Doesn't anyone like Empire State???

[ricohv]

I was just reading the thread about Mirage, and how most people find it bland, and no one seems to like Empire State (which is something I have read over and over for soooo long). I also read that everyone thinks Stevie and Chris steal that album. Chris is at her most mediocre to me, Stevie is inconsistent (That's Alright , well, it's ok, but it's not alright in context to the rest of the album, too country sounding IMO for that album). I love how Lindsey kind of did a slight 50's doo-wop sound to the album, and Empire State is one of my favorites by him. I love to crank it up! I think it's totally energetic, creatively produced and manages to make the best use of Lindsey's somewhat manic energy of just about any one of his songs! Won't anyone agree with me?!? I f*cking love it...LOUD!!!

[greatdarkwing]

I *LOVE* Empire State...I'm surprised more people cant get into it.

~Alex

[strandinthewind]

I *LOVE* Empire State...I'm surprised more people cant get into it.

~Alex

I like it - I remember first hearing it and thinking "LB wrote a song about Manhattan" :laugh: I like his stuff, even the fluff, which this sort of is. I mean not everything has to be this complicated dissertation :shrug:

[greatdarkwing]

I like it - I remember first hearing it and thinking "LB wrote a song about Manhattan" :laugh: I like his stuff, even the fluff, which this sort of is. I mean not everything has to be this complicated dissertation :shrug:

Its a wierd sound, but looking at Mirage, all of it has a wierd, vintage feel to it.

~Alex

[sodascouts]

I was just reading the thread about Mirage, and how most people find it bland, and no one seems to like Empire State (which is something I have read over and over for soooo long). I also read that everyone thinks Stevie and Chris steal that album. Chris is at her most mediocre to me, Stevie is inconsistent (That's Alright , well, it's ok, but it's not alright in context to the rest of the album, too country sounding IMO for that album). I love how Lindsey kind of did a slight 50's doo-wop sound to the album, and Empire State is one of my favorites by him. I love to crank it up! I think it's totally energetic, creatively produced and manages to make the best use of Lindsey's somewhat manic energy of just about any one of his songs! Won't anyone agree with me?!? I f*cking love it...LOUD!!!


To each his/her own. I find Empire State gimmicky and annoying. One of his worst - EVER! Nancy's scientific analysis: EMPIRE STATE BLOWS.

Now, Oh Diane, there's an underappreciated song. Pleasant melody, a fun unoffensive little ditty in the tradition of old-style pop - yet some people loathe it. :shrug:

Gypsy is one of Stevie's - and FM's - best. It's brilliant. And Lindsey contributed so heavily to the final sound of that song it's almost a collaboration. I adore it.

Hold Me is another terrific song off that album.

The rest? Eh. I find Love In Store, That's Alright, Can't Go Back, and Straight Back pleasant enough. Book of Love and its "ha ha ha ha" background vocals are majorly annoying, and Eyes of the world - ugh, the monotonous repetition of "Eyes" ruins the song (live, it takes on a new spirit, though). Only Over You and Wish You Were Here - good music to put on if you're having a hard time getting to sleep. Otherwise not so hot.

So, Mirage is not my favorite, but it's not as terrible as Lindsey and some others make it out to be. But yes, his material is weaker on there.

And yes, Empire State IS that terrible. And then some. lol

[strandinthewind]

Its a wierd sound, but looking at Mirage, all of it has a wierd, vintage feel to it.

~Alex


I LOVE Mirage. I think it is brilliant :shrug: - perhaps even more so than Tusk :eek: - which was stellar:cool: I know this is not a popular opinion, but I do not care :laugh:

[greatdarkwing]

And yes, Empire State IS that terrible. And then some. lol

I cant get mad at you...you're Republican :laugh: :thumbsup:

~Alex

[greatdarkwing]

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I do not care :laugh:

:thumbsup: Way to not care!

~Alex

[sodascouts]

I cant get mad at you...you're Republican :laugh: :thumbsup:

~Alex

But I thought YOU were the only Republican on the Ledge. ;)

[greatdarkwing]

But I thought YOU were the only Republican on the Ledge. ;)

In some of those Chit chat threads it feels like it :laugh:

~Alex

[Johnny Stew]

I like to teasingly mention the likes of "Empire State," "Oh Diane" and "Family Man," when the opinion is expressed that Lindsey can do no wrong in Fleetwood Mac... but the truth of the matter is that I really love all of those songs.

They're just so fun, how could I not?

[sodascouts]

I like to jokingly mention the likes of "Empire State," "Oh Diane" and "Family Man," when the opinion is expressed that Lindsey can do no wrong in Fleetwood Mac... but the truth of the matter is that I really love all of those songs.

They're just so fun, how could I not?

You love Empire State and FAMILY MAN and dislike SMAP? :eek: Well, like I said before, to each his/her own.

[HomerMcvie]

I too, love Empire State! :wavey: The music is enough to overcome any lyrical deficit. :shocked:

[secondhandchain]

I was just reading the thread about Mirage, and how most people find it bland, and no one seems to like Empire State (which is something I have read over and over for soooo long). I also read that everyone thinks Stevie and Chris steal that album. Chris is at her most mediocre to me, Stevie is inconsistent (That's Alright , well, it's ok, but it's not alright in context to the rest of the album, too country sounding IMO for that album). I love how Lindsey kind of did a slight 50's doo-wop sound to the album, and Empire State is one of my favorites by him. I love to crank it up! I think it's totally energetic, creatively produced and manages to make the best use of Lindsey's somewhat manic energy of just about any one of his songs! Won't anyone agree with me?!? I f*cking love it...LOUD!!!
I totally agree! It's got really cool sounds in it and great harmonies! But then again, alot of stuff people hate on Tusk...I Love! I also LOVE Mystified.....What do ya think of them apples?

[ricohv]

I think if Tusk was FM's answer to punk, then Mirage (or at least Empire State) is sort of Lindsey's answer to New Wave. FM is so much more than "Fleetwood Mac" and "Rumours". Those albums are great in the eyes of the world, but there are so many merits to Mirage and Tango. How many bands can last this long, adapt to the changing times musically (sound wise) but still maintain their core sound, and especially make the leap from 70's arena rock to 80's/pop/video age? The Eagles certainly did not. Did they ever even make a video (outside of their latest dribble "Hole in My Head" or "The World" or whatever that comeback crap was)? I don't think any of FMs contemporaries have been as versatile as FM. Also on the 2-thumbs-up-for-Mirage-kick, I would like to say that Love In Store is sooooo catchy and clasically Christine, that I think if radio and music at that time wouldn't have sort of been "over" FM (or maybe just if FM would've thrown down another great video for Love In Store) that it surely would've been a much bigger hit. It's hard to imagine that Gypsy and Love In Store (and Rhiannon too) were not top 10 songs....hard to beleive since Gypsy and Rhiannon are pretty much considered "classics".

[Johnny Stew]

You love Empire State and FAMILY MAN and dislike SMAP? :eek: Well, like I said before, to each his/her own.

:shrug:

The former songs are fun ear-candy, while the latter song... for me, at least... is plodding and "sludge-like" in its execution. :sorry:

[ricohv]

ok Secondhandchain! I love Mystified too. And Johnny Stew, I love Lindseys songs where he is more kooky than when he has an angry chip on his shoulder. Family Man is a ding dong song, but it is so catchy. Same with Empire State. Let him make his statements on his solo albums, no one is gonna hear it anyways. With Fleetwood Mac he should stick with the catchy poppier melodies. JMHO!!

[Hawkeye]

Mirage as a whole is very bland and probably my least favorite Fleetwood Mac album from 1969-the present. And Empire State is very mediocre like most of Mirage. Oh Diane on the other hand sucks. another song I think sucks which won't be popular is Hold Me. Although I LOVE it to death live. The exact opposite opinion of most.

[Moony]

I think if Tusk was FM's answer to punk, then Mirage (or at least Empire State) is sort of Lindsey's answer to New Wave. FM is so much more than "Fleetwood Mac" and "Rumours". Those albums are great in the eyes of the world, but there are so many merits to Mirage and Tango. How many bands can last this long, adapt to the changing times musically (sound wise) but still maintain their core sound, and especially make the leap from 70's arena rock to 80's/pop/video age? The Eagles certainly did not. It's hard to imagine that Gypsy and Love In Store (and Rhiannon too) were not top 10 songs....hard to beleive since Gypsy and Rhiannon are pretty much considered "classics".

Nice observations ricohv :thumbsup: I agree - especially about those three songs not being top 10 hits. But that's popular radio for you.

As for Empire State, I don't know, something really bugs me about it. I think it's easily Lindsey's worst FM song. Oh Diane is fantastic though. LOVE it.

[Moony]

:shrug:

The former songs are fun ear-candy, while the latter song... for me, at least... is plodding and "sludge-like" in its execution. :sorry:

Couldn't have said it better Stew. Except of course, I think ES is just a slight bit worse than SMAP.

both are pretty horrendous

[GateandGarden]

Now, Oh Diane, there's an underappreciated song. Pleasant melody, a fun unoffensive little ditty in the tradition of old-style pop - yet some people loathe it. :shrug:...

...and its "ha ha ha ha" background vocals are majorly annoying, and Eyes of the world - ugh, the monotonous repetition of "Eyes" ruins the song (live, it takes on a new spirit, though). I totally agree about "Oh Diane"!!! And those are the exact reasons I can't take "Eyes" and "Book of Love." I thought I was the only one.

I was just talking to a new friend of mine (big FM fan) about this CD. It's one of the few she doesn't have, and she's heard such awful things about it that she's loath to buy it. She's a really big Lindsey fan over all the others, and she heard that his material on it sucks. I told her I love "Oh Diane" and that she might also like some of the others. I don't know about "Empire State." That one is the hardest for me to take. All things considered, Lindsey's Mirage songs don't seem to be his best by any means.

But as for the first comment about "That's Alright," maybe it is kind of weird for the album, being so country and all, but I think it's so brilliant that I don't care! I know I've said this many times before, but it's one of my all-time favorite Fleetwood Mac songs.

Hillary

[sodascouts]

another song I think sucks which won't be popular is Hold Me. Although I LOVE it to death live. The exact opposite opinion of most.

I just listened to it live while burning a CD and perhaps it COULD have been good - if they'd been able to nail the harmonies. But sadly that wasn't the case most of the time!

[sodascouts]

It's one of the few she doesn't have, and she's heard such awful things about it that she's loath to buy it.


This is off-topic, but kudos to you Hillary for using "loath" correctly. It is one of my pet peeves how many people will say "she's loathe to buy it" when loathe=hate and loath=reluctant. Just HAD to say that. lol

[Les]

"Empire State" was a grower for me. I don't think I warmed to it very much on the first listens, but I quite like it now, which is also how I felt about the Mirage album as a whole. "Eyes" and "Gypsy" and "Hold Me" were immediate favorites, but the others initially struck me as a little cold, which is strange because I now think of Mirage as a sunny, warm, summertime album. But anyway, as for "Empire State", any rock song that finds a way to make good use of a harp is okay in my book.

There's his song on Law & Order (one of those solo albums that apparently no one hears ;)) - called "That's How We Do It In L.A" - where he jokingly pokes at L.A. a little bit, feeling restless and a little distressed about his town. Feeling lonely, but compelled to stay there because it's the "only place" he can conceive of being. But in "Empire State" he seems to be flirting with New York, appreciating its energy and differences from L.A., and wondering if he could feel comfortable there.

I've always imagined that he wrote these two songs at about the same time or maybe when he was in a very similar state of mind, because "Empire State" just seems like the continuation of the thought he started with his L.A. song. He indirectly quotes from his L.A. song in "Empire State" with the line about how life in N.Y. is "not like we do in L.A." I know I always associate the two when I play one or the other.

[sodascouts]

I've always imagined that he wrote these two songs at about the same time or maybe when he was in a very similar state of mind, because "Empire State" just seems like the continuation of the thought he started with his L.A. song. He indirectly quotes from his L.A. song in "Empire State" with the line about how life in N.Y. is "not like we do in L.A." I know I always associate the two when I play one or the other.

I've always wondered if "Empire State" was inspired by his trip to New York to be the musical guest on SNL. Or is the timeline wrong for that?

[Les]

I've always wondered if "Empire State" was inspired by his trip to New York to be the musical guest on SNL. Or is the timeline wrong for that?

Seems like it's possible to me.

I think the NY music scene was more welcoming of New Wave and Punk than the LA scene initially was. As I recall, there was open hostility from some of the established L.A. bands, like the Eagles, toward the new musical movements emerging. Lindsey may have begun to feel a little out of place in LA given the direction his musical tastes had taken and NY probably seemed exciting and maybe more welcoming than his adopted home town at that point.

[ryan8472]

I hate the lyrics.....the music is good though.

[GypsySorcerer]

Empire State is one of Lindsey's worst IMO.... But overall, I don't mind Elvis Lindsey on Mirage.

[shackin'up]

Empire state is a great little fun song, played and produced with a lot of spunk. Oh diane is a nice little thing, but to my ears to much a style-copy. In ES he really turns the fifties style into Buckingham-language. That's why i like it.

PS: I like Mirage ten times better than Tango. I DO like all Lindseys tunes on Mirage, but Family Man? No. Slick drizzle, so Lindsey CAN do something wrong in FM. But on Mirage, his singing/screaming is superb. The way he sings Book of Love...greatness.

[GateandGarden]

This is off-topic, but kudos to you Hillary for using "loath" correctly. It is one of my pet peeves how many people will say "she's loathe to buy it" when loathe=hate and loath=reluctant. Just HAD to say that. lolThanks! I totally understand that coming from an English person. I'm something of an English person, too. :)

Hillary

[wondergirl9847]

I love the plink plinks! Thanks to this thread, I went to get my Mirage CD. :)

Empire State is sort of like Time Bomb Town in regards to Lindsey's vocals. He plays around with his voice and does wierd things with it. LOL It's not some deep meaningful song or something, it's fun Lindsey. :nod:

[ontheEdgeof17]

It's his work on Mirage that makes it a bland album. I like it at times, but sometimes it just sucks to listen to. No one wonder he doesn't get the credit he deserves....look at his songs on this....blah!

[markolas]

:shrug:

The former songs are fun ear-candy, while the latter song... for me, at least... is plodding and "sludge-like" in its execution. :sorry:

You must hate folk music and old-time country. :laugh:

As for Empire State, I've never heard this song, so I don't have an opinion.

[Vianna]

Count me among those who love Empire State! I also love Oh Diane and Eyes of the World. Listen to John on that one.

I love Gypsy and Straight Back. Can't get into that other Stevie offering.

Listen to Lindsey's guitar work on Wish You Were Here. Awesome.

Mirage is not Tusk. But then I don't think anything ever will be.

[markolas]

I love Gypsy and Straight Back. Can't get into that other Stevie offering

Blasphemer! ;) :p

[jbrownsjr]

I like his work on Mirage. Empire State is a cool song.

[jbrownsjr]

I like his work on Mirage. Empire State is a cool song.


Had it not been for Christine, Mick and Richard Dashut LB's songs probably would have sounded more like Law and Order.

[HomerMcvie]

Had it not been for Christine, Mick and Richard Dashut LB's songs probably would have sounded more like Law and Order.
Law and Order is greatness! One of my favorite albums. It's freaky deaky(sp). :thumbsup:

[dissention]

To each his/her own. I find Empire State gimmicky and annoying. One of his worst - EVER! Nancy's scientific analysis: EMPIRE STATE BLOWS.

Now, Oh Diane, there's an underappreciated song. Pleasant melody, a fun unoffensive little ditty in the tradition of old-style pop - yet some people loathe it. :shrug:

:nod: :nod: :nod:

I totally agree. Empire State is akin to torture, whereas Oh Diane is one of my faves.

[dissention]

Hm...To me, "Empire State" is just a fun little filler song. I don't love it like some others from Mirage (Love In Store, Gypsy, That's Alright, Hold Me, Oh Diane, Eyes of the World-especially live) and don't dislike it (Wish You Were Here). "Empire State" a very unique, fun, pop confection. :)

-Justin

Best. Signature. Ever. :woohoo:

I lurve it. :thumbsup:

[dissention]

Mirage as a whole is very bland and probably my least favorite Fleetwood Mac album from 1969-the present. And Empire State is very mediocre like most of Mirage. Oh Diane on the other hand sucks. another song I think sucks which won't be popular is Hold Me. Although I LOVE it to death live. The exact opposite opinion of most.

Mirage is the musical equivalent of wet crackers. It sounds like the band was phoning it in.

All of Stevie's songs are perfect, though; That's Alright has one of her best vocals and I never tire of that song.

Christine's tunes are too sweet for me, I never listen to them. She sounds like a drag queen in some of them. Hold Me makes my ears bleed.

Lindsey's songs are missing something and I get the feeling that he figured since he couldn't do what he wanted to, he wasn't going to put his heart and soul into the songs. And it shows. Empire State is bloody awful, one of the worst Fleetwood Mac songs ever recorded (yes, right up there with When I See You Again and No Questions Asked). I, however, love Oh Diane and never get sick of it. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

You must hate folk music and old-time country. :laugh:

Ahh... you just might have pinpointed exactly what it is about "SMAP" that I don't care for, but never could put my own finger on!

As I think about it now, "SMAP" definitely seems to be in the vein of old Appalachian hymns... and that's not a style I've ever been particularly fond of.

[Nixxxed]

I love "Empire State", especially the opening, where Mick starts a relatively simple drumbeat and Lindsey's guitar catapults off it. The "groaning" background vocals on the chorus sometimes sound off, but then I remember the breakdown at the end is coming, where John really lets loose, and I just settle back for the ride.

My fave fave thing about the song is the little yell Lindsey does on the first verse:

"New York, open your eyes to me
Let me (YEAH!) be what I want to be..." :blob1:

Mirage was the first Mac album I bought (and the first "rock" album), so really all the other albums for me have to stand up to it. Up until seeing the "Gypsy" video on MTV, I was a Disco child. I never thought anyone would capture my attention as much as Donna Summer did. If Donna had made videos, perhaps it would have been a different story. :nod:

[jbrownsjr]

I love "Empire State", especially the opening, where Mick starts a relatively simple drumbeat and Lindsey's guitar catapults off it. The "groaning" background vocals on the chorus sometimes sound off, but then I remember the breakdown at the end is coming, where John really lets loose, and I just settle back for the ride.

My fave fave thing about the song is the little yell Lindsey does on the first verse:

"New York, open your eyes to me
Let me (YEAH!) be what I want to be..." :blob1:

Mirage was the first Mac album I bought (and the first "rock" album), so really all the other albums for me have to stand up to it. Up until seeing the "Gypsy" video on MTV, I was a Disco child. I never thought anyone would capture my attention as much as Donna Summer did. If Donna had made videos, perhaps it would have been a different story. :nod:

She works hard for the money so you better treat her right!

[David]

I was just reading the thread about Mirage, and how most people find it bland, and no one seems to like Empire State (which is something I have read over and over for soooo long). I do! I like it! But it's not my favorite. My favorite is "Book of Love." I also love "Only Over You" -- that's just about the best thing the amazing Christine ever did. "Only Over You" has a great chord progression that uses chord suspensions to evoke mystery, wonder & terror.
I also read that everyone thinks Stevie and Chris steal that album. Chris is at her most mediocre to meIt never occurred to me to designate "Hold Me" an embodiment of mediocrity, but thanks!

[wondergirl9847]

I also love "Only Over You" -- that's just about the best thing the amazing Christine ever did. "Only Over You" has a great chord progression that uses chord suspensions to evoke mystery, wonder & terror.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who loves Only Over You. :) It's just a beautiful melody and I love the guitar at the end.

[Nixxxed]

She works hard for the money so you better treat her right!

:laugh:

Oh man, I HATE that song. I was talking videos for all her old stuff, up to (and including) The Wanderer album. If there had been a video for "Heaven Knows" or "Dim All The Lights", and MTV had played them when it first began airing, I may never have become ... nixxxed.

Instead, a Stevie/Mac video block on MTV changed my life. When I first saw Stevie's face fade onscreen at the start of "Gypsy", I perked up. (Ummm ... that sounded kinda bad, I guess. ;) ). Then they played SDMHA, then "Hold Me", then "Tusk". By the time "Sara" ended the set, I had forgotten all about poor Donna completely. :nod:

[jbrownsjr]

I love Donna Summer!


ONLY OVER YOU is a great tune. LB finishes it off with great pondering guitar at the end. I love this song........... Listen to it again everybody, you hear all the great ingredients of a McVie/Buckingham tune.

There's a weird high synth in this song that plays one note, I love that too.

David what key is this in. (let me be lazy)

[GateandGarden]

It sounds like the band was phoning it in.Oh God it really does! I am eagerly awaiting a nice re-issue with better sound quality and bonus tracks/demos!
ONLY OVER YOU is a great tune. LB finishes it off with great pondering guitar at the end. I love this song........... Listen to it again everybody, you hear all the great ingredients of a McVie/Buckingham tune.I love "Only Over You." It's not the best, but I melt when Christine says "Angel please don't go!"

Hillary

[secondhandchain]

Only Over you is a nice song. I love how the "whoah" harmonies blend into this really nice guitar solo. I think what annoys people is when Christine hits the note: "I'm OUT of my mind"
I also agree that Empire state has a kick ass solo at the end...
Oh and I agree, take a listen to "Only over you" again...especially the last minute.

[Johnny Stew]

I was beginning to think I was the only one who liked (loved) "Only Over You," so I'm glad to see that I'm not.

Now, having said that, I very well may be the only person who actually loves "Wish You Were Here" too. :distress:

[secondhandchain]

Now, having said that, I very well may be the only person who actually loves "Wish You Were Here" too. :distress:[/QUOTE]

I love it too, the song builds nicely and finishes with a great solo at the end.
To the poster who said Lindsey phoned in his stuff: NAH, he would never do that once he got into it. He labors over every song..

[takenbythesky]

Only Over you is a nice song. I love how the "whoah" harmonies blend into this really nice guitar solo. I think what annoys people is when Christine hits the note: "I'm OUT of my mind"
...Oh and I agree, take a listen to "Only over you" again...especially the last minute.
You hit the nail on the head! "Only Over You" has one of Christine's best vocal performances, but I really cannot stand that first "I'm OUT of my mind..." It's a shame, too, because I adore the part, "Angel please don't go..." The song is well-produced, wonderful harmonies and all; that one note just annoys me after repeated listenings. :(
-Justin

[macfan 57]

I very well may be the only person who actually loves "Wish You Were Here" too.

No you're not. I LOVE "Wish You Were Here", even though Chris didn't write the lyrics, love the piano & of course her voice. I really can't find anything negative to say about any of Chris or Stevie's songs on Mirage. It's Lindsey's songs that are the problem. "Empire State" is horrible. I don't like "Eyes Of The World" on the album, but live on the Mirage tour it was fantastic. "Book Of Love" is somewhat annoying with those Ha Ha Ha's. I like "Can't Go Back" & "Oh Diane" though.

[stefan]

Interesting debate. I thought it was the most obvious thing that Only over you is the worst song made by anyone ever. It`s painful to listen to. Hard to believe the same person wrote Hold me...

[GateandGarden]

Interesting debate. I thought it was the most obvious thing that Only over you is the worst song made by anyone ever. It`s painful to listen to. Hard to believe the same person wrote Hold me...No, the worst one ever is "Family Man," followed very closely by "WISYA." :laugh: Let's start that debate again! :blob2:

Hillary