Tusk Survivor - FINAL ROUND

[sodascouts]

Results for Round 18


Beautiful Child – 27
I Know I’m Not Wrong - 16


With 27 votes, “Beautiful Child” is the eighteenth song eliminated from “Tusk” survivor. “Beautiful Child,” please leave the tribal council area immediately. The rest of you may return to the camp.

Breakdown of Votes (to ensure greater accuracy):
Beautiful Child – dissention
Beautiful Child – rezamatic
Beautiful Child – sodascouts
Beautiful Child – heyjupiter678
Beautiful Child - Merf
Beautiful Child – Hawkeye
Beautiful Child – ontheEdgeof17
Beautiful Child – dreamongypsydkm
Beautiful Child – jbrownsjr
Beautiful Child – thepoetinmyhear
Beautiful Child – secondhandchain
Beautiful Child – tynan88
Beautiful Child – Mari
Beautiful Child – HomerMcVie
Beautiful Child – Sugar
Beautiful Child – shackin’ up
Beautiful Child – trackaghost
Beautiful Child – Vianna
Beautiful Child – Patti
Beautiful Child – face of glass
Beautiful Child – stefan
Beautiful Child – mondaymornin1
Beautiful Child – ryan8472
Beautiful Child – amber
Beautiful Child – Lux
Beautiful Child – marc402
Beautiful Child - Serrart

I Know I’m Not Wrong – Deadliest Poison
I Know I’m Not Wrong – saradorna
I Know I’m Not Wrong – gypsyrhiannon
I Know I’m Not Wrong – jwd
I Know I’m Not Wrong – EnchantedSLN
I Know I’m Not Wrong – GypsySorcerer
I Know I’m Not Wrong – strandinthewind
I Know I’m Not Wrong – golden braid
I Know I’m Not Wrong – Moony
I Know I’m Not Wrong - TheBlueLamp
I Know I’m Not Wrong – Kelly
I Know I’m Not Wrong – Hippocamus
I Know I’m Not Wrong – chiffon head
I Know I’m Not Wrong – The Tower
I Know I’m Not Wrong – AliceLover
I Know I'm Not Wrong - teedee

----------------


The songs in play:

Storms
I Know I'm Not Wrong

Voted off:
Honey Hi 8/31/04
That's All for Everyone 9/1/04
Never Forget 9/2/04
Not That Funny - 9/3/04
Brown Eyes - 9/4/04
Never Make Me Cry – 9/5/04
Walk a Thin Line – 9/6/04
Save Me a Place – 9/7/04
Over and Over – 9/8/04
What Makes You Think You’re the One - 9/9/04
That’s Enough for Me - 9/10/04
Sisters of the Moon - 9/11/04
Sara - 9/12/04
The Ledge 9/13/04
Think About Me – 9/14/04
Tusk – 9/15/04
Angel – 9/16/04
Beautiful Child – 9/17/04

Remember, this is the last round, so you vote FOR the song you WANT TO WIN, either "Storms" or "I Know I'm Not Wrong." Put “Final round” and then THE SONG YOU WANT TO WIN in the subject line.

BEGIN FINAL ROUND!

[DeadliestPoison]

*shrug*

typetypetype

[strandinthewind]

Better lyrics, better cadance, better emotion - just better all around!

AND - I LOVE IKINW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - I would have voted for SMAP and, perhaps, Tusk before voting for Storms - but survivor does not work that way - so . . . .

[xdreamsunwindx]

....

-Kate

[dissention]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[strandinthewind]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Against what you once termed something like "the most beautiful thing Stevie ever wrote" - I smell blind LB following here :rolleyes:

[EnchantedSLN]

I only voted to eliminate it last round 'cause it was up against BC instead of Storms :cool:.

[dissention]

Against what you once termed something like "the most beautiful thing Stevie ever wrote" - I smell blind LB following here :rolleyes:

Yup, I think he deserves to win. Shoot me. :laugh:

[dreamongypsydkm]

.......................

[strandinthewind]

Yup, I think he deserves to win. Shoot me. :laugh:

So you admit Storms is superior and you are voting to allow LB to win, even though the acutal song, though great, is inferior :laugh: Hey - its your vote!!!!!!!

[heyjupiter678]

I'm voting for Storms, but I'll be happy with either one winning. They're both really great songs.

[Patti]

This is tough, because I love Storms. This is not my favorite Lindsey song on the album, but I want Lindsey to win, so IKINW it is.

[dissention]

So you admit Storms is superior and you are voting to allow LB to win, even though the acutal song, though great, is inferior :laugh: Hey - its your vote!!!!!!!

I don't think the song is inferior to Storms, I think they're about equal. Storms is going to win, so it really doesn't matter what I vote for, after all. ;)

Both songs have aspects that I love. Though I do love SMAP better than both.

[Hawkeye]

Hmmmm I voted in favor against IKIMW against BC, my favorite song on the CD. And I like IKINW better then Storms, yet now I'm voting for Storms to win. I'm messed up :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

. . .
Both songs have aspects that I love. Though I do love SMAP better than both.


ON THAT WE AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :nod: :nod:

[shackin'up]

because i've always been a storm.

[strandinthewind]

because i've always been a storm.

you mean an "orage" or "tempête"

:cool: :laugh:

[dreamongypsydkm]

............................


Excellent point, Lux.

.............., indeed.

[ryan8472]

To win it. Sorry, Storms.

[teedee]

final round STORMS to win...

[teedee]

hi soda,
not that my one vote would of saved BC , but is there any reason why my vote was not counted in round 18, i thought the deadline was 9:00 , if so i voted at 8:58.

[The Tower]

Oh, yeah.....

[Merf]

I Know I'm Not Wrong to win :thumbsup:

[Wldhrt315]

Glad these 2 songs made it to the final. I have to go with Storms though. It just has a more personal connection.

[77Rumours77]

Storms must win Mother ****ers :rolleyes: :cool: :blob2:

[sodascouts]

hi soda,
not that my one vote would of saved BC , but is there any reason why my vote was not counted in round 18, i thought the deadline was 9:00 , if so i voted at 8:58.

My apologies, teedee. I prepared my post at 8:55, assuming anyone who wanted to vote had already done so. I will add your vote into the tally.

[sodascouts]

My personal preference. :)

[gypsyrhiannon]

MY personal preference. Sorry again Nancy :) It is a hard choice.

[strandinthewind]

I just do not know how people can say the following:

Every night that goes between
I feel a little less
As you slowly go away from me
This is only another test

Every night you do not come
Your softness fades away
Did I ever really care that much
Is there anything left to say

Every hour of fear I spend
My body tries to cry
Living through each empty night
A deadly call inside

I haven't felt this way I feel
Since many a year ago
But in those years and the lifetimes past
I did not deal with the road

And I did not deal with you I know
Tho the love has always been
So I search to find an answer there
So I can truly win

So I try to say
Goodbye my friend
I'd like to leave you with something warm
But never have I been a blue calm sea
I have always been a storm

We were frail
She said
"Everynight he will break your heart"
I should have known from the first
I'd be the broken hearted
But I loved you from the start
Save us. . .
And not all the prayers in the world--
could save us
__________________________________________________

which is beautifully orchestrated and sung in THAT voice (earnest, pleading, frail, strong, and so on

IS NOT HEADS AND SHOULDERS ABOVE:

Her lips were waitin'
Her eyes looked sad
The dreams of a lifetime
A year gone bad
The dreams of a lifetime
Told me wrong
Everything is all right
And now it's gone
Don't blame me
Please be strong I know I'm not wrong

Here comes the nightime
Lookin' for a little more
Waitin' on the right time
Somebody outside the door
Don't blame me
Please be strong I know I'm not wrong.

which is good and has a clever hook and use of horns - but in no way comparable to Storms from a musical or lyrical point of view.

[HejiraNYC]

No comparison. Blows IKINW away.

[AliceLover]

This is such a better song. IKINW is like a poppier version of eyes of the world.

IMO opinion it sucks!

Jimmy

[Merf]

This is such a better song. IKINW is like a poppier version of eyes of the world.

IMO opinion it sucks!

Jimmy

GASP! :shocked:

[EnchantedSLN]

IMO opinion it sucks!

Jimmy

But your favorite Stevie song is ALICE! :laugh: :xoxo:

[diamondsnake]

I'll admit- out of a masterpiece like Tusk these two songs are pretty crappy. Storms is too depressing and IKINW is so much better live. I think there are a lot stronger songs that should have been in the final round.

[diamondsnake]

Exactly- if IKINW wins there is no justice! A silly little song like that pales compared to a song like Storms which is a heavy important song. IKINW is fluff- good fluff, a nice fun song- but does not deserve to win out of all the songs on Tusk!

[Hawkeye]

IKINW is NOT fluff in any way shape or form. I think it is quite complex and is a freaking masterpiece. It is great live but is just as good in the studio and comparing IKINW to EOTW is a joke. EOTW can't compare to IKINW.

[strandinthewind]

I'll admit- out of a masterpiece like Tusk these two songs are pretty crappy. Storms is too depressing and IKINW is so much better live. I think there are a lot stronger songs that should have been in the final round.

Like SARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :laugh:

[diamondsnake]

Like SARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :laugh:
Exactly! ! !

[diamondsnake]

IKINW is NOT fluff in any way shape or form. I think it is quite complex and is a freaking masterpiece. It is great live but is just as good in the studio and comparing IKINW to EOTW is a joke. EOTW can't compare to IKINW.
What's so complex about it?

[Vianna]

But never have I been a blue calm sea...

[golden braid]

Pretty please with sugar on top let Storms win.

[thepoetinmyhear]

I don't think the song is inferior to Storms, I think they're about equal. Storms is going to win, so it really doesn't matter what I vote for, after all. ;) .

So, round after round of waiting, I sure hope your grand master evil scheme isn't just some odd reverse psychologyesque statement about how 100% sure IKINW is going to lose (an invitation to others to prove you wrong). All this would result in is a win/win situation for you (that was brilliant Diss). If we prove you wrong, IKINW wins and thus you are somewhat happy. If it loses, you were right and are somewhat happy. You dastardly foe! ;)

Michael

[saradorna]

.................

Isabel

[GypsySorcerer]

Storms.............

[LindseysCowgirl]

Storms is the bomb. I'm a sucker for deceptive cadences and the lyrics are beautiful.

[rezamatic]

My 2nd favorite F-Mac song of all time, I believe. I'm totally elated that it made it to the end.

[tynan88]

I am glad it came down to two great songs, but it's gotta be storms.

Tynan

[Nightbird_Brett]

My vote goes to Storms!!!

[estranged4life]

Since I did not vote what-so-ever in any of the "Survivor Tusk" rounds I will finally cast a vote for my favorite FM song "Storms"...

Brian "The Show Must Go On" j.

[stefan]

Not that it matters but for the record

[Mari]

yawn.
....

[Hippocampus]

And not all the prayers in the world could save us...

[strandinthewind]

Since I did not vote what-so-ever in any of the "Survivor Tusk" rounds I will finally cast a vote for my favorite FM song "Storms"...

Brian "The Show Must Go On" j.

Brian - you have to put your vote in the title line for it to count - :cool:

[TheBlueLamp]

.................

[ShamHy89]

This song embodies Tusk in my opinion, and while Storms is gorgeous, I feel IKINW deserves the win in this particular "Survivor" game.

Shamus

[Kelly]

Since it was pointed out in the last round that this is not Tusk LIVE Survivor, I will not take into account how much MORE I love IKINW, since seeing it live. I have always really dug it, but lately I have been listening to it all the time.(especially live boots) Going "strictly" by the album versions, I have to go with Storms. The lyrics are so much more compelling and her vocals are chilling. I am happy with either of them winning, they are both extremely worthy.

[Serrart]

It's such a musically compelling, inspired and poetic way, to describe one of those nights that I think most of us have to cope with once in a while.

I hope there will be the chance to hear it played live, sooner or later. :nod:

Romy

[Gazza]

I probably prefer Storms to IKINW (I think What Makes You Think... being followed by Storms is every bit as moving as GYOW being followed by Songbird), but this is for The Ledge, What Makes You Think, Save Me A Place etc... Lindsey deserves a song winner.

[dissention]

It's such a musically compelling, inspired and poetic way, to describe one of those nights that I think most of us have to cope with once in a while.

I agree that it's inspired and poetic, but musically compelling? Heck no. The music itself wanders aimlessly. I think the music on the album version PALES in comparison to the unmastered version with the tambo and percussion. That one is amazing.

[jwd]

Storms to WIN! *Bows to Ms. Nicks*.

It's fitting that IKINW will be runner up. ;) And if only "Brown Eyes" would have finished in the final three, I would have been a completely happy TUSK Survivor camper. :p

[Sugar]

Storms is good, but I think what's being conveyed in IKINW is more complex and interesting. IMO IKINW is more dramatic and compelling. :D

[ontheEdgeof17]

For the five square win and the game!

[Serrart]

I agree that it's inspired and poetic, but musically compelling? Heck no. The music itself wanders aimlessly. I think the music on the album version PALES in comparison to the unmastered version with the tambo and percussion. That one is amazing.

For me Storms is one of the cases in which less is better. The lyrics and vocals are so powerful, that the music has to be like a soft glove to keep the right balance.

Romy

[marc402]

I like storms but i like i know i'm not wrong more ;)

[HomerMcvie]

...........................

[shackin'up]

I probably prefer Storms to IKINW (I think What Makes You Think... being followed by Storms is every bit as moving as GYOW being followed by Songbird), but this is for The Ledge, What Makes You Think, Save Me A Place etc... Lindsey deserves a song winner.


:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

[shackin'up]

Against what you once termed something like "the most beautiful thing Stevie ever wrote" - I smell blind LB following here :rolleyes:

So do I. Me too thinks Storms is the most beautiful thing the woman ever wrote.............BUT...... :D

[amber]

food for thought...mmmmmm, food *drool*.
If none of you had voted, they both coulda won, then you'd all experience the pleasure that's in my head, of TWO TUSK WINNERS!! :wavey:
So I say, Congratulations to IKINW and Storms - you made it, guys!!! You both win a million dollars!!!! :nod: I love you both.. :p
AMber

[face of glass]

I just do not know how people can say the following:

Every night that goes between
Yadda yadda
which is beautifully orchestrated and sung in THAT voice (earnest, pleading, frail, strong, and so on

IS NOT HEADS AND SHOULDERS ABOVE:

Her lips were waitin'
Yadda yadda
This comparison between the two is very inappropriate in my eyes. As is the whole comparison of Lindsey Buckingham's musical paradigm to that of Stevie Nicks'. They communicate different things to us, they expose different sides (yet, in the end it's all the same) of themselves to us and that's because they wouldn't know how to do anything else. They are limited in what they do, after all, just like we are limited in that we can't always grasp what they're after in everything that they do. Or at least I can't, who knows, maybe there's someone here who likes everything either of them have done equally.

Sure, write the lyrics down and there's no argument over who appears to be more poetic and deep on the surface. I have always argued that Lindsey Buckingham's work should not be analyzed in a solely lyrical context and I will do that here too. My belief is that to understand what he is trying to do requires focusing on the arrangement itself, which means that one should not just listen to the composition, one should listen to the way he phrases what he lets out of his mouth and of course how he creates the musical network of emotions coming straight at us. Listen to the way he sings it also (or uses the VSO), he sure isn't as expressive a vocalist as Stevie but he definitely considers the way he uses his vocal chords carefully.

Now about the claim that "Storms" is more complex than "IKINW". How can one actually prove something like that? Where is the musicological analysis? You'd need one to get me convinced. Surely any piece of classical music kicks "Storms" in the rear end in complexity. When analysing rock and pop music, one should never look at the composition itself. You need to look at the rhythmical side, phrasing, syncopation, stuff like that that notation can never described accurately. You need to look at the various tone colours used because those have been used to convey a lot of emotions too, ever since someone realized that you could actually enhance instruments through electricity. And since musicologists throughout the world struggle with inventing proper terms to describe those things, it is impossible to compare the complexity of one piece of rock music to another. Or of course you can do it, but then that wouldn't be reflective of anything else than what you are like as a human being and what kind of things speak to you more than others.

Also Jason, I had to roll my eyes to this:
...better emotion...
I mean, what the hell? Since when has this become a sports competition where you start comparing different emotions to each other? This clearly speaks of you more than it speaks of anything else. If you do not identify with the uplift of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" as much as you identify with the frailness of "Storms", then most of what I'm going to write next will probably mean nothing to you.
You find all those "earnest, pleading, frail, strong" qualities [and more] in Stevie's vocal delivery, I find those in Lindsey's arrangements.
What's so complex about it?
This is my impression of "I Know I'm Not Wrong", my idea of what ultimately makes it a complex piece of music under its superficial simplicity.
My belief is that "I Know I'm Not Wrong" is a statement of naivety, of childlike outlook to life. It gets conveyed in the vocal delivery, with that beautifully whiny "don't blame me, please be strong" refrain. There is none of the masculine swagger that its counterpoint "Not That Funny" has, instead there is something that exposes us to another side of his psyche.
Does he expose it through the lyrics only? No. He shows it to us in the way he has arranged the thing. I said in the BuckinghamNicks.net chatroom today that it is the equivalent of someone running on the grass naked. I meant every word. There is a huge sense of relief as "IKINW" closes the side three of Tusk; all the anguish that one may have felt before is let go of and I, for one, feel liberated.
Musically "I Know I'm Not Wrong" is the 1979 impression of street musicians, those who go and play to people with nothing more than an acoustic guitar, a harmonica and a bunch of shoeboxes as percussion. It is the modern interpretation of traditional three chord folk music, a homage to the times when people had fun on the streets using whatever they could lay their hands on as instruments. That's how rock and roll basically started out as in its early forms, and that's what the whole punk/new wave thing that Lindsey was influenced by was trying to get back to.
The ideological message of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" for me is to kick out all that serious artistry of the rest of the '70s at a point when rock and roll had supposedly evolved into a more sophisticated, serious form of music. It's about the rediscovery of the values that started the fascination into the genre in the first place; all that '50s primitivism and simplicity BUT not without the knowledge and the experience that Lindsey had gathered to himself at that point.
Does one need to interpret it the way I do in order to get it? No. I believe other people in this thread who have chosen "IKINW" as their winner of the survivor have their own stories to tell.
Finally Christopher, I do know that you hate it when people imply that you're so young and therefore fail to get Lindsey because "he's so artistic and all". I did not wish to say anything like that here. My experiences are different from yours, my experiences have made Lindsey Buckingham's music resonate in me in a way that they do not resonate in yours. We all will change over time, true, but we can never identify with every musical piece on the planet. One thing I'd like to tell you though: do not solely focus on Fleetwood Mac. Even if you took every person of every line-up in FM into account, they're still limited in conveying all sides of human emotions. They make the best they can out of those limitations, but even then they can't give us everything. Yeah, yeah, one preachy bastard I am. :p
(I think What Makes You Think... being followed by Storms is every bit as moving as GYOW being followed by Songbird)
I agree here, although I find the combination of "Brown Eyes", "Never Make Me Cry" and "I Know I'm Not Wrong" the most moving combination of tracks to be found on a Fleetwood Mac album. First we have the seducing erotic call, then follows the alienation of the morning after and then there's the big relief as Lindsey closes "IKINW" with that guitar solo, a solo that has none of the usual anguish that his solos often have.

[face of glass]

The lyrics and vocals are so powerful, that the music has to be like a soft glove to keep the right balance.
I'd actually go as far as to say that the music is as much fragile as the delivery is, that it eventually ends up making the delivery all the more heartbreaking. That's another case of Stevie Nicks being more extreme with Fleetwood Mac than she is with her solo career.

[amber]

This comparison between the two is very inappropriate in my eyes. As is the whole comparison of Lindsey Buckingham's musical paradigm to that of Stevie Nicks'. They communicate different things to us, they expose different sides (yet, in the end it's all the same) of themselves to us and that's because they wouldn't know how to do anything else. They are limited in what they do, after all, just like we are limited in that we can't always grasp what they're after in everything that they do. Or at least I can't, who knows, maybe there's someone here who likes everything either of them have done equally.

Sure, write the lyrics down and there's no argument over who appears to be more poetic and deep on the surface. I have always argued that Lindsey Buckingham's work should not be analyzed in a solely lyrical context and I will do that here too. My belief is that to understand what he is trying to do requires focusing on the arrangement itself, which means that one should not just listen to the composition, one should listen to the way he phrases what he lets out of his mouth and of course how he creates the musical network of emotions coming straight at us. Listen to the way he sings it also (or uses the VSO), he sure isn't as expressive a vocalist as Stevie but he definitely considers the way he uses his vocal chords carefully.

Now about the claim that "Storms" is more complex than "IKINW". How can one actually prove something like that? Where is the musicological analysis? You'd need one to get me convinced. Surely any piece of classical music kicks "Storms" in the rear end in complexity. When analysing rock and pop music, one should never look at the composition itself. You need to look at the rhythmical side, phrasing, syncopation, stuff like that that notation can never described accurately. You need to look at the various tone colours used because those have been used to convey a lot of emotions too, ever since someone realized that you could actually enhance instruments through electricity. And since musicologists throughout the world struggle with inventing proper terms to describe those things, it is impossible to compare the complexity of one piece of rock music to another. Or of course you can do it, but then that wouldn't be reflective of anything else than what you are like as a human being and what kind of things speak to you more than others.

Also Jason, I had to roll my eyes to this:

I mean, what the hell? Since when has this become a sports competition where you start comparing different emotions to each other? This clearly speaks of you more than it speaks of anything else. If you do not identify with the uplift of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" as much as you identify with the frailness of "Storms", then most of what I'm going to write next will probably mean nothing to you.
You find all those "earnest, pleading, frail, strong" qualities [and more] in Stevie's vocal delivery, I find those in Lindsey's arrangements.

This is my impression of "I Know I'm Not Wrong", my idea of what ultimately makes it a complex piece of music under its superficial simplicity.
My belief is that "I Know I'm Not Wrong" is a statement of naivety, of childlike outlook to life. It gets conveyed in the vocal delivery, with that beautifully whiny "don't blame me, please be strong" refrain. There is none of the masculine swagger that its counterpoint "Not That Funny" has, instead there is something that exposes us to another side of his psyche.
Does he expose it through the lyrics only? No. He shows it to us in the way he has arranged the thing. I said in the BuckinghamNicks.net chatroom today that it is the equivalent of someone running on the grass naked. I meant every word. There is a huge sense of relief as "IKINW" closes the side three of Tusk; all the anguish that one may have felt before is let go of and I, for one, feel liberated.
Musically "I Know I'm Not Wrong" is the 1979 impression of street musicians, those who go and play to people with nothing more than an acoustic guitar, a harmonica and a bunch of shoeboxes as percussion. It is the modern interpretation of traditional three chord folk music, a homage to the times when people had fun on the streets using whatever they could lay their hands on as instruments. That's how rock and roll basically started out as in its early forms, and that's what the whole punk/new wave thing that Lindsey was influenced by was trying to get back to.
The ideological message of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" for me is to kick out all that serious artistry of the rest of the '70s at a point when rock and roll had supposedly evolved into a more sophisticated, serious form of music. It's about the rediscovery of the values that started the fascination into the genre in the first place; all that '50s primitivism and simplicity BUT not without the knowledge and the experience that Lindsey had gathered to himself at that point.
Does one need to interpret it the way I do in order to get it? No. I believe other people in this thread who have chosen "IKINW" as their winner of the survivor have their own stories to tell.
Finally Christopher, I do know that you hate it when people imply that you're so young and therefore fail to get Lindsey because "he's so artistic and all". I did not wish to say anything like that here. My experiences are different from yours, my experiences have made Lindsey Buckingham's music resonate in me in a way that they do not resonate in yours. We all will change over time, true, but we can never identify with every musical piece on the planet. One thing I'd like to tell you though: do not solely focus on Fleetwood Mac. Even if you took every person of every line-up in FM into account, they're still limited in conveying all sides of human emotions. They make the best they can out of those limitations, but even then they can't give us everything. Yeah, yeah, one preachy bastard I am. :p

I agree here, although I find the combination of "Brown Eyes", "Never Make Me Cry" and "I Know I'm Not Wrong" the most moving combination of tracks to be found on a Fleetwood Mac album. First we have the seducing erotic call, then follows the alienation of the morning after and then there's the big relief as Lindsey closes "IKINW" with that guitar solo, a solo that has none of the usual anguish that his solos often have.

Gaius, do you think you could talk a little more about this? I'm not sure I understand your point, And your analysis was a little incomplete. :lol: :lol:
AMber

[face of glass]

Gaius, do you think you could talk a little more about this? I'm not sure I understand your point, And your analysis was a little incomplete. :lol: :lol:
AMber
Nah. It's about the sperrit, not about the intellectual ruination of other people's fun. :p
If you see me running across the grass naked in Oakland one day, then maybe you'll understand my point. ;)

[amber]

Nah. It's about the sperrit, not about the intellectual ruination of other people's fun. :p
If you see me running across the grass naked in Oakland one day, then maybe you'll understand my point. ;)
:laugh: :laugh: But you knew I was joking, right? Because your thread was so long, and it explained your point really well, and you went on and on with the (good) analysis?
Soooooooo....you coming to Oakland soon? ;)
AMber

[face of glass]

Soooooooo....you coming to Oakland soon? ;)
:xoxo: IF Lindsey tours solo. ;)

[amber]

:xoxo: IF Lindsey tours solo. ;)
Then can we (I) look forward to you running across in front of the stage naked? :laugh: :laugh:
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

Then can we (I) look forward to you running across in front of the stage naked? :laugh: :laugh:

Well, it sure does make you wonder if everything about Gaius is as long as his posts! :laugh:

I cannot believe I said that outloud. :shocked: :o :laugh:

[secondhandchain]

I love both, but I love IKINW more.

[TISL]

Storms to win

[Belladreamer]

I love this song!

[ontheEdgeof17]

Well, it sure does make you wonder if everything about Gaius is as long as his posts! :laugh:

I cannot believe I said that outloud. :shocked: :o :laugh:



Wow. That was a trashy post if I do say so myself. :distress:

[JohnL]

by a long shot :blob1:

[strandinthewind]

This comparison between the two is very inappropriate in my eyes. As is the whole comparison of Lindsey Buckingham's musical paradigm to that of Stevie Nicks'. They communicate different things to us, they expose different sides (yet, in the end it's all the same) of themselves to us and that's because they wouldn't know how to do anything else. They are limited in what they do, after all, just like we are limited in that we can't always grasp what they're after in everything that they do. Or at least I can't, who knows, maybe there's someone here who likes everything either of them have done equally.

Sure, write the lyrics down and there's no argument over who appears to be more poetic and deep on the surface. I have always argued that Lindsey Buckingham's work should not be analyzed in a solely lyrical context and I will do that here too. My belief is that to understand what he is trying to do requires focusing on the arrangement itself, which means that one should not just listen to the composition, one should listen to the way he phrases what he lets out of his mouth and of course how he creates the musical network of emotions coming straight at us. Listen to the way he sings it also (or uses the VSO), he sure isn't as expressive a vocalist as Stevie but he definitely considers the way he uses his vocal chords carefully.

Now about the claim that "Storms" is more complex than "IKINW". How can one actually prove something like that? Where is the musicological analysis? You'd need one to get me convinced. Surely any piece of classical music kicks "Storms" in the rear end in complexity. When analysing rock and pop music, one should never look at the composition itself. You need to look at the rhythmical side, phrasing, syncopation, stuff like that that notation can never described accurately. You need to look at the various tone colours used because those have been used to convey a lot of emotions too, ever since someone realized that you could actually enhance instruments through electricity. And since musicologists throughout the world struggle with inventing proper terms to describe those things, it is impossible to compare the complexity of one piece of rock music to another. Or of course you can do it, but then that wouldn't be reflective of anything else than what you are like as a human being and what kind of things speak to you more than others.

Also Jason, I had to roll my eyes to this:

I mean, what the hell? Since when has this become a sports competition where you start comparing different emotions to each other? This clearly speaks of you more than it speaks of anything else. If you do not identify with the uplift of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" as much as you identify with the frailness of "Storms", then most of what I'm going to write next will probably mean nothing to you.
You find all those "earnest, pleading, frail, strong" qualities [and more] in Stevie's vocal delivery, I find those in Lindsey's arrangements.


Whatever :rolleyes: all you want - you will anyway because to quote you, you are hard headed :laugh:

This whole thing is about comparison. I thought you knew that because you participated and you did just that in your meandering post, in case you did not notice :wavey: I mean if you did not want to compare them or disagreed with the comparison concept, you should not have played on that principle :shrug: But, you did - so I think you should not get on your high horse when others do and their comparison and opinion differs from you to the point where you apparently are shocked or appalled into rolling your eyes :shrug: :laugh:

As for Storms being more complex, the layered vocals, the vocal structure itself, the lyrics themselves, the somewhat syncopated style, the soft drumming, LB's (apparently) beautiful arangement, the vocal (all 12 or so layers of them), her complex harmony structure (which I cannot imagine how long it took her to come with that yet people who never sang harmony in thier lives think it just happens :shrug: ), and the lack of the collegiate band horn section repeating the same hook over and over again all go a long way in expressing yearning, frailty, passion, wanting, and any other purient emotion Storms CLEARLY conveys and all of which make it more complex than IKINW, which I love BTW.

But - I know not everyone gets or agrees with that. That does not mean I do not. YOu know all of this reminds me of Carne's whole "I can say objectively this song is better than that and its not a subjective opinion" argument about a year and a half ago :laugh: Can something on its face objectively be muscially moew complex and even better :shrug: I say yes, and Storms is. So sue me :wavey:

[msLinds]

Hello To Everyone,I have come out of Lurking just to vote in this final Round. I vote for" I know I'm not Wrong" To WIN.

Everyone take good care of yourselves.


Chain Keep US Together.

Its important to remember that nobody
falls into a simple set of labels.


:wavey: :nod: :lol: :blob1: :] :xoxo: :thumbsup:

[amber]

Well, it sure does make you wonder if everything about Gaius is as long as his posts! :laugh:

I cannot believe I said that outloud. :shocked: :o :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: It was good. It was all good.
AMber

[shackin'up]

I say yes, and Storms is. So sue me :wavey:

see you in court. :woohoo:

[Johnny Stew]

Wow. That was a trashy post if I do say so myself. :distress:

Ouch. Do you really think so? :(
Of course, I guess you would have added a smilie or a winkie if you didn’t really think so.

My bad. :o

Hopefully Gaius took it in the tongue-in-cheek manner in which it was meant... with the discussion of long posts and running naked and all. :o

And, well, I could have meant his legs! Yeah, that's it. :)

[amber]

Ouch. Do you really think so? :(
Of course, I guess you would have added a smilie or a winkie if you didn’t really think so.

My bad. :o

Hopefully Gaius took it in the tongue-in-cheek manner in which it was meant... with the discussion of long posts and running naked and all. :o

And, well, I could have meant his legs! Yeah, that's it. :)
Wait, Stewie...did you see, a couple posts ago, what I thought? It all balances out, in the end.... :) Although, it may matter MOST what Gaius thought.. :nod:
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

Wait, Stewie...did you see, a couple posts ago, what I thought? It all balances out, in the end.... :) Although, it may matter MOST what Gaius thought.. :nod:

I'm glad you got a laugh out of it, Amber! I was going for a laugh.

Hopefully, Gaius will get a laugh out of it, too. :nod: :)

[thepoetinmyhear]

sure seems like a loot of the regulars haven't voted yet, or maybe I just missed it.

Michael

[strandinthewind]

see you in court. :woohoo:


WHO MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE :D

:wavey:

[eclipse]

Hello all
I do not mean to sound ignorant, but how does this work-Were all the songs voted off until just IKINW and Storms were the last 2 to pick from??
Help me Rhonda....
Not sure of the rules
Although as you can tell from my signature-my vote is obvious

[teedee]

Hello all
I do not mean to sound ignorant, but how does this work-Were all the songs voted off until just IKINW and Storms were the last 2 to pick from??
Help me Rhonda....
Not sure of the rules
Although as you can tell from my signature-my vote is obvious



eclipse,

in the title line, you have to write
"final round" and then the song that you are voting for. and you have to do it before 9:00 pm.

hurry up...

[heyjupiter678]

Hello all
I do not mean to sound ignorant, but how does this work-Were all the songs voted off until just IKINW and Storms were the last 2 to pick from??
Help me Rhonda....
Not sure of the rules
Although as you can tell from my signature-my vote is obvious
Yes, IKINW and Storms are the last two choices. If you want to vote, you have to put the name of the song you want to win in the title of your message. And that's it. :)

[strandinthewind]

Its 9:00 p.m. - I think STORMS won

HHOOOOOOOORRRRRAAAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BTW - and again, I LOVE IKINW - but . . .

STEVIE RULES BWAHAHHHHAHHHHAAHHHAAAAAAA - he says while wringing hands :laugh: :wavey:

[thepoetinmyhear]

Don't count IKNINW out yet, Diss's evil plan is still on the horizon! :p

Michael

[strandinthewind]

I thought it ended at 9:00 p.m. :shrug:

If not - NEVER MIND :laugh:

[thepoetinmyhear]

I know but Diss promised we'd be bushwacked and we'd know by whom. ...Still waiting...

Michael

[strandinthewind]

I know but Diss promised we'd be bushwacked and we'd know by whom. ...Still waiting...

Michael

Lord Child - there is no telling what that crazy has up his sleeve!!!!!!!!!!

:] :] :] :] :]

[heyjupiter678]

Its 9:00 p.m. - I think STORMS won

HHOOOOOOOORRRRRAAAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I counted correctly, the final count is like 27-25 in favor of Storms. A very dramatic final round! :nod:

[thepoetinmyhear]

That's my count too! Thanks Rez and sodascouts for a fantastic and fun version of Tusk survivor and thanks Jacob for getting the whole ball rolling on this survivor game.

Michael

[strandinthewind]

If I counted correctly, the final count is like 27-25 in favor of Storms. A very dramatic final round! :nod:

That is my count as well :shug:

Storms is the winner
Storms is the winner
Storms is the winner
Storms is the winner
Storms is the winner
Storms is the winner
Storms is the winner

:] :] :blob2: :blob1: :blob2: :blob1: :] :]

[strandinthewind]

DISSENTION CRIES - "CURSED BE I - FOILED AGAIN!!!!!" :mad:

:wavey: :wavey:
:p :laugh: :woohoo:

[thepoetinmyhear]

you;'ve been reading too much of that pirate name thread over in chit-chat.

Michael

[strandinthewind]

you;'ve been reading too much of that pirate name thread over in chit-chat.

Michael


:laugh: yep!!!!!

But, I know I'm not wrong - bup bup bap bup bap bup - bap bup bap bububub bap bup :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[sodascouts]

With 27 to I Know I'm Not Wrong's 25,

STORMS IS THE TUSK SURVIVOR

By two votes!

[strandinthewind]

With 27 to I Know I'm Not Wrong's 25,

STORMS IS THE TUSK SURVIVOR

By two votes!

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

all hail the chiffoned one and her brilliance!!!!!!

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

:] :] :]

[golden braid]

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

all hail the chiffoned one and her brilliance!!!!!!

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

:] :] :]


Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blob1: :blob2: :blob1:

[diamondsnake]

Yippee!!! Go Stevie!!! She deserved it- her songs are so much more complex then anyone elses on the record. And haunting and beautiful!

[diamondsnake]

Oh I beg to differ, but my knees are sore and I must get up. I fail to see how a string of Stevie notes could be more complex than a Lindsey composition.
Lyrically I meant. And as far as the actual music, the notes, Stevie's are much more appealing anyway.

[shackin'up]

She deserved it- her songs are so much more complex then anyone elses on the record.

Crap.




This game has done severe damage to my nerve-system. Today I walk around with one eye closed firmly, the other one wide open and popping out like Fleetwoods' during concert, limping and a tendency to hang over to the right, screaming "it hurts it hurts".


And I ask you all: Would you please wake me up at the day the guy gets credit for the business-attacking mindset that was the core of the masterpiece to start with? Of course it would't have been the masterpiece that it is without the totally brilliant songwriting of the girls. He does not OWN the album. But let's be fair, he was the catalyst of the thing and his stubborn butthead behaviour put the seed in the ground for a masterpiece. So at least you can say "he owns the spirit of the album". And therefor he would have DESERVED to win.



BUGGER :distress: :distress:

[shackin'up]

Did I miss it, or did you not vote in the final round????? I was counting on you!!!!!! :shrug:

[Mari]

Originally Posted by amber
Then can we (I) look forward to you running across in front of the stage naked?


Well, it sure does make you wonder if everything about Gaius is as long as his posts! :laugh:

I cannot believe I said that outloud. :shocked: :o :laugh:


AHEM. He's mine :cool: Back off, you two.

[strandinthewind]

Oh I beg to differ, but my knees are sore and I must get up. I fail to see how a string of Stevie notes could be more complex than a Lindsey composition.

:laugh: are you expecting us to see an impartial opinion here :laugh: :rolleyes: :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Crap.




This game has done severe damage to my nerve-system. Today I walk around with one eye closed firmly, the other one wide open and popping out like Fleetwoods' during concert, limping and a tendency to hang over to the right, screaming "it hurts it hurts".


And I ask you all: Would you please wake me up at the day the guy gets credit for the business-attacking mindset that was the core of the masterpiece to start with? Of course it would't have been the masterpiece that it is without the totally brilliant songwriting of the girls. He does not OWN the album. But let's be fair, he was the catalyst of the thing and his stubborn butthead behaviour put the seed in the ground for a masterpiece. So at least you can say "he owns the spirit of the album". And therefor he would have DESERVED to win.



BUGGER :distress: :distress:

Well, he did deserve to win if this had been the who was the genius of Tusk thread, but it was not. It was the survivor thead and his best songs (Tusk and SMAP) got booted early on. IKINW is just not as good as Storms. Apparently, the majority agree with that AND it was really 29 to 25 if youi count the two votes not properly cast but clearly in agreement with the concept!

But, I will start a new thread asking the question and LB will win it habds down :cool:

[teedee]

Crap.




This game has done severe damage to my nerve-system. Today I walk around with one eye closed firmly, the other one wide open and popping out like Fleetwoods' during concert, limping and a tendency to hang over to the right, screaming "it hurts it hurts".


And I ask you all: Would you please wake me up at the day the guy gets credit for the business-attacking mindset that was the core of the masterpiece to start with? Of course it would't have been the masterpiece that it is without the totally brilliant songwriting of the girls. He does not OWN the album. But let's be fair, he was the catalyst of the thing and his stubborn butthead behaviour put the seed in the ground for a masterpiece. So at least you can say "he owns the spirit of the album". And therefor he would have DESERVED to win.



BUGGER :distress: :distress:


so are you sa ying stevies song storms, didnt deserve to win.?

[shackin'up]

so are you sa ying stevies song storms, didnt deserve to win.?

You read my post huh?

So the answer is: YES

[ontheEdgeof17]

Well, this ended sucky. :(



-Curtis

[shackin'up]

Well, he did deserve to win if this had been the who was the genius of Tusk thread, but it was not. It was the survivor thead and his best songs (Tusk and SMAP) got booted early on.
But, I will start a new thread asking the question and LB will win it habds down :cool:

Yeah, right.
I fought like H*ll for SMAP. But it would have lost with a bigger difference than now Strand, if it got to the final. A lotta people over here hate that song bigtime, so I just had to take the position that this game was NOT about songquality but going for who deserves to win the competition. I totally adore Storms and I think it's the best thing she's ever written. But I would have voted for WATL, if that one had to be in the final against Storms.

This game lost it's focus on the songs VERY early. I'm okay with that, but please don't come up with the quality of the songs in the final: besides, I disagree with you when it comes to the complexity and brilliance- discussion between Storms and IKINW. I didn't interfere in that one because it stinks imo. If SMAP and Storms had been the last two you could have said the same thing: (manipulated quote by shackin'up (is all you wanna do))

As for Storms being more complex, the layered vocals, the vocal structure itself, the lyrics themselves, the somewhat syncopated style, the soft drumming, LB's (apparently) beautiful arangement, the vocal (all 12 or so layers of them), her complex harmony structure (which I cannot imagine how long it took her to come with that yet people who never sang harmony in thier lives think it just happens ), and the lack of the simple guitar repeating the same hook over and over again all go a long way in expressing yearning, frailty, passion, wanting, and any other purient emotion Storms CLEARLY conveys and all of which make it more complex than SMAP.

Would you still have voted for Storms? ;)

[strandinthewind]

If Storms had been against SMAP - yes, I would have voted for SMAP because I think SMAP is better on a personal note - though SMAP is not more complex in construction than Storms (few on the record except Tusk and Sara are :shrug: ) - I like SMAP better and IMO it is better than Storms. I think LB bleeds his heart on that one as opposed to IKINW. That is subjective on my part, but I would vote it because I like it better. Does that answer your question? :cool: Interestingly, if SMAP had been up against any song, with the slightly possible execption of Sara, I would have wanted SMAP to win.

My objection to this was few actually think IKINW is better than Storms and even fewer will now admit that, but they voted an inferior song in just so LB could win - I think that is the same thing "they" accuse the chiffonheads of doing, i.e. anything so Steive can win - I will never have that mindset - so sue me :laugh:

[shackin'up]

If Storms had been against SMAP - yes, I would have voted for SMAP because I think SMAP is better on a personal note - though SMAP is not more complex in construction than Storms (few on the record except Tusk and Sara are :shrug: ) - I like SMAP better and IMO it is better than Storms. I think LB bleeds his heart on that one as opposed to IKINW. That is subjective on my part, but I would vote it because I like it better. Does that answer your question? :cool: Interestingly, if SMAP had been up against any song, with the slightly possible execption of Sara, I would have wanted SMAP to win.

My objection to this was few actually think IKINW is better than Storms and even fewer will now admit that, but they voted an inferior song in just so LB could win - so sue me :laugh:

Well, see you in court again. :woohoo:

But I still want to mention this: To rank IKINW as a song inferior to Storms is stepping on my heart Strand. You could have said that about WATL. But all other LBsongs are NOT inferior to Storms. I like Storms better on a personal scale, but I would never say they are inferior to Storms.

Sh*t, I stayed out of this so bravely and now I'm in the stinkin' mess of comparison myself. f*ck you dude :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

[strandinthewind]

Well, see you in court again. :woohoo:

But I still want to mention this: To rank IKINW as a song inferior to Storms is stepping on my heart Strand. You could have said that about WATL. But all other LBsongs are NOT inferior to Storms. I like Storms better on a personal scale, but I would never say they are inferior to Storms.

Sh*t, I stayed out of this so bravely and now I'm in the stinkin' mess of
comparison myself. f*ck you dude :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

:laugh: you are gonna be okay - I promise!!!!!!!! :wavey:

Again, I think the composition and lyrics of Storms are just better from an objective point of view. I think it is hard to argue against that from an objective point of view.

Again, I voted for Storms because it is better - period. It is not better than most LB songs on Tusk, but it is better than IKINW. AND - I really like IKINW :laugh:

I think inferior vs. superior arguments should be restrcited to those who can argue then solely from an objective point of view because the minute people start saying "I like it better" it becomes subjective and then everyone is correct IMO :cool:

[dissention]

Ouch. Do you really think so? :(

I do. You're crossing into my territory, bud. :p :laugh: :thumbsup:

[dissention]

I know but Diss promised we'd be bushwacked and we'd know by whom. ...Still waiting...

Michael

Lord child, can't you smell bull**** when it's right in front of your face? :laugh:

[dissention]

Please don't encourage the regurgitation.

That one had me on the floor. :laugh:

[dissention]

And I ask you all: Would you please wake me up at the day the guy gets credit for the business-attacking mindset that was the core of the masterpiece to start with? Of course it would't have been the masterpiece that it is without the totally brilliant songwriting of the girls. He does not OWN the album. But let's be fair, he was the catalyst of the thing and his stubborn butthead behaviour put the seed in the ground for a masterpiece. So at least you can say "he owns the spirit of the album". And therefor he would have DESERVED to win.

Bugger is right. I'm glad that if any Stevie song won it was Storms because it's her best song ever, but even die-hard FM fans don't appreciate the spirit of the album from what I've seen in this game. They automatically toss out anything that is a little weird and experimental and then latch onto the most commercial songs for dear life. It boggles me how crap like Angel stayed around for so long, while brilliant stuff like SMAP, WATL, WMYTYTO, and Not That Funny was kicked to the curb almost instantly.

Yeah, it's all subjective, but honestly, the majority of you guys don't like the weird or experimental stuff unless it's Stevie talking about moons and sisters and intense silence and ghosts in fogs. And even then, you're still sticking with the safest songs. Stevie isn't a risk taker, even when the whole album was about taking risks. Even Christine indulged a bit. But that's all I'll say. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Lord child, can't you smell bull**** when it's right in front of your face? :laugh:

Well, I've been smellin it so long . . . :lol: :lol: :lol:

:wavey: :wavey:

:p :p

[dissention]

Well, I've been smellin it so long . . . :lol: :lol: :lol:

:wavey: :wavey:

:p :p

Then remove your head from your ass, already. :p :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Then remove your head from your ass, already. :p :wavey:

My **** doesn't stink - DON'T YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!

So the smell must be a comin' from the crap you post

:] :] :]

P.S. - for the weak - Dissention and are friends!!!

[teedee]

You read my post huh?

So the answer is: YES




We were voting for best song on the album. Not lindseys business attacking mindset. I think everyone gives lindsey the credit for tusk, being the master mind behind it, but that doesnt mean he has the best songs on the album within FM's fanbase. With credit also comes criticism, you cant have one without the other. there are some who feel tusk was a masterpiece and others that just dont like it. Its not a matter of "they just dont get it", cause there is nothing to get, other than he was approaching tusk in a total different way than rumours. in the end, its what peoples ears accept. unfortunately, some dont look at all that lindsey does , behind the scenes, but even if they do see all he does, the end result is still the songs, and if ppl dont like it, they dont like it. I think lindsey is a wonderful producer, he is definately a great guitarist, do i think he is the greatest songwriter, no, do i like his music, yes, but not every song. this was a simple little game. doesnt mean a thing. So Stevie won best song on basically a Lindsey FM album, alert the presses, thats the power of Stevie. lol its all in fun. or its supposed to be, but i guess some cant take losing without having to criticize the winner, and i dont mean you directly. take care.

[Sugar]

To me, Storms is a good song, but it's a little static. It's like her sitting in a window, looking out over a cloudy day, thinking about a relationship went bad and how she will move on. And believe me, more than once in the lower parts of my life, I have found myself singing "Every night that goes between/ I feel a little less".

HOWEVER... :lol:

IKINW describes a person in conflict. He thinks/knows it's over, but he looks at her and comments "her eyes look sad" which is only something you say if you still have empathy for that person. And the "please be strong/ I know I'm not wrong" always made me think he was saying "our relationship is worth holding on to, I know it, be strong!" So he's wrestling with it being over and still wanting it. With letting go, and with hanging on.

IKINW is conflict, while Storms is static resignation. And conflict is more interesting that static from an objective point of view, right Strand? :lol: I mean who could argue that from an objective point of view? :lol:

(Sorry, Jason, it was beyond my restraint capabilities... :xoxo: )

[dissention]

My **** doesn't stink - DON'T YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!

So the smell must be a comin' from the crap you post

:] :] :]

P.S. - for the weak - Dissention and are friends!!!

Sorry, there's only one of us whose arse smells like roses, my dear. :xoxo:

[teedee]

Bugger is right. I'm glad that if any Stevie song won it was Storms because it's her best song ever, but even die-hard FM fans don't appreciate the spirit of the album from what I've seen in this game. They automatically toss out anything that is a little weird and experimental and then latch onto the most commercial songs for dear life. It boggles me how crap like Angel stayed around for so long, while brilliant stuff like SMAP, WATL, WMYTYTO, and Not That Funny was kicked to the curb almost instantly.

Yeah, it's all subjective, but honestly, the majority of you guys don't like the weird or experimental stuff unless it's Stevie talking about moons and sisters and intense silence and ghosts in fogs. And even then, you're still sticking with the safest songs. Stevie isn't a risk taker, even when the whole album was about taking risks. Even Christine indulged a bit. But that's all I'll say. :laugh:



So you call Angel, in your opinion crap, while IKINW and SMAP masterpieces. thats your opinion. its not that ppl dont like the fact that lindsey likes to experiment, but the end result is what people hear, and if it doesnt sound nice to ones ears they may not like it. to say ppl go for the more commercial songs, its just their opinion of what they like. I will say that tusk is the total opposite of the Rumours feel, but to say that he is so experimental as to say "weird" I wouldnt use that word. To me thats just an excuse to label why someone may not like a Tusk , lindsey song. then to state ppl only vote for the wierd, mystical songs of stevies, thats just not so. i can appreciate, something thats out there and different but to say that his stuff is way out there , may be compared to rumours, within fleetwood mac, but not in the grand scheme of things.

[sparky]

Yeah, it's all subjective, but honestly, the majority of you guys don't like the weird or experimental stuff unless it's Stevie talking about moons and sisters and intense silence and ghosts in fogs. And even then, you're still sticking with the safest songs. Stevie isn't a risk taker, even when the whole album was about taking risks. Even Christine indulged a bit. But that's all I'll say. :laugh:

Number one, someone ought to get email addreses and send out Xanax. But hey, I can get wound up about things myself....just not song games.

I don't think that Stevie has been experimental...almost ever. With the exception of her disco flavor (I Can't Wait...EFO...Sister Honey...mostly song collaborations.) In fact, the unususal vibe that we hear in Sara and Storms are from production. Which, judging from the demos, Lindsey can take the credit for.

As far as LB's independent and creative streak...it certainly began with this record and he had a lot of guts doing what he did. I don't begrudge his experimental stuff one little bit. In fact, I think that Go Insane is his best work, and "Play In The Rain is probably my favorite LB song of all time. I just find many of his songs on Tusk to be annoying. The staccato, abrupt pacing and the tones of his vocals tend to grate on me. Even though it is the sound of a man stretching and growing as an artist, some of it hurts my ears (TEFM and NTF in particular).

So it isn't the spirit of any of that experimentation that throws this usual Chiffonhead. Frankly, it's the execution. A matter of taste, to be sure.

[stefan]

We were voting for best song on the album.
No we didn`t

[Merf]

Number one, someone ought to get email addreses and send out Xanax. But hey, I can get wound up about things myself....just not song games.



Finally, someone with some sense!!!! :nod: It's so hilarious to me how people get so worked up about this-- the animosity runs deep and perhaps it's because I've "only" been a fan since 1997 and don't quite understand it. It always comes down to the Lindsey Ledge vs. the Stevie Ledge and it's lame as hell. So I guess we need to add something else to the Ledge FAQ: Never, ever, ever post any threads that are "competitions" between the band members' work, because it will always lead to pages and pages of ridiculous circular logic and pot shots at other posters!!!! Absolutely ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Storms won the game. Big deal. Get over it, people.

[diamondsnake]

Lyrically I would say the song Tusk is the most unique and complex in the sense that it completely abandons the traditional format and goes out on a limb. I know it doesn't elaborate too far nor combine mystical sounding words, but it's the simple challenging the norm by consisting of a chorus in which the one word is forced out.

Musically, I obviously completey disagree aswell. I don't find Stevie's more appealing in the least.
Different strokes...

[stefan]

It always comes down to the Lindsey Ledge vs. the Stevie Ledge and it's lame as hell.
No it isn`t :laugh: :lol:

[diamondsnake]

It boggles me how crap like Angel stayed around for so long, while brilliant stuff like SMAP, WATL, WMYTYTO, and Not That Funny was kicked to the curb almost instantly.

Because a lot of the songs you just listed are not appealing to the ears. Just because something is experimental does not make it a good song.

If you ask me Lindsey is really full of himself giving almost half the songs on Tusk to himself. It resulted in a bunch of songs being released that prob. should have not gone any further then being demos. He should have taken his best songs and made longer versions of them instead of half the album with little one minute songs from Lindsey. Just my oppinion of course. :angel:

[Serrart]

Question for all those who voted for Storms (for whatever reason, mine was that I consider it the best song on Tusk ):

To see Storms win is it worthy of these endless lectures and comments about our bad taste?

I think... YES!!!! :laugh: :thumbsup: :cool:


Romy

[Sugar]

Because a lot of the songs you just listed are not appealing to the ears. Just because something is experimental does not make it a good song.

If you ask me Lindsey is really full of himself giving almost half the songs on Tusk to himself. It resulted in a bunch of songs being released that prob. should have not gone any further then being demos. He should have taken his best songs and made longer versions of them instead of half the album with little one minute songs from Lindsey. Just my oppinion of course. :angel:

Wow. A lot of those songs appeal to my ears... :shrug:

And I think your assessment of Lindsey being "full of himself" is really self-serving. First, he did help produce the album, but he wasn't the only producer, so it's not like he ruled the thing with an iron fist. Second, if you do the math, Stevie actually clocks in with the most time (albeit, about 10 seconds), while Christine truely gets shorted, with about 6 minutes less time than S & L.

[diamondsnake]

Wow. A lot of those songs appeal to my ears... :shrug:

And I think your assessment of Lindsey being "full of himself" is really self-serving. First, he did help produce the album, but he wasn't the only producer, so it's not like he ruled the thing with an iron fist. Second, if you do the math, Stevie actually clocks in with the most time (albeit, about 10 seconds), while Christine truely gets shorted, with about 6 minutes less time than S & L.
Like I said, he should have branched out and taken his best ideas and made them into longer songs. It is pretty annoying if you ask me to hear a minute and a half of a song and then it quickly ends.

This is just my opinion- what a message board is about. Sharing opinions and ideas. Clearly Stevie is my favorite member of the band but I truely love a lot of Lindsey's work- I just think he went too far on this record. I love his stuff on Say You Will because he appeals to the masses and is experimental at the same time. Some how he was able to balance the two and Say You Will ended up being my favorite record.

[teedee]

No we didn`t



I did and so did 26 other people.

[shackin'up]

Absolutely ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Storms won the game. Big deal. Get over it, people.

1. It is fun to cross swords with fellowfans.
2. If you don't like it, neglect it.
3. I've been in love with Tusk since the day it came out. It's the soundtrack of my life. Something you'd never could appeal to. And I would never expect that either. So if you think this animosity is ridiculous? go ahead.
4. Some of us have been fighting for songs in this game with a lot of spirit. Storms won the game. No big deal...................








BUT PLEASE LET ME ACT OUT MY FRUSTRATION AT LEAST FOR 24 HOURS AFTER FIGHTING FOR OVER A MONTH!!!!!!!!

prozac, please


:D :D :D

[shackin'up]

I did and so did 26 other people.

No you did, in your opinion.

What the other 26 were doing you don't know.

[teedee]

No you did, in your opinion.

What the other 26 were doing you don't know.



and you do know? how bout the 25 votes for lindseys song, those were all pure votes. wow, i never saw such a sore loser, with so many explainations. its a game, just cause you lost doesnt mean you shouldnt have had fun along the way. If it makes you feel better, lindsey was runner up. lol . NEXT...

[strandinthewind]

BUT PLEASE LET ME ACT OUT MY FRUSTRATION AT LEAST FOR 24 HOURS AFTER FIGHTING FOR OVER A MONTH!!!!!!!!

prozac, please


:D :D :D

Firw Away my friend - Fire Away!!!!!!!!! :D :nod:

[dissention]

If you ask me Lindsey is really full of himself giving almost half the songs on Tusk to himself.

As opposed to over six minutes of Sara and almost every other Stevie song running over five minutes? :shrug:

I don't think any of them were full of themselves, I think they did what they needed to do artistically.

[dissention]

Like I said, he should have branched out and taken his best ideas and made them into longer songs. It is pretty annoying if you ask me to hear a minute and a half of a song and then it quickly ends.

I'd love to hear your take on D.W. Suite. ;)

[dissention]

Storms won the game. Big deal. Get over it, people.

You know I love you, darling, but if you don't like it... :xoxo: :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

As opposed to over six minutes of Sara and almost every other Stevie song running over five minutes? :shrug:

I don't think any of them were full of themselves, I think they did what they needed to do artistically.

AND - I like the longer Cleaning Lady Sara even better!!!!!!!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

I also think it is very interesting that NONE of the vocal IKINW people can even congratulate Stevie on the victory - talk about your sore losers!!!!!

:rolleyes: :laugh: :wavey: :wavey: ;)

[teedee]

You find a song that lasts a minute and a half annoying?
I think you're missing out on half the pop songs ever released then. :rolleyes:

And all those people complaining that Lindsey's songs aren't complicated enough, obviously haven't heard the expression "less is more". It makes me sad that still so-called fans don't get Tusk. Back in 1979 one of the great rock journalists, Greil Marcus, expressed his disappointment at the reaction Tusk got saying it was sad proof of the "growing conservatism of the rock n roll mainstream". Unfortunately, 25 years on that still appears to be the case.

That said I certainly don't agree with Dissention's assessment that Stevie didn't take risks on Tusk. I think she did and that's why it contains her best ever material. IMO of course...





what i dont get, is when ppl say "the so called fans "dont get tusk". Did you ever think that they do "GET" it, they just dont like it. He was going for the opposite or rumours, we get that, and he got just that, did he not.

[dissention]

AND - I like the longer Cleaning Lady Sara even better!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like that one more than the album version, too, but I just don't get the logic behind Chritopher's statement. :shrug: If someone has a bunch of short, two minute songs, they're full of themselves. If they have five songs that are epic in length, they're not. I don't understand it.

Note: This is not me saying that I think Stevie is full of herself on Tusk, I don't think that. Only if she had pushed for the ten minute version of Sara. ;) :laugh:

[dissention]

I also think it is very interesting that NONE of the vocal IKINW people can even congratulate Stevie on the victory - talk about your sore losers!!!!!

:rolleyes: :laugh: :wavey: :wavey: ;)

I did, my dear. Go read it. :xoxo: :angel:

I said that if any Stevie song won the game, I'm glad that it was Storms, her best ever song.

[strandinthewind]

I like that one more than the album version, too, but I just don't get the logic behind Chritopher's statement. :shrug: If someone has a bunch of short, two minute songs, they're full of themselves. If they have five songs that are epic in length, they're not. I don't understand it.

Note: This is not me saying that I think Stevie is full of herself on Tusk, I don't think that. Only if she had pushed for the ten minute version of Sara. ;) :laugh:

I do not think he was saying that for that reason. I think he was commenting on LB's tortured artist so don't bother me persona that tends, right or wrong, to come across.

But, I agree, the short songs are not dispositive of being full of himself, although he clearly has an ego, and lord love him for it!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

I did, my dear. Go read it. :xoxo: :angel:

I said that if any Stevie song won the game, I'm glad that it was Storms, her best ever song.

Well, that was not exactly a direct congrats, but whatever. I'll assume you meant no double intent :rolleyes:

Now how about the rest of em :eek:

[dissention]

I do not think he was saying that for that reason. I think he was commenting on LB's tortured artist so don't bother me persona that tends, right or wrong, to come across.

How you got that out of his post, I guess I'll never know. Just like I'll never know how someone can squeeze water out of a stone. ;)

[strandinthewind]

How you got that out of his post, I guess I'll never know. Just like I'll never know how someone can squeeze water out of a stone. ;)

It was all of the posts, not just that one. And - LB clearly many think that - so . . . . :shrug:

[dissention]

Well, that was not exactly a direct congrats, but whatever. I'll assume you meant no double intent :rolleyes:

I thought it was and, no, I didn't. I'm bummed that Lindsey didn't win, but at least her best song did.

I doubt you'll have "direct congrats" for Bush when he wins. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

I thought it was and, no, I didn't. I'm bummed that Lindsey didn't win, but at least her best song did.

I doubt you'll have "direct congrats" for Bush when he wins. :lol:

Now Now - no changing the subject :laugh:

[dissention]

It was all of the posts, not just that one. And - LB clearly many think that - so . . . . :shrug:

Again, I was referring to his two posts on the subject. If you can explain how you got that out of his two posts, I'll gladly listen. Here they are:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=206044&postcount=144
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=206055&postcount=147

:angel:

[shackin'up]

how bout the 25 votes for lindseys song, those were all pure votes.

No. But I didn't state that me and 24 others were voting for the best song. You did that about your 26 friends.

I constantly said that this game was NOT about voting for the best song.

Hey, I irritate you don't I? You give that impression in your posts and PM's that I normally answer but absolutely don't get. :confused:

Well, I'm sorry if I do get you on your nerves.

[strandinthewind]

I think it is possible for people to get the concept of Tusk and just not like it, just like there are people who get Rumors (the drama, blah blah blah) and just do not like it. Such is life and people in general :cool:

For the record, I LOVE them both!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Again, I was referring to his two posts on the subject. If you can explain how you got that out of his two posts, I'll gladly listen. Here they are:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=206044&postcount=144
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=206055&postcount=147

:angel:

I meant "other" posts in the history of his posting - silly!!!!

[dissention]

No. But I didn't state that me and 24 others were voting for the best song. You did that about your 26 friends.

I constantly said that this game was NOT about voting for the best song.

Hey, I irritate you don't I? You give that impression in your posts and PM's that I normally answer but absolutely don't get. :confused:

Well, I'm sorry if I do get you on your nerves.

I have a little friend called the ignore function that I just recently employed. You should try it, Gerald. :wavey:

[shackin'up]

I don't think any of them were full of themselves, I think they did what they needed to do artistically.

Oh come on dissention, you're right about the artistic side of it, but they were ALL full of themselves after producing the best selling album of all time. And we would too, if that happened to us.

[strandinthewind]

I realise that, but Christopher's comments make me think he doesn't quite get it IMO. Also, there are definitely some fans who only go for the commercial material and are hostile to Tusk because it sounds slightly different (which is a good thing in my book).


Touche' Touche'

[Hawkeye]

Shackin Up, I don't know what you're so mad about, your 2 favorite songs were in the final freaking 2. It just so happens your #2 narrowly beat your #1. If I were you I'd be quite pleased witrh this Survivor.

.
And for those including myself were wondering what the definition of a "Chiffon Head" is. I think the answer to the question is TeeDee and Christopher :lol: :laugh:

[dissention]

Oh come on dissention, you're right about the artistic side of it, but they were ALL full of themselves after producing the best selling album of all time. And we would too, if that happened to us.

I mena musically. :laugh: Of course they were egomaniacs and that had a large part in Tusk being a double album, but when it comes to the songs themselves, i think they just did what they needed to do artistically.

[shackin'up]

You find a song that lasts a minute and a half annoying?
I think you're missing out on half the pop songs ever released then. :rolleyes:

And all those people complaining that Lindsey's songs aren't complicated enough, obviously haven't heard the expression "less is more". It makes me sad that still so-called fans don't get Tusk. Back in 1979 one of the great rock journalists, Greil Marcus, expressed his disappointment at the reaction Tusk got saying it was sad proof of the "growing conservatism of the rock n roll mainstream". Unfortunately, 25 years on that still appears to be the case.

That said I certainly don't agree with Dissention's assessment that Stevie didn't take risks on Tusk. I think she did and that's why it contains her best ever material. IMO of course...

Hail Sharon.

[strandinthewind]

:nod: Tusk is the Mac's big self indulgent album.

and gloriously so IMO!!!!!!!!!

[teedee]

Well I was responding to Christopher who was giving reasons to why he didn't like Tusk (which is why I personally think he didn't understand what Lindsey was doing on that album), so I'm not sure why you are replying.


nothing personal, its just that i have heard that term many times before being used "they dont get it". and thats what i was referring to.

[strandinthewind]

Shackin Up, I don't know what you're so mad about, your 2 favorite songs were in the final freaking 2. It just so happens your #2 narrowly beat your #1. If I were you I'd be quite pleased witrh this Survivor.

.
And for those including myself were wondering what the definition of a "Chiffon Head" is. I think the answer to the question is TeeDee and Christopher :lol: :laugh:

AND - please do not forget Dissention - he is a self admitted chiffon head!!! :shrug: :xoxo: :angel: :wavey:

[dissention]

AND - please do not forget Dissention - he is a self admitted chiffon head!!! :shrug: :xoxo: :angel: :wavey:

But one who calls crap when he hears it. ;)

[teedee]

No. But I didn't state that me and 24 others were voting for the best song. You did that about your 26 friends.

I constantly said that this game was NOT about voting for the best song.

Hey, I irritate you don't I? You give that impression in your posts and PM's that I normally answer but absolutely don't get. :confused:

Well, I'm sorry if I do get you on your nerves.


Irritate me, hun not in the least, this is a chat board, nothing on here is taken seriously by me. whats this about PM's? you want to get them or your saying you never get them?


oh what were we voting for if not the best song? just curious.

[shackin'up]

Shackin Up, I don't know what you're so mad about, your 2 favorite songs were in the final freaking 2. It just so happens your #2 narrowly beat your #1. If I were you I'd be quite pleased witrh this Survivor.


You are totally right, Hawkeye. I think the two best songs survived and fought a battle that was honest. The frustration and anger, of course partially exaggerated for fun, -we're here for fun right?- is best articulated in Trackaghost's post about people not "getting" Tusk and the fact that a lot of voting was against the challenging, more vulnerable songs ( I mean "musically" on the dangerous edge-vulnerable) early in the game that just put me on the mission for Lindsey. And on the mission for the one that owns the spirit of TUSK, that would not have been the masterpiece it is if it had been cut back to 11 or twelve songs.

I'm not against the other two. Aux contraire, I still think Tusk is the best album ever recorded by anyone. And that does NOT mean that I only like 9 songs out of 20. They are dear to me. All 20.

[teedee]

AND - please do not forget Dissention - he is a self admitted chiffon head!!! :shrug: :xoxo: :angel: :wavey:


wow i never thought of my self as a chiffon head but thank you so kindly for the compliment!

I can appreciate both artists and the entire band for their contributions. But if because i voted for storms, makes me a chiffon head, well If thats the way you have to sum it up, then so be it. what this comes down to ,as stated by many is a L vs S. and if you dont like the results then dont play. lol its suppose to be fun...

[stefan]

Irritate me, hun not in the least, this is a chat board, nothing on here is taken seriously by me. whats this about PM's? you want to get them or your saying you never get them?


oh what were we voting for if not the best song? just curious.
As you responded to my initial post I`ll explain it to you. This thread/game is about making allies. At least that was the way it was played here. Songs that are quite succesful get voted out because they could probably win.
Try another thread (I beg you- don't) that is called "The best song on Tusk"-poll and songs that had to leave here early make it to the top 5.

[stefan]

-we're here for fun right?

Uhmmm- no :lol:

[shackin'up]

Irritate me, hun not in the least, this is a chat board, nothing on here is taken seriously by me. whats this about PM's? you want to get them or your saying you never get them?

No I don't "get" them. Non comprende. Nicht verstehen. QwaaHH??? I do not understand them correctly if you know what I mean. Now I understand if you don't understand me, because I write crappy english. But I can read and understand english quite well.


oh what were we voting for if not the best song? just curious.

I'm not going to explain again. I already am a sore loser full of explanations.
And now I am not going to respond to your posts or PM's anymore. I found the ignorefunction. It's nothing personal. Thank Dissention.

:wavey:

[teedee]

We love ya Gerald :xoxo:

I think a lot of people get on teedee's nerves, it's not just you.

why do you think you or anyone get on my nerves, simply because i dont agree with what someone posts.if anything im sure i get on your nerves because you dont like what i say in response if i disagree. isnt everyones oppinion welcomed, isnt it ok for myself to swing swords with other fans or is that for the few select LB admirers only. just because i voted for storms, that doesnt limit my appreciation for LB at all.

[shackin'up]

Wow, I just had to post more of Greil Marcus' defense of Tusk from 1979. I'm sure Gerald and Gaius will appreciate it, at the very least.

"The stand Fleetwood Mac has taken with Tusk is as brave as that Bob Dylan took with John Wesley Harding - braver, maybe, because Fleetwood Mac can't rely on Dylan's kind of charisma, or on the kind of loyalty he commands. With its insistence on perceptions snatched out of a blur, drawing on (but never imitating) Jamaican dub and ancient Appalachian ballads, Fleetwood Mac is subverting the music from the inside out, very much like one of John Le Carre's moles - who, planted in the heart of the establishment, does not begin his secret campaign of sabotage and betrayal until everyone has gotten used to him, and takes him for granted."

How cool is that?



:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Who is this clairvoyant, this big Truthteller?

Hail Marcus. The Man Is right. Frick, can you join his Church?

:laugh: :thumbsup:

[teedee]

No I don't "get" them. Non comprende. Nicht verstehen. QwaaHH??? I do not understand them correctly if you know what I mean. Now I understand if you don't understand me, because I write crappy english. But I can read and understand english quite well.




I'm not going to explain again. I already am a sore loser full of explanations.
And now I am not going to respond to your posts or PM's anymore. I found the ignorefunction. It's nothing personal. Thank Dissention.

:wavey:



tootles... you know what they say if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen. to bad you feel that way, guess i got on your nerves, darling but it was not the other way around. best of luck .

[face of glass]

Wow, I just had to post more of Greil Marcus' defense of Tusk from 1979. I'm sure Gerald and Gaius will appreciate it, at the very least.
I don't like Marcus' writing that much, I hate him for lambasting British prog-rock and other "pretentious"-sounding '70s music and I hate the neo-Marxist school of rock criticism he represents. But in this statement I support him.

Jason, you'll get your due and more tomorrow (not that anyone cares about it by then). I'm tired now, honey. ;)
Hopefully Gaius took it in the tongue-in-cheek manner in which it was meant... with the discussion of long posts and running naked and all.
:xoxo: I got the joke Johnny. And look, it won't be too long before I get to do that for you and Amber. ;) http://www.bluewhitefire.com/countdown.htm.

[face of glass]

I also LOVE this.
Let's also not forget this brilliant piece at Head Heritage:
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/review/813.

The guy even gets away with a statement like this in my eyes. Good stuff:
Meanwhile, Nicks' "Beautiful Child" is an achingly sad song about unrequited love that pulls off the enviable feat of managing to sound totally unforced and sincere despite containing enough lyrical and emotional cliches to rival a Phil Collins hit.

[Johnny Stew]

Did I miss it, or did you not vote in the final round????? I was counting on you!!!!!! :shrug:

I'm sorry, Gerald... I actually didn't vote in either of the last two rounds.
I absolutely could not vote against "Beautiful Child" to save "I Know I'm Not Wrong," and I couldn't vote against "I Know I'm Not Wrong" to save "Beautiful Child."

And in this very last round, I looked over the vote tallies close to the end of the game, and saw that my one vote wasn't going to make a difference anyway, so I decided to just not vote so I wouldn't have to feel dirty. :distress:

[Johnny Stew]

I constantly said that this game was NOT about voting for the best song.

I guess that's where I went wrong, because that's what I tried my best to do throughout the entire thing.
I vote in favor of the songs that move me most, or against the songs that do nothing for me.
(I should add here that, despite the comments in my next few paragraphs, Lindsey has more of the former type songs on 'Tusk' for me, than he does the latter. The latter mainly, and pretty much solely, including one particular song that I need not mention by this point! The next few paragraphs are merely in defense of those who "get" the spirit, but happen to not be wild about the execution.)

Lindsey deserve an extreme amount of credit for his contributions to 'Tusk,' though I do think it's unfair to say that those who favor the contributions of Stevie and Christine are "playing it safe," or only prefer softer, more commercial songs.

I love Lindsey's 'Tusk' songs now... though I didn't always. But I came to love and appreciate them.
Still, as SONGS, I tend to think he has much stronger tracks on other albums.
And I'm not talking "safe" stuff like "Go Your Own Way" or "Trouble"... I'm talking about things like "Play In The Rain" and "D.W. Suite."

I tend to prefer when his experimental touches are there for the sake of the song, instead of just for the sake of being experimental, and I have a feeling others may feel this same way. :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

AND - please do not forget Dissention - he is a self admitted chiffon head!!! :shrug:

But one who calls crap when he hears it. ;)

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? ;) :laugh:

[dissention]

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? ;) :laugh:

:laugh: :xoxo:

The majority of Stevie's material is quality stuff. But like the Rolling Stone review for the Mirror album said, when she's good, she's great; when she's bad, she's BAD. :D

[sparky]

....I decided to just not vote so I wouldn't have to feel dirty. :distress:

Didn't you already feel dirty aftet that little statement about Gaius ?
:wavey:

[shackin'up]

I tend to prefer when his experimental touches are there for the sake of the song, instead of just for the sake of being experimental. :shrug:

That means you think there are songs on Tusk that are "just for the sake of being experimental" ? Then I am sorry, Johnny, but I don't see that. I think There's a LOT of melody and GREAT again GREAT vocallayers in even the shortest, pointy songs that stand out for a VERY long time. I still love those songs after all these years. And good lord how many times did I play this record?

PS; isn't it a very great compliment on the subtle-ness and quality of a song if it takes a long time to grow on you?

[shackin'up]

I'm sorry, Gerald... I actually didn't vote in either of the last two rounds.
I absolutely could not vote against "Beautiful Child" to save "I Know I'm Not Wrong," and I couldn't vote against "I Know I'm Not Wrong" to save "Beautiful Child."

And in this very last round, I looked over the vote tallies close to the end of the game, and saw that my one vote wasn't going to make a difference anyway, so I decided to just not vote so I wouldn't have to feel dirty. :distress:

ARE YOU A MAN OR A MOUSE ARTHUR PEWTY!!!
(monty python)

I counted on you. Doesn't letting ME down make you feel dirty?

Shame on you, mr. Backbone! :p ;)

[Johnny Stew]

:laugh: :xoxo:

The majority of Stevie's material is quality stuff. But like the Rolling Stone review for the Mirror album said, when she's good, she's great; when she's bad, she's BAD. :D

Well, I still disagree that any of these songs is ever as "bad" as people make them out to be. Maybe not as great as a "Rhiannon" or "Silver Springs," but not "crap," as is often stated.
I listen to a heap load of other artists, and, trust me, even something like "Two Kinds Of Love" will never be anywhere near as bad as some of Bonnie Tyler's Germany-only releases, or some of the sickeningly sweet latter-day pop by formerly incredible singers and/or songwriters (Elton John, Rod Stewart, Phil Collins, etc.)... for just two examples.

Even Stevie's so-called "crap" is better than a lot of what's out there, IMO.

But... my "contradiction in terms" comment is based on, what seems to me to be, the general assumption that a "Chiffon Head" is one who follows Stevie at all costs, with a complete and utter disregard for logicality. One who blindly follows out of mere loyalty.

[Johnny Stew]

Didn't you already feel dirty aftet that little statement about Gaius ?

I would have, if I had meant it in a lecherous way. Thankfully, Gaius appreciated the humour intended! :D

[sparky]

I would have, if I had meant it in a lecherous way. Thankfully, Gaius appreciated the humour intended! :D


I couldn't help but give you a bad time about it. I like it when you get saucy.

[Serrart]

I guess that's where I went wrong, because that's what I tried my best to do throughout the entire thing.
I vote in favor of the songs that move me most, or against the songs that do nothing for me.

Lindsey deserve an extreme amount of credit for his contributions to 'Tusk,' though I do think it's unfair to say that those who favor the contributions of Stevie and Christine are "playing it safe," or only prefer softer, more commercial songs

I totally agree, and I can't really say that Lindsey is the master of Tusk, because there was more than one creative head at work. I think Tusk is a very uncompromising album, that explores different directions from a song to another. The listener can choose to follow one of the paths or enjoy the enthralling disharmony that comes from their blending.

Romy

[Johnny Stew]

That means you think there are songs on Tusk that are "just for the sake of being experimental" ? Then I am sorry, Johnny, but I don't see that. I think There's a LOT of melody and GREAT again GREAT vocallayers in even the shortest, pointy songs that stand out for a VERY long time. I still love those songs after all these years. And good lord how many times did I play this record?

PS; isn't it a very great compliment on the subtle-ness and quality of a song if it takes a long time to grow on you?

Gaius and I have had this discussion before, and there are times when I think experimentalism (is that a word?!) benefits the song, and brings it to even higher levels of greatness.
And then there are times when I think hitting a box of tissues is done just to do something "different," and doesn't aid the song itself in any way. :shrug:

Nearly all of Lindsey's 'Tusk' material belongs in the former category to me, but not 100% of it.

And yes, I do agree that it's a great compliment on a song when it contains enough elements to ingrain itself into your psyche, until such time as you realize you've come to absolutely love it.

Because 'Tusk' was an "expensive" double-album, and I didn't have a ton of money... and also because my Uncle was a Lindsey fan (who lost all interest in him by 1984, I'm sad to say... though I'm trying to re-ignite his interest, with things like "Murrow")... I actually had a vinyl copy of 'Law & Order' and a cassette of 'Go Insane' before I had 'Tusk.'
So I was already very familiar with Lindsey's offbeat solo songs, and loved them... but his 'Tusk' songs were just a little too raw and unfinished to my ears when I finally heard them.

Thankfully, my opinion changed favorably over the years... but I can still see, based on my initial reactions, why some people feel he has other offbeat/experimental music that's more appealing overall.

(By the way, if you haven't already, re-read my post that you were commenting on. I re-edited it a little bit after I posted it, to clarify the reason behind my statements. :))

[Johnny Stew]

I couldn't help but give you a bad time about it. I like it when you get saucy.

:laugh:

Thanks! My friends usually tell me it's a side of me that they really get a kick out of. :o

[The Tower]

I couldn't help but give you a bad time about it. I like it when you get saucy.

"Don't get saucy with ME, Bernaise..."

[Johnny Stew]

"Don't get saucy with ME, Bernaise..."

I LOVE that movie!!!

[sparky]

"Don't get saucy with ME, Bernaise..."

I ought to know this quote.

[chiffon head]

..........

[Johnny Stew]

I ought to know this quote.

'History Of The World, Part 1.' :D

[Johnny Stew]

Final Round ~ Storms

It kind of got lost in the last six or seven pages of conversation, but the final round is over and "Storms" took the top spot. :)

[strandinthewind]

. . .
Jason, you'll get your due and more tomorrow (not that anyone cares about it by then). I'm tired now, honey. ;)



Now Now - sour grapes are never pretty - even if they are Finnish :laugh:

(I am joking BTW :cool: )

[strandinthewind]

Didn't you already feel dirty aftet that little statement about Gaius ?
:wavey:

No - he took a shower between the two :eek:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey: Brian :cool:

[strandinthewind]

"Don't get saucy with ME, Bernaise..."

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Count de Monet: My Lord, you look just like the piss-boy!
King Louis XVI: And you look like a bucket of ****!

Insolent Flunky: Count yer money.
Count de Monet: Count de Monet!

Bearnaise: I don't like your cuffs!... I don't like your cuffs! I don't like your cuffs! A man's cuffs should be even with the tip of his 'pee-pee'. Yours are all the way down to your balls!
Count de Monet: At least I have them!
Bearnaise: Bitch!

OTHER PERIODS

Let's face it; You can't Torquemada anything!

Send in the Nuns

Marcus Vindictus: What bait must I use to catch your love? I am your servant.
Empress Nympho: Ah, but the servant waits, while the master baits.
____________________________________________

Sorry - back the reg. scheduled programming - Stevie Won :woohoo:

[strandinthewind]

I ought to know this quote.

You are BANISHED forthwith for five minutes from any place where you would hold your head with pride and in high regard :laugh: :laugh:

Sorry - HotW - 1 is my fav.

:cool:

[diamondsnake]

Well I was responding to Christopher who was giving reasons to why he didn't like Tusk (which is why I personally think he didn't understand what Lindsey was doing on that album), so I'm not sure why you are replying.

I do like Tusk! I just think a handfull of Lindsey's songs are annoying and I can't say that about Stevie (that's why I voted for Storms and not IKINW). I love WATL, the Ledge, Tusk and IKINW. The others I could pass on. I don't think this makes me any less of a fan.

[dissention]

Well, I still disagree that any of these songs is ever as "bad" as people make them out to be. Maybe not as great as a "Rhiannon" or "Silver Springs," but not "crap," as is often stated.
I listen to a heap load of other artists, and, trust me, even something like "Two Kinds Of Love" will never be anywhere near as bad as some of Bonnie Tyler's Germany-only releases, or some of the sickeningly sweet latter-day pop by formerly incredible singers and/or songwriters (Elton John, Rod Stewart, Phil Collins, etc.)... for just two examples.

Even Stevie's so-called "crap" is better than a lot of what's out there, IMO.


And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

You simply can't compare an artist like Stevie to artists like Bonnie Tyler or Rod Stewart because you can't compare Sable On Blonde or Trouble In Shangri-La to Total Eclipse or Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. I mean, C'MON. :laugh:

[Hawkeye]

And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

You simply can't compare an artist like Stevie to artists like Bonnie Tyler or Rod Stewart because you can't compare Sable On Blonde or Trouble In Shangri-La to Total Eclipse or Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. I mean, C'MON. :laugh:

it's like comparing apples and oranged flavored vomit :laugh:

[diamondsnake]

And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

You simply can't compare an artist like Stevie to artists like Bonnie Tyler or Rod Stewart because you can't compare Sable On Blonde or Trouble In Shangri-La to Total Eclipse or Do Ya Think I'm Sexy. I mean, C'MON. :laugh:
Imperial Hotel rocks my world!

[Johnny Stew]

And that's the thing. Stevie is NOT Bonnie Tyler, she's NOT Elton John, Rod Stewart, or Phil Collins; she's better than all of them. That's why when she releases garbage like Imperial Hotel, Two Kinds of Love, and Jane, I'm shocked at how terrible it can truly be.

I know full well that Stevie is not Bonnie Tyler, et al. She's also not Cher or Tina Turner or Debbie Harry, but that sure doesn't stop folks from bringing those ladies up in relation to Stevie. ;)
My point is that "crap" is a relative term.

I've heard what I would call utter crap, and it's not any of the "garbage" songs you named.

Are they as good as some of Stevie's earlier work? That's highly debatable.
I'd personally have to say no, in regards to those particular songs.
But the implication is always that there's nothing of value to be found in them, and, on that, I whole-heartedly disagree.
In my eyes, they all have merit. They're all essential components in Stevie's oeuvre.

And, with my deepest apologies, I simply don't have the unrealistic expectation for a songwriter to match or top what I consider to be their best songs, with every single attempt.

It's the natural ebb and flow of things. I expect to be bowled over by certain songs, and underwhelmed by others. It's bound to happen.

I'm risking being accused of making this a Lindsey vs. Stevie thing with this comment, but Lindsey is the quickest example of someone who releases material only very sporadically, so here goes:
Even with the great amount of years that go between Lindsey's releases, there are still songs he puts out there, that leave me cold.

There's nothing horrible about that. As I said, it's bound to happen. And, obviously, it's bound to happen whether someone releases new songs every couple of years or every seven years.

When I hear a song that I'm not crazy about, I simply trust that another will come along in a few minutes, that I will be crazy about.
No major letdowns at some songs not living up to my demands. Or towards the artist for including material they happen to like.

At best, certain songs will hit me where I live and rattle me to my core. At worst, I'll have 4 minutes of an "ok" song.
That's all I expect, and I haven't been disappointed yet. :shrug:

[diamondsnake]

I know full well that Stevie is not Bonnie Tyler, et al. She's also not Cher or Tina Turner or Debbie Harry, but that sure doesn't stop folks from bringing those ladies up in relation to Stevie. ;)
My point is that "crap" is a relative term.

I've heard what I would call utter crap, and it's not any of the "garbage" songs you named.

Are they as good as some of Stevie's earlier work? That's highly debatable.
I'd personally have to say no, in regards to those particular songs.
But the implication is always that there's nothing of value to be found in them, and, on that, I whole-heartedly disagree.
In my eyes, they all have merit. They're all essential components in Stevie's oeuvre.

And, with my deepest apologies, I simply don't have the unrealistic expectation for a songwriter to match or top what I consider to be their best songs, with every single attempt.

It's the natural ebb and flow of things. I expect to be bowled over by certain songs, and underwhelmed by others. It's bound to happen.

I'm risking being accused of making this a Lindsey vs. Stevie thing with this comment, but Lindsey is the quickest example of someone who releases material only very sporadically, so here goes:
Even with the great amount of years that go between Lindsey's releases, there are still songs he puts out there, that leave me cold.

There's nothing horrible about that. As I said, it's bound to happen. And, obviously, it's bound to happen whether someone releases new songs every couple of years or every seven years.

When I hear a song that I'm not crazy about, I simply trust that another will come along in a few minutes, that I will be crazy about.
No major letdowns at some songs not living up to my demands. Or towards the artist for including material they happen to like.

At best, certain songs will hit me where I live and rattle me to my core. At worst, I'll have 4 minutes of an "ok" song.
That's all I expect, and I haven't been disappointed yet. :shrug:

Great post!

Can I add one thing? I think it is amazing that twenty-five years after Stevie was named "the queen of rock" by Rolling Stones and selling millions of albums, etc. she is still topping herself. At least I think so. Say You Will is my favorite Fleetwood Mac album and TISL has some of her best solo songs to date. I actually think she is at the top of her game right now.

[GypsySorcerer]

Great post!

Can I add one thing? I think it is amazing that twenty-five years after Stevie was named "the queen of rock" by Rolling Stones and selling millions of albums, etc. she is still topping herself. At least I think so. Say You Will is my favorite Fleetwood Mac album and TISL has some of her best solo songs to date. I actually think she is at the top of her game right now.

Well, I don't think she's sold "millions of albums" for a long time. ;)

I love Stevie; I really do. I wouldn't exactly say she is topping herself, though. I agree that SYW and TISL had some great songs on there. However, many of them are old demos, written in her "prime." Some of her newer material was fairly generic. Also, vocally, she's not in her top form. So while Stevie is still a fantastic artist, I disagree she's at the top of her game.

[shackin'up]

Well, I don't think she's sold "millions of albums" for a long time. ;)

I love Stevie; I really do. I wouldn't exactly say she is topping herself, though. I agree that SYW and TISL had some great songs on there. However, many of them are old demos, written in her "prime." Some of her newer material was fairly generic. Also, vocally, she's not in her top form. So while Stevie is still a fantastic artist, I disagree she's at the top of her game.

Alright, I agree with that. I think she was on her top during Tusk/Bella Donna. Lindsey, however is reinventing himself a lot more. The thing is, that he has the nerves to bring out music with a much bigger timelapse in between, so his development is more obvious. But I really think Stevie should take more risks in songwriting. She DID with illume and to lesser extend with Destiny rules, so I hope she takes that futher into a next Mac/solo-album.

[DeadliestPoison]

Also, vocally, she's not in her top form
IMO, she was in top-form vocally during OSOTM.

And that's all I have to add. :laugh:

[dissention]

I know full well that Stevie is not Bonnie Tyler, et al. She's also not Cher or Tina Turner or Debbie Harry, but that sure doesn't stop folks from bringing those ladies up in relation to Stevie. ;)
My point is that "crap" is a relative term.

Well, when people say "Name another woman pushing sixty who's still rocking out like Stevie and touring so much," someone is obviously going to bring up Debbie Harry or Cher. The difference between that comaparison and the one you used previously is that no one is comparing their music, which is wildly different. ;)

I've heard what I would call utter crap, and it's not any of the "garbage" songs you named.

And that's fine, they're my opinions. But, as always, we're just going to run in circles together because what I think is crap, you think is good; what I might think is good, you might think is crap. It's a no win situation, always has been. :laugh:

Are they as good as some of Stevie's earlier work? That's highly debatable.
I'd personally have to say no, in regards to those particular songs.
But the implication is always that there's nothing of value to be found in them, and, on that, I whole-heartedly disagree.
In my eyes, they all have merit. They're all essential components in Stevie's oeuvre.

And I don't think they all have merits. Yeah, she could still pull out some amazing harmonies, some amazing lines here and there, but for the most part, her creativity was really zapped for a long time and it showed. One of the reasons I don't like or even listen to Street Angel is because it's such a depressing album. There's nothing but pain in her voice because you can hear in her how much she was suffering and how much it affected her work. Are there songs on it I like? Yes. But do they affect me like her other songs? No.

And, with my deepest apologies, I simply don't have the unrealistic expectation for a songwriter to match or top what I consider to be their best songs, with every single attempt.

I don't either. ;) I just expect consistency. I mean, to go from The Wild Heart to a thing such as Rock A Little was mind-boggling to me, even though I have a new appreciation for that album. Or from the Mirror album, one of my favorites, to Street Angel. Talk about your fall from grace, Stevie. :laugh:

Consistency doesn't mean that every song is going to be fantastic or blow me away, it simple means that an artist should have a bar by which they measure what's quality and what isn't. Stevie's bar must have been pretty low for awhile. Thankfully, she got "it" back or we'd be suffering through Two Kinds of Love Part Deux.

I'm risking being accused of making this a Lindsey vs. Stevie thing with this comment, but Lindsey is the quickest example of someone who releases material only very sporadically, so here goes:
Even with the great amount of years that go between Lindsey's releases, there are still songs he puts out there, that leave me cold.

And I have no qualms with that because I feel the same way about Stevie, only she's more likely to have more songs I'm underwhelmed by simply because she's put out a larger catalog.

There are a good number of songs from Lindsey that I still do not like. I can't stand Street Of Dreams, Empire State drives me to drink, the album version of I'm So Afraid is cloying as all hell, etc. I love Lindsey, but he's released crap, too. Stevie's not the only one. ;)

When I hear a song that I'm not crazy about, I simply trust that another will come along in a few minutes, that I will be crazy about.
No major letdowns at some songs not living up to my demands. Or towards the artist for including material they happen to like.

And the thing is, not everyone has such a rosy view like yours when it comes to music. Sorry, but when I spend my money on a Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nicks, or Lindsey Buckingham album, I'm expecting a certain quality from them. If they aren't up to par, I am going to be majorly let down. That's why I still can't stand some of Stevie's work; there are such wide ranges in quality from album to album. I mean, do you just buy an album from them and go in with no expectations whatsoever? If you say yes, you're a bald-faced liar. :wavey:

That's all I expect, and I haven't been disappointed yet. :shrug:

And that's you.

[dissention]

IMO, she was in top-form vocally during OSOTM.

And that's all I have to add. :laugh:

:laugh:

*~*Wise ass*~*

[Travis]

IKINW in the final two???? "What's the World Coming To?"

[Travis]

Voting has ended.
Storms won

Oh good, thanks! :D

[strandinthewind]

Well, I don't think she's sold "millions of albums" for a long time. ;)

I love Stevie; I really do. I wouldn't exactly say she is topping herself, though. I agree that SYW and TISL had some great songs on there. However, many of them are old demos, written in her "prime." Some of her newer material was fairly generic. Also, vocally, she's not in her top form. So while Stevie is still a fantastic artist, I disagree she's at the top of her game.

I do not know about that, in the last seven years, she has sold somewhere around five millions records (The Dance, Enchanted boxed set, TISL, SYW) :shrug: - that sounds like millions to me :laugh: AND - even if you divide The Dance by three and SYW by two, she is still in the millions :shrug: So , that is still pretty good by most standards.

Seriously though, I know what you meant, but I think Stevie, like so many older artists, cannot sell to the youth or rap crowd (which are pretty much the same), which is the market that usually get you millions in sales. But, artisticlly, most reviews suggest she is still on top of it as is FM - and FM was able to tour to generally good numbers for a year and 1/2 :shrug:

AND - ITA Stevie's voice has lost the BD WH and even SA range and she refuses to do that "Because the Night" sound anymore - ditto for the majestic three part harmonies prevelent in the song BD and the roudesq. harmonies a la Nightbird. Other than the end of Jane (in the eyes of the world - you have doooonnnee so much) - that is over. That is sad to me, but it is reality so I moved on (I took my dreams and my love - I went quietly - silently slipping away :cool: )

[dissention]

AND - ITA Stevie's voice has lost the BD WH and even SA range and she refuses to do that "Because the Night" sound anymore - ditto for the majestic three part harmonies prevelent in the song BD and the roudesq. harmonies a la Nightbird. Other than the end of Jane (in the eyes of the world - you have doooonnnee so much) - that is over. That is sad to me, but it is reality so I moved on (I took my dreams and my love - I went quietly - silently slipping away :cool: )

My favorite era of her voice was from '94-'98. Her voice had so much power and strength to it, unlike ever before. In all the years up to that time, she never really had a strong voice. Pretty as it was, it was rather weak. When I first saw The Dance, I was blown away. Beautiful stuff.

[strandinthewind]

My favorite era of her voice was from '94-'98. Her voice had so much power and strength to it, unlike ever before. In all the years up to that time, she never really had a strong voice. Pretty as it was, it was rather weak. When I first saw The Dance, I was blown away. Beautiful stuff.

I agree - the stuff from those eras, esp. the Enchanted Tour - was stellar.

I just also liked the lithe vocal quality she had in the 70's, which was missing on the Tusk tour.

But, yes, academically, the 1994 - 1998 voice was much better.

[The Tower]

I actually think she is at the top of her game right now.

Not even close! I wouldn't say Stevie is anywhere close to the top of her game at this point.

I think her voice is shot- very bleaty and pinched these days. She refuses to show any range in her live performances.

Stevie was at "the top of her game" in 1981/1982. Those were the days!

[sparky]

I think her voice is shot- very bleaty and pinched these days.

Dude ! You are full of P & V this morning. Have you been hanging around with Dissention ?

[strandinthewind]

Not even close! I wouldn't say Stevie is anywhere close to the top of her game at this point.

I think her voice is shot- very bleaty and pinched these days. She refuses to show any range in her live performances.

Stevie was at "the top of her game" in 1981/1982. Those were the days!

You know I think she refuses on purpose because her voice to me soars in the SHN and, more pointedly, the SG harmonies. But, Rhainnon, Dreams, GDW - I agree and wish she would if she could give a little more of it over and break that one or so octave thing she has going on :shrug:

But - I love her anyway and respect that she does not - but, hey, I can hope!!!!! :cool:

[dissention]

Dude ! You are full of P & V this morning. Have you been hanging around with Dissention ?

Yup, his veins are slowly turning ice cold. Pretty soon, he'll urinate in cubes. :woohoo:

[The Tower]

Dude ! You are full of P & V this morning. Have you been hanging around with Dissention ?

Who, me??? :angel:

Honestly, though- listening to Stevie from the latest shows is sooooo depressing!! Someone needs to sit down with her and find out what the hell is going on with her voice and lack of energy. And puh-leeze!! Twirling around a couple of times during "Stand Back" does not count as energy... :rolleyes:

Yup, his veins are slowly turning ice cold. Pretty soon, he'll urinate in cubes. :woohoo:

Urinating ice cubes can be very stimulating......

[Johnny Stew]

And I don't think they all have merits. Yeah, she could still pull out some amazing harmonies, some amazing lines here and there, but for the most part, her creativity was really zapped for a long time and it showed. One of the reasons I don't like or even listen to Street Angel is because it's such a depressing album. There's nothing but pain in her voice because you can hear in her how much she was suffering and how much it affected her work. Are there songs on it I like? Yes. But do they affect me like her other songs? No.

See, for me that's part of the "journey."
The "dark period" in Stevie's life and career adds more depth and weight to the songs that followed. For me, at least.

I can certainly enjoy them on their own merits, but when taken into context, they're all the more revealing.

I've always felt that Stevie doesn't really need to write a book. Just go back through all of her songs... from 1973 to today... and you have each chapter of her life and experiences.
All the good stuff, all the bad stuff. All the highs and lows. The cringe-worthy moments, and the "By God, maybe this woman IS the 'Queen Of Rock'!" moments.

To retain the analogy of an autobiography... some of the chapters are less interesting than others, but each is important to the story that follows.

I don't either. ;) I just expect consistency. I mean, to go from The Wild Heart to a thing such as Rock A Little was mind-boggling to me, even though I have a new appreciation for that album. Or from the Mirror album, one of my favorites, to Street Angel. Talk about your fall from grace, Stevie. :laugh:

Consistency doesn't mean that every song is going to be fantastic or blow me away, it simple means that an artist should have a bar by which they measure what's quality and what isn't. Stevie's bar must have been pretty low for awhile. Thankfully, she got "it" back or we'd be suffering through Two Kinds of Love Part Deux.

I expect consistency, too. And for some strange reason, I always find that in Stevie's material.
But I think we come at the songs with two very different points of view, or a different set of expectations on a whole, and that's why there's such a marked difference between your opinions and mine.


And the thing is, not everyone has such a rosy view like yours when it comes to music. Sorry, but when I spend my money on a Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nicks, or Lindsey Buckingham album, I'm expecting a certain quality from them. If they aren't up to par, I am going to be majorly let down. That's why I still can't stand some of Stevie's work; there are such wide ranges in quality from album to album. I mean, do you just buy an album from them and go in with no expectations whatsoever? If you say yes, you're a bald-faced liar. :wavey:

No, like I said... "I expect to be bowled over by certain songs, and underwhelmed by others."

Those are my expectations. Oh, and I also expect to enjoy the album more than I enjoy albums by anyone else. And, again, I've never been let down.

I don't think I necessarily have a "rosy" view of things. I think I just tend to be more practical/pragmatic.
Like I said, it's pretty much built in for me that every song isn't going to be an all-time favorite... so I don't expect them to be.

It's inherent that my "bar of quality" is different from others, so I know not to expect everything to meet MY bar of quality every single time. Even if Stevie and Fleetwood Mac are the ones who set that bar, I don't expect it from them with all 12-13 tracks of every single album.
I also don't feel that my opinion of what's "crap," is, or should be, anyone else's.

This doesn't mean I happily tolerate low-rate material just because it says "Stevie Nicks" or "Fleetwood Mac" on the album cover. I do have standards. I also have many artists who I gave up on and lost interest in YEARS ago because their later material didn't live and breathe the way their earlier material had.

Stevie's songs... even "Two Kinds Of Love" and "That Made Me Stronger"... live and breathe for me. Those two aren't "all-time favorites," but they're important to me in the greater picture.

There's a reason I'm still a die-hard fan after nearly 20 years. :)

[dissention]

See, for me that's part of the "journey."
The "dark period" in Stevie's life and career adds more depth and weight to the songs that followed. For me, at least.

Respectfully, some of them are journey's I'd rather not take.

To retain the analogy of an autobiography... some of the chapters are less interesting than others, but each is important to the story that follows.

But it still doesn't make those chapters any good; that's my whole point. And every book, autobiographies included, have chapters better left out of the final copy.

I also don't feel that my opinion of what's "crap," is, or should be, anyone else's.

Me neither, as evidenced by the circles the two of us always seem to run in every other week. ;) :laugh:

This doesn't mean I happily tolerate low-rate material just because it says "Stevie Nicks" or "Fleetwood Mac" on the album cover. I do have standards.

And I'm trying to understand what those standards are. :shrug: You never seem to reveal them, you only defend what I say is crap.

As for the rest, it was all personal opinion, so I really can't argue with it. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Well, with all due respect, you seemingly throw around words like crap , garbage, etc. when most would go, well its okay, but not the best, etc. A good example is Angel - many consider that not to be crap :laugh: There seemingly is no in between with you. It is either great or crap :laugh: But, it is your opinion, blah, blah, yadda, yadda :cool:

[amber]

But it still doesn't make those chapters any good; that's my whole point. And every book, autobiographies included, have chapters better left out of the final copy.




But perhaps if you didn't read those chapters, you wouldn't understand the chapters that came after and you wouldn't have the depth of enjoyment of the chapters before....says the girl who doesn't have Bella Donna, Wild Heart, or RAL... :wavey:

[dissention]

Well, with all due respect, you seemingly throw around words like crap , garbage, etc. when most would go, well its okay, but not the best, etc. A good example is Angel - many consider that not to be crap :laugh: There seemingly is no in between with you. It is either great or crap :laugh: But, it is your opinion, blah, blah, yadda, yadda :cool:

The Second Time is in-between for me. :laugh: Bad music, bad vocal, but the sentiment is good and the song itself is earnest and intimate.

Angel...ugh. LOVE the lyrics, hate the end product. It sounds like a demo and I am truly shocked that it lasted so long in the game !!!!!

The only true garbage from her is to be found on RAL and SA. And a few other songs.

[dissention]

But perhaps if you didn't read those chapters, you wouldn't understand the chapters that came after and you wouldn't have the depth of enjoyment of the chapters before....says the girl who doesn't have Bella Donna, Wild Heart, or RAL... :wavey:

Ever read The Scarlett Letter? :angel: :xoxo:

[amber]

Ever read The Scarlett Letter? :angel: :xoxo:
Yeah, why? course, i read it in highschool, so it's not too fresh...
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

But perhaps if you didn't read those chapters, you wouldn't understand the chapters that came after and you wouldn't have the depth of enjoyment of the chapters before....

And that was my point. :nod:

Any good novel or autobiography is much like life... you can't just skip over the "bad" parts to get to the "good stuff." That's not how it works.
It's all part of the journey.

I tend to look at Stevie's output not as a bunch of random songs, but as an overall experience, with ups and downs, and everything in between. :)

[strandinthewind]

And that was my point. :nod:

Any good novel or autobiography is much like life... you can't just skip over the "bad" parts to get to the "good stuff." That's not how it works.
It's all part of the journey.

I tend to look at Stevie's output not as a bunch of random songs, but as an overall experience, with ups and downs, and everything in between. :)

Some just wanna go directly to the fun, happy chorus and skip the set up altogether :shrug: :cool:

[GypsySorcerer]

I do not know about that, in the last seven years, she has sold somewhere around five millions records (The Dance, Enchanted boxed set, TISL, SYW) :shrug: - that sounds like millions to me :laugh: AND - even if you divide The Dance by three and SYW by two, she is still in the millions :shrug: So , that is still pretty good by most standards.


I know what you mean. I actually meant, though, as a solo artist, she hasn't topped millions in a long time. Most of her sales recently have come through the mass appeal of "Fleetwood Mac." Of course, she is doing very well for her age. I just disagree with Christopher's assessment she's in top form.

[GypsySorcerer]

I think her voice is shot- very bleaty and pinched these days. She refuses to show any range in her live performances.

Stevie was at "the top of her game" in 1981/1982. Those were the days!

I agree. "Beautiful Child" was a vocal highlight recently, and I do like LIB "Rhiannon." But SYW is so monotonous live, it's painful. And she sounded terrible on Silver Springs this tour. No wonder they dropped it.

Vocally, she was much better during the Dance than this tour. :sorry:

[dissention]

Vocally, she was much better during the Dance than this tour. :sorry:

:nod: I LOVED her on The Dance tour. :thumbsup:

As I've said a million times, something about Stevie's voice left her around 2000 and she's never recovered from it. It all went downhill with the TISL. While there are plenty of moments where she shines these days, there's still something missing. It went from being a powerful, strong instrument to being a rather weak tool. I think that she probably just damaged it pretty bad while continuing to tour while sick in '01.

[face of glass]

Yeah, yeah, I said "tomorrow", right? Procrastinator struck again. :rolleyes:
...you are hard headed...
Traditional Finnish qualities. Take 'em or leave 'em. ;)
This whole thing is about comparison. I thought you knew that because you participated and you did just that in your meandering post, in case you did not notice...
No, I did not notice. Please point out where I exactly said something like that, or where you interpreted what I said the way you did.
I never said "IKINW" is more complex than "Storms", I suggested that it is as complex as "Storms" but in its own way.
I never criticized "Storms" in this thread anyway, unless saying that another song might be as complex as "Storms" is an obvious critique and therefore an insult to the winner of this survivor.
...their comparison and opinion differs from you to the point where you apparently are shocked or appalled into rolling your eyes...
What had me rolling my eyes was the context in which you represented the following:
I just do not know how people can say the following:
[lyrics]
which is beautifully orchestrated and sung in THAT voice (earnest, pleading, frail, strong, and so on
IS NOT HEADS AND SHOULDERS ABOVE:
[lyrics]
which is good and has a clever hook and use of horns - but in no way comparable to Storms from a musical or lyrical point of view.
This statement to me seemed to be as if you were saying it as a fact ["I just do not know how people can say the following"]. Now that you've even later underlined that you can objectively prove "Storms" is musically more complex than "IKINW" then I guess you're sticking to your position. I can't change it and I'm not trying to.
But yes, for a moment I lost control there. I was in sheer rage. I ran across the lawn naked and hit my head to a flagpole. Then I came back and let that influence my post. Gerald came in and spoke with far more tact than I did, in spite of sharing similar feelings. That's another reason for me to respect him.
And another thing I was irritated by was Christopher's assessment of "Storms" being a "heavy important song" as opposed to the "fluff" of "I Know I'm Not Wrong". As someone who believes that all human emotions are as equal, worthy, deep and complex as any then I was naturally offended by that.
My belief is that "Baby...One More Time" is as deep as "Stairway To Heaven" (people's understanding of a Grande Rock Epic) or "Storms". I believe that "That's Enough For Me" in its two minutes tells us as much of life as Wagner's "Parsifal". If one piece is lengthier than another it doesn't necessarily mean that it is then of grander importance than the other. Of course "TEFM" lacks the epic qualities of a Wagner monument, but then "Parsifal" lacks the up-to-point qualities in "TEFM"; the sharp attack and the sudden uplifting burst that it has because of its very shortness. "That's Enough For Me" is a random glimpse into the mind, a "flash of emotion" (as Les would put it); it tells me as much of Lindsey as an opera concentrating on the story of his life would (and hasn't he been trying to do something like that anyway, with those Wagnerian leitmotifs and all ;)).
Of course, some are irritated by the fact that I'm comparing a Britney Spears song to a Stevie Nicks song. But then, it isn't all that easy to craft what I call a "perfect pop song". Take a random bunch of those traditional lyrical cliches and combine them into one banal piece of pop; it wouldn't probably work. It takes a lot of vision to make something that works out of those cliches and then put that into a musical framework. Everyone has their own preferences here, of what works for them. Personally I'm not interested in Britney outside "B...OTM" at all. But what I'm trying to say here anyway is that a line like "I must confess, that my loneliness, is killing me now" isn't any more complex than anything that's in "Storms", but that's only when you take these things in their musical context. And that Stevie being frail in "Storms" isn't any less artistically deep than the mild lust that Britney conveys in "B...OTM". This was once again in reply to Christopher's arguments, not to yours Jason. I don't know if you share the same opinions or not. (But then again, the your latest comment on "fun, happy choruses" would hint at that. What if some people start stating that "fun, happy choruses" are shallow and that the "serious" emotions conveyed through music are the ultimate in all art? That's when I will always step up and protest.)
As for Storms being more complex, the layered vocals, the vocal structure itself, the lyrics themselves, the somewhat syncopated style, the soft drumming, LB's (apparently) beautiful arangement, the vocal (all 12 or so layers of them), her complex harmony structure (which I cannot imagine how long it took her to come with that yet people who never sang harmony in thier lives think it just happens ), and the lack of the collegiate band horn section repeating the same hook over and over again all go a long way in expressing yearning, frailty, passion, wanting, and any other purient emotion Storms CLEARLY conveys and all of which make it more complex than IKINW, which I love BTW.
Edward Macan:
"Another potential pitfall of traditional musicology is that while its existing models of musical analysis are quite successful in demonstrating how specific examples of Western art music work on a purely musical basis, they are usually inadequate for a comprehensive analysis of non-Western music or Western popular music. The reason is that these analytical methods tend to focus on those features of the music that the European system of notation can capture with fidelity: harmony, melody, meter and large-scale structure. The timbral and rhythmic subtleties that are a major - often the major - attribute of non-Western musics or Western popular music tend to be ignored, since these musical parameters cannot adequately be conveyed by the European notational system. This state of affairs has led to the frequently heard comparisons of Western art music's 'richness' and 'complexity' with the 'simplicity', even 'banality', of other styles - when, in fact, use of a different analytical system that is not so completely tied to Western art music might lead to a very different set of conclusions."

So yeah. We're speaking of two pieces of Western popular music here, but then how different is your description from the usual accusations of classical music being more complex (and therefore, better) than popular music?
In fact, what you wrote down there is something you can't convey in notation. Sure, you can write stuff like "adagio moderato ridiculementi" down there, but even then that little guiding of the musician is always an interpretative matter.
How would you get me convinced here? Take "Storms" and "I Know I'm Not Wrong" to a musicologist, have him/her analyse the tracks' contents both traditionally and then taking those timbral & rhythmic subtleties into account and bring those results to me. Because to me what you wrote down is no musicological analysis, it's pure fan talk, just like what I did with "IKINW", isn't it? ;)
Things like "soft drumming" and "beautiful arrangement" are certainly subjective, even the former because the definitions of 'soft' and 'hard' vary from person to person.
Just as subjective is the statement of "Storms" expressing qualities of "yearning, frailty, passion, wanting" etc. That's something we fans once again pick upon when we have listened to a certain song for some time. Sometimes we might notice those qualities immediately (due to our own experiences), but how about an average listener? He/she might think it's just a sad song, that's all. And we certainly can guess that an academic wouldn't bring those possible existing qualities up when giving a musicological analysis of "Storms" to us.
YOu know all of this reminds me of Carne's whole "I can say objectively this song is better than that and its not a subjective opinion" argument about a year and a half ago Can something on its face objectively be muscially moew complex and even better I say yes, and Storms is. So sue me
Ah, so Carne actually won an argument back then and you're following his footsteps here. :nod:

Alright, I give in. "Storms" is more complex. In professional terms. After all, there's a real drummer in there, and other real musicians who have music as their full-time jobs, instead of Lindsey's amateurish playing on "IKINW". And yeah, I suppose even me, as a musically untrained person, can say "Storms" has a more complex harmony than "IKINW". The latter is what a musicologist could prove us too, even though the chord structures in both songs might have been the usual to begin with (excuse me if I'm wrong here, I'm just an oik).

But then this seems to be all about professionalism to you Jason. That if something is professionally done and is therefore executed in a more complex way than something by a bunch of amateurs playing in a garage, then I guess it is preferable to you (provided that you don't have an emotional connection to any of the latter).

Lindsey went for his own version of punk music on Tusk. That didn't involve collective band-playing. The rest of Fleetwood Mac were professionals at that point, they clearly knew how to make the most out of their playing skills that are limited, but still subtle (when they want them to be subtle, that is). Punk itself was about amateurism, about abandoning the whole rock star myth of the '70s, at first that involved getting rid of any unnecessary finesse and "real musician posturing". That was one reason for Lindsey to perform the rhythm tracks on Tusk himself (or, as Gerald once pointed out, 'educating' Mick and John so that they wouldn't play like they had played before).
This particular brand of amateurism was especially appropriate with expressing the naivety (or childishness) and the sense of freedom that these musicians felt, after having realized that one doesn't have to practice pentatonic scales on a guitar for years in order to make music.
Yet a few people here sometimes claim that it was Lindsey's ego-a-talkin' when he chose to record his tracks on Tusk on his own. :rolleyes:

Since I believe that "I Know I'm Not Wrong" is about rediscovering one's inner child, finding that all-important naivety that at least I look for in life, then it certainly would be inappropriate for me if Mick and John came in and threw their subtle chops on the album version, or Christine added one of her fine rhythmic figures in.
The intentional clumsiness (because it sounds clumsy, even though it's played to a click track) of the cardboard box drumming only underlines the bottom emotions that he wants to communicate to us.
He chose to use minimal lyrics as is typical of his tracks on the album, also. Why would an inner child need such fine words and frills and stuff? Even if he had as fine a lyrical skill as Stevie (which he doesn't), I still daresay that he wouldn't have added any more lyrics to the whole thing.
And I mean, why should he have? Everything else he needs to add comes through the music as well.
I also fail to see how repeating a hook makes a song automatically less complex. After all, "I Know I'm Not Wrong" is only three minutes long, unlike "Storms" (which some could describe as meandering, also).
Why would people want to get back to a childish state of mind anyway? Possibly because they've been hurt badly or because they feel they've done something wrong. That's something that the insistency of "IKINW" tries to escape from, just like "Storms" is escapism in itself.
In the case of "I Know I'm Not Wrong", the notes, chords and rhythms are fairly simple but the emotions that come through the music are pretty complex. "That's enough for me". :)
I think inferior vs. superior arguments should be restrcited to those who can argue then solely from an objective point of view because the minute people start saying "I like it better" it becomes subjective and then everyone is correct IMO
I also don't think either of us has shown more objectivity than the other here. My problem was not your preference of "Storms" over "IKINW", my problem was that you said it's more complex than "IKINW" without explaining that you meant complexity in professionalism.
I also think it is very interesting that NONE of the vocal IKINW people can even congratulate Stevie on the victory...
Of course it seems like I'm trying to patch a hole when half of the wall has been torn down. But my sincere congratulations to "Storms" for its victory. It's not in my holy 12 of the album, but a worthy, personal track it is all the same. I do not congratulate Stevie Nicks though, I congratulate the Fleetwood Mac that made Tusk for this. To me this was about tracks, not songs. ;)
Now Now - sour grapes are never pretty - even if they are Finnish.
Well we can always go to the FM Drama board and start the "Has the Finnish butthead at last totally lost it?" thread. ;)

[face of glass]

Gaius and I have had this discussion before, and there are times when I think experimentalism (is that a word?!) benefits the song, and brings it to even higher levels of greatness.
And then there are times when I think hitting a box of tissues is done just to do something "different," and doesn't aid the song itself in any way.
I guess one thing that still humours me a little here is that I don't even find Lindsey's Tusk material all that experimental. What I write now is the longer version (as usual ;)) of what David pointed out in the "Master Of Tusk" thread anyway.

Look at what was released in the year of Tusk and in the year preceding it. In 1978 we had Suicide's debut album which mainly consisted of cheap drum machine beats and keyboard drones. On the longest cut of the album, "Frankie Teardrop", Alan Vega gives us a bleak story of an industrial worker. In the middle of it he lets out two agonizing screams that symbolize Frankie killing his wife and himself. They are distorted and echoed to such a point that anyone would feel uncomfortable. After those screams the track descends into an aural hell where industrial noises collide with more ethereal ones.
Or take Pere Ubu's The Modern Dance, it opens with a feedback drone over which we get a traditional Chuck Berry riff, but also a squealing synthesizer and a bleating, totally demented vocal.

Looking into the United Kingdom of 1979, the closing track of Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures is "I Remember Nothing"; built on a repetitive drum beat, a scratchy guitar, keyboard drones and various synthesized noises, over which Ian Curtis sings lyrics like "violent, more violent/his hand cracks the chair/moves on reaction/then slumps in despair".
Public Image Ltd's "Careering" features modulated Oberheim synthesizer noises on top of a repetitive dub bass line and synth-drum crashes. Not forgetting John Lydon's wails (which certainly didn't resemble his Sex Pistols voice that much anymore): "I've been careering/across the border/is this living/both sides of the river/there is bacteria/armoured machinery mangled".
Or "A Touching Display" from Wire's 154 album that features hellish synthesizer, bass and guitar feedback for seven minutes while one of the coldest vocals known to man ruminates over a love affair gone bad (but again, it's the context that makes those lyrics perverted).
No, these albums didn't sell that much initially but some of them managed respectful chart positions in the bands' homelands (better than OOTC in USA or UK, anyway). And we are speaking of material that continues to inspire musicians to this day, and still attract new listeners in a way similar to Tusk, and perhaps in similar amounts to Tusk (after the initial burst of sales and hype died away, I mean).

Of course, there are a few more accessible tracks on these albums, but even then to me they do not appear to be any more inaccessible than Lindsey's most esoteric Tusk material. :shrug:
And even then, I do not think the examples I gave are all that experimental. I mean, there's no intentional freakish noise all over the place like with Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle or the New York noise artists of the time. There's vocal tracks, there's good songwriting within traditional song structures, but the tracks in general are disturbing expressions directly from the human psyche.

But then I guess David was right with that description of his about the American mainstream of the time. Lindsey didn't even have to adopt the nihilism, inherent cynicism and coldness of the general post-punk environment (Tony Wilson's description: punk was about saying "F*ck you", post-punk was about saying "I'm f*cked") that had arrived to the underground after the first blast of punkish rage. A band like Talking Heads was generally approved of, though, they had the experimentalism of post-punk but lacked the "self-destructive" tendencies. And so does Lindsey's Tusk material; the overall atmosphere is nowhere near as off-putting as the underground acts could have it.
So to me it isn't really surprising that some people who have grown up with what's been played on the American radio for the last 30 years would find Lindsey's Tusk contributions off-putting and even experimental for the sake of being experimental. To be sure, they may have started to appreciate this material over time, but then that's a process that I think mainly fans have really gone through.

Personally I suppose some of these people (not necessarily you, Johnny) are not fond of the far more direct emotional communication that punk and new wave in general offered, as opposed to the layered, more virtuoso and professional approach of the rest of the '70s.
Because that is what Lindsey took as his ideological guideline for his tracks, yet I don't think the results are any less complex or sophisticated (or even worse!) than what the earlier professionalism of the '70s had given to us.

And still Johnny, I must point out that you're still thinking of Lindsey in terms of songs. While I find that completely understandable, I can't do that myself. To me, when it comes to Buckingham and Nicks it's not as much as what they write than how they present what they write to me. I agree partly with that short snippet from Head Heritage's review on Tusk that I quoted in this thread; I do not find Stevie a tremendously original lyricist. It's all about the way she sings those things to me, the way how she conveys the life she's lived through her voice and makes me understand her, even though I wouldn't know every detail of everything she's been through.
And Lindsey, what he lacks vocally and lyrically, he conveys through the means of instruments. I do not need songs myself when an aural collage can express powerful emotions all in itself. I actually believe that he doesn't necessarily always start studio work on a song that he's written beforehand; he might come up with a song structure of sorts in the studio around some experiment that he's been working on.

Lindsey's and Stevie's vulnerable sides are once again audible on Tusk, maybe the most audible they have ever been. And at its darkest, in spite of being influenced by it, the album never gives in to the pessimism of the underground of the time. Which is all fine and good. The war is over, remember? ;)

[strandinthewind]

My Lord - you are so five minutes ago :laugh:

BTW - in college and in a bold and clearly ambitious move, I auditioned for the part of Amfortas in Parsifal. I was rejected based on both objective and subjective analysis - and they were correct as I was clearly never meant for that role!!!!!!!! :cool:

But, the thought of being carried in nude on a litter on the way to bathe my wounds was too much to resist :laugh:

AND - solely because they rejected me and therefore had no talent :laugh: :rolleyes: - the production never took off!!!!! Such is life :laugh:

[face of glass]

My Lord - you are so five minutes ago :laugh:
You know I love you and your posts Jason, I'm just some nutcase far away. It's all ego-ridden stuff, don't take it too seriously. :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

You know I love you and your posts Jason, I'm just some nutcase far away. It's all ego-ridden stuff, don't take it too seriously. :xoxo:

I know - AND you are just one loon talking to another - AND if Dissention joins in - it is a trio of loons, which should be enough for lunatic conversation by we three loons of the Ledge!!!!! :woohoo: :lol:

[amber]

So to me it isn't really surprising that some people who have grown up with what's been played on the American radio for the last 30 years
Personally I suppose some of these people (not necessarily you, Johnny) are not fond of the far more direct emotional communication that punk and new wave in general offered, as opposed to the layered, more virtuoso and professional approach of the rest of the '70s.;)
I am one of these people, although I don't think it really applies to Lindsey's Tusk tracks as much - I think punk and new wave was not just more direct, but also often "sounded crappy" and "didn't make me happy" and it's really as simple as that. I just don't like to listen to things that aren't melodic, are (sometimes) barely rhythmic, and that talk about dark, dark, nasty things that make me upset or sad. It's really that simple, to me. It's like, also, I tend not to prefer slow atonal things....

The rest of your post was well thought out and well written and gave me something to think about...even though it was so five minutes ago.. :laugh:
AMber

[shackin'up]

I guess one thing that still humours me a little here is that I don't even find Lindsey's Tusk material all that experimental. What I write now is the longer version (as usual ;)) of what David pointed out in the "Master Of Tusk" thread anyway.

Look at what was released in the year of Tusk and in the year preceding it. In 1978 we had Suicide's debut album which mainly consisted of cheap drum machine beats and keyboard drones. On the longest cut of the album, "Frankie Teardrop", Alan Vega gives us a bleak story of an industrial worker. In the middle of it he lets out two agonizing screams that symbolize Frankie killing his wife and himself. They are distorted and echoed to such a point that anyone would feel uncomfortable. After those screams the track descends into an aural hell where industrial noises collide with more ethereal ones.
Or take Pere Ubu's The Modern Dance, it opens with a feedback drone over which we get a traditional Chuck Berry riff, but also a squealing synthesizer and a bleating, totally demented vocal.

Looking into the United Kingdom of 1979, the closing track of Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures is "I Remember Nothing"; built on a repetitive drum beat, a scratchy guitar, keyboard drones and various synthesized noises, over which Ian Curtis sings lyrics like "violent, more violent/his hand cracks the chair/moves on reaction/then slumps in despair".
Public Image Ltd's "Careering" features modulated Oberheim synthesizer noises on top of a repetitive dub bass line and synth-drum crashes. Not forgetting John Lydon's wails (which certainly didn't resemble his Sex Pistols voice that much anymore): "I've been careering/across the border/is this living/both sides of the river/there is bacteria/armoured machinery mangled".
Or "A Touching Display" from Wire's 154 album that features hellish synthesizer, bass and guitar feedback for seven minutes while one of the coldest vocals known to man ruminates over a love affair gone bad (but again, it's the context that makes those lyrics perverted).
No, these albums didn't sell that much initially but some of them managed respectful chart positions in the bands' homelands (better than OOTC in USA or UK, anyway). And we are speaking of material that continues to inspire musicians to this day, and still attract new listeners in a way similar to Tusk, and perhaps in similar amounts to Tusk (after the initial burst of sales and hype died away, I mean).

Of course, there are a few more accessible tracks on these albums, but even then to me they do not appear to be any more inaccessible than Lindsey's most esoteric Tusk material. :shrug:
And even then, I do not think the examples I gave are all that experimental. I mean, there's no intentional freakish noise all over the place like with Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle or the New York noise artists of the time. There's vocal tracks, there's good songwriting within traditional song structures, but the tracks in general are disturbing expressions directly from the human psyche.

But then I guess David was right with that description of his about the American mainstream of the time. Lindsey didn't even have to adopt the nihilism, inherent cynicism and coldness of the general post-punk environment (Tony Wilson's description: punk was about saying "F*ck you", post-punk was about saying "I'm f*cked") that had arrived to the underground after the first blast of punkish rage. A band like Talking Heads was generally approved of, though, they had the experimentalism of post-punk but lacked the "self-destructive" tendencies. And so does Lindsey's Tusk material; the overall atmosphere is nowhere near as off-putting as the underground acts could have it.
So to me it isn't really surprising that some people who have grown up with what's been played on the American radio for the last 30 years would find Lindsey's Tusk contributions off-putting and even experimental for the sake of being experimental. To be sure, they may have started to appreciate this material over time, but then that's a process that I think mainly fans have really gone through.

Personally I suppose some of these people (not necessarily you, Johnny) are not fond of the far more direct emotional communication that punk and new wave in general offered, as opposed to the layered, more virtuoso and professional approach of the rest of the '70s.
Because that is what Lindsey took as his ideological guideline for his tracks, yet I don't think the results are any less complex or sophisticated (or even worse!) than what the earlier professionalism of the '70s had given to us.

And still Johnny, I must point out that you're still thinking of Lindsey in terms of songs. While I find that completely understandable, I can't do that myself. To me, when it comes to Buckingham and Nicks it's not as much as what they write than how they present what they write to me. I agree partly with that short snippet from Head Heritage's review on Tusk that I quoted in this thread; I do not find Stevie a tremendously original lyricist. It's all about the way she sings those things to me, the way how she conveys the life she's lived through her voice and makes me understand her, even though I wouldn't know every detail of everything she's been through.
And Lindsey, what he lacks vocally and lyrically, he conveys through the means of instruments. I do not need songs myself when an aural collage can express powerful emotions all in itself. I actually believe that he doesn't necessarily always start studio work on a song that he's written beforehand; he might come up with a song structure of sorts in the studio around some experiment that he's been working on.

I'd say poor the man a Jack and say he's right. :nod: :p

Lindsey's and Stevie's vulnerable sides are once again audible on Tusk, maybe the most audible they have ever been. And at its darkest, in spite of being influenced by it, the album never gives in to the pessimism of the underground of the time.

Cheers, mate. This is touching the heart of what I hear when i'm enjoying Tusk.

[Mari]

I'm not going to re-quote everything that Gerald just did,
just :xoxo: to Gaius :D

[cliffdweller]

Pere Ubu
Joy Division
Public Image Ltd
Wire
Talking Heads

Thank you for mentioning these bands. They are some of my favorites. And puttting Lindsey Buckingham next to them does add perspective in the sense that he's no mere pop star, he's an experimental genius much akin to them. Add his studio genius to his creative music-making artistry and you have a truly unstoppable musician who is not only a jack-of-all-trades, but a MASTER at his musical endeavors. Tusk is proof of that. Long live Tusk!