I KNEW IT! Gray Davis recalled for nothing!

[irishgrl]

Enron manipluated CA rolling Blackouts (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/020505A.shtml)

and now we've got the Governator and there's even a movement to amend the constitution to allow him to become the PREZ! Geez! The only good thing is that he's pro-choice (prob due to his wife's influence)

This whole thing makes me SICK, everything is subject to major manipulation and people just STAND for it! Lets all get out our flea bitten pom poms and say rah rah (blah blah) for the BushLeague eeeewwwwwwwwwww

[sparky]

Enron manipluated CA rolling Blackouts (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/020505A.shtml)

and now we've got the Governator and there's even a movement to amend the constitution to allow him to become the PREZ! Geez! The only good thing is that he's pro-choice (prob due to his wife's influence)

This whole thing makes me SICK, everything is subject to major manipulation and people just STAND for it! Lets all get out our flea bitten pom poms and say rah rah (blah blah) for the BushLeague eeeewwwwwwwwwww

This is absolutely no surprise to me. I knew it was a phony crisis when it was happening. Everyone associated with Enron should be flogged, put in the stocks, and pelted with rocks and garbage while they are paraded through the streets in flatbed trucks. That is a vile company and they have been in bed with the Bushes forever. They'll all go scot free with platinum parachutes.

[hayley]

Poor Gray. Hopefully he gets cut a little slack now.

I used to have the hots for Gray Davis. I think it's because of his resemblance to David Lynch, who I've always wanted to be my boyfriend.

[gldstwmn]

Well...yeah. This is old news, at least to me anyway. :confused:

[irishgrl]

I strongly suspected that the whole energy crisis was fake, and Gray Davis was the fall guy....there was even evidence prior to the recall election that it was all manipulated but I felt like a lone voice crying in the wilderness...and where I live its populated by conservative redneck Bush Lovers who say you are undemocratic or unAmerican if you hate Bush. It makes me sick. He wasnt a bad Governor, he was a victim of the Republican juggernaut.

[golddustdragon]

And Arnold is not doing any better, now it seems. But hell, what do you expect from an actor, and a horrible one for that matter. All he does is use his movie titles as puns, call people names and furthur drive this state into hell. And he has the audacity to suggest that the California legislature must be part time? They're the real politicians. They know what the hell they are doing. Gosh, this guy is worse than that other California puppet Reagan.

[gldstwmn]

I strongly suspected that the whole energy crisis was fake, and Gray Davis was the fall guy....there was even evidence prior to the recall election that it was all manipulated but I felt like a lone voice crying in the wilderness...and where I live its populated by conservative redneck Bush Lovers who say you are undemocratic or unAmerican if you hate Bush. It makes me sick. He wasnt a bad Governor, he was a victim of the Republican juggernaut.

Add to the fact that Arnold was meeting with Enron execs before his election and I think you can see where this is headed.

[gldstwmn]

And Arnold is not doing any better, now it seems. But hell, what do you expect from an actor, and a horrible one for that matter. All he does is use his movie titles as puns, call people names and furthur drive this state into hell. And he has the audacity to suggest that the California legislature must be part time? They're the real politicians. They know what the hell they are doing. Gosh, this guy is worse than that other California puppet Reagan.

But he's no fool. Look at some of the people he associates with and who he married. He wants to be president. No f-cking way.

[David]

Poor Gray. Hopefully he gets cut a little slack now.He probably won't. Most Californians think he really sucked.

To me, he was the epitome of the career politician. He spent his years doing favors for friends, just like all of them.

[David]

where I live its populated by conservative redneck Bush Lovers who say you are undemocratic or unAmerican if you hate Bush.Here's what really gets them. Instead of just saying "I hate Bush" to them, say "My hunch is that his I.Q. is measurably lower than mine. Do you happen to know or know anyone who does? I'd like to check it out."

[dissention]

He probably won't. Most Californians think he really sucked.

To me, he was the epitome of the career politician. He spent his years doing favors for friends, just like all of them.

:nod:

I've no sympathy for the woes of poor Gray Davis. He's just another sleazy politician who cared nothing about the people he served, it was all about what was in it for him and his ilk.

[golddustdragon]

But he's no fool. Look at some of the people he associates with and who he married. He wants to be president. No f-cking way.

Yep. Unlike that senile old fool Reagan, Arnold is a smarter puppet. However, amendments take a long time to pass. Even so, the Republicans are long term thinkers. If not Arnold, then some other foreign born puppet will be president one day.

[strandinthewind]

Enron manipluated CA rolling Blackouts (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/020505A.shtml)

and now we've got the Governator and there's even a movement to amend the constitution to allow him to become the PREZ! Geez! The only good thing is that he's pro-choice (prob due to his wife's influence)

This whole thing makes me SICK, everything is subject to major manipulation and people just STAND for it! Lets all get out our flea bitten pom poms and say rah rah (blah blah) for the BushLeague eeeewwwwwwwwwww

While this may be, it was pretty much known at the time (at least I knew it and I thought the Fed. Govt. did to, but did nothing about it) - Davis was hardly effective in anything else and generally despised by many i9ncluding his own party (though clearly not all). Plus, from what I have seen Arnold is not bad and many like him :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

But he's no fool. Look at some of the people he associates with and who he married. He wants to be president. No f-cking way.

What is so bad about him? He is WAY more moderate than what we have now and in fact is WAY more moderate than the Senate in its present state, including most D's :eek: Thus, other than the movie star thing (which is hard to overcome) - based on what he's done and opined against in CA - he seems pretty good to me, esp. when compared to Bill "hey - I am broke so I think I'll perform practice surgery on 'stray' dogs and cats in the neighborhood" Frist.

I am not saying I like Arnols, I am just saying he is not that bad :cool:

[strandinthewind]

I strongly suspected that the whole energy crisis was fake, and Gray Davis was the fall guy....there was even evidence prior to the recall election that it was all manipulated but I felt like a lone voice crying in the wilderness...and where I live its populated by conservative redneck Bush Lovers who say you are undemocratic or unAmerican if you hate Bush. It makes me sick. He wasnt a bad Governor, he was a victim of the Republican juggernaut.

There is no way the entore thing could be faked. There were too many players and too many opposing interests. Plus, what have the R's gained with Arnold? I mean Arnold hardly is representative of the R party as it stands today - a theocracy. Plus, Arnold could never give a R the state of Calif.'s electoral votes. So, I do not think your theory can be proven when put up against those facts :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

This is absolutely no surprise to me. I knew it was a phony crisis when it was happening. Everyone associated with Enron should be flogged, put in the stocks, and pelted with rocks and garbage while they are paraded through the streets in flatbed trucks. That is a vile company and they have been in bed with the Bushes forever. They'll all go scot free with platinum parachutes.

Not only the R's, but the D's as well. Let's not forget the Enron fiasco happened under Clinton's watch and he failed to catch it and it was his SEC's and DOJ's duty to do so. Enron's meteoric rise should have made eyebrows rise - but it, along with all of the other fraud, was overlooked. Plus, many D's have taken money from Enron. So, I blame all politicians for that one. Note: this does not mean I do not despise Bush more than most - I am just calling it like I see it :cool:

It always makes me cringe when people say "the economy was so much better under Clinton" - I always think well of course it was, it would have to be when two of the largest companies in the world (Enron and MCI/WC) were cooking the books and many many other huge companies went into debt trying to keep up with them. Then other huge companies were built on nothing but expectations (which is the public's fault IMO)

Thus, my rant for the evening - AND again, Bush sucks :mad:

[hayley]

He probably won't. Most Californians think he really sucked.

To me, he was the epitome of the career politician. He spent his years doing favors for friends, just like all of them.

But, David- he was CUUUUUUUUTE.

deal with it!

[irishgrl]

Yes, the economy was better under Clinton! not because Enron/MCI were cooking their books but because the general financial atmosphere was more fluid and people had more discretionary income! Not to mention the fact that the budget was balanced for perhaps the ONLY time in OUR lifetimes (or many more to come unfortunately) Stocks were rising, interest rates were rock bottom, more people could buy homes than ever before....the whole picture was just rosier and he did it IN SPITE of a Republican Congress determined to bring him down! Give the man credit, he deserves it :nod:
personally I think you are pinning the tail on the wrong donkey for failure to catch Enron, that was the fault of FERC and various other regulatory committees btw, Gray Davis was screaming blue blazes about what Enron was doing but good old Bush ignored CA because CA didnt vote him in.


on a side note, I read where Bush is again ignoring CA, even tho Ahnuld asked for emergency status based on all the mudslides/flooding etc that southern CA suffered....FEMA has already determined that there IS a state of emergency and Bush is sitting on it......why am I not surprised? :mad:

[irishgrl]

He probably won't. Most Californians think he really sucked.

To me, he was the epitome of the career politician. He spent his years doing favors for friends, just like all of them.

I LIKED him and there are a lot more who did but are hesitant to say so for fear of the vileness that has been heaped upon him WHICH btw WAS NOT HIS FAULT
I am not sure where you get your info that he "spent his years doing favors for friends," and why people sneer about him doing it when ALL Politicians do it?
Why should HE be so vilified? I thought he was a GOOD Governor, who happened to be Democrat and therefore in the way, so he had a big bullseye painted on his back.

[irishgrl]

There is no way the entore thing could be faked. There were too many players and too many opposing interests. Plus, what have the R's gained with Arnold? I mean Arnold hardly is representative of the R party as it stands today - a theocracy. Plus, Arnold could never give a R the state of Calif.'s electoral votes. So, I do not think your theory can be proven when put up against those facts :shrug:

ah, but it was. the ENTIRE thing was manipulated because California bought part of its excess energy back via third party sources (read, Enron) that artificially raised the prices. Then Enron arranged to have key power plants shut down during peak use times, which created a domino effect. PG&E was one of the single largest power suppliers in CA, (Edison Electric in Southern CA is a PG&E affiliate) and they were screaming about having to buy back their own power at vastly increased prices, and btw, as a result they filed for bankruptcy. I knew quite a few people who worked for PG&E up the Feather
River Canyon (which houses at least two if not three power plants which generate billions of megawatts of power total) who knew that the "crisis" was phony. It makes me sick.

as for your other assertion that Ahnuld could never deliver the State for the Republicans, I am afraid that many people (esp in MY neck of the woods) would follow that man anywhere! And this movement to amend the Constitution so that people like the Governator could be President should be viewed with alarm. There are a LOT of people that like the idea (God Forbid)
and their numbers are GROWING! About the ONLY thing I LIKE about him is that he is pro-choice.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, the economy was better under Clinton! not because Enron/MCI were cooking their books but because the general financial atmosphere was more fluid and people had more discretionary income! Not to mention the fact that the budget was balanced for perhaps the ONLY time in OUR lifetimes (or many more to come unfortunately) Stocks were rising, interest rates were rock bottom, more people could buy homes than ever before....the whole picture was just rosier and he did it IN SPITE of a Republican Congress determined to bring him down! Give the man credit, he deserves it :nod:

No - the fall of those two companies and the peripheral losses in other companies was the death knell for an economy built on stilts. I realize people had more money, but that was a direct result of people speculating on IPO's in companies that had never shown a profit and those same companies went belly up four or so years later to the loss of trillions over and above the trillions lost in the Enron and MCI debacles alone.

I am not saying Clinton was not a good Pres. or that his policies did not in a general way help the economy. I am just saying all of this "the econony was stellar solely thanks to Clinton and now it sucks solely thanks to W"(general paraphrase not a direct quote) is just wrong in that the facts fail to support it. Again, I just do not see how it can be argues that the economy was mostly stellar under Clinton because of the abovemetioned fraud and the blind speculation in historically profitless companies. Interestingly, the success of the economy is a classic trickle down theory - which is what the R's are always claiming they want to do, but never really do :mad: It is that because companies had this insurgence of cash from the blind speculation (esp. in the Calif. economy - which was caused by (initially) the tech bubble burst a/k/a the results of the carnage from the blind speculations by greedy investors) then hired a bunch of people (the estimates are staggering with MCI and Enron alone) , spent money like there was no end in sight (buildings, cars, ads, etc. ), and then were broke.

In the end, I think the Pres. can only do so much to stimulate the economy. I think Clinton did that. I think the results would have been a good economy. But, the hyper inflated economy of the 90's was WAY more than that and we are paying for it now.

Interestingly, if W had allowed the initial spark of the tax cuts to take effect (Greenspan confirmed this spark :shrug: ) and then spent in a truly conservative manner instead of pissing away money with things like:

1. rushing into war with Iraq and lying about how the US was going to pay for it - did anyone really believe that a$$hole when he said Iraq's oil cold pay for the liberation when the oil rev.'s IN TOTAL were only like 1/10 of the cost :rolleyes:

2. The Medicare Rx coverage fliet mingon to the drug companies - again the fed. govt. - UNLIKE EVERY PRIVATE INSURER - pays a non-negotiated lesser rate for patient's drugs :mad:

and so many more. W and his cronies spend FAR more liberally than ANY Democrat I have ever seen :mad:

[strandinthewind]

ah, but it was. the ENTIRE thing was manipulated because California bought part of its excess energy back via third party sources (read, Enron) that artificially raised the prices. Then Enron arranged to have key power plants shut down during peak use times, which created a domino effect. PG&E was one of the single largest power suppliers in CA, (Edison Electric in Southern CA is a PG&E affiliate) and they were screaming about having to buy back their own power at vastly increased prices, and btw, as a result they filed for bankruptcy. I knew quite a few people who worked for PG&E up the Feather River Canyon (which houses at least two if not three power plants which generate billions of megawatts of power total) who knew that the "crisis" was phony. It makes me sick.

Prove it with facts - and by facts I mean anything other than that articel you posted :wavey:

In the end, I agree Enron was to blame, but they did not act alone and some of those players just might be D's :eek:

[strandinthewind]

. . . as for your other assertion that Ahnuld could never deliver the State for the Republicans, I am afraid that many people (esp in MY neck of the woods) would follow that man anywhere! And this movement to amend the Constitution so that people like the Governator could be President should be viewed with alarm. There are a LOT of people that like the idea (God Forbid)
and their numbers are GROWING! About the ONLY thing I LIKE about him is that he is pro-choice.

That alone makes him persona non grata in the entire R party these days :shrug: Again, I just do not see that he has done anything that bad. If he has, let's see it :shrug:

[GypsySorcerer]

That alone makes him persona non grata in the entire R party these days :shrug: Again, I just do not see that he has done anything that bad. If he has, let's see it :shrug:

Can Ahnuld even be considered an R anymore? He's a RINO, isn't he?

[strandinthewind]

Can Ahnuld even be considered an R anymore? He's a RINO, isn't he?

What is RINO?

I am on cold meds. and a little loopy right now :laugh:

[GypsySorcerer]

What is RINO?

I am on cold meds. and a little loopy right now :laugh:

Republican in name only. :)

[strandinthewind]

Republican in name only. :)

and I think I totally knew that - but that Nyquil can be a doozy :laugh:

[irishgrl]

No - the fall of those two companies and the peripheral losses in other companies was the death knell for an economy built on stilts. I realize people had more money, but that was a direct result of people speculating on IPO's in companies that had never shown a profit and those same companies went belly up four or so years later to the loss of trillions over and above the trillions lost in the Enron and MCI debacles alone.

I didnt speculate in any IPO's, I didnt speculate in ANYTHING! You are looking at it from the standpoint of someone with quite a bit of discretionary income I think! I myself, as just an average working class joe was able to purchase a car and a home thanks to the fluidity of the economy, which BECAUSE of the balanced budget, did not translate to program cuts on the State or Local level. For the first time, programs were funded decently, and States were in a better financial shape (except for CA which was targeted by EVIL Enron because we used to be a wealthy State, with the worlds 5th largest economy)

[irishgrl]

Prove it with facts - and by facts I mean anything other than that articel you posted :wavey:

In the end, I agree Enron was to blame, but they did not act alone and some of those players just might be D's :eek:

there have been numerous articles written both before and after Gray Davis was out of office that pinpointed Enron as the culprit. CA bought back its excess energy from Enron at inflated prices. I will have to go back to archives to find it but I wonder why you are objecting to the article I posted? it is the same source used for much of the material posted here in the past. There are plenty of articles it will just take time. But, I will find them, never fear.

[strandinthewind]

I didnt speculate in any IPO's, I didnt speculate in ANYTHING! You are looking at it from the standpoint of someone with quite a bit of discretionary income I think! I myself, as just an average working class joe was able to purchase a car and a home thanks to the fluidity of the economy, which BECAUSE of the balanced budget, did not translate to program cuts on the State or Local level. For the first time, programs were funded decently, and States were in a better financial shape (except for CA which was targeted by EVIL Enron because we used to be a wealthy State, with the worlds 5th largest economy)

No, I am not.

Where do you think the money can from to balance the budget? I submit it can from where all of the govt.'s money comes from, taxes. A significant portion of those taxes, esp. in Calif. in the 90's, came from the monies generated by these companies. In Calif. alone, millions of new jobs were lost four or so years later. With the loss of those jobs came the peripheral losses such as local shops where those employees shopped, hotel closings or at least loss of rev., janitorial service companies laying off because they no longer have as many contracts, etc. - these are all pretty much lower level jobs :shrug: All of that equals to many times more jobs lost than the actual employees of the closed businesses (again the businesses saw hundreds of millions in the IPO and months thereafter and then no more rev.) - Then, these people could not find other jobs because the economy was having its uber correction to compensate for the abovementioned loss of trillions and the concurrent loss of trillions associated with Enron, MCI, and all that peripheral loss. So , I am not just talking about investors - though they also lost a bunch - and it was at all levels from the janitor at MCI with a 401K on up.

With the loss of that rev. came the loss of funding for state programs, which also caused loss of stimulus for the economy :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

there have been numerous articles written both before and after Gray Davis was out of office that pinpointed Enron as the culprit. CA bought back its excess energy from Enron at inflated prices. I will have to go back to archives to find it but I wonder why you are objecting to the article I posted? it is the same source used for much of the material posted here in the past. There are plenty of articles it will just take time. But, I will find them, never fear.

I was joking :p I thought that was apparent.

I totally think Enron screwed Calif. and did so with the WH's blessing. I just think the R's were not alone in that boat and it was not to get Davis out of office, though that may have been a fringe benefit. I think Enron did it because they thought they would not get caught :shrug:

[irishgrl]

KRON channel 4 San Francisco article (http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=1551735)
you'll see at the bottom the AP tag line

Posted: December 4, 2003 at 3:33 p.m.

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A former top executive at Enron Corp. was charged Thursday in a superseding indictment with 11 counts of conspiracy and fraud in connection with the company's manipulation of energy markets during California's power crisis.

John Forney, 41, of Ohio, is the third former Enron official to be charged with illegally manipulating California's electricity prices from the company's Portland, Ore., office. His attorney said he's innocent and will fight the charges at trial.

Two other former Enron energy traders pleaded guilty and are cooperating in the federal investigation into Enron's role in the energy debacle, which bankrupted Pacific Gas & Electric Co. and will leave California consumers paying abnormally high electricity prices for years.

Forney allegedly concocted a scheme known as "Ping Pong" designed to evade federal price caps on California energy. The scheme involved buying energy from California and later selling it back to the state at inflated prices, making it appear the energy was generated elsewhere, prosecutors said.

The indictment filed in federal court in San Francisco also alleges that Forney was responsible for "Death Star," a scheme known inside Enron as "Forney's Perpetual Loop," that attempted to generate revenue by fraudulently charging fees for services Enron did not provide.

From Forney's trading desk in Portland, Enron charged California for electricity that wasn't delivered, thus failing to alleviate backlogged transmission lines in 2000, at a time when some parts of the state suffered rolling blackouts, prosecutors said.

"They made it look like they were relieving congestion and they would just get paid for it," said federal prosecutor Matthew Jacobs.

Jacobs said Forney was charged with one count of manipulation this summer and 10 more were added Thursday. He said the government and Forney's counsel had been discussing a plea bargain, but "those negotiations concluded without resolution."

Neither Jacobs nor the indictments said how much money Houston-based Enron allegedly bilked from California energy consumers.

Forney's attorney, Robert Breakstone, said his client will enter an innocent plea on Friday. "The government has to try to prove he is guilty," Breakstone said.

Forney worked at the now-bankrupt Enron from 1993 to 2002 before being hired as an energy trader at Columbus, Ohio-based American Electric Power, before the Enron scandal broke. AEP put him on administrative leave after he was arrested in June.

Former Enron executives Timothy N. Belden and Jeffrey S. Richter have pleaded guilty and cooperated with the FBI. Belden and Richter are expected to testify against Forney at his Oct. 12 trial next year.

Forney remains free on $500,000 bail, Jacobs said.

The case is United States v. Forney, 03-0178.

(Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

==========================================================
URL is at end of article

THE ENRON COLLAPSE
Questionable Accounting Practices
Huge profits from California hidden away
Feds investigating reserves totaling as much as $1.5 billion
- David Barboza, New York Times
Sunday, June 23, 2002

Houston -- The Enron Corp. used undisclosed reserves to keep as much as $1.5 billion in trading profits off its books during the California energy crisis, according to six former managers and executives who handled or reviewed the accounts.

The enormous reserves, which would have doubled the company's reported profits, were hidden in late 2000 and early 2001, as energy prices soared in California and politicians accused trading companies like Enron of price gouging. The former Enron officials said that the company swelled the reserves in hopes of damping the political firestorm.

Further, some former executives said, Enron manipulated the reserves to help it report steady profit growth to Wall Street and credit-rating agencies. Investors generally are not willing to pay as much for the stock of a volatile trading operation as they would for companies -- like Enron before its collapse -- that report steady quarter-by-quarter growth.

The Securities and Exchange Commission and investigators from the Justice Department have interviewed witnesses to determine whether the practices violated securities laws by creating "cookie jar reserves" or a kind of corporate slush fund to doctor quarterly earnings reports, according to people who have been interviewed by investigators.

The existence of the huge reserves adds a strange twist to the Enron story. The company filed for bankruptcy protection last December amid reports that executives inflated profits and hid losses with off-balance-sheet partnerships.

But interviews with more than a dozen former executives and managers suggest that the company at times also held back trading profits to serve its political and financial ends.

The majority of these gains were "paper" profits on long-term contracts, rather than cash that could have helped Enron stave off the liquidity crisis that led to its collapse last fall. In any event, one former executive said, the reserves were depleted in the months before Enron's bankruptcy.

The use of reserves to manage profits is outlawed, but it is not uncommon. This month, the Microsoft Corp. agreed to settle an enforcement action in which the SEC charged it with maintaining huge reserves in the late 1990s that could have been used to enhance profits when the company's earnings growth began to wane.

Former top executives at Enron, including Kenneth L. Lay, the longtime chairman, and Jeffrey K. Skilling, the company's president and later chief executive, said last week through their spokeswomen that they were aware of the reserves but considered them proper.

Judy Leon, Skilling's spokeswoman, said that money was set aside mainly in credit reserves to insulate Enron from the risk that California's utilities could be bankrupted by the crisis and left unable to pay their debts. "At no time did Skilling have any knowledge of inappropriate or illegal activity in the reserve account," she said.

Accounting rules allow for credit reserves -- and, indeed, California's biggest investor-owned utility, Pacific Gas and Electric, sought bankruptcy protection in April 2001, owing Enron $500 million. And trading companies can use so-called prudency reserves to protect against market risks, like the inability to exit a trading position at a good price.

But six former Enron officials who handled or reviewed the accounts said that Enron used prudency reserves to manipulate the reported profits of its energy trading operations.

The economic value of energy trades -- particularly deals providing for the delivery of electricity long in the future -- is highly subjective. As the dominant trader, analysts say, Enron had great leeway to establish market prices. Likewise, when profits seemed bloated during the California crisis, executives said, it became common to give trades a "haircut," shifting a portion of the profits into a reserve that could later be drawn down.

One former executive recounted how Enron traders made close to $500 million on a single day in the summer of 2000, after a natural gas pipeline burst near Carlsbad, N.M., and market prices spiked.

"We made such an incredible amount of money we didn't want to recognize it all into earnings," said the executive, who like others interviewed requested anonymity because of concern about being drawn into litigation. "We were supposed to make $500 million in a quarter and we were doing it in a day."

Accounting experts said that the subjectivity of prudency reserves makes them susceptible to abuse.

"If you're using trading reserves as a mechanism for understating your positions in good times -- and therefore not reporting profits -- and later reporting the old profits in times that aren't as good, that would clearly be an abuse of the accounting rules," said Lynn Turner, a professor at Colorado State University and the former chief accountant for the SEC.

During the energy crisis, power shortages led to rolling blackouts and price spikes in California. Elected officials railed at power merchants, with Gov. Gray Davis accusing them of profiteering and market manipulation.

At the time, Enron executives denied the charges, blaming a poorly designed energy market for California's problems. And while the company reported profits of $350 million for the last three months of 2000 -- 34 percent more than a year earlier -- executives minimized the impact of the crisis on Enron's bottom line.

"Now for Enron, the situation in California had little impact on fourth- quarter results," Skilling told Wall Street analysts in a Jan. 22, 2001, conference call. "Let me repeat that. For Enron, the situation in California had little impact on fourth-quarter results." He explained that because Enron did not own power plants in California, the company did "not invite the same accusations the generators have faced regarding excessive profits."

The disclosure of internal documents last month describing ways that Enron's traders operated in California's market prompted officials to renew their demand for billions in refunds from energy companies. Told about the reserves, Davis expressed fresh outrage.

"Enron's made such a killing off this state, they were embarrassed to disclose it to their shareholders," the governor said on Friday in a statement.

"Unfortunately, Enron will live on as a symbol for everything that has gone wrong with electricity deregulation."

Several high-ranking Enron executives said that the company began using reserves to "smooth" or "manage" earnings growth as early as 1998, when energy price spikes in the Midwest brought traders unwanted scrutiny.

Enron's disclosures about its reserves were limited, and, according to former executives, incomplete. In its year-end report for 2000, it listed $452 million in "credit and other reserves." There was nothing disclosed about prudency reserves.

Enron's use of the reserves was approved by Arthur Andersen LLP, the company's longtime auditor, and by Richard A. Causey, the company's chief accounting officer. His lawyer, J.C. Nickens, said that Causey -- who left the company after its collapse -- told Enron's board that the company was using a combination of credit and prudency reserves.

Kelly Kimberly, the spokeswoman for Lay, Enron's former chairman, said that both the growth of the prudency reserves and their subsequent release into the company's profit stream were appropriate.

"It is a common practice and in fact a responsible practice to increase prudency reserves when volatility is high and when prices are rising," she said.

Patrick Dorton, a spokesman for Andersen, said the firm did not engage in any wrongdoing.

Former managers and executives said there were at least three types of reserve funds and that they totaled between $800 million and $2 billion at various times in 2000 and 2001.

During the California energy crisis, the reserves skyrocketed, former managers and executives said. Enron's traders were making more than enough to meet profit targets. And there were concerns that the big gains would not last. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/06/23/MN8189.DTL

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


yet another article by The Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/679237/posts)

note the NY Times tagline on this one:
Enron Forced Up California Energy Prices, Documents Show
New York Times | May 7, 2002 | By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and JEFF GERTH

Posted on 05/07/2002 5:52:11 AM PDT by NCDoc

WASHINGTON, May 6 Electricity traders at Enron drove up prices during the California power crisis through questionable techniques that company lawyers said "may have contributed" to severe power shortages, according to internal Enron documents released today by federal regulators.

Within Enron, the documents show, traders used strategies code-named Fat Boy, Ricochet, Get Shorty, Load Shift and Death Star to increase Enron's profits from trading power in the state techniques that added to electricity costs and congestion on transmission lines.

The documents memorandums written in December 2000 by lawyers at Enron to another lawyer at the company also describe "dummied-up" power-delivery schedules, the submission of "false information" to the state, and the effective increasing of costs to all market participants by "knowingly increasing the congestion costs."

The memos, which provide the first inside look at the complex trading strategies Enron used in California, give strong ammunition to state officials who have long argued that Enron and other power marketers manipulated the state's market and played a crucial role in the crisis that cost California consumers and utilities tens of billions of dollars in 2000 and 2001. The documents state that other power companies used similar techniques.

Tonight, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, said she would ask Attorney General John Ashcroft "to pursue a criminal investigation to determine whether in fact federal fraud statutes or any other laws were violated" by Enron's energy-trading activities. Federal prosecutors are already conducting an inquiry into Enron's accounting, which falsely increased reported profits but ultimately led to the company's filing for bankruptcy protection in December.

Enron agreed to sell its energy-trading unit earlier this year to UBS Warburg, a division of UBS, Switzerland's largest bank. Nearly all of Enron's senior executives, and most of its board members, have departed in the last nine months.

Enron's senior management learned of the documents in late April, and the company's board decided during a meeting on Sunday to waive attorney-client privilege and turn the memos over to investigators at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, a person close to the company said. The company has also informed the Justice Department, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the attorney general of California about the documents.

At a noon meeting today, lawyers for Enron gave the memos to investigators from the regulatory commission, which is examining whether Enron manipulated energy markets in the West. The agency released the documents a few hours later. Officials at the commission declined to comment, but they are continuing their investigation into Enron's effect on power prices and asked the company today to provide additional documents on its electricity and natural-gas trading activities.

In a letter sent by officials at the commission today to Enron, investigators at the agency said the documents described how Enron traders were "creating, and then `relieving,' phantom congestion" on California's electricity grid. The documents also detail what investigators described as "megawatt laundering," in which Enron bought power in California, resold the power out of the state and then bought the power back and resold it back into California allowing Enron to circumvent price caps meant to clamp down on costs.

"These documents prove that these companies can manipulate the market," said Loretta Lynch, the president of the California Public Utilities Commission. "Enron prevented California from seeing these documents for years, and now we know why."

Ms. Lynch said the documents supported her argument that FERC should leave in place temporary electricity price restraints, introduced last June, which state officials say have played a large role in reining in prices. "I don't see how FERC can remove the boundaries they put in place on our market last June."

An outside lawyer for Enron, Robert S. Bennett, said he could not comment on the trading strategies described in the documents. "Because we have sold the trading unit and the people with the knowledge of trading practices are no longer with the company, we do not know what the true facts are, and we do not know which parts of the memoranda are correct and which parts are incorrect," Mr. Bennett said tonight.

But he emphasized that the company had agreed to waive that attorney-client privilege because it was trying to cooperate with the various investigations into Enron's business practices. "These memoranda came to the attention of the board and current management in late April, and the board instructed its counsel to not assert the attorney-client privilege and produce these documents to the appropriate government entities," Mr. Bennett said.

Another memo written by a separate group of lawyers for Enron in 2001 apparently in January or February, after soaring wholesale power prices in California pushed the state's largest utilities to the brink of insolvency tried to play down the strategies described in the December 2000 memos.

In this later memo, which was written to prepare Enron for the "various investigations and litigation" it faced because of the California power crisis, the lawyers repeatedly tried to play down or cast doubt on the conclusions drawn by Enron's own lawyers in the earlier memos.

"Some of the information" in the earlier memos "which resulted in some erroneous assumptions and conclusions, cannot be supported by the facts and evidence which are now known," the later memo stated.

In one strategy described in the December 2000 memos, Enron would buy power from a state-run exchange for $250 a megawatt-hour (the maximum under the price caps) and resell it outside California for almost five times as much.

"Thus, traders could buy power at $250 and sell it for $1,200," according to one memo. In that document, the Enron lawyers acknowledged that such activity could be playing a big role in causing electricity shortages in the state, but they suggested that was not a significant concern.

"This strategy appears not to present any problems," the memo stated, "other than a public relations risk arising from the fact that such exports may have contributed to California's declaration of a Stage 2 Emergency yesterday."

The Death Star strategy, as described in the memos, allowed Enron to be paid "for moving energy to relieve congestion without actually moving any energy or relieving any congestion."

And the Load Shift strategy allowed Enron to generate about $30 million in profits in 2000 using techniques that, according to the documents, included creating "the appearance of congestion through the deliberate overstatement" of power to be delivered.

In the past, Enron officials said the California power crisis was caused by the state's deeply flawed electricity deregulation plan, the lack of new power-generation capacity and by temporary factors, like a drought that drastically reduced available hydropower. Even some economists who think price manipulation was widespread say these other factors contributed to soaring prices.

But Enron executives always insisted that absolutely nothing their traders had done contributed to the crisis. In an interview last year, Enron's former chairman, Kenneth L. Lay, dismissed accusations that manipulation was even partly to blame for California's troubles.

"Every time there's a shortage or a little bit of a price spike, it's always collusion or conspiracy or something," Mr. Lay said in the interview, which was also taped for " Frontline" on PBS. "I mean, it always makes people feel better that way."

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company


SF Chronicle article (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/06/23/MN8189.DTL)

[irishgrl]

I apologise for the original post being so mixed up, the copy/paste function started to have a mind of its own :nod: and I had to manually delete the extra bits and edit down, I think its all correct at this point. Oh I might have missed a stray ? or two....

[irishgrl]

I was joking :p I thought that was apparent.

I totally think Enron screwed Calif. and did so with the WH's blessing. I just think the R's were not alone in that boat and it was not to get Davis out of office, though that may have been a fringe benefit. I think Enron did it because they thought they would not get caught :shrug:

next time, you rascally man, please put an appropriate emoticon there so I KNOW you are joking! I didnt see your post until AFTER I found those articles and went thru HELL trying to get them in readable form! you could have saved me a WHOLE lot of work!
:laugh: :nod:

[strandinthewind]

next time, you rascally man, please put an appropriate emoticon there so I KNOW you are joking! I didnt see your post until AFTER I found those articles and went thru HELL trying to get them in readable form! you could have saved me a WHOLE lot of work!
:laugh: :nod:

I know - when I saw a minute ago the articles I was like :sorry: "never mind" :laugh: I originally meant the original request as an in addition to the one you posted, but then thought I would be smart :cool: BUT - maybe you efforts will not be in vain and educate some poor soul who thinks that Enron did nothing wrong :nod:

Interestingly, I wonder if ANYONE of any significance from Enron will EVER be prosecuted. Personally, I think they have to many politicians on both sides in their pockets. I think they ought to hang the men (and it is almost all men) by their testicals while in the hot Texas sun covered with baby oil :mad:

[irishgrl]

I know - when I saw a minute ago the articles I was like :sorry: "never mind" :laugh: I originally meant the original request as an in addition to the one you posted, but then thought I would be smart :cool: BUT - maybe you efforts will not be in vain and educate some poor soul who thinks that Enron did nothing wrong :nod:

Interestingly, I wonder if ANYONE of any significance from Enron will EVER be prosecuted. Personally, I think they have to many politicians on both sides in their pockets. I think they ought to hang the men (and it is almost all men) by their testicals while in the hot Texas sun covered with baby oil :mad:

or, bury them in the middle of a red ant colony, or drop them in a snake pit, or put them in a container filled with African bees, or drop them in a shark tank with a piece of bloody meat, or remove their netherparts with a rusty knife, or put them thru the gamut of medieval torture devices (iron maiden, rack) or rip out their toenails with pliers.......oh I cant think of any more...
oh yes, one more: return all the $$$ they STOLE from CA WITH INTEREST.
THAT should shrivel their winkies to nothingness eh?

[SuzeQuze]

Enron manipluated CA rolling Blackouts (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/020505A.shtml)

and now we've got the Governator and there's even a movement to amend the constitution to allow him to become the PREZ! Geez! The only good thing is that he's pro-choice (prob due to his wife's influence)

This whole thing makes me SICK, everything is subject to major manipulation and people just STAND for it! Lets all get out our flea bitten pom poms and say rah rah (blah blah) for the BushLeague eeeewwwwwwwwwww

This quote "Previous tapes released by the district last summer showed Enron officials joking about how they were "stealing" more than a $1 million a day from California and fleecing "Grandma Millie" while bringing Enron record profits." is what I suspect of jackasses with a lot of power and am sickened to find evidence of this kind of disgusting money grubbing and callous disregard for ordinary citizens' hard-earned money. Shame shame shame on all of you. I'm with you, Sharky, we pummel these idiots with rotten eggs and such.

Also, of course Lay would say this is just "conspiracy theory" stuff. That is how these right wingers attempt, and largely succeed to, silence liberals and provide evidence that we're the crazy ones. Most people buy into this and it's a shame. :distress: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[strandinthewind]

. . . Also, of course Lay would say this is just "conspiracy theory" stuff. That is how these right wingers attempt, and largely succeed to, silence liberals and provide evidence that we're the crazy ones. Most people buy into this and it's a shame. :distress: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Again, I respectfully suggest the D's are hardly chomping at the bit to prosecute anyone from Enron and I think that is because the D's know that they are just as culpable as the R's. Again, a significant portion of the the Enron fraud happened on the watch of the the Clinton SEC and DOJ and Enron also gave substantially to the D's :shrug: Thus, I think it is appropriate to lambaste all politicians on this one :nod:

[dissention]

Again, I respectfully suggest the D's are hardly chomping at the bit to prosecute anyone from Enron and I think that is because the D's know that they are just as culpable as the R's. Again, a significant portion of the the Enron fraud happened on the watch of the the Clinton SEC and DOJ and Enron also gave substantially to the D's :shrug: Thus, I think it is appropriate to lambaste all politicians on this one :nod:

Give the man a cookie. :woohoo:

[David]

Thus, I think it is appropriate to lambaste all politicians on this one :nod:The government I live under has been my enemy all of my active life. When it has not been engaged in silencing me, it has been engaged in robbing me. So far as I can recall I have never had any contact with it that was not an outrage on my dignity and an attack on my security.

-- Words to live by, courtesy of Mencken

[strandinthewind]

The government I live under has been my enemy all of my active life. When it has not been engaged in silencing me, it has been engaged in robbing me. So far as I can recall I have never had any contact with it that was not an outrage on my dignity and an attack on my security.

-- Words to live by, courtesy of Mencken

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Give the man a cookie. :woohoo:

Ah - detente - it sure is nice when we agree :xoxo: :xoxo:

[irishgrl]

Hear ye Hear ye~
let it be known from this day henceforth that February 7th, 2005 is officially to be hereinafter and heretofore known as DISS JASON DAY! In regocnition of the fact that these two worthies have lowered the boom--I mean--lowered their verbal weapons and did create an accord, the likes of which we may NEVER see AGAIN!

To therefore mark the occasion with the pomp and circumstance with which it is due, let us all hoist a beverage of our choice and shout in a loud ringing voice

DISS JASON DISS JASON DISS JASON

diss-claimer: this has been an equal opportunity spoof. We now return you to your regularly scheduled activities.

[strandinthewind]

He is still a communist :p

[amber]

Hear ye Hear ye~
let it be known from this day henceforth that February 7th, 2005 is officially to be hereinafter and heretofore known as DISS JASON DAY! In regocnition of the fact that these two worthies have lowered the boom--I mean--lowered their verbal weapons and did create an accord, the likes of which we may NEVER see AGAIN!

To therefore mark the occasion with the pomp and circumstance with which it is due, let us all hoist a beverage of our choice and shout in a loud ringing voice

DISS JASON DISS JASON DISS JASON

diss-claimer: this has been an equal opportunity spoof. We now return you to your regularly scheduled activities.
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol: I just raised my beer to them. :wavey:

[gldstwmn]

What is so bad about him? He is WAY more moderate than what we have now and in fact is WAY more moderate than the Senate in its present state, including most D's :eek: Thus, other than the movie star thing (which is hard to overcome) - based on what he's done and opined against in CA - he seems pretty good to me, esp. when compared to Bill "hey - I am broke so I think I'll perform practice surgery on 'stray' dogs and cats in the neighborhood" Frist.

I am not saying I like Arnols, I am just saying he is not that bad :cool:

What's wrong with him? He's a ****ing pig, that's what. His father was a Nazi. Helllooooo?

[dissention]

What's wrong with him? He's a ****ing pig, that's what. His father was a Nazi. Helllooooo?

:nod:

He sexually molested women, his pop was a Nazi, he brazenly lied about Nixon and Humphrey having a televised debate (thereby revealing he knows absolutely nothing about our political history), he lied and said that as a child he watched tanks invade the streets of Austria, I mean, c'mon. He's a pig and numbnut who knows nothing.

[strandinthewind]

What's wrong with him? He's a ****ing pig, that's what. His father was a Nazi. Helllooooo?

Well, that was his father - many people of his age had nazi fathers :shrug: I think his record in Calif. shows he is a moderate. It may very well all be subterfuge - but it is the the record of a moderate and IMO liberal as that term is defined today. I mean he is pro choice and pro gay marriage/civil union - those two alone exclude him from any national R seat by today's standards.

[strandinthewind]

:nod:

He sexually molested women, his pop was a Nazi, he brazenly lied about Nixon and Humphrey having a televised debate (thereby revealing he knows absolutely nothing about our political history), he lied and said that as a child he watched tanks invade the streets of Austria, I mean, c'mon. He's a pig and numbnut who knows nothing.

That may very well all be true (though that his father was a Nazi is unfair to hold against him as many were then :shrug: and he shows no signs of Nazism) - but he is still a moderate whose political votes have not been anything but that.

As for the molesting of women - the jury is still in the air on that one :shrug:

[amber]

Well, that was his father - many people of his age had nazi fathers :shrug: I think his record in Calif. shows he is a moderate. It may very well all be subterfuge - but it is the the record of a moderate and IMO liberal as that term is defined today. I mean he is pro choice and pro gay marriage/civil union - those two alone exclude him from any national R seat by today's standards.
he's also pro grope, though. I think he is a pig, too - I am thankful that he is pro choice, and pro gay marriage, but he's not pro education, as far as I can tell, and, well, I just wish it were someone else. :shrug: Admittedly, he is not as bad as I thought he would be, but I bet he is worse than i have found out about, thus far. I mean, if prior to the recall he was holding meetings with Enron, well...And I believe he is as savvy/slimy as all get out. I mean, he built a lucrative career on almost nothing - that is a skill i don't like in my politicians ;)

[strandinthewind]

he's also pro grope, though. I think he is a pig, too - I am thankful that he is pro choice, and pro gay marriage, but he's not pro education, as far as I can tell, and, well, I just wish it were someone else. :shrug: Admittedly, he is not as bad as I thought he would be, but I bet he is worse than i have found out about, thus far. I mean, if prior to the recall he was holding meetings with Enron, well...And I believe he is as savvy/slimy as all get out. I mean, he built a lucrative career on almost nothing - that is a skill i don't like in my politicians ;)

:laugh: well, I think almost all politicians are slime in a slimey buisiness - so there is that :laugh:

But, my point was everyone complained (and still do) that he was and is a know nothing idiot - yet his administration so far has been extremely moderate if not liberal. So, I give him credit for that as he earned it - to the apparent chagrain of the naysayers. Will he do better or worse in the future - who knows. Do not get me wrong - I am no huge fan of his, but his record since taking office is good - not stellar - but good - at least to me.

[dissention]

he's also pro grope, though.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[amber]

:laugh: well, I think almost all politicians are slime in a slimey buisiness - so there is that :laugh:

But, my point was everyone complained (and still do) that he was and is a know nothing idiot - yet his administration so far has been extremely moderate if not liberal. So, I give him credit for that as he earned it - to the apparent chagrain of the naysayers. Will he do better or worse in the future - who knows. Do not get me wrong - I am no huge fan of his, but his record since taking office is good - not stellar - but good - at least to me.
yeah, I suppose. You always say stuff like that. :laugh: In my head, I know that politicians are slimey and underhanded, but I still hate it. And just cause someone isn't "as bad as I thought they would be" still doesn't make them "good" IMO. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

Arnold's broken promises (http://www.arnoldwatch.org/articles/articles_000569.php3)

Arnold's first year gets mixed reviews (http://www.arnoldwatch.org/articles/articles_000410.php3)

and who picks up the tab for King Arnold? (http://www.arnoldwatch.org/articles/articles_000586.php3)

folks who are interested in behind the scenes info on the Governator should go
here (http://www.arnoldwatch.org)

In my mind, he robs Peter to pay Paul, he has special interests in his back pocket far deeper than Gray Davis EVER did, he balanced the budget on the backs of the poor (surprise!) and it appears he is more consumed with fund raising (why?) than he is with budget balancing! His policies are contradictory
no new taxes/but fund education etc...as I said, about the ONLY thing I can find good to say about him is that he is pro-choice.

[strandinthewind]

So, essentially, Arnold is bad because Pete Wilson lied and Arnols is allowing special interest groups to give money and he raised taxes when he said he would not. The first one is absurd. The second two are no suprise - he is a politician after all :rolleyes: But, even considering the last two, Arnold has not been a bad governor or at least he has not been the R puppet everyone thought he would be, which gets back to my point that while he may be a cad, the policies he has set have not been near as bad as what many naysayers predicted. Quite the contrary, he has been a moderate and actually very Democratic as opposed to Republican.

[strandinthewind]

yeah, I suppose. You always say stuff like that. :laugh: In my head, I know that politicians are slimey and underhanded, but I still hate it. And just cause someone isn't "as bad as I thought they would be" still doesn't make them "good" IMO. :shrug:

Well, I do not think I ever said he was doing a good job. I think I said he was not doing as bad a job as many predicted and his adminsitration has been far from the standard R regime - it has been quite liberal as that rterm is defined today. So, I give him props for that. Again, I am not saying he is a great gov. or anything like that and if anyone got the impression I was saying that in the past, let me herein state I was not :cool:

[irishgrl]

(It doesnt surprise me that Pete Wilson lied)but Jason, I know you are are an intelligent man and yet you missed the point that both Pete and Arnold made campaign promises they immediately BROKE! of course, you will say "well, they're politicians after all" to which I will say "yes, but its still WRONG"

As for his policies not being as bad as people thought, I think you are premature! Many of the groups Arnie met with and thought they had reached an understanding with the man were only too alarmed to discover that he was completely disregarding his assurances (for example the educational agenda being gutted) I think shortchanging CA's kids is a VERY bad policy to follow, but then, I guess if the President of the US of A can do it, why shouldnt CA?

Bottom line, Arnie is a hypocrite, he berated Davis for his fundraising and being in cahoots with special interests and now he is doing the very same thing with NO SHAME! But then, he always DID have grandiose ideas of his importance. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

(It doesnt surprise me that Pete Wilson lied)but Jason, I know you are are an intelligent man and yet you missed the point that both Pete and Arnold made campaign promises they immediately BROKE! of course, you will say "well, they're politicians after all" to which I will say "yes, but its still WRONG"

As for his policies not being as bad as people thought, I think you are premature! Many of the groups Arnie met with and thought they had reached an understanding with the man were only too alarmed to discover that he was completely disregarding his assurances (for example the educational agenda being gutted) I think shortchanging CA's kids is a VERY bad policy to follow, but then, I guess if the President of the US of A can do it, why shouldnt CA?

Bottom line, Arnie is a hypocrite, he berated Davis for his fundraising and being in cahoots with special interests and now he is doing the very same thing with NO SHAME! But then, he always DID have grandiose ideas of his importance. :shrug:


I get all of that - I mean boo hoo Arnold lied about taking money - what politician does not and there is no evidence Arnols is beholden to them like Davis was (I submit no one was as crooked as Davis). Again, ALL I am saying is he has not been the horrible right wingers everyone said he would be. Also, the education stuff is mostly the fault of the US Govt. who in a nutshell has refused to fund the changes they mandated. But, even if the education thing is all Arnold's fault (which I know you know it is not :nod: ) - that is one thing. He has been fairly good in other areas, esp. when compared to any other R in office. That is my sole point. Again, I am not saying Arnold is the be all and end all of good politics and I may in fact be premature. I am just saying that as of now, he has not been as bad as many thought he was going to be. But, you will never admit that - and I know that :laugh:

[irishgrl]

I get all of that - I mean boo hoo Arnold lied about taking money - what politician does not and there is no evidence Arnols is beholden to them like Davis was (I submit no one was as crooked as Davis). Again, ALL I am saying is he has not been the horrible right wingers everyone said he would be. Also, the education stuff is mostly the fault of the US Govt. who in a nutshell has refused to fund the changes they mandated. But, even if the education thing is all Arnold's fault (which I know you know it is not :nod: ) - that is one thing. He has been fairly good in other areas, esp. when compared to any other R in office. That is my sole point. Again, I am not saying Arnold is the be all and end all of good politics and I may in fact be premature. I am just saying that as of now, he has not been as bad as many thought he was going to be. But, you will never admit that - and I know that :laugh:

I just didnt feel we needed to recall Gray Davis. He wasnt a bad Governor and for him to get recalled over the energy crisis is just egregious. and many of those who cried foul about Davis' collaboration with special interests were touting Arnie as free from taint because he used "his own money" and NOW he's every bit as bad if not more so than Gray ever was at pandering to special interests. I appreciate the fact that Arnie is pro-choice but I deplore his apparent ability to skirt obvious hypocrisy. THAT is my issue with Arnie, as for his possible moderate policies, I remain undecided (therefore unconvinced) To be fair, it hasnt been all that long that he's been in office so, I'll give him that. And, contrary to your assertion, I will say this about Arnie, he's a heck of a better Governor than the Bushwhacker is a President
:nod:

[strandinthewind]

I stand corrected :cool:

[irishgrl]

I stand corrected :cool:
barkeep, another round, put it on my tab!

[strandinthewind]

barkeep, another round, put it on my tab!

:laugh: -- before toasting - I stood corrected only as to the "And, contrary to your assertion, I will say this about Arnie, he's a heck of a better Governor than the Bushwhacker is a President" line :cool:

[irishgrl]

:laugh: -- before toasting - I stood corrected only as to the "And, contrary to your assertion, I will say this about Arnie, he's a heck of a better Governor than the Bushwhacker is a President" line :cool:
hey! good enuff for me!
:xoxo: