I haven't been able to get on all day!

[GateandGarden]

Sorry, I just had to make a thread about it! I've been trying to get on here all day! I've been missing y'all so much because they're so many crazy Bush supporters around here. I wanted to cry with y'all when the news came in, but I couldn't get on. :(

Hillary

[greatdarkwing]

Sorry, I just had to make a thread about it! I've been trying to get on here all day! I've been missing y'all so much because they're so many crazy Bush supporters around here. I wanted to cry with y'all when the news came in, but I couldn't get on. :(

Hillary

ITS A BEAUTIFUL DAY!!!!! :thumbsup: :D :xoxo:

[AliceLover]

Me too! Its a pain in the ass! lol

Jimmy

[ThePenguin]

I had some MAJOR problems with the server. Working on getting everything back to normal now.

- Marty

[GateandGarden]

I had some MAJOR problems with the server. Working on getting everything back to normal now.

- MartyThanks Marty. I wasn't blaming you or complaining about you or anything like that--I was upset about the election results, mainly.

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

ITS A BEAUTIFUL DAY!!!!! :thumbsup: :D :xoxo:Yeah, I had a great time sobbing my eyes out in English class because I WILL NEVER GET MARRIED!!! :mad: Splendid day.

Hillary

[DrummerDeanna]

Yeah, I had a great time sobbing my eyes out in English class because I WILL NEVER GET MARRIED!!! :mad: Splendid day.

Hillary

I know it seems horribly bleak right now - but I don't know - I think sometimes things get darker before they get lighter - I am confident that the day will come when you can get married...social movements such as this don't happen overnight - I mean there was a time when interracial marraige was considered an abomination....things will come around...

BUT I know those day have suffered a major set back - and the fact that Bush may get to appoint up to FOUR supreme Court Justices...oy...I'm frightened....

[ontheEdgeof17]

Yeah, I had a great time sobbing my eyes out in English class because I WILL NEVER GET MARRIED!!! :mad: Splendid day.

Hillary


Maybe gays and lesbians should start marrying each other. :]


They won't stop us!

[DrummerDeanna]

Oh - Right - I couldn't get on either but I figured it was a server issue...

But man - my work day was spectacularly boring without the Ledge...I was lost...

[GateandGarden]

I know it seems horribly bleak right now - but I don't know - I think sometimes things get darker before they get lighter - I am confident that the day will come when you can get married...social movements such as this don't happen overnight - I mean there was a time when interracial marraige was considered an abomination....things will come around...

BUT I know those day have suffered a major set back - and the fact that Bush may get to appoint up to FOUR supreme Court Justices...oy...I'm frightened....I do see what you're saying. I hate to be too upset; things are usually better than I think they're going to be, but with this ultra-conservative victory, I'm thinking we won't have gay marriage all over the U.S. in my lifetime.

Hillary

[amber]

I know it seems horribly bleak right now - but I don't know - I think sometimes things get darker before they get lighter - I am confident that the day will come when you can get married...social movements such as this don't happen overnight - I mean there was a time when interracial marraige was considered an abomination....things will come around...

BUT I know those day have suffered a major set back - and the fact that Bush may get to appoint up to FOUR supreme Court Justices...oy...I'm frightened....
That was on the top of my list of fears, the supreme court justice thing...God, I wonder how much more he can F*** things up in 4 more years? *shudder*

[DrummerDeanna]

I do see what you're saying. I hate to be too upset; things are usually better than I think they're going to be, but with this ultra-conservative victory, I'm thinking we won't have gay marriage all over the U.S. in my lifetime.

Hillary

So are you holding out for the day when gay marriage is completely legal and acknowledged before making that kind of commitment to someone?

I don't think I worded that exactly how I meant it - but what I'm getting at is - and here's an example...

My friend Marieka and her girlfriend Genie consider themselves married -they had a ceremony and all...I mean - I know that ultimately it would be wonderful for there to be a legal acknowledgment of that union along w/benefits married couples get - but I guess my question is - are you holding out for all or nothing?

I hope I make sense...I was just curious...because until gay marriage is legal I know I have several gay couple friends who are (for the time being) doing the commitment ceremony thing...

[GateandGarden]

So are you holding out for the day when gay marriage is completely legal and acknowledged before making that kind of commitment to someone?

I don't think I worded that exactly how I meant it - but what I'm getting at is - and here's an example...

My friend Marieka and her girlfriend Genie consider themselves married -they had a ceremony and all...I mean - I know that ultimately it would be wonderful for there to be a legal acknowledgment of that union along w/benefits married couples get - but I guess my question is - are you holding out for all or nothing?

I hope I make sense...I was just curious...because until gay marriage is legal I know I have several gay couple friends who are (for the time being) doing the commitment ceremony thing...At first I thought I was going to hold out for that, because it's really important to me, being ridiculously traditional and all. :rolleyes: But now I'm pretty convinced that I needn't wait for that. And if I meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, I won't. But I would still feel worlds better if it was legal and recognized just as other unions are.

Hillary

[EnchantedSLN]

ITS A BEAUTIFUL DAY!!!!! :thumbsup: :D :xoxo:

I'm glad someone thinks so :distress:. It's a sad day. Kerry didn't lose... we all did.

[Johnny Stew]

At first I thought I was going to hold out for that, because it's really important to me, being ridiculously traditional and all. :rolleyes: But now I'm pretty convinced that I needn't wait for that. And if I meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, I won't. But I would still feel worlds better if it was legal and recognized just as other unions are.

I'm not waiting (well, assuming I FIND someone before gay marriages are actually legal! :laugh: ). In fact, I plan on getting married on Georgie's front lawn. :D
I'll be sure to invite him, too.

[DrummerDeanna]

At first I thought I was going to hold out for that, because it's really important to me, being ridiculously traditional and all. :rolleyes: But now I'm pretty convinced that I needn't wait for that. And if I meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, I won't. But I would still feel worlds better if it was legal and recognized just as other unions are.

Hillary

I truly admire your conviction - I really do :nod:

I think that since your beliefs or values or whatever the right word is are so important to you I can see where you're feeling so bad - it's a hard pill to swallow the state of things right now....I tell ya the mood at work today was downright depressing - everyone was either super pissed off or extremely sad and disapointed....I'm NOT looking forward to the next four years...:(

I am further disgusted that so many states passed the gay marriage ban...
I DON"T want to get into another religion thread here -but even I, who consider myself very spiritual, cannot stand the evil "religious right" though it's a cliched statement, "The religious right...is WRONG..." bastards.

[larg]

All I can say is, I hope all of the Democrats on here can get over their losing this time faster than they did last time (So basically, any time withing the next four years) because it's really tiring listening to you all complain about how your candidate lost and shouldn't have and how Bush is so terrible. It gets old. Open your eyes and look at some of the things that he's done that AREN'T so bad... Not that I'm saying the man is a genius or anything, and I agree he hasn't been the best President; but he has a very hard job, one I wouldn't want, and I think that he's done the best that any mortal human being can do. Maybe John Kerry WOULD be a better president... we have no way of knowing now. I'm just asking that all of you, rather than miserably "suffering" through the next four years, try to look at Bush in a more positive light. He's done some pretty good things; he took an evil dictator out of power (even if it was for his own, selfish and bad reasons. Read some things by the philosopher Hallie some day and you'll begin to understand that sometimes we have to look at the product, not the means, to judge a person), he's helped make it more difficult for women to use abortion to EXCESSION (that is, he's prevented women from having more than one or two abortions-- I know at least two people who have had in the abortions DOUBLE DIGIT numbers, and this prevents them from that ability; they now have children, yes, but they also regret their past ways because of having children and the abortions becomming difficult. Not to mention they both have various internal problems that are excrutiatingly painful due to abortions), and he's created programs that make it possible for me, a 3rd class 18 year old white male who was a straight A student through high school go to a good college and NOT be paying out of my ears for the rest of my life. I respect the things he's done. If you democrats can ignore Clinton's oral sex affair AND his lying to the country, why can't you look past the couple of flaws our President has? Besides, don't you think we could get more allies in this war we're in if people in other countries saw that we SUPPORT our president?
Please take time to consider what I've said, because I've tried to be polite and intelligent about this all, and its stuff I've been wanting to say for quite some time. I've dealt with all the democrat stuff here with a pinch of salt, the anti-Bush remarks that are undying, the sometimes crude and offensive images that tag posts, and the sometimes ignorant things people say here. I don't see how you all think you are so great, when you daily call republicans stupid, greedy and any other list of mean names. Seems to me sometimes like you are a bunch of kindergarteners who need depserately to grow up.
Finally, I wish to thank all of you who DO act respectively in all of this pish posh. It's refreshing to see that there are people in the world who can accept my views and my right to my opinions, even if they disagree. I can accept yours. Maybe you should try my method sometime; you'll find yourself surrounded by more friends because of it, as well as in some very interesting conversations that in the past were either one sided or formed as crude attacks.
One final thing, even though I am republican, I admit, I AM pro-same-sex marriage. It IS about love, after all, although I do agree it would be a type of desecration to the Christian religion to have Christian same-sex marriages, although I see no reason why two lovers cannot wed technically and have it acknowledged by our country. So my heart does go out to all of you who feel you have lost hope. Although maybe being a Mainer I'm ignorant, so please fill me in; why do you believe it's less likely to ever see such a law now with Bush? Wasn't Kerry ALSO against same-sex marriages? Forgive me for being confused. :shrug:
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to me, and any rude comments made by people who say I'm dumb or ignorant, expect a letter from me personally trying to prove other wise. If there's one thing I hate, its people who think they are better than someone else simply because they have a different opinion.
God bless you all and the beautiful country we live in that TRULY gives US the choice to make these decisions.
Do you think Sadam or Bin Laden were elected by the people?
That's what makes this country fantastic.
Please don't forget that.


Adam R.

[greatdarkwing]

AMEN to the above!

[Johnny Stew]

AMEN to the above!

I still can't figure out your unwavering support, in particular, of President Bush.
It's a paradox that I can't wrap my head around.

But so be it. :)

[strandinthewind]

All I can say is, I hope all of the Democrats on here can get over their losing this time faster than they did last time (So basically, any time withing the next four years) because it's really tiring listening to you all complain about how your candidate lost and shouldn't have and how Bush is so terrible. It gets old. Open your eyes and look at some of the things that he's done that AREN'T so bad... Not that I'm saying the man is a genius or anything, and I agree he hasn't been the best President; but he has a very hard job, one I wouldn't want, and I think that he's done the best that any mortal human being can do. Maybe John Kerry WOULD be a better president... we have no way of knowing now. I'm just asking that all of you, rather than miserably "suffering" through the next four years, try to look at Bush in a more positive light. He's done some pretty good things; he took an evil dictator out of power (even if it was for his own, selfish and bad reasons. Read some things by the philosopher Hallie some day and you'll begin to understand that sometimes we have to look at the product, not the means, to judge a person), he's helped make it more difficult for women to use abortion to EXCESSION (that is, he's prevented women from having more than one or two abortions-- I know at least two people who have had in the abortions DOUBLE DIGIT numbers, and this prevents them from that ability; they now have children, yes, but they also regret their past ways because of having children and the abortions becomming difficult. Not to mention they both have various internal problems that are excrutiatingly painful due to abortions), and he's created programs that make it possible for me, a 3rd class 18 year old white male who was a straight A student through high school go to a good college and NOT be paying out of my ears for the rest of my life. I respect the things he's done. If you democrats can ignore Clinton's oral sex affair AND his lying to the country, why can't you look past the couple of flaws our President has? Besides, don't you think we could get more allies in this war we're in if people in other countries saw that we SUPPORT our president?
Please take time to consider what I've said, because I've tried to be polite and intelligent about this all, and its stuff I've been wanting to say for quite some time. I've dealt with all the democrat stuff here with a pinch of salt, the anti-Bush remarks that are undying, the sometimes crude and offensive images that tag posts, and the sometimes ignorant things people say here. I don't see how you all think you are so great, when you daily call republicans stupid, greedy and any other list of mean names. Seems to me sometimes like you are a bunch of kindergarteners who need depserately to grow up.
Finally, I wish to thank all of you who DO act respectively in all of this pish posh. It's refreshing to see that there are people in the world who can accept my views and my right to my opinions, even if they disagree. I can accept yours. Maybe you should try my method sometime; you'll find yourself surrounded by more friends because of it, as well as in some very interesting conversations that in the past were either one sided or formed as crude attacks.
One final thing, even though I am republican, I admit, I AM pro-same-sex marriage. It IS about love, after all, although I do agree it would be a type of desecration to the Christian religion to have Christian same-sex marriages, although I see no reason why two lovers cannot wed technically and have it acknowledged by our country. So my heart does go out to all of you who feel you have lost hope. Although maybe being a Mainer I'm ignorant, so please fill me in; why do you believe it's less likely to ever see such a law now with Bush? Wasn't Kerry ALSO against same-sex marriages? Forgive me for being confused. :shrug:
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to me, and any rude comments made by people who say I'm dumb or ignorant, expect a letter from me personally trying to prove other wise. If there's one thing I hate, its people who think they are better than someone else simply because they have a different opinion.
God bless you all and the beautiful country we live in that TRULY gives US the choice to make these decisions.
Do you think Sadam or Bin Laden were elected by the people?
That's what makes this country fantastic.
Please don't forget that.


Adam R.

Bless your heart, are your trying to incite to riot in two forums :laugh: :rolleyes:

[GateandGarden]

Well, I'm not being thorough as I'd like to be, but Adam, I have to say that I don't think it was worth possibly preventing people having an excess of abortions to ban partial birth abortions. I think that was a bad move no matter how you slice it because there are extreme cases that call for those procedures. You have a point about removing an evil dictator, I do believe. But that isn't enough for me. Bush has wronged me in so many ways. I have not ignored the fact that Clinton dragged our country through a ridiculous and embarrassing sex scandal and lied about it. I wasn't proud of that. Regardless, it did not harm me and so many others the way Bush's policies have. I don't see how there's much of a comparison there. As for all the relentless hatred of Bush, I can speak for myself and say that I can't feel any other way because what he has done to gays hangs over my head every day of my life. I'm so tired of being gay, but I am acutely aware that death is the only way out of it, and that's just not a viable option for me. So I'm screwed. I feel very hated, particularly because of all the bans that were passed yesterday. And Bush has only helped that by stressing the importance of "protecting marriage." I know you said you're for same-sex marriage, but I really don't understand why you're saying you're against Christian same-sex marriages, since there are lots of gay Christians out there, and I know a couple myself. Also, the some Episcopalians churches and others are blessing same-sex marriages. It isn't a contradiction.

It's really hard for me to understand why I should be expected to not hate Bush, and I don't see why I can't continue to whine about him, since I voted for Kerry. I did my part, and things didn't work in my favor. However, I appreciate the fact that you expressed your opinions so respectfully.

Oh, and I forgot to mention--Kerry did not say he was for same-sex marriages, but he was all for granting virtually every other right and privilege to the GLBT community. For example, Kerry opposed discrimination in the workplace and the ban on gays in the military. Bush did not agree with him on these issues. Kerry was gay-friendly in every other way besides marriage. But, he would not have banned gay marriage. That is a big thing right there.

Hillary

[Hawkeye]

Kerry opposed discrimination in the workplace and the ban on gays in the military.

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing :shocked:

[GateandGarden]

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing :shocked:You have a problem with gays in the military??? Do you just want to piss me off? Because I'm in a bad mood tonight! I've been screwed over in a big way!

Hillary

[Johnny Stew]

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing :shocked:

Why wouldn't it be?

[sparky]

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing :shocked:

There are now, and always have been, tons of gays in the military. I've dated and know many ex military guys, and they had a ridiculous amount of sex while enlisted. It will always be that way. One day, this country won't be so obsessed with it. Fear, fear, fear. This country is dominated by, and has been defeated by
fear.

[GateandGarden]

There are now, and always have been, tons of gays in the military. I've dated and know many ex military guys, and they had a ridiculous amount of sex while enlisted. It will always be that way. One day, this country won't be so obsessed with it. Fear, fear, fear. This country is dominated by, and has been defeated by
fear.Well, I guess I should have clarified and said, "Openly gay people" in the military instead.

Hillary

[sparky]

All I can say is, I hope all of the Democrats on here can get over their losing this time faster than they did last time (So basically, any time withing the next four years) because it's really tiring listening to you all complain about how your candidate lost and shouldn't have and how Bush is so terrible. It gets old. Open your eyes and look at some of the things that he's done that AREN'T so bad... Not that I'm saying the man is a genius or anything, and I agree he hasn't been the best President; but he has a very hard job, one I wouldn't want, and I think that he's done the best that any mortal human being can do. Maybe John Kerry WOULD be a better president... we have no way of knowing now. I'm just asking that all of you, rather than miserably "suffering" through the next four years, try to look at Bush in a more positive light. He's done some pretty good things; he took an evil dictator out of power (even if it was for his own, selfish and bad reasons. Read some things by the philosopher Hallie some day and you'll begin to understand that sometimes we have to look at the product, not the means, to judge a person), he's helped make it more difficult for women to use abortion to EXCESSION (that is, he's prevented women from having more than one or two abortions-- I know at least two people who have had in the abortions DOUBLE DIGIT numbers, and this prevents them from that ability; they now have children, yes, but they also regret their past ways because of having children and the abortions becomming difficult. Not to mention they both have various internal problems that are excrutiatingly painful due to abortions), and he's created programs that make it possible for me, a 3rd class 18 year old white male who was a straight A student through high school go to a good college and NOT be paying out of my ears for the rest of my life. I respect the things he's done. If you democrats can ignore Clinton's oral sex affair AND his lying to the country, why can't you look past the couple of flaws our President has? Besides, don't you think we could get more allies in this war we're in if people in other countries saw that we SUPPORT our president?
Please take time to consider what I've said, because I've tried to be polite and intelligent about this all, and its stuff I've been wanting to say for quite some time. I've dealt with all the democrat stuff here with a pinch of salt, the anti-Bush remarks that are undying, the sometimes crude and offensive images that tag posts, and the sometimes ignorant things people say here. I don't see how you all think you are so great, when you daily call republicans stupid, greedy and any other list of mean names. Seems to me sometimes like you are a bunch of kindergarteners who need depserately to grow up.
Finally, I wish to thank all of you who DO act respectively in all of this pish posh. It's refreshing to see that there are people in the world who can accept my views and my right to my opinions, even if they disagree. I can accept yours. Maybe you should try my method sometime; you'll find yourself surrounded by more friends because of it, as well as in some very interesting conversations that in the past were either one sided or formed as crude attacks.
One final thing, even though I am republican, I admit, I AM pro-same-sex marriage. It IS about love, after all, although I do agree it would be a type of desecration to the Christian religion to have Christian same-sex marriages, although I see no reason why two lovers cannot wed technically and have it acknowledged by our country. So my heart does go out to all of you who feel you have lost hope. Although maybe being a Mainer I'm ignorant, so please fill me in; why do you believe it's less likely to ever see such a law now with Bush? Wasn't Kerry ALSO against same-sex marriages? Forgive me for being confused. :shrug:
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to me, and any rude comments made by people who say I'm dumb or ignorant, expect a letter from me personally trying to prove other wise. If there's one thing I hate, its people who think they are better than someone else simply because they have a different opinion.
God bless you all and the beautiful country we live in that TRULY gives US the choice to make these decisions.
Do you think Sadam or Bin Laden were elected by the people?
That's what makes this country fantastic.
Please don't forget that.
Adam R.

I got my ya-yas out on this subject, for the most part, last night.

However, having seen what happens with Republicans in office in my lifetime, I know it is going to get worse. I think Bush and his administration are some of the most evil beings who have ever walked the face of the earth. No president in my lifetime has inflicted this amount of damage to our economy, our environment, our civil rights, and our international relations.

I couldn't care LESS about Clinton's affair, or his lying about it. He was stupid to lie. But men cheat. They always have, they always will, and they will always lie about it. It is between them and their wives. Who cares ?

Bush and his band of reptiles are pandering to the lowest common denominators. They want us to be afraid. They want us divided. I have never seen this country so black and white. I have never seen so much anger. Bush exploited it, and amplified it. He is an idiot, and a slacker, and the majority of the voters wanted him. It says more about the country than it does about him. Talk to me when the supreme court is loaded with religious fanatics who will turn this country back to the dark ages. Then tell me it isn't so bad.

Abortion, shmabortion. It's a vile practice, but I haven't got a womb. If I had one, I wouldn't want someone telling me what to do with it. Those idiot women who have had double digit abortions and then suffer the repercussions reap what they sow. If they couldn't get them legally, they'd be dying with coat hangers because they were too stupid to prevent their pregnancies. Believe me, this administration would be crying no tears over their deaths.

Our future looks bleak, but we survived 8 years of that doddering, clueless dirtbag Reagan. Perhaps we will recover from the dimwit we have now.

[AliP]

And Bush has only helped that by stressing the importance of "protecting marriage." I know you said you're for same-sex marriage, but I really don't understand why you're saying you're against Christian same-sex marriages, since there are lots of gay Christians out there, and I know a couple myself. Also, the some Episcopalians churches and others are blessing same-sex marriages. It isn't a contradiction.


Hillary


This is something I have always wondered about. You can call me ignorant on this subject, and I will admit I am. If gays want the ability to get married - in the Christian sense - I mean in the eyes of God, church style etc., then shouldn't that be something they should take up with the various churches themselves rather than the government? I mean, if you are a Christian or if you believe in God, then I guess it really shouldn't matter if you are 'legally' married because it would only matter if your religion accepts your marriage and of course God, yourself, and your partner, family etc.

But, if the reason that getting married is mainly to get the benefits that married couples get, ie insurance, benefits etc then, obviously, it is a governmental matter.

I'm just curious...what is the main reasons homosexuals want the right to get married...is it purely religous, governmental related or both?

I can definitely see why gays want the right to get married and receive all the rights that hetero married couples get through the government. But if it's more of a religous matter, then I'm confused as to why I don't hear more gay people going after the religions themselves rather than the government.

[Johnny Stew]

This is something I have always wondered about. You can call me ignorant on this subject, and I will admit I am. If gays want the ability to get married - in the Christian sense - I mean in the eyes of God, church style etc., then shouldn't that be something they should take up with the various churches themselves rather than the government? I mean, if you are a Christian or if you believe in God, then I guess it really shouldn't matter if you are 'legally' married because it would only matter if your religion accepts your marriage and of course God, yourself, and your partner, family etc.

But, if the reason that getting married is mainly to get the benefits that married couples get, ie insurance, benefits etc then, obviously, it is a governmental matter.

I'm just curious...what is the main reasons homosexuals want the right to get married...is it purely religous, governmental related or both?

I can definitely see why gays want the right to get married and receive all the rights that hetero married couples get through the government. But if it's more of a religous matter, then I'm confused as to why I don't hear more gay people going after the religions themselves rather than the government.

It's not about wanting religions to recognize our unions, it's all about wanting the government to recognize them, and to afford us the same rights through those unions, as heterosexual couples have.

The catch-word is "marriage," because it's the coming together of two people as a confirmation of their love, but it's not about marriage in the religious sense (though certainly many gays and lesbians ARE Christians and/or spiritual).

But that is where we failed. The word "marriage" muddled everything. It raised people's hackles, and the conservative and religious groups artfully used the verbiage to make it appear as if we were trying to force our so-called "lifestyle" on the good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving folk in this nation.

The majority of people in this country made it painfully clear that they want exclusive rights to the word "marriage," but, unfortunately, they blocked us from having our unions recognized in the process.

In a country where people have weddings for their dogs, you'd think we'd be a little more open-minded about two consenting adults wishing to share their lives together and desiring equal rights.

[larg]

It's me again. Skip over me if you hate me now because of my beliefs.

Firstly, I started my post in this thread and realized it wasn't being viewed as much as the bigger thread, so I copied and pasted it there. I want my views to be seen. Sorry if that bothers you all; none of YOU have any problem with making YOUR views seen, but then again, everyone on here agrees with you. I have two people as of right now.

I decided to reply here though because so far almost all the responses here have been what I was looking for. I appreciate it a lot, and it makes me respect your party more. I was once told by a Democrat that if he saw a starving Republican and a starving dog, she'd feed the dog then kick the republican. And yet the people of your party wonder why I feel hostile towards you at times. :distress:

So anyway, thanks to everyone here whose given a good, polite and logical response. I've taken all your thoughts into consideration.

No, I didn't know much about the gay marriage issues. Its not something that really matters in my life, being a hetero male whose had a girlfriend for 2 1/2 years, I have no reason to be concerned for gay marriages, although I agree that its something we need in this country in order for it to be a free country. I just haven't spent much time reading into it yet, with so many other topics that are of more importance to me right now.

How did Bush help me into college? Well, I got what's called the Presidential Scholarship. Clinton's idea, where he would give up to 1/4 of the tuition cost to a student in the top 10 of his or her class. Bush raised that fraction. I got $34,000 PER YEAR of my school career thanks to him. Otherwise, I wouldn't be going to college right now-- it would be impossible to afford it.

I'm not going to tackle the abortion topic again because its really difficult for me to stay polite with it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and anyone here who has ever had a 1 on 1 conversation with me would probably testify this.

By the way, I know its hard to get over losing this battle. Honestly, I didn't want EITHER candidate, so it would have been hard for me either way. I'm just asking that we all try to move forward now, rather than lingering in how bad the next four years will be-- and instead, try to make them a great four years.

Who's with me?

Adam R.

[GateandGarden]

Adam, don't you have gay and lesbian friends? It doesn't hurt you to see that they're being treated as second-class citizens? Back when I was a repressed homosexual and I was so sure I was straight (the not-too-distant past), I had utmost sympathy for the gay community because it was so plain to see how they were/are treated unfairly. Granted, some of this was because some part of me knew that I was one of them and was loath to admit it, but I know that I would have had sympathy regardless.

As for your optimistic attitude about the next four years, and the concept of keeping that attitude because it is much more beneficial...I just can't bring myself to do that. Not only am I going to be miserable as a gay person, I think many, many more are going to be affected in awful ways, not just the GLBT community. We weren't the only ones to begin with; we were just so easy to point out. Some professors of political science at my university are convinced that we'll be blowing people away in Iran next, that Roe vs. Wade and Miranda vs. Arizona we'll be overturned, and that our civil liberties we'll be diminished even more quickly than they were already being diminished. I trust their opinions because 1) they're over thirty years older than me and have seen much more than I have, 2) they work in the field of politics, so are automatically more informed than I am, and 3) they don't come off nearly as radical and angry as I do, so I think they're being more rational and logical. And this scares me. If these things happen, it'll be devastating to many, many people.

I agree with Johnny on the gay marriage issue. The rights, privileges, and benefits in general are more important than the religious aspect, though I know some gays who will never be completely satisified until they can be married in a church.

Hillary

[GypsySorcerer]

It's not about wanting religions to recognize our unions, it's all about wanting the government to recognize them, and to afford us the same rights through those unions, as heterosexual couples have.

The catch-word is "marriage," because it's the coming together of two people as a confirmation of their love, but it's not about marriage in the religious sense (though certainly many gays and lesbians ARE Christians and/or spiritual).

But that is where we failed. The word "marriage" muddled everything. It raised people's hackles, and the conservative and religious groups artfully used the verbiage to make it appear as if we were trying to force our so-called "lifestyle" on the good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving folk in this nation.

The majority of people in this country made it painfully clear that they want exclusive rights to the word "marriage," but, unfortunately, they blocked us from having our unions recognized in the process.

In a country where people have weddings for their dogs, you'd think we'd be a little more open-minded about two consenting adults wishing to share their lives together and desiring equal rights.


JS, I think you're right. The word "marriage" got many people's bloomers in a bunch.

I have stated this before, so sorry for repeating myself. :) I think people ought to realize that marriages recognized by the government are really civil marriages, although when a hetero couple is married in a church, they're married "religiously" and civilly in the eyes of the law. I don't understand the opposition to civil marriages by the religious right, I really don't. It's a government thing, not a God thing. :shrug:

[Mad4stevie]

The sad thing is that marriage is not the "esteemed union" that it used to be -there are way, way too many divorces in this country. People who have no concept of commitment, etc. and no idea how to resolve problems in their relationships.

I see it everyday because I am a divorce lawyer. Even though I provide a service to people, it does not mean that I agree with their choices. People just don't have a clue about what marriage is, and at the first sign of trouble, alot of people just cut and run.

Quite frankly, it makes me wonder why we want more marriages . . .

It seems inconsistent to me to say on one hand, marriage is "sacred" and should only be between a man and a woman, and on the other, that people should be able to get divorces for just about any reason at all with total disregard to the idea of a sacred commitment in the first place.

[ontheEdgeof17]

The sad thing is that marriage is not the "esteemed union" that it used to be -there are way, way too many divorces in this country. People who have no concept of commitment, etc. and no idea how to resolve problems in their relationships.

I see it everyday because I am a divorce lawyer. Even though I provide a service to people, it does not mean that I agree with their choices. People just don't have a clue about what marriage is, and at the first sign of trouble, alot of people just cut and run.

Quite frankly, it makes me wonder why we want more marriages . . .

It seems inconsistent to me to say on one hand, marriage is "sacred" and should only be between a man and a woman, and on the other, that people should be able to get divorces for just about any reason at all with total disregard to the idea of a sacred commitment in the first place.

I agree with this 100%.

If they want marriages to be so sacred, why don't they start with the "Wedding Chapels" in Vegas? I've been a big opposer to these because they seem to mock the holiness that a church is suppose to be and what a marriage is suppose to symbolize.

[GateandGarden]

If they want marriages to be so sacred, why don't they start with the "Wedding Chapels" in Vegas? I've been a big opposer to these because they seem to mock the holiness that a church is suppose to be and what a marriage is suppose to symbolize.Agreed. :nod:

Hillary

[stargazer99]

As for your optimistic attitude about the next four years, and the concept of keeping that attitude because it is much more beneficial...I just can't bring myself to do that. Not only am I going to be miserable as a gay person, I think many, many more are going to be affected in awful ways, not just the GLBT community. We weren't the only ones to begin with; we were just so easy to point out. Some professors of political science at my university are convinced that we'll be blowing people away in Iran next, that Roe vs. Wade and Miranda vs. Arizona we'll be overturned, and that our civil liberties we'll be diminished even more quickly than they were already being diminished.

This is EXACTLY why I'm so devestated by having Bush for another 4 years.

I am not gay, but I am strongly opposed to a ban on gay marraiges, and am deeply saddened by that ban passing in all 11 states where it was on the ballot. Furthermore, I believe it IS just the tip of the iceberg....

I was finally able to bring myself this morning to read about W's victory speech. On the one hand, he says he wants to bring America together, including all those Americans who voted against him. On the other hand, some of the things he cited that are on his agenda are the things that made so many people vote against him, including amending the Constitution to ban gay marraiges. And I agree with your professors, Hillary. We have already seen erosion of our civil liberties these past 4 years, and I believe it will only get worse. And we are now faced with the prospect of Bush appointing up to 4 supreme court justices. The very least this will means is that Roe v. Wade WILL be overturned. I also don't for a second believe that we are safer with W in office.... and I believe Bin Laden knows that. That's why he came out with that tape right before the election... he WANTS W as our leader. And I'm convinced we will be attacked again within the next 6 months.

In the meantime, we have a president who couldn't give 2 sh*ts about maintaining good relations with other countries, or about gays, women, minorities... anyone who isn't a white, male Christian. And I'm sorry, but no matter what your religious beliefs are.... religion HAS NO BUSINESS BEING USED TO GOVERN. The thing that scares me the most is that the biggest reason Bush was re-elected it is due to the FAR Christian right ... and I don't for a second believe they don't expect payback. First, it will be the gay marraige ban (because being gay is a "sin" according to these people... as if a person "chooses" to be gay). Next, Roe vs. Wade... then who knows what after that? The really scary thing is that many of these people are obsessed with experiencing the "Rapture"..... the day when Jesus comes back to earth and the world ends in a fiery blaze, with only those who are "born agains" being saved. I am very fearful that they are now going to get their wish about the fiery blaze part, because we have a "war" president who wants to take over the world, and is pissing off the world in the process. We are FAR from safe with this man in office....

Sorry, but until this man proves he truly is acting in the best interest of all Americans, I will NEVER accept him as my president. And I have NEVER been so saddened, disgusted, heart-broken and fearful as I am right now.


- Mary

[Nixxxed]

There are now, and always have been, tons of gays in the military. I've dated and know many ex military guys, and they had a ridiculous amount of sex while enlisted. It will always be that way. One day, this country won't be so obsessed with it. Fear, fear, fear. This country is dominated by, and has been defeated by
fear.

Exactly -- I know homosexuals (both men and women) who are serving both in Afghanistan and Iraq RIGHT NOW!

RIGHT NOW, as you read this, HOMOSEXUALS are in the Middle East fighting. Which is especially interesting, considering we're supposedly there fighting for US interests and our rights -- including the rights and freedoms of certain HETEROSEXUALS who want to and have banned them from getting "married". :nod:

[GateandGarden]

This is EXACTLY why I'm so devestated by having Bush for another 4 years...

- MaryMary! I didn't even realize you were on the Ledge. :wavey: I'm so glad you're here. And, of course, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. It doesn't look good, but at least we have each other. I guess it's shallow, but I feel better when I visit this board because it's one of the very few places where I can locate like minds. :)

Hillary

[strandinthewind]

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing :shocked:


They are already there :shrug: They just cannot be themselves - but they are good enough to stay in the closet and die for their country, which refuses to recognizes them :shrug:

AND - to add insult to injury, our closeted troops are fighting along side the British and Australian out troops - they allow gays in their military. Apparently, their military did not topple out of disdain from a few out fags willing to die for their country :rolleyes:

[estranged4life]

I'm glad someone thinks so :distress:. It's a sad day. Kerry didn't lose... we all did.

to that...Wednesday sucked majorly overdosed amounts of ass in the Johnson household (First Bush winning then no electric for 24 hours while the temp dropped to freezin')

Brian "I still cannot feel my toes" j.

[DrummerDeanna]

So rather than get down in the dumps about being gay AND having Bush in office - stand up and fight!!

There are many organizations working for change...

He may try to overturn Roe V. Wade, constitutianally ban gay marriage etc...These thing WILL NOT stand....I simply won't believe it....the only thing ever BANNED in the constitution was what - alcohol - that got taken out...now this...it won't stick...if it gets in there in the first place...

I do think that things may get darker before they get lighter....

BUT rather than be miserable...find an organization/s that does good work, matters to you and work for a positive change in this country...I'm hoping that this election makes people wake up and WORK HARDER...rather than just skulking back and letting the **** fly...

[stargazer99]

Mary! I didn't even realize you were on the Ledge. I'm so glad you're here.

Thanks Hilary! It's good to see you here, too... miss you on the other Board!

I guess it's shallow, but I feel better when I visit this board because it's one of the very few places where I can locate like minds.

I usually just lurk here, but started responding on election night because I was SO nervous about the election, and felt better seeing that others share my views. I was despondent yesterday, couldn't even go to work. I was sick to my stomach with a massive headache. AND I couldn't log on here all day due to the server problems! I couldn't bear to watch or read the news ... I just wanted to hear from others who felt the same as me. So I totally understand the "comfort" factor.. and even how it feels good to have an intelligent debate with those that don't happen to agree with your point of view.

- Mary

[Johnny Stew]

So rather than get down in the dumps about being gay AND having Bush in office - stand up and fight!!

That's what I fully intend to do. But I have to confess that when you find yourself fighting for everything and anything you have in life, it gets a bit exhausting after awhile. Your resolve takes a beating, and sometimes it's harder to pick yourself back up after a huge defeat. Especially when it feels as if half the country is against you.

But I will keep fighting. Not just for me, but for my friends. Especially the younger ones... for Hillary, for Curtis, for Josh, and many others... so that, when they're in their 30s, it'll be easier for them than it is for me and my friends who are in their 30s.
Just as I know my gay friends who are in their 40s and 50s fought (and continue to fight) so hard so that things would be easier for those of us younger than they are.

I don't think anyone is throwing in the towel and giving up. I just think we're all a little demoralized right now, and reacting in our own ways.
Some of us are trying to look at the bright side, some of us are severely depressed, some of us are angry and lashing out, and most of us are experiencing a combination of all of those reactions.

We've exprienced a great blow to our morale, and it's going to take some time to regroup and face the next series of battles, but we'll do it.

Everything in its own time.

[SuzeQuze]

to that...Wednesday sucked majorly overdosed amounts of ass in the Johnson household (First Bush winning then no electric for 24 hours while the temp dropped to freezin')

Brian "I still cannot feel my toes" j.

You poor thing, Brian, that's awful. My double whammy was my psychotic landlord finding out about my cat. She paid a surprise visit. She has flipped out. I love my cat more than anything, he is my baby, so look out! So I can identify with being clobbered by devastating forces. I am better today but yesterday I felt murderous and devastated all at once.

~Susan

[SuzeQuze]

That's what I fully intend to do. But I have to confess that when you find yourself fighting for everything and anything you have in life, it gets a bit exhausting after awhile. Your resolve takes a beating, and sometimes it's harder to pick yourself back up after a huge defeat. Especially when it feels as if half the country is against you.

But I will keep fighting. Not just for me, but for my friends. Especially the younger ones... for Hillary, for Curtis, for Josh, and many others... so that, when they're in their 30s, it'll be easier for them than it is for me and my friends who are in their 30s.
Just as I know my gay friends who are in their 40s and 50s fought (and continue to fight) so hard so that things would be easier for those of us younger than they are.

I don't think anyone is throwing in the towel and giving up. I just think we're all a little demoralized right now, and reacting in our own ways.
Some of us are trying to look at the bright side, some of us are severely depressed, some of us are angry and lashing out, and most of us are experiencing a combination of all of those reactions.

We've exprienced a great blow to our morale, and it's going to take some time to regroup and face the next series of battles, but we'll do it.

Everything in its own time.

I feel like I'm in a nightmare and need to wake up. What the hell happened to AMERICA! We are fighting for <i><b>freedom</b></i> in Iraq while banning gay marriage here. WTF IS GOING ON???? I'm glad you all are here to chat with, it helps so much. My roommate and boyfriend both voted for Bush. My roommate believes that Osama said that any state that voted for Kerry would not be attacked, that he was for Kerry, she said "that says a lot". I don't know how she is still alive. And my BF the ex marine is so pro Bush. I do not understand these people. Ugh!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'll be fighting along with everyone. I won't just let my rights be pulled from me without one.

~Susan

[DrummerDeanna]

That's what I fully intend to do. But I have to confess that when you find yourself fighting for everything and anything you have in life, it gets a bit exhausting after awhile. Your resolve takes a beating, and sometimes it's harder to pick yourself back up after a huge defeat. Especially when it feels as if half the country is against you.

But I will keep fighting. Not just for me, but for my friends. Especially the younger ones... for Hillary, for Curtis, for Josh, and many others... so that, when they're in their 30s, it'll be easier for them than it is for me and my friends who are in their 30s.
Just as I know my gay friends who are in their 40s and 50s fought (and continue to fight) so hard so that things would be easier for those of us younger than they are.

I don't think anyone is throwing in the towel and giving up. I just think we're all a little demoralized right now, and reacting in our own ways.
Some of us are trying to look at the bright side, some of us are severely depressed, some of us are angry and lashing out, and most of us are experiencing a combination of all of those reactions.

We've exprienced a great blow to our morale, and it's going to take some time to regroup and face the next series of battles, but we'll do it.

Everything in its own time.

True true - there has been a major setback and there should be a mourning period - I guess I was just tired of hearing people complain ;) I"m over it now...

I am grateful - as are others for the work our older gay/lebsian friends have done in the past...one man in my old town was 70-something - had been married most of his adult life - then realized why he'd been so miserable all his life - he's gay -and man - this guy is a fighter...does so much for the younger community...it's much appreciated...and I aslo intend to get involved to pave the way for change :D

[amber]

to address the original purpose of this thread....
I haven't been able to get it on all day, either.... :laugh: