. There are ALWAYS going to be people who will actively try to convert others and those who just live the life.

God knows what's going on in the world regarding all the lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, molestation, etc. in the organized religions and He will deal with that. He gave us choices and we have to live with the consequences of our actions.

I've come to the conclusion that I am not going to put my trust in humans, but God, because mankind has let me down too much. :(

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't see how anyone can be offended by anything either, but we're all different. I don't care if you wanna worship a bottle of ketchup, whatever. There are ALWAYS going to be people who will actively try to convert others and those who just live the life.

God knows what's going on in the world regarding all the lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, molestation, etc. in the organized religions and He will deal with that. He gave us choices and we have to live with the consequences of our actions.

I've come to the conclusion that I am not going to put my trust in humans, but God, because mankind has let me down too much. :(


Good way to look at it Christy...I guess I just wanted some insight from someone who is so offended by religion....Because I honestly don't get it at times...:shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

There is TONS of stuff I could be offended by in this world. TONS. But, I'm not, because I have faith it will all get dealt with when this world is over. There is so much garbage out there and horrific things going on that I don't even wanna know about. :(

Faith is a powerful thing. :cool:

[The Tower]

Was it that you were scared if you said you believed differently than the COO you would be fired?
No, they are smart enough to know that they can't get away with that kind of **** without getting sued.

Or was the problem that he was on the mag. in the first place? I mean you said all he asked was if you and other workers had seen the magazine.
Presenting and lauding a religion that considers me an abomination within the workplace is offensive enough in and of itself. It's unprofessional.

That to me is not shoving it down your throat.
To me it is. If I had responded to it by showing him me on the cover of Out magazine dancing on a pride parade float, I'm sure that would have been a similar shove. How many times have I heard from people (some of whom aren't even religious) "why do the gays always have to shove their lifestyle down our throats"? It's not a tit-for-tat, just an example.

All you had to say was no you had not, congrats., etc. He did not appear to me to be saying joing me or see ya :shrug: - though you certainly could have felt that way though I do not know how your company runs other than the little bit you have mentioned.
All I had to do was get to the business at hand of purpose of the meeting. Inserting religion into the conversation is not cool.

It also is not like he was on the cover of Klan weekly :eek: (a little humor here :cool: )
Same difference to me.

Note - I am not attacking you or anything like that. I am just curious :wavey:
Honey, I never think you're attacking me. :xoxo:

[amber]

Good way to look at it Christy...I guess I just wanted some insight from someone who is so offended by religion....Because I honestly don't get it at times...:shrug:
It's just annoying when people talk about God, and you don't believe in God, yet you have to hear what you consider BS, and people make up that God does things, and helps people, and whatever.
It's like, imagine you were talking to a crazy person, who was thanking a Sandwich, and telling you how much the Sandwich helped him or her in their life, and how the Sandwich is all knowing, and the Sandwich is everyone's hope for a happy life and afterlife. You'd probably think - "omigod, this person thinks a Sandwich controls the universe, and that a sandwich can help them!" - Right?

Well, to people who don't believe in God, when you talk about God, you may as well be talking about a Sandwich, because it's about as plausible of a concept to us as God is.

*note - I, personally, am not usually very offended when people talk about god in casual conversations.*

[DrummerDeanna]

It's just annoying when people talk about God, and you don't believe in God, yet you have to hear what you consider BS, and people make up that God does things, and helps people, and whatever.
It's like, imagine you were talking to a crazy person, who was thanking a Sandwich, and telling you how much the Sandwich helped him or her in their life, and how the Sandwich is all knowing, and the Sandwich is everyone's hope for a happy life and afterlife. You'd probably think - "omigod, this person thinks a Sandwich controls the universe, and that a sandwich can help them!" - Right?

Well, to people who don't believe in God, when you talk about God, you may as well be talking about a Sandwich, because it's about as plausible of a concept to us as God is.

*note - I, personally, am not usually very offended when people talk about god in casual conversations.*

Well annoying and offensive are two different things thought :shrug:

And I wouldn't be either by someone talking about a Sandwich saviour lol...but I see your point nonetheless....still though - I mean if you hear it in passing - or see it on a billboard - why care? There are other secular billboards too - you know?

I think I'm failing miserably at voicing what I'm trying to voice and asking what I'm trying to ask - it sounds good in my head - but I'm not getting at the answers to my questions lol....whatever though - I just maintain the "to each their own" thing - and that works well for me....

[The Tower]

It's like, imagine you were talking to a crazy person, who was thanking a Sandwich, and telling you how much the Sandwich helped him or her in their life, and how the Sandwich is all knowing, and the Sandwich is everyone's hope for a happy life and afterlife. You'd probably think - "omigod, this person thinks a Sandwich controls the universe, and that a sandwich can help them!" - Right?
And then it leads to... the Sandwich told the Potato Salad that it's not cool for two guys to get it on. And then the Potato Salad spread all over plate and spread the word of the Earl of Sandwich.

Next thing you know, Lord and Lady Douchebag are voting at the polls to amend their constitution to prohibit same sex marriage.

*note - I, personally, am not usually very offended when people talk about god in casual conversations.*
I am. Not necessary offended like if someone farted in my face or something, but offended because it's so pervasive and accepted and that no one has a clue what they are sponsoring when they declare their religiousity to the world sometimes.

Frustrated is a better word.

[amber]

Well annoying and offensive are two different things thought :shrug:

And I wouldn't be either by someone talking about a Sandwich saviour lol...but I see your point nonetheless....still though - I mean if you hear it in passing - or see it on a billboard - why care? There are other secular billboards too - you know?

I think I'm failing miserably at voicing what I'm trying to voice and asking what I'm trying to ask - it sounds good in my head - but I'm not getting at the answers to my questions lol....whatever though - I just maintain the "to each their own" thing - and that works well for me....
right, I don't mind much. But then, imagine that most of the continent you lived on believed that a big Sandwich controlled everything? Imagine people voting for president based on whether he wanted to bring the word of the Big Sandwich into your life. Imagine if the president himself believed strongly in the Sandwich, and started doing things in the name of said Sandwich. And all this time, you do NOT believe that the sandwich has control over your life, the universe, or anything else.
okay, I know that probably didn't answer your question either, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. :wavey:

[amber]

I am. Not necessary offended like if someone farted in my face or something, but offended because it's so pervasive and accepted and that no one has a clue what they are sponsoring when they declare their religiousity to the world sometimes.

Frustrated is a better word.
Yeah. I don't go around saying "thank Atheism! My cold got better!" or anything.
I used to be more offended, but I'm trying to be nicer and more accepting. :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

I am. Not necessary offended like if someone farted in my face or something, but offended because it's so pervasive and accepted and that no one has a clue what they are sponsoring when they declare their religiousity to the world sometimes.

Frustrated is a better word.But they aren't necessarily professing their association with an organized religion if they just want to discuss the concept of a higher power or something or that nature. Not all people of faith are sponsors of corrupt institutions. :shrug: But that goes without saying.

I do agree with you about the magazine, though. I don't think it was appropriate, and a friend (rahther than a co-worker) might actually say something like "I know this magazine offends you in general because it may have some anti-gay sentiments in it, but there was just something else in it that I wanted to show you." Of course, a friend might also elect to just not show it to you for that reason.

[strandinthewind]

I have to agrew with Tower here because the innocuous examples of mere mentions of reliligion are few and far between. For example, I recently say a billboard that said "One Nation Under God - United We Stand" - I immediately knew some whacked out right wing organization put this up there as a screw you to anyone that takes offense at the Fed. Govt. trying to establish their religion as THE religion of the U.S. Sure enough, I checked with a friend and I was correct. So, my conclusion based on this and a million other examples is very, very few Christian organizations do anything that is not named at trying to convert people and they really do not take no for an answer very graciously.

[The Tower]

But they aren't necessarily professing their association with an organized religion if they just want to discuss the concept of a higher power or something or that nature. Not all people of faith are sponsors of corrupt institutions. :shrug: But that goes without saying.
No one really knows, do they?

I have to watch what I say and who I say it to at my job because I don't know who is a "pod person" and who isn't. A lot of people at my job were hired specially because they are a member of the owner's church.

One person's "let's talk about a higher power" can slide to "divorced women are whores who abandoned their husbands and their god" pretty quickly. Believe me, I have seen it!

[amber]

No one really knows, do they?

I have to watch what I say and who I say it to at my job because I don't know who is a "pod person" and who isn't. A lot of people at my job were hired specially because they are a member of the owner's church.

One person's "let's talk about a higher power" can slide to "divorced women are whores who abandoned their husbands and their god" pretty quickly. Believe me, I have seen it!
:lol: :lol:
so, so true.

[DrummerDeanna]

No one really knows, do they?

I have to watch what I say and who I say it to at my job because I don't know who is a "pod person" and who isn't. A lot of people at my job were hired specially because they are a member of the owner's church.

One person's "let's talk about a higher power" can slide to "divorced women are whores who abandoned their husbands and their god" pretty quickly. Believe me, I have seen it!


Okay - I'm not a pod person thank you very much.

See? You complain about religious people stereotyping gays and saying that they're abominations - aren't you doing the exact same thing to religious people?

I follow a religion - I don't consider gays an abomination and I am overall a well-adjusted and open-minded person - I try to respect all views....

I am secure enough in my views that I don't take offense when someone tries to encroach on them - I just stand firm and know that what I stand for/believe is good for me.

WHy this need or whatever to insult and denegrate? Isn't that what you dislike about religion inthe first plac e- but you're turning right around and doing the same thing...two wrongs don't make a right :shrug:

----

And when someone says "Thank God...yada yada yada" I don't even think that has religious meaning anymore....which I stated earlier in this thread...

The word god has almost lost meaning - it's SO used by religious and non religious folks..a good example is the "thank god" others: "god dammit" "oh god" accompanied with a :rolleyes:

[amber]

um, wasn't he just saying the people at his work were pod people? :confused:

[DrummerDeanna]

um, wasn't he just saying the people at his work were pod people? :confused:


I don't know - I thought he was referring to all religious folks as pod people...:laugh: whatever - the fact remains....I'm not a pod person :laugh:

[amber]

I don't know - I thought he was referring to all religious folks as pod people...:laugh: whatever - the fact remains....I'm not a pod person :laugh:
exactly, but I actually think he was just talking about the people at work, and not you. At least in that post.

[DrummerDeanna]

exactly, but I actually think he was just talking about the people at work, and not you. At least in that post.


Well I knew it wasn't directed at me per se....but again Ijust thought it was a blanket statement for people who follow a religion :p ...whatever though...I myself don't even like the pod people types soo...:shrug:

[The Tower]

Okay - I'm not a pod person thank you very much.
um, wasn't he just saying the people at his work were pod people? :confused:
Yep.
See? You complain about religious people stereotyping gays and saying that they're abominations - aren't you doing the exact same thing to religious people?
I'm not stereotyping at all. My use of the term "pod people" refers to the people at my job who are all members of the same church (cult, in my opinion), who are "nicey, nicey" on the outside but have deeply conservative, judgemental opinions inside. It's been proven by their actions.
I follow a religion - I don't consider gays an abomination and I am overall a well-adjusted and open-minded person - I try to respect all views....
Does your religion feel the same way you do?

I am secure enough in my views that I don't take offense when someone tries to encroach on them - I just stand firm and know that what I stand for/believe is good for me.
I have no problems whatsoever with standing firm with regard to what I believe. I'm concerned about my civil rights being infringed and, frankly, religious views giving the okay for people to physically kick the **** out of me.

WHy this need or whatever to insult and denegrate? Isn't that what you dislike about religion inthe first plac e- but you're turning right around and doing the same thing...two wrongs don't make a right :shrug:
I don't recall insulting anyone.

[DrummerDeanna]

I don't recall insulting anyone.

I think I was referring to the pod people thing when I didn't realize you were speaking about specific people you know...

And my church overwhelmingly feels the way I do..my church - not the whole religion....it's a "it's okay to be gay as long as you don't act on it" which I admit is a horrible thing...but I think as long as there are people like me and my friends fighting to change things then one day we can....the church I go to isn't even acknowledged or considered by the Vatican...so whatever to the Vatican...but overall the place I go is open to women, homosexuals...well just everyone...what a concept...huh?

Well anyway - the nicey nicey people you speak of - I know the type well...my family got burned by people in our church when I was younger and my parents divorced...so I am now very picky about where I celebrate mass - if I can't find a church that fits with my views and open - ness - I don't go to church....

Ok I'm rambling...

[Highway Woman]

I could go on all day citing examples of how religion is offensive.

How are you defining "religion" here?

[The Tower]

How are you defining "religion" here?
re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.

1 a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

1 b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[Highway Woman]

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.

1 a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

1 b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Interesting. I assumed you were applying it more narrowly.

Look at your own definition, then, and see how broadly your generic statement is being applied. Look at Number 4, for instance. This could be applied to principles you follow as well. Or are you conscientiously devoted to nothing?

[The Tower]

This could be applied to principles you follow as well. Or are you conscientiously devoted to nothing?
I am not an activist for any particular cause or principle. I prefer to be unmolested and, hopefully, be given the same respect that I give to others.

My tax dollars support the ability for the government to take care of things and I vote for the elected officials that I hope will use those tax dollars wisely.

[wondergirl9847]

I prefer to be unmolested

Me too. :shocked:

:lol:

[Serrart]

Ok. I don't really agree but we'll leave it at that.

Sure. :)

Romy

[Serrart]

It's just annoying when people talk about God, and you don't believe in God, yet you have to hear what you consider BS, and people make up that God does things, and helps people, and whatever.
It's like, imagine you were talking to a crazy person, who was thanking a Sandwich, and telling you how much the Sandwich helped him or her in their life, and how the Sandwich is all knowing, and the Sandwich is everyone's hope for a happy life and afterlife. You'd probably think - "omigod, this person thinks a Sandwich controls the universe, and that a sandwich can help them!" - Right?

Well, to people who don't believe in God, when you talk about God, you may as well be talking about a Sandwich, because it's about as plausible of a concept to us as God is.

*note - I, personally, am not usually very offended when people talk about god in casual conversations.*

I just see it as a philosophy, so to hear people talking about it doesn't offend me particularly even if domestic fanatism can be indeed annoying :rolleyes: . Moreover there are a couple of books by Christian writers, 'the Confessions' by Saint Augustine and 'A Grief Observed' by C.S Lewis that deeply influenced me.

Romy

[The Tower]

Me too. :shocked:

:lol:
As in "left alone", ya goober!!!

[amber]

I just see it as a philosophy, so to hear people talking about it doesn't offend me particularly even if domestic fanatism can be indeed annoying :rolleyes: . Moreover there are a couple of books by Christian writers, 'the Confessions' by Saint Augustine and 'A Grief Observed' by C.S Lewis that deeply influenced me.

Romy
Yes, I see it as somewhat of a philosophy, too, ie, it's an abstract web of thought. But most religious people see it differently, because they believe in it, it's not academic to them.
I would never not read a good writer b/c he is Christian. I've liked what I've read of CS Lewis, perhaps I will check out "A Grief Observed". :)

[wondergirl9847]

As in "left alone", ya goober!!!

I know it! LOL I think the paint fumes did something to me today...I'm loopy.

[strandinthewind]

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.

1 a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

1 b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Don't you pull the dic. into this - In fact, I thoink you should pull it out :eek: :wavey: :cool:

[Moony]

I wish someone would let me get my face out of this pillow.

[Moony]

I am Jesus, I'll do what I want!

Do you like my beard?

[Moony]

It's time to break out the whip!

You're name is Toby!

[Moony]

How about I force feed you these prunes?

[Moony]

absolutely not! I shall not touch your digusting Aussie-saliva! Oi oi oi oi!

[Moony]

Prometto che ho un grande membro!

je mange les vaches crues pour le dîner et votre orteil pour le dessert!

¡pozo usted es un trazador de lÃ*neas delantero... hey y eso es bueno!

dio, so. Ho gradito il suo migliore quando era una crepa-persona dedita alcholic. Entra in un poco naufragio dell'automobile e tutto l'improvviso è mancanza piccola perfetta e tutta la ama.

[GateandGarden]

Of all the threads to resurrect, why this one?

[DrummerDeanna]

Of all the threads to resurrect, why this one?


An excellent question - I'm so confused :shrug:

[sodascouts]

An excellent question - I'm so confused :shrug:

Why? Are you confused because you are seeking to determine an intelligent, meaningful contribution to the thread from Lux's and Moony's posts here? Don't waste your brain cells on that. Do like everybody else - roll your eyes and move on.

[DrummerDeanna]

Why? Are you confused because you are seeking to determine an intelligent, meaningful contribution to the thread from Lux's and Moony's posts here? Don't waste your brain cells on that. Do like everybody else - roll your eyes and move on.

:lol: No no - I am confused soley on why this thread was re-hashed for the incoherrent ramblings :shrug:

But I will take your advice, Nancy.....plus I can't stand to lose anymore brain cells :p


:rolleyes:

ANd now I'm moving on :)

[GateandGarden]

:lol: No no - I am confused soley on why this thread was re-hashed for the incoherrent ramblings :shrug:Ditto. I guess the goal was to take a thread that might have been meaningful before and fill it with some incoherent ramblings. :shrug: Oh wait--now I'm trying to make sense of it and that was a mistake on my part.

[The Tower]

^-------------- LOVE THAT SIG!!! ...... not :laugh: She looks like Miss Piggy in that first pic.

[GateandGarden]

^-------------- LOVE THAT SIG!!! ...... not :laugh: She looks like Miss Piggy in that first pic.So glad you love it. I'm going to ignore everything you said after the first sentence. :laugh:

[Moony]

Why? Are you confused because you are seeking to determine an intelligent, meaningful contribution to the thread from Lux's and Moony's posts here? Don't waste your brain cells on that. Do like everybody else - roll your eyes and move on.
Oh, Nancy, I'm so sorry we can't all be perfect, patronizing Christians like you, who only post meaningful posts on a fan-board.

[David]

Okay, what religion or belief do you follow?I seek a balanced cosmos, the harmony of the Tao. However, I also worship the Babylonian sun god, Marduk, & adhere to the revenge code of Hammurabi: "An eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth."

Therefore, I call myself an animistic, divine Ishtarite with Taoist leanings.

[amber]

I seek a balanced cosmos, the harmony of the Tao. However, I also worship the Babylonian sun god, Marduk, & adhere to the revenge code of Hammurabi: "An eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth."

Therefore, I call myself an animistic, divine Ishtarite with Taoist leanings.
NO.WAY! Me, too!

[GateandGarden]

NO.WAY! Me, too!I thought you were against capital punishment, though? Or are you being sarcastic? Am I just not picking up on everyone's sarcasm today? Why do I keep asking questions? Why are they turning rhetorical? :confused:

[ontheEdgeof17]

For me.

I'm not religious. I have beliefs. I believe in a higher power that judges no one based on appearance, differences, and activity. So...I guess that makes me a Nonjudgementalist. :shrug: :lol: I have free reign over my life and all is well if I don't overstep my boundaries and hurt/ruin someone else's life. That, I believe, is wrong. Other than that....it's my life....

[amber]

I thought you were against capital punishment, though? Or are you being sarcastic? Am I just not picking up on everyone's sarcasm today? Why do I keep asking questions? Why are they turning rhetorical? :confused:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
that was funny. I was kind of making a joke, but in a way, not making a joke. And, yes, I'm barely against capital punishment. It's my most conservative thing in a vastly liberal panopoly of beliefs. Also, though, I think immigration should be more limited.
ha, funny, dear. :D
I am a bit animistic, toaist, and eye for an eye ish. sun god? sure. And who doesn't love Marduk????
I don't really worship a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago, though i might as well.... :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
that was funny. I was kind of making a joke, but in a way, not making a joke. And, yes, I'm barely against capital punishment. It's my most conservative thing in a vastly liberal panopoly of beliefs. Also, though, I think immigration should be more limited.
ha, funny, dear. :D
I am a bit animistic, toaist, and eye for an eye ish. sun god? sure. And who doesn't love Markuk????
I don't really worship a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago, though i might as well.... :laugh:Okay, thanks for clarifying. And I'm glad that I can give people laughs (at my expense, of course). :laugh: But then I'm laughing at my expense, too. :nod: I think. I don't know. I had a huge margarita. :shocked:

[amber]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. And I'm glad that I can give people laughs (at my expense, of course). :laugh: But then I'm laughing at my expense, too. :nod: I think. I don't know. I had a huge margarita. :shocked:
mmmm, Margi Rita. I'm having a beer. No prob, I'm glad you were funny. :)

[amber]

I wonder how many Michael Palins it would take to fill Nepal.
well, that's the age old question isn't it? If we had the answer to that, the world's problems would be solved. Or at least begin to be solved. I'm not sure it's something that can be answered in my lifetime, though.

[Moony]

Please, do not call me Arthur.
Yo, Arthur! What the dealio?!

[tommer]

i'm an atheist jew, and i never practiced any religion in any way (excluding briss, which wasn't exactly something i could control).
i believe that religion is something similar to nuclear power; yes, it produces cheap and clean energy, but on the other hand it holds destructive powers that are much much mightier.
if the question is whether i'd rather wake up to a world free of religion tomorrow morning, my answer would certainly be "yes".