House Defeats Gay Marriage Ban Amendment

[Johnny Stew]

House Defeats Gay Marriage Ban Amendment
By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON - The House emphatically rejected a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage Thursday, the latest in a string of conservative pet causes advanced by Republican leaders in the run-up to Election Day.

The vote was 227-186, 49 votes shy of the two-thirds needed for approval of an amendment that President Bush backed but the Senate had previously scuttled.

"God created Adam and Eve, He didn't create Adam and Steve," said Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md., on behalf of a measure that supporters said was designed to protect an institution as old as civilization itself.

Democrats countered that Republicans were motivated by election-year politics as much as anything, particularly since a Senate vote this year ended any immediate chance the amendment could be sent to the states for ratification.

Rep. Steny Hoyer of Maryland, the Democratic whip, accused GOP leaders of "raw political cynicism" and said they hoped to "create the fodder for a demagogic political ad."

Bush issued a statement expressing disappointment with the vote's outcome.

"Because activist judges and local officials in some parts of the country are seeking to redefine marriage for the rest of the country, we must remain vigilant in defending traditional marriage," the president said.

The measure drew the support of 191 Republicans and 36 Democrats. Voting against it were 158 Democrats, 27 Republicans and one independent.

The debate on the gay marriage amendment came a day after the House voted 250-171 to overturn a 28-year municipal ban on handgun ownership in the District of Columbia. And last week, Republicans forced a vote on legislation to protect the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance from court challenge. It passed, 247-173.

While both of those measures face uncertain prospects in the Senate, they — along with the gay marriage proposal — appeal to voting groups whose support Republicans are counting on in the Nov. 2 elections. Recent surveys in battleground states in the presidential race indicate roughly one-quarter of Bush's supporters say moral or family values are uppermost in their minds.

The gay marriage amendment said marriage in the United States "shall consist only of a man and a woman." It also would have required that neither the U.S. Constitution nor any state constitution "shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman."

Even among majority Republicans, the issue generated dissent.

Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, was the principal speaker on behalf of the measure, taking a role that is almost always reserved for the chairman of the committee with jurisdiction. In this case, though, the leadership bypassed the Judiciary Committee, and GOP officials said the panel's chairman, Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., made clear he wanted no part of the debate. His spokesman did not immediately return a call for comment.

DeLay said the need for congressional action was "forced upon us by activist judges trying to legislate from the bench." He noted that under 1996 legislation passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton, marriage is defined as between a man of a woman.

"One would think this would be the end of the story. But it is not," DeLay said. The law is "under an incessant and coordinated attack in the federal courts," where he said judges feel a greater "responsibility to their own political ideology than the Constitution."

"The limitations of traditional marriage rest not on an intent to discriminate, but on what is most beneficial for society and children as evidenced by volumes of social science research," added Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, R-Colo.

"Traditional marriage is worth preserving, because the nuclear family is far and away the best environment in which to raise children. Every child deserves both a father and a mother," said Musgrave, whose persistent advocacy for the measure has gained her national notice unusual for a first-term lawmaker.

Critics saw it differently.

"We feel love and we feel it in a way different than you," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who is openly gay. "We feel it with someone of the same sex, male or female, and we look at your institution of marriage and we see the joy it brings. How do we hurt you when we share it?"

Rep. Jim McGovern, D-Mass. quoted Vice President Dick Cheney — who has a gay daughter — as saying, "The fact of the matter is that we live in a free society and freedom means freedom for everybody."

Public polls show strong opposition to gay marriage, but opinion is about evenly divided regarding a federal constitutional amendment to ban it.

At the same time, voters in 11 states will decide the fate of proposed amendments to their state constitutions this fall, and opponents of bans on gay marriage concede they will be difficult to stop.

The issue has gained prominence this year. Massachusetts residents have had first-in-the-nation rights to same sex marriages since May, the result of a ruling by the state's highest court. A judge in Washington recently struck down that state's ban on same-sex marriage.

[Johnny Stew]

"God created Adam and Eve, He didn't create Adam and Steve," said Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md.

Good grief. If I had a penny for every time some goober recited that quote, I'd..... well, I'd probably be Republican! ;)

Since Representative Roscoe P. Coltrane is using "Adam & Eve/not Adam & Steve" as the basis for backing the amendment to ban gay marriage, perhaps he'd like to explain to me how Adam, Eve, and their two sons populated the world. The best explanation I've ever been able to find, was that they did it incestuously.
So, does Roscoe therefore support incestuous marriages? After all, it would seem the bible doesn't frown on those. :rolleyes:


"The limitations of traditional marriage rest not on an intent to discriminate, but on what is most beneficial for society and children as evidenced by volumes of social science research," added Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, R-Colo.

"Traditional marriage is worth preserving, because the nuclear family is far and away the best environment in which to raise children. Every child deserves both a father and a mother," said Musgrave, whose persistent advocacy for the measure has gained her national notice unusual for a first-term lawmaker.

Republicans like Ms. Muskrat would rather have children living parent-less in orphanages, than have a gay or lesbian couple raising them.

So I guess that means that having no parents at all, is better than having one parent or same-sex parents, in the eyes of Republican politicians.
Good to know.

And if she wants to cite "social science research," then she must have conveniently overlooked the fact that children raised in a loving, stable home... no matter whether there's only one parent present, or if there are two parents of the same-gender... have been proven to be far more well-adjusted in both childhood and in their adult lives, than those who are raised in un-loving and un-stable homes, by two heterosexual parents. Or those raised with no parents at all.

They are so damned stubborn about their "two parent/nuclear family/all-hetero" environments, that they refuse to admit when they're off-base. Even if "social science research" doesn't back up their claims.

[Patti]

There is a woman I am very close to who was raised in a "nuclear" two-parent traditional family. Everyone thought it was the perfect childhood. Two parents, two daughters, everything was lovely.

Unfortunately, what no one knew was the father delighted in sexually abusing the two daughters, with the consent of the mother. Yet on the surface, everything was lovely.

The woman went on to marry at a very early age. She married an abusive man, but isn't that the way marriage is supposed to be? Finally, after 20+ years she had the courage to leave. At that point, she had had enough of men and realized that she had been hiding a dark secret of her own for many years. She was a lesbian.

So said woman went on to find love and stability in a relationship with another woman. They decided to have a child together. That child is now almost 4 and the light of their lives. He lives with two moms who adore him. The moms know that it will be tough to raise him in this environment, but there is enough love in the household to weather the storm.

I have a very difficult time swallowing the "one mother/one father" statement when I know of this story. This child will live with more parental love than his mom ever did. HOW IS THAT WRONG????? Simple. It's not. If some of those holier-than-thou types who claim to know what is right for everyone had walked a mile in the shoes of an abused child, they could not and would not ever back the gay marriage amendment.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

I cannot believe he actually used the "Adam and steve" thing..what a loser..

Chris

[strandinthewind]

I cannot believe he actually used the "Adam and steve" thing..what a loser..

Chris

The simple fact is gay people make straight people cringe. Even though many straight people have gay friends, many straight people still consider gay people an abberation to be abhored or at least disrespected. They may not express this out loud, but they feel it on some level. AND- the gay community knows this but never really publicly admits it, and wisely so IMO. A good example of this thought is that the ads supporting the proponents of gay marriage (usually submitted by a gay rights organization) never ever show two guys kissing or holding hands or at the alter. Although they claim society is ready to or should accept this, etc., they know this turns most people's stomachs to some degree. Conversly, the proponents of Christian only marriage gleefully show two guys kissing, etc., because they know it will rally their troops. I mean look at this story about Jimmy Swaggart said last week:
_______________________________________________

In the broadcast, Swaggart was discussing his opposition to gay marriage when he said, "I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry. And I'm going to be blunt and plain: If one ever looks at me like that, I'm going to kill him and tell God he died."

The comment drew laughter and applause from the congregation.

Wednesday, Swaggart said he's jokingly used the expression "killing someone and telling God he died" thousands of times, about all sorts of people. He said the expression is figurative, and not meant to harm. Swaggart also dismissed contentions from gay advocacy groups that such language encourages violence against gay men and lesbians.
________________________________________________

Let's assume ole Jimmy "I have SINNED" Swaggart really meant it as a joke (which I can assure he did not - he meant it as a slam against gays and he could care a less whether it causes violence :mad: ) - but let's assume it anyway. What does that humor tell us. It submit it tells us that most straight people feel the same way to some degree. Most, but certainly not all, straight men in general (AGAIN IN GENERAL :laugh: ) find the thought of another guy being sexually attracted to them at the least uncomfortable - this is based somewhat on nature, but I think mostly on the far Christian right's constant villifying of gay people as against God, usupers, etc. I submit many if not most (again not all) straight guys relate to finding the idea of beating up a gay guy who comes on to them or at least get the joke, which supports violence against gays on some level and goes back to the whole gay people are okay but just not around or to me line of thinking. So, until that is changed, I submit people will always in general (AGAIN IN GENERAL) think of gay people as this sort of tolerated second class citizen and that their whole cry for equal rights is just as silly as their limp wrists, which again they in the abtract do not in general really mind, but the same cannot be said when it effects them directly - when the direct effect happens, the so called socially liberal minds make a joke about beating up a gay guy.

Politicans understand this fear, ignorance, bias, etc., and use it to perpetuate their cause. BOTH sides do it - can you say Clinton as the great defender of gay rights :laugh: (I know I know Clinton did more than anyone else - but he used the issue and then failed to deliver on his promises and caved and compromised (gays in the military, DOMA, etc. ) to the detriminet of those he professed to champion - that cannot really be denied). The R's are just on the hate side IMO.

Food for Thought :cool:

[Nixxxed]

The Most, but certainly not all, straight men in general (AGAIN IN GENERAL :laugh: ) find the thought of another guy being sexually attracted to them at the least uncomfortable

If I had a dollar for every time a "straight" guy - yes, the typical jock womanizing stereotype that is the opposite of the typical limp-wristed gay stereotype - has come on to me, wanting a BJ (or more) because his wife/girlfriend won't put out or because he's "curious", I'd be mondo-rich, and I would have received one of Bush's tax cuts. :nod:

[dissention]

Most, but certainly not all, straight men in general (AGAIN IN GENERAL :laugh: ) find the thought of another guy being sexually attracted to them at the least uncomfortable - this is based somewhat on nature, but I think mostly on the far Christian right's constant villifying of gay people as against God, usupers, etc.

To be honest, I don't think this is true. By nature, everyone has a crush or a faint sexual feeling towards a member of their sex. It happens naturally in puberty and there is evidence to suggest that while it may diminish somewhat as people age, the feelings are always still present to some degree. I believe that, generally speaking, a great number of men are secretly happy about another man being attracted to them. It doesn't mean that they are attracted to that person, but it also doesn't mean that they are gay if the feeling is mutual to some degree. Most of the time, it has more to do with ego than anything else and while they may perpetuate the feeling that they are grossed out and uncomfortable, I don't think they are. Personally, I consider myself to be as straight as the sky is blue, but I'll never say that I haven't been attracted to a man before. If I did, I'd be a liar; they're all normal feelings.*

*And there is that Doug Wilson, who, for some reason, gets me incredibly hot.

[dissention]

If I had a dollar for every time a "straight" guy - yes, the typical jock womanizing stereotype that is the opposite of the typical limp-wristed gay stereotype - has come on to me, wanting a BJ (or more) because his wife/girlfriend won't put out or because he's "curious", I'd be mondo-rich, and I would have received one of Bush's tax cuts. :nod:

You are so bad. :laugh: :lol:

[Nixxxed]

You are so bad. :laugh: :lol:

I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way!!! :angel:

[wondergirl9847]

Since Representative Roscoe P. Coltrane is using "Adam & Eve/not Adam & Steve" as the basis for backing the amendment to ban gay marriage, perhaps he'd like to explain to me how Adam, Eve, and their two sons populated the world. The best explanation I've ever been able to find, was that they did it incestuously.
So, does Roscoe therefore support incestuous marriages? After all, it would seem the bible doesn't frown on those. :rolleyes:

Seriously, that is the first thing I'm asking God when I get to Heaven. How did Adam and Eve's children populate the world without having a sister. LOL

I went through a few years ago and read the Bible cover to cover and wrote down my fave passages and such. I need to go back and re-read it again, to find things I'd like to ask God about. :laugh:

The most fascinating book ever written. :)

[Nixxxed]

I'll never say that I haven't been attracted to a man before. If I did, I'd be a liar; they're all normal feelings.*

*And there is that Doug Wilson, who, for some reason, gets me incredibly hot.

So YOU'RE my secret admirer!!! Thanks for all the flowers!!! How did you know gladiolas were my favorite??? (It's okay to admit it -- no one else is reading this thread, I promise...)

And, I totally agree about Doug Wilson. May I suggest that your fascination with him is the fact that he wears leather pants? ;) Do you look as good in yours as he does in his? If so ... argggggghhhhhhhh.

[amber]

If I had a dollar for every time a "straight" guy - yes, the typical jock womanizing stereotype that is the opposite of the typical limp-wristed gay stereotype - has come on to me, wanting a BJ (or more) because his wife/girlfriend won't put out or because he's "curious", I'd be mondo-rich, and I would have received one of Bush's tax cuts. :nod:
I've heard this (well, I should say about this, since i'm a girl) a lot. In fact, it was just in a column in the SF Chronicle a few months back. A guy was telling a cab driver he was going on a date with a girl, but that he usually stops somewhere to "get one" before his dates, cause it relieves some pressure. Also, as far as I can tell from whoever, wherever i've talked to, boys are better at it cause they have the same stuff and know exactly how it should be.... :wavey: (hope this didn't offend anyone) Oh, and this reminds me, I was talking with a guy friend of mine when i was about 20, and we were talking about Astrology. And he's all "The only Cancer girl I went out with gave the best beej....but, I found out later, that she used to be a man!" :laugh:
AMber

[amber]

Seriously, that is the first thing I'm asking God when I get to Heaven. How did Adam and Eve's children populate the world without having a sister. LOL

I went through a few years ago and read the Bible cover to cover and wrote down my fave passages and such. I need to go back and re-read it again, to find things I'd like to ask God about. :laugh:

The most fascinating book ever written. :)
What i've always thought (and i'm not religious in the normal christian sense) is that, since statistically, throughout all of time, 10-25% of the population has been gay, well, if you believe god created everything, then you must believe he (he being a convenient pronoun) did create gay people. And then I started thinking, in theory, wouldn't this be a good creation to keep population down? I mean, not DOWN, but kind of, controlled? Anyway, those were my musings....
AMber

[Nixxxed]

I've heard this (well, I should say about this, since i'm a girl) a lot. In fact, it was just in a column in the SF Chronicle a few months back. A guy was telling a cab driver he was going on a date with a girl, but that he usually stops somewhere to "get one" before his dates, cause it relieves some pressure. Also, as far as I can tell from whoever, wherever i've talked to, boys are better at it cause they have the same stuff and know exactly how it should be.... :wavey: (hope this didn't offend anyone)
AMber

It happens all the time once "straight" guys find out I'm gay or once I tell them. And I'm not incredibly good-looking or super suave or even asking for the attention. They seem to think all gay guys are up for it anytime, anywhere, with anyone, and that's simply not the case for every gay person.

This "phenomenon" has even been the subject of one of Oprah's shows recently, for cripe's sake. Slang-wise, it's called being "On the DL" (down-low). I think the focus of her show was centered on the black community, but it by no means is restricted to them.

[amber]

It happens all the time once "straight" guys find out I'm gay or once I tell them. And I'm not incredibly good-looking or super suave or even asking for the attention. They seem to think all gay guys are up for it anytime, anywhere, with anyone, and that's simply not the case for every gay person.

This "phenomenon" has even been the subject of one of Oprah's shows recently, for cripe's sake. Slang-wise, it's called being "On the DL" (down-low). I think the focus of her show was centered on the black community, but it by no means is restricted to them.
Yeah, I hope it was centered on the black community. oh, i edited my post, there's a funny story at the end, go back and read it. But I think the cab guy was a different phenomenon than hiding being gay, which i think is rampant in the black community, and very detrimental (for spreading diseases to wives) and i'm not saying that only gay guys spread stuff, cause that would make me a moron. I'm saying that anyone cheating could spread a nasty disease to their spouse, but if you are gay, and you are still trying to be married to a woman, that you're really going to HAVE to cheat, because you're living a lie, and you're probably not attracted to your spouse - BECAUSE SHE'S NOT A GUY!! :D
And for the guys that approach you, whether they're gay or not, I hardly know any guys who would turn down a quality beej.... :D but how presumptuous to ask you (?)
AMber

[Sugar]

Most, but certainly not all, straight men in general (AGAIN IN GENERAL :laugh: ) find the thought of another guy being sexually attracted to them at the least uncomfortable - this is based somewhat on nature, but I think mostly on the far Christian right's constant villifying of gay people as against God, usupers, etc.

I remember seeing a gay advocate talk YEARS AGO about how straight men react to gay men. He said, "They're afraid of us treating them like they've treated women for years," and I think there's a lot to this.

I think a lot of white Christian men still want to see themselves as the masters of the universe and guard that notion vehimently (It's the same reason I think Christians are so rabid; it's not about maintaining their lifestyle, but about their lifestyle's dominance, but that's another thread :lol: )

If women are the weaker sex, that the only real threat to a man is another man. And if that man is dominant, then guess who is "the woman". That sort of thing.

Anyway, it's all crap. I'm glad they defeated the amendment. Few things boil my britches worse that listening to that homophobic crap. It's all just senseless bull****, and they (homophobes) don't even care that it makes no sense. If you back them in a corner then it's either stupid little "Adam and Steve" comments, the bible says so (ie I'm not required to think and use the brain that God gave me on this subject), or just mean and threatening.

All in the name of being superior... :mad:

OK...I'm stopping now... :cool:

[GateandGarden]

Anyway, it's all crap. I'm glad they defeated the amendment. Few things boil my britches worse that listening to that homophobic crap. It's all just senseless bull****, and they (homophobes) don't even care that it makes no sense. If you back them in a corner then it's either stupid little "Adam and Steve" comments, the bible says so (ie I'm not required to think and use the brain that God gave me on this subject), or just mean and threatening.

All in the name of being superior... :mad:

OK...I'm stopping now... :cool:I was going to say all of that but you said it well.
:nod:

I don't know why, but I'm surprised that it was shot down by so few votes. I really thought it had more opposition than that. :shrug:

Hillary

[jadegypsy]

well it's a good thing, I can't figure out why ppl have a problem with gay marriage, its not like it will ever effect my marriage, not to sound rude but I simply can't figue out how it would make marriage less "sacred." As for the "Adam and Eve" comment last time I checked marriage was a CIVIL union, and we have seperation of curch and state in this country so what "God" did or did not say in the bible is a bit irrelevent when examining marriage in a civil union/governmental aspect. As for those of us that aren't christian, well that argument is just downright insulting...Now if ppl want to get married in a church well that's a whole different aspect...As for the "nuclear" family argument, I have seen more then my share of "nuclear" families that had serious problems...

[amber]

well it's a good thing, I can't figure out why ppl have a problem with gay marriage, its not like it will ever effect my marriage, not to sound rude but I simply can't figue out how it would make marriage less "sacred." As for the "Adam and Eve" comment last time I checked marriage was a CIVIL union, and we have seperation of curch and state in this country so what "God" did or did not say in the bible is a bit irrelevent when examining marriage in a civil union/governmental aspect. As for those of us that aren't christian, well that argument is just downright insulting...Now if ppl want to get married in a church well that's a whole different aspect...As for the "nuclear" family argument, I have seen more then my share of "nuclear" families that had serious problems...
Well said, esp. about the civil union thing, separation of church and state and all that!! :xoxo:

[The Tower]

It's all just senseless bull****, and they (homophobes) don't even care that it makes no sense. If you back them in a corner then it's either stupid little "Adam and Steve" comments, the bible says so (ie I'm not required to think and use the brain that God gave me on this subject), or just mean and threatening.

All in the name of being superior...

The reason why it makes no sense is because it's all based on fear and fear is usually irrational.

The archetypal "straight dudes" are basically f*cked because they're in a Catch 22. They can't admit that the reason they can't deal with fags is because they are afraid, and they can't accept the fact that it's possible for them to be afraid. So, the demonizing begins- because it's easier to distract everyone by demonizing, than to even entertain the thought that one might examine one's own shortcomings.

The archetypal "straight dude" is the absolute bane of society and the cause of most of the ills that humanity has had to suffer, and continues to suffer to this day.

[jadegypsy]

Well said, esp. about the civil union thing, separation of church and state and all that!!

Why thank you! Now if the rest of the ppl in this country could just agree, the polititians could focus on health care, education and child-care. Issues that are more public, under the goverments authority, and willtruly affect everyones lives!

[amber]

Why thank you! Now if the rest of the ppl in this country could just agree, the polititians could focus on health care, education and child-care. Issues that are more public, under the goverments authority, and willtruly affect everyones lives!
I know. I guess it's hard for people like us to imagine why anyone really cares :shrug: but, people really do care. And it's so weird to imagine especially religious people caring. you know, if God made everyone in his image and all that (see my post previous page :p ). The bible was just written by a bunch of people... :shrug: And I think you're supposed to just take away the lessons to live by. I mean, every culture has it's myths and stories about how the world was made, but they are mainly to provide lessons on how to treat each other, and the planet...ok, sorry... :rolleyes:
Amber

[dissention]

So YOU'RE my secret admirer!!! Thanks for all the flowers!!! How did you know gladiolas were my favorite??? (It's okay to admit it -- no one else is reading this thread, I promise...)

:laugh: Send me a plane ticket, dammit!

And, I totally agree about Doug Wilson. May I suggest that your fascination with him is the fact that he wears leather pants? ;) Do you look as good in yours as he does in his? If so ... argggggghhhhhhhh.

I could only hope to look so good in leather pants. ;)

[amber]

The reason why it makes no sense is because it's all based on fear and fear is usually irrational.

The archetypal "straight dudes" are basically f*cked because they're in a Catch 22. They can't admit that the reason they can't deal with fags is because they are afraid, and they can't accept the fact that it's possible for them to be afraid. So, the demonizing begins- because it's easier to distract everyone by demonizing, than to even entertain the thought that one might examine one's own shortcomings.

The archetypal "straight dude" is the absolute bane of society and the cause of most of the ills that humanity has had to suffer, and continues to suffer to this day.
i would have to agree with you to some extent, Towie. :nod: But the question is, what about people who are afraid and not secretly gay? what are they afraid of? just cause it "grosses them out?" big whoop. It grosses me out that Koreans eat dogs and torture them first so the meat is more tender, but...ok, wait, bad example. But still, I just don't get it! Well...maybe i'll just put on my tube dress and give it some more thought... :)
Amber

[amber]

I could only hope to look so good in leather pants. ;)
Walking fast, as excercise, will make your butt really tight and round.. ;) Amber's tip for the day! (my butt has been legendary since 3rd grade :laugh: :D )

[dissention]

Walking fast, as excercise, will make your butt really tight and round.. ;) Amber's tip for the day! (my butt has been legendary since 3rd grade :laugh: :D )

:lol: My ass is fine, otherwise I wouldn't wear them! You know the best exercise for your ass? Stairmaster for twenty minutes, bend over to touch your toes for fifteen, and then back on the Stairmaster for ten. Works wonders!!

[amber]

:lol: My ass is fine, otherwise I wouldn't wear them! You know the best exercise for your ass? Stairmaster for twenty minutes, bend over to touch your toes for fifteen, and then back on the Stairmaster for ten. Works wonders!!
Yes, that one is good too. But, for free at home, i can walk, and do lots of kickbacks. kickbacks are my friend...also, just simple butt squeezes, 3 sets of fifty, and the good part about that is i'm doing kegels at the same time! TMI? Maybe.... :D

[dissention]

TMI? Maybe.... :D

No more than my disclosure of lusting after Doug Wilson and my exercise routine for my rear-end. :laugh:

[amber]

No more than my disclosure of lusting after Doug Wilson and my exercise routine for my rear-end. :laugh:
:xoxo: good point. IS NOTHING SACRED?!!! (as bob seger comes on the radio singing "points on her own, way up firm and high....WAY UP FIRM AND HIGH!! :D ) I really like seger, i've realized.... :confused:

[Sugar]

i would have to agree with you to some extent, Towie. :nod: But the question is, what about people who are afraid and not secretly gay? what are they afraid of? just cause it "grosses them out?" big whoop.
Amber

At the risk of speaking for The Tower, I didn't get anything in his post about anyone being secretly gay. I gave a couple of examples of fear in my previous post. But I agree, it has to be about fear, nothing else makes people act that way.

I thought Tower's catch 22 was dead on, by the way... :nod:

[amber]

At the risk of speaking for The Tower, I didn't get anything in his post about anyone being secretly gay. I gave a couple of examples of fear in my previous post. But I agree, it has to be about fear, nothing else makes people act that way.

I thought Tower's catch 22 was dead on, by the way... :nod:
Right, he didn't say anything about that, but i've gathered that some of the prejudice and violence and hate came from people who were secretly gay and didn't want to be. I mean, that's just common knowledge. Also, that kind of fear makes sense to me, was my point. I mean, not "sense" as in it's right, but, a reason that would make someone SO anti gay. But I really don't understand other people's fear, people that aren't secretly gay...as in, what are they so threatened by, you know? Like, they're not gay, and someone else is. So what? I just don't understand how people who aren't "threatened" in any way care so much...

[The Tower]

i would have to agree with you to some extent, Towie. :nod: But the question is, what about people who are afraid and not secretly gay? what are they afraid of? just cause it "grosses them out?" big whoop.

I never said they were afraid because they were secretly gay. I think they're afraid because straight men have no "control" over gay men. And all the archetypal straight man wants is power- so fags are a threat. Also, I think their fear resonates from seeing a man who isn't afraid to show "weakness", which isn't really weakness at all, it's just insight.

The archetypal straight dude is just like an evangelical christian- they will never see reality, because they absolutely believe that they know the score. No matter how many times they are presented with the truth, they will always say, "No, the sky ain't blue- it's plaid."

At the risk of speaking for The Tower

Sugarbaby, y'all can speak for me anytime....... :xoxo:

[Sugar]

from what I gather, some men fear being made to feel womanish by being put in that submissive position they feel is reserved for women. I actually think that's a lot of it.

Others fear losing their preferred place in society. I think a lot of white Christians don't like the idea of sharing their place in society with anyone not white or Christian, so when they see any of those people gaining any sort of acceptance or *gasp* equality, they see those people as a threat...

That's just a couple of examples, Amber...

[amber]

I never said they were afraid because they were secretly gay. I think they're afraid because straight men have no "control" over gay men. And all the archetypal straight man wants is power- so fags are a threat. Also, I think their fear resonates from seeing a man who isn't afraid to show "weakness", which isn't really weakness at all, it's just insight.


Yes, sweetie, I know (read my post above) and this is a good, and clarifying point about straight men. I always noticed that these men also don't think anything is funny enough for them to laugh at unless THEY said it. Minor, but another control issue, to be sure.. :laugh:

[Sugar]

Sugarbaby, y'all can speak for me anytime....... :xoxo:


Awww shucks... :xoxo:

We seem to be of one mind on this anyway... :thumbsup:

[amber]

from what I gather, some men fear being made to feel womanish by being put in that submissive position they feel is reserved for women. I actually think that's a lot of it.

Others fear losing their preferred place in society. I think a lot of white Christians don't like the idea of sharing their place in society with anyone not white or Christian, so when they see any of those people gaining any sort of acceptance or *gasp* equality, they see those people as a threat...

That's just a couple of examples, Amber...
Yes, good points. I mean, really, we all like people to believe as we do, in a way, to some extent. But again, as i said before, that's not really what the bible is about, so they are remiss. Which is too bad. I like religious people who, you know, don't judge, and help their fellow man, and think that every thing was made in god's image (everything!) etc.. That is what religion is supposed to be about, no?

[Sugar]

So rarely is religion practiced so purely...

Communism looked good on paper too...

[amber]

So rarely is religion practiced so purely...

Communism looked good on paper too...
Yep. A damn shame, if ya ask me. But why don't these people who supposedly follow the bible so closely and all that, know? Why does the tiny part in the bible (written by a man, in, what, the dark ages? Then again with the ol' king james) that says homesexuality is wrong, supercede in their minds, love for all, everyone's made in god's image, etc? It's not logical, i tells ya! If only everyone were as smart as we are.. :laugh: :laugh: :p
Amber

[Nixxxed]

:laugh: Send me a plane ticket, dammit!

I could only hope to look so good in leather pants. ;)

It's official.

I love you.

And I swore I would never fall for a straight man over the computer...

(At least not again.)

[Nixxxed]

Yes, that one is good too. But, for free at home, i can walk, and do lots of kickbacks. kickbacks are my friend...also, just simple butt squeezes, 3 sets of fifty, and the good part about that is i'm doing kegels at the same time! TMI? Maybe.... :D

Kegels? Are those to strengthen the "Axis of Evil" muscles? (Quote from John Waters' latest movie "A Dirty Shame", which I still insist you see. ;) )

If so, guys can do the same thing with a stimulating mental picture and a bath towel. Raise towel up, lower towel, repeat. Who needs Viagra?

[amber]

It's official.

I love you.

And I swore I would never fall for a straight man over the computer...

(At least not again.)
I know this was for Diss, but..he's not online, so...
:laugh: :lol: :laugh: BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Nevermind all the people making good points about gay stuff...Gimme the man in the LEATHER PANTS!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
By the way, you know I don't have any gay guy friends? And I live in the Bay Area? Hmmmnnnn. :laugh: :p What're the odds? Though, of course, all my girlfriends are bi, and just waiting to sleep with me :lol: :lol:
Amber

[Nixxxed]

I thought Tower's catch 22 was dead on, by the way... :nod:

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Nixxxed]

Though, of course, all my girlfriends are bi, and just waiting to sleep with me :lol: :lol:
Amber

Then may I remind you what you said about men understanding men's plumbing better than women? I've had a few lesbian roommates, and I've never heard orgasmic screaming like the ones coming out of their bedrooms. :nod:

"All night long... (all night, all night) All night loooonnnnggg..."

Don't you hate when the spirit of Lionel Richie possesses you?

[amber]

Kegels? Are those to strengthen the "Axis of Evil" muscles? (Quote from John Waters' latest movie "A Dirty Shame", which I still insist you see. ;) )

If so, guys can do the same thing with a stimulating mental picture and a bath towel. Raise towel up, lower towel, repeat. Who needs Viagra?
Yep! And I learned boys had their own versions from when Woody Harrelson was on Will and Grace, talking to Karen. "I do my own version. I can lift an encyclopedia!" :laugh:
And, ok, ok, I will see A Dirty Shame!! If someone would just send me money, and do all my homework, I'd have sooooo much more time for all this necessary media consumption!!! :laugh: :laugh: by the way, did you know, that until yesterday, i thought you were a girl? I don't remember anything specific that made me think that, so don't take it the wrong way...it was probably your name and your avatar :shrug: but still, it's very vague....
Amber

[amber]

Then may I remind you what you said about men understanding men's plumbing better than women? I've had a few lesbian roommates, and I've never heard orgasmic screaming like the ones coming out of their bedrooms. :nod:

"All night long... (all night, all night) All night loooonnnnggg..."

Don't you hate when the spirit of Lionel Richie possesses you?
alll night, yeah, all night (yes, I hate that, but I will be your backup singer! :laugh: )
Yeah, I tried that...(those damn Scorpios! :D ) but I think I prefer to drive a stick, and I know that applies for sure to cars... :D I guess I haven't got the whole thing down perfectly, and some friends o' mine would (and do) say i need some more practice (again, damn Scorpios!) Let's just say, i'm already proficient with a stick... :cool:
Amber
ooooo, "Those Shoes" by the Eagles, just came on! i have to really listen to test my theory that it's about Stevie!

[amber]

alll night, yeah, all night (yes, I hate that, but I will be your backup singer! :laugh: )
Yeah, I tried that...(those damn Scorpios! :D ) but I think I prefer to drive a stick, and I know that applies for sure to cars... :D I guess I haven't got the whole thing down perfectly, and some friends o' mine would (and do) say i need some more practice (again, damn Scorpios!) Let's just say, i'm already proficient with a stick... :cool:
Amber
ooooo, "Those Shoes" by the Eagles, just came on! i have to really listen to test my theory that it's about Stevie!

[Nixxxed]

by the way, did you know, that until yesterday, i thought you were a girl? I don't remember anything specific that made me think that, so don't take it the wrong way...it was probably your name and your avatar :shrug: but still, it's very vague....
Amber

No offense taken. I'm not a girl physically. Mentally, that's probably a different story... I definitely watched a few too many Stevie Nicks videos in my formative adolescent years, and twirled around a few too many times with blankets thrown over my shoulders listening to "Bella Donna" (and I'm not ashamed to admit it). Hell, I even adopted a large white cockatoo.

So, as Carson on Queer Eye says, "I'm a pretty, pretty princess!!!" :woohoo:

And there's a pic posted in my profile -- I see no reason to hide behind this machine. So, decide for yourself!

[Johnny Stew]

It happens all the time once "straight" guys find out I'm gay or once I tell them. And I'm not incredibly good-looking or super suave or even asking for the attention. They seem to think all gay guys are up for it anytime, anywhere, with anyone, and that's simply not the case for every gay person.

Oh, crikey, I sure hope she doesn't read The Ledge, but I have a friend whose husband told me, "you know, if my marriage doesn't work out, I might be interested in....." :shocked: :laugh:

And this guy, from everything I've ever known or heard about him, is perfectly straight. Go figure.

But, yes, you're right... it's always assumed that a gay man is up for anything at anytime.
I guess it goes back to the idea that men always want sex, and if women were agreeable more often, then men would have sex as often as humanly possible. So it's therefore assumed that gay men must have an inexhaustible outlet for sex, because other gay men would never tell them no.

[amber]

No offense taken. I'm not a girl physically. Mentally, that's probably a different story... I definitely watched a few too many Stevie Nicks videos in my formative adolescent years, and twirled around a few too many times with blankets thrown over my shoulders listening to "Bella Donna" (and I'm not ashamed to admit it). Hell, I even adopted a large white cockatoo.

So, as Carson on Queer Eye says, "I'm a pretty, pretty princess!!!" :woohoo:

And there's a pic posted in my profile -- I see no reason to hide behind this machine. So, decide for yourself!
ok! But i have to wait, cause a triple shot from the mac just came on the radio, starting with The Chain! have i heard them a million times before? yes! Will I still sing it? YES..more later, after the bass solo.... :rolleyes:

[Johnny Stew]

I remember seeing a gay advocate talk YEARS AGO about how straight men react to gay men. He said, "They're afraid of us treating them like they've treated women for years," and I think there's a lot to this.

I think a lot of white Christian men still want to see themselves as the masters of the universe and guard that notion vehimently (It's the same reason I think Christians are so rabid; it's not about maintaining their lifestyle, but about their lifestyle's dominance, but that's another thread :lol: )

If women are the weaker sex, that the only real threat to a man is another man. And if that man is dominant, then guess who is "the woman". That sort of thing.

You're exactly right. As it was said elsewhere in this thread, it's a role-reversal than a lot of straight men just aren't comfortable with.

It's one thing for a group of construction workers to cat-call a woman walking by, but what if a group of gay men were cat-calling a construction worker who was walking by? They don't know how to deal with it when they're the sex-object. Unless the advances are desired... ie: those coming from women.

It's about machismo and control.

[amber]

Oh, crikey, I sure hope she doesn't read The Ledge, but I have a friend whose husband told me, "you know, if my marriage doesn't work out, I might be interested in....." :shocked: :laugh:

.
:eek: Omigosh! Well, it just goes along with my friend's, and to some extent, my theory, that everyone is really, to some extent, bi. *ooh, they're playing IDWTK! I love that harmony!* anyways, sorry, distracted by the mac!
but i think it's beautiful, that way everyone can be free to love exactly who they get along with best, and are attracted to, most :shrug: right? I mean, it just makes sense to me. Although, to admit, i'd really want to know if my BF was bi....and actually, i'm not sure to what extent i would handle that! how weird! What do y'all think about that?
Amber "I mostly like boys" g. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Right, he didn't say anything about that, but i've gathered that some of the prejudice and violence and hate came from people who were secretly gay and didn't want to be.

I was harrassed by a lot of people in high school, but there was one guy in particular, who was exceptionally cruel.
This guy would go out of his way to say something nasty about me or to me, or to do something to me.

Meanwhile, he and his best friend were inseparable. In social situations, you never saw one without the other. They rode to school together, they spent all their time together, even often stayed at each other's houses.

Well, about three years after I graduated, I heard that the best friend came out of the closet. So, after I heard that, it made me wonder if perhaps there was a little something going on there, and the one who harrassed me was overcompensating for his own insecurities, guilt, etc.

I actually started to feel bad for the guy, and what a damn shame it was that he felt his only outlet was to lash out. Makes you think.

[Johnny Stew]

And I swore I would never fall for a straight man over the computer...

(At least not again.)

You, too? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm attracted to masculinity.
Mind you, I'm not attracted to machismo... just simple, unaffected manliness.
So I've had crushes on a few straight guys in my time.

As Annie Lennox says:
"Baby, baby, baby, don't you shave your legs. Don't you double-comb your hair. Don't powder puff, just leave it rough. I like your fingers bare.
I NEED A MAN!"

:laugh:

By the way, I just saw the pic in your profile.
Uhm... I'm not a shallow man, but... is there any way I can get you to drop your pursuit of dissention, to chase me instead? :laugh: ;)

[amber]

I was harrassed by a lot of people in high school, but there was one guy in particular, who was exceptionally cruel.
This guy would go out of his way to say something nasty about me or to me, or to do something to me.

Meanwhile, he and his best friend were inseparable. In social situations, you never saw one without the other. They rode to school together, they spent all their time together, even often stayed at each other's houses.

Well, about three years after I graduated, I heard that the best friend came out of the closet. So, after I heard that, it made me wonder if perhaps there was a little something going on there, and the one who harrassed me was overcompensating for his own insecurities, guilt, etc.

I actually started to feel bad for the guy, and what a damn shame it was that he felt his only outlet was to lash out. Makes you think.
This is such a beautiful story to me....but I don't want anyone to ever feel afraid, or embarrassed, or get picked on, is my thing...I always had best friends like that, and actually it made my mom ask me my senior year "Are you a lesbian? :laugh: " And then some lame (laaaame) guy in my computer class my junior year called me a dyke, cause i didn't want him to help me with my computer stuff... :laugh: Turns out i wasn't, though sometimes i think it would make my life easier. But yeah, I would feel sorry for that guy, in retrospect, too. but that's the whole point, is that our society (so far) kind of makes people ashamed of what they really are, so they'll lash out..to me, it's a great tragedy, no matter who you are (unless, of course, you're a pedophile, or an animal abuser, or something, which is what people should REALLY be getting mad about, and watchdogging over) :distress:
Good story, JS :xoxo:
Amber

[amber]

You, too? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm attracted to masculinity.;)
me, too....




By the way, I just saw the pic in your profile.
Uhm... I'm not a shallow man, but... is there any way I can get you to drop your pursuit of dissention, to chase me instead? :laugh: ;)
ooo, i have to go look, now...

[Johnny Stew]

Although, to admit, i'd really want to know if my BF was bi....and actually, i'm not sure to what extent i would handle that! how weird! What do y'all think about that?

Actually, I think it's pretty important for a woman to know if her boyfriend or husband is bisexual, because the vast majority of men who consider themselves bisexual, eventually end up exclusively in gay relationships. :nod:

[Nixxxed]

By the way, I just saw the pic in your profile.
Uhm... I'm not a shallow man, but... is there any way I can get you to drop your pursuit of dissention, to chase me instead? :laugh: ;)

Anyone who quotes my favorite Annie Lennox/Eurythmics song to me gets automatically bumped to the top of the queue! :xoxo:

How do you look in leather pants? ;)

[amber]

Actually, I think it's pretty important for a woman to know if her boyfriend or husband is bisexual, because the vast majority of men who consider themselves bisexual, eventually end up exclusively in gay relationships. :nod:
I agree. But i just wanna say, I just saw Nixxxed, and he is cute! and he kinda looks like you!
Also, my first boyfriend, who i'm still friends with (and who's a cancer, too) is really cool - he told me he once messed around with his best friend cause his friend wanted to, and of course he loved his friend (I swear Cancers are easily sexually suggestible! :laugh: ) but anyways...he is basically straight! but for the most part i think you're right, although of course i have heard of men (and women, more) who are really bi...The big personal add here is..."wanted...hot asian girl for marin couple...well to do, live in Marin" :rolleyes: shoot! no one ever asks for hot italian girl... :laugh: :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

Anyone who quotes my favorite Annie Lennox/Eurythmics song to me gets automatically bumped to the top of the queue! :xoxo:

Woo-Hoo! ;) :laugh:

How do you look in leather pants? ;)

Oh, crikey, I wouldn't know. :o
I'm a total jeans and a t-shirt kinda guy.

[Johnny Stew]

I agree. But i just wanna say, I just saw Nixxxed, and he is cute! and he kinda looks like you!

You think we look similar?? I don't see it.
And if I were Nixxxed, I'd be offended by being compared to me! :laugh:
(We finally got a blushing icon here, and now I realize I need a dork icon too!)

Also, my first boyfriend, who i'm still friends with (and who's a cancer, too) is really cool - he told me he once messed around with his best friend cause his friend wanted to, and of course he loved his friend (I swear Cancers are easily sexually suggestible! :laugh: ) but anyways...he is basically straight!

Well, they always say that two straight guys, left to their own devices, are just a six-pack away from a gay experience! :laugh: ;)

[amber]

You think we look similar?? I didn't see it.
And if I were Nixxxed, I'd be offended by being compared to me! :laugh:
(We finally got a blushing icon here, and now I realize I need a dork icon too!)



Well, they always say that two straight guys, left to their own devices, are just a six-pack away from a gay experience! :laugh: ;)
:laugh: :lol: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! And that goes along with my previously stated theory, that no man can refuse an expert beej. :laugh:
well, his face shape is a bit different, but it seems the general theme is the same.
Oh, and i think my friend's best friend was actually gay, and that my bf was actually straight...but, you know, best friends... :rolleyes:
Amber