Fleetwood Mac & Mick Fleetwood sales figures [Archive]

macfan 57

10-28-2004, 04:00 PM

This is from ask Billboard on Billboard's website.

MICK VS. FLEETWOOD

Hi Keith,

I check your column weekly and really enjoy the questions asked and answered, so thank you for that. My questions are regarding Fleetwood Mac and Mick Fleetwood.

Both have released albums this year. Fleetwood Mac with "Live In Boston," and the Mick Fleetwood Band's "Something Big." I was just wondering how well these two releases are doing sales-wise and whether or not you can provide us with any sales numbers for Fleetwood Mac's albums during the Nielsen SoundScan era.

Thanks for your time.

Peter Taylor

Hello Peter,

Since its release in June, Fleetwood Mac's "Live In Boston" (Reprise) has moved 50,000 units in the United States, according to Nielsen SoundScan. The Mick Fleetwood Band's Sanctuary album "Something Big" has shifted less than 2,000 copies since it bowed in late September.

Here is a list of Fleetwood Mac's other Nielsen SoundScan-era major U.S. releases, with their sales-to-date:

"25 Years: The Chain" (1995, 79,000)
"Time" (1995, 50,000)
"The Dance" (1997, 4.3 million)
"The Very Best of Fleetwood Mac" (2002, 958,000)
"Say You Will" (2003, 838,000)

MacMan

10-28-2004, 05:29 PM

Cool!!!!!

That question was asked by MEEEEEEEE.......

amber

10-28-2004, 05:30 PM

awww, say you will shoulda sold better. Although, i didn't buy my copy, hehe.

Jessica Leigh

10-28-2004, 08:50 PM

awww, say you will shoulda sold better. Although, i didn't buy my copy, hehe.

You WHAT? please tell me someone else bought it for you as a gift.

amber

10-28-2004, 08:55 PM

You WHAT? please tell me someone else bought it for you as a gift.
uh, sorry, downloaded as a gift? I was gonna buy it, then this guy brought it over...and i'm poor...I may still buy it, though! :sorry:

ontheEdgeof17

10-28-2004, 08:58 PM

uh, sorry, downloaded as a gift? I was gonna buy it, then this guy brought it over...and i'm poor...I may still buy it, though! :sorry:

:distress:

MacMan

10-28-2004, 09:06 PM

For that... You must buy the limited edition! :eek:

amber

10-28-2004, 09:06 PM

:distress:
oh, hush, Mr. No Votey. What was i supposed to do? be all "no, i'm sorry, i can't accept this thoughtful gift, it was dl'd"? ok, how bout this - you send me $15, and i'll buy Say You Will with it... :D Deal?

blinker12

10-28-2004, 09:31 PM

"Say You Will" (2003, 838,000)

I wonder if the band and/or Warners broke even on those sales (in terms of recording expenses, and not counting touring).

David

10-29-2004, 11:30 AM

I wonder if the band and/or Warners broke even on those sales (in terms of recording expenses, and not counting touring).I hope not!

It might be nice to see the big labels dump Fleetwood Mac entirely. They'd be forced to sign with a tiny label or an indie, & might even have to play clubs for $35 a ticket!

Remember, their loss is your gain.

Sorcerer386

10-29-2004, 05:27 PM

I hope not!

It might be nice to see the big labels dump Fleetwood Mac entirely. They'd be forced to sign with a tiny label or an indie, & might even have to play clubs for $35 a ticket!

Remember, their loss is your gain.

Albums or not, I doubt Fleetwood Mac would EVER have to play clubs. They are known as such a great live band, which is why their tickets were so expensive this time around. SYW wasn't a huge success, and they could have been scared enough by that fact to say, "We'd better lower the tour prices." But I think they know that they didn't even have to make SYW in order to launch a successful tour. Maybe when they're 90 and can barely move will they have to play clubs, but their still good enough live to do the arenas.

Les

10-29-2004, 06:21 PM

Maybe when they're 90 and can barely move will they have to play clubs, but their still good enough live to do the arenas.

Playing clubs does not connote poor performances.

Some would argue that the intimate setting of a club makes for a better musical show and a more intimate and fun fan experience.

chiliD

10-29-2004, 06:49 PM

Playing clubs does not connote poor performances.

Some would argue that the intimate setting of a club makes for a better musical show and a more intimate and fun fan experience.

You bet!! In total agreement here.

Johnny Stew

10-29-2004, 07:09 PM

I hope not!

It might be nice to see the big labels dump Fleetwood Mac entirely. They'd be forced to sign with a tiny label or an indie, & might even have to play clubs for $35 a ticket!

Remember, their loss is your gain.

Somehow I have the feeling that Fleetwood Mac would retire before the members collectively agreed to sign with some tiny little label that wouldn't have the ability to front them a million dollars to record an album.

So I think their loss would be our loss in turn. :shrug:

Johnny Stew

10-29-2004, 07:22 PM

Playing clubs does not connote poor performances.

Some would argue that the intimate setting of a club makes for a better musical show and a more intimate and fun fan experience.

No, it definitely doesn't connote poor performances, and, yes, it definitely does allow for a more intimate experience... but, then, it's also not exactly feasible when you have about ten thousand people, on average, attending your shows.

The dates on a Fleetwood Mac club tour would probably sell-out in a matter of minutes, and unless they did five shows in each city, then about 9 thousand+ fans would miss out on the opportunity to see them.

Stevie and Lindsey could do club tours as solo acts, but I have a hard time imagining Fleetwood Mac doing a club tour, without leaving thousands of disappointed people out in the proverbial rain.
Now, if FM toured more frequently, maybe it would be a different story. But their tours tend to be "events" that happen only every 5-6 years (or more).

David

10-29-2004, 08:54 PM

Maybe when they're 90 and can barely move will they have to play clubs, but their still good enough live to do the arenas.Which is unfortunate for all those thousands of fans who find $100 or more for a ticket to be a financial strain.

Remember, their loss is our gain; & their gain is our loss. But that's the marketplace.

David

10-29-2004, 08:56 PM

Some would argue that the intimate setting of a club makes for a better musical show and a more intimate and fun fan experience.I kind of feel that way now, considering how tired I am of the big-time rock concert scene in all those vast halls. But I may just be a crank!

David

10-29-2004, 09:01 PM

No, it definitely doesn't connote poor performances, and, yes, it definitely does allow for a more intimate experience... but, then, it's also not exactly feasible when you have about ten thousand people, on average, attending your shows.Precisely my point. That's a band/business consideration, not a consideration of how enjoyable it is for me, the fan/consumer, or an indication of my pleasure at paying $100+ for tickets & in general supporting the "big rock act" status of Fleetwood Mac.

Look, JS, Fleetwood Mac will do whatever it wants to do, & we're either along for the ride or not. In my own case, it doesn't matter any more. For others, it may be something worth the wringing of hands & the gnashing of teeth.
The dates on a Fleetwood Mac club tour would probably sell-out in a matter of minutes, and unless they did five shows in each city, then about 9 thousand+ fans would miss out on the opportunity to see them.Yeah! You've got the idea now!

Johnny Stew

10-29-2004, 11:17 PM

Precisely my point. That's a band/business consideration, not a consideration of how enjoyable it is for me, the fan/consumer, or an indication of my pleasure at paying $100+ for tickets & in general supporting the "big rock act" status of Fleetwood Mac.

Trust me, David, I'm right there with you in thinking the ticket prices have gotten out of hand.
Even if I could have attended a date on the most recent tour, I never would have been able to afford it.
And I'm sure there are not just a few others in similar financial situations to mine.

I'm just not all that wild about the idea of a club tour for Fleetwood Mac. Which has nothing to do with thinking they're above it, or that it would be slumming... and everything to do with the fact that I just think a lot of people would miss out.

MirrorInTheSky

10-30-2004, 01:18 AM

I guess I'm one of those people who are in the middle. I didn't fly across country to see this band, however, they came through Texas several times during the entire tour. I live in Austin, so I saw them in Dallas, San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston, resepctively. I'm one of those fans who doesn't mind traveling around the state to see them. However, I'm not in a position to 'take to the sky' enough to catch them in other states. Were my fanancial situation a little more improved, then I may consider a flight or two to see them perfrom. It really is a function of economics plus a lot of loyalty that sets consumer behavorial actions.

rianbay1

11-02-2004, 02:11 AM

strandinthewind

11-02-2004, 08:57 AM

oh, hush, Mr. No Votey. What was i supposed to do? be all "no, i'm sorry, i can't accept this thoughtful gift, it was dl'd"? ok, how bout this - you send me $15, and i'll buy Say You Will with it... :D Deal?

How about this - if someone ever steals anything you are selling - I hope you are as willing to accept that lame ass excuse and not prosecute them. That you cannot afford $15.00 is complete and utter bullshi& and you damn well know it :mad:

MacMan

11-02-2004, 09:16 AM

According to Billboard, video longform sales of 50,000 units earn a Gold RIAA certification and 100,000 units earn a platinum. Anyone know if "Live in Boston" has been certified gold yet since it has sold 50,000 units?

Good point... And you are right... I suspect the next time WB pays to have their sales figures audited, we'll see a gold certification for LIB... Cool!!

rianbay1

11-02-2004, 11:40 PM

My other question would be, since it is a DOUBLE dvd (and at $30.00 a pop, priced that way), does it get counted like double album sales in that each unit sold counts as 2? That would make it Platinum :]

wondergirl9847

11-03-2004, 12:34 AM

I heard Something Big on Music Choice the other day. I couldn't believe it! I love MC, because they play stuff you would NEVER hear on the radio. I heard Bare Trees once too. :thumbsup:

amber

11-03-2004, 03:27 AM

How about this - if someone ever steals anything you are selling - I hope you are as willing to accept that lame ass excuse and not prosecute them. That you cannot afford $15.00 is complete and utter bullshi& and you damn well know it :mad:
no, maybe when YOU can't afford $15 it's bull****. sometimes, i have less than $10 a week for food. I know it's hard to think about, when you make a lot of money, but try. I make $250 a week, and my rent is $650.
however...
could i have refused it? yes. was i stoked that someone got it for me? yes. would i have had to wait to get it, at the time? yes.
could i resist listening to it? no.
you know, of course you're right, in a way, but...I don't get stolen things as a rule...do i feel bad by "stealing" a cd from...
multimillionare's Stevie and Lindsey, et al?
a bit, of course, but, i bet they'd rather have me hear it, than not.
After all, they're consummate musicians. they really do,
want poeple to hear,
I think.
Especially with what i spent going to thier concerts.
have you ever read "Hustling, and other Hard Times"?
anyway, look...
I appreciate upper middle class liberal democrats as much as anyone. They are the ones with the time and money to get things done. because money does rule the world...i would gladly be one of you, if.. :shrug:

I was poor growing up, and am poor now. it's a harder cycle to break than people who have never been poor realize. Money really is a whole different Culture...
Yes, people do break it, but for most people raised in it, it is harder than it seems, and takes an incredible amount of will.
So, next time, send me some of that "i just got a massage (muh sahj) ", or "i stay in the best hotels" or "i just bought a $250 pair of shoes" or "I buy my pets"
money,
and i'll be happy to buy the CD.
Not that you should actually send me the money, or that you haven't earned your money...not at all...
but never presume that something is "easy" for someone, when you haven't walked in their shoes.
Try to think about that, before you judge my CD sharing...which was a gift that i didn't even ask for.
And for the record, i do plan on buying Say You Will, eventually.
And, P.S., there are a lot of psychological factors that come into play in families of people that have been poor for generations...which may take extra help to overcome...sure, there are those who can overcome...the few and far between.
but for the rest of us...who may not have had help with psychological barriers, but who are still trying their darndest, to the best of our ability...
I mean, you haven't been able to quit smoking, right? try to think of it like that...
Gaw, for someone to call me out like that, for being Poor...
really chaps my hide in a prime-evil way...it's like Republicans saying "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!"
When i have no bootstraps... :wavey: *

*yeah, as in, HEY :wavey: , over here, from the other side of the money... :)

MacMan

11-03-2004, 06:42 AM

The point was that your comment is insulting to somebody who has recently but reluctantly resorted to accpeting donations so as to keep from going hungry.

Insulting, yes... But if you are hungry, how can you justify having a computer and an internet connection?... Sell your computer and cut off your internet connection - that's got to cost a few bucks a month!! Priorities......

MacMan

11-03-2004, 07:40 AM

Kelly

11-03-2004, 08:39 AM

I don't really see how Jason was knocking being poor, he was knocking downloading a new album. To me it doesn't matter if the band are millionaires, that does not justify getting it for free, however you go about that. I understand being poor, I am not living paycheck to paycheck but I also am not floating in extra cash. Buying extras for myself is usually put on the back burner in order to pay bills, buy stuff for the kids, taking care of the house etc. I even had to take on a second job waitressing to pay for all the front row tickets I wanted this tour and to compensate for the days I had to take off from work to see them 12 or 13 times.
The subject of downloading new or commercially available material is a sticky one and I look at it like this. I love this band and i want to support them, not necessarily financially persay, but with their sales figures etc. I know they all have money, that is not the point for me, I want all their hard work and emotional investment in their album to be acknowledged. Unfortunately the only way they can really gage how people feel about their new album is by the sales figures and possibly the reviews. I am not knocking you Amber, I understand what you are saying. I know what its like, believe me and I hope you understand I am not directing my post at only you. I just know that thousands of people could really say the same thing, " I don't have the money so I will download it", myself included. I can see how that could lead to a drop in sales and that is not supporting the band, IMO.

strandinthewind

11-03-2004, 09:28 AM

Jason, this really is insulting. You don't know what poor is. Neither did I. Growing up middle class with parents who own a couple properties, a mother who just pissed off to Paris and Egypt (and Iceland too which had me puzzled), I thought poor was takinga while to pay off debts and not going out to restaurants. As I sit here (on somebody elses net connection) hungry because I actually cannot buy food and having to contemplate homelessness, I find that statement so insulting. It's not bull****e and she might know more about her situation than you do.

I also had a download of SYW but then bought it. Downloading is not stealing by the way. Stealing is the removal of a copy, eliminating the potential of its sale. Downloading is not removing it but making a replica. Anyway, that's another debate. I can currently download the occasional song which seems like a good option when I can't afford to eat. I don't give a f*ck if Stevie Nicks doesn't get the extra dollar. I don't give a f*ck if Lindsey doesn't get it, and you all know how highly I think of him. The point was that your comment is insulting to somebody who has recently but reluctantly resorted to accpeting donations so as to keep from going hungry.

So what happened to our marriage? That would solve everything. We could buy multiple copies of SYW. You could fly us both halfway, we could even meet my mother in London for Christmas. Ah yes, so romantic. And with that fantasy in mind, I'm about to go and eat a piece of week old bread for dinner.

First of all, how the hell do you know what I know or have experienced? For your information Miss know it all, I have flown halfway across the world more than once to do charity work for people who live in mud huts. I have brought them school supplies, medicines, etc. So, please do not hand me your opinion of what you erroneously think I know.

Next - Amber has often talked about little items that she clearly could have done without for two months or even a few weeks to get this record. But she did not. Instead, she chose to get it for free with little care or regard for whom it could hurt however so slightly. While clearly FM and Warner's can afford this, that does not make it right. The record industry loses millions a year because of theft (and that is what this is) and people therefore lose jobs. But, if you or anyone else is okay with that - so be it, but I think it is utter bullsh*& to call it anything but stealing :shrug:

Again, I do not think any of us would feel the same way if someone stole from us. But and alas, there is the hypocrisy of man.

P.S. I still adore you :cool:

strandinthewind

11-03-2004, 09:33 AM

"That you cannot afford $15.00 is complete and utter bullshi& and you damn well know it"

That was the insulting bit. He wasn't making a joke at poor people, but he was undermining what how dire it can be.

I have no problem with not buying that album seeing as I went broke going to all the Australian shows. They have enough of my support, I'm not going to feel that I did a disservice to their poor souls for not buying the album (which I actually did eventually).

No - I was saying that Amber apparently has a connection to the net and a comp. And she has talked about little items that she could have done without like cigs. So, I think it is bull**** for her or anyone to say they cannot scrape together $15 when all it would take is $2.00 a week or so. Again, she could have also done without until she could had afforded it. But, that concept is too foreign to people. They think "ah screw them and it - they have so much money they will never miss it and I am owed this because they are rich and I am not" - again, I hope no on e ever treats any onf you or me like that.

amber

11-03-2004, 09:08 PM

No - I was saying that Amber apparently has a connection to the net and a comp. And she has talked about little items that she could have done without like cigs. So, I think it is bull**** for her or anyone to say they cannot scrape together $15 when all it would take is $2.00 a week or so. Again, she could have also done without until she could had afforded it. But, that concept is too foreign to people. They think "ah screw them and it - they have so much money they will never miss it and I am owed this because they are rich and I am not" - again, I hope no on e ever treats any onf you or me like that.
:distress:
you obviously missed the part where i did not take it, or ask for it. someone randomly brought it to me. I really think you don't understand where i am coming from. And i just got my very first computer with my school loan. Months and months after the "cd incident". And i am assuming, then, that you never downloaded all the things available to you for free from the mac.
And i never thought "screw them and it", or that i was owed anything. You live like me, then come and talk to me about it...
so glad you still adore Lux.. :)
Amber

strandinthewind

11-03-2004, 09:13 PM

:distress:
you obviously missed the part where i did not take it, or ask for it. someone randomly brought it to me. I really think you don't understand where i am coming from. And i just got my very first computer with my school loan. Months and months after the "cd incident". And i am assuming, then, that you never downloaded all the things available to you for free from the mac.
And i never thought "screw them and it", or that i was owed anything. You live like me, then come and talk to me about it...
so glad you still adore Lux.. :)
Amber

Whatever - let's just drop this.

amber

11-03-2004, 09:20 PM

Sorry bout that, should have been more clear... I was responding to Ambers situation, not yours. If she's hungry, or has no cash for food, then she probably shouldn't have a computer especially with an internet connection. :)
I just got my first computer. The cd was last year. I got the computer with my school loans, because i also need it for school. I'm in school to further my education to get a better job. As in, I have never had a computer until a month ago. And fyi, i did sell things when i was hungry. Except, all i had to sell was books. no car, no bike. nothing else. oh, I sold CD's as well. Now, I usually have enough for my basic, and i mean basic, needs. I still do not have a car or bike. I still rollerblade, walk, and take public transportation to get where i need to go. It's always so funny to me to hear people who have never been poor try to give advice about being poor. You absolutely cannot judge me or give me advice. You clearly have no real idea of what my situation was. Ha, true colors are shown...it's the same prejudice and judgment that it always was. Well, rock on, and try to tell me what i can and cannot do, and what my priorities should be. :wavey: Seriously, you have no grasp whatsoever...

Hawkeye

11-03-2004, 09:24 PM

I think Bush winning has made you guys irretible :laugh: .

amber

11-03-2004, 09:25 PM

Whatever - let's just drop this.
ok. until the next time you come at me with "that is bull****" i'm happy to. And i look forward to seeing you fly to my neighborhood to do charity. Most of the people don't live in mud huts, but they certainly don't have adequate education, healthcare, food, or family life. It would be great to see you! :wavey: :nod:

amber

11-03-2004, 09:27 PM

I think Bush winning has made you guys irretible.
:laugh: yup. Actually, someone who voted democrat but calls me out for being poor and accepting a gift which i never asked for makes me irritable. But i have said i will drop it, so i will.
Congrats - in the not being a bad loser vein.... :mad: but still :laugh:

strandinthewind

11-03-2004, 09:33 PM

No you're exactly right, I don't know what you know or have experienced. I get that from people around here myself, although they usually then go on to accuse me of embodying whatever name-calling insult is fashionable that day. I thought I might get away with it myself but it seems no matter which way it goes, I get caught out. However, I do wonder if these mud hut dwellers had much of an affect if you still think that $15 is a meager amount that anyone can afford. Or was that directed specifically at Amber? I didn't know you were on some personal level with her where you know her income, rates, expenditures etc.

Why do you still adore me? Aren't I a bitch? Not to mention pathetic, or allegedly so. So why haven't you flown halfway across the world to do charity work for me? Not good enough. But I do thankyou for acknowledging my supreme state of awareness and all-knowing senses. It is a gift.

I just have people (or person) with plenty of money, stealing from me despite the fact that I have no money to eat myself. I want to get to be the rich one being stolen from. I'll just wait for my grandad to die, and having said that, hope that no one murders him and traces this post down.

I adore you my dear because you speak your mind and are, perhaps ;) - more didactic than I :xoxo:

glitter_fades

11-04-2004, 02:18 AM

I'm always amazed how Mac fans race to attack other fans in defense of a band operating in a greedy industry that doesn't give a crap about the fans. A poor person should never listen to copied music because the music industry says so? Ever read a book from the library? Thank heaven for Benjamin Franklin. If publishing were a modern invention lobbyists would have libraries outlawed. We'd all be forced to purchase every letter of the written word in the name of protecting intellectual property. Proprietary software developers expect every individual on earth to pay for every new idea in technology and music moguls expect the same for every note of modern music ever created or performed for the rest of eternity. Not charging every person for an individual copy of all the literature ever written has not stopped authors, scholars and journalists from contributing to the culture. If downloading were fully acceptable it wouldn't stop artists from creating music. It would only cut into the obscene profit margins in the music business. I'm not going to freak out over lagging sales for the Mac because some poor kid can't afford a commercial copy of a cd. That's my idea of bull****. If they could afford it most fans would give the band their last dime. The industry knows that's the case and capitalize on it in every possible way, so why begrudge fellow fans some nice music to listen to while wondering where their next meal's coming from?

seeker007nmss

11-04-2004, 01:05 PM

The record industry loses millions a year because of theft (and that is what this is) and people therefore lose jobs.

If you want to see theft, look into the history of Mo-town (as just an example) and see how "The record Industry" screws over the artist time and time again. (Dixie Chicks had to sue most recently to get a fair hand) Talk about theft. I worked in the industry and all they care about is profits and short term cash. They don't care about allowing artists to develop, or the creative process....etc. It's all bottom line cash. They refused to adapt to new technology and whine and make excuses about the fans. When VCR's came out, some of the film industry whined the same way and said "NO one will buy movies anymore, they will just tape them...wahhwahhwahhh...." But now, more movies and DVD's are sold more than ever. Adapt or die music industry.
They need to give the industry back to the people that actually use to "collect" and "listen" to records and not some number crunchers. How many groups today have any albumns with more than 2 good tracks? The rest is garbage because the "industry" wants profits quick and put insane timelines on artists to finsih records. ITS THE MUSIC INDUSTRY'S OWN FAULT THEY ARE IN THE SHAPE AND POSITION THEY ARE IN! Oh by the way, the cost ($2.12 was the cost for a record albumn and now a cd cost less than 12 CENTS. Thanks for making cd's more economical and passing the savings on). Talk about greed and theft.
Add to this the corporate position of radio stations to only play a set program........it goes on and on.......Short term thinking, clueless, greedy, idiots.

Oh, one more thing. Most of a bands money comes from TOURING, not record sales. The label takes a HUGE chunk from the record sales. (To recoup studio time and anything else they can get away with - more accounting games mostly).

Time to get off my soap box and go get a cookie. Maybe two.

seeker007nmss

11-04-2004, 01:14 PM

I'm always amazed how Mac fans race to attack other fans in defense of a band operating in a greedy industry that doesn't give a crap about the fans.

Can't we all just get along? ;)

HomerMcvie

11-04-2004, 01:42 PM

Look at the ticket prices. Your answer IS there. This isn't about art(anymore).

ALTHOUGH, I think Christine's new album would be a Perfect example of doing it for the art of it. :woohoo:

flyfirefly

11-08-2004, 01:58 AM

Downloading is not stealing by the way. Stealing is the removal of a copy, eliminating the potential of its sale. Downloading is not removing it but making a replica.

Actually, it is. Getting something for free that you would normally pay for is called stealing, there's just no other way around it. By downloading it, you eliminate the potential of the sale. I don't see how that can be more clear.

------

And yeah, essentially it costs less than a dollar to make a CD. Do any of you realize how many people actually make it big in the record industry? Try less than 1% of the industry. It costs thousands and thousands of dollars to build an adequate recording studio, and we're not just talking Pro Tools here. Major labels literally have to have a handful of major stars a year-- HAVE TO. This is why the "scene" changes so frequently.

And of course, the public's perception of the industry is awards shows and MTV's Cribs with seemingly mediocre performers with four houses and 5 million dollar diamond studs in each ear, but that performer is few and far between. There are still millions of other bands (on major labels even) in tiny vans travelling across the country playing clubs.

I imagine FM definitely broke even with this whole thing. They were getting $750,000-a-show, and that's just for performing (at least in 2003). Revenue is revenue, no matter what.

amber

11-08-2004, 02:31 AM

Actually, it is. Getting something for free that you would normally pay for is called stealing, there's just no other way around it. By downloading it, you eliminate the potential of the sale. I don't see how that can be more clear.

------

And yeah, essentially it costs less than a dollar to make a CD. Do any of you realize how many people actually make it big in the record industry? Try less than 1% of the industry. It costs thousands and thousands of dollars to build an adequate recording studio, and we're not just talking Pro Tools here. Major labels literally have to have a handful of major stars a year-- HAVE TO. This is why the "scene" changes so frequently.

And of course, the public's perception of the industry is awards shows and MTV's Cribs with seemingly mediocre performers with four houses and 5 million dollar diamond studs in each ear, but that performer is few and far between. There are still millions of other bands (on major labels even) in tiny vans travelling across the country playing clubs.

I imagine FM definitely broke even with this whole thing. They were getting $750,000-a-show, and that's just for performing (at least in 2003). Revenue is revenue, no matter what.
if i buy say you will, the download doesn't really cut into their record sales, does it? And, even with what you say, i feel the fact that i bought Timespace 3 times (1 tape, 2 cd's) and The Dance twice, and paid to see them twice in 2004, will help to keep them afloat...

flyfirefly

11-09-2004, 04:59 PM

I don't know where you're getting the idea that by making a copy of a song, it's suddenly legal to spread around. If I buy the CD, and burn a copy for you the potential sale to you is eliminated. An addition to the sale? What? :eek:

For your reading enjoyment: Highlights from A&M V. Napster (http://http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/napster.htm)

Downloading songs is considering "wholesale reproduction and distribution of copyrighted works" = direct copyright infringement. By ripping a song form a CD you are not transforming the song, you're just putting it in a different medium.

I think a good bulk of people think downloading is okay because hey, Fleetwood Mac is a "supergroup" and they have millions of dollars and spend their days in Hawaii sipping teas. It's not okay. And buying a thousand copies of SYW doesn't justify burning one.

amber

11-09-2004, 05:07 PM

. And buying a thousand copies of SYW doesn't justify burning one.
Wait, if I bought Say You Will, then burned an extra copy for myself...haven't I already bought it, while also not eliminating a potential sale, while also burning a copy? Whatever. It's good to know there is one person out there who's never burned anything. Kudos to you. Thanks for popping in to clarify for everyone. :wavey:

Bryan

11-09-2004, 06:35 PM

It's not okay. And buying a thousand copies of SYW doesn't justify burning one.

:shocked:

I can't BELIEVE there are people getting so lit up about downloading/burning albums. The deal is that it happens anyway..people steal CD's from stores,people download,burn,whatever...not everyone can afford every single piece of music that they want. It's wrong,but it happens anyway!
The main thing is that the music is heard & appreciated...there are even artists out there that value that more than the money (can you believe that! :eek: OMG! ;) )
And at the end of the day,there are far worse crimes happening in the world.Artists know what they are getting into when they choose music as their career..they especially know that if downloading doesn't ruin 'em then the label's probably gonna screw 'em over anyway!

-Bryan

The Tower

11-09-2004, 07:24 PM

Well, I have to say that I have never burnt a CD... ever.

However, that is my personal choice for my own personal reasons. I have produced two CDs on my own and it costs a lot of money and I just can't justify burning CDS. I'm from the old school. Really old.

Besides, I like the booklets with the lyrics and, hopefully, liner notes and cool pictures.

Amber- I know what it's like to have NO money and to have to freak out about every cent. It sucks and I'm sorry you have to deal with it.

Lux- I also know what it's like to not have food and that REALLY sucks. I was homeless for a short period in my early twenties and that combined with the Bush Sr. recession really slammed me when it came to the necessities in life. I hope things get better for you soon.

I understand why people burn CDs, but I don't think it's cool. If I can't afford the music, I don't buy it and don't possess it. As a former semi-professional musician, I know what it's like to try and get people to actually buy your product that you worked long and hard to produce. These days, I just give away the surplus of CDs that I have laying around. But that's my choice to give them away- I'm not making my living as a working musician.

amber

11-09-2004, 07:33 PM

I had never burned a cd, either, towie. I don't think it's super cool. unless it's another copy for me. But someone gave it to me. But, if i buy the CD used, does the artist still get money, again? I didn't think so. I buy a lot of my CD's used (a lot, ha!, i only have like, 20) but anyway

amber

11-09-2004, 09:04 PM

That's an excellent point Amber. My friend and I were discussing this very topic the other day and that scenario came up. I mean, if you sell a used CD you are indeed stopping a potential sale of a new CD where the money would go to the artist and the record company.... But then I suppose some people would claim you are simply transferring ownership, but really the record company would still rather see two sales rather than one copy being passed around.
Ah, i didn't even know whether the artist or record company got the used sale money. I guess someone besides the shop would have to, or they'd shut those places down. I'm not sure how it actually works, but yeah, if the record company gets money, they would probably rather have it resold. :confused:
How mysterious. I don't want to research it right this second, though... :p

flyfirefly

11-09-2004, 11:31 PM

Wow! A little defensive here, eh? Calm down, folks.

First of all, there's a big difference between burning a copy of a CD you already own to say...use in the car, and burning a CD to sell or give away. When I referred to potential sales, there is no line between used CDs or new CDs. The RI really isn't really concerned about that. They're concerned with you actually buying one of them.

Trackaghost: Taping things off TV is not copyright infringement. In fact, there is a case involving the Betamax (Sony Corp. V. Universal City Studios (http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/768/) ) where the court ruled that while the Betamax was a contributory infringer (due to people who copy for the purpose of selling), that taping things of TV for the purpose of watching it later ("time-shifting") is okay. And you're right, there is no evidence the supports the claim that downloading is detrimental to CD sales...but there is no evidence that supports that it's helping it either.

Amber: I never said I haven't burned a CD. I never said I haven't copied something on TV. Also, there's really no point in the industry getting money from the sale of used CDs, they only need to profit once. I'm not sure how that works out but I'm sure it's complicated since the prices are so low.

Lux: It's called Copyright Law. I could care less what you do. But since I was originally responding to your claim that downloading is not stealing, I present the facts as they are.

kenzo

11-10-2004, 05:51 PM

amber

11-10-2004, 05:55 PM

It's pretty funny to see how creative people can be with their rationalizations.

1. Record companies are exploitative so that makes it OK
2. I buy most of my CDs so that makes it OK
3. Downloading actually helps sales so that makes it OK
4. Fleetwood Mac are rich so that makes it OK
5. I'm poor so that makes it OK

Very entertaining, though pitiful. Why don't the thieves just say "I took it and you can't stop me"? Do they feel better about themselves by providing excuses?
I did it cause someone gave it to me. I don't know why they did it. Add that to your list. What's your excuse? Or, have you never burned anything? Or downloaded anything? probably not. Thanks for sharing.

Bryan

11-10-2004, 06:28 PM

It's pretty funny to see how creative people can be with their rationalizations.

1. Record companies are exploitative so that makes it OK
2. I buy most of my CDs so that makes it OK
3. Downloading actually helps sales so that makes it OK
4. Fleetwood Mac are rich so that makes it OK
5. I'm poor so that makes it OK

Very entertaining, though pitiful. Why don't the thieves just say "I took it and you can't stop me"? Do they feel better about themselves by providing excuses?

Well,I don't recall anyone actually saying it was okay,but yes,those are exactly the excuses I used to use when I would steal CD's..you're very clever :nod:
Anyways,no,It didn't make me feel better by providing excuses because at the end of the day I took them and nobody stopped me! :p

-Bryan

estranged4life

11-10-2004, 07:10 PM

about live unauthorized recordings and how the RIAA does not see it as a threat as much as some are led to be believed (The link to this article is from my trade pages):

http://www.angelfire.com/music3/rhiannon/Trade-Article.html

Brian j.

dissention

11-10-2004, 07:21 PM

amber

11-10-2004, 07:23 PM

OMG, I used to LOVE getting refund checks towards the end of semester. :laugh: Those were happy days in my world!!!!!!!
Sesly... :)
But, wait, refund? for ?. But when i got my loan i was like "I'M RICH! I'M RICH!"
hehehe...

flyfirefly

11-10-2004, 07:26 PM

Spot the law student eh?

Isn't that the case I said though?

Um...I was further explaining the case and it's relation to what we were discussing, and providing the link if anyone else wanted to read up on it.

I've read the school study before but it's clearly just a hypothesis. Back when Napster was new and available, I definitely used it to check out new artists and subsequently buy their CDs, but if you consider how many millions of people used the service...there's just no correlation.

dissention

11-10-2004, 07:28 PM

Sesly... :)
But, wait, refund? for ?. But when i got my loan i was like "I'M RICH! I'M RICH!"
hehehe...

If I had extra money in my account for books, they'd send a check for that amount. Or if I waived health insurance, I'd get a check for that. Happy, happy days. :thumbsup:

And as long as you buy the damn CD eventually, I don't give two ****s about the burned copy of SYW you have. :laugh:

estranged4life

11-10-2004, 07:33 PM

And as long as you buy the damn CD eventually, I don't give two ****s about the burned copy of SYW you have. :laugh:

to what a Pearl Jam band member said on the SONY website when asked the following question:

Q-"Do you care that some people may make copies of the "Official Bootleg" cd's that you're selling on the Ten Fan Club website? And if so does it bother you that you'll lose money in the process?"

A-"Don't give a ****"-Eddie Vedder

amber

11-10-2004, 08:59 PM

So long as we entertain, although you appear to be very easily amused. Just a personal preference but I require a bit more wit and/or vibration to be entertained.

All of life's miseries to spend my nights contemplating, but you're right, it is the fact that I've downloaded a song or two. Gosh darn it, you're putting me through the guilt trip. Now I shan't sleep at night because somewhere in my mind I'll always know that I am a criminal. Oh the excuses, I confess, they were just to ease my staggeringly low self-esteen. This, a tragic result of my own pathetic actions. I shall forever be a threat to society and have to live with this guilt. No, I reject your offers of support. I must go this journey alone.
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: :lol:
Stawwppp!

flyfirefly

11-10-2004, 09:08 PM

No one's saying don't download. Just be smart about it.

There are tons of great bands with websites that offer free mp3s and even some big name artists who stream their album (free) online before it's physical release. Even Fleetwood Mac did this.

The problem lies in the fact that millions of people do this every day--they download entire albums, or they burn enough so that there is really no reason to buy the actual album at all. And then, it doesn't matter if the band is wonderful because they won't have generated enough sales for the record company to consider another release.

David

11-10-2004, 09:27 PM

The problem lies in the fact that millions of people do this every day--they download entire albums, or they burn enough so that there is really no reason to buy the actual album at all. And then, it doesn't matter if the band is wonderful because they won't have generated enough sales for the record company to consider another release.I used to steal & steal often. I used clients like BearShare. Then I began to see just how little was even worth stealing, let alone buying.

HomerMcvie

11-10-2004, 09:53 PM

I used to steal & steal often. I used clients like BearShare. Then I began to see just how little was even worth stealing, let alone buying.
I have done more than my fair share also. I admit, it's stealing. HOWEVER(and this doesn't excuse it), I can say, almost without exception, that I wouldn't have bought the title anyway. So, although I might've downloaded the artist's work, my effect on their checking account balance was zero.
I gladly pay for the work of artist that I know and love.

JamieSPC

11-11-2004, 10:28 AM

I used to download tons of stuff, both from file sharing and the iTunes store. Until I got my iPod, and started listening a lot through headphones.

Listening through headphones opened up a whole new musical world for me. Listening intently to what producers and mixers have done with music is fascinating to me, and has put a new spin on records I've heard hundreds of times (even some Mac stuff).

The problem with most downloaded music, including iTunes' AAC files, is they "sound" compressed. Hi hats and cymbal crashes sound swirly and synthesized. That pure Hammond organ sound takes on a breathy quality. Vocals seem to have less range and occasionally distort. Ripping CDs directly, either lossless or at 320mbps, eliminated or at least improved this to the point I can barely listen to compressed files anymore.

strandinthewind

11-11-2004, 10:35 AM

hayley

11-11-2004, 11:18 AM

I used to download tons of stuff, both from file sharing and the iTunes store. Until I got my iPod, and started listening a lot through headphones.

Jesus doesn't love thieves!

Don't know if this point got cleared up from a couple of pages ago, because all of this is insufferable, but it's perfectly okay for you to make a copy of a legally purchased CD for YOURSELF. It's fine to burn one for the car, or to put the tracks on your iPod. Where that stops being okay is when you transfer or give a copy of that music to anyone besides yourself or someone in your household.

flyfirefly

11-11-2004, 11:18 AM

Wait until you hear SACD (http://www.superaudio-cd.com/technology_explained/sacd_in_plain_english/).

JamieSPC

11-11-2004, 11:40 AM

Jesus doesn't love thieves!

That was ridiculous, stupid and uncalled for. Oh, and wrong. Luke 23:39-43... but I suppose you're fairly cool, what with your Strongbad avatar and all (I LOVE <a href="http://www.homestarrunner.com">homestarrunner</a>).

Sorry for that. Now... I haven't heard SACD (couldn't justify getting it since no FM or other favorite stuff has been released on the format). But DVD-A is fantastic. The FM DVD-As are very good, but Steely Dan's "Gaucho" is amazing. It really opens up the mix. Some of their later stuff is so good it seems to have been recorded with 5.1-channel audio in mind.

flyfirefly

11-11-2004, 12:44 PM

Don't know if this point got cleared up from a couple of pages ago, because all of this is insufferable, but it's perfectly okay for you to make a copy of a legally purchased CD for YOURSELF. It's fine to burn one for the car, or to put the tracks on your iPod. Where that stops being okay is when you transfer or give a copy of that music to anyone besides yourself or someone in your household.

THANK YOU! My words were being a little twisted earlier.

estranged4life

11-11-2004, 01:05 PM

the minority since I never downloaded/burnt official material from the 'net...

I have spent quite a-bit more money this year on new cd releases mainly due to the record companies adding extra's to official releases such as bonus discs/DVD's/etc. to lure people away from downloading releases...And I for one like this way of enticement, Hopefully others do too.

Brian j.

sodascouts

11-11-2004, 07:23 PM

Jesus doesn't love thieves!

Jesus to the thief on the cross: "Today you shall be with me in paradise." Luke 23:42. If you're going to make off-topic snipes at people at least get your facts straight.

Don't know if this point got cleared up from a couple of pages ago, because all of this is insufferable, but it's perfectly okay for you to make a copy of a legally purchased CD for YOURSELF. It's fine to burn one for the car, or to put the tracks on your iPod. Where that stops being okay is when you transfer or give a copy of that music to anyone besides yourself or someone in your household.

I see the logic of this, but I guess I have to wonder where do we draw the line? For instance, if I give a copy to a member of my household, that means they won't buy it. How is that different from giving it to a friend?

I am on the fence about the issue. I download songs as kind of testers, then only buy the album if I like it enough. But I can't say this is technically any better than someone who downloads and never buys the album, because we've both downloaded the same song for free, and according to the record industry, we're both stealing.

That being said, personally, I don't feel comfortable downloading an entire CD and burning it. But again technically the record industry doesn't see a difference.

flyfirefly

11-11-2004, 07:35 PM

That being said, personally, I don't feel comfortable downloading an entire CD and burning it. But again technically the record industry doesn't see a difference.

Sure they do. When they sue people for infringment, the RIAA can charge $10,000+ per song downloaded. They usually settle for quite a bit less than that. Not sure exactly if they're looking at songs downloaded using a particular method (through Napster, KaZaA, etc.) or what...but I suppose the potential is there.

dissention

11-11-2004, 10:32 PM

Jesus to the thief on the cross: "Today you shall be with me in paradise." Luke 23:42. If you're going to make off-topic snipes at people at least get your facts straight.

I think Hayley was being sarcastic, but it's nice to know that Jesus loves Madalyn O'Hair after all. :D

hayley

11-12-2004, 12:17 AM

I think Hayley was being sarcastic, but it's nice to know that Jesus loves Madalyn O'Hair after all. :D

Hayley was being sarcastic, but Hayley also doesn't give a crap if anyone finds her as funny as she finds herself.

Frankly, as a person actually working in the recording industry, I'd rather make off-topic snipes than belabor anyone here with reiterating that downloading a song, a thousand songs, an album, a thousand albums- doesn't matter- is stealing in the eyes of the law, and that it affects an entire food chain of people, from the artist to their management to the top tiers of the record labels all the way down to ME.

Blahblahblahstealingisbadcakes.