Are We All Cyber-Savages?

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Forums, What a wonderful idea they are in theory. A virtual meeting place for people from around the world with similar interests. If you're interested in writing, or science fiction, or movie stars, or horticulture, there's a forum for you. A number of forums, actually. You can meet people who share your views, who are interested in the input you bring, and who will welcome you to the group.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Nearly every forum is filled with bristling savages waiting to pounce on newcomers to the group and whip them into virtual submission. Interactions between members of a group are tense and filled with admonishments, insults, and indecency.

Why is it like this?

The answer is simple: no consequences. The dynamics of a forum can be likened to a miniature society. After all, a society is a group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture. Most forums I think qualify as a society.

In order to ensure the smooth and effective interaction between members of a society, rules are usually imposed establishing what is acceptable behavior and what is not. The consequence of violating those rules is punishment of some kind. For instance, in our society it is illegal to murder someone. The consequence of murdering a person is jail or possibly even death.

Consequences for inappropriate behavior are all that keeps mankind civilized. The fear of the consequence must outweigh the desire to commit an inappropriate action. If the fear is less than the desire, the crime is committed.

It's a sad thought to realize that civilization is possible only through fear of retribution. Many people, myself included, would like to think that the inherent goodness of man is all that is needed for civilization. We want to think that intellectual discourse should be able to convince people to behave in the best interests of the whole society.

It doesn't work that way, though. Many forums prove the point beautifully. even here at *****, there are no consequences for uncivilized behavior. If you rant, scream, curse, defile, and annoy there is very little anyone can do to you it seems.

The people you upset and offend are probably not even in the same state/province as you. Heck - they may be in a different country altogether. You don't see them. You don't know them. They are nothing to you. They can do nothing to you. The group has no power over you. Even if you are banned, all you need do is come back with a different alias.

Because there are no consequences for behavior in most forums , the lowest common denominator inevitably sets the tone for the entire group. The veneer of civilized behavior falls from everyone and it quickly degenerates into pomp, bluster, and infantile behavior from supposedly adult and educated people as they all try to establish themselves as "top dog."

That is what happens when there are no consequences. The ultimate goals of any group degenerates into a battle for supremacy against others in the group. A pecking order is established and places in that order constantly change as one person achieves victory over another. Newcomers are on the lowest rung of the ladder and are lashed out at by nearly everyone.

Primitive subgroups appear in the forum. To gain some kind of validity, like-minded individuals gather to confront common foes, who likewise group together. Cyber-Savages. That is what we humans become when we meet in cyberspace and there are no rules. We create elitist groups and staunchly defend our turf by attempting to make others appear less intelligent than we are.

The dream of the Internet being the ultimate playground of the mind - where race, color, religion, nationality, and creed do not matter in the common goal of pure knowledge is a faulty dream.

That dream will never be realized because mankind must have consequences to behave in a civilized manner.

[sunmaiden]

Very well thought-out piece. I enjoyed reading it. We had a similar discussion in my English class. The whole no-consequences theme, but I never really put pecking-order into thought. Something to reflect on, eh? :nod:

[SuzeQuze]

This is from http://www.iscifistory.com/forums/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25&whichpage=1

Did you post this to make it up for debate? What are your thoughts on this article?

Forums, What a wonderful idea they are in theory. A virtual meeting place for people from around the world with similar interests. If you're interested in writing, or science fiction, or movie stars, or horticulture, there's a forum for you. A number of forums, actually. You can meet people who share your views, who are interested in the input you bring, and who will welcome you to the group.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Nearly every forum is filled with bristling savages waiting to pounce on newcomers to the group and whip them into virtual submission. Interactions between members of a group are tense and filled with admonishments, insults, and indecency.

Why is it like this?

The answer is simple: no consequences. The dynamics of a forum can be likened to a miniature society. After all, a society is a group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture. Most forums I think qualify as a society.

In order to ensure the smooth and effective interaction between members of a society, rules are usually imposed establishing what is acceptable behavior and what is not. The consequence of violating those rules is punishment of some kind. For instance, in our society it is illegal to murder someone. The consequence of murdering a person is jail or possibly even death.

Consequences for inappropriate behavior are all that keeps mankind civilized. The fear of the consequence must outweigh the desire to commit an inappropriate action. If the fear is less than the desire, the crime is committed.

It's a sad thought to realize that civilization is possible only through fear of retribution. Many people, myself included, would like to think that the inherent goodness of man is all that is needed for civilization. We want to think that intellectual discourse should be able to convince people to behave in the best interests of the whole society.

It doesn't work that way, though. Many forums prove the point beautifully. even here at *****, there are no consequences for uncivilized behavior. If you rant, scream, curse, defile, and annoy there is very little anyone can do to you it seems.

The people you upset and offend are probably not even in the same state/province as you. Heck - they may be in a different country altogether. You don't see them. You don't know them. They are nothing to you. They can do nothing to you. The group has no power over you. Even if you are banned, all you need do is come back with a different alias.

Because there are no consequences for behavior in most forums , the lowest common denominator inevitably sets the tone for the entire group. The veneer of civilized behavior falls from everyone and it quickly degenerates into pomp, bluster, and infantile behavior from supposedly adult and educated people as they all try to establish themselves as "top dog."

That is what happens when there are no consequences. The ultimate goals of any group degenerates into a battle for supremacy against others in the group. A pecking order is established and places in that order constantly change as one person achieves victory over another. Newcomers are on the lowest rung of the ladder and are lashed out at by nearly everyone.

Primitive subgroups appear in the forum. To gain some kind of validity, like-minded individuals gather to confront common foes, who likewise group together. Cyber-Savages. That is what we humans become when we meet in cyberspace and there are no rules. We create elitist groups and staunchly defend our turf by attempting to make others appear less intelligent than we are.

The dream of the Internet being the ultimate playground of the mind - where race, color, religion, nationality, and creed do not matter in the common goal of pure knowledge is a faulty dream.

That dream will never be realized because mankind must have consequences to behave in a civilized manner.

[amber]

Nice post.

[Hawkeye]

OMG, I've never thought of it that way :shocked: That was really an amazing article. We are like our own civilization. But I also think if this was a civilization, we'd be just fine in the end.

[SuzeQuze]

I guess I had to check the Bush thread for the intro to the post, who knew? :shrug:

[GypsySorcerer]

I don't think it has so much to do with the Internet per se, but groups. Research has shown time and time again that people will "bandwagon" with groups and will do things they normally wouldn't do when part of "the crowd."

Take the food fight in the cafeteria. Little Johnny, the "bad boy" starts it, but soon everyone is joining in. Even little Kimmy, the straight "A" student who never gets in trouble. Kimmy would never start a food fight on her own, but she will participate when she sees others doing it.

I don't think, though, that most people act differently on the 'Net than they do in "real life."

[ontheEdgeof17]

I don't think, though, that most people act differently on the 'Net than they do in "real life."


I don't either. I act exactly the same. I don't have a 'net personality and another for daily living.


iamwhoiamamwhoiamamwhoiam.....

[dissention]

I don't think, though, that most people act differently on the 'Net than they do in "real life."

Agreed. It would be pretty sad if someone acted completely out of character when posting on a message board, of all places. People are who they are, hopefully they don't try to pass themselves off as someone different just for kicks. :)

[estranged4life]

with you see (That I type) is what you get...

[dissention]

Well, damn.

Now everyone knows I don't have cancer.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[irishgrl]

the old "us" versus "them" conundrum, the "tribal mentality" argument.
and a dose of old fashioned GUILT thrown in for good measure.
personally, I think water finds its own level. people gravitate toward forums that have a general tone they agree with. I happen to like the politics on this forum because I sense a more liberal mind frame here than on other boards Ive posted on. I still post on those other boards but I find I am in agreement with more people here (or more people are in agreement with ME here!)

Another thing: I think people generally LURK for a bit before joining a board so as to get the lay of the land so to speak. At least I do.....

ps: I clicked on the link that Suze provided and found this:
"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." - H. G. Wells (1866-1946) I think that is priceless!

[estranged4life]

Another thing: I think people generally LURK for a bit before joining a board so as to get the lay of the land so to speak. At least I do.....

some are afraid to post their thoughts/opinions for fear they will be flamed.

Example: Another website I post on it was asked that all "newbie f**ktards TO NOT start a lameass 'Hi I'm New' thread or you will suffer...No one cares if yer new, Just jump into the conversations or f**k off."

[ryan8472]

Well, it is true that I can say a LOT more here than I can in real life. See the Picture, What are you listening to, and Perv threads :lol:

[dissention]

Well, it is true that I can say a LOT more here than I can in real life. See the Picture, What are you listening to, and Perv threads :lol:

I don't think many exclaim what song they're listening to at the moment right out loud and I don't think anyone walks about describing Dirty Sanchez. :laugh:

[ryan8472]

I don't think many exclaim what song they're listening to at the moment right out loud and I don't think anyone walks about describing Dirty Sanchez. :laugh:
Exactly :p I was referring to some of our convo's though :laugh:

[dissention]

Exactly :p I was referring to some of our convo's though :laugh:

Could you imagine if someone did walk up to you and describe such things? I'd slap them right across the face. :laugh:

[ryan8472]

Could you imagine if someone did walk up to you and describe such things? I'd slap them right across the face. :laugh:
Not me....If it were me, you'd laugh and them come back with an even worse comment. You know it ;) :wavey: :laugh:

[dissention]

Not me....If it were me, you'd laugh and them come back with an even worse comment. You know it ;) :wavey: :laugh:

Probably. :laugh: I could make Dr. Ruth blush, man. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Of course we're not all Spider Savitches! Really, how many of us here are professional skiiers who've been shot by Claudine Longet?!?
Get real!

Ohhhh... the question was "are we all cyber savages"! :shocked:
How embarrassing! :o

Nevermind. :cool:

[SuzeQuze]

Of course we're not all Spider Savitches! Really, how many of us here are professional skiiers who've been shot by Claudine Longet?!?
Get real!

Ohhhh... the question was "are we all cyber savages"! :shocked:
How embarrassing! :o

Nevermind. :cool:

I guess you could argue there is a "liberal pack mentality" here. Do you suppose that is what he meant? I guess we sort of ganged up on Brown Eyes but it appeared he/she was interested in the discourse or would have stopped pages before. Like IrishGirl said, we have found similar voices here. Chit Chat tends to consist of largely liberal points of view when the subject of politics comes up. If someone wants to throw in their conservative 2 cents they should expect the gang to rise up. It is just the way it is here. Some people are more harsh than others but I really don't think anyone on here is cruel. I just don't see that. I do not buy the theory.

I am the same in my real life. I drive some people nuts with my "liberal lunacy" and others revel in what I know and thank me for passing it along. The thing is, I am very passionate about my views, now more than ever, and feel a pressing need to express them. I will argue and argue. I don't expect to change anybody's mind. But I am not middle of the road on social issues, I'm liberal and damn proud of it.

[irishgrl]

AMEN and Hallelujah!

[GateandGarden]

Well, it is true that I can say a LOT more here than I can in real life.That is definitely true for me. Sometimes I can't believe the things I can say to people on here with an air of self-confidence I'm lacking in real life. Let's take the recent gay marriage debate with brwneyes. If brwneyes spoke to me and said those things face to face, I would probably start crying and have to run off. Here, I can say what's on my mind. Of course, in my real life I don't have so many people ready and willing to back me up and support me. :xoxo:

Anyway, is that post supposed to explain why 1/2 insane won't be posting here any longer? :confused:

[ontheEdgeof17]

Anyway, is that post supposed to explain why 1/2 insane won't be posting here any longer? :confused:


I don't get it anyway. I guess he thinks we eat our young? :shrug: I think it is just a conversation. If we all had the same views, it would be one boring forum. I guess he is just too busy posting about Stevie's ass hair and picking the next Santa Penis icon. :rolleyes:

[dissention]

I don't get it anyway. I guess he thinks we eat our young? :shrug: I think it is just a conversation. If we all had the same views, it would be one boring forum. I guess he is just too busy posting about Stevie's ass hair and picking the next Santa Penis icon. :rolleyes:

Oh, snap. :lol:

[GateandGarden]

I don't get it anyway. I guess he thinks we eat our young? :shrug: I think it is just a conversation. If we all had the same views, it would be one boring forum. I guess he is just too busy posting about Stevie's ass hair and picking the next Santa Penis icon. :rolleyes:What I find really...well, inspiring (couldn't conjure up a less cheesy term for the moment) is how so many of us banded together against the trolling of Brwneyes in spite of our have petty differences. We argue about things that are comparatively stupid when you think about the issues discussed in that thread. I love how we put all of that aside and supported each other. That was too cool. :) We don't all have the same views about "Whatsamattababy," but so many on here agree on so many important things. I think we've got something great going on.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I guess I had to check the Bush thread for the intro to the post, who knew? :shrug:I did that on purpose SuzyQuze. It’s a tactic I use to create a smoke screen. I’d explain it but I won’t. It served what I was trying to accomplish verrry well. :nod: :lol:

[seeker007nmss]

I'm liberal and damn proud of it.

I am not sure why most people feel they have to be in one camp or the other. I am liberal on some issues, conservative on others, and neither on still other issues. All sides are just veiwpoints and neither are 100% "the truth". I hate labels in all forms, just seems to simplify people to a single word, when most people are far more interesting than that. Also, I cringe when I see something like "All Men do this....Or Women Always....." Some men don't and not all women do.... Steriotypes just seem like such a lazy way out. Okay, stepping down...soapbox now open. ;) I am a conservative/liberal/middle of the road.....and proud of it!