Billboard album sales

[macfan 57]

This is from the Ask Billboard section on Billboard's website:

Hi there,

I check your column weekly and really enjoy the questions asked and answered, so thank you for that. My questions are regarding Fleetwood Mac and Mick Fleetwood.

Both released albums in 2004. Fleetwood Mac with "Live In Boston" DVD and CD, and the Mick Fleetwood Band's "Something Big."

I was just wondering how well these two releases are doing sales-wise and whether or not you can provide any sales numbers for Fleetwood Mac's albums during the Nielsen SoundScan era.

Thanks for your time.

Peter Taylor

Hi Peter,

Fleetwood Mac's "Live in Boston" (Reprise) has sold just 58,000 in the United States, according to Nielsen SoundScan, since its bow in June 2004. The Mick Fleetwood Band's "Something Big" (Sanctuary) hasn't faired even as well -- its total stands at less than 3,000 units.

The Mac's biggest SoundScan-era (1991-present) release is 1997's "The Dance" (Reprise), which has sashayed through 4.3 million units.

[HomerMcvie]

So let me see if I understand this:
Christine in the band= sales very good
Christine out of band= sales suck?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :nod:

[Sorcerer386]

Well, I was looking on RIAA as I periodically do, just to see if there are any new certifications for Fleetwood Mac, and Live in Boston is certified platinum. I think for videos though 50,000 is gold instead of 500,000, and therefore 100,000 is platinum (again, that's SHIPPED units, not necessarily sold). I didn't think videos sold that well anyway, so I don't see why it is "just" 58,000 copies. It's not like it was hugely promoted like The Dance.

[Nixxxed]

I wonder - does this include all the LIB sets that were "given away" to people who donated to PBS when they premiered the show as part of their membership drives?

[Nixxxed]

So let me see if I understand this:
Christine in the band= sales very good
Christine out of band= sales suck?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :nod:
Yeah - TIME was a blockbuster. ;)

[MacMan]

These numbers and the question as well are old. This question was submitted by ME to Billboard... and I asked Billboard back in September, near the end of September actually, after Micks release, and they posted my question and their answer like a week later... They just reprinted (must have been a slow week in the Q&A dept.) It's exactly as it was back then... so I'm sure the numbers have gone up especially over the holidays.

[HomerMcvie]

Yeah - TIME was a blockbuster. ;)
And Christine, as I understand it, wasn't even going to be on Time. Her songs were added late into the project. And she didn't tour with the Time band. So there! ;)

[macfan 57]

These numbers and the question as well are old. This question was submitted by ME to Billboard... and I asked Billboard back in September, near the end of September actually, after Micks release, and they posted my question and their answer like a week later... They just reprinted (must have been a slow week in the Q&A dept.) It's exactly as it was back then... so I'm sure the numbers have gone up especially over the holidays.

No, I think the numbers are current. I remember back in October, the numbers for Mick's album were just under 2000. So it must have sold another 1000 since then. I think LIB was about 50,000. So it must have sold another 8000 or so since then, mostly over the holidays.

I think there are 2 DVD discs on LIB. That's why it's been certified platinum, even though it's only sold 58,000. It's the same with The Very Best Of Fleetwood Mac set. There are 2 CDs, so the numbers are doubled for RIAA certification purposes. The VBOFM CD probably will go multi-platinum by the end of this year, since it's still selling slowly, but steadily.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I wonder if SAY YOU WILL picked up any good sales over the holidays..I'm still shocked that it hasn't gone Platinum

Chris

[dissention]

I wonder if SAY YOU WILL picked up any good sales over the holidays..I'm still shocked that it hasn't gone Platinum

Chris

I'm not. It's one behemoth of an album and too mcuh for the mainstream public to swallow. Quite frankly, I'm shocked that Warners let them put it out as is.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I wonder if SAY YOU WILL picked up any good sales over the holidays..I'm still shocked that it hasn't gone Platinum

Chris


Yup. Still gold.

TVBOFM is platinum though. Rumours is like 19 times platinum.


riaa.com has all the info on each album.

[HomerMcvie]

I'm not. It's one behemoth of an album and too mcuh for the mainstream public to swallow. Quite frankly, I'm shocked that Warners let them put it out as is.
yep. Lindsey has lost his self editing ability.
Behemoth(sp) is the proper word....

[dissention]

yep. Lindsey has lost his self editing ability.
Behemoth is the proper word....

:laugh:

There really was no excuse for Come whatsoever or the inclusion of Bleed To Love Her, but I love the rest of his tracks (save the awful Peacekeeper that was ruined by Stevie's presence and the slowing of the tempo, I like the solo version MUCH better). I could have done without Thrown Down, Say You Will, Illume, and Silver Girl, though. They really add nothing.

[Hawkeye]

Say You Will IS definitely platnum whether it is or not. Madonna's last album is Platnum and Say You Will practically doubled Madonna's sales. So it's really just warners or whatever not wanting to certify SYW platnum even though it probably is.

[Hawkeye]

:laugh:

There really was no excuse for Come whatsoever or the inclusion of Bleed To Love Her, but I love the rest of his tracks (save the awful Peacekeeper that was ruined by Stevie's presence and the slowing of the tempo, I like the solo version MUCH better). I could have done without Thrown Down, Say You Will, Illume, and Silver Girl, though. They really add nothing.

Illume and Thrown Down added A LOT to Say You Will. And Say You Will added a lot to Say You Will simply by making Say You Will, Say You Will :laugh:

[dissention]

Say You Will IS definitely platnum whether it is or not. Madonna's last album is Platnum and Say You Will practically doubled Madonna's sales. So it's really just warners or whatever not wanting to certify SYW platnum even though it probably is.

No, Madonna's album shipped more than Say You Will did. :)

[dissention]

Illume and Thrown Down added A LOT to Say You Will. And Say You Will added a lot to Say You Will simply by making Say You Will, Say You Will :laugh:

Ugh, Thrown Down is putrid swill to these ears. I can't stand it. I specifically burned myself a copy without it. Same tired old cliches in a package with a bow that lost it's luster years ago. I like parts of Illume, but that laughable voice and her monotonous delivery, coupled with music that goes nowhere, ruin it for me. However, I did think the album should have been named Illume or Come. :laugh:

[Hawkeye]

No, Madonna's album shipped more than Say You Will did. :)

Well Say You Will SOLD a lot more.

[MacMan]

You have to actually pay RIAA to certify your albums.. cds.. whatever it is. Auditors need to be hired and paid to come in... look at all the data at the record label and there you have it.

If an artist or label does't feel like paying an auditor to do this, or if they want to wait to included other cds in their catelogue - then we sit and wait for the right time.

[Janet]

SYW is an amazing album. It's my fav FM album.

Every song should stay where it is but Silver Girl, Goodbye Baby and the title song.

[HomerMcvie]

SYW is an amazing album. It's my fav FM album.

Woah!.......well,......I can say......that's the FIRST time I've EVER read that! :lol:

[Kelly]

I love Thrown Down. It's catchy and the lyrics seem genuine enough to me.

As for the album and its sales or lack thereof....the marketing was fairly minimal. The appearances did not help. Stevie had zero energy on Leno and the Today Show? We won't go there. They obviously learned nothing from the success of the Dance. Why didn't they bother making a video for heavens sake? Peacekeeper, although not my first choice for the lead off single, could have generated an interesting concept video. Say You Will as well. (maybe something along the lines of LB's Slow Dancing video)

[Gazza]

To me the problem with the album is summed up by the fact that one song after hearing a bunch of young children sing the chorus to Say You Will, you then find Lindsey telling you to think of him every time you don't come.

They should have made one really energetic/inventive/different album with tracks like Come, Murrow, Everybody Finds Out, Illume, Red Rover etc. and put in a couple of the best single material songs like Thrown Down.

Stuff like What's The World Coming To, and Say You Will are just too generic imo.

But I definitely think there's more stuff there to enjoy than any album since Tusk. It just suffers in the same way Tusk does - there doesn't seem to be one collective vision for the album.

Everybody Finds Out would have been my choice for a single with a video.

[Hawkeye]

You have to actually pay RIAA to certify your albums.. cds.. whatever it is. Auditors need to be hired and paid to come in... look at all the data at the record label and there you have it.

If an artist or label does't feel like paying an auditor to do this, or if they want to wait to included other cds in their catelogue - then we sit and wait for the right time.

That's what I'm saying. No one feels like paying for SYW's Platnum status.

[gldstwmn]

To me the problem with the album is summed up by the fact that one song after hearing a bunch of young children sing the chorus to Say You Will, you then find Lindsey telling you to think of him every time you don't come.
I never quite thought of it this way but yes, you're right. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[golddustwoman77]

I think that it hasn't faired that well, because the marketing for the album, Say You Will, was sub-par, at best. :rolleyes: I've found that most "casual," Fleetwood Mac fans don't even know that they had a new album or video out. The general public has to be told that it is out there, or they just don't know that it is there=marketing. These people would have probably wanted to hear the new album, but they didn't know it was out there. Let's face it; we only knew the album was coming out, because we keep up with the band. I don't remember much publicity, except for a few commericals on at specific times on VH1 and VH1 Classic. I think Warner Brothers has failed the band by not marketing the album better. The band really should have pushed for that as well, but I think they have the attitude like Stevie said in Destiny Rules about how people her age are not "sitting on the floor smoking dope wondering what the next record is they're gonna buy." Therefore, they are just thankful to put out the record, and that the record company wanted to put it out. The band needs to remember who they are, and that they deserve to be marketed well. They have made A LOT of money for Warner Brothers over the years. What gets played on the radio today is what the record companies want, therefore if Warner Brothers had pushed this album, it would have gotten more air time, more publicity, etc. The crazy, record company world! :shrug:

[MacMan]

The days of when a record company sticks by a band or artist because they are acutally "good" and worth keeping around are gone! Today... the listener of radio and the buyer of music are in complete control here especially if you are on one of the major labels. It is so money driven that they, the labels, can't afford failures what so ever, they are spread that thin.

As for radio and video and not marketing the band enough... I'm not sure about that. I mean you can only do so much as a label, then you have to let the public dictate where the product is going to go. If there is huge response from listeners at radio level for a particular song, single or not, then the music reaches the top... there's no other way. Playlists aren't just made up by record labels cause they want a certain band to do well, they are ultimately derived from listener response. I'm sure there are all kinds of incentives and reminders thrown the radio stations way to promote stuff.. but in the end, the public dictates what they want to hear by responding to it. A combination of single sales and radio play used to make up the big charts, now that singles aren't being made much anymore you lose that end of the equation... If there are no singles to buy or no response at radio to play the music... the song goes nowhere.

Going out on tour for groups like FM is probably the best marketing tool they have to market their music now-adays. They hit all kinds of markets, big and small, especially on this tour. This is usually accompanied by print media on the band either in reviews of the show, or just write-ups in general about them still being a group and out on the road - which usually mentions any new music if they have it... I'm sure there are radio announcements.... and in some markets tv spots.

I don't know... It's a weird situation I think and a challenge for a labels I'm sure. I try to think from my perspective... What type of advertising would make me realize that something was out there. I don't sit around watching videos all the time or even have those stations on, mainly because they aren't vid stations anymore. I was around when MTV first started out and it was excellent... nothing but videos - pretty much 24/7! And you'd sit and wait.. or leave the tv on, just to catch your favorite band. Now.. There's like an hour here and there alotted for videos!! So basically that angle would be useless. Radio.... Get maybe an hour of it a day when getting up and ready for work... other then that, it's the computer or tv.. Or if they came to town, I'd hear about that....

I think doing things like the All Access half hour gig and the Destiny Rules Doc. on vh1 are also great ways they were marketed... It's a little bit extra other then just throwing out a cd and praying to god that radio plays it. And I also think the pbs Live In Boston was a good idea, although it was on at very weird times of the night, so in the end, it probably did squat to promote anything! They should have had like an hour long concert on one of the big 4 stations instead of pbs... that would have been great!

In the end... people have to care enough to go out and buy the music. I mean they cared enough to go out and see the band on the road... Let's see... approx. 140 shows, roughly 10,000 per show... You do the math.

[Nixxxed]

I think doing things like the All Access half hour gig and the Destiny Rules Doc. on vh1 are also great ways they were marketed... It's a little bit extra other then just throwing out a cd and praying to god that radio plays it. And I also think the pbs Live In Boston was a good idea, although it was on at very weird times of the night, so in the end, it probably did squat to promote anything! They should have had like an hour long concert on one of the big 4 stations instead of pbs... that would have been great!

In the end... people have to care enough to go out and buy the music. I mean they cared enough to go out and see the band on the road... Let's see... approx. 140 shows, roughly 10,000 per show... You do the math.

Sure, except Destiny Rules came out more than a year later, with no other support for the album. I mean - they played the Miranda chords at every commercial, and there's the title of the doc itself. So, why weren't those 2 songs pushed as singles at that point, with a little blurb on the show that announced it?

[dissention]

I think that it hasn't faired that well, because the marketing for the album, Say You Will, was sub-par, at best. :rolleyes:

But, honestly, how should they have marketed the album? As far as it stands as an actual piece of work, it's just a dark and brooding mish-mash of two musical styles that don't work together. Red Rover on the same album as Everybody Finds Out? Silver Girl on the same album as Murrow Turning Over In His Grave? Come on the same album as Goodbye Baby? As much as I love the album, it has no continuity, none of it blends together at all, and it turns out just being mess. It's just too much for one to handle, many of the die-hards on this board have even said as much. And if it's hard for the big fans to swallow, just imagine how hard a pill it was for the general public to swallow.

I think part of the reason the album sank like a stone is bad word of mouth. Reading the user reviews on Amazon is very telling because most of them come from simply casual fans. Boiled down, most people missed Christine, found Lindsey's tracks were off-putting, and Stevie either left people scratching their heads or loving what were seen as the only commercial tracks on the blasted thing. The reviews weren't exactly kind, either. Some critics thought Silver Girl was about a porn star, they called Red Rover noisy junk, said Illume was downright "embarrassing," thought Everybody Finds Out was a desperate attempt to reach the young crowd, accused Lindsey of being a spoiler when it comes to production, and blasted it for being such a long epic album with no real point. What gets our jollies off as fans is really off-putting to casual fans.

The album could have been a big hit, but the actual content of it prevented that from happening. I think Warners did a phenomenal job marketing it, the public just didn't care for the product very much. :)

[dissention]

Sure, except Destiny Rules came out more than a year later, with no other support for the album. I mean - they played the Miranda chords at every commercial, and there's the title of the doc itself. So, why weren't those 2 songs pushed as singles at that point, with a little blurb on the show that announced it?

I think it took forever to be released on VH1 because the band had to have it edited to their satisfaction, i.e. sanitize it. Didn't you find it odd that the battles over the tour length and the running order were mysteriously left out and only referred to? :laugh: :p

[Brwn_eyes0511]

But, honestly, how should they have marketed the album? As far as it stands as an actual piece of work, it's just a dark and brooding mish-mash of two musical styles that don't work together. Red Rover on the same album as Everybody Finds Out? Silver Girl on the same album as Murrow Turning Over In His Grave? Come on the same album as Goodbye Baby? As much as I love the album, it has no continuity, none of it blends together at all, and it turns out just being mess. It's just too much for one to handle, many of the die-hards on this board have even said as much. And if it's hard for the big fans to swallow, just imagine how hard a pill it was for the general public to swallow.

I think part of the reason the album sank like a stone is bad word of mouth. Reading the user reviews on Amazon is very telling because most of them come from simply casual fans. Boiled down, most people missed Christine, found Lindsey's tracks were off-putting, and Stevie either left people scratching their heads or loving what were seen as the only commercial tracks on the blasted thing. The reviews weren't exactly kind, either. Some critics thought Silver Girl was about a porn star, they called Red Rover noisy junk, said Illume was downright "embarrassing," thought Everybody Finds Out was a desperate attempt to reach the young crowd, accused Lindsey of being a spoiler when it comes to production, and blasted it for being such a long epic album with no real point. What gets our jollies off as fans is really off-putting to casual fans.

The album could have been a big hit, but the actual content of it prevented that from happening. I think Warners did a phenomenal job marketing it, the public just didn't care for the product very much. :)

I agree with your post. I think Christine's style of music was really missed and she always was able to make their albums blend more with the three of their styles all together instead of just two.

Hasn't the album gone Gold? I believe it has, which isn't that great considering what FM is capable of doing and for the simple fact that their "The Very Best Of..." 2 CD set has gone multiplatinum and was only released a year BEFORE SYW. But hey, at least Gold is SOMETHING, it's no platinum but its something considering most artist today don't even merit that.

[GypsySorcerer]

No matter how it was marketed, I don't think Say You Will would have been a hit released as it is. Most casual fans yearn for the "Rumours" days, and anything but "Go Your Own Way" and "Dreams" will be greeted with apprehension. The tour sold well because it included a generous helping of their hits, and I think many felt that this tour might be their last chance to see FM in concert.

[dissention]

Tsk. Most people simply haven't a clue, nor an appreciation for the finer things. Still, it makes one realise their superiority over the masses.

That it does.

Most people are dolts, unfortunately.

[Johnny Stew]

As much as I love the album, it has no continuity, none of it blends together at all, and it turns out just being mess. It's just too much for one to handle, many of the die-hards on this board have even said as much. And if it's hard for the big fans to swallow, just imagine how hard a pill it was for the general public to swallow.
Reading the user reviews on Amazon is very telling because most of them come from simply casual fans. Boiled down, most people missed Christine, found Lindsey's tracks were off-putting, and Stevie either left people scratching their heads or loving what were seen as the only commercial tracks on the blasted thing.

Yet, many of those things can be said of 'Tusk,' too, and that album is regarded as a masterpiece around here.
'Tusk' is definitely a mishmash of styles. Need I remind anyone that the CLOMP! CLOMP! CLOMP! of "What Makes You Think You're The One" follows the languid six-minute piano & acoustic guitar laced "Sara"? And that the edgy, brash and punk-tinged "WMYTYTO" then leads into "Storms"... another slow and mournful ballad?

Or that "The Ledge"... a quirky head-scratcher of a song if ever there was one... is only the second track on the album, following on the heels of Christine's ballad, "Over And Over," and then leading into the Top 40 sounding "Think About Me"?

The album is filled with jarring moments like that.

And as far as missing Christine... well, on 'Tusk' there's a span of nine songs between two of Christine's tunes, and people seem to get through that all right.


What gets our jollies off as fans is really off-putting to casual fans.

Well, the band makes up for it with the casual fans, by sticking to all the big hits in their concert setlists. ;)

As usual, it's a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. The "commercial" moments on the album... "Say You Will," "Steal Your Heart Away," etc.... were met with groans of displeasure from the "diehards." But the edgy material that many of us here love, elicited groans from the casual fans (and, hell, even many of the diehards too!).

They have material on this album that SHOULD please both factions... and, yet, neither seem pleased. One group wishes the album was entirely "like the Mac of old," and the other group wishes the entire album was dark and edgy.

I'm a weird little goober, because I love Fleetwood Mac's "variety pack" albums, and the fact that many moods and styles are reflected in the selection.


The album could have been a big hit, but the actual content of it prevented that from happening. I think Warners did a phenomenal job marketing it, the public just didn't care for the product very much. :)

Had the band capitalized on the success of 'The Dance' and released an album like this within a year and a half of that monster seller, I think it could have sold MUCH better.

But, they didn't strike while the iron was hot... a six year wait is a LIFETIME in the music industry... so a safer album would have been an "easier sell," and might have helped them overcome the length of time between releases.
Instead, they released a very eclectic album which required more investment from its audience.

From a business standpoint, it wasn't at all wise... but if the band feels satisfied with the album creatively, then it was definitely a success in the end. :)

[dissention]

Yet, many of those things can be said of 'Tusk,' too, and that album is regarded as a masterpiece around here.
'Tusk' is definitely a mishmash of styles. Need I remind anyone that the CLOMP! CLOMP! CLOMP! of "What Makes You Think You're The One" follows the languid six-minute piano & acoustic guitar laced "Sara"? And that the edgy, brash and punk-tinged "WMYTYTO" then leads into "Storms"... another slow and mournful ballad?

Or that "The Ledge"... a quirky head-scratcher of a song if ever there was one... is only the second track on the album, following on the heels of Christine's ballad, "Over And Over," and then leading into the Top 40 sounding "Think About Me"?

The album is filled with jarring moments like that.

And as far as missing Christine... well, on 'Tusk' there's a span of nine songs between two of Christine's tunes, and people seem to get through that all right.

Yeah, and Tusk flopped as well.

Well, the band makes up for it with the casual fans, by sticking to all the big hits in their concert setlists. ;)

But of course, that's where the money is. Heaven forbid Fleetwood Mac ever did anything unexpected or halfway original in concert. More power to those that spend $125 to hear Stevie sing Dreams for the 34,987,013 time because I could never do it. :laugh:

As usual, it's a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. The "commercial" moments on the album... "Say You Will," "Steal Your Heart Away," etc.... were met with groans of displeasure from the "diehards." But the edgy material that many of us here love, elicited groans from the casual fans (and, hell, even many of the diehards too!).

They have material on this album that SHOULD please both factions... and, yet, neither seem pleased. One group wishes the album was entirely "like the Mac of old," and the other group wishes the entire album was dark and edgy.

I'm a weird little goober, because I love Fleetwood Mac's "variety pack" albums, and the fact that many moods and styles are reflected in the selection.

You make it sound as if no one likes the album. You must have missed it in my post where I was speaking form the viewpoint of the casual fan. When put into their shoes, you should have no problem understanding why the content of the album was the cause of its bombing. To fans of Landslide and Go Your Own Way, it was nothing more than a slap in the face and just a lot of noise with no purpose.

Had the band capitalized on the success of 'The Dance' and released an album like this within a year and a half of that monster seller, I think it could have sold MUCH better.

But, they didn't strike while the iron was hot... a six year wait is a LIFETIME in the music industry... so a safer album would have been an "easier sell," and might have helped them overcome the length of time between releases.
Instead, they released a very eclectic album which required more investment from its audience.

Eclectic is a nice way to say that it's disjointed and flows together like oil and water. It can be called many nice names and I happen to like the album a lot, but let's stop the window dressing and call it what it is: a monster of an album that is quite the acquired taste. It's Lindsey and Stevie unleashed and at their most indulgent. While the individual songs are pretty damn good, there was absolutely no vision or thinking as to how it would go together as a final product and the album suffers from it. While I love getting 18 tracks as opposed to 12, most folks simply don't have the patience to listen to it.

Tusk flows better for the simple fact that there are two extremes (Lindsey and Stevie) with Christine's middle-of-the-road approach between them to lessen their impact a bit. Say You Will, unfortunately, is in your face constantly and the fact that, as someone pointed out earlier, you hear little kids singing "Say you will give me one more chance" followed by Lindsey talking about coming and not coming is not only off-putting but it makes you wonder if they really put ANY thought into the what the album would be as an end product. Instead, it sounds like two different artists laying down a bit of vocals on each other's songs to pretty them up for the use of the Fleetwood Mac name. And that's what it really is, essentially. Doesn't mean I don't love the album, it just means calling a spade a spade.

From a business standpoint, it wasn't at all wise... but if the band feels satisfied with the album creatively, then it was definitely a success in the end. :)

Since when has Fleetwood Mac made smart business decisions? :laugh:

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I agree with your post. I think Christine's style of music was really missed and she always was able to make their albums blend more with the three of their styles all together instead of just two.

Hasn't the album gone Gold? I believe it has, which isn't that great considering what FM is capable of doing and for the simple fact that their "The Very Best Of..." 2 CD set has gone multiplatinum and was only released a year BEFORE SYW. But hey, at least Gold is SOMETHING, it's no platinum but its something considering most artist today don't even merit that.


TVBOFM still hasnt SOLD as much as SAY YOU WILL...as was discussed earlier it has shipped many more units because they give stores many more copies of best of albums...hence the reason Best Buy here has like 50 VBOFM albums and like 3 SYW's...but its first week of release it only sold around 66,000 and debuted at #12...SAY YOU WILL has actually sold nearly 900,000 copies...and likely has shipped over a million---but for whatever reason they still havent gotten it certified platinum

[joe68]

Dissention, you're taking the words from my mouth. And you saved me from having to write it down!

[dissention]

Dissention, you're taking the words from my mouth. And you saved me from having to write it down!

Ah, it's my pleasure. :laugh: :xoxo:

[Brwn_eyes0511]

TVBOFM still hasnt SOLD as much as SAY YOU WILL...as was discussed earlier it has shipped many more units because they give stores many more copies of best of albums...hence the reason Best Buy here has like 50 VBOFM albums and like 3 SYW's...but its first week of release it only sold around 66,000 and debuted at #12...SAY YOU WILL has actually sold nearly 900,000 copies...and likely has shipped over a million---but for whatever reason they still havent gotten it certified platinum

Correction TVBOFM HAS gone platinum (therefore selling more than SYW) according to RIAA anyways!

FLEETWOOD MAC: THE VERY BEST OF FLEETWOOD MAC (as of 01/10/03)WARNER STRATEGIC MARKETING Platinum ALBUM

www.riaa.com

[dissention]

Correction TVBOFM HAS gone platinum (therefore selling more than SYW) according to RIAA anyways!

FLEETWOOD MAC: THE VERY BEST OF FLEETWOOD MAC (as of 01/10/03)WARNER STRATEGIC MARKETING Platinum ALBUM

www.riaa.com

VBOFM hasn't sold as much as SYW because VBOFM is counted as two discs, so when it says platinum, it really means gold (500,000).

[Brwn_eyes0511]

VBOFM hasn't sold as much as SYW because VBOFM is counted as two discs, so when it says platinum, it really means gold (500,000).

Oh ok. I didn't realize they count that as two.

[MacMan]

This was the initial answer from Billboard, when I first asked the question on sales: TVBOFM is on its way to being Double Platinum actually, because the 2 disc set is counted as 2 for every single purchase.

TIME has sold 50,000 copies as of November 2004

25 YEARS: THE CHAIN has sold 79,000 copies as of November 2004

THE DANCE has sold 4.3 million copies as of November 2004

VERY BEST OF FLEETWOOD MAC has sold 958,000 copies as of November 2004

LIVE IN BOSTON has sold 50,000 copies as of November 2004

SOMETHING BIG has sold 2,000 copies as of November 2004

[macfan 57]

And, I remember SYW was at 838,000 sold around that time.

[Brwn_eyes0511]

This was the initial answer from Billboard, when I first asked the question on sales: TVBOFM is on its way to being Double Platinum actually, because the 2 disc set is counted as 2 for every single purchase.

TIME has sold 50,000 copies as of November 2004

25 YEARS: THE CHAIN has sold 79,000 copies as of November 2004

THE DANCE has sold 4.3 million copies as of November 2004

VERY BEST OF FLEETWOOD MAC has sold 958,000 copies as of November 2004

LIVE IN BOSTON has sold 50,000 copies as of November 2004

SOMETHING BIG has sold 2,000 copies as of November 2004

I wonder what In The Meatime has sold? US and UK?

[Brwn_eyes0511]

And, I remember SYW was at 838,000 sold around that time.

OK. I thought that TVBOFM had sold more than SYW. I remember reading SOMEWHERE! lol ;)

[strandinthewind]

. . . Well that's because Stevie's interjections distrupted the fluent masterpiece that is the combination of Lindsey's tracks. Once again, Lindsey being forced to compromise for her stardom. When I speak of SYW I refer only to Lindsey's tracks and that is a brilliant album with a 'vision'. Although it is a somewhat shorten one seeing as Stevie had to twirl on in with her mundanity draped in chiffon. I realise however that to the casual listener (as opposed to the more frantic listener...does SYW even have casual listeners?) it's the whole product but their inability to distinguish and appreciate Lindsey's brilliance further emphasises why they should all be beaten.

Intertestingly, he did not seem to have a problem doing it and in fact seemed intrigued by adding her to his stuff - thus, your point appears to be irrelevant and incorrect or at least unwilling to admit that LB's brilliance loves Stevie's talent :wavey:

[dissention]

Intertestingly, he did not seem to have a problem doing it and in fact seemed intrigued by adding her to his stuff - thus, your point appears to be irrelevant and incorrect or at least unwilling to admit that LB's brilliance loves Stevie's talent :wavey:

Too bad his brilliance trumps her talent at every possible turn. :xoxo:

[HomerMcvie]

Intertestingly, he did not seem to have a problem doing it and in fact seemed intrigued by adding her to his stuff - thus, your point appears to be irrelevant and incorrect or at least unwilling to admit that LB's brilliance loves Stevie's talent :wavey:
Would you say that to Bob Dylan? :shrug: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[dissention]

Would you say that to Bob Dylan? :shrug: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lindsey loves the poet that she is. ;)

[strandinthewind]

Too bad his brilliance trumps her talent at every possible turn. :xoxo:

Now Now - let's not make this into a LB is more talented than SN thread - not that that was what you were trying to do :wavey: :roilleyes: :wavey:

My point was LB seemed thrilled to work with La Nicks and appreciated her contributions as well as producing her - thus, the lovely Lux's point or at least implication that La Nicks somehow was on the former LB solo stuff to LB's chagrain was not supported :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lindsey loves the poet that she is. ;)

I think he loves the money it has made him :shrug: - just as she loves the effect his enourmous talent has had on her work -

I guess people just love poking at them and constantly trying to say one is better than the other. I think such comparisons are apples and oranges because each has their own talent and thusly contributes in their own way. Yet - the guff of La Nicks is neverending :rolleyes: and she is laughing all of the way to the bank as is LB :wavey:

[dissention]

My point was LB seemed thrilled to work with La Nicks and appreciated her contributions as well as producing her - thus, the lovely Lux's point or at least implication that La Nicks somehow was on the former LB solo stuff to LB's chagrain was not supported :wavey:

How the man who gave the world Red Rover can appreciate the likes of Silver Girl and Running Through the Garden is beyond me, but I get your point. ;)

I still wish, however, that he had either saved Peacekeeper for a solo album or not used it at all. Stevie's presence on it aggravates me to no end and I hate how the tempo was slowed. Grr.

[dissention]

I think he loves the money it has made him :shrug: - just as she loves the effect his enourmous talent has had on her work -

Of course he loves the money, who the hell wouldn't? But he looks and sounds like such a dumbf*ck once he starts with his starving artist routine that I can't bear to look at him. :laugh:

I guess people just love poking at them and constantly trying to say one is better than the other. I think such comparisons are apples and oranges because each has their own talent and thusly contributes in their own way. Yet - the guff of La Nicks is neverending :rolleyes: and she is laughing all of the way to the bank as is LB :wavey:

Well, I do think Lindsey is better than she is. :lol:

[jbrownsjr]

But, honestly, how should they have marketed the album? As far as it stands as an actual piece of work, it's just a dark and brooding mish-mash of two musical styles that don't work together. Red Rover on the same album as Everybody Finds Out? Silver Girl on the same album as Murrow Turning Over In His Grave? Come on the same album as Goodbye Baby? As much as I love the album, it has no continuity, none of it blends together at all, and it turns out just being mess. It's just too much for one to handle, many of the die-hards on this board have even said as much. And if it's hard for the big fans to swallow, just imagine how hard a pill it was for the general public to swallow.

I think part of the reason the album sank like a stone is bad word of mouth. Reading the user reviews on Amazon is very telling because most of them come from simply casual fans. Boiled down, most people missed Christine, found Lindsey's tracks were off-putting, and Stevie either left people scratching their heads or loving what were seen as the only commercial tracks on the blasted thing. The reviews weren't exactly kind, either. Some critics thought Silver Girl was about a porn star, they called Red Rover noisy junk, said Illume was downright "embarrassing," thought Everybody Finds Out was a desperate attempt to reach the young crowd, accused Lindsey of being a spoiler when it comes to production, and blasted it for being such a long epic album with no real point. What gets our jollies off as fans is really off-putting to casual fans.

The album could have been a big hit, but the actual content of it prevented that from happening. I think Warners did a phenomenal job marketing it, the public just didn't care for the product very much. :)


Yes! Sometimes you really make sense! :shocked:

[Johnny Stew]

Yeah, and Tusk flopped as well.

Compared to 'Rumours,' sure. But 4 million albums is nothing to sneeze at.
And my point was that people don't have a problem declaring 'Tusk' an unequivocal masterpiece despite the comparatively small sales and despite the haphazard running order and massive disparity between the styles of the songs from the three writers.


You make it sound as if no one likes the album. You must have missed it in my post where I was speaking form the viewpoint of the casual fan. When put into their shoes, you should have no problem understanding why the content of the album was the cause of its bombing. To fans of Landslide and Go Your Own Way, it was nothing more than a slap in the face and just a lot of noise with no purpose.

