Politics and religion. Has anyone.....

[seeker007nmss]

I was just curious. Has anyone EVER chnaged their mind, or changed someone elses mind by discussing politics or religion? It seems we all have our own viewpoints, but rarely do these discussions ever really change anything. Seems at best to lead to the "agree to disagree" area. Just wondering if anyone has ever changed or changed someone by these discussions.

[amber]

I was just curious. Has anyone EVER chnaged their mind, or changed someone elses mind by discussing politics or religion? It seems we all have our own viewpoints, but rarely do these discussions ever really change anything. Seems at best to lead to the "agree to disagree" area. Just wondering if anyone has ever changed or changed someone by these discussions.
I've changed my mind about things before. Or, rather, i've adjusted my viewpoint to include things that i may not have known about before. I think i would be a fool to assume that i had all the answers. I've included knowledge i did not have before into my beliefs. As far as totally changing my mind? About the basic tennets of what i believe? probably not. But, there are things i'm undecided about, pending further info. I'm always ready for new facts, experiences.
But, within a discussion of religion and politics? probably not. When i've learned political things that i did not know before, it has usually had the effect of making me more liberal, and more prone to looking for the lie from the politician, the religious institution...but i did base that on knowledge gained. :shrug:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

My A.A. sponsor was very strict on the spiritual part of A.A.’s big book. I thought believers in God were freaks. I didn’t want to have any part of it. After about 2 months of quoting scripture and witnessing to me I decided I at least needed to try reading the bible. I started reading a NIV study bible and became fascinated at what I was reading.

I wanted more so I tried going to church. I thought the church was a little “out there” but I stuck with it. One day the Holy Spirit spoke to me in that church. I trembled like I’ve never trembled before. I felt a demon lifted from my body that day and about 30 minutes later when I woke up on the floor people told me I was speaking in tongues. I’m no saint and I’m certainly a sinner, but from that day I’ve never been the same.

If it wasn’t for a very wise old man pounding me with the bible I wonder if I’d be alive today. I was set on a path of total destruction and was running scared. I was ready to murder if I had to. I thought about murdering my parents and voices were telling me to do it.

Today I can look back on that and know God allowed me to go through hell for a purpose. A purpose I don’t quite understand but I’m thankful I went through it. I honestly am.

[amber]

Use big words and you can convince my sister of anything. I've experimented on her by disguising opposite sides as being of the same, morally correct argument (not difficult, she doesn't pick up on much) and getting her to passionately agree to both. I don't think that's what you're referring to though.

:laugh: :lol: :laugh:
that's mean, yet totally appropriate... :laugh: If she can't tell the difference...

[WildInTheWind]

I don't think I have ever totally changed anyones mind when it comes to politics or religion. I have had people say "well, yea, that's true". Thats about as far as it goes though!

~*~becky~*~

[DrummerDeanna]

I once convinced a friend of mine that in Sweden the MEN give birth rather than the women :laugh: that, however, has nothing to do with politics or religion.

I changed my mom's mind about the homosexuality issue - had her going to PFLAG and everything...:nod:

Religion wise, I've never tried to change anyone's mind - I really try to be respectful other's views ....hence if someone tries to mess with my views and push their own upon me- I get very upset and pretty much shut down...

[WildInTheWind]

when it comes to religion, I don't try to change others minds. Only to educate them if they are completely ignorant about a religion and are putting me or someone else down about it. I don't like to be called a devil worshiper or told that god will forgive me and I won't go to hell if I just turn to Jesus. LOL. Or I will argue someone to no end if I get them saying their way is the only right way and they feel sorry for those who don't believe the same. "you'll see in the end" was what I got one time. Bring it on! But I never try to convert people or tell them that there beliefs are wrong. Just don't put mine down or tell me I'm going to burn in hell.

~*~becky~*~

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Here’s another one.

The church that I attended in Florida was labeled a non denominational charismatic church teaching the Christian doctrine. We opened our arms to everyone. We we’re extremely active in the community and had a thrift store and food bank. The food bank was blessed daily with so much food we had to open a second building just for the food bank.

Anyway, at this church we’re 2 guys that ALWAYS sat right up front. I asked about them and was told they are gay and struggling to understand God. They came to church for every church function and we became good friends very quickly. You’d never know they were gay because they never acted it. I saw them struggle and cry in front of the whole congregation from time to time but they always came back.

One of these fellows asked if he could come to my house to watch a “Jesus Of Nazareth” video I just bought. I said sure and we watched it. Later that evening we both cried and prayed for each other. It was a very beautiful experience I’ll never forget. Time went by and the church closed due to new zoning laws.

A few years later I was at Benny Hinns church and who do I see? Up walks Dave with a woman. He said hi **** I want you to meet my wife. I looked at Dave and he looked at me. We both had tears in our eyes. Funny thing is I was still struggling with my demons and he was the happiest man you would ever want to meet. He went on to become a Pastor in Kentucky.

[skcin]

Don't know if I changed this guy's mind totally (friend of a friend, middle-aged white male) but we were arguing over homosexuality. He insisted people have a choice whether to be gay or not & that we're all born heterosexual.

So I asked how old he was when God allowed him to decide. He just looked at me funny, so I said "if we're all born hetero, then we're all born the same. So we all get the choice, right? When did you choose to be straight?"

He actually said "wow, I never thought about that. You've given me something to think about." Haven't spoken to him in years since. :shrug:

[dissention]

When it comes to poltics and religion, I have a very bad tendency to browbeat others. It doesn't accomplish much in the end and I've tried to stop being so forceful when it comes to my views, but I have the hardest time doing so. I don't know why, either. So, I don't think I've really changed anyone's mind and I do find that rather embarassing, to be honest.

As for my mind being changed, my views on religion have changed over the years. My family was Catholic and I even went to a Catholic school when I was younger. We didn't go to church very frequently, but my family would always tell me to believe in God or have faith, stuff like that. I just accepted everything they told me and didn't really ask questions, especially since I was getting the same kind of things taught to me in school.

I think about halfway through my first year there, I started to get really turned off by it all. We would go to services once a week during school hours as a class and I just remember being freaked out when we would get into the church. The giant crucifix of Jesus really started to scare me, as did the stained glass windows and the whole atmosphere it created. I think I just gradually lost interest in all things that had to do with religion. I went back to public school and never had anything to do with any of it for quite a long time.

When I went to middle school, I got interested in it for awhile all over again and eventually formed the view that religion wasn't for me, especially since I didn't believe in things such as God. It took me years to develop my feelings about those things and I think they still are developing, actually. :)

[DrummerDeanna]

When it comes to poltics and religion, I have a very bad tendency to browbeat others.

What!?! I've never noticed this! ;) :xoxo:

[dissention]

What!?! I've never noticed this! ;) :xoxo:

:laugh:

Yeah, I think I'm going to save myself from partaking in any more truly involved political threads. It might teach me how to be a bit more eloquent and reserved when replying. ;)

[SuzeQuze]

:laugh:

Yeah, I think I'm going to save myself from partaking in any more truly involved political threads. It might teach me how to be a bit more eloquent and reserved when replying. ;)

Reserved? And monkeys might fly out of my butt! :laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

Well, that "demons" comment certainly implies negativity towards homosexuality, but I won't really address that, as I am all tuckered out from defending myself in the past couple of days. ;) However, I will say that I suspect this guy was a lot like me, just the opposite. He spent a good part of his life convinced that he was gay, just as I was convinced that I was straight. When he finally figured out that he had the wrong sexual orientation the whole time, he was felt very freed. I felt the exact same way. It's a difficult thing--lots of people have things happen to them that make them think they're straight, or make them think they're gay when that's not the case. When I realized the truth, I was beyond relieved. Before I was out in the open to be criticized, I felt like I was being myself for the first time, not hiding anything, and it was much easier to look in the mirror and go out the door with a smile. Anyway, off-topic, but that made me think of my own situation.

OR it was SO pounded into his head that he was wong and immoral because of the way he was born - so he decided to hide it and live a "straight" life...

This happened to someone in my church. The result? He's the biggest flaming asshole to his wife. He's pissed because he can't be who he is - and so he's taken it out on her and their kids...(of course this isn't the reason he cites as to why he's an ass...) but he's gayer than gay - but denying himself his true self - just to prove something to the church. It's sad...

[DrummerDeanna]

:laugh:

Yeah, I think I'm going to save myself from partaking in any more truly involved political threads. It might teach me how to be a bit more eloquent and reserved when replying. ;)

:laugh: But you're so entertaining as is! Granted you took some getting used to - but we love you the way you are :xoxo:

[dissention]

:laugh: But you're so entertaining as is! Granted you took some getting used to - but we love you the way you are :xoxo:

:lol:

I said a few things that I wasn't too proud of in the past few days in the Bush/Coulter threads, so I'll be backing off a bit for awhile. The acid wit will never die, though. :laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

Or it could be that, too. If so, that is a shame and I hate to see it happen. :(

:nod: It is a shame - but hopefully your theory is more on key - because otherwise I'd feel bad for the guy and for his wife....:nod:

[SuzeQuze]

:nod: It is a shame - but hopefully your theory is more on key - because otherwise I'd feel bad for the guy and for his wife....:nod:

For a little levity, this reminds me of the Will and Grace episode where Jack goes to one of those meetings where they de-gay gay people and he mentions that he thought it was a ruse to pick up people. Everyone sort of admits that's the case and pairs up and leaves! :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

For a little levity, this reminds me of the Will and Grace episode where Jack goes to one of those meetings where they de-gay gay people and he mentions that he thought it was a ruse to pick up people. Everyone sort of admits that's the case and pairs up and leaves! :laugh::laugh: :lol: That's great. I should watch that show more! :nod:

[SuzeQuze]

:laugh: :lol: That's great. I should watch that show more! :nod:

Oh yeah, it's totally funny. My previous boss was gay and he used to talk about it all the time. I just thought it was a gay show and wasn't sure if it would be my thing but started watching and it is so hysterical! It's extremely irreverant.
:blob1: :blob1:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Well, that "demons" comment certainly implies negativity towards homosexuality, but I won't really address that. No, my demons were my own. It had nothing to do with homosexuality. I don’t know why you continue to associate something a straight person says has anythingto do with being anti gay. Makes me wonder what going on in that head of yours. :shocked:

[DrummerDeanna]

For a little levity, this reminds me of the Will and Grace episode where Jack goes to one of those meetings where they de-gay gay people and he mentions that he thought it was a ruse to pick up people. Everyone sort of admits that's the case and pairs up and leaves! :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: Oh man - that's hilarious!!!

[ShangriLaTroubl]

My mind and viewpoints have definetely changed over the years...even from posting on this very board and listening to the comments of others..I professed to Dissention a while back that "seeing Fahrenheit 911 would not change my mind on anything, and rest assured I would vote for Bush"

This was not that long ago...it was before the Democratic Presidential Primaries, but still in actuality not that far back. Now I consider myself to be a pretty liberal Democrat. Turns out in the past I refused to hear the other side at all, or research or look into the facts and whats going on. My whole family was republicans, and I was under the impression that Democrats are evil people who want to kill babies and give all my money to minorities and Republicans were the ones who wanted to save me money, wanted to save morality as we know it and were for "the little guy."
My oh my how my views have changed. It was not that I was ignorant, well I was somewhat, but turns out I WAS researching but it was only one side. Posting here didn't CHANGE my mind, it simply helped me as a young voter truly see what was inside all along, what my opinion was all along.

I now see the pathetic state of many voters. On Election Day when my step sister, who is quite an idiot I might add, asked me before going to vote for Bush "Is Bush the Democrat or the Republican?", and "Is Dick Cheney running against Bush or against Kerry?"
I swear to God! lol
Chris

[GypsySorcerer]

My views on both politics and religion have evolved.

I used to be in favor of capital punishment. Logically, in my mind, it was a deterrant. Of course, it is not, and there are a host of other reasons I am against capital punishment. I have always been pro-choice and pro gay-rights. Though I was never a Bush "fan," one day I pulled my thumb out of my ass and realized what a liar he was/is, and the horror of what he has done in America and abroad. As I examined more and more issues, I asked myself, "Why are you calling yourself a Republican?" :laugh:

I must say, I feel much better and stronger in my beliefs now.

[ontheEdgeof17]

As I examined more and more issues, I asked myself, "Why are you calling yourself a Republican?" :laugh:


I ask myself the same thing. :]


I stay Republican just to vote for my family members in the Primaries. Other than that, I am not.

[Mad4stevie]

I will admit to changing my mind about many things since I was younger and living in a small town in PA with fundamentalist Christian parents! :D

Then: pro-capital punishment, pro-life, no sex, drugs (alcohol included) or rock and roll (my mom actually tossed out my "Faith" tape by George Michael because of the song "I Want Your Sex"!! :lol: )

Now: anti-death penalty, on the fence with abortion (I see the moral and legal componets differently after law school), have lived "in sin", have tried a certain unnamed substance, and, well, enjoy listening to all types of music (sexual or not).

I also have gotten some perspective on religion and how it factors into my life. I believe in many of basic componets of Christianity, but I absolutely cannot stand the judgemental, perfectionistic attitude that some believe is necessary to portray to be a "Christain".

I don't know that I have changed anyone's mind about anything, but I do know that I will always listen to what others have to say, as long as it is said in a respectful manner, and will make up my own mind about what I think instead of blindly following.

[sodascouts]

I have changed my mind about something because of the Ledge, but only indirectly. I no longer support the Consitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman. It wasn't because I was harrassed into it by angry posts, but because people I care about made me see the issue from a different perspective. They treated me with respect, and not like the enemy. I gave good consideration to what they were saying, and I realized that it does not compromise my beliefs in any way to withdraw my support for this amendment.

I haven't said anything before in other threads dealing with this topic because of the confrontational nature of them. I was put on the defensive by name-calling and what I felt where unfair portrayals of conservatives and/or Christians, and the last thing I wanted to do was express my change of heart in that context. I was afraid it would look like I was influenced by such negativity. But this thread has a different tone, so I felt it was an appropriate time to admit it. :)

Regarding political discussions, I have said this before - I think most Ledgies are thinking people who, if dealt with on an intellectual level, will at least come to respect the point of view of the opposite side even if they don't share it. It's about understanding where other people are coming from. I have actively tried to do that and it has benefitted me greatly. And yes, it has helped me persuade others (not in this forum though! lol). But mostly I do it for myself.

Religion is harder to discuss in a forum such as this. There's no logic involved in religion, so it's pretty futile to try and "discuss" it in this way. No one will ever talk me out of my belief in Christ. I do think religion can be discussed contextually in its relationship to politics, but when the discussion turns to mockery of a belief system, it's no longer worth anything. This is not just mockery of Christianity that I'm talking about, but things like the thread attacking Muslims a while back.... it's all bad. If someone wants to discuss my religion seriously with me, I'm happy to do so, but most of the time that's not the case. Those things are best done in person anyway, not a forum like this.

Also, it's true the low percentage of Republicans on the board does also discourage posting just by nature of the fact that nobody likes to feel ganged up on. I'm sure everyone understands that, even if they're part of the gang. So it's hardly surprising that most of the time the Ledge Chit-Chat choir's all singing the same tune. I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty, just stating a fact. Look at the brown_eyes saga. Regardless of whether you agree with him or not, it sure takes guts to keep fighting when you're that outnumbered. And despite what someone has said, this is not technically a liberal board where all conservatives are trolls! I will say I have never been treated like a troll, but that comment was in the other thread, so I thought I'd address it.

I respect Ledgie liberals who are able to express themselves logically and with facts. I don't admire so much the people who only join in to hoot or insult the opposition. And there are people who fall in the middle. I'm not trying to preach, just saying that you can choose to encourage discussion or you can choose to close it down by shouting down your opposition and calling them names (knowing that few people will stick around to talk once they've been insulted repeatedly, although it doesn't work with everyone). And a closed down discussion doesn't change any minds.

Well, I've got a tutoring appointment at 3:00, so I'll go ahead and end it there.

P.S. I have participated in good discussions around here and I know we're all capable of having them! We've just got to watch our tone!

[strandinthewind]

THAT - my dear Nancy - is why you are the tops!!!!!!!!!!

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: