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strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 11:55 AM
Ten Commandments before high court
Explosive church-state issues from Kentucky, Texas
By Bill Mears
CNN Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The issue of whether the Ten Commandments can be displayed on government property goes before the Supreme Court Wednesday, in a pair of potentially landmark cases that test religion's cultural and legal status in American society.

The justices will consider whether displaying the commandments represents state endorsement of religion, or simply recognizes and reflects the role that code has played in U.S. moral and legal traditions.

The Decalogue, as it is also known, forms a pillar of belief in Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

"These are cases courts like the least; they stir raw emotions," said Charles Haynes, a religious liberty expert at the First Amendment Center. "Whatever they decide will be misunderstood; I don't think any side will be happy with the result. Even the winning side loses because of the deep divisions that will result."

Two cases will be heard, one from Texas, the other from Kentucky. Federal and state courts have been at odds for years over the issue, which gives the high court an opportunity to issue a definitive ruling.

In the Kentucky case, two county executives separately posted copies of the King James version of the Ten Commandments on the walls of their courthouses.

They were displayed among 11 frames of privately donated historical documents and symbols that helped form the basis of American law and government, including the Declaration of Independence. All but the Ten Commandments were secular in nature.

The American Civil Liberties Union objected and won at the federal appeals level. The counties then asked the Supreme Court to intervene.

In Texas, Thomas Van Orden, a self-described "religious pluralist," filed suit against the placement, with private funds, of a 6-foot-tall monument on the grounds of Austin's Capitol Building in 1961. It bears the words "Ten Commandments," a star of David, a symbol representing Christ and the words "I am the Lord thy God."

Van Orden says that, in allowing the monument, Texas crossed the line separating church and state by promoting "personal religious beliefs."

In a brief, he contends many religions reject the idea of a single God who lays down rules for human behavior.

"Even among religions that accept the Ten Commandments, there are significant differences in content of each religion's version of the Ten Commandments, said Van Orden. "The Texas Ten Commandments is virtually identical to the Protestant version."

He lost in a federal appeals court and petitioned to the Supreme Court. Opposing him is Texas governor Rick Perry.

The Bush administration and 26 state attorneys general filed a brief with the court supporting the Texas and Kentucky displays. No states publicly oppose it.

"The First Amendment was never intended to remove all religious expression from the public square," Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said. "There is no doubt the Ten Commandments are a sacred religious text, but neither can we deny their significant impact on the history, culture and laws of Texas and the rest of the country."

CNN poll: Most questioned show support
Last week, a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll found 76 percent of those questioned said they support the Ten Commandments being displayed at the Texas Capitol.

Twenty-one percent of those surveyed said they were opposed. The poll had a margin of error of plus-or-minus 4.5 percentage points.

Within U.S. religious groups, however, there is little consensus.

Few Christian organizations have spoken out. The National Council of Churches said differences within its membership kept the group from taking a position. The Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention have been largely silent.

Orthodox Jewish groups filed a brief with the court supporting the displays in principle. But Reform branch leaders, along with the Anti-Defamation League, oppose it.

Muslim leaders in the United States have issued no statements on the issue.

But public interest groups have weighed in.

"Thou shalt not merge religion and government," said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "Promoting religion is the job of houses of worship, not government. Our legal system especially must avoid even the appearance of bias on the basis of religion."

The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting the Establishment of Religion." The Supreme Court has long interpreted that to mean government actions must have a secular purpose.

The court has tread carefully on the issue. It ruled in 1980 that the Ten Commandments could not be posted in public school classrooms.

And in October, the justices refused to accept an appeal from former Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore. He was removed from office in November 2003 after refusing a federal judge's order to remove a 2.6-ton granite monument bearing the Ten Commandments from the state court building.

The pervasiveness of the Ten Commandments is evident in the Supreme Court building itself. Inside the courtroom is a series of marble friezes that include not only Confucius, Mohammed and secular figures associated with law, but Moses holding the tablets, without text. The justices can see them from the bench simply by looking up.

The cases being argued are Van Orden v. Perry (03-1500) and McCreary County, KY et al. v. ACLU (03-1693). Rulings are expected by the end of June.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/01/scotus.ten.commandments/index.html

strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 12:02 PM
I predict the Court will decide it is okay to have the TC in a display of other historical things that help make the law. I think they will decide a display of the TC alone violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

I also think this is a case where both sides behave poorly. I think saying the TC should be excluded from even a display of all historical references a la the frieze in the Court is not realistic and in many ways wrong. The TC are not being asserted in that case for their religious value - yet the far left goes crazy at this distinction. Conversely, nutcases like Judge Moore in AL make the intent of the posting religious, not historical, because they say "this is the law" or some other inaccurate nonsense in an effort to establish Christianity as the official religion of the U.S., which clearly violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment. and to give the finger to any "bad American" who disagrees with them. So, we shall see what happens.

strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 03:15 PM
Supreme Court weighs Ten Commandments cases
Justices appear reluctant to adopt blanket ban



WASHINGTON (AP) -- Ten Commandments displays should be allowed on government property because they pay tribute to America's religious and legal history, the Supreme Court was told Wednesday, in cases that could render a new definition of the role that religion plays in the life of the nation.

"The idea of having a fence around the Ten Commandments to make clear the state has nothing to do with it, I think that is bending it too far," said acting Solicitor General Paul Clement, in arguing against a strict First Amendment wall between church and state.

David Friedman, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union who is challenging courthouse displays in Kentucky countered: "An assertion that the Ten Commandments is THE source, THE foundation of our legal system ... that is simply wrapping the Ten Commandments in the flag, and that's endorsement."

In their comments and questions from the bench, justices were reluctant to adopt a blanket ban on such displays. They struggled to formulate a clear constitutional rule that could determine the fate of thousands of religious symbols on public property around the country, including one in their own courtroom featuring Moses holding the sacred tablets.

Justice Antonin Scalia noted that legislative proclamations and prayer invoking God's name are permissible. "I don't see why the one is good and the other is bad," he said.

In the high court's first confrontation with the Ten Commandments issue in a quarter-century, a case from Texas also was being argued.

Erwin Chemerinsky, a lawyer representing a man who seeks its removal, told the justices the display is a "religious symbol." The prominence of the display on the capitol grounds and the fact that so many of the commandments deal with God "does promote religion," he maintained.

Monuments carrying the Ten Commandments are common in town squares, courthouses and other government-owned land around the country. Lawyers challenging these displays argue that they violate the First Amendment ban on any law "respecting an establishment of religion," or simply represent a secular tribute to America's legal heritage.

The question has sparked dozens of heated legal battles, including one in Alabama by Roy Moore. He lost his job as chief justice a year ago after defying a federal order to remove a 5,300-pound Ten Commandments monument he had installed in the state courthouse.

More than 50 groups have filed "friend-of-the-court" briefs weighing in on the issue.

About two dozen demonstrators gathered in front of the Supreme Court in the icy cold for rallies following a candlelight vigil by supporters of the displays.

"I don't think government should be in the business of morality," said David Condo, 40, of Beltsville, Maryland, as protesters wrapped in parkas, scarves and ear muffs marched nearby.

While the cases strictly involve Ten Commandments displays, a broad ruling could define the proper place of religion in public life -- from use of religious music in a school concert to students' recitation of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. A decision is expected by late June.

The Bush administration, which sided with a California school district last year to keep "God" in the Pledge, is now joining Texas and Kentucky officials to back the Ten Commandments displays.

"Countless monuments, medallions, plaques, sculptures, seals, frescoes, and friezes -- including, of course, the Supreme Court's own courtroom frieze -- commemorate the Decalogue. Nothing in the Constitution requires these historic artifacts to be chiseled away or erased," writes Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott in his court filing.

Chemerinsky, representing a homeless man suing to have the Texas display removed, countered in his filing: "The government's symbolic endorsement of religion is most obvious from the content of the monument itself. In large letters, the monument proclaims 'I AM the LORD thy God."'

The last time the Supreme Court weighed in on the issue was when it struck down a Kentucky law requiring Ten Commandments displays in public classrooms. Since then, more than two dozen courts have ruled in conflicting ways on displays in various public contexts.

The Supreme Court frieze, for instance, depicts Moses and the tablets as well as 17 other figures including Hammurabi, Confucius, Napoleon and Chief Justice John Marshall. Because it includes secular figures in a way that doesn't endorse religion, the display would be constitutional, Justice John Paul Stevens suggested in a 1989 ruling.

The cases are Van Orden v. Perry, 03-1500, and McCreary County v. ACLU, 03-1693.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/02/scotus.ten.commandments.ap/index.html

amber
03-02-2005, 03:18 PM
This is gonna suck, either way.

strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 03:24 PM
This is gonna suck, either way.

ITA - and IMO the far religious right has made it so. For decades, they have been placing as many momuments as they can and now they are arguing, well they are already there, etc. I think it is safe to say that given the Court's history on these types of cases, it will hold that as long as the purpose is not to establish religion, it is okay a la the frieze in the Court which cites the TC as one of many foundations for the law.

David
03-02-2005, 03:37 PM
I saw this header & I thought the magistrates took a break in the middle of a trial to watch a little De Mille.

The Tower
03-02-2005, 03:38 PM
Justice Antonin Scalia noted that legislative proclamations and prayer invoking God's name are permissible. "I don't see why the one is good and the other is bad," he said.
Scalia is such a smug, smarmy mother****er. He knows that both government sanction of the 10 commandments and the invocation of "god's" name in government proceedings are both constitutionally "wrong".

I hate him.

wondergirl9847
03-02-2005, 03:51 PM
Who puts the monuments there? :confused:

strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 03:56 PM
Who puts the monuments there? :confused:

It depends. Many plaques in schools, courthouses and such were "donated" by a very far right religious group for the express purpose of establishing Christianity (the fundamentalist version mind you) as the one religion of America.

Then, you had people like ex Judge Moore in Alabama who used public funds to pay for the several ton granite monument of the TC that he declared "the law."

I think all of this boils down to the fundamentalist Christians seeing their world being taken away and people exercising freedom of choice and it scares them - they are losing control which equals losing money. So, they swarm like wasps to protect the nest. I mean every "victory" for them is met with a "we have triumphed over those who would deny God" or some other inaccurate statement. These people feel that the govt. MUST validate their religion by declaring it so. They cannot be happy practicing it on their own. I think that makes them idiots.

Edit - clarity

dissention
03-02-2005, 03:57 PM
Then, you had people like ex Judge Moore in Alabama who used piublkic funds to pay for the several ton granite monument of the TC that he declared "the law."


Christ, I read that as "pubic funds." Practice your typing, boy! :laugh:

strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 03:58 PM
Christ, I read that as "pubic funds." Practice your typing, boy! :laugh:

I HATE typing!!!!!!!! :laugh:

wondergirl9847
03-02-2005, 06:36 PM
Pubic funds. BWAH!!!!!!!

Thanks for clarifying for me, Jason. :) Public (or pubic. LOL) funds to buy granite stones, no matter WHAT it says...NO! :mad:

strandinthewind
03-02-2005, 10:16 PM
Pubic funds. BWAH!!!!!!!

Thanks for clarifying for me, Jason. :) Public (or pubic. LOL) funds to buy granite stones, no matter WHAT it says...NO! :mad:

Not only that, but former judge Moore snuck in the several ton monument in the middle of the night and put it into a newly built rotunda that he essentially built for the mostly undisclosed monument. He was a piece of work - yet the religious far right wackos have elevated him to a hero status. I seems they cannot abide anyone telling that they object to fundamentalist Christianity being the office religion of the U.S. :rolleyes:

DownOnRodeo
03-04-2005, 04:57 AM
I saw this header & I thought the magistrates took a break in the middle of a trial to watch a little De Mille.

Yes! You might even say that this is a case of life imitating art imitating life.. ;)