I was merely pointing out that, as I see it, 'Say You Will' has something for everyone. Songs that should definitely please the fans of "Landslide," "Dreams," et al., and songs that should definitely please the fans of "Save Me A Place," "What Makes You Think You're The One" and "The Ledge," etc.

And if 'SYW' had followed hot on the heels of 'The Dance,' as 'Tusk' followed 'Rumours,' then I think it would have found a larger audience more willing to give it a chance. :shrug:


Eclectic is a nice way to say that it's disjointed and flows together like oil and water.

Again... exactly like 'Tusk.' :)


It can be called many nice names and I happen to like the album a lot, but let's stop the window dressing and call it what it is: a monster of an album that is quite the acquired taste. It's Lindsey and Stevie unleashed and at their most indulgent. While the individual songs are pretty damn good, there was absolutely no vision or thinking as to how it would go together as a final product and the album suffers from it. While I love getting 18 tracks as opposed to 12, most folks simply don't have the patience to listen to it.

Tusk flows better for the simple fact that there are two extremes (Lindsey and Stevie) with Christine's middle-of-the-road approach between them to lessen their impact a bit.

I disagree... in it's original running order, 'Tusk' doesn't flow well at all. At least not to my ears.
For a nine song run, 'Tusk' is nothing but the "indulgent" extremes of Lindsey and Stevie, with Lindsey's material sounding the absolute least like ANYTHING that ever graced a Mac album before.
And Christine's last four songs almost feel like afterthoughts within the running order.


Instead, it sounds like two different artists laying down a bit of vocals on each other's songs to pretty them up for the use of the Fleetwood Mac name. And that's what it really is, essentially. Doesn't mean I don't love the album, it just means calling a spade a spade.

Obviously I can see why it seems that way, regarding Lindsey's songs (which I'm not at all knocking, by the way)... but I don't understand why people feel Stevie's songs also sound like solo tracks that Lindsey just happens to be singing on.
He produced them, arranged them, played on them, and sang on them. What more could he have done, other than sitting in Stevie's living room playing guitar as she wrote them? And that hasn't happened in 27 years!

At any rate... all I'm trying to say is that I think anyone who adores 'Tusk' shouldn't have a problem adoring 'Say You Will'... just as it is.
'Tusk' and 'SYW' share almost all of the same strengths and weaknesses, aside from a lack of Christine songs on the latter.

[Johnny Stew]

Too bad his brilliance trumps her talent at every possible turn. :xoxo:

Aside from the innovative guitar-playing style used on "Red Rover" and "Say Goodbye," everything Lindsey does has already been done by him a million times before.
The left-to-right-channel panning, the "fun with VSO," the solos that sound as if they were lifted from earlier tunes, and so on.

Let me stress that I love it all... but, aside from a couple of rare tracks here and there, Lindsey basically sticks to the same approach he's been using for decades.
But that's what a good artist does... they work around their weaknesses and learn to play up their strengths. Lindsey does that, and Stevie does that. We're just all so familiar with their work now, that we sometimes have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

He IS brilliant, but she is as well. In two different ways. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Well, I do think Lindsey is better than she is. :lol:

:laugh:

Thus negating anything you have to say in regards to Stevie's contributions, whether on their own merits or in comparison to Lindsey's.
You're obviously biased towards him, in the same way that many people are biased towards her. ;) :xoxo: *lol*

[dissention]

Aside from the innovative guitar-playing style used on "Red Rover" and "Say Goodbye," everything Lindsey does has already been done by him a million times before.
The left-to-right-channel panning, the "fun with VSO," the solos that sound as if they were lifted from earlier tunes, and so on.

Let me stress that I love it all... but, aside from a couple of rare tracks here and there, Lindsey basically sticks to the same approach he's been using for decades.
But that's what a good artist does... they work around their weaknesses and learn to play up their strengths. Lindsey does that, and Stevie does that. We're just all so familiar with their work now, that we sometimes have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

He IS brilliant, but she is as well. In two different ways. :)

I have trouble seeing the forest from the trees because I think Lindsey is brilliant and Stevie is mediocre? :laugh: I've said it a million times, Stevie was great years ago, she does almost nothing for me now. You can pretty it up by saying they're both brilliant and so on, we both have our own opinions regarding their music. But they're just musicians who make silly rock and pop tunes. :laugh:

[dissention]

You're obviously biased towards him, in the same way that many people are biased towards her. ;) :xoxo: *lol*

Ho****. We're in the same boat, then. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

I have trouble seeing the forest from the trees because I think Lindsey is brilliant and Stevie is mediocre? :laugh: I've said it a million times, Stevie was great years ago, she does almost nothing for me now. You can pretty it up by saying they're both brilliant and so on, we both have our own opinions regarding their music. But they're just musicians who make silly rock and pop tunes. :laugh:

I honestly think that you're burned out on Stevie. (Not that my armchair observations hold any water.)

If Stevie had released a mere three solo albums over the course of the last 20+ years, then I think you'd be more inclined to appreciate what she's doing now. It would seem "fresher" and more exciting to you, perhaps.
It seems to me (again, not that my opinion matters) that your familiarity with her music has bred a level of contempt.

Conversely, if Lindsey was the one with six or seven albums of his channel-panning, voice-oscillations, and familiar-sounding guitar solos, then HE might be the one you'd be bored with right now. :shrug:

Your boredom doesn't negate her brilliance, my dear. *lol* ;) :xoxo:

But they're just musicians who make silly rock and pop tunes. :laugh:

I've been saying that for years... which is why I don't understand why folks can't just sit back and enjoy the music rather than looking for flaws with everything. ;)

[dissention]

Compared to 'Rumours,' sure. But 4 million albums is nothing to sneeze at.

4 million is the cumulative number since its release. It was an outright flop in 1979. It wasn't even certified double platinum until five years after it was released.

And my point was that people don't have a problem declaring 'Tusk' an unequivocal masterpiece despite the comparatively small sales and despite the haphazard running order and massive disparity between the styles of the songs from the three writers.

Once again, you're talking about big fans. I am not. :wavey:

Show me a casual fan who will declare Tusk an "unequivocal masterpiece" and I will eat my hat.

I was merely pointing out that, as I see it, 'Say You Will' has something for everyone. Songs that should definitely please the fans of "Landslide," "Dreams," et al., and songs that should definitely please the fans of "Save Me A Place," "What Makes You Think You're The One" and "The Ledge," etc.

Too bad the record buying public disagrees.

And if 'SYW' had followed hot on the heels of 'The Dance,' as 'Tusk' followed 'Rumours,' then I think it would have found a larger audience more willing to give it a chance. :shrug:

I don't think so. I think if it was dropped right after The Dance, it would have sold slightly better, but the content would still have prevented it from being that big of a success.

Again... exactly like 'Tusk.' :)

I disagree.

I disagree... in it's original running order, 'Tusk' doesn't flow well at all. At least not to my ears.
For a nine song run, 'Tusk' is nothing but the "indulgent" extremes of Lindsey and Stevie, with Lindsey's material sounding the absolute least like ANYTHING that ever graced a Mac album before.
And Christine's last four songs almost feel like afterthoughts within the running order.

I disagree. In the flow department, Tusk blows Say You Will out of the water.

Obviously I can see why it seems that way, regarding Lindsey's songs (which I'm not at all knocking, by the way)... but I don't understand why people feel Stevie's songs also sound like solo tracks that Lindsey just happens to be singing on.

Because they do. That doesn't necessarily make them bad, dear.

At any rate... all I'm trying to say is that I think anyone who adores 'Tusk' shouldn't have a problem adoring 'Say You Will'... just as it is.
'Tusk' and 'SYW' share almost all of the same strengths and weaknesses, aside from a lack of Christine songs on the latter.

Too bad you completely read my post wrong and thought I, for some reason, was tlaking about die hard fans. I was not

[Johnny Stew]

Ho****. We're in the same boat, then. :laugh:

I think Lindsey is absolutely brilliant, and he's my second favorite artist of all time. But I don't deny that I'm thusly a little more biased towards my "#1" favorite... who happens to be Stevie. :)

Her recent work thrills me as much as her earlier work (sometimes moreso). As does his (also sometimes moreso).
Which is why they both remain brilliant in my eyes... whether someone wants to view that as me "prettying things up" or not. :shrug:

[dissention]

I honestly think that you're burned out on Stevie. (Not that my armchair observations hold any water.)

I'm not burned out on Stevie, I'm simply sick of her current boring material. I still play her older material on a regular basis and that wouldn't be happening if I was "burned out" on her. I simply dislike her current mediocre offerings. To quote the Queen herself, she's a "pale shadow" of her former self in the writing department. The leaking of My Heart certainly proved as much. :p

If Stevie had released a mere three solo albums over the course of the last 20+ years, then I think you'd be more inclined to appreciate what she's doing now. It would seem "fresher" and more exciting to you, perhaps.
It seems to me (again, not that my opinion matters) that your familiarity with her music has bred a level of contempt.

I see. It's not Stevie per se, it's just that she's released more crappy stuff over the years than Lindsey. :laugh:

Conversely, if Lindsey was the one with six or seven albums of his channel-panning, voice-oscillations, and familiar-sounding guitar solos, then HE might be the one you'd be bored with right now. :shrug:

Considering that I play his solo albums and mix CDs almost daily, I'm curious as to why I've not gotten burned out on him yet. :woohoo:

Your boredom doesn't negate her brilliance, my dear. *lol* ;) :xoxo:

No, her lack of interesting and new ideas does. :xoxo:

I've been saying that for years... which is why I don't understand why folks can't just sit back and enjoy the music rather than looking for flaws with everything. ;)

Because, my dear. This place wouldn't exist and you'd be out of a job. ;)

[MacMan]

We interupt this conversation to bring you.....

"To loosen the bunch of you up... Head over the The Legacy (http://www.fmlegacy.com/songweek1.html) in the song of the week department... There's two "New" remixes of Big Love done by Deep Dish just recently... They are really really good!!... The White Label one especially... Anyway...

This ends the interuption.....

[dissention]

C'mon, folks, flame away and get it over with. :lol: :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Show me a casual fan who will declare Tusk an "unequivocal masterpiece" and I will eat my hat.

'Tusk' seems to be an album that has impressed many a former Mac-detractor or mere casual fan. It just depends on what genre of music they tend to like best, coming into the album.
Music critics line up to declare it one of the all-time best albums... and most of those critics wouldn't be caught dead admitting they're anything more than a casual Mac fan. :shrug:


Because they do. That doesn't necessarily make them bad, dear.

Aside from "Running Through The Garden" and "Everybody Finds Out," which are definitely far more in keeping with her solo material, Stevie's contributions all sound like Fleetwood Mac songs to me. :shrug:


Too bad you completely read my post wrong and thought I, for some reason, was tlaking about die hard fans. I was not

I started out commenting on the reactions of casual fans, but I did move into commenting on the reactions of some of the diehards, too... unfortunately muddying the debate in the process. *lol* :sorry:

Of course everything you've said about the public's reaction to 'Tusk' is completely true. It, too, was a "behemoth of an album" that many found very difficult to appreciate in its time.

Still, I know a lot of those casual fans eventually came to an appreciation for 'Tusk,' and many now cite it as their favorite Mac album (even as they remain simply casual fans).
So I guess I have a difficult time seeing why 'Say You Will' wouldn't hold the same appeal for those people. But perhaps it's going to take hindsight for 'SYW' to be fully appreciated, too. :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

I'm not burned out on Stevie, I'm simply sick of her current boring material. I still play her older material on a regular basis and that wouldn't be happening if I was "burned out" on her. I simply dislike her current mediocre offerings. To quote the Queen herself, she's a "pale shadow" of her former self in the writing department.

It's easy to listen to a song we ALREADY love and adore, for the one millionth time... than it is to find an appreciation for something new that doesn't manage to live up to our expectations.

You tend to like things that are surprising to you... and that's cool. We all want to be surprised and impressed in some way. Stevie's material doesn't surprise you anymore, because... in my opinion... you've grown bored with her style. You want her to take left turns, and you seem frustrated that she doesn't... so your enthusiasm and interest in her music past a particular era in her career, has waned.

I see. It's not Stevie per se, it's just that she's released more crappy stuff over the years than Lindsey. :laugh:

Smart ass. :laugh: :xoxo:
What I meant was that the multiple years (and sometimes decades) between Lindsey's releases, highlights the contrast between the stylistic tones of his albums.
If he had released more albums during the in-between years, then the music may have seemed far less diverse overall.


Considering that I play his solo albums and mix CDs almost daily, I'm curious as to why I've not gotten burned out on him yet. :woohoo:
Lindsey continues to thrill you now, but I'd be interested in seeing how you still feel about him in another ten or twenty years, if he doesn't take any additional left-turns in his style or approach in a way that you find exciting or intriguing.


Because, my dear. This place wouldn't exist and you'd be out of a job. ;)
Well, that's why I keep the debates going, dissy... we have to have SOMETHING to talk about around here! But shhhh... that's just between you and me. ;) :xoxo:

[hayley]

By the way, just in case anyone's interested in the actual numbers instead of rehashing the same old tired argument about why SYW sold so little, how badly WEA marketed it, etc.- here are some numbers.

Live in Boston- 58,632
Say You Will- 842,955
VBoFM- 1,002,302 (and yes- that's SS numbers, so divide it in half)
The Dance- 3,879,388
Christine McVie/In the Meantime- 19,944 (U.S. only)

All of those records with the exception of the Dance are scanning a couple hundred copies a week. The Dance still sells anywhere betwen 2K-4K on average a week.

Mick's album is so inconsequential that I'm too lazy to log into Soundscan to check the numbers.

And long ago in this thread, someone compared it to Madonna's American Life- American Life has scanned 653,238 as of last week.

[Johnny Stew]

Head over the The Legacy (http://www.fmlegacy.com/songweek1.html) in the song of the week department... There's two "New" remixes of Big Love done by Deep Dish just recently... They are really really good!!... The White Label one especially...

Ooh! Thanks for the heads-up... I've been looking for these remixes! :blob2:

Thanks, MacMan! :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

By the way, just in case anyone's interested in the actual numbers instead of rehashing the same old tired argument about why SYW sold so little, how badly WEA marketed it, etc.- here are some numbers.
Thanks for posting these, sweetie... I love this kind of stuff. (I'm a dork)
:xoxo:


Say You Will- 842,955

Madonna's American Life has scanned 653,238 as of last week.
VERY interesting. I love Madonna too, but it's cool to see that 'Say You Will' has been more popular than 'American Life,' even if only "slightly" so. :)

[dissention]

It's easy to listen to a song we ALREADY love and adore, for the one millionth time... than it is to find an appreciation for something new that doesn't manage to live up to our expectations.

You tend to like things that are surprising to you... and that's cool. We all want to be surprised and impressed in some way. Stevie's material doesn't surprise you anymore, because... in my opinion... you've grown bored with her style. You want her to take left turns, and you seem frustrated that she doesn't... so your enthusiasm and interest in her music past a particular era in her career, has waned.

You're absolutely spot on with many of those observations, but Stevie's lack of experimentation and failure to go beyond a certain point isn't necessarily what disappoints. What disappoints me is the fact that all of her new material is mostly the rehashing of her past work. None of it is original and it sounds like the same thing she did twenty years ago. It would be fine if she continued to put out the same old thing as long as it was good, but she's become deathly dull in her old age. I've no interest in hearing her sing about Lindsey for the millionth time, just as I really have no interest in hearing fifteen year old demos brought out of the vaults. It just all reeks of laziness and a lack of creativity. For someone who got their inspiration "back," she certainly hasn't shown it to the rest of the world, save a few fabulous songs here and there.

Stevie is never going to go ape**** like Lindsey and record something along the lines of Red Rover. She is never going to embrace a new type of music like David Bowie and make an entire album based on that one type of music. She is never going to write avant garde jazz numbers or record Indian folk songs like Debbie Harry. And I don't expect her to. All I expect is that she put out quality material and at least show us that she's capable of coming up with something new instead of just rehashing things over and over. And actually utilizing what's left of her upper register these days wouldn't hurt, either.

Stevie is artistically stagnant to me. She's not continuing on with a successful formula, she's pillaging that formula over and over and over. If that makes me a bad fan, so be it. :laugh:

Smart ass. :laugh: :xoxo:
What I meant was that the multiple years (and sometimes decades) between Lindsey's releases, highlights the contrast between the stylistic tones of his albums.
If he had released more albums during the in-between years, then the music may have seemed far less diverse overall.

Not necessarily. We can't begin to assume what sounds his non-existant albums would have contained.

Lindsey continues to thrill you now, but I'd be interested in seeing how you still feel about him in another ten or twenty years, if he doesn't take any additional left-turns in his style or approach in a way that you find exciting or intriguing.

He hasn't failed me in the past fifteen years, so I doubt he will anytime soon. And Lindsey seems the type of artist who won't be happy with his work unless it has some redeeming value in the way of originality and substance. Stevie, bless her heart, writes soemthing illogical and nonsensical in her journal and proclaims it poetry. Lindsey, on the other hand, slaves over his work until it's what he considers perfect. Sometimes he fails, sometimes he succeeds, but even when he fails I can see the blood, sweat and tears that went into making it.

Well, that's why I keep the debates going, dissy... we have to have SOMETHING to talk about around here! But shhhh... that's just between you and me. ;) :xoxo:

And I always thought it was so you could try to get the last word in. ;)

[Serrart]

Okay, total different perspective, on this too (and I'm referring mostly to their solo albums... obviously JMHO). I love surprises, creative artists who can renew themselves, but I'm not a huge Lindsey fan, I like him, but he definitely isn't daily in my playlist. It's mostly because I see the experimental strength of his work, but find it rather clueless. The academic value of some of his songs is high and I appreciate it, but for the rest he takes already made paths and can't go fast or far enough for me. Said that, great musician, great producer, no doubt.

About Stevie, Dissention sees her actual work as a 'pale shadow', I see it as another intriguing step on a very solid and nuanced creative path that is full of different seasons. Personally i love them all but I'm more intrigued by the twist that her songwriting had from 1987. Her songs on Tango in The Night are challenges to the listener, and she knew it, but in them there was a striking strength and a remarkable emotional violence, especially in Joan Of Arc (that I would have loved to have on the album) and When I See You Again. After the klonopin years those qualities started to rise again both in her performances and works, enriched by a different glance to the world. I mean, Trouble in Shangri La? Illume? Destiny Rules? No more fairies but life as it is? And vehiculated by different styles, that she doesn't try to mellow to please at all costs her long time fans who are more attached to her seventies/ early eighties works? That offers a great source of inspiration and emotions to me. :nod: :cool:

Romy

[macfan 57]

By the way, just in case anyone's interested in the actual numbers instead of rehashing the same old tired argument about why SYW sold so little, how badly WEA marketed it, etc.- here are some numbers.

Live in Boston- 58,632
Say You Will- 842,955
VBoFM- 1,002,302 (and yes- that's SS numbers, so divide it in half)
The Dance- 3,879,388
Christine McVie/In the Meantime- 19,944 (U.S. only)

All of those records with the exception of the Dance are scanning a couple hundred copies a week. The Dance still sells anywhere betwen 2K-4K on average a week.

Mick's album is so inconsequential that I'm too lazy to log into Soundscan to check the numbers.

And long ago in this thread, someone compared it to Madonna's American Life- American Life has scanned 653,238 as of last week.

Thanks for the numbers. I think soundscan figures are in units sold. So the VBOFM number is the total number of units sold. You don't have to divide them in half. You just have to double that 1 million figure for the RIAA certification. It should be certified multi-platinum sometime this year.

[Johnny Stew]

You're absolutely spot on with many of those observations, but Stevie's lack of experimentation and failure to go beyond a certain point isn't necessarily what disappoints. What disappoints me is the fact that all of her new material is mostly the rehashing of her past work. None of it is original and it sounds like the same thing she did twenty years ago. It would be fine if she continued to put out the same old thing as long as it was good, but she's become deathly dull in her old age. I've no interest in hearing her sing about Lindsey for the millionth time, just as I really have no interest in hearing fifteen year old demos brought out of the vaults. It just all reeks of laziness and a lack of creativity. For someone who got their inspiration "back," she certainly hasn't shown it to the rest of the world, save a few fabulous songs here and there.
We're just not going to see eye-to-eye on this. Of course, that's no surprise!

For me, her current work is far more level-headed and straightforward than her earlier writing. Her earlier writings were gauzier and more "mystical" (for lack of a better word). Her newer writings, to me, sound like the works of a woman who is far more grounded and has matured as a person and in her philosophy on life.

It doesn't sound at all like a "rehashing" to me... it sounds like a progression. You can't rehash something, when you're coming at it from a different perspective. When she revisits a past topic (Lindsey, for example), it's done in a way that reflects where she is emotionally, today.

Also, I'm not at all one of those people who thinks EVERY song is about Lindsey. Aside from the ones Stevie herself has noted were about him ("Thrown Down," and partially "Trouble In Shangri-La" and "Fall From Grace"), I just don't see it.
So I haven't gotten sick of her singing about Lindsey "for the millionth time," because I don't automatically assume that when she's singing about a relationship that didn't work out, that she therefore must be singing about Lindsey.

Every single one of her romantic relationships didn't work out in one regard or another, so she has a whole series of men she might be singing about.


We can't begin to assume what sounds (Lindsey's) non-existant albums would have contained.

Using 'Tusk,' 'Mirage' and 'Tango In The Night' as middle ground for his three solo albums, the solo tracks sound much less diverse.
What he did on 'Tusk' easily leads into his 'L&O' songs, which easily lead into his 'Mirage' tunes.
'Go Insane' sounds, to my ears, like a natural progression from his 'Mirage' approach, and leads into his material on 'Tango.'
Many of the aspects of 'Tango' then foreshadow the direction he took with 'Out Of The Cradle.'

So if we had had 12 similar-sounding songs from him between each of those three solo albums, as opposed to just 5, then the "sameness" would have seemed even more profound, IMO.


Stevie, bless her heart, writes soemthing illogical and nonsensical in her journal and proclaims it poetry. Lindsey, on the other hand, slaves over his work until it's what he considers perfect. Sometimes he fails, sometimes he succeeds, but even when he fails I can see the blood, sweat and tears that went into making it.
It makes sense to her, and isn't that all it really needs to do? We criticize her for making commercial (ie: relatable) music, and then blast her for not writing things we can relate to. :confused:

So, which shall it be? Lyrics that are relatable across the board, so everyone can love them... or lyrics written from the heart, and staying true to the writer's artistic impulses -- even if we can't always relate or immediately understand what the hell she's talking about?


And I always thought it was so you could try to get the last word in. ;)
:laugh: Well, there's definitely that, too! ;) But as long as I know I'm not the only one who always tries to get the last word in, then I'm safe. :xoxo:

[dissention]

'Go Insane' sounds, to my ears, like a natural progression from his 'Mirage' approach

I won't touch anything else from your post because we'll just be here all night, but this part struck me dumb. This just makes no sense to me and we must be listening to completely different albums. His work on Mirage and Go Insane couldn't be more different if he tried. I mean, c'mon, Johnny. It sounds like a natural progression to go from Oh Diane and Empire State to Play In the Rain and D.W. Suite? From Can't Go Back to Go Insane? Ho****. :laugh:

[Jyqm]

I won't touch anything else from your post because we'll just be here all night, but this part struck me dumb. This just makes no sense to me and we must be listening to completely different albums. His work on Mirage and Go Insane couldn't be more different if he tried. I mean, c'mon, Johnny. It sounds like a natural progression to go from Oh Diane and Empire State to Play In the Rain and D.W. Suite? From Can't Go Back to Go Insane? Ho****. :laugh:

I actually agree with Mr. Stew, I can pretty easily see the progression from Mirage to Go Insane. When you're listening for it and thinking about it, though, you have to realize that Mirage is somethign of a regression, as the rest of the band forced him to rein in his zanier impulses and take more of a Rumours approach to the songs.

[dissention]

I actually agree with Mr. Stew, I can pretty easily see the progression from Mirage to Go Insane. When you're listening for it and thinking about it, though, you have to realize that Mirage is somethign of a regression, as the rest of the band forced him to rein in his zanier impulses and take more of a Rumours approach to the songs.

I agree in the sense that it was a natural progression for him to go completely off-the-wall following the mediocrity the band forced him to record for Mirage, but I thought Stew meant a musical progression. If that's what he meant, I fail to see it. :)

[Johnny Stew]

I won't touch anything else from your post because we'll just be here all night, but this part struck me dumb. This just makes no sense to me and we must be listening to completely different albums. His work on Mirage and Go Insane couldn't be more different if he tried. I mean, c'mon, Johnny. It sounds like a natural progression to go from Oh Diane and Empire State to Play In the Rain and D.W. Suite? From Can't Go Back to Go Insane? Ho****. :laugh:

I actually agree with Mr. Stew, I can pretty easily see the progression from Mirage to Go Insane.

Thanks, Jyqm. :) :wavey:

I definitely hear a natural progression from "Eyes Of The World" and "Empire State" (and even aspects of "Book Of Love") to the likes of "Go Insane," "Loving Cup," and "Slow Dancing."

Obviously some of his 'Mirage' tracks owe more to the 'Law And Order' approach than to the 'Go Insane' approach... but they all work together as a bridge between those two solo albums.

At least to my ears... and to Jyqm's! ;) :)

[dissention]

At least to my ears... and to Jyqm's! ;) :)

Oh well, We never agree, this instance shouldn't be any different. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

Oh well, We never agree, this instance shouldn't be any different. ;)

:laugh: Man, ain't that the truth! :eek: :laugh:

Never think for a moment though, that I don't love every minute of debating with you.
You keep me on my toes (even if I think you couldn't be more wrong)! ;) :xoxo:

[dissention]

:laugh: Man, ain't that the truth! :eek: :laugh:

Never think for a moment though, that I don't love every minute of debating with you.
You keep me on my toes (even if I think you couldn't be more wrong)! ;) :xoxo:

I love to hear myself talk, so it's just a natural progression for me to type it all for you and I to read. ;)

I think the only thing we've ever agreed on is that Michael is a fabulous song. :eek:

[Johnny Stew]

I love to hear myself talk....
See, we have more in common than one might think! :laugh:

I think the only thing we've ever agreed on is that Michael is a fabulous song. :eek:
Well, that's not really the "only" thing we agree on (sheesh, we can't even agree on what it is we agree on!). :laugh:

That reminds me... I remember seeing your question the other day about whether or not I had bought the Franz CD yet, but I never got a chance to answer it.
Unfortunately I haven't gotten it yet... but I definitely intend to. I asked my 16 year old cousin if she owns it (hoping to bum it off of her for a few weeks), but I was told, "eww, no! I hate them."
So no luck there. :distress:

[dissention]

That reminds me... I remember seeing your question the other day about whether or not I had bought the Franz CD yet, but I never got a chance to answer it.
Unfortunately I haven't gotten it yet... but I definitely intend to. I asked my 16 year old cousin if she owns it (hoping to bum it off of her for a few weeks), but I was told, "eww, no! I hate them."
So no luck there. :distress:

Pffffffft, she's 16, I'm not surprised she has no taste. :p :laugh:

I? Need to get commission checks from those assholes. My efforts alone will make their album go platinum.

[Johnny Stew]

Pffffffft, she's 16, I'm not surprised she has no taste. :p :laugh:
She told me that a couple of her friends like them, but she just can't stand them. Her musical tastes aren't all bad... she listens to a lot of punk. But some of what she listens to, is crap to my ears (for instance, I can't stand singers who scream. And that's not because I'm old! :laugh: I've always hated that).


I? Need to get commission checks from those assholes. My efforts alone will make their album go platinum.
Unfortunately I think you'll see your commission checks from Franz Ferdinand, when I see mine from Fleetwood Mac! :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

I'll pay ya both to quit your arguin' :p ;) :p :laugh:

[dissention]

She told me that a couple of her friends like them, but she just can't stand them. Her musical tastes aren't all bad... she listens to a lot of punk. But some of what she listens to, is crap to my ears (for instance, I can't stand singers who scream. And that's not because I'm old! :laugh: I've always hated that).

Well, I'm a rabid fan so I can't possibly be objective when it comes to the brilliance that is Franz Ferdinand. :laugh: Lawd, I need a new album like I need food and water...

I can't stand that crap where the singers scream constantly. Makes my head hurt. And what they call "punk" these days is so not punk that I want to scream every time someone refers to it as such.

Unfortunately I think you'll see your commission checks from Franz Ferdinand, when I see mine from Fleetwood Mac! :laugh:

Seeing as how I will be stalking them when they hit the road this spring, I'll DEMAND payment for my services. ;)

[dissention]

I'll pay ya both to quit your arguin' :p ;) :p :laugh:

Pay for my hotel (I don't share rooms, sorry, guys! :laugh: ) and a new costume if I go to NOTS and you have a deal.

[amber]

Pay for my hotel (I don't share rooms, sorry, guys! :laugh: ) and a new costume if I go to NOTS and you have a deal.
Oh, sharing rooms would be fun for one night! After NOTS? we'd all be talky and stupid. :laugh: But - if you don't share rooms :rolleyes: you don't share rooms :shrug: God, you sound like me. :rolleyes: Are you sure you're not an only child? :laugh: :laugh: JK - on the few occasions when i get together with people for fun stuff, I like to be around them, cause usually i'm pretty solo in my real life. :)

[dissention]

Oh, sharing rooms would be fun for one night! After NOTS? we'd all be talky and stupid. :laugh: But - if you don't share rooms :rolleyes: you don't share rooms :shrug: God, you sound like me. :rolleyes: Are you sure you're not an only child? :laugh: :laugh: JK - on the few occasions when i get together with people for fun stuff, I like to be around them, cause usually i'm pretty solo in my real life. :)

Sorry, I don't want to share a room with secret sleep-farters or those who snore so loudly they sound like a Mack truck backing into a brick wall. :laugh: And sharing a bathroom with three or four other people? No bloody way! And my clothes would take up half the space in the room. These are New York hotels, after all. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Pay for my hotel (I don't share rooms, sorry, guys! :laugh: ) and a new costume if I go to NOTS and you have a deal.


I think we should share a room - we'd either be married by the end of the weekend or a la Thunderdome - two would enter and one would emerge :laugh:

BTW - does this mean you will wear Stevie drag? :eek:

[amber]

Sorry, I don't want to share a room with secret sleep-farters or those who snore so loudly they sound like a Mack truck backing into a brick wall. :laugh: And sharing a bathroom with three or four other people? No bloody way! And my clothes would take up half the space in the room. These are New York hotels, after all. :laugh:
oh, no, snorers! I don't snore. I don't like to share, either, but for one night, and for a special occasion, and to make it cheaper, I wouldn't care. Uh, how much clothes do you need for 2, or 1 days? And as for secret sleep farters? well, you've probably done it, too, but the point is, you probably won't hear because you'll be asleep! Hello? :laugh: When you have girls over, do you kick them out when you're done? In case they fart or snore? :confused: :laugh: :laugh:

[dissention]

BTW - does this mean you will wear Stevie drag? :eek:

If I can make it, you can bet your ass. I've never done Stevie, only Debbie, so I'd have to go shopping. ;)

[strandinthewind]

If I can make it, you can bet your ass. I've never done Stevie, only Debbie, so I'd have to go shopping. ;)

OH LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just a suggestion - Payless has GREAT shoes for cheap!!!!!

[amber]

OH LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just a suggestion - Payless has GREAT shoes for cheap!!!!!
I will take that suggestion, thank you! I really, really want those burgundy/purplish boots, though - probably never find them... :( It's like you have to wear boots to "do" stevie, but i'm so torn between calf muscles and boots... :( :rolleyes: :lol:
Amber "I'm so vain" G.

[dissention]

OH LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just a suggestion - Payless has GREAT shoes for cheap!!!!!

I remember your "Black beauties have big feet" story. :laugh:

Nah, I alread have knee-high platforms. But they're not black. I can't remember if they're pink or red or what, I haven't worn them in a long while.

[strandinthewind]

I will take that suggestion, thank you! I really, really want those burgundy/purplish boots, though - probably never find them... :( It's like you have to wear boots to "do" stevie, but i'm so torn between calf muscles and boots... :( :rolleyes: :lol:
Amber "I'm so vain" G.

google platform knee high boot - you will see a bunch of sites. Lisa's Shoes looks pretty good.

[strandinthewind]

I remember your "Black beauties have big feet" story. :laugh:

I have GOT to call her. She is a load of laughs and one of the few people who just tells it like it is - which is refreshing even when we disagree!!!!!!!!!

[amber]

google platform knee high boot - you will see a bunch of sites. Lisa's Shoes looks pretty good.
ooo, Spanks! :wavey: