What the hell is going on!?

[CarneVaca]

There seems to be too much of a heavy hand handling things here right now. I keep seeing threads disappear, now I see a moderator put up a thread with a sticky and preventing people from responding. This is inappropriate and unacceptable. Who is running this forum, John Asscroft!?

First, there are too man freakin' stickies up right now and it's out of hand. Why are we being forced to scroll down to at least the sixth or seventh thread to engage in a discussion? Get rid of the stickies. Now! They are annoying, especially when the same freakin' message shows up on every god-dang board. Get rid of them. Or find a place for them exclusively. The last I checked there is a "Ledge Boards" area in this forum and that's where these things belong.

That stuff is bad enough. Now I'm beginning to see a rather insipid practice of disappearing threads. What the hell is going on here?

And why is a sticky thread being started and people being prevented from responding? So next time I need to make a statement but don't want to be bothered with questions about it, can I just put up a sticky and lock the thread immediately? THIS IS A MICKEY-MOUSE WAY TO RUN THINGS, and that kind of practice BELONGS ON MICK'S BOARD, not here.

Lastly, why is Villavic's thread on FM videos locked? Who the hell is locking all these threads?

I want answers!!

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

What's the magic word? :rolleyes: :p

And I must admit I did wonder about Villavic's locked thread

Pip

[CarneVaca]

What's the magic word? :rolleyes: :p

And I must admit I did wonder about Villavic's locked thread

Pip

Yes, this is an outrage! I thought this forum was above that kind of thing.

[strandinthewind]

I support the deleting of the thread in the Chit Chat forum as it violated the rules regarding drug usage, etc. :shrug:

I also support the locking of the thread that was continuing an argument on Burnish.net - I think that argument had no place here and I think it violated the FAQ's although I could be wrong.


I know nothing about the FM Video thread - so I cannot comment on that.

All in all, I think once a moderator tells someone to watch it, they need to do that or PM that moderator and tell them what is going on etc.

Anyway, my $0.02.

[gldstwmn]

Could it be because Villavic's thread was a dupe? There already is a thread about Favorite mac videos. :shrug:

[CarneVaca]

I support the deleting of the thread in the Chit Chat forum as it violated the rules regarding drug usage, etc. :shrug:

You mean to tell me that a poster saying he/she was posting while under the influence of drugs is supposed to be some kind of violation? That seems like a stretch to me.

Hell, we should never mention Stevie's, Lindsey's Christine's, Mick's and John's abuse of various substances then. Seems like an arbitrary decision was made, and it was a bad one.

Smells of censorship to me.

[ontheEdgeof17]

The reason his thread was locked was because he accidently made two. No big controversy there.

[CarneVaca]

The reason his thread was locked was because he accidently made two. No big controversy there.

Uh? Who? Which thread?

[ThePenguin]

CarneVaca--

Such hostility! Nobody forces you to frequent the Ledge forums-- certainly not the moderators. At any time or if you do not like the way the forums are run, you are free to find something else to do. You can also get your own server, create your own forum, and post as much as you want. You can have as many rules as you want, or no rules at all.

A FAQ was established that has the guidelines for these forums. It has been modified from time to time as the Ledge grows by myself and the moderators. The moderators do their best to enforce the FAQ and if their (or my) actions strike you as censorship, then so be it. These actions do not qualify as censorship to me. For the number of posts that are on the Ledge (approaching 150,000), I think the moderators intervene VERY infrequently and with much discretion. For your convenience, the FAQ contains links to a few areas on the internet where there are no rules at all. If you do not like the FAQ, you can go to the other sites or start your own forum as suggested above.

There is nothing wrong with the content of Villavic's post. I notice EXACTLY the same thing is posted on the Ledge and it is not closed. The unclosed post has a poll though. PERHAPS, he wanted a poll in it and forgot to add that option in the original post. He then started a second one with a poll and, since users can no longer delete their own posts if they started a thread [a feature added after another blowup a few months back], it was closed by a moderator. Is that plausible at all? Was he censored at all because of this?

As the administrator of The Ledges, it is at my discretion to have sticky threads or not. I have delegated this option to the moderators as well. Key elements of the site that people will find interesting or for which I am hoping for some participation are 'stuck'. Some people, unlike yourself, visit the forums infrequently and I would like this information to be easily accessible. Again, on your forum, you can avoid the use of all sticky threads as this bothers you so much, that it is apparently necessary to use big red words to try to make a point.

- Marty

[MikeVielhaber]

There seems to be too much of a heavy hand handling things here right now. I keep seeing threads disappear, now I see a moderator put up a thread with a sticky and preventing people from responding. This is inappropriate and unacceptable. Who is running this forum, John Asscroft!?

First, there are too man freakin' stickies up right now and it's out of hand. Why are we being forced to scroll down to at least the sixth or seventh thread to engage in a discussion? Get rid of the stickies. Now! They are annoying, especially when the same freakin' message shows up on every god-dang board. Get rid of them. Or find a place for them exclusively. The last I checked there is a "Ledge Boards" area in this forum and that's where these things belong.

That stuff is bad enough. Now I'm beginning to see a rather insipid practice of disappearing threads. What the hell is going on here?

And why is a sticky thread being started and people being prevented from responding? So next time I need to make a statement but don't want to be bothered with questions about it, can I just put up a sticky and lock the thread immediately? THIS IS A MICKEY-MOUSE WAY TO RUN THINGS, and that kind of practice BELONGS ON MICK'S BOARD, not here.

Lastly, why is Villavic's thread on FM videos locked? Who the hell is locking all these threads?

I want answers!!

breathe in.....breathe out....now chill out

[CarneVaca]

CarneVaca--

Such hostility!

Hostility!? Not even close. Just asking for some answers, is all. Or is asking questions an act of aggression in your eyes?

Nobody forces you to frequent the Ledge forums-- certainly not the moderators. At any time or if you do not like the way the forums are run, you are free to find something else to do. You can also get your own server, create your own forum, and post as much as you want. You can have as many rules as you want, or no rules at all.

I know, Marty. You love to point that out every single time, and frankly I could have answered it for you since I know it by heart now, but you're not really addressing the issue, are you?

There is nothing wrong with the content of Villavic's post. I notice EXACTLY the same thing is posted on the Ledge and it is not closed. The unclosed post has a poll though. PERHAPS, he wanted a poll in it and forgot to add that option in the original post. He then started a second one with a poll and, since users can no longer delete their own posts if they started a thread [a feature added after another blowup a few months back], it was closed by a moderator. Is that plausible at all? Was he censored at all because of this?

A simple, "Villavic made a mistake. A new thread was started and the original one canceled," would have sufficed. Why lock the thread? If it's an unintentional dupe, why not delete it?

As the administrator of The Ledges, it is at my discretion to have sticky threads or not. I have delegated this option to the moderators as well. Key elements of the site that people will find interesting or for which I am hoping for some participation are 'stuck'.

Does the same message have to be stuck on every single board? Why do you have a "Ledge Forums" board if you're going to use every other board for the purposes of the "Ledge Forums" board? Now we have stickies going up with apologies to friends on threads that are locked to prevent anyone from responding. That strikes me as an abuse of the sticky and locking power. And I noticed you didn't address that point. Why not? Why is it OK to create a restricted thread so you can apologize to a friend?

And why was it necessary to delete threads that already contained a lot of participation? When the thread should have been deleted -- the unintentional duplication mentioned above -- it was locked. When it perhaps should have been locked or been moderated with some posts of caution -- the Burnish and Zeppelin debacles -- it was deleted. What's the rationale here?

Again, on your forum, you can avoid the use of all sticky threads as this bothers you so much, that it is apparently necessary to use big red words to try to make a point.

Gee, Marty, now you're objecting to how I choose to write my posts. That kind of thing should be beneath you. I don't see anything in the FAQ about prohibiting the highlighting of words and phrases in your posts. Why would you object to that? You object to my making a point? I see you're not above repeating yourself several times to make your points -- it's my board, read the FAQ, etc. -- so why would you object to how I make mine?

[skcin]

Yaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnnnnn..

:rolleyes:

Seriously, how long is THIS one going to go on? Oh well, I guess I will CHOOSE to not read this thread anymore.

Paula

[CarneVaca]

Yaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnnnnn..

:rolleyes:

Seriously, how long is THIS one going to go on? Oh well, I guess I will CHOOSE to not read this thread anymore.

Paula

I endorse that choice.

[The Tower]

Yaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnnnnn..

:rolleyes:

Seriously, how long is THIS one going to go on?

:lol:

However, I have to admit it- I have a strange fascination with watching people invest so much energy into something so trivial simply for the sake of argument.

[Mari]

freedom of speech.
ah, so trivial :rolleyes:

[GODDESS6]

breathe in.....breathe out....now chill out

no ****, all i have to say to this is:

SERENITY NOW!!!~

BLESSED BE~
JILL

[Nixxxed]

I second Marty's comments, and not because this is HIS board. For a Fleetwood Mac board, it seems there is rarely any Mac talk going on. Just like the in the Presidential race, let's get back to the issues:

- What is Stevie wearing, and will she really be back in the studio this fall for her new album?

- Is Lindsey recording and working his fingers to the nub to give us some great music? I hope so!

- Isn't it great that Christine's new single is a hit? I actually heard it on the radio! And did anyone see the commercial for her album during the "Destiny Rules" Vh1 re-broadcast on Sunday?

- I'm glad Mick made his own album. Even though I probably won't buy it. I really liked The Visitor though...

- Where the hell is John? :wavey:

[NoThatFunny]

freedom of speech.
ah, so trivial :rolleyes:

I agree with you. I thought the original poster was making some important points, despite the bluster. I would still be curious to see the answers to the unanswered questions.

[The Tower]

freedom of speech.
ah, so trivial :rolleyes:

Oh please... It's just a BBS! Privately owned, I might add.

[Mari]

well, let's start with the stickie-issue.
Here's a printscreen I just made.

picturelink (http://home.tiscali.nl/thenicksfiles/other/psledge.jpg)

See what's happening? There's only ONE other subject visible besides the stickies. So you nearly always have to scroll down.
It's a nice gadget, but I agree it's gotten a bit out of hand & it's a cause of irritation.

[Mari]

Oh please... It's just a BBS! Privately owned, I might add.

I don't get it how we use the word 'private' for a forum that's visited by hundreds. If not thousands. Would be interesting to philosophize about, mm?

[The Tower]

See what's happening? There's only ONE other subject visible besides the stickies. So you nearly always have to scroll down.
It's a nice gadget, but I agree it's gotten a bit out of hand & it's a cause of irritation.

Damn that scrolling!!! I actually HAVE to move my finger a little bit?!?!?

:lol: :lol:

Seriously, I'm just having fun. I think stuff like this is hilarious.

[Bella Figura]

see what happens when you take the summer off??? I needed the sticky's to get the gossip. but I always miss the good feuds :shrug: someone pm me and tell me the scoop :shocked:

[Mari]

What, you never heard of RSI (http://eeshop.unl.edu/rsi.html) before? :p

[CarneVaca]

Damn that scrolling!!! I actually HAVE to move my finger a little bit?!?!?

:lol: :lol:

Seriously, I'm just having fun. I think stuff like this is hilarious.

"Seriously, I'm just having fun." ;) I like the inherent contradiction in that statement.

Back to the issues at hand: Don't you think these stickies should go in a separate forum? I mean, all of a sudden you have the same dang post everywhere, and no one is responding to it anywhere. What's the point? Create a place for these things and be done with it.

[ThinLine]

I don't get it how we use the word 'private' for a forum that's visited by hundreds. If not thousands. Would be interesting to philosophize about, mm?

I own a store and the land the store is built on. Thousands of people come in my store every year but I don't want any animals brought in, or any food eaten in my store, or any smoking in my store. I have these requests posted where everyone can see them and I ask everyone to abide by my wishes. I can say that because it's my store, my land and a public place where thousands of people can visit.

Does that help?

[Nixxxed]

well, let's start with the stickie-issue.


NO, let's not start with the stickie-issue. Marty has already answered the question in his post. Why do you feel the need to get him to change his mind? It's his board, and it's his decision.

Here's a computer tip: if your finger gets tired from scrolling, take your hand off the mouse for approximately a second and hit a little key called "Page Down".

[CarneVaca]

I own a store and the land the store is built on. Thousands of people come in my store every year but I don't want any animals brought in, or any food eaten in my store, or any smoking in my store. I have these requests posted where everyone can see them and I ask everyone to abide by my wishes. I can say that because it's my store, my land and a public place where thousands of people can visit.

Does that help?

You know what the worst thing about analogies is? They usually fail. A store where commerce is transacted is hardly parallel to a forum created expressly for the purpose of exchanging ideas. That's where your analogy fails, and miserably so.

[CarneVaca]

NO, let's not start with the stickie-issue. Marty has already answered the question in his post. Why do you feel the need to get him to change his mind? It's his board, and it's his decision.

What's wrong with trying to change his mind? Marty has made changes to the boards before based on input from the community members. Do you see something wrong with that?

Here's a computer tip: if your finger gets tired from scrolling, take your hand off the mouse for approximately a second and hit a little key called "Page Down".

Well, which finger should you use for that? ;)

[jbrownsjr]

Wait, you mean to tell me Christine's new single is a hit!! Holy ****! :woohoo:

[jbrownsjr]

my sarcasm got the nu page! :]

[Nixxxed]

What's wrong with trying to change his mind? Marty has made changes to the boards before based on input from the community members. Do you see something wrong with that? Well, which finger should you use for that? ;)

You're not trying to get Marty to change his mind. If that were the fact, you would have messaged him privately and respectfully. But you didn't, you created a separate topic filled with flames on the main board of the Ledge to create some big controversy. You're simply trying to be in control, and you can't stand it that you're not.

[CarneVaca]

You're not trying to get Marty to change his mind. If that were the fact, you would have messaged him privately and respectfully. But you didn't, you created a separate topic filled with flames on the main board of the Ledge to create some big controversy. You're simply trying to be in control, and you can't stand it that you're not.

That accusation is so absurd it hardly merits a response. If I weren't trying to get them to change this annoying sticky policy, do you think I would have wasted my time? Please. :rolleyes:

[Nixxxed]

Wait, you mean to tell me Christine's new single is a hit!! Holy ****! :woohoo:

FINALLY! Someone gets back to the issues!

YES, Christine's single is a big hit. It was one of the, if not the most added single in her radio format. (Whichever one that is...)

I even heard it on the radio in Houston. The last new Stevie or Mac single to even be played on the "mainstream" radio here was "Maybe Love..." in 1994. Some of the oldies stations played "Silver Springs" and "Landslide" in 1997, but none of the hits-only stations as far as I know.

So, that's pretty good for Christine if you ask me. I've seen the commercial for her album several times on Vh1 and once surfing across Lifetime (I think -- all those little corner network icons start to look the same after a while...). It's a great clip in case you haven't seen it -- it has a very green look to it, just like the album cover, and the editing flows perfectly with the music. And she looks great, to boot!

[CarneVaca]

FINALLY! Someone gets back to the issues!

You're quite mistaken. The issue at hand has nothing to do with Christine here. Last I checked, there is a board to discuss her music and doings.

Why do you keep trying to derail this thread? What do you have to gain from that? If it bothers you, why do you keep stopping by?

[ThinLine]

You know what the worst thing about analogies is? They usually fail. A store where commerce is transacted is hardly parallel to a forum created expressly for the purpose of exchanging ideas. That's where your analogy fails, and miserably so.

I suppose I can get into a pissing contest with you but seeing as how it's Marty's site and message board, I respect what he wants to do and how he wants to run his his site. I don't demand that stickies be removed and the board changed because I don't like it or mock his management skills and and that of his moderators by posting nasty demanding threads like the one you started here. It's a shame that you can't see how out of line the tone of your original post is. You could have accomplished much of what you wanted to know without the nasty manner in which you chose to start this thread.

We have 3 major public Fleetwood Mac message boards. Currently one of the sites is closed and we came close to losing this one last year. No open message board is ever going to please everyone who reads or posts on that board but the site owners (and moderators) do the best job they can. No easy task if you ask me. Fans can make the choice that they can live with the rules of each board or they can choose not to post or visit that site. Sometimes we may think the owner made the wrong decision but IMO, continuing to publicly harrass and challenge them in a nasty tone is wrong. You might disagree but I think from reading your posts you know how Marty feels about this so why continue to mock him and take this site down this path?

[diamondsnake]

I completely agree with you Carne. There are way too many stickies and I was a bit turned off when Johnny Stew locked the thread I started about Burnish. This is a Fleetwood Mac board and Burnish.net is a big part of the online Fleetwood Mac community. If I have questions about why the heck the site was frozen I should be able to ask them. No one was getting angry and everyone was having a civilized conversation and the next thing I knew the word "Burnish" was forbidden from this forum and all the thread pertaining to it were locked. Okay, sorry I am so mad. I just thought it was a bit rude that one of my threads was locked and furthermore, everyone thinks I am the troublemaker on this board when I am not! At least, I don't mean to be.

[Hippocampus]

I agree with you. I thought the original poster was making some important points, despite the bluster. I would still be curious to see the answers to the unanswered questions.


I'm intrigued. You wouldn't happen to know a great deal about dual identities and secondary accounts per chance? :lol:

[Nixxxed]

That accusation is so absurd it hardly merits a response. If I weren't trying to get them to change this annoying sticky policy, do you think I would have wasted my time? Please. :rolleyes:

If it were truly absurd, you wouldn't have responded at all. Seriously dude, control issues. And you're not wasting YOUR time, you're wasting OUR time. I'll say it again: this is not your board. And yes, I think you would have wasted it regardless.

[CarneVaca]

I suppose I can get into a pissing contest with you but seeing as how it's Marty's site and message board, I respect what he wants to do and how he wants to run his his site. I don't demand that stickies be removed and the board changed because I don't like it or mock his management skills and and that of his moderators by posting nasty demanding threads like the one you started here. It's a shame that you can't see how out of line the tone of your original post is. You could have accomplished much of what you wanted to know without the nasty manner in which you chose to start this thread.

If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who violated the rules of this board yesterday by insisting on posting about the burnish.net nonsense even after a moderator asked that the discussion be stopped. So not only did you show utter and complete disrespect to the spirit of this community and its guidelines, you doubled that by disrespecting the moderator. You, sir/madam, are in no position to reprimand anyone. And I would suggest you stick around and observe a little more before you get on your soapbox again.

We have 3 major public Fleetwood Mac message boards. Currently one of the sites is closed and we came close to losing this one last year.

There you go again. How many times are moderators here going to have to tell you not to carry over discussions from other boards to this board?

Fans can make the choice that they can live with the rules of each board or they can choose not to post or visit that site. Sometimes we may think the owner made the wrong decision but IMO, continuing to publicly harrass and challenge them in a nasty tone is wrong.

It is also wrong to continue to insist on discussing matters that a moderator has asked you to stop discussing, or do you not see that? And, frankly, I don't really care what you think is wrong, especially since you have already barrelled through here disrespecting the community and specific individuals.

You might disagree but I think from reading your posts you know how Marty feels about this so why continue to mock him and take this site down this path?

I disagree with your assessment that I have mocked him. I merely asked Marty some questions, some of which he answered and some of which he didn't. Do you see me pressing him further on the issue of the locked thread that was duplicated? No. I am merely pressing on the issues that I do not feel were answered.

You would do well to tone down your sense of indignation about my behavior until you adjust your own.

[CarneVaca]

Okay, sorry I am so mad. I just thought it was a bit rude that one of my threads was locked and furthermore, everyone thinks I am the troublemaker on this board when I am not! At least, I don't mean to be.

You have the right to be mad. The thread wasn't merely locked, it was deleted. That is a total abuse of the moderating power, as I see it.

[CarneVaca]

And you're not wasting YOUR time, you're wasting OUR time.

I can only waste your time on this board if you allow me to.

[Nixxxed]

I can only waste your time on this board if you allow me to.

You're not wasting my time. I really needed a good laugh today -- I think this is HILARIOUS. :laugh: By now, I would make a significant bet that your computer is smoking, your fingers have begun to cramp, and that good ole Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is having its sweet way with you. I see it so clearly now -- you simply can't help yourself, and that's why "Addicted" Ledgie is the perfect description for you. Seriously dude, control issues.

"And nothing you can say can change my mind." So spare yourself the knuckle-ache.

[CarneVaca]

You're not wasting my time. I really needed a good laugh today -- I think this is HILARIOUS. :laugh: By now, I would make a significant bet that your computer is smoking, your fingers have begun to cramp, and that good ole Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is having its sweet way with you. I see it so clearly now -- you simply can't help yourself, and that's why "Addicted" Ledgie is the perfect description for you. Seriously dude, control issues.

Seriously, dude, don't worry about it. I write for a living. So typing for me is like breathing. While I do this I am working on three other projects at the same time. Yeah, seriously, dude, you talk about control. That's control.

"And nothing you can say can change my mind." So spare yourself the knuckle-ache.

I don't care to change your mind. You're giving yourself more importance in how I perceive your interference in this thread than I have.

[diamondsnake]

You have the right to be mad. The thread wasn't merely locked, it was deleted. That is a total abuse of the moderating power, as I see it.
I completely agree. Now, if I made a racist, hateful post then I could completely understand it being deleted. But all I said was "What's going on with Burnish?"

[ThinLine]

If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who violated the rules of this board yesterday by insisting on posting about the burnish.net nonsense even after a moderator asked that the discussion be stopped. So not only did you show utter and complete disrespect to the spirit of this community and its guidelines, you doubled that by disrespecting the moderator. You, sir/madam, are in no position to reprimand anyone. And I would suggest you stick around and observe a little more before you get on your soapbox again.



There you go again. How many times are moderators here going to have to tell you not to carry over discussions from other boards to this board?



It is also wrong to continue to insist on discussing matters that a moderator has asked you to stop discussing, or do you not see that? And, frankly, I don't really care what you think is wrong, especially since you have already barrelled through here disrespecting the community and specific individuals.



I disagree with your assessment that I have mocked him. I merely asked Marty some questions, some of which he answered and some of which he didn't. Do you see me pressing him further on the issue of the locked thread that was duplicated? No. I am merely pressing on the issues that I do not feel were answered.

You would do well to tone down your sense of indignation about my behavior until you adjust your own.


Like I said, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, many of us know how you love that. I am going to say that not everyone posts 3300 times to have to be told by someone like you to "stick around". I've been around since the beginning and quite possibly longer than you. Thousands of people visit this site who don't post.

It's been pointed out to you many times that you can leave if you're so unhappy about the way this site is run. I would think someone with your high standards, sense of right and wrong about free speech, proper site design and management skills would have taken their leave long ago or started their own open message board. But that would take money and time and energy for something that benefits many people.

You didn't merely ask Marty some questions, you demanded the stickies be removed, NOW. You mocked the management skills of Marty and his moderators with your Mickey Mouse remarks, you demanded answers and told him how to design and run his site.

[amber]

I completely agree. Now, if I made a racist, hateful post then I could completely understand it being deleted. But all I said was "What's going on with Burnish?"
But I don't think anyone faults you for it being locked. I seem to recall that I asked "What happened?" and then someone said what happened and then other people started talking about what happened, there was the inevitable disagreement, then Johnny said that he doesn't want a disagreement about Burnish, and the posts therein, besmirching the Ledge, lest something untoward be said about Tracy or Burnish in general, he didn't want the toxic carry over. Seems to me. Or, IMHO. It was nothing about you.
AMber

[CarneVaca]

Like I said, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, many of us know how you love that.

Wow, you've been here, what, two, three days, and you already know me!!?

I am going to say that not everyone posts 3300 times to have to be told by someone like you to "stick around". I've been around since the beginning and quite possibly longer than you. Thousands of people visit this site who don't post.

That's wonderful, but so what?

It's been pointed out to you many times that you can leave if you're so unhappy about the way this site is run. I would think someone with your high standards, sense of right and wrong about free speech, proper site design and management skills would have taken their leave long ago or started their own open message board. But that would take money and time and energy for something that benefits many people.

I am perfectly happy where I am. And, really, I'm not sure why it should matter to you so much where I post. :shrug:

You didn't merely ask Marty some questions, you demanded the stickies be removed, NOW. You mocked the management skills of Marty and his moderators with your Mickey Mouse remarks, you demanded answers and told him how to design and run his site.

This is utter nonsense. I told him "how to design and run his site?" I'd like you to quote back to me where I said that. You can't because I never said it. For someone who claims you know me so well, it's weird that you missed the humor in my post, what with the references to Mickey Mouse and all. The people around here who have grown accustomed to my style of posting probably got that.

[Johnny Stew]

The Burnish thread was closed and then deleted because it was perpetuating a personal feud. Which is clearly against our FAQs.
Christopher (diamondsnake) this is through no fault of your own... it was simply the direction in which the thread went.

The new "Burnish Situation" thread that is currently sticky, was posted by me to clear the air a little. It was not meant to be a discussion, it was meant to be an explanation.

Also, it was never my intention to leave it sticky for more than about 24 hours or so, in order for people to have a chance to read it.
After that, I had every intention of un-sticking it.

For the record, I'm on a slower computer and I'm on a dial-up connection, and I have no problems scrowling past a few sticky threads.

[CarneVaca]

The Burnish thread was closed and then deleted because it was perpetuating a personal feud. Which is clearly against our FAQs.

Since when did we start deleting threads? I thought the practice was to lock them. Did you make an arbitrary ruling or has the policy changed?

The new "Burnish Situation" thread that is currently sticky, was posted by me to clear the air a little. It was not meant to be a discussion, it was meant to be an explanation... so therefore I closed it.

Seriously, Johnny, you don't see anything wrong with posting a thread and locking it immediately so you can have the last word, and then going back, unlocking it, using it for the personal resason of apologizing to a friend, relocking it and disallowing people from replying? You think that was proper?

[Johnny Stew]

Since when did we start deleting threads? I thought the practice was to lock them. Did you make an arbitrary ruling or has the policy changed?

Why is assumed that I'm even the one who deleted it? I'm not the only moderator here, although I realize I'm usually the most vocal.

And deleting threads is not a new thing. Threads have been deleted in the past for violating FAQs.

It's not something we like to do, and it's not something we've done very often... but it has been done when it's considered necessary.


Seriously, Johnny, you don't see anything wrong with posting a thread and locking it immediately so you can have the last word, and then going back, unlocking it, using it for the personal resason of apologizing to a friend, relocking it and disallowing people from replying? You think that was proper?

I made a judgement call. I don't expect everyone to agree with what I did, but I felt I needed to do it. And I don't apologize for it.

[diamondsnake]

Christopher (diamondsnake) this is through no fault of your own... it was simply the direction in which the thread went.

But that is just the thing- the thread wasn't going in a bad direction. Everyone was being civilized and it was not turning into a fight. When the Ledge was shut down for about a week last year there were posts on Burnish and BN.net about it and people speculated. Why can't people wonder what happened to Burnish when it has shut down? I think you should have only deleted my thread if a fight happened or if people were being nasty to each other. There is nothing on the FAQ that says we can't talk about other Fleetwood Mac websites.

[amber]

But that is just the thing- the thread wasn't going in a bad direction. Everyone was being civilized and it was not turning into a fight. When the Ledge was shut down for about a week last year there were posts on Burnish and BN.net about it and people speculated. Why can't people wonder what happened to Burnish when it has shut down? I think you should have only deleted my thread if a fight happened or if people were being nasty to each other. There is nothing on the FAQ that says we can't talk about other Fleetwood Mac websites.
People were fighting, member?
AMber

[The Tower]

But that is just the thing- the thread wasn't going in a bad direction. Everyone was being civilized and it was not turning into a fight.

Ummmm... I would have to disagree with this one- there were definitely some uncivilized tones in that thread. There were some sly, venomous comments that were made about another poster that could have easily slid into a "personal feud"- except for the fact that that particular poster had the smarts to not react to the venom.

I think Johnny was right to lock it- although, I don't think it necessarily needed to be deleted.

[Johnny Stew]

But that is just the thing- the thread wasn't going in a bad direction. Everyone was being civilized and it was not turning into a fight. When the Ledge was shut down for about a week last year there were posts on Burnish and BN.net about it and people speculated. Why can't people wonder what happened to Burnish when it has shut down? I think you should have only deleted my thread if a fight happened or if people were being nasty to each other. There is nothing on the FAQ that says we can't talk about other Fleetwood Mac websites.

If there were conversations on Burnish and BN.net about The Ledge, so be it. Our guidelines and FAQs don't apply anywhere but here.

And keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with having general discussions about other fan-sites here... that's not the issue. The issue was negative comments made about the site, and then negative comments made (by both sides) in regards to why the Burnish message board is no longer functional.

As I said, personal feuds and "wars" that happen on other sites, are to stay there. And derogatory comments about those sites and the people who run them, are not acceptable here.

It's that simple.

[ThinLine]

Wow, you've been here, what, two, three days, and you already know me!!?



That's wonderful, but so what?



I am perfectly happy where I am. And, really, I'm not sure why it should matter to you so much where I post. :shrug:



This is utter nonsense. I told him "how to design and run his site?" I'd like you to quote back to me where I said that. You can't because I never said it. For someone who claims you know me so well, it's weird that you missed the humor in my post, what with the references to Mickey Mouse and all. The people around here who have grown accustomed to my style of posting probably got that.

You obviously didn't understand the concept the first time so here it is again. There are thousands of people who visit the Penguin and other fan sites and don't post at all or rarely post. That doesn't mean they don't read the threads or arrived here yesterday or 3 days ago.

I don't know why I'm bothering but here it goes, from your original post........




Who is running this forum, John Asscroft!?


Get rid of the stickies. Now!

Get rid of them. Or find a place for them exclusively. The last I checked there is a "Ledge Boards" area in this forum and that's where these things belong

THIS IS A MICKEY-MOUSE WAY TO RUN THINGS, and that kind of practice BELONGS ON MICK'S BOARD, not here.

I want answers!!

Gee, Marty, now you're objecting to how I choose to write my posts. That kind of thing should be beneath you.



Sorry, I don't know how to make change the size of the type and use the fancy red type to drive your point home once again.

It seems many people including Marty missed the humor in your post and Marty commented on the hostility in your first post. You didn't point out to him in your reply that your references were supposed to be meant to be humorous and since he owns the site and you know that he's been here longer than 3 days, somehow he didn't see the humor either.

[SteveMacD]

That is a total abuse of the moderating power, as I see it.

That would be true if this were a public forum. However, this is not a public forum. This is a privately owned forum that is for entertainment purposes only. Marty owns this forum and has invested a lot of time, energy, and money into the forum. Therefore, he can do things his way. End of discussion. You do not have a say in how Marty runs his site. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. It's really that simple.

[dissention]

Oh you just like to argue. Are we trying to protect innocent minds? I would argue (if I could be bothered, however I can't so I'll just state this) that an account of nearly choking to death on ones own drug induced vomit is not much of an endorsement and in fact does the opposite of encouraging drug use. And since it was specific to illegal substances I don't see much justification. So if someone starts eating themself to death is that taboo too? It's not illegal, but it's not particularly healthy. Or can we mention drugs as long as we follow this mention with a condemnation of them?

I see the government men in black suits coming for me. I say take me, or would have if I wasn't being gagged. Anywho I'm just typing for the sake of typing. As has been documented, when it comes to internet sites I appear to have an overwhelming sense of apathy. Continue.

My 1 cent. Like the regular two but I lost one in the car on the way over.

I could care less if the thread was deleted or not because I had no use for it, but it takes a stretch of the imagination to think that the folks who support this board with their money would want to waste it on the crap that was in that thread. Download AIM.

My 3 cents.

[gldstwmn]

I'm intrigued. You wouldn't happen to know a great deal about dual identities and secondary accounts per chance? :lol:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ;)

[The Tower]

^------- Me, too!! I thought that was SUCH a slamola!!! Very funny....

[Lee]

Yes, I say ban them, every freakin one of them! They are in my way! They are keeping my from getting to the threads faster. I need to know the Mac info ASAP! I just HATE scrolling past them! It's putting extra wear & tear on my fingers! :distress:

Damn wish I knew how to use that red. Looks so nice. :nod:

And disappearing threads? How could you, Mods? I didn't even get a chance to read them. Locked threads? I didn't even get to post in them. I am so upset. Mickey Mouse would be upset, too. :(

I, too, demand answers!

Sure hopes this helps, Carn. :wavey:

Lee :)

[dissention]

I completely agree. Now, if I made a racist, hateful post then I could completely understand it being deleted. But all I said was "What's going on with Burnish?"

:nod:

Or if it was a borderline psychotic jumble of words that seemed to have no explicit point other than to annoy everyone else and make you look like a fool for your stupidity when it comes to prescription drugs. ;)

Hell, those "Zeps and Sharks" posts on the Chit Chat board were offensive simply because they were so asinine that anyone who read them would instantly have 12 points shaved off of their IQ.

[dissention]

For the record, I'm on a slower computer and I'm on a dial-up connection, and I have no problems scrowling past a few sticky threads.

We must have tea and crumpets sometime while the two of us are still in the Stone Age. ;)

[Johnny Stew]

We must have tea and crumpets sometime while the two of us are still in the Stone Age. ;)

Yeah, there's like, what, three people left still on dial-up... and we're two of 'em! :p

[DeadliestPoison]

Yeah, there's like, what, three people left still on dial-up... and we're two of 'em! :p
And I'm the third one ;) :wavey:

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Wow people. Life’s too short. Bad Karma vibes happening here. Relax and let life be what it will. Harmonize and be in the moment with a humble heart. Make love not war. My suggestion to everyone is set aside some time today if only for a few seconds to enjoy a good masturbation. :thumbsup:

[jbrownsjr]

OH LORD..... :shocked:

[DeadliestPoison]

....Wow.

o_O

[amber]

OH LORD..... :shocked:
You rang? :laugh:
AMber

[dissention]

I agree with our Insane buddy, release that bad karma. ;)

[jbrownsjr]

I agree with our Insane buddy, release that bad karma. ;)


you're just mad someone put out more than you! ;)

and amber i'll deal with you later!!!! :eek:

[CarneVaca]

I made a judgement call. I don't expect everyone to agree with what I did, but I felt I needed to do it. And I don't apologize for it.

Evidently you don't have to. You've done enough apologizing already.
;)

And if you didn't delete the thread, are we to understand some other moderator did it, and then you went to the trouble of posting about it, locking the thread with your post so you could get the last word, then posting again while everybody else still couldn't? Why go through so much trouble to finish someone else's job?

[dissention]

you're just mad someone put out more than you! ;)

and amber i'll deal with you later!!!! :eek:

Well, I was always a little leery of certain acts after I viewed "There's Something About Mary," but our Insane friend has a point. ;)

[diamondsnake]

I agree with our Insane buddy, release that bad karma. ;)

Oh my stars.

[CarneVaca]

But that is just the thing- the thread wasn't going in a bad direction. Everyone was being civilized and it was not turning into a fight. When the Ledge was shut down for about a week last year there were posts on Burnish and BN.net about it and people speculated. Why can't people wonder what happened to Burnish when it has shut down? I think you should have only deleted my thread if a fight happened or if people were being nasty to each other. There is nothing on the FAQ that says we can't talk about other Fleetwood Mac websites.

Damn right! It is natural for people to be curious about what is going on on another FM board.

And the reason that I have no doubt this was arbitrary and without merit is that for months last year there were more threads here criticizing Mick's board than any other topics. And the stuff that was being posted was pretty nasty. And when I suggested to Marty that he put a stop to it because it reflected poorly on the Ledge itself, he roundly repudiated me. So I find this particular thread deletion especially curious in light of that. I suspect it had something to do with a moderator's friendship with the owner of burnish.net.

[CarneVaca]

You obviously didn't understand the concept the first time so here it is again. There are thousands of people who visit the Penguin and other fan sites and don't post at all or rarely post. That doesn't mean they don't read the threads or arrived here yesterday or 3 days ago.

Believe me, I don't need you to explain anything to me twice. My point was, so what? And it still is. So what?

Sorry, I don't know how to make change the size of the type and use the fancy red type to drive your point home once again.

Stick around. You'll learn. ;)

It seems many people including Marty missed the humor in your post and Marty commented on the hostility in your first post. You didn't point out to him in your reply that your references were supposed to be meant to be humorous and since he owns the site and you know that he's been here longer than 3 days, somehow he didn't see the humor either.

Marty can read. If he's read this whole thread by now and missed my point about the humor, that's unfortunate. But I've made the point.

I suspect you keep missing my other point. I'm not going to take scoldings from you. So I suggest you cease and desist, and go about your business.

[Johnny Stew]

And if you didn't delete the thread, are we to understand some other moderator did it, and then you went to the trouble of posting about it, locking the thread with your post so you could get the last word, then posting again while everybody else still couldn't? Why go through so much trouble to finish someone else's job?

I'm not saying whether I deleted it, or if someone else did it. The removal of the thread was made by mutual decision. Period.

The locked thread I created was in response to concern that the wrong impression was left by my last comments in the now-deleted thread.
My additional comments were made, solely because the more *I* thought about it, the more I felt that I owed someone an apology.

As I've said before, no one has to agree with it... it was a judgement call that I made.
And by all rights, I don't really owe you an explanation on this. :)

[CarneVaca]

That would be true if this were a public forum. However, this is not a public forum. This is a privately owned forum that is for entertainment purposes only. Marty owns this forum and has invested a lot of time, energy, and money into the forum. Therefore, he can do things his way. End of discussion. You do not have a say in how Marty runs his site. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. It's really that simple.

And you do not have a say in how I choose to criticise the site or make any other comments, for that matter. If you don't like it, move on to another post. It's that simple.

[CarneVaca]

If there were conversations on Burnish and BN.net about The Ledge, so be it. Our guidelines and FAQs don't apply anywhere but here.

Johnny, why didn't you ever step in when thread after thread not long ago was going for pages and pages about Mick's site. And the content of those threads made this burnish thread look like a defenseless kitten. Why isn't Mick's site immune to this kind of thing?

[diamondsnake]

Sorry, I don't know how to make change the size of the type and use the fancy red type to drive your point home once again.

It's pretty easy. There is a font selection bar above the posting box. You just have to select the text you want to change by highlighting it and then select the font, color, or size.

[CarneVaca]

Sure hopes this helps, Carn. :wavey:


You bet! ;) Your sincerity is much appreciated. :laugh:

[ThePenguin]

CarneVaca--

Even though you apparently know what I'm going to say before I post, I will repeat the bottom line once again, even though it has been expressed by others in this thread several times. This is a privately owned board-- if you don't like it, just leave. I do not spend my time thinking about how to make this the best forum possible for you personally. Hopefully, that doesn't hurt your feelings. The current set up and management of the Ledge is something that I am comfortable with continuing and I see no reason to change it at this time. You (and a few others) clearly disagree and that is duly noted. I do not feel that you speak for the vast majority and I also strongly feel that I can have rules on my own website if I want.

With respect to your red words and capital letters in the original post, I did not see the humor in it. I found it to be ordering me to do something which I have no intention of doing and it was, in my opinion, rude. There are more polite and tactful ways of bringing up an issue. A few months back someone politely did request a few less stickies at the top of one of the Ledges. I reviewed them and thought a few were outdated, so I unstuck them. A reasonable request was met with prompt compliance. I feel the stickies that are up there now are all still relevant so, for the time being, they will stay. I would like to add that pressing your 'space bar' will jump down a page anyway in most browsers so they should be simple to bypass.

- Marty

P.S.-- I am going to go now and stick a few dozen more threads for you. (THIS is a joke- the mood surely needs to be lightened here.)

[CarneVaca]

I'm not saying whether I deleted it, or if someone else did it. The removal of the thread was made by mutual decision. Period.

