The Bible Codes

[Hawkeye]

I just watched a special on The History Channel about The Bible Codes. And all I can say is WOW. What do you all think about these. It's kind of erie how accurate it is. And according to the codes the world will end sometime around 2010. So that's the deadline for Fleetwood Mac tog et another album and tour to come out.

[greatdarkwing]

I just watched a special on The History Channel about The Bible Codes. And all I can say is WOW. What do you all think about these. It's kind of erie how accurate it is. And according to the codes the world will end sometime around 2010. So that's the deadline for Fleetwood Mac tog et another album and tour to come out.

I think its fair to say thats the deadline for Lindsey's next solo album :laugh:

~Alex

[Hawkeye]

actually 2012 will be when the world ends according to the codes so there's time for a Fleetwood Mac album AND solo albums.

[amber]

actually 2012 will be when the world ends according to the codes so there's time for a Fleetwood Mac album AND solo albums.
The Mayans, or Aztecs, predicted Dec.23rd, 2012. I love shows like that!!! I wish they were on reg. TV all the time... :distress: :p

[wondergirl9847]

Sorry I missed that show. That type of thing interests me to no end. 2010, huh? 6 more years to live...what am I gonna do?

Need to meet Lindsey and Keith, tell them I love their music.

Need to go to Paris, Canada, Hawaii, and Italy, along with tons of other places.

Need to write and publish a book.

Need to fall in love.

Yep, lots to do....gotta get started on this list. ;)

[Hawkeye]

The Mayans, or Aztecs, predicted Dec.23rd, 2012. I love shows like that!!! I wish they were on reg. TV all the time... :distress: :p

I really do love shows like that. Hearing about natural disasters and the end of the world make it easier for me to sleep, because I look at my little problems I have and say eh, it's not so bad :laugh:

[amber]

.
.
I really do love shows like that. Hearing about natural disasters and the end of the world make it easier for me to sleep, because I look at my little problems I have and say eh, it's not so bad :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh:
I just trip out on how a lot of cultures around the world think the same things, and have theories, and whatnot. Have you seen shows on how every culture has a flood story? :nod:

[GypsySorcerer]

Didn't see that one.......But I did watch most of the Rameses special on the Discovery channel. Very interesting.

[markolas]

Bah...

It's a load of horse sh*t. Bible prophecy is a lot like newspaper horoscopes. It's so vague, that it could mean just about anything. Anybody can make up "codes" from any book and use them to predict anything.

And the reason all cultures have flood myths is because early civilizations all developed around rivers, which flooded. A lot. It doesn't mean there was a worldwide flood.

[DrummerDeanna]

I really do love shows like that. Hearing about natural disasters and the end of the world make it easier for me to sleep, because I look at my little problems I have and say eh, it's not so bad :laugh:

I used to watch shows like that when I was younger - and the freaked me out so much - still do - I just don't have cable anymore....wish I did so I could have caught that show - sounds really interesting....but I maintain that if I were to get cable I would NEVER leave my house....

[Moony]

Bah...

It's a load of horse sh*t. Bible prophecy is a lot like newspaper horoscopes. It's so vague, that it could mean just about anything. Anybody can make up "codes" from any book and use them to predict anything.

And the reason all cultures have flood myths is because early civilizations all developed around rivers, which flooded. A lot. It doesn't mean there was a worldwide flood.

:thumbsup:
Couldn't agree with you more

[amber]

Bah...

It's a load of horse sh*t. Bible prophecy is a lot like newspaper horoscopes. It's so vague, that it could mean just about anything. Anybody can make up "codes" from any book and use them to predict anything.

And the reason all cultures have flood myths is because early civilizations all developed around rivers, which flooded. A lot. It doesn't mean there was a worldwide flood.
okay, but from everything i've read, and seen things about, i think there was a worldwide flood. You know, scientific evidence and all that? :wavey:

[amber]

:thumbsup:
Couldn't agree with you more
Oh, my own sweet f**. You gotta study up on your scientific and cultural history!!! :xoxo: You don't have to believe in the bible to think there was a worldwide flood. You just gotta look at the archeaology, et al. :wavey: ;)

[Moony]

Oh, my own sweet f**. You gotta study up on your scientific and cultural history!!! :xoxo: You don't have to believe in the bible to think there was a worldwide flood. You just gotta look at the archeaology, et al. :wavey: ;)

:laugh:
I should have been more clear - I agreed with his take on Bible prophecies. As for the world wide flood thingybob, I really have no opinion on it and don't care... :wavey: :angel:

[amber]

:laugh:
I should have been more clear - I agreed with his take on Bible prophecies. As for the world wide flood thingybob, I really have no opinion on it and don't care... :wavey: :angel:
Don't care? but...it happened so long ago, how could you not care??? :confused: :laugh: ;) :xoxo:

[DrummerDeanna]

Oh, my own sweet f**. You gotta study up on your scientific and cultural history!!! :xoxo: You don't have to believe in the bible to think there was a worldwide flood. You just gotta look at the archeaology, et al. :wavey: ;)

Worldwide floods aside - I think those shows are just really interesting and fun - I used to watch all those Nostradomus (sp?) specials they'd have (inevitably around the change of the year) and they scared the crap outta me - but I didn't take them seriously - I just like that they can freak me out a little and are entertaining - though I'm usually aware of how ridiculous these things usually are...it's like horror flicks - they freak me out but i Know they're not real :)

[amber]

I don't believe there was a world wide flood either. But hey, I believe in evolution so....
I believe in evolution, too. They're not mutually exclusive. Almost every culture has a flood myth, and there is also scientific/anthropological/geographic evidence. But, obviously y'all haven't seen as much of it as i have. So it's irritating to argue about it. :p IT'S CALLED SCIENCE, PEOPLE!!! :laugh: :nod:

[amber]

Worldwide floods aside - I think those shows are just really interesting and fun - I used to watch all those Nostradomus (sp?) specials they'd have (inevitably around the change of the year) and they scared the crap outta me - but I didn't take them seriously - I just like that they can freak me out a little and are entertaining - though I'm usually aware of how ridiculous these things usually are...it's like horror flicks - they freak me out but i Know they're not real :)
Yes, i love those too, but i was talking about real science books and real science shows! :p dagnabbit!!! :laugh:

[ontheEdgeof17]

:p IT'S CALLED SCIENCE, PEOPLE!!! :laugh: :nod:

Then describe how we all came to be if everyone else was killed and left only with Noah, his wife, and his kids......


I know in the Bible it says that his three sons peopled the whole Earth. I guess that is more from faith, cuz science sure can't explain that one. :lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

Yes, i love those too, but i was talking about real science books and real science shows! :p dagnabbit!!! :laugh:


No - I know that - and I didn't even see the Bible Codes special - or any thing on cable recently...lol - I was just sayin' I enjoy creepy shows....

Also - I know what you're saying about the flood - I don't know all that much about the Earth's history sadly...but yeah...rock on.

[amber]

Then describe how we all came to be if everyone else was killed and left only with Noah, his wife, and his kids......


I know in the Bible it says that his three sons peopled the whole Earth. I guess that is more from faith, cuz science sure can't explain that one. :lol:
I didn't say i believed the bible version! That's totally different! Well, not totally different, but that's just one story..If anyone ever wants to read Fingerprints of the Gods, by Graham Hancock, that's an interesting start. And, no, it's not about the bible at all.

[wondergirl9847]

Then describe how we all came to be if everyone else was killed and left only with Noah, his wife, and his kids......


I know in the Bible it says that his three sons peopled the whole Earth. I guess that is more from faith, cuz science sure can't explain that one. :lol:

How did the entire world come to be with just Adam and Eve? We assume (well, *I* assume) that they had lots more children than we know about and obviously they had to have had *ahem* relations with each other. LOL Unless God provided them with spouses, which I doubt.

When the world ends...God said we will know the mysteries of the universe. :)

[DrummerDeanna]

When the world ends...God said we will know the mysteries of the universe. :)

Well that'd be cool :nod: I wouldn't mind knowing the mysteries of the universe :D

[Vianna]

"I just trip out on how a lot of cultures around the world think the same things, and have theories, and whatnot. Have you seen shows on how every culture has a flood story?"

I do, too. The flood story though was passed along orally and probably other cultures copied it.

[amber]

"I just trip out on how a lot of cultures around the world think the same things, and have theories, and whatnot. Have you seen shows on how every culture has a flood story?"

I do, too. The flood story though was passed along orally and probably other cultures copied it.
I don't think so. Cultures that had minimal if any contact with others have the story. There is scientific geographical evidence. but, hey :shrug: whatever... :D

[paleshadow]

okay, but from everything i've read, and seen things about, i think there was a worldwide flood. You know, scientific evidence and all that? :wavey:

Is there scientific evidence of a world wide flood? From a scientific standpoint, if there was a catastrophic flood thousands of years ago which wiped out nearly all life on Earth, there would be a large fossil bed that contained all the species that existed on Earth at the time, rather than several layers of fossil beds which contained different species.

As far as many cultures having a flood myth, it's typical of newer cultures, or neighboring cultures to borrow creation, and other stories and adapt or incorporate them into their own customs.

[amber]

Is there scientific evidence of a world wide flood? From a scientific standpoint, if there was a catastrophic flood thousands of years ago which wiped out nearly all life on Earth, there would be a large fossil bed that contained all the species that existed on Earth at the time, rather than several layers of fossil beds which contained different species.

As far as many cultures having a flood myth, it's typical of newer cultures, or neighboring cultures to borrow creation, and other stories and adapt or incorporate them into their own customs.
okay. :wavey: I know other things. :) But rock on...

[strandinthewind]

Is there scientific evidence of a world wide flood? From a scientific standpoint, if there was a catastrophic flood thousands of years ago which wiped out nearly all life on Earth, there would be a large fossil bed that contained all the species that existed on Earth at the time, rather than several layers of fossil beds which contained different species.

As far as many cultures having a flood myth, it's typical of newer cultures, or neighboring cultures to borrow creation, and other stories and adapt or incorporate them into their own customs.

Well, there is and there is not :shrug: There is evidence of a HUGE event happening thousands of years ago (actually evidence exists to support a few such events over the last several million years) - Many think the event was an asteroid hitting the Earth and causing the Earth to shift a few degrees on her axis - thus causing the formerly floral Sarah Desert to form. Here are some sites - take them for what you will and there are more if you google, etc.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4168.asp

http://www.myfortress.org/archaeology.html

http://www.thinkquest.org/library/site_sum.html?tname=29178&url=29178/noahand.htm

http://www.icr.org/creationproducts/Age_of_Earth2FFlood.html

Again, there are MANY theories on this :cool:

[amber]

Have you seen the stuff about the newer theory of how old the sphinx really is? It has massive water erosion consistent only with tropical, wet weather, which, of course, Egypt did not have post about 10,000 years ago :eek: (I think it's 10,000, i forgot exactly). Anyway, it's been on all the science shows that talk about that stuff, and of course in Graham Hancocks book. Anywhoo.... :wavey:

[paleshadow]

Have you seen the stuff about the newer theory of how old the sphinx really is? It has massive water erosion consistent only with tropical, wet weather, which, of course, Egypt did not have post about 10,000 years ago :eek: (I think it's 10,000, i forgot exactly). Anyway, it's been on all the science shows that talk about that stuff, and of course in Graham Hancocks book. Anywhoo.... :wavey:

Many respectable scientists have refuted the theory of the sphinx and done demonstrations showing that the erosion patterns can and most likely were caused by sand. I've seen some of the shows you are talking about also, and some of them also suggest that the Egyptians did not have the technology to create the pyramids and other monuments, therefore Aliens must have been responsible. Often these "science" programs cast well know, respected celebrities as hosts to help lend crediblility to their claims. I don't remember which one, but it may have been the sphynx one, featured Charleton Heston (Moses)! Unfortunately many people see these celebs and conciously or subconsiously think "It's Moses, so it must be true" I think people need to understand the difference between Pseudoscience and Science.
I recommend the book "Pseudoscience, Superstition, and other Confusions of Our Time" by Stephen Jay Gould. It's an interesting read no matter what your stand point on the issue is.

[paleshadow]

okay. :wavey: I know other things. :) But rock on...

You can even find people who "know" the holocaust was a big conspiracy. I guess it's less of what we know and more of what we chose to believe. ;)

[paleshadow]

Well, there is and there is not :shrug: There is evidence of a HUGE event happening thousands of years ago (actually evidence exists to support a few such events over the last several million years) - Many think the event was an asteroid hitting the Earth and causing the Earth to shift a few degrees on her axis - thus causing the formerly floral Sarah Desert to form. Here are some sites - take them for what you will and there are more if you google, etc.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4168.asp

http://www.myfortress.org/archaeology.html

http://www.thinkquest.org/library/site_sum.html?tname=29178&url=29178/noahand.htm

http://www.icr.org/creationproducts/Age_of_Earth2FFlood.html

Again, there are MANY theories on this :cool:

Sure, the astoroid theory isn't really debated, the point is that it pre-dated "human" life forms on the planet. The flood myth is post humans populating the planet. The only other thing that can possibly make the flood myth credible is if you consider thousands of years ago, an individual culture would most likely belive that they made up the entire race of mankind. Even a reasonably small flood that killed an entire villiage may have been thought of as catastrophic, and preserved by any survivors and embelleshed orally for centuries to come until it was finally written down. A flood that destroyed a small villiage becomes "The Great Flood" that destroyed the entire human race. :nod:

[strandinthewind]

Sure, the astoroid theory isn't really debated, the point is that it pre-dated "human" life forms on the planet. The flood myth is post humans populating the planet. The only other thing that can possibly make the flood myth credible is if you consider thousands of years ago, an individual culture would most likely belive that they made up the entire race of mankind. Even a reasonably small flood that killed an entire villiage may have been thought of as catastrophic, and preserved by any survivors and embelleshed orally for centuries to come until it was finally written down. A flood that destroyed a small villiage becomes "The Great Flood" that destroyed the entire human race. :nod:

Yes, I mean look at some of the vocanic eruptions and/or erthquakes - a la Pompeii. That is why I tend to look at the spirit of The Bible's story - which is great IMO. Also, some argue another smaller asteroid hit the Earth during the age of man (oooo how Tolkeiin of me :laugh: )

[paleshadow]

Yes, I mean look at some of the vocanic eruptions and/or erthquakes - a la Pompeii. That is why I tend to look at the spirit of The Bible's story - which is great IMO. Also, some argue another smaller asteroid hit the Earth during the age of man (oooo how Tolkeiin of me :laugh: )

I agree about enjoying stories in the bible. To me it's just like Greek mythology, stories that were made to explain what, at that time, was unexplainable. I would LOVE to go to Pompeii! My father was there a few years ago and brought me back a piece of a wall he broke off! I have it on my bookshelf, and I get the chills thinking about how old it is, and all of the history. It's probably a bit of 10 year old concrete from Italy's version of Home Depot though! :o

[estranged4life]

only 6 more years til I take over & end this party, Since I am nicknamed the Anti-Christ!!! :thumbsup:

Brian "666 and 3/4ths" j.

[strandinthewind]

I agree about enjoying stories in the bible. To me it's just like Greek mythology, stories that were made to explain what, at that time, was unexplainable. I would LOVE to go to Pompeii! My father was there a few years ago and brought me back a piece of a wall he broke off! I have it on my bookshelf, and I get the chills thinking about how old it is, and all of the history. It's probably a bit of 10 year old concrete from Italy's version of Home Depot though! :o

I was there at the end of this last Aug. It is SPECTACULAR. The fescos are still on the walls. It is amazing. I highly suggest doing the climb Mt. Vesuvious (sp.?) and then Pompeii your. I did and am HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY for it :cool:

[amber]

You can even find people who "know" the holocaust was a big conspiracy. I guess it's less of what we know and more of what we chose to believe. ;)
Guess so. I like to believe science things. :)

[paleshadow]

I was there at the end of this last Aug. It is SPECTACULAR. The fescos are still on the walls. It is amazing. I highly suggest doing the climb Mt. Vesuvious (sp.?) and then Pompeii your. I did and am HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY for it :cool:

My dad showed me photos in a book of the frescos! Can you say "PORNO"! It wasn't really the kind of thing I wanted to look at with my pops!! I have to say though, God bless them if those frescos were anatomically correct!! :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

My dad showed me photos in a book of the frescos! Can you say "PORNO"! It wasn't really the kind of thing I wanted to look at with my pops!! I have to say though, God bless them if those frescos were anatomically correct!! :laugh:

Well, they were fascinated by the size of a phallus - there actually many stories about this, etc. The pic.s in the bathhouse and the whorehouse were the best LOL :eek:

[paleshadow]

Guess so. I like to believe science things. :)


Amber, check out that book I mentioned a few posts ago. I think you'll enjoy it either way. I have come across very few programs on TV that are truely Scientific. Nothing that has a sponsor can be completely impartial. Shows like "In Search Of" defiantley fall into the "Pseudoscience" catagory.

[amber]

Amber, check out that book I mentioned a few posts ago. I think you'll enjoy it either way. I have come across very few programs on TV that are truely Scientific. Nothing that has a sponsor can be completely impartial. Shows like "In Search Of" defiantley fall into the "Pseudoscience" catagory.
okay. thanks. And in no way was I talking about shows like "In Search Of" :rolleyes: :) Just for the Record...

[amber]

Sure, the astoroid theory isn't really debated, the point is that it pre-dated "human" life forms on the planet. The flood myth is post humans populating the planet. The only other thing that can possibly make the flood myth credible is if you consider thousands of years ago, an individual culture would most likely belive that they made up the entire race of mankind. Even a reasonably small flood that killed an entire villiage may have been thought of as catastrophic, and preserved by any survivors and embelleshed orally for centuries to come until it was finally written down. A flood that destroyed a small villiage becomes "The Great Flood" that destroyed the entire human race. :nod:
I disagree. I think there was a huge flood. :)

[paleshadow]

Well, they were fascinated by the size of a phallus - there actually many stories about this, etc. The pic.s in the bathhouse and the whorehouse were the best LOL :eek:

Ah, the good ol' days!

[paleshadow]

I disagree. I think there was a huge flood. :)


I think there's an Easter Bunny.

[amber]

I think there's an Easter Bunny.
that's neat, but i've actually read and seen a lot about the subject. Not saying i'm right, just saying i'm probably right. Snark on, though :thumbsup: And for the record, I'm not religious.

[dissention]

You can even find people who "know" the holocaust was a big conspiracy. I guess it's less of what we know and more of what we chose to believe. ;)

Yeah, look no further than Mel Gibson and his daddy. :woohoo:

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, look no further than Mel Gibson and his daddy. :woohoo:

Well, I am unsure Mel ever said that :shrug:

Here is an article on this:

February 04, 2004

Mel Gibson, Holocaust Denier?

In the debates over Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion, one thing that has always been insisted by his defenders is that Gibson is not antisemitic and not a Holocaust Denier, even though his father apparently is. But is that really true? He was recently given a chance to demonstrate that and.... well, the results weren't very encouraging.

Peggy Noonan, a Catholic journalist, asked Gibson "You're going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" According to The New York Post, Gibson responded:

"I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Why is this a problematic response? Because not once does Gibson actually acknowledge that the Holocaust occurred - not once does he state that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews because they were Jews. Instead, he uses some fancy footwork that is common among sophisticated Holocaust Deniers. David Bernstein explains:

Holocaust deniers, at least the sophisticated ones, don't deny that Jews were sent to concentration camps, and don't deny that Jews suffered during the war, and perhaps suffered a bit disproportionately because they were Jews. What they do deny was that the Germans singled out the Jews for genocide, that millions of Jews were murdered, and that Jews were sent to death camps, not simply to labor or concentration camps. Nothing that Gibson said was inconsistent with the views of a Holocaust denier, and, indeed, as I pointed out, his statement sounds a lot like the stated views of the editor of the Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review. This all may be innocent on Gibson's part, and, if someone would ask him directly, "do you believe that the Germans murdered approximately six million Jews during World War II" and he said "yes" I would leave it at that. But given that he grew up in an anti-Semitic family, with a Holocaust-denying father, and has now asserted views that are very much consistent with the views of a Holocaust-denier, I can't say that my presumptions are with him at this point.

Gibson also said something else interesting during the interview:

Of his dad, Gibson says, "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
I wonder if that includes statements about the Jews and about the Holocaust?

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/061810.htm

That sounds like an acknowledgement that people were put in camps and suffered autrocities and were killed - he says that. The people that say say this statement supports that he denies or at least lessens the holocaust (the point is the same to these people) essentially say that because Gibson did not say that the Jews suffered more than anyone else, Gibson is denying (or lessening) the Holocaust. I do not get that from his statement - again, he acknowledges the Holocaust, the survivirs of it, and that autrocities were committed and people dies in the camps. But, apparently others are willing to spin it :shrug: The last point about his dad is also a little bit reaching. I mean he is talking about his dad. What is he supposed to say, the man is a lunatic and a liar :shrug: It is his father for goodness sake.

Note: I am not saying Gibson is not a jerk or that there are not people out there that wrongly deny the Holocaust ever happened. I am just saying Mel Gibson's comments do not support that he is one of those people :shrug:

Also, sorry for the rant, but this is one of those things where I just want to look at people and say "of course, the Jews in the concentration camps had it worse than anyone else EVER in the history of time - no one has ever or will EVER suffer like that again." I mean I totally get that Hitler was a horrible person and that being killed in the streets or hauled off to a concentration camp and tortured was a gross horrible thing - please do not think I am saying anything different than that. But, I think others suffered just as much in WWII and to put their suffering on the back burner is demeaning IMO. I mean the Serbs did things that horrified even the Nazis. For goodness sake, we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan that caused decades of suffering :shrug: I think that was Gibson's point.

Here is another site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson

[madformac]

actually 2012 will be when the world ends according to the codes so there's time for a Fleetwood Mac album AND solo albums.

2012? dude, that can't be right... Bush only has another 4 years left to make it happen right? :shrug:


:shocked: :wavey:

[Hawkeye]

Maybe his brother will finish the job, if he can't do it in 4 years.

[dissention]

Well, I am unsure Mel ever said that :shrug:

Here is an article on this:

February 04, 2004

Mel Gibson, Holocaust Denier?

In the debates over Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion, one thing that has always been insisted by his defenders is that Gibson is not antisemitic and not a Holocaust Denier, even though his father apparently is. But is that really true? He was recently given a chance to demonstrate that and.... well, the results weren't very encouraging.

Peggy Noonan, a Catholic journalist, asked Gibson "You're going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" According to The New York Post, Gibson responded:

"I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Why is this a problematic response? Because not once does Gibson actually acknowledge that the Holocaust occurred - not once does he state that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews because they were Jews. Instead, he uses some fancy footwork that is common among sophisticated Holocaust Deniers. David Bernstein explains:

Holocaust deniers, at least the sophisticated ones, don't deny that Jews were sent to concentration camps, and don't deny that Jews suffered during the war, and perhaps suffered a bit disproportionately because they were Jews. What they do deny was that the Germans singled out the Jews for genocide, that millions of Jews were murdered, and that Jews were sent to death camps, not simply to labor or concentration camps. Nothing that Gibson said was inconsistent with the views of a Holocaust denier, and, indeed, as I pointed out, his statement sounds a lot like the stated views of the editor of the Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review. This all may be innocent on Gibson's part, and, if someone would ask him directly, "do you believe that the Germans murdered approximately six million Jews during World War II" and he said "yes" I would leave it at that. But given that he grew up in an anti-Semitic family, with a Holocaust-denying father, and has now asserted views that are very much consistent with the views of a Holocaust-denier, I can't say that my presumptions are with him at this point.

Gibson also said something else interesting during the interview:

Of his dad, Gibson says, "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
I wonder if that includes statements about the Jews and about the Holocaust?

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/061810.htm


:shrug:

Not once does he admit the fact that the Holocaust happened and not once does he distance himself from his fathers comments. When asked by Diane Sawyer on Primetime Live about it back in February, he told her "Don't got there, Diane, don't go there."

So, please, where does he once acknowledge that the Holocaust happened? :confused: His own father has said that people were put in concentration camps and suffered atrocities, but he doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened.

[strandinthewind]

Maybe his brother will finish the job, if he can't do it in 4 years.

:eek: Jeb could give Noel the nuclear codes :eek:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

:shrug:

Not once does he admit the fact that the Holocaust happened and not once does he distance himself from his fathers comments. When asked by Diane Sawyer on Primetime Live about it back in February, he told her "Don't got there, Diane, don't go there."

So, please, where does he once acknowledge that the Holocaust happened? :confused: His own father has said that people were put in concentration camps and suffered atrocities, but he doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened.

No, his dad said that he thought less than 6 million people died or something like that. But, I could care a less about his dad. I am talking about Mel. In that quote he says he was taught by a Holocaust survivor with numbers on his arms and then he says people died in the concentration camps. how is that denying the Holocaust ever happened :shrug: To me, it is saying it happened. How can you be a survivir of something that never happened?

[dissention]

Also, sorry for the rant, but this is one of those things where I just want to look at people and say "of course, the Jews in the concentration camps had it worse than anyone else EVER in the history of time - no one has ever or will EVER suffer like that again." I mean I totally get that Hitler was a horrible person and that being killed in the streets or hauled off to a concentration camp and tortured was a gross horrible thing - please do not think I am saying anything different than that. But, I think others suffered just as much in WWII and to put their suffering on the back burner is demeaning IMO. I mean the Serbs did things that horrified even the Nazis. For goodness sake, we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan that caused decades of suffering :shrug: I think that was Gibson's point.

:shrug: The whole issue stems from the fact that Gibson's family is anti-semitic. Not anti-gypsy.

Gibson made no point. He couldn't bring himself to admit that the Holocaust occurred and instead made general statements based on irrefutable facts. it's what he didn't say that is the issue. It's what his father said and Gibson refused to distance himself from that is the issue.

[strandinthewind]

:shrug: The whole issue stems from the fact that Gibson's family is anti-semitic. Not anti-gypsy.

Gibson made no point. He couldn't bring himself to admit that the Holocaust occurred and instead made general statements based on irrefutable facts. it's what he didn't say that is the issue. It's what his father said and Gibson refused to distance himself from that is the issue.

Well, he said in another interview that his dad did not deny the Holocaust, but said that he thought less than 6 million people died - though he may have totally denied the entire thing elsewhere and I just did not read it :shrug: But the less than 6 million dying thing is different to me than denying the whole thing never happened. But, even if his dad denied the entire thing, Gibson clearly admits the Holocaust occurred in that quote. Again, how could his Spanish teacher survivie something that never occurred?

[dissention]

No, his dad said that he thought less than 6 million people died or something like that. But, I could care a less about his dad. I am talking about Mel. In that quote he says he was taught by a Holocaust survivor with numbers on his arms and then he says people died in the concentration camps. how is that denying the Holocaust ever happened :shrug: To me, it is saying it happened. How can you be a survivir of something that never happened?

It has to do with anti-semitism, Jason. You don't get that? That writer sure pinned the tail on the donkey when he said Gibson used "fancy footwork." Or should I remind us all that some of "The Passion" was based on the rantings of Anne Emmerich, a well-known anti-semite? Is it just a coincidence that he never makes mention of Jews suffering during the Holocaust? Is it just a ocincidence that he based his movie on anti-semite writings? Is it just a coincidence that his father is a raging anti-semite? No, no, and no. I was born at night, but not last night. :woohoo:

[strandinthewind]

It has to do with anti-semitism, Jason. You don't get that? That writer sure pinned the tail on the donkey when he said Gibson used "fancy footwork." Or should I remind us all that some of "The Passion" was based on the rantings of Anne Emmerich, a well-known anti-semite? Is it just a coincidence that he never makes mention of Jews suffering during the Holocaust? Is it just a ocincidence that he based his movie on anti-semite writings? Is it just a coincidence that his father is a raging anti-semite? No, no, and no. I was born at night, but not last night. :woohoo:

Oops - I edited while you posted :sorry:

I get that it has to do with anti-semitism and I get that people view Passion plays as just that - I, for the record do not and would like to add that Gibson purposefully softened the film in light of problems it could cause - a fact never pointed out by those attacking him mind you.

I am just saying that that quote does not express anti-semitism. I think he is acknowledging the Holocaust - again, how can someone survive something that never happened and he admits people suffered autrocities and that Jews dies in the camps - the article flatly states that. Again, it seems that anytime anyone ever suggests that the Jews (who BTW exclude the gays and others who were also in the camps) suffered as much as everyone else or at least some others is automatically branded as anti-semitic. I think that is BS - though the Jews did suffer and Hitler was a HORRIBLE person for rounding them up and putting them in camps - period. But, I think many people of all types suffered horrendous acts in WWII - which is what he is saying :shrug:

[dissention]

According to Gibson's papa:

"It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is."

Jews are out to create "one world religion and one world government."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/19/1077072756433.html?oneclick=true

According to Mel Gibson in the article you posted:

"The man never lied to me in his life."

[dissention]

I am just saying that that quote does not express anti-semitism. I think he is acknowledging the Holocaust - again, how can someone survive something that never happened and he admits people suffered autrocities and that Jews dies in the camps - the article flatly states that. Again, it seems that anytime anyone ever suggests that the Jews (who BTW exclude the gays and others who were also in the camps) suffered as much as everyone else or at least some others is automatically branded as anti-semitic. I think that is BS - though the Jews did suffer and Hitler was a HORRIBLE person for rounding them up and putting them in camps - period. But, I think many people of all types suffered horrendous acts in WWII - which is what he is saying :shrug:

I had never read his comments that you posted and I find them incredibly disturbing, unfortunately. :shrug: :sorry:

"Atrocities happened." "Some of them were Jews." Atrocities just happened and they just seemed to happen to some Jews? Is this what he's thinking in that head of his?

Mr. Gibson carefully and masterfully evaded intent, and that is what is disturbing.

[strandinthewind]

I had never read his comments that you posted and I find them incredibly disturbing, unfortunately. :shrug: :sorry:

"Atrocities happened." "Some of them were Jews." Atrocities just happened and they just seemed to happen to some Jews? Is this what he's thinking in that head of his?

Mr. Gibson carefully and masterfully evaded intent, and that is what is disturbing.

I think that is spin and rank spin at that. Again, he is flatly saying they happened, which they did - AND they did not just happen to Jews. I mean gay and other people were in those camps too :shrug: Many many other people suffered autrocities as well during WWII. I think that is what he saying. I do not think that is denying the Holocaust ever happened. I do not think that is denying that Hitler and others rouded people up and put them in camps - how can he be denying that when he notes the existence of the camps - I mean the Jews did not set up shop there willingly :shrug:

Also, he is not evading anything. He clearly says his teacher was a survivor of the Holocaust, which admits there must have been something to survive and that something was the Holocaust. He also admits the Jews were in the camps. How that is denying the Holocaust is just beyond me.

I guess I just take issue with the misuse of the word "deny" - e.g.,

Main Entry: de·ny
Pronunciation: di-'nI, dE-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): de·nied; de·ny·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French denier, from Latin denegare, from de- + negare to deny -- more at NEGATE
1 : to declare untrue
2 : to disclaim connection with or responsibility for : DISAVOW
3 a : to give a negative answer to b : to refuse to grant c : to restrain (oneself) from gratification of desires
4 archaic : DECLINE
5 : to refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of
- de·ny·ing·ly /-'nI-i[ng]-lE/ adverb
synonyms DENY, GAINSAY, CONTRADICT, CONTRAVENE mean to refuse to accept as true or valid. DENY implies a firm refusal to accept as true, to grant or concede, or to acknowledge the existence or claims of <denied the charges>. GAINSAY implies disputing the truth of what another has said <no one can gainsay her claims>. CONTRADICT implies an open or flat denial <her account contradicts his>. CONTRAVENE implies not so much an intentional opposition as some inherent incompatibility <laws that contravene tradition>.

http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=deny (emphasis supplied)

Maybe the better, but less sexy, phrase would be, Gibson seeks to lessen the plight of the Jews by noting there was other equal suffering in WWII :shrug:


Again, I am not saying Gibson is not anti-S - he probably is. I am just saying he is not denying the Holocaust - he admits it :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

According to Gibson's papa:

"It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is."

Jews are out to create "one world religion and one world government."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/19/1077072756433.html?oneclick=true

According to Mel Gibson in the article you posted:

"The man never lied to me in his life."

Again, that is hios father, what is he supposed to say. AND - that quote in that article is somewhat out of context because in another article containing the same quote, Gibson goes on to say his father never denied the Holocaust happened - he just took issue with some of the details.

In the end, you will never admit that your original statement that "denied" the Holocaust was incorrect, which it CLEARLY IS :wavey: - so what is the point :cool:

EDIT: I think Ginson is a nut case - all of the films I can think of that he produced (not acted in but produced) are overly violent IMO. Also, I think Gibson does not really like anyone who is not a Catholic, which is his right (who am I to tell him who is friends are :shrug: ) - Finally, I think Gibson has been tainted by his father - which I think is your point :cool:

[dissention]

Again, that is hios father, what is he supposed to say. AND - that quote in that article is somewhat out of context because in another article containing the same quote, Gibson goes on to say his father never denied the Holocaust happened - he just took issue with some of the details.

In the end, you will never admit that your original statement that "denied" the Holocaust was incorrect, which it CLEARLY IS :wavey: - so what is the point :cool:

EDIT: I think Ginson is a nut case - all of the films I can think of that he produced (not acted in but produced) are overly violent IMO. Also, I think Gibson does not really like anyone who is not a Catholic, which is his right (who am I to tell him who is friends are :shrug: ) - Finally, I think Gibson has been tainted by his father - which I think is your point :cool:

You know the point and I don't give a flying f*ck what "Gibson goes on to say." He can say his father was taken out of context all he wants, that doesn't make it true.

Gibson is a homophobe and an anti-semite who cleverly words his statements so that he doesn't have to admit the intent of the Holocaust. His father is an anti-semite who has been spewing filth for years, not just recently, and who Gibson says never told him a lie. Consider the sources, they're both pigs.

[dissention]

Again, I am not saying Gibson is not anti-S - he probably is. I am just saying he is not denying the Holocaust - he admits it :shrug:

No, he does not. By failing to admit intent, he fails to admit the Holocaust happened. It couldn't be any clearer. He selectively says that "some Jews" were put in concentration camps and passively says "atrocities happened." Gimme a break, he's nutjob and a Holocaust denier.

[strandinthewind]

No, he does not. By failing to admit intent, he fails to admit the Holocaust happened. It couldn't be any clearer. He selectively says that "some Jews" were put in concentration camps and passively says "atrocities happened." Gimme a break, he's nutjob and a Holocaust denier.

Again, he used the term "Holocaust" "survivor" - please explain that - I'm waiting :laugh:

I agree with you Gibson is a bad guy. But, he has never denied the Holocaust. You are just wrong here - go ahead and admit it - its okay I promise :laugh: :wavey:

I thinkl you want him to say Hitler put them in camps and killed them. Well, has anyone ever asked him that exact question. I have not read it. Have you?

[strandinthewind]

No, he does not. By failing to admit intent, he fails to admit the Holocaust happened. It couldn't be any clearer. He selectively says that "some Jews" were put in concentration camps and passively says "atrocities happened." Gimme a break, he's nutjob and a Holocaust denier.

Spin it on down :laugh:

[dissention]

Again, he used the term "Holocaust" "survivor" - please explain that - I'm waiting :laugh:

I agree with you Gibson is a bad guy. But, he has never denied the Holocaust. You are just wrong here - go ahead and admit it - its okay I promise :laugh: :wavey:

I thinkl you want him to say Hitler put them in camps and killed them. Well, has anyone ever asked him that exact question. I have not read it. Have you?

Believe what you want, dear, but you're wrong. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

You know the point and I don't give a flying f*ck what "Gibson goes on to say." He can say his father was taken out of context all he wants, that doesn't make it true.

Gibson is a homophobe and an anti-semite who cleverly words his statements so that he doesn't have to admit the intent of the Holocaust. His father is an anti-semite who has been spewing filth for years, not just recently, and who Gibson says never told him a lie. Consider the sources, they're both pigs.

While perhaps true - it does not mean they "denied" the Holocaust. Again, the use of deny means they said it never happened - at least according to the def. in M. Webster. But, the spinners use deny in their own way to make the already bad Gibsons sound worse. AND - I think calling someone a Holocaust survivor is acknowleging that the Holocaust happened. But, apparently you and others IMO foolishly do not :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Believe what you want, dear, but you're wrong. :wavey:

Was that an explanation of "Again, he used the term "Holocaust" "survivor" - please explain that - I'm waiting" - because if it was . . . :cool:

Dissention is wrong
Dissention is wrong
Dissention is wrong

AND Strandie caught him in it !!!!!! :wavey:

[celestenadia]

Cool musings...
MY personal favorite "learning channel" is Nickelodeon.
I've gotten some great history tips by watching reruns of The Flintstones.
I think it's neat how primitive man lived in peaceful coexistence with the dinosaurs;).
But seriously, my mother FORBADE us to watch The Flintstones when we were little. Biological falacies aside, she couldn't STAND the improper English.
:):):)
celestenadia

[dissention]

While perhaps true - it does not mean they "denied" the Holocaust. Again, the use of deny means they said it never happened - at least according to the def. in M. Webster. But, the spinners use deny in their own way to make the already bad Gibsons sound worse. AND - I think calling someone a Holocaust survivor is acknowleging that the Holocaust happened. But, apparently you and others IMO foolishly do not :shrug:

According to your beloved Webster, to deny is:

to declare untrue.

What did Senior Gibson say?

"It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is."

That sounds like denial to me, unless I just don't have a grasp of the English language. :shrug: Most of it is fiction. Right from the horse's mouth. He's denying the facts of the Holocaust.

[dissention]

Was that an explanation of "Again, he used the term "Holocaust" "survivor" - please explain that - I'm waiting" - because if it was . . . :cool:

Dissention is wrong
Dissention is wrong
Dissention is wrong

AND Strandie caught him in it !!!!!! :wavey:

You've failed to grasp my entire point about intent, which he refuses to admit. That is denial.

[strandinthewind]

According to your beloved Webster, to deny is:

to declare untrue.

What did Senior Gibson say?

"It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is."

That sounds like denial to me, unless I just don't have a grasp of the English language. :shrug: Most of it is fiction. Right from the horse's mouth. He's denying the facts of the Holocaust.

I have repeatedly said I am talking about Mel!

Nice try though

AND - maybe his father thinks some of it is fiction, so what - that is not denying it ever happened :shrug:

Again, nice try, but . . . . :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

You've failed to grasp my entire point about intent, which he refuses to admit. That is denial.


No, I did not. I said Mel is a cad and probably anti-S. But, intent or not and anti-S. or not, that is not what you originally posted and have maintained, which was Mel Gibson denied the Holocaust, which they clearly he did not, unless of course you do not think, as Mel does, that what happened in the camps were autrocities.

[dissention]

I have repeatedly said I am talking about Mel!

Nice try though

AND - maybe his father thinks some of it is fiction, so what - that is not denying it ever happened :shrug:

Again, nice try, but . . . . :laugh:

You said "they." :shrug:

I won't say Mel is in as much denial as his daddy, but they both are.

[dissention]

unless of course you do not think, as Mel does, that what happened in the camps were autrocities.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

You said "they." :shrug:

I won't say Mel is in as much denial as his daddy, but they both are.

No, in about three posts so far, I have said I could care a less about his father and was talking about Mel.

Again, nice try :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

You said "they." :shrug:

I won't say Mel is in as much denial as his daddy, but they both are.

I hear the ice a cracking :laugh: :wavey:

Who loves ya BABY!!!!! :cool:

[dissention]

AND - maybe his father thinks some of it is fiction, so what - that is not denying it ever happened :shrug:

What kind of cigarettes are you smoking tonight????

His father said most of it is fiction but he's not denying it happened??? If you can pull logic out of that statement, I want to hear it. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

What kind of cigarettes are you smoking tonight????

His father said most of it is fiction but he's not denying it happened??? If you can pull logic out of that statement, I want to hear it. :shrug:

I could care a less about his father. I am just talking about him because you are. I think his dad probably thinks it never happened at all much less as much as the Jews make it out to have happened and he is wrong. So, there is no need to talk about Pappa Gibson anymore. But, for the record, thinking something happened in a less severe manner is not denying it ever happened at all :shrug:

Mel, on the other hand, admits it happened and autrocities occured :shrug:

[paleshadow]

that's neat, but i've actually read and seen a lot about the subject. Not saying i'm right, just saying i'm probably right. Snark on, though :thumbsup: And for the record, I'm not religious.

But you haven't provided any fact to back up your claims? You haven't quoted any sources, or provided any hypothesis as to why a cataclysmic flood did occure. You've only said that you've read and seen things to suggest it. Again, say for example this week there was a flood of biblic perportions that wiped nearly all of mankind out and every living species, and thousands of years went by, everything that perished in that flood would be found in a single fossil layer. The fact that this type of fossil layer does not exist is among the strongest proof that a flood of this magnitude never occured.
Now, what can you offer that would support your view?

[celestenadia]

okay. thanks. And in no way was I talking about shows like "In Search Of" :rolleyes: :) Just for the Record...
When I was a little kid In Search Of was one of my favorite shows. It was TOO neat for me that SPOCK was the host. It was like,"Gee. This is what Spock does when he has off." Kinda like when you were little and you saw one of your schoolteachers on the street for the first time, like, "What? Miss Smith doesn't LIVE at school!"

[dissention]

I could care a less about his father.

Then why make illogical statements concerning his denial of the Holocaust? ;)

I'm done with this because you're making this into a ridiculous semantics argument when it isn't. If you're content to take every comment at face value, you're welcome to, but I'll look for deeper meanings based not only on their comments, but their actions. And both support the notion that they're a couple of disgusting Holocaust deniers and anti-semites.

So, carry on, I'm done. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Then why make illogical statements concerning his denial of the Holocaust? ;)

I'm done with this because you're making this into a ridiculous semantics argument when it isn't. If you're content to take every comment at face value, you're welcome to, but I'll look for deeper meanings based not only on their comments, but their actions. And both support the notion that they're a couple of disgusting Holocaust deniers and anti-semites.

So, carry on, I'm done. :wavey:

Well, no, I am not. I am saying nothing Mel has said supports your statements that he denied the Holocaust ever existed. You seem to want to look behind those statements at his intent. By all means do so. But, I think that deserves to be said before you make some blind and blanket statement that Mel Gibson denied the Holocaust :shrug: It is misleading. It sounds like you are saying Mel says it never happened, which is far from the truth.

As for his Mel's actions, he removed footage from the Passion that he thought would be offensive to the Jewish community. That certainly smacks of an uncaring and raging anti-S :rolleyes:

But, yes, we should stop because, unlike me, you will never admit you are wrong even when it is, as here, glaringly apparent :wavey:

[dissention]

As for his Mel's actions, he removed footage from the Passion that he thought would be offensive to the Jewish community. That certainly smacks of an uncaring and raging anti-S :rolleyes:

He removed a line of dialogue back in February. Jewish high priest Caiaphas said "His blood be on us and on our children" and Gibson cut it. Your point? He based the movie on Emmerich's "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ." He said that after reading her smut that he had undergone an "unusual influence." He even carries around one of her relics in his back pocket and whipped it out during the Diane Sawyer interview. :shrug:

For someone who is so concerned about offending people of Jewish faith, he sure is spending an awful lot of time devoting himself to a historical anti-semite. Or maybe he just knows that "some Jews" will be offended, just as "some Jews" were murdered during the Holocaust.

[strandinthewind]

He removed a line of dialogue back in February. Jewish high priest Caiaphas said "His blood be on us and on our children" and Gibson cut it. Your point? He based the movie on Emmerich's "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ." He said that after reading her smut that he had undergone an "unusual influence." He even carries around one of her relics in his back pocket and whipped it out during the Diane Sawyer interview. :shrug:

For someone who is so concerned about offending people of Jewish faith, he sure is spending an awful lot of time devoting himself to a historical anti-semite. Or maybe he just knows that "some Jews" will be offended, just as "some Jews" were murdered during the Holocaust.

I thought you were stopping :wavey:

BTW - some, but not all, Jews were killed in the Holocaust, which he admits - thus making your point moot :wavey:

[amber]

But you haven't provided any fact to back up your claims? You haven't quoted any sources, or provided any hypothesis as to why a cataclysmic flood did occure. You've only said that you've read and seen things to suggest it. Again, say for example this week there was a flood of biblic perportions that wiped nearly all of mankind out and every living species, and thousands of years went by, everything that perished in that flood would be found in a single fossil layer. The fact that this type of fossil layer does not exist is among the strongest proof that a flood of this magnitude never occured.
Now, what can you offer that would support your view?
Your right, i don't. It's really hard to remember the details of every damn thing i read and see. So far i remember reading Fingerprints of the Gods. I'll have to get back to you on the rest. Still, i'm sure it will be hard to come up with every thing i've seen and read on this. But at the various times, I drew opinions based on the scientific facts presented. And the evidence mounted up ( :laugh: ). Anyways, I know it's out there, so maybe, someday, i'll find it and present it. Great talking to you again!

[dissention]

I thought you were stopping :wavey:

I thought you'd have an argument to counteract my points about The Passion and Emmerich. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

I thought you'd have an argument to counteract my points about The Passion and Emmerich. :wavey:

I never argued it did not :shrug: I think his version "The Passion" is mostly faithful to the Gospels and the deviations are not really Anti-S. The largest deviation I saw was that creepy woman who was supposed to represent the devil or evil. I think that was silly and he should have left it out as it is not really in the Gospels that literally, etc.

I wish we could access the old "Passion" thread we did I guess last year. Jake (WE MISS YOU :angel: :xoxo: ) - there were some great points made in that thread. But, I think it is too old.

Again and so no one thinks differently, I think Gibson and, especially, his father are creepy creeps and I am not saying what happened in the Holocaust was not a deliberate and horrible, terrible, bad, and wrong thing - it was.

[dissention]

I wish we could access the old "Passion" thread we did I guess last year. Jake (WE MISS YOU :angel: :xoxo: ) - there were some great points made in that thread. But, I think it is too old.

I tried a few weeks ago and can't access them. If anyone else can, please post the links. :woohoo:

[strandinthewind]

I thought this was interesting and a little on point!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________________________________________________

December 19, 2004
FRANK RICH
2004: The Year of 'The Passion'
By FRANK RICH

WILL it be the Jews' fault if "The Passion of the Christ," ignored by the Golden Globes this week, comes up empty in the Oscar nominations next month? Why, of course.

"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular," William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, explained in a colloquy on the subject recently convened by Pat Buchanan on MSNBC. "It's not a secret, O.K.?" Mr. Donohue continued. "And I'm not afraid to say it. That's why they hate this movie. It's about Jesus Christ, and it's about truth." After the show's token (and conservative) Jewish panelist, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, pointed out that "Michael Moore is certainly not a Jew" and that Scorsese, Coppola and Lucas are not "Jewish names," Mr. Donohue responded: "I like Harvey Weinstein. How's that? Harvey Weinstein is my friend."


How's that? Not quite good enough. Surely Mr. Donohue knows that decorum in these situations requires that he cite a Jew as one of his "best friends," not merely a friend. For shame.


As we close the books on 2004, and not a moment too soon, it's clear that, as far as the culture goes, this year belonged to Mel Gibson's mammoth hit. Its prurient and interminable wallow in the Crucifixion, to the point where Jesus' actual teachings become mere passing footnotes to the sumptuously depicted mutilation of his flesh, is as representative of our time as "Godspell" was of terminal-stage hippiedom 30 years ago. The Gibson conflation of religion with violence reflects the universal order of the day — whether the verbal fisticuffs of the culture war within America, as exemplified by Mr. Donohue's rant on national television or, far more lethally, the savagery of the actual war that radical Islam brought to our doorstep on 9/11.


"The Passion" is a one-size-fits-all touchstone, it seems. It didn't just excite and anger a lot of moviegoers in our own country but also broke box-office records abroad, including in the Middle East. Most Arab governments censor films that depict prophets (Jesus included), even banning recent benign Hollywood products like the Jim Carrey vehicle "Bruce Almighty" and the animated musical "Prince of Egypt." But an exception was made for Mr. Gibson's blood fest nearly everywhere. It was seen in Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Among the satisfied customers last spring was Yasser Arafat, who called the film "moving and historical" — a thumb's up that has not, to my knowledge, yet surfaced in the film's low-key Oscar campaign.


Arafat's animus was clear enough; an aide said at the time that he likened Jesus' suffering, as depicted in "The Passion," to that of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel. Our domestic culture war over religion is not so easily explained.


You'd think peace might reign in a nation where there is so much unanimity of faith. In Newsweek's "Birth of Jesus" holiday cover article — not to be confused with Time's competing "Secrets of the Nativity" cover — a poll found that 84 percent of American adults call themselves Christian, 82 percent see Jesus as the son of God, and 79 percent believe in the Virgin Birth. Though by a far slimmer margin, the presidential election reinstalled a chief executive who ostentatiously invokes a Christian Almighty. As for "The Passion of the Christ," it achieved the monetary landslide of a $370 million domestic gross (second only to the cartoon saviors Shrek and Spider-Man).


Yet if you watch the news and listen to certain politicians, especially since Election Day, you'll hear an ever-growing drumbeat that Christianity is under siege in America. Like Mr. Gibson, the international movie star who portrayed himself as a powerless martyr to a shadowy anti- Christian conspiracy in the run-up to the release of "The Passion," his fellow travelers on the right detect a sinister plot — of secularists, "secular Jews" and "elites" — out to destroy the religion followed by more than four out of every five Americans.


In the latest and most bizarre twist on this theme, even Christmas is now said to be a target of the anti-Christian mob. "Are we going to abolish the word Christmas?" asked Newt Gingrich, warning that "it absolutely can happen here." Among those courageously leading the fight to save the holiday from its enemies is Bill O'Reilly, who has taken to calling the Anti-Defamation League "an extremist group" and put the threat this way: "Remember, more than 90 percent of American homes celebrate Christmas. But the small minority that is trying to impose its will on the majority is so vicious, so dishonest — and has to be dealt with."


If more than 90 percent of American households celebrate Christmas, you have to wonder why the guy is whining. The only evidence of what Pat Buchanan has called Christmas-season "hate crimes against Christianity" consists of a few ridiculous and isolated incidents, like the banishment of a religious float from a parade in Denver and of religious songs from a high school band concert in New Jersey. (In scale, this is nothing compared with the refusal of the world's largest retailer, Wal- Mart, to stock George Carlin's new best seller, "When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?," whose cover depicts its author at the Last Supper.) Yet the hysteria is being pumped up daily by Fox News, newspapers like The New York Post and The Washington Times, and Web sites like savemerrychristmas.org. Mr. O'Reilly and Jerry Falwell have gone so far as to name Michael Bloomberg an anti-Christmas conspirator because the mayor referred to the Christmas tree as a "holiday tree" in the lighting ceremony at Rockefeller Center.


What is this about? How can those in this country's overwhelming religious majority maintain that they are victims in a fiery battle with forces of darkness? It is certainly not about actual victimization. Christmas is as pervasive as it has ever been in America, where it wasn't even declared a federal holiday until after the Civil War. What's really going on here is yet another example of a post-Election-Day winner-takes-all power grab by the "moral values" brigade. As Mr. Gibson shrewdly contrived his own crucifixion all the way to the bank, trumping up nonexistent threats to his movie to hype it, so the creation of imagined enemies and exaggerated threats to Christianity by "moral values" mongers of the right has its own secular purpose. The idea is to intimidate and marginalize anyone who objects to their efforts to impose the most conservative of Christian dogma on public policy. If you're against their views, you don't have a differing opinion — you're anti-Christian (even if you are a Christian).


The power of this minority within the Christian majority comes from its exaggerated claims on the Bush election victory. It is enhanced further by a news culture, especially on television, that gives the Mel Gibson wing of Christianity more say than other Christian voices and that usually ignores minority religions altogether. This is not just a Fox phenomenon. Something is off when NBC's "Meet the Press" and ABC's "This Week," mainstream TV shows both, invite religious leaders to discuss "values" in the aftermath of the election and limit that discussion to all-male panels composed exclusively of either evangelical ministers or politicians with pseudo-spiritual credentials. Does Mr. Falwell, who after 9/11 blamed Al Qaeda's attack partly on "the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians," speak for any sizable group of American Christians? Does the Rev. Al Sharpton, booked on TV as a "balance" to Mr. Falwell, do so either? Mr. Sharpton doesn't even have a congregation; like Mr. Falwell, he is a politician first, a religious leader second (or maybe fourth or fifth).


Gary Bauer and James Dobson are also secular political figures, not religious leaders, yet they are more frequently called upon to play them on television than actual clergy are. "It's theological correctness," says the Rev. Debra Haffner, a Unitarian Universalist minister who directs a national interfaith group, the Religious Institute on Sexual Morality, Justice and Healing, and is one of the rare progressive religious voices to get any TV time. She detects an overall "understanding" in the media that religion "is one voice — fundamentalist." That understanding may have little to do with the beliefs of television news producers — or even the beliefs of fundamentalists themselves — and more to do with the raw, secular political power that the press has attributed to "values" crusaders since the election. "There is the belief that the conservative view won, and the media are more interested in winners," says Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice.


Even more important than inflated notions of the fundamentalists' power may be their entertainment value. As Ms. Kissling points out, the 50 million Americans who belong to progressive religious organizations are rarely represented on television because "progressive religious leaders are so tolerant that they don't make good TV." The Rev. Bob Chase of the United Church of Christ agrees: "We're not exciting guests." His church's recent ad trumpeting its inclusion of gay couples was rejected by the same networks that routinely give a forum to the far more dramatic anti-gay views of Mr. Falwell. Ms. Kissling laments that contemporary progressive Christians lack an intellectual star to rival Reinhold Niebuhr or William Sloane Coffin, but adds that today "Jesus Christ would have a tough time getting covered by TV if he didn't get arrested."


This paradigm is everywhere in our news culture. When Jon Stewart went on CNN's "Crossfire" to demand that its hosts stop "hurting America" by turning news and political debate into a form of pro wrestling, it may have sounded a bit hyperbolic. "Crossfire" is an aging show that few watch. But his broader point holds up: it's all crossfire now. In the electronic news sphere where most Americans live much of the time, anyone who refuses to engage in combat is quickly sent packing as a bore.


Toss the issue of religion into that 24/7 wrestling match, as into any conflict in human history, and the incendiary possibilities are limitless. When even phenomena as innocuous as Oscar nominations or the lighting of a Christmas tree can be inflated into divisive religious warfare, it's only a matter of time before someone uncovers an anti-Christian plot in "White Christmas." It avoids any mention of religion and it was, as William Donohue might be the first to point out, written by a secular Jew.

from www.nytimes.com

[SuzeQuze]

:shrug:

Not once does he admit the fact that the Holocaust happened and not once does he distance himself from his fathers comments. When asked by Diane Sawyer on Primetime Live about it back in February, he told her "Don't got there, Diane, don't go there."

So, please, where does he once acknowledge that the Holocaust happened? :confused: His own father has said that people were put in concentration camps and suffered atrocities, but he doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened.

I can't get my head around this. How can they beleive that Jews were put to death in camps but the holocaust didn't happen?

[dissention]

I thought this was interesting and a little on point!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________________________________________________

December 19, 2004
FRANK RICH
2004: The Year of 'The Passion'
By FRANK RICH

WILL it be the Jews' fault if "The Passion of the Christ," ignored by the Golden Globes this week, comes up empty in the Oscar nominations next month? Why, of course.

"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular," William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, explained in a colloquy on the subject recently convened by Pat Buchanan on MSNBC. "It's not a secret, O.K.?" Mr. Donohue continued. "And I'm not afraid to say it. That's why they hate this movie. It's about Jesus Christ, and it's about truth." After the show's token (and conservative) Jewish panelist, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, pointed out that "Michael Moore is certainly not a Jew" and that Scorsese, Coppola and Lucas are not "Jewish names," Mr. Donohue responded: "I like Harvey Weinstein. How's that? Harvey Weinstein is my friend."

Donohue? He doesn't know **** about **** and he's crazier than ****house rat.

Methinks he's greatly exaggerating what it's like in Hollywood, but that's just me. I don't think The Passion OR F9/11 will be Oscar contenders. I think Hollywood will shy away from both.

I was very pleased that The Passion was left out of the Golden Globes, too. :thumbsup:

[GypsySorcerer]

Donohue? He doesn't know **** about **** and he's crazier than ****house rat.

Methinks he's greatly exaggerating what it's like in Hollywood, but that's just me. I don't think The Passion OR F9/11 will be Oscar contenders. I think Hollywood will shy away from both.

I was very pleased that The Passion was left out of the Golden Globes, too. :thumbsup:

Why haven't I heard of this Donohue guy? Is he really that prominent?

[DrummerDeanna]

Why haven't I heard of this Donohue guy? Is he really that prominent?

Seriously -I've never heard of him either - seems he's a few bananas short of a bunch though....great - will he be the Catholic's Jerry Falwell??

[GypsySorcerer]

Seriously -I've never heard of him either - seems he's a few bananas short of a bunch though....great - will he be the Catholic's Jerry Falwell??

:distress: I hope not.

[cliffdweller]

I think its fair to say thats the deadline for Lindsey's next solo album :laugh:

~Alex

Yes, it will be his solo album that signals the apocalypse. :laugh:

[cliffdweller]

Well, there is and there is not :shrug: There is evidence of a HUGE event happening thousands of years ago (actually evidence exists to support a few such events over the last several million years) - Many think the event was an asteroid hitting the Earth and causing the Earth to shift a few degrees on her axis - thus causing the formerly floral Sarah Desert to form. Here are some sites - take them for what you will and there are more if you google, etc.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4168.asp

http://www.myfortress.org/archaeology.html

http://www.thinkquest.org/library/site_sum.html?tname=29178&url=29178/noahand.htm

http://www.icr.org/creationproducts/Age_of_Earth2FFlood.html

Again, there are MANY theories on this :cool:


Leave it to you to provide the links and a seven page biopic!! :laugh: :xoxo:

[SuzeQuze]

Leave it to you to provide the links and a seven page biopic!! :laugh: :xoxo:

For real, how DOES he do it?

[strandinthewind]

I can't get my head around this. How can they beleive that Jews were put to death in camps but the holocaust didn't happen?

From what I can tell, they think Jews were killed in the camps (after all Gibson says that in that quote) - I think people take issue with what they perceive as the maginalizing of the Jews suffering. They say that yes the Jews suffered but so did everyone else. For some reason, this is perceived as denying the Holocause existed - ever. I do not get it, but it is a popular belief. They also take issue with the 6 million killed. They think it is less. Who knows for sure how many people were killed :shrug: But, most sources point to around 6 million. My point is everyone did suffer in WWII and Jews were not the only people in the camps - gay an other people were there as well.

This is such a touchy subject for alot of people. So, for the record - I think what Hitler did to the Jews, gay people, and Europe and the South Pacific was horrible on all levels. He was an evil maniac who persecuted the Jews and others and for that he can never be forgiven.

[amber]

From what I can tell, they think Jews were killed in the camps (after all Gibson says that in that quote) - I think people take issue with what they perceive as the maginalizing of the Jews suffering. They say that yes the Jews suffered but so did everyone else. For some reason, this is perceived as denying the Holocause existed - ever. I do not get it, but it is a popular belief. They also take issue with the 6 million killed. They think it is less. Who knows for sure how many people were killed :shrug: But, most sources point to around 6 million. My point is everyone did suffer in WWII and Jews were not the only people in the camps - gay an other people were there as well.

This is such a touchy subject for alot of people. So, for the record - I think what Hitler did to the Jews, gay people, and Europe and the South Pacific was horrible on all levels. He was an evil maniac who persecuted the Jews and others and for that he can never be forgiven.
The real bad part is that the U.S. didn't really have a gripe with Hitler, just that he was doing it so quickly. And we continued selling war machinery to them while we were fighting them. The business of capitalism must go on, y'know. And Henry Ford, who was a raging anti semite, built the engines for one of the germans top destructive bombs - neat-o!

[DrummerDeanna]

The real bad part is that the U.S. didn't really have a gripe with Hitler, just that he was doing it so quickly. And we continued selling war machinery to them while we were fighting them. The business of capitalism must go on, y'know. And Henry Ford, who was a raging anti semite, built the engines for one of the germans top destructive bombs - neat-o!


Wow - really? Crazy...good thing I've never like Ford...blah...

[amber]

Wow - really? Crazy...good thing I've never like Ford...blah...
yeah. We had just hoped Hitler would go on a slower, less obvious plan. Like "d'oh! you bombed Poland! be careful!" and then like "d'oh, you're in France!!?? ease up buddy!" And then, of course, he started bombing the **** out of England, so we had to care. Also, even though Russia was supposedly our ally during the war, and Germany et. al. our enemy, we did much more trade with Germany during those years. Also, during the Nuremburg trials, the people from the CIA (only i don't think it was called CIA then) hand picked the SS war criminal officers to head up our West German spy plans. So, really, the real higher ups weren't at that trial.

[DrummerDeanna]

yeah. We had just hoped Hitler would go on a slower, less obvious plan. Like "d'oh! you bombed Poland! be careful!" and then like "d'oh, you're in France!!?? ease up buddy!" And then, of course, he started bombing the **** out of England, so we had to care. Also, even though Russia was supposedly our ally during the war, and Germany et. al. our enemy, we did much more trade with Germany during those years. Also, during the Nuremburg trials, the people from the CIA (only i don't think it was called CIA then) hand picked the SS war criminal officers to head up our West German spy plans. So, really, the real higher ups weren't at that trial.


Well - my surprise was intended soley for the Henry Ford part - but thanks for the expanded stuff :D the WWII era is one of the most fascinating to me - I've always wanted to start reading more on it - just haven't gotten around to it yet :p :wavey:

[amber]

Well - my surprise was intended soley for the Henry Ford part - but thanks for the expanded stuff :D the WWII era is one of the most fascinating to me - I've always wanted to start reading more on it - just haven't gotten around to it yet :p :wavey:
oops, TMI. :laugh:

[BTFLCHLD]

I watched this last evening...and would recommend for those interested.

<img src="http://tinypic.com/xajxc">

From Steven Spielberg and Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation comes Broken Silence, a series of five films about human courage, heroism, and triumph over intense adversities during World War II. This critically acclaimed series was produced by Academy Award-winning filmmaker James Moll.

Some Who Lived

Argentine filmmaker Luis Puenzo (director of the Academy Award-winning film, The Official Story) directed this Spanish-language film, weaving together testimonies from Holocaust survivors now living in Argentina and Uruguay with archival and modern-day footage. Puenzo also explores the connections between Nazism and the darker chapters of Argentine history.

Eyes of the Holocaust

Director Janos Szasz, the son of Holocaust survivors, made this Hungarian-language documentary that focuses on the experiences of survivors who were children during the Holocaust.

Children from the Abyss

Russian Holocaust survivors detail their experiences of resistance, betrayal, collaborators, rescuers, bystanders and the desire for revenge. Directed by Pavel Chukhraj (Academy Award Nominee for his film, The Thief).

I Remember

Academy Award Honoree, Andrzej Wajda directed this Polish-language documentary about four survivors who were either helped or betrayed by their Polish neighbors.

Hell on Earth

Renowned Czech filmmaker Vojtech Jasny directed this Czech-language documentary, a look at Theresienstadt, the "model" Czech ghetto set up by the Nazis to deceive the world about how well the Jews were treated.

[strandinthewind]

Well, it was not just Ford or America for that matter :shrug:

Here are some articles:

http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_nastybiz.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/week6_economicrecovery.htm

I think it is important to remember that it is easy to see in hindsight what went on. Many people in the beginning thought Hitler was going to save Germany from its financial ruin, etc. Plus, most of the financial dealing with Germany were perfectly legal. If they knew what was going on though - then that is morally horrible.

[amber]

Well, it was not just Ford or America for that matter :shrug:

Here are some articles:

http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_nastybiz.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/week6_economicrecovery.htm

I think it is important to remember that it is easy to see in hindsight what went on. Many people in the beginning thought Hitler was going to save Germany from its financial ruin, etc. Plus, most of the financial dealing with Germany were perfectly legal. If they knew what was going on though - then that is morally horrible.
It's pretty well documented that the administration absolutely did know, but our official line, of course, was "we thought they work work concentration camps, we didn't know they were death camps." Bulsh**! We were stoked about fascism in germany, cause fascism is about as far away as you can get from communism.

[seeker007nmss]

If you really want to get disgusted look into how hitler got most of his cash to rearm germany. (two word clue......Vatican Bank)

[strandinthewind]

If you really want to get disgusted look into how hitler got most of his cash to rearm germany. (two word clue......Vatican Bank)

Yep - along with others :nod:

Here is an article - a google search will reveal many more :cool:

Nazi-Era Victims Want UN to Investigate Vatican
By Patrick Goodenough
CNS London Bureau Chief
29 June, 2000

(CNSNews.com) - The Vatican, with its permanent observer status at the United Nations under fire, may now face a challenge from survivors of Nazi-era war crimes in the Balkans.

Serb and Jewish survivors of atrocities committed by the Nazi-installed puppet regime in wartime Croatia have asked U.N. secretary-general Kofi Annan to investigate their claims that the Vatican and a Roman Catholic monastic order collaborated with the perpetrators.

In an open letter issued through their lawyers, the victims - who are bringing a class action lawsuit against the Vatican Bank and the Franciscan order - urged Annan to persuade the Vatican to open its wartime archives, or face "appropriate action" to encourage them to do so.

The Vatican enjoys permanent observer status at the U.N., while Franciscans International is a recognized non-governmental organization at the U.N.

The Vatican's status is currently under fire from a coalition of pro-abortion, feminist and other organizations, spearheaded by a Catholic "pro-choice" group, campaigning to have it revoked, charging that the Holy See's statehood is legally questionable.

The groups are incensed at the Vatican's consistent opposition in U.N. forums to measures that would liberalize abortion and contraception, particularly in developing countries.

The group of victims and relatives of victims who are bringing the lawsuit in a San Francisco district court currently number 25. They come from the United States, Yugoslavia and the Ukraine, said their attorney, Jonathan Levy.

Papers have been served on the Vatican Bank, the Franciscans, and were soon to be served on the Croatian Liberation Movement, which Levy said was understood to be the "direct successors to the Ustashe" - the wartime fascist organization which ruled Croatia.

The suit alleges that gold and other assets worth about $170 million today, not including interest, were looted by the Ustashe and safeguarded by the Vatican after World War II.

In their letter to Annan, the victims charge that some members of the Franciscan order collaborated with the Ustashe, were actively involved in atrocities, and knowingly helped wanted Ustashe war criminals, including its notorious leader Ante Pavelic, to escape justice after the war.

They say the Vatican organized and financed the "rat line" which enabled leading Nazis and Ustashe members to escape to Latin America. The escape route was allegedly partly funded by assets stolen from concentration camp and other victims, looted by the Ustashe, and removed to the Vatican.

The Vatican and Franciscans have consistently denied involvement in these activities.

Pope Pius XII's alleged silence in the face of Nazi genocide has long sparked controversy. His defenders say he spoke out in Christmas Eve homilies during 1941 and 1942 against the extermination of Jews.

Many European Christians, Catholics and Protestant, took a stance against the Nazis during the war. Thousands of Catholics, including clergymen, were murdered by the Nazis because of their opposition to Hitler.

The Nazis installed the Ustashe in power in Croatia after Yugoslavia fell to the Nazis in April 1941. More than 600,000 people - Serbs, Jews and Roma (gypsies) - were killed in the Balkans by the fascist regime.

Those bringing the lawsuit say family and community members were subject to "mass rape, beheadings, torture, mutilations, burnings, establishment of concentration and forced labor camps, destruction of Orthodox Churches and Jewish Synagogues, and looting of assets valued in the hundreds of millions by the Ustashe and Franciscans."

They wrote to Annan: "Unlike every other civilized nation the Vatican has refused to acknowledge its complicity in genocide and has refused repeated requests by the United States government, Jewish and Roma organizations to open its World War II archives to public scrutiny."

Levy said the plaintiffs were seeking access to more than 250 U.S. Army Intelligence documents on one Krunoslav Draganavich, believed to have been the head of the Vatican operation which laundered Ustashe funds and smuggled Nazis out of Europe.

Some "heavily sanitized" documents had been released to the attorneys, he said, but Army Intelligence withheld over 250 documents on grounds of "national security."

"We are appealing this decision through an administrative process and if unsuccessful will go to Federal Court."

A 1998 State Department report entitled "The Fate of the Wartime Ustasha Treasury" implicated the Vatican and Franciscans is a number of postwar crimes now being cited by the lawsuit plaintiffs.

Wartime documents raise questions

Recently a London newspaper published previously undiscovered documents which showed that Britain's wartime leader, Winston Churchill asked a prominent British Catholic family in 1940 to lobby the Vatican at the time to denounce the Nazis and support the Allied cause.

The Sunday Telegraph said the discovery of the 1940 papers "undermine the arguments of papal apologists who claim that the Allies understood the reasons for the Pope's silence because they appreciated he was in an impossible position."

One letter, from former Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax, warned that Pope Pius XII's stance left Catholics with the impression that a Europe dominated by Hitler was the Pope's preferred outcome to the war.

"If the Catholics of, say, Belgium, Holland and France could be persuaded that somehow Nazism was reconcilable with their religious faith and moral outlook, then a potentially powerful center of resistance to Nazi plans of domination would be removed," Halifax wrote to Lord Fitzalan, a leading Catholic and former Conservative lawmaker.

One Foreign Office telegram questioned the wisdom of the Vatican's stance.

"What in the day of triumph for justice and fair-dealing will be the feeling of Catholics the world over towards the church if it can be said of it that after at first standing against Nazi paganism it eventually agreed by its silence to assist in discrediting the principles upon which it is founded?"

The London Times last month cited newly-found documents showing that Britain's Minister to the Holy See, Francis D'Arcy Godolphin Osborne, had given the Vatican a daily report of Nazi atrocities, starting in 1940.

Last April, Stuart Eizenstat, U.S. special representative and secretary of state for Holocaust issues, told the Senate foreign relations committee that the Vatican had "authorized a group of Jewish and Catholic scholars to thoroughly review its collection of published documents from the Nazi era."

He welcomed the step and expressed the hope that it would "lead to additional measures for archival openness."

But it is unpublished records that Jewish scholars would like to see, rather than an 11-volume work commissioned by the Vatican and published by four Jesuit priests in the 1980s.

Israeli government minister Natan Sharansky urged Pope John Paul II earlier this year to open the wartime records.

"As long as the Vatican archives are off-limits to historians and survivors, the full truth will remain elusive, thereby casting a shadow over efforts toward Jewish-Catholic rapprochement," he wrote.


http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/CNS.htm

[dissention]

If you really want to get disgusted look into how hitler got most of his cash to rearm germany. (two word clue......Vatican Bank)

And Prescott Bush, Dubya's grandpappy. ;) :p

[strandinthewind]

And Prescott Bush, Dubya's grandpappy. ;) :p

I know - but and again, almost all American businesses and businesses around the world were doing the same thing :shrug: :wavey: I often wonder how many of our ancestors were involved in that type of thing or whether they benefoted from it in some way like owning GM or Ford stock, working in the factories, owning stock in companies making money off of these other companies, etc. It really is scary of ya think about it :cool:

[amber]

I know - but and again, almost all American businesses and businesses around the world were doing the same thing :shrug: :wavey: I often wonder how many of our ancestors were involved in that type of thing or whether they benefoted from it in some way like owning GM or Ford stock, working in the factories, owning stock in companies making money off of these other companies, etc. It really is scary of ya think about it :cool:
good thing mine came in the '20's without speaking the language and didn't have the opportunity to get involved with that dirty, dirty money... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :laugh:

[dissention]

I know - but and again, almost all American businesses and businesses around the world were doing the same thing :shrug: :wavey:

And no one is arguing against that. :wavey:

I just like to parade the fact that the Bush family enabled Adolf Hitler and owned a bank that served as a front for the Nazi's. :woohoo:

[dissention]

good thing mine came in the '20's without speaking the language and didn't have the opportunity to get involved with that dirty, dirty money... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :laugh:

Ah, most of the money that his grandpappy made while doing business with the Nazi's was put in a nice trust for Dubya. Seeing as how Dubya is so religious, he should have just refused to accept such blood money. :p

[strandinthewind]

And no one is arguing against that. :wavey:

I just like to parade the fact that the Bush family enabled Adolf Hitler and owned a bank that served as a front for the Nazi's. :woohoo:

I know - and I like pointing out that pretty much everyone in one way or the other has benefited from that tainted money :cool:

Again, in the beginning, Hitler was well received in the world - which is VERY scary :eek:

[dissention]

Again, in the beginning, Hitler was well received in the world - which is VERY scary :eek:

I guess it gives us a glimmer of hope when you consider that Dubya has never been well-received. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

I guess it gives us a glimmer of hope when you consider that Dubya has never been well-received. :laugh:

Amen brother - AMEN!!!! :xoxo:

[amber]

Ah, most of the money that his grandpappy made while doing business with the Nazi's was put in a nice trust for Dubya. Seeing as how Dubya is so religious, he should have just refused to accept such blood money. :p
Bwah!!!!! :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

[dissention]

Bwah!!!!! :laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

His favorite philosopher is Jesus Christ, after all. :woohoo:

[amber]

His favorite philosopher is Jesus Christ, after all. :woohoo:
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:
Stop, Stop!!!

[strandinthewind]

His favorite philosopher is Jesus Christ, after all. :woohoo:

Well, Christ was philosophical :shrug: Are you saying He was not a philosopher?

[amber]

Well, Christ was philosophical :shrug: Are you saying He was not a philosopher?
Wait, I thought he was a Carpenter? how many jobs did this Jesus guy have?
sheesh. :laugh: J/K.

[wondergirl9847]

He was a carpenter, a policeman (remember he turned over the money tables at the temple), a philosopher, a magician (performing miracles including turning water to wine and walking on water), a preacher, and a doctor (healing people physically, mentally and spiritually).

[strandinthewind]

He was a carpenter, a policeman (remember he turned over the money tables at the temple), a philosopher, a magician (performing miracles including turning water to wine and walking on water), a preacher, and a doctor (healing people physically, mentally and spiritually).

Amen - AND - even if you do not bleieve He ever existed - the character in the Story and His life are still a GREAT example to live your life by :shrug:

[estranged4life]

Amen - AND - even if you do not bleieve He ever existed - the character in the Story and His life are still a GREAT example to live your life by :shrug:

he single handedly created the long haired, goatee rock & roll look :thumbsup:

Brian "Jesus-Lord, Savior & original Rocker lookin' dude" j.

[strandinthewind]

he single handedly created the long haired, goatee rock & roll look :thumbsup:

Brian "Jesus-Lord, Savior & original Rocker lookin' dude" j.

LMAO - only you only you!!!!!!


Happy Holidays to you and Debbie my friend!!!!

Also - my friend who is into metal and I drank SEVERAL to Dimebag tonight - I thought of you {{{Hugs}}}

Jason

[estranged4life]

LMAO - only you only you!!!!!!


Happy Holidays to you and Debbie my friend!!!!

Also - my friend who is into metal and I drank SEVERAL to Dimebag tonight - I thought of you {{{Hugs}}}

Jason

I betcha Dimebag and the Big J are probably hanging out in Heaven even as we speak...I'm sure DBD is teaching "J" how to do his patented "False Harmonic" scream on the guitar and of course Jesus will probably screw up and say "Dammit, This is hard to pull off...It's so hard, I mean Jesus-A-Christ, Oh wait, I am Jesus Christ...Hehehehe!!!"

Brian "Coming soon, Jesus Christ the Lord will be covering the Soundgarden classic "Jesus Christ Pose" on a "Jesus does Metal" K-Tel album" j.

[amber]

I betcha Dimebag and the Big J are probably hanging out in Heaven even as we speak...I'm sure DBD is teaching "J" how to do his patented "False Harmonic" scream on the guitar and of course Jesus will probably screw up and say "Dammit, This is hard to pull off...It's so hard, I mean Jesus-A-Christ, Oh wait, I am Jesus Christ...Hehehehe!!!"

Brian "Coming soon, Jesus Christ the Lord will be covering the Soundgarden classic "Jesus Christ Pose" on a "Jesus does Metal" K-Tel album" j.
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:

[dissention]

Well, Christ was philosophical :shrug: Are you saying He was not a philosopher?

If you believe in Christ, Jason. ;)

I can easily say that he was not a philosopher because I believe Christ to be a myth and not an actual person, but that's not why I mentioned it. His answer to that question was so calculated and cunning, it was only meant to drum up religious support. I don't think he believes what he said at all, just as I don't believe him to be a very religious man. :)

[strandinthewind]

If you believe in Christ, Jason. ;)

I can easily say that he was not a philosopher because I believe Christ to be a myth and not an actual person, but that's not why I mentioned it. His answer to that question was so calculated and cunning, it was only meant to drum up religious support. I don't think he believes what he said at all, just as I don't believe him to be a very religious man. :)

I agree W and most politicians for that matter use Christ in that manner.

BTW - even if you disagree Christ lived, the "fictional" Person was still a philosopher - I mean can't philosoper's exist in fiction - well wasn't that a philosophical if not Socratic question for me to ask :laugh:

[wondergirl9847]

Brian, that is greatness!! Jesus was the first rebel because He went against all the rules and what they said couldn't be done, He said "Oh yes, it can."

There was a guy in high school I interviewed (I was on the yearbook staff and did an article on hairstyles that year) and he had really long hair, so I asked him who inspired his style and he said Jesus. :thumbsup:

[amber]

If you believe in Christ, Jason. ;)

I can easily say that he was not a philosopher because I believe Christ to be a myth and not an actual person, but that's not why I mentioned it. His answer to that question was so calculated and cunning, it was only meant to drum up religious support. I don't think he believes what he said at all, just as I don't believe him to be a very religious man. :)
As far as i can tell, most historians acknowledge that he was a real person, if not a person who did what everyone said he did. :confused: you are saying that you think he never actually existed, right?

[estranged4life]

Brian, that is greatness!! Jesus was the first rebel because He went against all the rules and what they said couldn't be done, He said "Oh yes, it can."

There was a guy in high school I interviewed (I was on the yearbook staff and did an article on hairstyles that year) and he had really long hair, so I asked him who inspired his style and he said Jesus. :thumbsup:

I have the whole long haired "Jesus look" thing goin' on now (I chopped my hair off about 3 years ago when it was about the same length as it is now).

Not to thread-jack this thread, But I remember hating the yearbook staff for my High School, Especially when they asked the clique I hung with if we wanted our picture taken for the 1988 yearbook, To which we agreed to do...But when the ignorant ____ asked us "to smile and say cheese" we (In tandem) said "F**k you" and shot 'em the bird...I guess they, for some unknown reason that picture never made the yearbook!!!

Now back to the regularly scheduled Thread, "Jesus-The Original Metalhead or just a Tree Huggin' Hippy" :thumbsup:

Brian "I wonder if Jesus would do the whole Grateful Dead hippy thing???" j.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Brian "I wonder if Jesus would do the whole Grateful Dead hippy thing???" j.

I truly believe if Jesus came down to Earth and saw the likes of Falwell, Robertson, and the newer neocons - His wrath would be limitless. The things they do in His name have NOTHING to do with His teachings. I mean they advocate war - something Christ specifically did not condone when He said "tirn the other cheek" :shrug: Moreover, He certainly did not go around MAKING people believe in His teachings by forcing the govt. to sponsor Him and Him alone. Finally, He certainly would be appalled at the people who have made BILLIONS in His name and give back a fraction thereof so they can have their private planes and mansions. So, I think Christ would have been a hippie and anti-establishment - just as He was when He walked the Earth 2000 or so years ago :cool:

[estranged4life]

I truly believe if Jesus came down to Earth and saw the likes of Falwell, Robertson, and the newer neocons - His wrath would be limitless. The things they do in His name have NOTHING to do with His teachings. I mean they advocate war - something Christ specifically did not condone when He said "tirn the other cheek" :shrug: Moreover, He certainly did not go around MAKING people believe in His teachings by forcing the govt. to sponsor Him and Him alone. Finally, He certainly would be appalled at the people who have made BILLIONS in His name and give back a fraction thereof so they can have their private planes and mansions. So, I think Christ would have been a hippie and anti-establishment - just as He was when He walked the Earth 2000 or so years ago :cool:

I think if He came back now, He would gather the relig-a-tards like Jerry Flaw-well, Bobbing head doll Pat Rob-em'-son & their ilk together (That is after having a Diet Dr.Pepper & checking out the strippers at the local strippers club) and play a good ol' version of musical chairs...But when the music stopped these relig-a-tards wouldnt be able to sit down thanks to "Big J's" wrath of extra biblical plague strength hemorroids that each of these upstanding conserv-a-tard tele-evangelists would suffer for all eternity, Talk about anal purgatory!!!

Of course Jesus would be a cool dude to hang with when his return comes, But he better not attend a metal show and get in the pit wearing that damned robe...Last thing people would wanna see is the Savior's "meat & potatoes" hangin' out as he moshed around in the pit. Dude, Put on a pair of Fruit Of the Loom's for Heaven's sake :thumbsup:

Brian j.

[wondergirl9847]

Jesus didn't have anything, no home, no bed, nothing. He relied on the kindness of people He met/knew and I'm sure he was an avid camper as well. LOL Even the way the King of Kings came into the world was extremely humble. I love the part in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when the men choose the wrong grail, because they think he drank out of some fancy cup, but nope, Indy knew which one to choose. :thumbsup:

People like Falwell and Robertson remind me of the Pharisees who Jesus put in their place. They were the high and mighty ones.

Brian, my yearbook teacher was the beyotch from hell. She treated us like we were real journalists and we should have been up to speed on what every other school in the US was doing with their yearbooks. We all hated her. LOL

[WelshWitchPMD]

For anyone that likes the paranomal I would recommend the late night AM radio show Coast to Coast. It was the old Art Bell show who is still on during the weekends.
Lots of interesting subjects from UFOs, Past lifes, ghosts, witches, healing, etc. I love that show.


Here is the website link:
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

[Hawkeye]

If you believe in Christ, Jason. ;)

I can easily say that he was not a philosopher because I believe Christ to be a myth and not an actual person, but that's not why I mentioned it. His answer to that question was so calculated and cunning, it was only meant to drum up religious support. I don't think he believes what he said at all, just as I don't believe him to be a very religious man. :)

What! It's one thing to not believe he is a savoir, but think he never existed. The lets just say Charlemaine and Julious Ceasar and other historical figures never existed

[Hawkeye]

Jesus didn't have anything, no home, no bed, nothing. He relied on the kindness of people He met/knew and I'm sure he was an avid camper as well. LOL Even the way the King of Kings came into the world was extremely humble. I love the part in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when the men choose the wrong grail, because they think he drank out of some fancy cup, but nope, Indy knew which one to choose. :thumbsup:

People like Falwell and Robertson remind me of the Pharisees who Jesus put in their place. They were the high and mighty ones.

Brian, my yearbook teacher was the beyotch from hell. She treated us like we were real journalists and we should have been up to speed on what every other school in the US was doing with their yearbooks. We all hated her. LOL

He was a Nomad just like Stevie.

[WelshWitchPMD]

I think its fair to say thats the deadline for Lindsey's next solo album :laugh:

~Alex

:laugh: Alex so true!

[WelshWitchPMD]

The Mayans, or Aztecs, predicted Dec.23rd, 2012.

Well, no need to do any Christmas shopping that year. :laugh:

[amber]

Well, no need to do any Christmas shopping that year. :laugh:
:laugh: :lol: Whew!!!

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I think I read through this thread a little? Mentions of the Pope? If so he didn’t say anything about sheep did he? :o

[dissention]

As far as i can tell, most historians acknowledge that he was a real person, if not a person who did what everyone said he did. :confused: you are saying that you think he never actually existed, right?

Yup. :wavey:

I think he's a mythological figure. I think that stories about Jesus got passed down through the years and that's the extent of it.

[dissention]

What! It's one thing to not believe he is a savoir, but think he never existed. The lets just say Charlemaine and Julious Ceasar and other historical figures never existed

That's absurd. Jesus Christ is a figure that some choose to believe in based on religious beliefs. Nothing more, nothing less, in my opinion.

[amber]

Yup. :wavey:

I think he's a mythological figure. I think that stories about Jesus got passed down through the years and that's the extent of it.
Hmm, I've seen a lot of history shows about what real person he probably was and all that. :shrug: I mean, i don't really care if you think he was real, i used to not think so, but then saw enough evidence that he probably was a real person for me to believe he was. But there were a lot of christian martyrs being killed by Rome around the same time, i think he was randomly chosen, ie, it coulda been any of those martyrs :shrug:
Anyway, ok.
:wavey:

[dissention]

Hmm, I've seen a lot of history shows about what real person he probably was and all that. :shrug: I mean, i don't really care if you think he was real, i used to not think so, but then saw enough evidence that he probably was a real person for me to believe he was. But there were a lot of christian martyrs being killed by Rome around the same time, i think he was randomly chosen, ie, it coulda been any of those martyrs :shrug:
Anyway, ok.
:wavey:

I've seen the same evidence and I simply don't buy any of it. I think it's all hogwash, personally. :)

But I'm the wrong person to discuss any of this with because I think ALL of it is bull****. :laugh:

[amber]

I've seen the same evidence and I simply don't buy any of it. I think it's all hogwash, personally. :)

But I'm the wrong person to discuss any of this with because I think ALL of it is bull****. :laugh:
Really? Do you not believe it cause you don't want to, or would it take stronger and more evidence? At what point would you believe it? I mean, i would like it if Jesus wasn't ever a real person, either, but at what point do you need to start believing hisorical evidence? The main thing i believe, is that he was just one of many random martyrs at the time who's death got picked as "the one", etc, etc...

[wondergirl9847]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen. I have faith that Jesus walked this earth and I have faith that he died for my sins. I have faith in the Bible and I have faith that God hears my prayers.

My dad is not a religious man, he's probably been to 2 church services his entire life, he's never read the Bible, but you know who he calls when he's hurting or something? My grandmother...who is a Christian woman and prays. Why does he do that if he's not really into "the God thing"? Because of the power of prayer.Obviously, my dad has faith. :)

My house was burglarized back in July 1992, my mom and I were in our backyard. They stole VCRs, TVs, cameras....and my dad's guns and ammo. Knowing that they did this in the middle of the day, around the 5PM hour, when everyone was coming home from work, broad daylight, they could have easily come into our backyard, and my mom and I could have been shot dead. My mom walked into the house after she finished mowing the lawn (I was cleaning our pool) and could have walked in on them. Thankfully, they had already fled the house. I believe God was watching over us that day. Yes, a bad thing happened, our home was violated (for drug money), but we are alive and well to this day. For that, I am thankful.

[dissention]

Really? Do you not believe it cause you don't want to, or would it take stronger and more evidence? At what point would you believe it? I mean, i would like it if Jesus wasn't ever a real person, either, but at what point do you need to start believing hisorical evidence? The main thing i believe, is that he was just one of many random martyrs at the time who's death got picked as "the one", etc, etc...

I think it would take a lot for me to believe any of it, considering that no one is impartial when it comes to religion and no research or conclusions could possibly be un-tainted. What they've come up with simply doesn't cut the mustard as "historical evidence." Much of it has been debunked over the years as the result of hoaxes, there's no way to possibly authenticate ANY of it, and I simply find myself laughing hysterically every time I hear of a new piece of Jesus' robe that they found in a cave. It's all so incredibly absurd. I think it's possible that there was a regular man who was built up as being Jesus Christ and that all of the crap in the Bible is just pure fiction about that man. But there's simply no way of knowing, which is why I'm very put off by religious people who claim to know FOR A FACT that he existed.

[amber]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen. I have faith that Jesus walked this earth and I have faith that he died for my sins. I have faith in the Bible and I have faith that God hears my prayers.

My dad is not a religious man, he's probably been to 2 church services his entire life, he's never read the Bible, but you know who he calls when he's hurting or something? My grandmother...who is a Christian woman and prays. Why does he do that if he's not really into "the God thing"? Because of the power of prayer.Obviously, my dad has faith. :)

My house was burglarized back in July 1992, my mom and I were in our backyard. They stole VCRs, TVs, cameras....and my dad's guns and ammo. Knowing that they did this in the middle of the day, around the 5PM hour, when everyone was coming home from work, broad daylight, they could have easily come into our backyard, and my mom and I could have been shot dead. My mom walked into the house after she finished mowing the lawn (I was cleaning our pool) and could have walked in on them. Thankfully, they had already fled the house. I believe God was watching over us that day. Yes, a bad thing happened, our home was violated (for drug money), but we are alive and well to this day. For that, I am thankful.
Thats great you have faith. If i'm gonna believe in the teachings of someone, and that he did certain things in his life, i would rather that be a person WHO ACTUALLY EXISTED, AND DID THOSE THINGS. Otherwise i think it's just fine to have faith in myself. I mean, i could make up the story of a great being with 10 arms and the face of a cat, who said cool things and did cool things for people. It doesn't mean that thing exists. But it also doesn't mean i have to believe it existed for ME to be able to do great things and spread love to people. If you have to have a reason to do those things, fine. I would rather just do them based on the fact that they're the thing to do, rather than doing them because some other person, 2000 years ago, who may not have existed, said i should do them. i don't have to absorb lies and believe in something that may not exist to live my life in a good way. I will just live my life in a good way. :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

How do you know anyone existed before your lifetime? How do I know that certain people in history existed...because I'm taught it in school, that's why. I believe that God/Jesus didn't leave a paper trail (I'm not talking about the Bible. LOL) about His life because he wants us to have FAITH that He existed. Why would he leave behind stuff that would absolutely tell us He was here, then, where would the FAITH come in? :confused: That's what I think, anywho.

[dissention]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen. I have faith that Jesus walked this earth and I have faith that he died for my sins. I have faith in the Bible and I have faith that God hears my prayers.

My dad is not a religious man, he's probably been to 2 church services his entire life, he's never read the Bible, but you know who he calls when he's hurting or something? My grandmother...who is a Christian woman and prays. Why does he do that if he's not really into "the God thing"? Because of the power of prayer.Obviously, my dad has faith. :)

My house was burglarized back in July 1992, my mom and I were in our backyard. They stole VCRs, TVs, cameras....and my dad's guns and ammo. Knowing that they did this in the middle of the day, around the 5PM hour, when everyone was coming home from work, broad daylight, they could have easily come into our backyard, and my mom and I could have been shot dead. My mom walked into the house after she finished mowing the lawn (I was cleaning our pool) and could have walked in on them. Thankfully, they had already fled the house. I believe God was watching over us that day. Yes, a bad thing happened, our home was violated (for drug money), but we are alive and well to this day. For that, I am thankful.

In one of my favorite movies, "Wendigo," there's a scene between a father and his son where the son tells his father about the spirit of the Wendigo and how it inflicts its vengeance on people. The father then tells his son that sometimes people create stories like that of the Wendigo to make themselves feel better and to give them a greater understanding of the world; it explains away the bad things. It gives them something to believe in and makes them feel enlightened because they now "know" part of what goes on in the world instead of being ignorant because of a lack of answers.

I think that perfectly sums up my view on religion. :)

[amber]

How do you know anyone existed before your lifetime? How do I know that certain people in history existed...because I'm taught it in school, that's why. I believe that God/Jesus didn't leave a paper trail (I'm not talking about the Bible. LOL) about His life because he wants us to have FAITH that He existed. Why would he leave behind stuff that would absolutely tell us He was here, then, where would the FAITH come in? :confused: That's why I think, anywho.
Why would a stipulation of believing in god require "faith"? usually people say you have to have "faith" when they're just making stuff up, to serve their own ends, in my opinion. however, i know you have strong faith and i think you're nice and cool and funny, so, don't really want to argue with you about it. I mean, neither of us will change our mind.. :D
http://tinypic.com/xvthv

[wondergirl9847]

It's all good. I'm not arguing, per se, just stating why I believe. I know not everyone on this board believes in God. I love all ya'll, no matter what. :D

I just thought of Doubting Thomas, the disciple in the Bible, who wouldn't believe that Jesus was Jesus until he showed proof. Jesus showed him his hands, feet and side where he was pierced with the nails and said "Have you believed because you have seen me, Thomas? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe." I guess that's my philosophy when it comes to God.

[Vianna]

The Romans who were fanatical record keepers recorded the death of a Yeshua in 33 AD as a rebel. Whether that's Jesus or not I guess we'll never know.

I think he existed but he was a man like other men, not God, or God in human dress. You can compare him to people like Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Buddha,etc, etc. Good men who tried to make this world better.

As he railed against hypocrisy in one of the Gospels, I forget which, I am sure he would find the likes of many of these evangelists revolting. He called such people "whited sepulchres". Jesus was all about intent-that is, why are you standing up there preaching? Are you sincere or are you just showing off to see what kind of a crowd you can draw?

[amber]

The Romans who were fanatical record keepers recorded the death of a Yeshua in 33 AD as a rebel. Whether that's Jesus or not I guess we'll never know.

I think he existed but he was a man like other men, not God, or God in human dress. You can compare him to people like Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Buddha,etc, etc. Good men who tried to make this world better.

As he railed against hypocrisy in one of the Gospels, I forget which, I am sure he would find the likes of many of these evangelists revolting. He called such people "whited sepulchres". Jesus was all about intent-that is, why are you standing up there preaching? Are you sincere or are you just showing off to see what kind of a crowd you can draw?
Thanks for the Info! :wavey: Course, was there any record of the possible Jesus besides his death record? Like, why he was a rebel, what he said, did, bleah? (since the romans were fanatical record keepers)

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I don’t normally post in threads about politics and religion but I have to give credit where credits due. I looked through a little of this thread and saw it’s mostly the same old bull**** that’s been going around for years but need to add my opinion. Pick it apart all you like.

I was born and raised catholic and thought religion was false until I opened my eyes to the truth. After opening my eyes it still took 2 years to see the light. I didn’t learn the truth in a bible or a church. It wasn’t easy to see at first but the more I searched the more I wanted. I don’t attend church and don’t push religion on others. I do however have a strong relationship with Jesus. The Holy Spirit talks to me daily and I listen. I’m a sinner so the rest is my fault.

I’d like to add words for those having doubt but searching. The truth doesn’t come easy. Liars will throw all kinds of things at you to keep you from it. For some the journey may be the hardest thing you’ve ever done in your life but the rewards are indescribable. You’ll know when you get there. When the blindfolds come off and the haze settles you’ll see the miracles and power associated with the truth. I’ve seen 4 in my lifetime. There’s no doubt what I witnessed we’re miracles. They we’re the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.

My opinion on what I think of unbelievers is this. I don’t look down on you. There are many that just refuse to see. Others never take the time to look into it deep enough. It’s sad that you’re blindfolded and deceived by lies but I’ve been there.
I have no hard feelings towards anyone not understanding this so be it. However if you say you cant or refuse to see the truth I have a dare for you that will change your life forever.

Invest in a good bible study computer program. Turn off the TV, radio and everything else distracting. Put everything you’re your dealing with in life on hold wherever possible for as long as possible on a daily basis. Do away with time and most of what you’ve been taught about religion. Now dive headfirst into that program but remember it has restrictions too. You’re going to see the truth but try looking beyond what man has created. Try to remember certain things won’t be revealed until the end but God, you, earth, and the universe are all intertwined. Everything is happening for a reason good or bad. You’re all part of something far greater. You’ll see the truth and if you allow it the miracles will follow. The relationship is far more powerful then the knowledge but the knowledge is fascinating.

So your thinking look at this guy. He acts insane and uses cannabis. That’s the truth, but you don’t know me. I should be a better example of the truth but I’m not. I’m no holy roller but I love to talk about what I know one on one when I see someone has an interest. I know where I’ve been and know where I’m going. The rest is just a thang. I know I’ve probably opened up a whole can of worms with what I typed but I did it and it’s over. “See you in paradise.” Oh the bible code LOL. Anything’s possible but I haven’t needed it.

[dissention]

My opinion on what I think of unbelievers is this. I don’t look down on you. There are many that just refuse to see. Others never take the time to look into it deep enough. It’s sad that you’re blindfolded and deceived by lies but I’ve been there.
I have no hard feelings towards anyone not understanding this so be it. However if you say you cant or refuse to see the truth I have a dare for you that will change your life forever.

Oh my. :shocked:

You honestly believe that those of us who don't believe in God are refusing to see him? You believe that we're deceived by lies and are blindfolded? That just makes me want to write another check to American Atheists.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Oh my. :shocked:

You honestly believe that those of us who don't believe in God are refusing to see him? You believe that we're deceived by lies and are blindfolded? That just makes me want to write another check to American Atheists.You saw what I typed but the real reason for your response wasn’t the question. The last sentence gave it away. :D

[dissention]

You saw what I typed but the real reason for your response wasn’t the question. The last sentence gave it away. :D

I'm already a member, so my dues have been paid already this year. :thumbsup:

I simply take issue with how you view those of us who are atheists, as if we just refuse to acknowledge Him because we're blind and misguided. It's absurd.

[wondergirl9847]

You've read the entire Bible, right, Diss?

[dissention]

You've read the entire Bible, right, Diss?

Oh no, not all of it, but a lot of it. No offense, but I could never bring myself to read the whole thing.

[wondergirl9847]

Which parts did you read? Which parts did you hate?

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Diss I had something to say but I’ll let it go. :laugh: I don’t hate you and please read again that I don’t look down on you. I will add… No I haven’t read the whole bible either. It’s not easy to understand in the form it’s presented to us today. The study program opened me up to what I needed to see and what I see is the truth. No doubt. I had been blindfolded and lied to all my life. It happened for reasons I understand now. It had to happen for me to be where I’m at today. Wondergirl have you read “The Screwtape Letters?” I don’t recommend it but it gives you a whole different outlook on how deceiving the lies can be.

[strandinthewind]

Diss I had something to say but I’ll let it go. :laugh: I don’t hate you and please read again that I don’t look down on you. I will add… No I haven’t read the whole bible either. It’s not easy to understand in the form it’s presented to us today. The study program opened me up to what I needed to see and what I see is the truth. No doubt. I had been blindfolded and lied to all my life. It happened for reasons I understand now. It had to happen for me to be where I’m at today. Wondergirl have you read “The Screwtape Letters?” I don’t recommend it but it gives you a whole different outlook on how deceiving the lies can be.

With all due respect - your posts (the previous one and this one) came across as condescending and smug - it was if you were saying everyone who does not believe what I believe is wrong and too stupid to know it or when they are having the wool pulled over their eyes or they are "bindfolded." It is language like that that Jim Jones used while passing out Kool Aid :eek: That kind of freaky mentality is why people think Christians are fanatcial and intolerant wackos. Maybe you did not mean it that way - but that is how it came across :shrug: I mean Christ lead by example not force feeding :shrug:

Also, I agree with you that most of the lies that prevent people from teven wanting to think about being religious, much less a Christian, are told and perpetuated by Church leaders who are doing this for control and money. I mean look at The Roman catholic Church - who has done this for YEARS. Look at Robertson and his ilk - they use fear and the threat of God's Wrath - as if they control it :rolleyes: - to control people and make millions. They pick on people that do not believe in what they believe (which differs amongst them and changes perhaps daily) and make them social outcasts - they take the average person and tell them that gay people or atheists are the source of their problems and any support whatsoever of or for them will bring the Wrath of God a la 9/11.

Sick - just sick :mad:

They all make me sick to my stomach.

BTW - ½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ® - not all of this venom was directed at you and I get what you are saying just refering to how it came across :cool:

For the record - I have read The Bible (just about all official editions) and most of the unofficial stuff out there.

Edited for better explanation :cool:

[GateandGarden]

Sorry, ½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®, but, as the others have already explained at length, it seems nonsensical to call someone "blindfolded" and say that they "refuse" to accept the one truth and then, at the same time, say that you are not looking down on them.

Hillary

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I take no offense to your post strand. I know the reasons you feel the way you do. I agree with you on some of it. Organized religion has become sickening. I’m not a Christian. I’m a believer. I’m also pretty blunt about certain subjects. I know it doesn’t go over well with people but beating around the bush is a waste of time. I’ll let it drop. :thumbsup:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Sorry, ½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®, but, as the others have already explained at length, it seems nonsensical to call someone "blindfolded" and say that they "refuse" to accept the one truth and then, at the same time, say that you are not looking down on them.

HillaryThat was a mistake and I own up to it. “Sorry folks.” I really didn’t mean it that way. My bad. Damnit I knew better then to step into this mess. :sorry:

[GateandGarden]

That was a mistake and I own up to it. “Sorry folks.” I really didn’t mean it that way. My bad. Damnit I knew better then to step into this mess. :sorry:It's not a big deal. I sometimes consider myself the reigning queen of saying things I didn't really mean to say quite the way I said them on message boards.
:laugh: :wavey:

Hillary

[strandinthewind]

I take no offense to your post strand. I know the reasons you feel the way you do. I agree with you on some of it. Organized religion has become sickening. I’m not a Christian. I’m a believer. I’m also pretty blunt about certain subjects. I know it doesn’t go over well with people but beating around the bush is a waste of time. I’ll let it drop. :thumbsup:

I think we agree with each other a whole lot more than either of our posts suggested :laugh: No harm no foul - I appreciate you opinion - its all good!!!! :nod: :cool:

[amber]

It's not a big deal. I sometimes consider myself the reigning queen of saying things I didn't really mean to say quite the way I said them on message boards.
:laugh: :wavey:

Hillary
*ahem. crown stealer

[amber]

That was a mistake and I own up to it. “Sorry folks.” I really didn’t mean it that way. My bad. Damnit I knew better then to step into this mess. :sorry:
Actually i think it's funny that "some" people called your post condescending, considering. Luckily, i don't care. :wavey: I so blatantly disagree with you that it didn't bother my any more than the rest of it. :D

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I stand behind my original post but not the way I worded some of it. It’s a touchy subject and I should have read it through before I threw it out there to be read. It was a mistake. What about the dare though? Not the way I worded the dare but the dare itself. You can knock it before trying it but what purpose does that serve? I’m out of this thread for good now so no answers expected. No hard feelings either. :xoxo:

You’re all OK in my book except amber. She scares me.

[GateandGarden]

*ahem. crown stealer
:laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[amber]

I stand behind my original post but not the way I worded some of it. It’s a touchy subject and I should have read it through before I threw it out there to be read. It was a mistake. What about the dare though? Not the way I worded the dare but the dare itself. You can knock it before trying it but what purpose does that serve? I’m out of this thread for good now so no answers expected. No hard feelings either. :xoxo:

You’re all OK in my book except amber. She scares me.
really? because i disagreed? cause i said i disagreed? cause i said i didn't care how you worded it? Or for the reasons in the club charter? (that'd be the "amber scares me" club. I believe there's an opening if you want to join). Also? I think it's hilarious that I scare you. :shocked: I know i'm on the right path then.... :D

[amber]

:laugh: :lol: :laugh:
:xoxo: It's okay, it looks cute on you.

[GateandGarden]

really? because i disagreed? cause i said i disagreed? cause i said i didn't care how you worded it? Or for the reasons in the club charter? (that'd be the "amber scares me" club. I believe there's an opening if you want to join). Also? I think it's hilarious that I scare you. :shocked: I know i'm on the right path then.... :DI assumed he was just teasing you. :shrug:

Hillary

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

really? because i disagreed? cause i said i disagreed? cause i said i didn't care how you worded it? Or for the reasons in the club charter? (that'd be the "amber scares me" club. I believe there's an opening if you want to join). Also? I think it's hilarious that I scare you. :shocked: I know i'm on the right path then.... :DAll of the above. :laugh:

[amber]

I assumed he was just teasing you. :shrug:

Hillary

It's because you're nice. Aside from assuming, what, in his post, sounded (oo, rhiannon just came on the radio!!) like he was kidding? though, actually, i probably don't care that much. I might though. it's hard to tell. *giggle*

[amber]

All of the above. :laugh:
Ah. Well, you know, i'm just ringin like a bell through the night and such. no biggie. Just ruling my life like a flyin skylark... :lol: oop, gotta go, i'm being taken by the sky....see ya! :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

It's because you're nice. Aside from assuming, what, in his post, sounded (oo, rhiannon just came on the radio!!) like he was kidding? though, actually, i probably don't care that much. I might though. it's hard to tell. *giggle*I suppose I just always assume that someone's joking whenever he or she says something like "I like all of you...uh, except you--I don't like you." You usually say that when you have a crush on that person, right? :laugh: ;)

Hillary

[amber]

I suppose I just always assume that someone's joking whenever he or she says something like "I like all of you...uh, except you--I don't like you." You usually say that when you have a crush on that person, right? :laugh: ;)

Hillary
:laugh:
Oh, yeah!! I forgot about the sixth grade rule, section 7, which reads: "if someone specifically points out that they do not like you, or makes otherwise disparaging comments (cooties, disgusting, etc.) it is you're responsibility to conclude that they do, in fact, like you. Rock throwing and ponytail pulling, see section 4".

[GateandGarden]

:laugh:
Oh, yeah!! I forgot about the sixth grade rule, section 7, which reads: "if someone specifically points out that they do not like you, or makes otherwise disparaging comments (cooties, disgusting, etc.) it is you're responsibility to conclude that they do, in fact, like you. Rock throwing and ponytail pulling, see section 4".:nod: :laugh:

[SuzeQuze]

:laugh:
Oh, yeah!! I forgot about the sixth grade rule, section 7, which reads: "if someone specifically points out that they do not like you, or makes otherwise disparaging comments (cooties, disgusting, etc.) it is you're responsibility to conclude that they do, in fact, like you. Rock throwing and ponytail pulling, see section 4".

1/2 and amber sittin' in a tree... :laugh: :lol: :laugh:

[amber]

1/2 and amber sittin' in a tree... :laugh: :lol: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh:
great. if we got married we'd have to change the name to 4/4 insane... :rolleyes: :laugh:

[GateandGarden]

:laugh: :laugh:
great. if we got married we'd have to change the name to 4/4 insane... :rolleyes: :laugh:How'd you come up with that? I'll willingly admit that I can't add fractions. :laugh:

Hillary

[Hawkeye]

Oh my. :shocked:

You honestly believe that those of us who don't believe in God are refusing to see him? You believe that we're deceived by lies and are blindfolded? That just makes me want to write another check to American Atheists.

You waste money on crap like that.

[amber]

How'd you come up with that? I'll willingly admit that I can't add fractions. :laugh:

Hillary

:laugh: :laugh: 4/4 equals 1. As in, fully insane, not just half. :D

[GateandGarden]

:laugh: :laugh: 4/4 equals 1. As in, fully insane, not just half. :DI see. :laugh:

[amber]

You waste money on crap like that.
Really! He could send that to me!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: J/K, i actually agree with Diss sending money to that.. :D

[SuzeQuze]

:laugh: :laugh: 4/4 equals 1. As in, fully insane, not just half. :D

Well this could be a whole lotta crazy, whole lotta crazy... I kid because I love. :)

[amber]

Well this could be a whole lotta crazy, whole lotta crazy... I kid because I love. :)
hehehehehehe... :laugh: I love lyrics made into other stuff...and it's good i know i'm not actually crazy, i just play a crazy chick sometimes on the ledge... :D

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

hehehehehehe... :laugh: I love lyrics made into other stuff...and it's good i know i'm not actually crazy, i just play a crazy chick sometimes on the ledge... :DOK I admit it. Amber I love you. Standing outside your bedroom window at night and watching you make love to another man has become unbearable. I hope you understand the way I feel? Where do you keep the lawn chairs? :lol:

[amber]

OK I admit it. Amber I love you. Standing outside your bedroom window at night and watching you make love to another man has become unbearable. I hope you understand the way I feel? Where do you keep the lawn chairs? :lol:
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:
you mean the ladder? And there's a reason there are bars on my windows... :thumbsup: Wow, i've been having more fun at night than i thought! :woohoo:

[dissention]

You waste money on crap like that.

Not really, I just send the money that I saved by buying cheap gas. ;)

[dissention]

i actually agree with Diss sending money to that.. :D

You should go to their website, it's very comprehensive and has fascinating stuff to read. :wavey:

[Hawkeye]

Not really, I just send the money that I saved by buying cheap gas. ;)

I'm never going to stop hearing about that am I :laugh: