Something I have long believed, now being confirmed

[irishgrl]

I saw this headline today on Yahoo News: Arab TV exec states Muslims are responsible for Majority of Terrorism worldwide (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=25&u=/ap/20040904/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_school_seizure_2)

Siege Prompts Self-Criticism in Arab Media
Sat Sep 4, 9:23 AM ET
By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt - Muslims worldwide are the main perpetrators of terrorism, a humiliating and painful truth that must be acknowledged, a prominent Arab writer and television executive wrote Saturday, as Middle East media and officials expressed horror at the bloody rebel siege of a Russian school.

**********************
As I note the news around the world, it is a truth that everywhere you have battle, bloodshed and strife, you have Muslims. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, Phillipines, Israel, Iraq, Iran.......Radical Muslims to be sure, but Muslims nonetheless. Now, an Arab writer and tv exec has come out and bravely said this very thing. While these radicals represent a fraction of the whole, why is it that the Muslim community doesnt do more to curtail their activities? There are huge sums of money being channeled to the terrorist cels via wealthy contributions from governments, and in some cases private individuals as a means to buy off these terrorists and hopefully allow them to direct their dastardly activities elsewhere. Muslims say that the Koran does not condone killing of innocents, but yet, it is happening and these radicals point to the Koran as their justification, saying that they are fighting a holy war, or jihad. What usually follows then, is a debate over just what constitutes a holy war, and the proper definition of prisoners of war, and what to do with them. For a look at two sides of the argument: Al Qaeda v. Koran (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol200408250840.asp) and Using the Koran to justify beheaddings (http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200408130853.asp) both links are from the National Review Online, a hardline conservative website....(btw, I am a hardcore Democrat)

Because no one within the Muslim community will step up and stop these radicals, it is left to the world at large to counteract them, and I am afraid I forsee the Biblical Armageddon coming to pass....

[irishgrl]

my point is, everywhere there is warfare, there are Muslims.
Muslims occupy an area, and then cause strife because they want to have an independent Muslim state where ever they are...do you remember Pakistan?
That was once part of India, but the Muslims occupied it, and began insisting on their own state. Same thing in Chechneya and Israel.....This is a pattern of establishing little pockets of Muslim countries/states inside of larger countries/states...and yes, there is battle on both sides, but the history goes back centuries and I have found that over the course of time, the Muslims are more often the aggressors, and only now, due to global news, are we seeing what is happening. Unfortunately, as in the case in Bosnia, it was Milosivec's (sp?) turn to retaliate...and the world was aghast. When you do a search for Croatia or Serbia, you get a different picture of what happened. Another group that has suffered at the hands of the Muslims is the Kurds in Turkey.
So, I suspect in Russia with the Chechneyans, there has been much back and forth, but I sympathize with Russia.

[tommer]

Yes this may be true but it's not taking into consideration what causes groups to carry out terrorist activities.
this is BY FAR the most STUPID and APPALLING statement i ever read on these boards EVER.
you really made my blood boil, is there any kind of thinking mechanism which seperates your fingers from the keyboard AT ALL, or you just barf whatever's that pops up? what do you mean by "causes"?? is this some kind of a pavlovian reaction of being forced to explode civilians when you're politically dissatisfied that we have to "take into consuderation" i wonder? WHAT ON EARTH CAN JUSTIFY those hundreds of butchered russian kids? nothing justifies the dangers lurking on every bus station and resturaunt in my country, nor the lives of 9.11's victims and those australians who lost their lives in Bali in 2002.
terror can NOT be justified by ANY reason.

[tommer]

Oh and you never make my blood boil. I never said it was justified, I think it is appaling. I was implying that people don't consider acts commited by governments against people to be terrorism. If it's individuals or groups then its counts as terrorism. When governments terrorise people it doesn't count, therefore this calculation is biased.
yes darling. that's right. there are goverments and other political organizations which are responsible for dealing conflicts. when those fail, there are armies. under no circumstances can terrorist groups or individuals should be allowed to take action.

[tommer]

The Balinese victims never get a mention and this just typifies what I hate about this country so don't expect me to get blindly patriotic.
i'm not expecting any patriotism. but since i'm hopeless in turning to the reasonable side, i tried the humane sentiment (and in vain as just been witnessed).

[tommer]

Some governments apparently are forced to explode civilians, often kids who are throwing stones in response to being imprisoned as a way of life. Hmmmm. We'll let this pass and just argue that a race of people are terrorist and that another is a race of victims. As wrong of an approach as this is, there is no denying that these people have been pushed to the limit, they don't just respond because it's Saturday and they're bored. And once againn, don't tell me that I'm endorsing it, I'm simply trying to look at the root of the problem.
excuse me, but understanding the reasoning behind it IS IN FACT A JUSTIFICATION.
if people are "pushed to their limits" and need a new and different political solution they must reach out to their politicians for aid, not blow up innocent children. it has nothing to do with the israeli-palestinian problem or any other conflict, it's just a matter of basic civility and nothing more.

[tommer]

Oh that is a load of ****.
But governments can blow up these innocent child? When you live under the rule of a government that shows no civility to your people, how do just accept that? It's human nature to respond and try for a better life.
no you don't. see? that's just a part of your western/christian/democratic way of thinking, when in fact if you were a North Korean or a Libyan, you would have been taught to think otherwise.
please Lux, go to sleep now, i know it's very late in australia, and your brain cell sure seems to be needing its rest.

[tommer]

Well that certainly is worthy of a 'f*ck you'. And to think I'm listening to that song you sent me in the name of making me feel better.

You're certainly done with if your argument is now that the other person must have low brain cell capacity. I'm not high and I'm thinking clearly thankyou. I suggest that if either of us is incapable of dicussing this reasonably, it would be the pothead amongst us.
i didn't suggest you were high, but if i can beat you in such an easy argument while I'M high and your'e "thinking clearly" what can it teach us?

ps
please do not reach out for me next time when you try taking your own life.
success is just a step away.

[tommer]

well....
(on second thought, some things are better left unsaid)
nevermind.
thank you.

[David]

I am afraid I forsee the Biblical Armageddon coming to pass....
Happy Rapture!

[tommer]

ok, it is now obviously clear that (despite living in the world's most terrorized country for 32 years or so) i do know nothing about it, so i guess i'm gonna have to retreat at this point. i think i've already made myself look stupid enough.

[irishgrl]

This is news to me Irish girl, I wasn't aware that the Orangemen were Muslim.

dont you mean the IRA? after all, arent they considered terrorists? Actually, I sympathise with their plight, because they are trying to eject the English interlopers. which is why your comment doesnt apply. In every case I mentioned, the Muslims were the interlopers. They came to an area, occupied it, grew in numbers, and then agitated for statehood, or independence. The Muslims are incapable of living peaceably with their neighbors anywhere because they see any non-Muslims as infidels, and have no compunction about killing them. in fact, some even think they are racking up good points for their afterlife by styling what they are doing a holy war.

No, I stand by my original statement: the Muslims are the cause of strife and bloodshed around the globe. and I believe that the Arab tv exec who had the guts to actually say it out loud should be applauded. I am sure he is now considered a traitor by his own countrymen...

ok, it is now obviously clear that (despite living in the world's most terrorized country for 32 years or so)
Actually Tommer, the Irish have you beat.....but, I AM an Israeli sympathizer.

[gldstwmn]

No, I stand by my original statement: the Muslims are the cause of strife and bloodshed around the globe.

So what's the answer? Genocide? :confused: Some of the "Muslims" who flew planes into the WTC's were notorious party boys who indulged in strippers and cocaine.
What about the Basque Separatists? The Khmer Rouge? The Red Brigade? Sendero Luminoso?

[EnchantedSLN]

The Muslims are incapable of living peaceably with their neighbors anywhere because they see any non-Muslims as infidels, and have no compunction about killing them.

There are Muslims all over the world who live in peace in their communities and would never kill anyone based on the way some of their peers interpret the Qur'an. Yes, Muslim groups are responsible for a lot of terrorism across the globe, but be very careful not to demonize all Muslims with such a reactionary blanket statement.

[irishgrl]

Some of the "Muslims" who flew planes into the WTC's were notorious party boys who indulged in strippers and cocaine.

Golddust: I dont know what the answer is, I am just afraid that in the end, we are going see a HUGE culture clash that may well be the prophesied Armageddon.....btw: those "party boys" violated several of the Tenants of Islam by indulging in drugs/alcohol and their dealings with unclean women! Im sure their reward is NOT going to be what they had hoped for~

EnchantedSLN: I said in my original statement that it is the Radical element that is doing the actual terrorism, but I also hold the rest of the Muslim community responsible because they arent doing anything to stop their own. They will decry the radical's actions publicly, but privately, many are channeling HUGE sums of money to these monsters. Lets face it, without these contributions, the radicals would not be able to do what they are doing! it takes LOTS of $$ to carry off the type of operations such as 9/11 and others....so, if the moderate Muslims dont wish to be tarred with the same brush, maybe they should stand up to these radicals, and the hardline clerics and realize that they have to share the world with the rest of us.

[gldstwmn]

. They will decry the radical's actions publicly, but privately, many are channeling HUGE sums of money to these monsters. Lets face it, without these contributions, the radicals would not be able to do what they are doing! it takes LOTS of $$ to carry off the type of operations such as 9/11 and others.

Now you're on to something. :nod: Who's giving them the money? It ain't small donations. Follow the money.
With respect ot 9/11, what occured on the surface would seem to indicate radical muslims but the deeper wade into those waters, the more you will find certain factions of the Saudi government and royal family and their connections to the NeoCons in our own government.
Why did Bush redact 27 pages of the 9/11 commission report that dealt with the Saudis? You'll find the answer in the thread I posted about Senator Graham's book.

[irishgrl]

Well, now, I have known for some time that the Saudi Royal family has been paying off the terrorists in exchange for letting things be in Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is very vulnerable. In Saudi Arabia, they are seen as part of the problem because they make deals with Westerners, especially the US which many Arabs see as evil. Therefore, the Saudi Royals pay the terrorists large amounts of money with the agreement that they will not act against the House of Saud. Not only that, but there are other wealthy sympathizers who give large amounts of $$ to wage war against the infidels. PUBLICLY, the Arab world says that the terrorism is bad, but PRIVATELY, it is a different story. This is part of my issue with the rest of the Muslim community: I think they need to play a bigger role in stopping their own criminals. Otherwise, it appears to me as though they condone these acts of terrorism. If they sit by and do nothing, even though they proclaim the acts as evil, then their words
are hollow and false. And to me, they are just as bad as the terrorists themselves. And funding these terrorists is EVIL.

Also, I have heard that part of the cause of 9/11 resides in the White House. This would not surprise me in the least. I think Dumbya is capable of a LOT.

[tommer]

When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)


how often would you find such statements in the bible or the new testament?

[Mari]

easy.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com

Not that I agree with everything said on that site, but the point is: if you look hard enough, you can find quotes just about anything good or bad in most holy books.

[wondergirl9847]

ALL blacks commit crimes and are on welfare.

ALL white people are greedy and shallow.

ALL Jews like discounts on their merchandise.

ALL Hispanics listen to only Tejano music.

Gimme a break.

[EnchantedSLN]

[COLOR=Navy]When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

Also from the Qur'an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion.
2:256

Do not let the injustice of others lead you into injustice.
5:8

[Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you] but begin no hostilities. Allah loveth not aggressors.
2:190

Do not destroy yourselves; surely, God is most gracious to you.
4:29

Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians, and Sabians--any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness-- shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear....
2:52

Every religion's holy book has parts that are selectively ignored and/or attributed to the social/political contexts of the historical period they were written in or bias of the writer. I.e. in Christianity you don't still stone people and sell your children into slavery or persecute Pagans. Not every Muslim accepts the parts of the Qur'an you quoted just as not every Christian accepts all parts of the Bible. Strict adherance to and belief in everything in the Qur'an is not required for one to be a Muslim, and in fact, there are plenty who dismiss a great deal of what's in the Qur'an.

Mari dug up some good examples of comparable verses in the Bible.

Also, a triviality, but "holy war" is one of multiple translations of "jihad" (and incidentally the media's favorite.) Some scholars interpret it as "struggle in the name of Allah," which does not necessarily mean war in the combat sense.

[GODDESS6]

There are Muslims all over the world who live in peace in their communities and would never kill anyone based on the way some of their peers interpret the Qur'an. Yes, Muslim groups are responsible for a lot of terrorism across the globe, but be very careful not to demonize all Muslims with such a reactionary blanket statement.

very well said tiff!!!~ :thumbsup:

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

[GODDESS6]

easy.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com

Not that I agree with everything said on that site, but the point is: if you look hard enough, you can find quotes just about anything good or bad in most holy books.


etcetera etcetera... I was just doing a google, when this turned up:
http://www.evilbible.com
this site was very interesting 2 me, thanx 4 the link~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

[dissention]

ALL blacks commit crimes and are on welfare.

ALL white people are greedy and shallow.

ALL Jews like discounts on their merchandise.

ALL Hispanics listen to only Tejano music.

Gimme a break.

And...

ALL people from Massachusetts are overtaxed assholes who will gladly rip someone a new asshole if they're challenged on anything.

I'm living proof. :laugh: :wavey:

[gldstwmn]

Well, now, I have known for some time that the Saudi Royal family has been paying off the terrorists in exchange for letting things be in Saudi Arabia. The house of Saud is very vulnerable. In Saudi Arabia, they are seen as part of the problem because they make deals with Westerners, especially the US which many Arabs see as evil. Therefore, the Saudi Royals pay the terrorists large amounts of money with the agreement that they will not act against the House of Saud. Not only that, but there are other wealthy sympathizers who give large amounts of $$ to wage war against the infidels. PUBLICLY, the Arab world says that the terrorism is bad, but PRIVATELY, it is a different story. This is part of my issue with the rest of the Muslim community: I think they need to play a bigger role in stopping their own criminals. Otherwise, it appears to me as though they condone these acts of terrorism. If they sit by and do nothing, even though they proclaim the acts as evil, then their words
are hollow and false. And to me, they are just as bad as the terrorists themselves. And funding these terrorists is EVIL.


The words "Arab" and "Muslim" are not mutually exclusive. Only about 12% of Muslim are Arabs.

[irishgrl]

Gold Dust:
I am not sure why you think I needed reminding of that, I was giving just ONE example of where the terrorists get their money. Maybe only 12% of the Muslims are Arab, but the VAST MAJORITY (if not ALL) of the Arabs are Muslim. And the Saudi Royal family pays the terrorists to leave them alone so they can continue their tenuous rule. Most Saudis deplore the Sauds having ANYTHING to do with Westerners, especially the US which they believe is helping Israel. Again, this is just ONE source of terrorist funding, there are also wealthy sympathisers, as I mentioned before. Also, Osama bin Laden is independently wealthy and we all know where HIS $$$ is going....

[irishgrl]

in my first post, I listed two links which debate this very issue (the Koran and its stance on jihad/prisoners) Please go back and take a look at them. And, in spite of what the Koran says about peace, etc, Mohammed himself killed women and elderly who got in his way. There is a HUGE difference between Mohammed the Prophet and his example and Jesus Christ (Messiah for some) and HIS example. Jesus led a blameless life. NO WHERE will you find Jesus advocating any kind of war or strife or struggle. NOSIR. in EVERY instance, Jesus advocates turning the other cheek, rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and ultimately, dying to redeem the sins of the world. The entire message of the New Testament is that the old eye for an eye mentality is finished. The new message is to Love your neighbor. HUGE difference from a religion that condones conversion by force.

And another thing: I am most assuredly NOT PC here. My firm belief is that these radicals are the new face of Islam because the Moderates, in their refusal to do anything about the atrocities commited have abdicated their responsibility. Only another Muslim can reason with these radicals, they sure as HELL are NOT going to listen to Westerners. The only way this will stop is if some brave Muslim leader emerges who exposes the radicals as the monsters they are, and puts a STOP to the funding........until that time, we are all in for more ugliness.

[EnchantedSLN]

Didnt anyone read my original links?

I did, and I still think some of your comments are terribly ignorant.

Here are a few more links.

http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://www.al-islam.com/eEvent.asp#1
http://www.mpfweb.org/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism_verses1.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

There ARE prominent figures in the Muslim community speaking out against terrorism. Should there be more? Yes. This still does not validify sweeping generalizations about all Muslims or make Muslims who have nothing to do with terrorist activities responsible for them.

[irishgrl]

Muslims who stand by and do nothing are just as culpable as Muslims who engage in terrorism. Because by their silence the Moderates are by extension condoning such activities. You dont have to agree with me. It makes no difference, BUT: the terrorism will continue until the Moderates take a stand, and Until they do, I hold ALL of them responsible. And: I am not ignorant. I am just fed up. I have seen DECADES of this sort of thing, unlike you. I am at least 20 yrs older than you so I know that silence is one of the biggest accomodators of this sort of crap. If you say nothing, the garbage goes on, and gets worse. Also: this is more of the same sort of agitation that Muslims have engaged in (tho in a less effective scale) for centuries. Please dont expect me to show any consideration for this group. At least Christians have the ability to recognize their past evils such as the Inquisition, and the Salem Witch hunts and even to some extent the Crusades....

I have no problem being the ONLY person on this board who feels this way (or the only one with the GUTS to say so) I think what the Muslim Radicals are doing around the World STINKS. From Chechneya to Bosnia to Phillipines to Iraq, to Iran to Palestine, to NY City, to Israel, and on and on and on.
Go ahead and try to sugar coat it. the fact remains, the worlds HOT SPOTs are occupied by Muslims who refuse to peacefully coexist with their neighbors, or accept the fact that the World has evolved beyond the Golden Age of the Ottoman Empire.

[Sorcerer386]

In every case I mentioned, the Muslims were the interlopers. They came to an area, occupied it, grew in numbers, and then agitated for statehood, or independence. The Muslims are incapable of living peaceably with their neighbors anywhere because they see any non-Muslims as infidels, and have no compunction about killing them. in fact, some even think they are racking up good points for their afterlife by styling what they are doing a holy war.


My goodness, this sounds so familiar...I wonder where I've heard it before. Wait, isn't that how our great nation was founded? Yes yes, Christianity doesn't have the purist history record either. In fact, I do believe I remember it was the Christian church that originally said in the Crusades that anyone dying in battle will immediately go to Heaven. By the way, I'm not a Muslim.

And people wonder why I am so against religion in schools. Just look at what one discussion has done here...

[irishgrl]

Islam allows the killing of prisoners if... (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/776153/posts)
this is just one example, more to follow...

[irishgrl]

I am a FIRM believer in separation between Church and State. I am not advocating any Christian Religion because I know they have their issues too.
BUT: what I AM saying is: around the world any hotspot you can think of, there are Muslims. It is a FACT. It is UNDENIABLE. It may also be politically incorrect to say so but that's never stopped me. Sorry. Im old enuff to know that this sort of thing is not going to stop until some POWERFULL person/country steps up and stops it. You can say "bigot" all you want, but I am not the one bombing innocents, or taking prisoners, or using ill gotten $$$ to further a corrupt agenda. Sorry. you need to direct your ire elsewhere.

[Vianna]

This thread is a good example of why I have no use for organized religion of any kind whatsoever.

None of the religions is innocent of killing those not like themselves.

I happen to think Christianity has one of the worst records there is.

Crusades: slaughter of both Muslims and Jews

Charlemagne: forced Saxons to be Christians at swordpoint

Let's not forget the Inquisition

Reformation and assorted religious wars thereafter for about 125 years cost hundreds of lives

Queen Mary of England-known as Bloody Mary: "The only good end for a Protestant is burning" (since he is going to burn anyway in hell, see)

Conversion of the Native Americans in the New World

The Catholic-Protestant war in Ireland..

The Holocaust-the majority of Christians sat by and did nothing including the Pope

At least one branch of my family was sent to America- "transportation" they called it- for being Methodist instead of Anglican..

I could go on..

The Muslims have done their share too-yes, they have holy war, but they don't deny it at least or say they love everyone..I am no religion and will never be but I can't see blaming just one religion for all the terror in the world..

[heyjupiter678]

This thread is a good example of why I have no use for organized religion of any kind whatsoever.
I couldn't agree more. Excellent post.

[tommer]

I couldn't agree more. Excellent post.
i agree. definetly.

but then again vianna, those examples you gave just comes to show the evolution of christianity, its state today is a result of addressing those past embarressments and learning from them, along with the separation between religious laws and the state's law. i fail to see this happening anywhere within the muslim/arab nations yet.

[irishgrl]

Well said Tommer, my point exactly.
Well ****, I guess I can now be justified in telling you that all Americans are murders and occupiers. If your statement has any truth then it can also be said that your entire people are responsible for an unimaginable amount of atrocities in the world
Well, then lets go back even further to England, the master colonizer of the world.

btw: I voted AGAINST the current crop of trouble makers. and as for your other comment, I agree that this country was stolen from the Native Americans.
Unfortunately I dont see any way to reverse the problem...

[Vianna]

"i fail to see this happening anywhere within the muslim/arab nations yet."

tommer, I kind of doubt it ever will. Their first community way back in Medina after Muhammad escaped Mecca was a religious community (no separation between church and state), and I think (though I may be wrong) that this is their model so to speak. The Qu'ran may even speak to this issue, I don't know.

Also what a fight it was to separate church from state in Christianity! It took hundreds of years, and America partially has the First Amendment because of that fight...and this is one reason Bush's being so friendly with the religious right in America scares me so...

[irishgrl]

In Islam, the Church IS the State. That is part of the problem Muslims have with Westerners.

Lux: After the Twin Towers fell, I remembered images of whole villages out in the streets, dancing, clapping, shooting off their guns, even toothless little old ladies celebrating that the Evil west was dealt a blow... You say that the majority of Muslims are just trying to live their own lives, and that may be true but until THEY do something about this horror, it wont stop. And the answer MUST come from within the Muslim community, because they wont listen to outsiders. There is plenty each family can do: stop glorifying terrorists and terrorism, stop sending young boys to Madrassas where they learn to HATE the west, stop funding terrorists, stop looking the other way when terrorists meet right down the street. Tell the authorities, keep the children out of Madrassas, stop making martyrs out of suicide bombers...

[irishgrl]

they already do.
and you're incredibly naive if you think only a few people celebrated and everyone else was in bed asleep or having dinner...I remember reporters saying that it was the topic of conversation EVERYWHERE, on the streets in the cafes in the businesses. Instead of being sickened about the loss of innocent life, people actually encouraged their young to JOIN the effort. It appears to me you are actually trying to MINIMIZE the problem!! As far as I am concerned, if one of their own can accept the fact that Muslims are responsible for the majority of terrorism worldwide, Im going to applaud him and say "Its about stinkin time."

Also: its incredibly hypocritical to blame America and say "look at all the bad we've done" and yet take our money or accept our military help or our care packages or any other showing of good will (Which is EXACTLY what the Arab nations have done). No matter what you say about America's policies you dont agree with, its an undeniable fact that America has also done at least as much good, if not more. So, on the whole, I am content with America's track record. Deal with it.

[tommer]

Lux, calling your perspective "naive" is a big compliment.
the truth of the matter is that there is a HUGE difference between the arab external front and their internal one (and please, don't claim i'm "not-in-the-know" this time, coz it's me who have some 20 arab channels on my tv and it is me who can understand their native tongue instead of their english spokesmen, okay?). the anti-western (or anti-jewish) propaganda is NOT some kind of underground ****, limited to a few extremist groups. it is a VERY common agenda, which is just a scapegoat for those corrupt and oppressive regimes in order to ignore their REAL domestic problems (such as poverty, lack of political freedom, higher education, limited human rights ect...). once their extremists won't be so obsessed with those external problems, they'll start stirring their domestic pots, and that's where their leaders' main fears lay.

[GODDESS6]

Oh jesus, of course they show the group of 12 people dancing around. If they show the rest of them sleeping in their beds or eating dinner it isn't particularly relevant. If there's some willing to fly planes into buildings of course there's also some willing to clap their hands about it.


Well in that case, until every American citizen does something about the horrors your country is committing shall everyone just blame the lot of you? Until your money stops funding troops and weapons that terrorise other citizens of the world, then I guess I can just tell you you're all responsible. Talk about spreading hate. Do you actually comprehend why there is such hatred out there? It's not jealous of 'freedoms' or whatever the American people are told. The government of your country has spread so much hatred and caused so much destruction that some have seen fit to retaliate. If you say that all Muslims should be blamed, then don't act surprised when they don't discriminate and simply blame every American citizen no matter what their personal beliefs or background.


now all this is just pissing me off!!!~ don't u remember the old saying? "opinions r like *ssholes, every1 has them & every1 thinks every1 elses stinks!!!~

i try real hard not 2 feed on all the hatred & not 2 hate some1 just becuz of their race or religious background, i mean we all have the right 2 live on this earth~ but it is real hard 2 have sympathy 4 a group of people who use their religion 2 justify their violence, such as putting beheadings on the internet of not just americans, but other non-muslims/arabs, who r their 2 help them!!!~ not trying AT ALL to promote violence, but if u r interested go to www.ogrish.com they have those horrible videos there, & b4 u guys think i am a freak, i live by 1 of the biggest airforce bases in the us, it is less than a mile from me, president bush came here 2 our underground bunker on 9-11~ & i have watched this war on terror closely since it is in my backyard so 2 speak, & everyother week a young man or woman is sent home in a bodybag from here because of the war on terror, but anyways, 1 of the soldiers i know gave me this site & said it would shed a little light on how willing the muslims/arabs are willing 2 go~ u know it is my wish if i could, 2 fix everything, no war, poverty, hatred, hunger~ freedom to love & or worship whatever the hell u want, like a big friggin' lovefest, like the original woodstock, peace love, u know the schpeil, but no matter all our wishing, hoping, praying that'll never happen~ i know tho i will never 4get 9-11, the memory hasn't faded a bit, i watched it as many of u unfold on live television, b4 they could edit out what was happening & saw INNOCENT people just trying 2 make a living, throwing themselves outa windows holding hands cuz their building was on fire & there was no way out~ watching them drop like raindrops from the sky, but it wasn't raindrops, it was people~ in all my 36 years of living i have never seen anything like it~ sorry if i rambled, but i have been reading this thread, & u r all right in your own ways, but now there is fighting btween some of u, just cuz u voiced your opinions, & that makes me sad~ i am american & i support my troops, but don't want 2 b @ war, we didn't find what we said we were looking 4 over there , we got saddam out, so now let the troops go home, or go after osama, where this all started 2 bgin w/ ~ damn i feel beter now!!!~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill

[GODDESS6]

Also: its incredibly hypocritical to blame America and say "look at all the bad we've done" and yet take our money or accept our military help or our care packages or any other showing of good will (Which is EXACTLY what the Arab nations have done). No matter what you say about America's policies you dont agree with, its an undeniable fact that America has also done at least as much good, if not more. So, on the whole, I am content with America's track record. Deal with it.[/QUOTE]





i also agree w/ this !!!~ sorry but i do~ every1 wants 2 say all the bad america has done @ the same time taking stuff from us, just so hypocritical~ & when their @ss is in the frying pan & they need military help, they come 2 us also~ we r only human, all of us & we r goin' 2 make mistakes & do stuff people DO NOT agree w/, but we do WAY MORE GOOD than harm!!!~
brightest stevie blessings~
jill

[irishgrl]

Lux, calling your perspective "naive" is a big compliment.
the truth of the matter is that there is a HUGE difference between the arab external front and their internal one (and please, don't claim i'm "not-in-the-know" this time, coz it's me who have some 20 arab channels on my tv and it is me who can understand their native tongue instead of their english spokesmen, okay?). the anti-western (or anti-jewish) propaganda is NOT some kind of underground ****, limited to a few extremist groups. it is a VERY common agenda, which is just a scapegoat for those corrupt and oppressive regimes in order to ignore their REAL domestic problems (such as poverty, lack of political freedom, higher education, limited human rights ect...). once their extremists won't be so obsessed with those external problems, they'll start stirring their domestic pots, and that's where their leaders' main fears lay.

As I said before, the Saudi Royals pay the terrorists to do their mischief elsewhere so they can continue their corrupt regime. Unfortunately, because of the cultural system in Muslim nations, (no representation of the people) the alternatives could be even worse (can you say Taliban boys and girls?)

also: I dont care if only ONE person danced in the streets when the Towers fell, that's one person too many. And if our witless wonder had anything to do with it, may he rot in Hell. I will NEVER forget the feeling that overcame me when I saw those towers fall, it was as if I saw the seeds of WW3 right then. I pray you never have to see thousands of your countrymen die in the blink of an eye the way I did. its a gut wrenching thing, and something you NEVER get over. and to say "oh please it was only 12 people dancing, everyone else was busy eating or sleeping" doesnt make it any better. It just makes you sound ridiculous.

don't want 2 b @ war, we didn't find what we said we were looking 4 over there , we got saddam out, so now let the troops go home, or go after osama, where this all started 2 bgin w/

I agree, we need to get the hell outa there, we dont belong there..but I dont think even finding Osama will end this, unfortunately...

[irishgrl]

Argh! Are you not reading what I am saying? I wasn't blaming every single American. I was using this as an example of why you can't blame every single Muslim. You seem to think that I should walk up to every Arab and hound them for information as to why they're not stopping terrorism.

America has done good for the world but don't use this as a justification for doing harm. I've said this before but I won't hesitate to use the same example again. I can chose to give all my money unicef but that doesn't give the right to then kill and child and still feel happy with my track record. America (or any people or government of any nation) is not free to destroy another group of people because they've done past good deeds. Like Australia in East Timor. It was our government who was partially responsible for the problem and yet when we jumped back in at the end we claimed we rescued them. We can send soldiers over to help out, but don't expect me to suddenly forget and feel patriotic about it. I'm not happy with that track record and it's not something you can undo.

And to who was talking about Sept. 11, I never said it wasn't terrible. I simply don't understand why some pain is worth feeling and other pain isn't. When over a million people die from US imposed sanctions on Iraq, nobody slaps that on the front page, the world doesn't stop and mourn. The people of Rwanda who suffered the worst atrocity of recent history are lucky they rate a mention. They shan't expect to be remembered for long but I guess people are aware that it even occured which is more than I can say for most atrocities. It's happening right now, but people don't seem to think that those such as the Sudanese are worth feeling pain for as much as those from western countries. It seems impossible for Americans to comprehend, but yes, there are tradgedies as bad as Sept. 11 occuring more frequently than you would think. They're not occuring in NY city, they're not dominating the news, and as much as most would hate to admit, whether solely or as a combined effort, it has often being carried out or supported by US governments.

Id be interested in knowing where you get your "over a million die from US imposed sanctions in Iraq" figure, in fact, I would REMIND you that the sanctions were imposed because Iraq refused to cooperate w/UN requests.
AND: just what was the nature of the sanction? America refused to send goods to Iraq? Is there any compulsion to do so? NO. So, the sanction is a stupid argument to put forth.

Also, you were blaming America for atrocities around the world, but I stated that overall, I am confident that America has done more GOOD than harm. I can live with that. If America stopped helping other nations, stopped providing military aid, stopped shipping food or medicine, or providing technological assistance, or any sort of aid whatsoever, there are a lot more people that would be harmed. I dont agree with everything America's policy makers say, obviously. Especially NOW. but I am still proud of what America has done for other countries, and I am proud to be an American.

as for which pain is worth feeling and which isnt, all pain is terrible, but in OUR case, other nations were rejoicing because they caused it. You dont see pictures of Americans out in the streets partying because we are waging war...In fact, most Americans are against the Iraq war and want us out. You have no leg to stand on, sorry. In other cases where our military is deployed, it is often at the request of another country, or as a peacekeeping mission for the UN etc...except for Iraq, we were asked for our help.

[Villavic]

my point is, everywhere there is warfare, there are Muslims.
Muslims occupy an area, and then cause strife because they want to have an independent Muslim state where ever they are...do you remember Pakistan?
That was once part of India, but the Muslims occupied it, and began insisting on their own state. .

hey hey hey...
I think you completely ignore all conflicts that happened (and happen) in SouthAmerica.
I don't remember ONE muslim involved there.

And.. that's no completely accurate about Pakistan. Yes, it was part of India, but muslims lived long time there, as they do live within India: Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Agra, and the conflictive region of Kashmir.

Some muslims wanted to be independent, so they moved to Pakistan. Those who wanted to stay with India, remained in Rajasthan and other parts of India. So.. not ALL muslims wanted war or wanted to "take Pakistan" out of India.

[irishgrl]

hey hey hey...
I think you completely ignore all conflicts that happened (and happen) in SouthAmerica.
I don't remember ONE muslim involved there.

And.. that's no completely accurate about Pakistan. Yes, it was part of India, but muslims lived long time there, as they do live within India: Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Agra, and the conflictive region of Kashmir.

Some muslims wanted to be independent, so they moved to Pakistan. Those who wanted to stay with India, remained in Rajasthan and other parts of India. So.. not ALL muslims wanted war or wanted to "take Pakistan" out of India.

Ok, so S. America is one of the lucky few to escape imported terrorism.
but about Pakistan, you fail to mention that there were also Hindus living in the same region for even LONGER and that that region was NOT exclusively Muslim, however the Muslims claimed it for their own and inititiated bloody warfare to create a separate state, the same as the Chechneyan separatists are doing now! The same as the Palestinians are doing, the same as the Serbs had done! All I am doing is pointing out a pattern.

[Villavic]

there were also Hindus living in the same region for even LONGER and that that region was NOT exclusively Muslim, however the Muslims claimed it for their own and inititiated bloody warfare to create a separate state,

Yes, that's true. Thanks for the correction. My point is that in spite of that, not ALL muslims are the same.
I think there's a bunch of idiots among muslims, but so there are among catholics, jews, blacks, whites, gays, straights, etc.. etc...

For example it was a fanatic hindu who killed Gandhi, not a muslim. And it was Ygal Amir (not a msulim at all) who killed Isaac Rabin. Ironic, isn't it?

[amber]

Oh jesus, of course they show the group of 12 people dancing around. If they show the rest of them sleeping in their beds or eating dinner it isn't particularly relevant. If there's some willing to fly planes into buildings of course there's also some willing to clap their hands about it.


Well in that case, until every American citizen does something about the horrors your country is committing shall everyone just blame the lot of you? Until your money stops funding troops and weapons that terrorise other citizens of the world, then I guess I can just tell you you're all responsible. Talk about spreading hate. Do you actually comprehend why there is such hatred out there? It's not jealous of 'freedoms' or whatever the American people are told. The government of your country has spread so much hatred and caused so much destruction that some have seen fit to retaliate. If you say that all Muslims should be blamed, then don't act surprised when they don't discriminate and simply blame every American citizen no matter what their personal beliefs or background.
Don't forget how we use the most natural resources and cause the most pollution.... :wavey:
AMber

[strandinthewind]

Don't forget how we use the most natural resources and cause the most pollution.... :wavey:
AMber

I believe China now has us beat there - if not, they are right on our heels.

[amber]

I believe China now has us beat there - if not, they are right on our heels.
Yeah, and China's really bad about not caring about endangered species, in the ocean or on land...right on our heels? really? I'm suprised, b/c although they have a zillion people, i didn't think they were so capitalist/consumptive...But I don't know, for sure...so i defer to you...
AMber

[irishgrl]

Well I appear to be rambling but I don't apologise for getting defensive here. People are interested in Iraq nowdays but long before any of the recent events, the sanctions on Iraq were my top political agenda. The death toll as a result of those sanctions was at over one million. I'm not making **** up, it just doesn't reach the mainstream news. Governments don't want you to know that their blockades prevent basic, cheap medical supplies reaching the children who are diseased because of other enforcements on their nation.

OK: let me ask you this: is there any reason why the US SHOULD continue? Is there any reason why AUSTRALIA for instance couldnt jump in and be generous? WHY should America constantly be badmouthed for not supplying food or medicine? God knows we need it here at home, but we are the biggest supplier of Red Cross/Goodwill/Care packages/$$$$/bailing out failed foreign governments and ON and ON and ON :shrug: :mad:

The way I see it, we need to help our OWN people FIRST. I find it disgusting that you can make such a self-righteous proclamation about how America starved people or allowed the sick to die, when NO OTHER NATION jumped into the void. PUH LEEEEEZ.

[irishgrl]

China IS worse, which surprised me when I first learned it...and in the rural areas where technology hasnt caught up, the pollution is even worse because they use old power generation methods such as (dirty) coal for their power plants in many cases and they dont have even the barest of environmental protections in place (ie: scrubbers in their smokestacks, polluted waters, depleted forests etc) Not to mention the strain on their resources due to their population, and lack of farmable land. Much of China is mountainous, and unsuited to growing most crops. As a result the Chinese have resorted to terrace farming, but they depend upon Russia and the US for much of their food supply. They cant possibly grow enough to feed their population, and havent been able to for some time. As for their socio/political system, there is corruption in them thar hills Elmer....just like every other country....

ps: Howdy Jason, glad you decided to show up! As for me, I am doing my usual rabble rousing schtick

[irishgrl]

I think there's a bunch of idiots among muslims, but so there are among catholics, jews, blacks, whites, gays, straights, etc.. etc...
Yes. very true. sad but true. We have the Prime Example in the White House. :eek:

[irishgrl]

I can remember reading about HUGE shipments of food and supplies and medicine that we shipped over to Iraq, only to be lost in the great underground Black Market! Iraqis THEMSELVES hijacked the shipments! What about all the care packages/medicine we air dropped in Afghanistan? We keep the middle eastern economies afloat by buying their oil in astronomical amounts at inflated prices! Give me a break! if the poor are not getting their supplies, blame their own corrupt governments!
Boo hoo for us.
I KNOW! Break open your piggy bank and help them out! Im sure one and all will be impressed, and you can feel good about yourself with justification!

[amber]

China IS worse, which surprised me when I first learned it...and in the rural areas where technology hasnt caught up, the pollution is even worse because they use old power generation methods such as (dirty) coal for their power plants in many cases and they dont have even the barest of environmental protections in place (ie: scrubbers in their smokestacks, polluted waters, depleted forests etc) Not to mention the strain on their resources due to their population, and lack of farmable land. Much of China is mountainous, and unsuited to growing most crops. As a result the Chinese have resorted to terrace farming, but they depend upon Russia and the US for much of their food supply. They cant possibly grow enough to feed their population, and havent been able to for some time. As for their socio/political system, there is corruption in them thar hills Elmer....just like every other country....

ps: Howdy Jason, glad you decided to show up! As for me, I am doing my usual rabble rousing schtick
:mad: "uh, hello? May I speak to Darwin, please?" ah, so many humans on the earth, so little left of everything else...
AMber

[irishgrl]

Well that's the most uniformed piece of garbage you've rattled off so far. Don't make grand assumptions based on one article you read somewhere regarding some specific incidence. The Iraqis were not to blame for the lack of medical supplies. oh but they WERE Lux, they WERE! if anyone is uninformed, its YOU!
feast yer peepers on these bits:
Drug shortages are a serious problem in all of Iraq's hospitals. One doctor treating adult leukemia patients at Baghdad Teaching Hospital told us he frequently had to send patients out to buy their own drugs on the black market, where they can be charged $300 for drugs that would cost the hospital $30. When they get back, he usually discovers from the label that the drugs they have been sold were stolen from his hospital in the first place.
clearly, the Iraqi people are stealing from each other.......

NEWS ANALYSIS
Forgotten Scandal: The UN's Oil for Food Program
CBN.com ? (CBN News) - The world's obsession with the Iraqi prison abuse story has obscured what could be one of the most expensive scandals in the history of the world: the United Nations' Oil for Food program. The UN is not eager to say how Saddam Hussein collected billions of dollars in illegal kickbacks from this scheme.

The Oil for Food program started eight years ago, as a U.N. plan to feed hungry Iraqis with Iraq's own oil revenues. But it ended last year in a mire of alleged bribes, kickbacks and billions of dollars lost to Saddam Hussein.
Theft at the Highest level....
here's more:


The UN is a ship of fools, and not the panacea for Iraq
By Alan Philps
(Filed: 23/04/2004)

The harshest test of a reporter in Iraq was a visit to the Saddam Hussein children's hospital in Baghdad. No heart could fail to be moved by the suffering of the patients in their fly-blown beds, and no head could fail to understand that the sanctions imposed after the 1990 invasion of Kuwait were in part to blame. But still there was a nagging doubt about the reality of the scene: although the suffering was real, the regime was partly responsible for the shortage of drugs and was using it to tug at the heart strings of the West.

The dilemma eased somewhat after 1995 when Saddam agreed on an oil-for-food deal. The UN would authorise sales of oil, and the money would be spent on imports of food and medicine. This humanitarian gesture has now been exposed as perhaps the biggest financial scam of all time. Saddam and his lieutenants creamed off millions of pounds in kickbacks, while at the same time buying influence abroad, particularly in Russia and France. The biggest humanitarian effort in the history of the world - feeding 23 million people - turns out to have been an oil-fuelled scandal. It is alleged that friendly politicians and businessmen around the world, as well as at least one senior UN official, benefited.
and here's the link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/04/23/do2301.xml)

I am more than capable of providing proof of my statements.
I do feel sorry for the Iraqi people, they HAVE suffered but you cant blame the sanctions for all their troubles. Once the Oil-for-Food program was agreed to, it should have alleviated some of the problem. Unfortunately, it was only a bandaid measure, and corruption at all levels prevented it from working properly. Therefore you need to re-examine your knee jerk reaction to blame America for all of Iraq's troubles. In fact, you may need to re-examine a lot more than that.

ps: I meant YOUR piggy bank. as in LUX's piggy bank.

[irishgrl]

Lux, you have taken this discussion all around the mulberry bush. this makes a third time you are shifting the focus. Guess what? third time's the charm.
maybe you should start a new thread.

[tommer]

nobody claimed that all muslims are terrorists, it said that all terrorists are muslims, and that the muslim societies and goverments don't do enough to condemn or fight this situation, please don't try and make it sound like some kind of wicked and racist claims.

[irishgrl]

I started this thread by saying an Arab TV exec stated that Muslims were responsible for Terrorism Worldwide. READ CAREFULLY: An ARAB MUSLIM said it. I agreed with him. YOU meander all over the place from defending Muslims to blaming Americans to pitying Iraqis...I have humored you because I like a good debate. Unfortunately, this is no longer a good debate, Only a place for Lux to meander, all they while stating that what I post is uninformed. I would point out, however that I have consistently provided proof, whilst YOU have NOT. btw: that excerpt I posted was NOT from CNN....it was CBN. Ring any Bells?

I have no problem talking about politics. I LOVE politics. I happen to HATE our current Administration and what they are doing. I protested LOUD and LONG when W seized the White House. I sent him nasty letters telling him just what a bumbler he is. Of course, I am probably on the short list now....at any rate, I see no point in continuing this any longer. If you want to contact me PM, do so and we can continue this elsewhere. I think its time we retired this discussion and stop taking up useless space.

[Johnny Stew]

btw: that excerpt I posted was NOT from CNN....it was CBN. Ring any Bells?

I have to say that I'd trust social/political news from ESPN before I trusted it from CBN... Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcast Network.

Every piece of news you get from CBN is filtered through their All-Conservative/All-Christian agenda.

Watch them for five minutes... they're preoccupied with those evil homosexuals who want to get married, and with casting anyone who disagrees with Bush (and, therefore, Pat Robertson's ideals) as an evil-doer (the U.N., the French, the Germans, etc.).

[Sleepless-Child]

I don't know how i ended up reading this thread but it made me feel really sad, and kind of pissed off.
People seem to get more sensitive while expressing their opinions about "who's better, Lindsey or Stevie?", than when talking about real world issues...
I don't know what's dumber, saying that Muslims are evil, or saying that religions in general suck. By saying the second one, you're just giving an other reason to agree with the first statement. However you can believe in God and still be a good person, who doesn't see things as clichés. Yes, it happens. That's actually what religion should be all about. I hate religion extremism as much as i hate over-the-top liberalism.

And there's one thing that is very true, and that Tommer implied, people shouldn't be having firm opinions about things they don't know. My uncle once told me, "if there's a conflict, then both sides are wrong". If there's one thing I know, for example, since irishgirl talked about that, it's that in Ex-Yugoslavia, there was not just one responsible for what happened. And all in all, you shouldn't blame a whole ethnic group for anything. It's the fact of some warlike idiots. Not everything is black or white.

[Silver Springs]

I don't know how i ended up reading this thread but it made me feel really sad, and kind of pissed off.
People seem to get more sensitive while expressing their opinions about "who's better, Lindsey or Stevie?", than when talking about real world issues...
I don't know what's dumber, saying that Muslims are evil, or saying that religions in general suck. By saying the second one, you're just giving an other reason to agree with the first statement. However you can believe in God and still be a good person, who doesn't see things as clichés. Yes, it happens. That's actually what religion should be all about. I hate religion extremism as much as i hate over-the-top liberalism.

I can understand why people would be against religion as it stands today, as it is often used as an excuse for ignorance, atrocities and poor judgement. BUT - before you reply on that statement alone- it's not an opinion I share. Whatever you choose to believe is your own personal choice. Whatever gets you through the night, after all. It's when it impedes on others personal freedoms that I don't get along with it.

This thread almost gave me a nose bleed. The original premise that one group of people could be responcible for terrorism is quite frankly arrogant and deplorable. We're all ****ed up in one way or another, but it isn't unique to us. The only statement I find myself agreeing to in this entire pea soup of a thread is the fact that war is in no way admissible or justified. No matter what the trigger, there is no excuse for an action that will inevitably lead to the loss of human life. Even if they're the most profoundly evil, because they ought to live the rest of the life they've created for themselves and be MADE to regret every vulgar action they committed in the name of their beliefs and their goals. And no, I don't mean by ways of torture, because that's just reducing the torturers to the evil's level.

[GypsySorcerer]

Well, rats. I thought Mary had come back. ;)

For the newer Ledgies, if you really want to make your head spin, read the old gas prices thread. :distress:

[Sleepless-Child]

I can understand why people would be against religion as it stands today, as it is often used as an excuse for ignorance, atrocities and poor judgement. BUT - before you reply on that statement alone- it's not an opinion I share. Whatever you choose to believe is your own personal choice. Whatever gets you through the night, after all. It's when it impedes on others personal freedoms that I don't get along with it.

This thread almost gave me a nose bleed. The original premise that one group of people could be responcible for terrorism is quite frankly arrogant and deplorable. We're all ****ed up in one way or another, but it isn't unique to us. The only statement I find myself agreeing to in this entire pea soup of a thread is the fact that war is in no way admissible or justified. No matter what the trigger, there is no excuse for an action that will inevitably lead to the loss of human life. Even if they're the most profoundly evil, because they ought to live the rest of the life they've created for themselves and be MADE to regret every vulgar action they committed in the name of their beliefs and their goals. And no, I don't mean by ways of torture, because that's just reducing the torturers to the evil's level.

Oh you know i completely get what you're saying, all of it. And indeed, i understand why a lot of people are atheists, but i just think the general hatred against people who are religious is as bad as religion extremism, because that's also stigmatising people. They called me "dumb" and "naive" because i believe in God. And i never called them ignorant or whatever because they didn't, nor do i think they are.
As for war...well people who think that a human being should be killed in the name of any idea (or in the name of nothing!) is, to me, just evil. Whatever his religion, opinions, are. But quite frankly IMO people tend to blend two things that are completely different : identities and behaviours. The second one is just, well, "up to you".

[HejiraNYC]

Well, rats. I thought Mary had come back. ;)

For the newer Ledgies, if you really want to make your head spin, read the old gas prices thread. :distress:

That thread never gets old. I think it ranks up there with her assertion that the British made twice as much money as Americans because the pound (at the time) was 2:1.

[Sleepless-Child]

Well, rats. I thought Mary had come back. ;)

For the newer Ledgies, if you really want to make your head spin, read the old gas prices thread. :distress:

Who's Mary? The original poster?
Ok thank you :D

[Silver Springs]

That thread never gets old. I think it ranks up there with her assertion that the British made twice as much money as Americans because the pound (at the time) was 2:1.

You have got to be kidding me... She doesn't sound like a person I would trust to tie her shoes correctly.

[poetinmyheart]

Is the original poster for real? Wow. Just wow.:eek:

[markolas]

Wow, talk about digging a thread out of the mothballs! I thought Mary aka irishgrl had come back, too. I remember the gas prices thread...poor Mary. :laugh:

[HejiraNYC]

You have got to be kidding me... She doesn't sound like a person I would trust to tie her shoes correctly.

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/3534321/2/stock-photo-3534321-person-wearing-yellow-shoes-with-laces-tied-together.jpg

[Silver Springs]

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/3534321/2/stock-photo-3534321-person-wearing-yellow-shoes-with-laces-tied-together.jpg

That looks about right. :lol:

[poetinmyheart]

So did Mary skulk off into the shadows after this gem of a thread?

[Sleepless-Child]

Wow, talk about digging a thread out of the mothballs! I thought Mary aka irishgrl had come back, too. I remember the gas prices thread...poor Mary. :laugh:

Sorry for destroying your expectations everyone :laugh:

So did Mary skulk off into the shadows after this gem of a thread?

Yes, seriously, i'm wondering too...

[jannieC]

My personal favorite was the Owen Wilson thread. :rolleyes: I wasn't a moderator then. Aw, I was still in graduate school!

[Macfanforever]

Wow good grief.This thread is shocking.

[BombaySapphire3]

So did Mary skulk off into the shadows after this gem of a thread?

Mary was not even a nominal fan of Fleetwood Mac or any of it's numerous past or present members as I recall .Once this particular forum cooled off a bit she likely found greener pastures,

[GypsySorcerer]

Oh, I couldn't resit: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=32384&page=2

The fun begins on page 2.

[Sleepless-Child]

Oh, I couldn't resit: http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=32384&page=2

The fun begins on page 2.

Oh my God :laugh:. "Therefore, $7.20 a gallon......is that in US dollars or is that in Euros?? that makes a big difference." :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Ok, glad i'm responsible for the good laugh but it wasn't my attention!

[markolas]

Mary was not even a nominal fan of Fleetwood Mac or any of it's numerous past or present members as I recall .Once this particular forum cooled off a bit she likely found greener pastures,

How on earth did she wind up here if she wasn't a FM fan? Her profile says she last logged in back in 2008, but I think she stopped posting regularly quite some time before that.

[markolas]

This is all making me terribly nostalgic for the Ledge of years past. Mary, dissention, strandinthewind, sparky, TheTower - those were some...strong personalities, shall we say.

[Ghost_Tracker]

This is all making me terribly nostalgic for the Ledge of years past. Mary, dissention, strandinthewind, sparky, TheTower - those were some...strong personalities, shall we say.

I think cute little puppy dogs suck.

There, does that help? :angel:


;)

http://www.innocentenglish.com/cute-pictures/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/very-cute-maltese-puppy.jpg

[GODDESS6]

This is all making me terribly nostalgic for the Ledge of years past. Mary, dissention, strandinthewind, sparky, TheTower - those were some...strong personalities, shall we say.

i miss them all~ i was thinking about dissention the other day~ last time we spoke it was after hurricane katrina~ it's been far too long~

[markolas]

i miss them all~ i was thinking about dissention the other day~ last time we spoke it was after hurricane katrina~ it's been far too long~

He kept up with his LiveJournal for a long time after he left the Ledge, but he hasn't posted there in a couple of years. Last I knew, his boyfriend was pushing him to get married - I'd love to know whatever happened with that. Can you imagine dis getting hitched? :laugh:

[GypsySorcerer]

He kept up with his LiveJournal for a long time after he left the Ledge, but he hasn't posted there in a couple of years. Last I knew, his boyfriend was pushing him to get married - I'd love to know whatever happened with that. Can you imagine dis getting hitched? :laugh:

:laugh: He never seemed like the marrying type.

I miss his posts, though. Those were some good times. :)

[skcin]

Well, rats. I thought Mary had come back. ;)


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

That thread never gets old. I think it ranks up there with her assertion that the British made twice as much money as Americans because the pound (at the time) was 2:1.

OMG, I remember that one.

You have got to be kidding me... She doesn't sound like a person I would trust to tie her shoes correctly.

Oh, she was something alright. Like, it was hard to believe she was real.

Wow, talk about digging a thread out of the mothballs! I thought Mary aka irishgrl had come back, too. I remember the gas prices thread...poor Mary. :laugh:

Poor Mary my ass. She was mean, hateful, vindictive. Oh, and a bigot.

This is all making me terribly nostalgic for the Ledge of years past. Mary, dissention, strandinthewind, sparky, TheTower - those were some...strong personalities, shall we say.

Yes. The old grey mare just ain't what she used to be...

[cliffdweller]

i miss them all~ i was thinking about dissention the other day~ last time we spoke it was after hurricane katrina~ it's been far too long~

I miss him too. I was just thinking that the chit chat forum isn't as fun as it used to be, in fact, I hardly ever come here anymore. We had some characters back in the day! Strand and Dissention never failed to make me laugh on a daily basis.

[David]

It's usually pretty fun to pore over the Ledge archives at http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/archive/index.php/.

I was reading something there the other day and stumbled across the name Kisspirit. Remember her? That was about fifteen years ago.

[Fireflies]

It's usually pretty fun to pore over the Ledge archives at http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/archive/index.php/.

I was reading something there the other day and stumbled across the name Kisspirit. Remember her? That was about fifteen years ago.

i remember her, david.

[David]

i remember her, david.
Several people from the past have, sadly, died, including Vianna and Barbara. I know there were others who have transitioned.

Our little community here at the Ledge (just like our little community over there at rmasn or amfm) is akin to a long-running sitcom: lives are lived, all jumbled together with joy and sorrow, growth, freedom, and redemption ... sometimes with cast changes (like Dick Sargent replacing Dick York).

It's a little microcosm of existence here, like Grover's Corners in Our Town. We even have our little cemetery on the hill. (I guess you could say I'm the Stage Manager.)

[Fireflies]

Several people from the past have, sadly, died, including Vianna and Barbara. I know there were others who have transitioned.

Our little community here at the Ledge (just like our little community over there at rmasn or amfm) is akin to a long-running sitcom: lives are lived, all jumbled together with joy and sorrow, growth, freedom, and redemption ... sometimes with cast changes (like Dick Sargent replacing Dick York).

It's a little microcosm of existence here, like Grover's Corners in Our Town. We even have our little cemetery on the hill. (I guess you could say I'm the Stage Manager.)

or brothel owner. david, will you tell us more about rmasn/amfm? :wavey:

[David]

or brothel owner. david, will you tell us more about rmasn/amfm? :wavey:These were spectacular and hugely popular Usenet groups in their day (roughly paralleling the initial growth spurt at the Penguin and the dawning realization among Macheads that they could chat online about their favorite band).

Completely unmoderated (other than by technology), these groups drew fans, passersby, and fanmail ladies, and were in their day the Information Superhighway center of attention. I know the man who formed the amfm group and I know the lady who formed the rmasn group. Little did either of them realize at the time that they were forging into uncharted territory, which would leave its mark on the pop cultural landscape for years to come.

[David]

I forgot to mention that there was even a Gibbonesque moral dimension to the story: These groups were ultimately (& quite decisively) brought down by invading hordes of Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

There was nothing to be done about it, either. By opening wide the doors and by allowing and encouraging all manner of social and cultural decadence, the groups sealed the pacts of their own destruction.

[michelle2677]

yikes!! i thought mary had returned, as well. at least it would have livened this place up :lol:

My personal favorite was the Owen Wilson thread. :rolleyes: I wasn't a moderator then. Aw, I was still in graduate school!


WHEN DID YOU STOP BECOMING A MODERATOR?! :shocked: that tells you how much i visit this place.

[jannieC]

yikes!! i thought mary had returned, as well. at least it would have livened this place up :lol:




WHEN DID YOU STOP BECOMING A MODERATOR?! :shocked: that tells you how much i visit this place.

No, no- I wasn't a moderator THEN. When Mary was here. When the Owen Wilson thread was happening. It's okay, Michelle. :p

[David]

No, no- I wasn't a moderator THEN. When Mary was here. When the Owen Wilson thread was happening. It's okay, Michelle. :p
The important thing is that you're still a moderator.

Even after I told you that I wanted to be a moderator, and THAT OBVIOUSLY WENT NOWHERE.

[chriskisn]

I forgot to mention that there was even a Gibbonesque moral dimension to the story: These groups were ultimately (& quite decisively) brought down by invading hordes of Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

There was nothing to be done about it, either. By opening wide the doors and by allowing and encouraging all manner of social and cultural decadence, the groups sealed the pacts of their own destruction.

Actually I think the groups are still active. Bill Gamelson posts to them still :lol:

Wow that guy must have time on his hands, he was posting crap when I (and you David) were active on there some 10+ years ago.

Not sure whether you'd call him a Visigoth or a Ostrogoth though :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

Actually I think the groups are still active. Bill Gamelson posts to them still :lol:

Wow that guy must have time on his hands, he was posting crap when I (and you David) were active on there some 10+ years ago.

Not sure whether you'd call him a Visigoth or a Ostrogoth though :shrug:

My ISP no longer provides newsgroups.:mad: That is where THIS all started, and David invited me over(sorry, David!).

[jannieC]

Even after I told you that I wanted to be a moderator, and THAT OBVIOUSLY WENT NOWHERE.

Oh David- you weren't serious. :rolleyes: Do you still want to be a moderator?

[chriskisn]

My ISP no longer provides newsgroups.:mad: That is where THIS all started, and David invited me over(sorry, David!).

Yeah I don't know how many active newsgroups there are in general on the net anymore that don't involve porn or pirated music/software etc.

I used to subscribe to Usenext which was about 12 euros a month but that was just too expensive for the very limited use I gave them (other than hunting down out of print albums).

[GODDESS6]

Actually I think the groups are still active. Bill Gamelson posts to them still :lol:

Wow that guy must have time on his hands, he was posting crap when I (and you David) were active on there some 10+ years ago.

Not sure whether you'd call him a Visigoth or a Ostrogoth though :shrug:

that name makes me shudder...lololol:lol:~