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GypsySorcerer
01-20-2005, 01:31 PM
No, not our Hillary.... ;) Hillary Clinton. She's preparing for 2008, definitely.

Hillary (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_urges_use_of_faith_based_initiatives?mode=PF)

dissention
01-20-2005, 01:36 PM
...and the run to the middle is ongoing, I see.

She can run all she wants, but until she runs on a platform that represents her party and not the Republican party of thirty years ago, I won't cast a vote for her. I hope Nader's around in '08 just to spoil it for her, if that's the case. Then maybe the Democrats will see that they have a real loser formula.

SuzeQuze
01-20-2005, 01:36 PM
No, not our Hillary.... ;) Hillary Clinton. She's preparing for 2008, definitely.

Hillary (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_urges_use_of_faith_based_initiatives?mode=PF)

I particularly like this quote: "There is no contradiction between support for faith-based initiatives and upholding our constitutional principles," said Clinton, a New York Democrat who often is mentioned as a possible presidential candidate in 2008." and I look into her elaboration on this issue.

DrummerDeanna
01-20-2005, 01:39 PM
...and the run to the middle is ongoing, I see.

She can run all she wants, but until she runs on a platform that represents her party and not the Republican party of thirty years ago, I won't cast a vote for her. I hope Nader's around in '08 just to spoil it for her, if that's the case. Then maybe the Democrats will see that they have a real loser formula.

:nod: Running Hillary will be a sure way to blow it once again in 2008...

I just saw her this week - and actually asked her a question lol - she's a tad icy...

dissention
01-20-2005, 01:41 PM
:nod: Running Hillary will be a sure way to blow it once again in 2008...

I just saw her this week - and actually asked her a question lol - she's a tad icy...

:laugh: I like Hillary, but she's the Snow Queen come alive.

estranged4life
01-20-2005, 01:49 PM
...and the run to the middle is ongoing, I see.

She can run all she wants, but until she runs on a platform that represents her party and not the Republican party of thirty years ago, I won't cast a vote for her. I hope Nader's around in '08 just to spoil it for her, if that's the case. Then maybe the Democrats will see that they have a real loser formula.

maybe I should run in 2008 on the Independent ticket...Time to weigh my options :rolleyes:

Brian "Bootlegs for ALL in 2008" j.

SuzeQuze
01-20-2005, 01:58 PM
maybe I should run in 2008 on the Independent ticket...Time to weigh my options :rolleyes:

Brian "Bootlegs for ALL in 2008" j.

Brian, your posts always crack me up! :laugh: Thanks in advance for the bootlegs, man! :wavey:

GateandGarden
01-20-2005, 02:24 PM
No, not our Hillary.... ;) Hillary Clinton. She's preparing for 2008, definitely.I tend to get confused when I see thread titles like that, but this time I figured it was about her and not me. :laugh:

Anyway, that article is discouraging. :distress:

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 02:29 PM
I particularly like this quote: "There is no contradiction between support for faith-based initiatives and upholding our constitutional principles," said Clinton, a New York Democrat who often is mentioned as a possible presidential candidate in 2008." and I look into her elaboration on this issue.

There is none as long as the govt. supports all faith based initiatives and, perhaps, they do not preach their faith (although if they all do it, how is that an esblishment of religion? ) - If they support all, then they are not going to violate the First Amendment's sole prohibition, which is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ."

Again, this will mean the government must give the Sons of Satan money for their annual goat head soup to feed the poor - a situation that the far religious right will never tolerate.

Personally, I have no problem with the churches (all of them - not just the Christians) taking over charitable work as they do it FAR better than the Feds ever could hope to.

I know that is unpopular and in many ways it grates on me to see an a$$hole like Jerry Falwell get one dime of taxpayer's money - but I cannot change the wording of the Const. to prohibit it. Sadly, I also think the potential for financial abuse of this system GROSSLY outweighs the good it may or may not bring - if you do not believe me - just look at the medicare fraud out there today :shrug:

Merf
01-20-2005, 02:33 PM
Because I am so terrified at the prospect of Jeb Bush running for president in 2008 and him actually WINNING, I just cannot support Hillary. I think she's a very strong woman but she would be a death sentence for the democratic party in 2008. She wouldn't stand a chance.

GypsySorcerer
01-20-2005, 03:46 PM
I agree that running her in 2008 is just handing the election over to the Republicans. But I can't see Jeb winning, either.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 03:52 PM
I agree that running her in 2008 is just handing the election over to the Republicans. But I can't see Jeb winning, either.

Well, here is a tidbit from the net - this is one sided - perhaps others will post the otherside or I will if I get around to it :cool:

As the third largest newspaper in the Tampa Bay area, Weekly Planet offers readers a valuable alternative to the two mainstream daily publications. Our award-winning news stories are rooted in a commitment to the community and an independent perspective that puts the greater interests of that community first..."

10 Reasons Not to Vote for Jeb Bush in 2002
BY ROCHELLE RENFORD / http://www.weeklyplanet.com/current/cover.html


Make no mistake. Americans do love their royalty. Our founding fathers may have given the finger to the royals in England, but generations later the monarchy still rules. The lack of an official king and queen has only allowed the American public to anoint several unofficial royal lines instead. As much as Americans extol the virtues of hard work, most of us probably would have preferred the silver spoon route. Work is fine, but really, wasn't leaving the womb hard enough? For some lucky sperm, the birth canal is the last tight spot they'll have to find their way out of. Like the Kennedys and the Rockefellers, the Bush clan is a monument to unearned privilege and power, but they've distinguished themselves with their capacity for denial.

Gov. Jeb Bush has said that after college, he was on his own financially and made his own way through his own hard work. So what if that "hard work" was for his father's campaign, and for corporations run by his father's friends. While working at IntrAmerica Investments, a real estate development firm owned by Bush Sr. supporter Armando Codina, Bush's salary jumped six figures in about six years. He has said his family name wasn't an advantage but spent much of his career wooing clients who wanted to get next to his family. He was cut in on investment deals, even though he didn't actually have any cash to invest, and he walked away from scandals involving attempts to defraud the U.S. government, claiming that he wasn't a fraud but a dupe. Only he knows which is true, but it's clear that if he hadn't used his family connections to do favors for his wealthy comrades, some of the scandals wouldn't have happened. When developer Hiram Martinez Jr. requested $18-million in federal loan insurance for an apartment development in 1985, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development questioned its land value and delayed the request. Rather than allow HUD to do its job, Bush wrote a letter to the U.S. agency's undersecretary on Martinez's behalf. The loan was approved, the land values were inflated and Martinez got six years in prison on fraud charges. Bush has amnesia about the letter. Later he made a call to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services to help another associate looking to get out of following some pesky federal rules.

Bush denies that he received special treatment in both of those incidents, but any citizen who's dealt with either agency knows that's not true. It's pretty damn special to have a top manager take your call, instead of getting a clerk who transfers your call or tells you to fill out forms.

It's his denial that makes Bush an ineffective governor. It's not possible to see why minorities would need affirmative action when you refuse to see that alumni and legacy admissions are a form of affirmative action too. It's easy to focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation when you've never had to be accountable for your own questionable dealings. Recognizing every citizen's right to vote is harder when you really believe that the only rights that count are yours.

Bush has had four years to prove that he's more than just the product of the lucky sperm club instead he's proven that ego and privilege are a costly mix. Bush may have been "to the manor born," but the governor's mansion belongs to the people. Here are 10 reasons to kick him out.

1. He's Not Stupid, But He Thinks Voters Are

Much has been made of a reporter catching Gov. Jeb Bush showing one face in public and another when he thinks he's safely in his inner sanctum. This is called politics, and it's nothing new. But Bush wasn't just strategizing or playing politics when he made light of a serious issue -- a missing human being that was in the state's care. Referring to gossip about the ongoing criminal investigation as "juicy" isn't a misstatement; it's a character flaw. Telling Republican legislatures that the two women arrested in the case may be lesbians because one referred to the other as the "wife" is irrelevant information if your real interest is finding a child. Bush should be completely torn up about the hundreds of missing children that disappeared on his watch, both in public and in private. How can he be expected to take the task of fixing the system seriously if he doesn't sincerely care about the tragic consequences of doing nothing?

People who make racist or homophobic comments only in private are still racists and homophobes; there's no such thing as a part-time bigot. The Nixon tapes have shown that private bigotry becomes public policy, whether voters know it or not. Bush may genuinely feel that the class-size amendment is a mistake and he's entitled to make his case. But his saying that he's concocting "devious" plans to undermine it if it passes shows a genuine disregard for democracy.

He is nothing more than a state employee, when his citizen employers give him a task, his job is to get it done.

Bush isn't worried about his comments because he's secure in his false sense of superiority. He expects voters to disregard his own words and instead believe the spin that he didn't really mean any of it. Voters who believe him had better hope the swampland that he tries to sell when reelected isn't the Everglades.

2. Faking It as the 'Education Governor'

What exactly makes an "education governor"?

A willingness to invest money in education would be one factor. Bush likes to say that, under his leadership, education funding has increased by 27percent. This must be an example of that "fuzzy math" his brother derided during his presidential campaign. According to an analysis by the St. Petersburg Times, Bush has increased education funding by less than one-quarter of 1 percent after accounting for inflation and 168,400 new students.

Bush didn't deny that the Times had their facts straight. Instead he gave this frighteningly asinine response: "I've not said that it's big or small, just that it's an increase."

The math may be fuzzy but the picture isn't. Just look around. Counties all over the state, including Pinellas and Hillsborough, have had to discontinue summer school and remedial programs.

Bush has resisted calls for smaller classes, and teachers are fleeing the state in search of better pay. Kids still crowd into classrooms with 30 kids or more and attend classes in trailers, while the state's education ranking continues to drop.

Bush's sacred "grading" of schools perpetuates unequal opportunity. It rewards rich schools, whose students fare better on the Florida Comprehensive Achievement Test (FCAT), than students from poor schools. Bush gives away vouchers to let kids leave failing schools instead so he doesn't have to accept the responsibility to fix them. What about the schools that earn Cs and Ds? They're on their own.

The Florida Education Association, the largest group of public school teachers in the state, has pasted a big bull's eye on Bush's hide. Bush wants voters to believe that it's just because unions hate Republicans. Maybe. But at this point the union would likely embrace Pat Buchanan if he came to the state bearing education funding.

The university system hasn't escaped molestation by Bush, either. Bush has done away with the state Board of Regents and put Republican businessmen on the local boards of trustees. The old Board of Regents was political too, but at least there was a chancellor fighting to implement a statewide strategy. It's all in the hands of local empire-builders now.

3. One Florida, Divisible (With Higher Education for Some)

"Kick their asses out."

That's what Jeb Bush instructed his office security to do when hundreds of students flooded the state Capitol to protest his repeal of affirmative action in higher education and government contracting.

What he meant by initiating his One Florida plan in the first place seemed to be, "don't let their asses in."

Bush said his plan would dramatically increase minority and female enrollment in state colleges and universities. It didn't. He claimed it would do the same for minority businesses vying for state contracts. It didn't.

Where did he get this idea? Well, we don't know.

In the Bush kingdom, explanation and consultation aren't necessary. King Bush instituted his One Florida plan by executive order, bypassing the rigmarole of public input and tiresome legislative debates. Public hearings happened after the plan was revealed, mostly to mollify outspoken politicians like state Sen. Lesley "Les" Miller Jr. (D-Tampa).

Bush didn't deign to attend those hearings, though, since his mind was made up.

To him, hundreds of black students marching in Tallahassee proved how those ungrateful blacks didn't appreciate that the governor was only trying to do what was best for them.

The governor has numbers that show an infinitesimal increase in minority enrollment, and his opponents have numbers that show an infinitesimal decrease in minority enrollment. Nobody disputes that a dramatic change hasn't taken place. In other words, Bush's plan has done virtually nothing to improve higher-education opportunities for blacks.

It appears that the only affirmative action Bush believes in is the kind that gets C students from prominent families into Yale.

4. Presidential Election 2000: Crime Pays

Democrats, Republicans, independents, Greens -- insert the name of a party here. No matter what the political affiliation, every Floridian should still be seething over the 2000 presidential election.

Some countries have oil. Some have coffee. We have the right the vote. It is our greatest resource. When it gets taken away, nothing's left. Don't be fooled by the absence of Justice Department commandos swooping in to arrest Gov. Bush. His handling of the 2000 presidential election was criminal.

The governor broke the law in August 2000 when he ordered 40,000 felons who had served their time and had their civil rights restored in other states to apply for his permission to vote in Florida. In his book, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, author Greg Palast quotes Tawana Hayes, a clerk who processes clemency requests in the governor's office, as saying the ordeal is "sometimes worse than breaking a leg." It can take months and sometimes years.

Two years ago, it all came down to whether Bush felt like giving American citizens a right that they had all along.

Two state court decisions and the National Voter Registration Act say Bush broke the law. He proved he was aware of his crime when he tried to hide his order in November after a post-election U.S. Civil Rights Commission investigation was underway.

He will never be arrested, but this flagrant denial of the most fundamental constitutional right is alone sufficient reason not to reelect him.

Prior to Bush's 1998 election, the Republican Legislature decided to do what no other state in the union has done: turn over the very serious job of removing ineligible voters from voting rolls to a private corporation. Not just any corporation, but one with so many Republican connections a black widow would be impressed with the web.

Although the company was being paid millions, supposedly for their unique ability to verify and cross- reference the data, they ****ed up the purge by failing to verify and cross-reference the data. They did this with Secretary of State Katherine Harris' blessing and Bush's knowledge.

Bush did "recuse" himself from the election recount process to avoid a conflict of interest, but he didn't insist that Katherine Harris do the same. How is it not a conflict of interest for the person in charge of ensuring the state's free and open election process also to serve as the state coordinator of a presidential candidate's campaign?

5. Prisons Over People

Bush is not big on second chances, even if they save the state money. Prisoners and addicts who are able to further their education and get adequate drug treatment return to prison at a far lower rate than those who don't. Instead of providing programs that decrease prison spending by keeping prisoners out of jail, Bush would rather spend money by making room for those prisoners who come back.

Unless the prisoner in question is his daughter.

When Noelle Bush got busted trying to score Xanax with a bogus prescription, she handed her dad a plum opportunity to do what other parents have done when something horrible happens to their kids -- turn a private tragedy into a public crusade. He could have publicly acknowledged that the answer to drug addiction is treatment rather than prison -- whether the addict is his kid or someone else's. He could have led the way to a more enlightened drug policy that builds people up instead of making it necessary to build more prisons.

He missed that chance.

While Bush did say that treatment was difficult and necessary, he didn't advocate more funds to pay for it. While Noelle took advantage of a program that allows nonviolent drug offenders to opt for treatment rather than jail time, Bush eliminated $13-million in drug treatment funding to balance the budget. He later restored $9-million, but the loss was still significant.

The drug courts currently can see only half the addicts who want to take advantage of the treatment option. Those who do appear before the court often have to find -- and pay for -- a rehab facility themselves.

If Noelle makes it through rehab, she'll emerge with a clean criminal record, even though she spent three days in jail for snagging pills from a nurse and later got caught with crack cocaine in her shoe. The rehab residents wanted to see her arrested, but the treatment staff refused to file a report. When a judge said that treatment staff could not be forced to testify against Noelle, Daddy Bush lauded the ruling. But don't expect Governor Bush to sympathize with the constitutional rights of future defendants in Florida, where a first-time arrest for crack possession can result in a 10-year prison sentence.

Jeb Bush wants compassion and prayer for his kid, but he doesn't care what happens to anybody else's. He's a staunch opponent of the Right to Treatment initiative, which supporters want to put before voters as a constitutional amendment requiring the state to find treatment for all who qualify.

To be fair, this isn't entirely his fault. Voters like politicians who appear to be tough on crime, even if that tough attitude isn't actually making them safer. But Bush's skills extend to pandering, not political courage. It takes real leadership to tell the public the truth: Denying prisoners the opportunity to become productive citizens isn't making the public any safer. He doesn't have the skills to lead Florida in that direction.

6. DCF Shouldn't Stand for 'Dead Child Found'

When Bush ran for governor four years ago, children who were wards of the state were being abused, lost and killed. Caseworkers were handling too many files, being paid too little and leaving their jobs too often.

Bush promised to fix the system. Four years later, Bush is running for re-election. Children are still being abused, lost and killed. Caseworkers are still overworked and underpaid. But now they're scapegoats too.

That's not the kind of change we were looking for. After his election, Bush promptly forgot about the kids, until one of them turned up dead. He didn't raise the salaries of caseworkers, nor did he hire more. He mostly did nothing until Rilya Wilson, a 4-year-old entrusted to the state, became national news when it turned out she had been missing for a year and no one at the Department of Children and Families knew it.

When department Secretary Kathleen Kearney resigned, Bush didn't mount a search or take much time before he named her successor: ultraconservative Jerry Regier.

Controversy about Regier's religious views ensued immediately, but what about his record as the head of the Department of Human Services in Oklahoma?

Oklahoma is even worse than Florida in protecting children in state care, according to federal statistics. While 5 percent of kids in Florida return to foster care within 12 months of being returned to their families, 17 percent return within that time in Oklahoma. While child abuse reports are investigated in an average of 14 hours in Florida, it takes an average of 377 hours for investigators in Oklahoma to respond.

OK, fewer victims of child abuse actually die in Oklahoma than they do in Florida. In 1999, Oklahoma reported 47 dead while Florida reported 57. That's hardly a distinction to be proud of.

Regier claims he wasn't directly responsible for abused children in Oklahoma and says the state's abysmal record can't be blamed on him.

At best, he's inexperienced. At worst, he's incompetent.

Regier does seem to listen to reason, though. Regier recently called for a budget increase to pay for more background checks for caseworkers, better pay and training. Why didn't Bush think of that?

7. Democracy: It's Not Optional

Nowhere is Bush's quest for absolute dominance more obvious than in his repeated success at seizing control of the judicial branch of government. It wasn't enough that the governor made the appointments. Bush insisted on controlling the entire membership of the nominating commissions that submitted to him the short list of qualified candidates. The commissions used to include people appointed by the Florida Bar, whose members are most familiar with the judgeship applicants. Now, they're all Bush appointees, with a distinctly rightward tilt.

He also took control of judgeships that used to be elected. Florida voters soundly rejected a proposed constitutional amendment to have all judges appointed. But when the Legislature created 18 new trial court judgeships in last year, Bush lobbied for the right to appoint them instead of making them elected positions. The eventual deal let him choose nine and let citizens vote on the other nine. Bush also seized more direct control of universities. He and the Legislature dissolved the state Board of Regents, then packed the new local boards of trustees with Republican supporters and conservative businessmen. University presidents who criticized the move shut up and fell in line behind their new bosses.

While he's seizing more and more authority, he's less and less interested in anyone who disagrees with him.

That basically excludes anyone who's not rich, white and conservative. Unless it's an election year.

In 1998, Bush visited farm workers in Immokalee and promised that, as governor, he would help them to get the pay and rights that they deserved. He's refused to talk to them since.

Bush is so hostile to the ideals of democracy that he tried to choose his Democratic opponent in November's election, running anti-Bill McBride TV advertisements during the primary.

With four more years in office, our self-appointed monarch may need advice from arch-nemesis Fidel Castro on how to keep the masses at bay.

8. Privatization: If It Ain't Broke, Give It Time Welcome to Florida Inc.

With CEO Bush at the helm, there's little need for government workers here. We can get rid of those pesky state employees with their health insurance and job security and all that liberal pap.

According to the Department of Labor statistics, Bush has rid the state of more than 2,000 jobs and eliminated more than 10,000 government positions, farming some of their functions out to the private sector. Not all of the 10,000 jobs were filled and some of the employees in positions that were eliminated found other jobs in state government. They'd better be careful among the departments that were eliminated completely was the Division of Safety.

Then there's the matter of paying corporate taxes. While the rest of the country is aghast at business corruption and creative accounting procedures, Bush still has faith in his corporate comrades. Bush wants to use corporations' own audits as the basis for corporate taxes -- yes, the same audits that gave us Enron, Tyco and the rest. Hey, it will save the state money. The Department of Children and Families is one agency that clearly needs more openness and oversight, but instead Bush is entrusting some of its duties to the private sector. Charter schools run by corporations are flourishing in Florida and they don't have to succumb to the school grading system that Bush claims is so vital in keeping schools accountable.

9. The Environment: While We Still Have One

Bush likes to do the environmental two-step. He takes one step forward, then two steps back.

He supports having a fund to buy unspoiled land, but then he uses that money as a rainy day fund for budget emergencies.

He claims he really wants to rehabilitate the Everglades, but he made it harder for environmental groups to challenge developers who want to build on sensitive land. To challenge a permit, a group must now live in the area being developed, have at least 20 members and be in existence for at least a year.

Since groups often form around individual development projects and developers can't be counted on to alert citizens of their plans to destroy the environment, this will equate to a gag order on whiners who insist on heading outdoors instead of going to the mall.

The governor seemed willing to take on his brother over allowing oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, but did he really have a choice? Not much in a state that relies on the tourism industry and beaches that, while not unspoiled, are at least free of oil slicks.

The problem with Bush's record on environmental issues is not just that it's inconsistent, but that it's clearly based on political motivation and not a real appreciation for Florida's ecosystem. Would anyone who really cared about the environment even consider injecting untreated wastewater into Florida's aquifer? The idea would have endangered the environment and put the state's water supply at risk of contamination, but Bush is still thinking about it anyway. He's willing to consider all ideas concerning water issues, he said, and the injection scheme is still on the table. Of course controlling growth is another way to address water concerns, but Bush doesn't feel that that's an idea worth mulling over. The governor seems to feel that protecting the environment is fine as long it doesn't mean actually making sacrifices.

10. Taxes: Just Another Way to Keep the Rich Man Down

Senate President John McKay (R-Bradenton) tried to do one good deed as term limits ended his political career: institute tax reform.

Unfortunately, Bush has neither reached the edge of the term limit cliff, nor is he inclined to do one good deed.

What would have been ballot Amendment Five sought to create a legislative committee that could do away with individual sales tax exemptions and would have resulted in billions in revenue for the state. The committee would evaluate each exemption and decide whether it should stay or go. If they decided it should go, the exemption would have been yanked right away, but the Legislature still would have had two years to overturn the decision.

Of course, the industries that saw their tax-exempt status in peril, like the accountants, lawyers and Realtors, rallied against the amendment, and Bush rallied right along with them.

In a touching display of concern for voters, Bush claimed that the amendment's wording was too confusing. Of course instead of killing it, he could have tried to clarify it, as he did with the class-size amendment. Except instead of a price tag, voters would have seen an estimated windfall printed next to the amendment's worded explanation. That would have made the amendment abundantly clear.

Of course in spite of his statements to the contrary, Bush is completely aware of the budget crisis the state is facing. Even TaxWatch, the conservative, corporate-backed "think tank" is ready to concede that some of those tax exemptions may have to go. Florida has spent too many years funding recurring programs with funds that don't recur. A new revenue stream generated by yanking some tax- exemptions is a reality that Bush wants to pretend he can avoid till just after the election. What he'll really do is blame cutting tax-exemptions on the class-size amendment and all of those citizens who voted for it. More of that Bush leadership.

But not if he's gone.

Contact staff writer Rochelle Renford at [email protected] or call her at 813-248- 8888, ext. 163.

GypsySorcerer
01-20-2005, 03:58 PM
Jason, thanks for posting. I believe you do win the "Article Finder" award. :laugh:

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 04:00 PM
Jason, thanks for posting. I believe you do win the "Article Finder" award. :laugh:

Well, considering I own stock in Google - I figure I ought to use it :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

BTW - for Jeb's side of the story - her is his site http://www.jeb.org/

Finally, wasn't his wife involved in something illegal - maybe bringing illegal items into the country? I cannot remember. If she was not, my bad :cool:

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:19 PM
No, not our Hillary.... ;) Hillary Clinton. She's preparing for 2008, definitely.

Hillary (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_urges_use_of_faith_based_initiatives?mode=PF)

Well, we might as well get it over with. :shrug: I like Hilly and all but playing the middle ain't going to win.
Personally, I'd like to urge Barbara Boxer to run. :thumbsup:

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:20 PM
...and the run to the middle is ongoing, I see.

She can run all she wants, but until she runs on a platform that represents her party and not the Republican party of thirty years ago, I won't cast a vote for her.

Well, she did campaign for Goldwater darling. :nod:

dissention
01-20-2005, 05:20 PM
Personally, I'd like to urge Barbara Boxer to run. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

She's the real deal. Especially lately. What a spitfire, I love her.

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:21 PM
I just saw her this week - and actually asked her a question lol - she's a tad icy...

Well, she has reason to distrust the press. :laugh:

dissention
01-20-2005, 05:22 PM
Well, she did campaign for Goldwater darling. :nod:

That's true. :laugh:

I don't know, I like Hillary and all, but I'm so over the Clintons at this point. I'd die happy if I never see one of them again. They pay as much lip service as the Bush's and have run so far into the middle that it's frightening.

dissention
01-20-2005, 05:23 PM
Well, she has reason to distrust the press. :laugh:

Even the crew at This Is Your News? :shocked: She was a real ice princess towards them, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:24 PM
Because I am so terrified at the prospect of Jeb Bush running for president in 2008 and him actually WINNING.

Unless we can turn this thing around, that's in the bag.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 05:26 PM
Well, we might as well get it over with. :shrug: I like Hilly and all but playing the middle ain't going to win.
Personally, I'd like to urge Barbara Boxer to run. :thumbsup:

That would be a bloodbath, though I like her alot.

I think if we look at the last 24 years, we can see that it will take a plain spoken person to get elected. Kerry and Gore's problem was they simply did not appeal to the masses like Clinton, Reagan, and W did and do. Bush I was an anaomly in that he is not of the masses - but I think a good deal of his victory can from the lack of credible D opposition (can you say Dukakis in the tank :laugh: ) and the overall, right or wrong, love of RR. So, the D's need a man with appeal to the common man even if it is a ruse like I think W's common man appeal is and Clinton's common man appeal was and still is - though clearly Clinton came from far humbler beginnings than W.

I think Edwards is and was a GREAT choice. His only hurdle is people tend not to like lawyers and his wife is sick.

Anyway - food for thought!!!

BTW - on edit I point out Jeb B. appeals to the common man (less so than W though) and America or at least half of it voted for W - so . . . . the D's have their work cut out for them.

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:27 PM
Finally, wasn't his wife involved in something illegal - maybe bringing illegal items into the country? I cannot remember.

She forgot to declare about $200,000 in designer clothing and jewelry when she went through customs.
Hey, who can keep track? :shrug: :laugh:

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 05:29 PM
She forgot to declare about $200,000 in designer clothing and jewelry when she went through customs.
Hey, who can keep track? :shrug: :laugh:

That was it. I knew she did something. Oh well, what's a little felony (I think) when you married into pseudo royalty and will one day be its Queen :rolleyes:

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:32 PM
Even the crew at This Is Your News? :shocked: She was a real ice princess towards them, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

No, I think you're right. Which is exactly why she alienates so many people. She's the prototypical type A career woman that scares the **** out of straight white males. Most women can't embrace her success. They resent it and her.

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 05:34 PM
Kerry and Gore's problem was they simply did not appeal to the masses like Clinton, Reagan, and W did and do.

Snap out of it! (imitating Cher here) Gore won. Remember?

dissention
01-20-2005, 05:40 PM
That would be a bloodbath, though I like her alot.

I think if we look at the last 24 years, we can see that it will take a plain spoken person to get elected. Kerry and Gore's problem was they simply did not appeal to the masses like Clinton, Reagan, and W did and do. Bush I was an anaomly in that he is not of the masses - but I think a good deal of his victory can from the lack of credible D opposition (can you say Dukakis in the tank :laugh: ) and the overall, right or wrong, love of RR. So, the D's need a man with appeal to the common man even if it is a ruse like I think W's common man appeal is and Clinton's common man appeal was and still is - though clearly Clinton came from far humbler beginnings than W.

I think Edwards is and was a GREAT choice. His only hurdle is people tend not to like lawyers and his wife is sick.

Anyway - food for thought!!!

BTW - on edit I point out Jeb B. appeals to the common man (less so than W though) and America or at least half of it voted for W - so . . . . the D's have their work cut out for them.

Can I just get this straight?

Are the Democrats supposed to keep nominating middle-of-the-road candidates every four years, fail at getting said middle-of-the-road schmuck elected each time, go back into their little bag of tricks, pull out an even more conservative candidate, and then expect the liberals to support them because they're supposedly "Democrats"? Ugh.

These people are not Democrats, they're Bush-lite. If anything is killing the Democratic party, it's the leaders of that party. They're so out of touch with everything, elections are just exercises in focus groups and internal polling for them. They don't know how to choose candidates, they don't know how to run national campaigns, and if they keep going at the rate they currently are, they are going to be the minority party for many years to come. And that's if they're lucky. A few more nominees like Kerry or Edwards and the Democratic party as we know it will cease to exist. The liberals who keep that joke of a party afloat will jump ship without hesitation and only the fairweather Democrats will remain, of which they're are not many as evidenced by the past two elections. They screwed up royally and continue to do so each day. Pissing off the people who elected you to your current post by exercising your lack of spine with every vote is a no-win formula, and it's even more of a no-win formula when you try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes every fourth November.

This Democratic party is no better than the Republican party. Except the Republican party knows how to get **** done. :woohoo:

dissention
01-20-2005, 05:42 PM
No, I think you're right. Which is exactly why she alienates so many people. She's the prototypical type A career woman that scares the **** out of straight white males. Most women can't embrace her success. They resent it and her.

Agreed. That's exactly why so many people hated Teresa with a passion. :nod:

seeker007nmss
01-20-2005, 05:45 PM
I tend to get confused when I see thread titles like that, but this time I figured it was about her and not me. :laugh:

Anyway, that article is discouraging. :distress:

I think OUR Hillary should run. The GateandGarden Party! :]

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 05:48 PM
Snap out of it! (imitating Cher here) Gore won. Remember?

Well he did and he did not. Yes, he got the popular vote. Yes, that study indicates he also won Florida. But, people were still loathe to vote for him as he seemed elitist. I mean given Bush's inability to speak and the coattails of the Clinton economy - Gore should have been a shoe in even considering the Clinton lies and sex scandals (plural there :laugh: ) - but you are correct Gore got the popular vote and by most accounts won Florida - thus I was wrong on that and readily admit it :wavey:

But, my point is still valid that America loves a plain spoken person who appears common :shrug:

SuzeQuze
01-20-2005, 05:48 PM
Agreed. That's exactly why so many people hated Teresa with a passion. :nod:

Bastards! :mad: :mad:

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 05:51 PM
Can I just get this straight?

Are the Democrats supposed to keep nominating middle-of-the-road candidates every four years, fail at getting said middle-of-the-road schmuck elected each time, go back into their little bag of tricks, pull out an even more conservative candidate, and then expect the liberals to support them because they're supposedly "Democrats"? Ugh.

These people are not Democrats, they're Bush-lite. If anything is killing the Democratic party, it's the leaders of that party. They're so out of touch with everything, elections are just exercises in focus groups and internal polling for them. They don't know how to choose candidates, they don't know how to run national campaigns, and if they keep going at the rate they currently are, they are going to be the minority party for many years to come. And that's if they're lucky. A few more nominees like Kerry or Edwards and the Democratic party as we know it will cease to exist. The liberals who keep that joke of a party afloat will jump ship without hesitation and only the fairweather Democrats will remain, of which they're are not many as evidenced by the past two elections. They screwed up royally and continue to do so each day. Pissing off the people who elected you to your current post by exercising your lack of spine with every vote is a no-win formula, and it's even more of a no-win formula when you try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes every fourth November.

This Democratic party is no better than the Republican party. Except the Republican party knows how to get **** done. :woohoo:

Well, Americans want to elect the lesser of each party - thus the middle of the road. W gives off the appearance of being that - he does so by lying to achieve that goal and by making scapegoats of gay people - pure and simple. But, people like him and they liked Clinton and RR because they were plain spoken. I really do not see how that can be refuted.

I also think that if BB or some other truly liberal person ran, they would get slughtered by Jeb in 08 and would carry their principles all of the way back home in defeat. But, I look at the big picture and recognize politics is about winning in the end - not just the battles on the way :shrug:

Do you honestly think America in its present state will vote for a screaming liberal - I do not think so :cool:

The Tower
01-20-2005, 06:10 PM
Do you honestly think America in its present state will vote for a screaming liberal - I do not think so.

I think so. I think if Howard Dean had been nominated, he would have won. The key to winning is to have a spine, stick to the core values of the party and electrify the electorate.

As Sideshow Bob once said-

"Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may force you to vote Democratic, but deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this: to protect you from yourselves. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run."

The only way to beat the "daddy" factor is for a liberal to be as tough as nails.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 06:14 PM
I think so. I think if Howard Dean had been nominated, he would have won. The key to winning is to have a spine, stick to the core values of the party and electrify the electorate.

As Sideshow Bob once said-

"Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may force you to vote Democratic, but deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this: to protect you from yourselves. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run."

The only way to beat the "daddy" factor is for a liberal to be as tough as nails.

I think Dean would have been crucified and then burned at the stake. AND - mind you I admired him, gave him money (alot of it actually :laugh: ) , and met him :shrug: But, we will never really know :cool:

Edit: I do agree with you, however, that a strong voice is imperative and Dean most assuredly had that. Kerry did not. Although I got what he was saying, to most it looked as if he hedged everything. So, I do agree with you that whoever the candiate is, they have to be strong like Dean

Also - I would have liked for Dean to have won :nod:

SuzeQuze
01-20-2005, 06:15 PM
I think so. I think if Howard Dean had been nominated, he would have won. The key to winning is to have a spine, stick to the core values of the party and electrify the electorate.

As Sideshow Bob once said-

"Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may force you to vote Democratic, but deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this: to protect you from yourselves. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run."

The only way to beat the "daddy" factor is for a liberal to be as tough as nails.

Right on! Are you part of the DeanforAmerica mailing list? Actually it is now DemocracyforAmerica.org. He's been working to get people to run for office with liberal values. I loved that he was so courageous. I hate that the scream was so "important" in the media. That pissed me off and broke my heart. One man begins an illegal war resulting in the deaths of tens if thousands, the other screams once. :rolleyes:

dissention
01-20-2005, 06:18 PM
I think so. I think if Howard Dean had been nominated, he would have won. The key to winning is to have a spine, stick to the core values of the party and electrify the electorate.

As Sideshow Bob once said-

"Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may force you to vote Democratic, but deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this: to protect you from yourselves. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run."

The only way to beat the "daddy" factor is for a liberal to be as tough as nails.

I agree 100%. I thought that nominating Dean would be suicide, but I quickly changed that opinion. Nominating Dean would have won us the White House. Kerry's a spineless coward, he won't even get my vote when he runs for the Senate again.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 06:21 PM
I agree 100%. I thought that nominating Dean would be suicide, but I quickly changed that opinion. Nominating Dean would have won us the White House.

But could he have survived the media when he certainly could not survive the one attack on the vociferous speech - I wish we could have known and it certainly was his to lose and, sadly, he did. I mean if the D's only gave him one (I think) state in the primaries after his supernova beginning, would they have supported him enough in the end. Again, we will never know and I wish we could have found out :mad:

The Tower
01-20-2005, 06:21 PM
I think Dean would have been crucified and then burned at the stake.

Personally, I think Howard would have kicked Dubya's f*cking ass and shredded him to pieces. I don't think he would have held back on anything. I think Kerry's main problem was his past and Howard doesn't have that kind of baggage.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 06:22 PM
Personally, I think Howard would have kicked Dubya's f*cking ass and shredded him to pieces. I don't think he would have held back on anything. I think Kerry's main problem was his past and Howard doesn't have that kind of baggage.

Touche'

I also note Kerry the spineless did almost win though - so I give him props for that.

dissention
01-20-2005, 06:24 PM
Do you honestly think America in its present state will vote for a screaming liberal - I do not think so :cool:

Yes, I most certainly do. Why do you think Kerry lost the election? Because he ran to the middle. What did that accomplish? nothing but muddying the water. Voters looked at Kerry and Bush, realized that Kerry really wasn't all that much different than Bush, and asked themselves why they should change their horse in the middle of a stream. The common man felt that way, like it or not. And it's all because of the run to the middle. Kerry said that knowing what he knows now about Iraq, he still would have voted to authorize it. He said he supports faith-based initiatives 100%. He said he didn't personally agree with abortion. He said he opposed gay marriage and that if he could vote to ban it in MA, he would. See what I'm getting at? The common voter saw no difference between the two, so they stuck with the incumbent. There was nothing about John Kerry that compelled them to vote for him. He was a weak candidate.

dissention
01-20-2005, 06:26 PM
But could he have survived the media when he certainly could not survive the one attack on the vociferous speech - I wish we could have known and it certainly was his to lose and, sadly, he did. I mean if the D's only gave him one (I think) state in the primaries after his supernova beginning, would they have supported him enough in the end. Again, we will never know and I wish we could have found out :mad:

The scream did nothing to curtail his campaign, his loss in Iowa did that all by itself, IMO. The scream simply confirmed the fact that it was over for him. And why did he lose in Iowa? Because John Kerry had Vietnam to back him up and those that voted for him thought that alone would seal the deal.

dissention
01-20-2005, 06:28 PM
Personally, I think Howard would have kicked Dubya's f*cking ass and shredded him to pieces. I don't think he would have held back on anything. I think Kerry's main problem was his past and Howard doesn't have that kind of baggage.

Well, I wouldn't say that. The records he had sealed pertaining to his stint as governor would have been quite an issue.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 06:35 PM
The scream did nothing to curtail his campaign, his loss in Iowa did that all by itself, IMO. The scream simply confirmed the fact that it was over for him. And why did he lose in Iowa? Because John Kerry had Vietnam to back him up and those that voted for him thought that alone would seal the deal.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: that scream was played on every news station for like a week and it was mocked by everyone who mattered :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

But, yes, Dean was finished by that time and everyone pretty much knew it. Again, I would like for Dean to have won. I also think anyone that wins will have to be as clear and as plain spoken as Dean. Jeb Bush is clear and plain spoken and he has one helluva political machine behind him. The D's have their work cut out for them

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 06:52 PM
I think so. I think if Howard Dean had been nominated, he would have won. The key to winning is to have a spine, stick to the core values of the party and electrify the electorate.


I wonder if the Iowa caucus was a set up.

dissention
01-20-2005, 06:54 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: that scream was played on every news station for like a week and it was mocked by everyone who mattered :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

He had already lost. :shrug:

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 06:56 PM
I also note Kerry the spineless did almost win though - so I give him props for that.

I'm not sure he did lose. That election was one hell of a rigged craps game.

GateandGarden
01-20-2005, 07:07 PM
I think OUR Hillary should run. The GateandGarden Party! :] :] :] I may not be a great candidate, but I think I like myself more than both the other Hillary and Jeb. :laugh:

ontheEdgeof17
01-20-2005, 07:35 PM
:] :] I may not be a great candidate, but I think I like myself more than both the other Hillary and Jeb. :laugh:


I would be so bank for Secretary of State :thumbsup:

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 08:08 PM
I'm not sure he did lose. That election was one hell of a rigged craps game.

true - but I am referring pretty much to the popular vote here, which no statistics show W won.

But, I agree, the tampering that went on all over the country was horrible. So, who really knows :shrug:

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 08:11 PM
He had already lost. :shrug:

Last nail in the coffin because it will mark his credibility for years to come. If you went down the street and asked 20 people about Dean, I think well over half, if not all of them, would refer in some way to the scream :laugh:

Interestingly, I think it was not as bad as it seemed in that he was in a smaller room and perhaps did not realize the dynamics of the mic. in relation to the screaming crowd. Personally, I would think the rough and ride em cowboys of today that support W would like such bravado - such is life :cool:

sodascouts
01-20-2005, 08:51 PM
Interestingly, I think it was not as bad as it seemed in that he was in a smaller room and perhaps did not realize the dynamics of the mic. in relation to the screaming crowd. Personally, I would think the rough and ride em cowboys of today that support W would like such bravado - such is life :cool:

I think the media made a much bigger deal out of it than it was. Only people who already didn't like Dean thought it was horrible, IMHO.

I remember saying something like this when it first happened, but I was told by a few Ledges that his behavior was "not presidential" and therefore showed why he shouldn't be the Democratic candidate. :shrug:

dissention
01-20-2005, 08:56 PM
I think the media made a much bigger deal out of it than it was. Only people who already didn't like Dean thought it was horrible, IMHO.

Exactly. What Dean fan saw that and said, He's not getting my vote? No one.

I remember saying something like this when it first happened, but I was told by a few Ledges that his behavior was "not presidential" and therefore showed why he shouldn't be the Democratic candidate. :shrug:

I think it's very unpresidential for someone to be so stupid and act that way with cameras all over the place. :laugh: But there's also a part of me that admires him for throwing caution to the wind and acting like a normal person instead of a candidate that sticks to a script 24/7.

I wasn't a Dean fan for the simple reason that he was pro-capital punishment. Nothing would have made me vote for him in the primary or in the general election. But I still have the feeling that he would have been a much better candidate than Kerry, he would have come out on top, and he would have sent Bush back to Crawford. He would have kicked ass. And if his current cult following is any indication, he could run for president in '08 and stand a damned good chance.

gldstwmn
01-20-2005, 09:52 PM
I remember saying something like this when it first happened, but I was told by a few Ledges that his behavior was "not presidential"

It wasn't, IMO. He lacked foreign policy skills as well but hey, we're used to that now. :shrug:

The Tower
01-20-2005, 10:32 PM
Well, I wouldn't say that. The records he had sealed pertaining to his stint as governor would have been quite an issue.

I was thinking more along the lines of the aspects of the campaign. Kerry's decision to use his Vietnam past as major cornerstone of his candidacy, as well as his recent voting record with regard to Iraq left him handicapped.

Howard would not have been deterred by pathetic attacks from Bush like Kerry was- he would have stuck to pointing out all the lies and corruption from BushCo.

And besides, I love his guts- when asked by Charlie Gibson about the potential hypocrisy of his sealed records, Howard had this response-

"I'll unseal mine if he'll unseal all of his."

That's the kind of chutzpah I like in a candidate.

strandinthewind
01-20-2005, 10:50 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of the aspects of the campaign. Kerry's decision to use his Vietnam past as major cornerstone of his candidacy, as well as his recent voting record with regard to Iraq left him handicapped.

Howard would not have been deterred by pathetic attacks from Bush like Kerry was- he would have stuck to pointing out all the lies and corruption from BushCo.

And besides, I love his guts- when asked by Charlie Gibson about the potential hypocrisy of his sealed records, Howard had this response-

"I'll unseal mine if he'll unseal all of his."

That's the kind of chutzpah I like in a candidate.

On this we totally agree!!!!!!!

Dean might have been a little out there and who knows where that could have led - perhaps to the White House - but the fresh air was enough to ignite people and take an interest :nod: Sadly, Kerry had little of that spark and no stamina to sustain it like Dean did and realy still does. But and again, to Kerry's credit, he lost the electoral vote by 120,000 or so votes in Ohio and that number is somewhat questionable :shrug: So, Kerry was not all that bad from that vantage point even though he could have been a whole lot better to these eyes :cool:

strandinthewind
01-21-2005, 11:01 PM
OK - it is worth going to Fox News just to see the pick of Dean they have up.

Well - just to spare the meek from the site - here it is

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/strandinthewind/0_21_123004_ye_dean.jpg

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Here is the Fox site http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142967,00.html

GateandGarden
01-21-2005, 11:04 PM
That's a great pic there, Jason. :laugh: Is there a way to obtain an audio clip of Dean's Roar? :laugh: I just haven't heard it enough. :woohoo:

strandinthewind
01-21-2005, 11:10 PM
AND WE'RE GONNA GO TO . . . . . . . . . EEEEEEEEEEEEEE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHH

This one is hyterical

http://politicalhumor.about.com/b/a/059035.htm

that site has audio and video links to the actual speech/pep talk :laugh: as well. :cool: :cool: :cool:

GateandGarden
01-21-2005, 11:37 PM
AND WE'RE GONNA GO TO . . . . . . . . . EEEEEEEEEEEEEE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHH

This one is hyterical

http://politicalhumor.about.com/b/a/059035.htm

that site has audio and video links to the actual speech/pep talk :laugh: as well. :cool: :cool: :cool:OMG! This is too perfect! Thanks so much for that link!
:] :)