Mutual decision? How can that be when the thread creator is here protesting the deletion?

And by all rights, I don't really owe you an explanation on this. :)

You must feel you do, or you would have just ignored the whole thing, no?

[dissention]

My 3 cents on this whole issue:

1. There are too many stickies, but I'm sure I'll survive scrolling down a page.

2. I don't believe that threads should be locked unless things REALLY get out of hand.

3. I don't believe that threads should be deleted unless they contain offensive and innapropriate content.

4. I don't believe that the Burnish thread had anything offensive or innapropriate in it.

5. I'm ecstatic that Zeps and Sharks hit the high road, it was an eye sore. But I would not have deleted it, just locked it.

6. Release that bad karma, boy and girls.

[Johnny Stew]

And the reason that I have no doubt this was arbitrary and without merit is that for months last year there were more threads here criticizing Mick's board than any other topics. And the stuff that was being posted was pretty nasty. And when I suggested to Marty that he put a stop to it because it reflected poorly on the Ledge itself, he roundly repudiated me. So I find this particular thread deletion especially curious in light of that. I suspect it had something to do with a moderator's friendship with the owner of burnish.net.

The threads concerning Mick's site and board were allowed, because it involved very honest criticisms that fans had in regards to the way things were being run. These were people who paid their money to join the fanclub, and then were not being allowed to voice their opinions on how it was run.

It was felt that these paying members should be allowed to voice their opinions somewhere. And that others who were contemplating joining the club, had a forum in which they could ask questions and express concerns about it.

And if you'll recall, it was stated even then that derogatory comments made about the posters on Mick's board weren't acceptable here, and the moderators here stepped-in when comments made by posters on Mick's board, were being quoted here.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

Oh my stars.You saw stars? I wouldn’t wanna have to clean up that mess. How did everyone else fair? :shocked:

[sodascouts]

So I find this particular thread deletion especially curious in light of that. I suspect it had something to do with a moderator's friendship with the owner of burnish.net.

See, this is why being a moderator is so frustrating. There were people upset because they felt JS wasn't defending Tracy enough, and now there are people upset that JS is showing her favoritism. The truth is you can NEVER please EVERYONE. I feel your pain, JS!

[dissention]

You saw stars? I wouldn’t wanna have to clean up that mess. How did everyone else fair? :shocked:

*thud*

Darling, where have you been all my life?

[CarneVaca]

Even though you apparently know what I'm going to say before I post, I will repeat the bottom line once again, even though it has been expressed by others in this thread several times. This is a privately owned board-- if you don't like it, just leave.

Marty, you sure have spent a considerable amount of time inviting me to leave. You have the power if you don't want me around. Why keep sounding the same note?

All this because I questioned a couple of things on the site? Is that not allowed?

I do not feel that you speak for the vast majority and I also strongly feel that I can have rules on my own website if I want.

Have I said otherwise? You throw sarcastic comments at me saying you "hope you don't hurt my feelings" when you can't seem to take a little criticism. I asked some questions, is all.

With respect to your red words and capital letters in the original post, I did not see the humor in it. I found it to be ordering me to do something which I have no intention of doing and it was, in my opinion, rude.

Marty, I accept what's humorous to me is not humorous to everyone. If the bolding and colors bother you, can't you disable them? You have the power. And as far as my ordering you, come on. You can't possibly believe that I actually seriously was trying to order you. I find that baffling.

There are more polite and tactful ways of bringing up an issue.

With all due respect, I violated nothing in the FAQ. So I find it somewhat baffling that you are taking issue with something I posted because it doesn't meet your standards of good manners. I can accept it doesn't, but for you to make a point of it strikes me as unnecessary. I broke no rules.

P.S.-- I am going to go now and stick a few dozen more threads for you. (THIS is a joke- the mood surely needs to be lightened here.)


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[ThinLine]

Believe me, I don't need you to explain anything to me twice. My point was, so what? And it still is. So what?



Stick around. You'll learn. ;)



Marty can read. If he's read this whole thread by now and missed my point about the humor, that's unfortunate. But I've made the point.

I suspect you keep missing my other point. I'm not going to take scoldings from you. So I suggest you cease and desist, and go about your business.

I see there's nothing from you about this statement because you're always right.



This is utter nonsense. I told him "how to design and run his site?" I'd like you to quote back to me where I said that. You can't because I never said it

I did, you said it and I quoted it back to you.


I suspect you keep missing my other point. I'm not going to take scoldings from you. So I suggest you cease and desist, and go about your business

Take it, leave it, read it, don't read it, put me on your ignore function....... but you don't control my right to post when I think something is wrong. You also don't control this site, where there are stickies placed, how many there are or how Marty and the moderators run this site.

I don't need to stick around, I've been around and like I said, probably a lot longer than you. You've been back peddling for a few posts now. The only point you've made is showing everyone that you have no respect for the site owner and you're not willing to back down and think you can bully other posters, old or new into submission. For someone who doesn't like to take orders you do a good job of ordering other people around.

I don't think Marty's taking any orders from you anytime soon, but as I stated in my other post it bothers many people to see site owners harrassed and disrespected on their own site.

[DeadliestPoison]

You saw stars? I wouldn’t wanna have to clean up that mess. How did everyone else fair? :shocked:
HEE!!!

<3<3<3<3 :thumbsup:

[jbrownsjr]

Ok I didn't chime in before and still don't exactly know what was said in Burnish.

But I will say this:

I hate censorship for the most part. I belong to a "Rush" board and it makes this board look like "In The Meantime" (that was for u dissention & carne).

Unless there's libel, major insults (which sometimes is fun to read), or threatening statements being made I don't see why a thread should be locked. (having said that I did not see what you guys are talking about in the questioned thread) Anyone remember the Bob Welch thread in 1996?

I wanted to chime in because I've been here forever and I like all u guys. Even ChiliD! The way I survive these boards is my golden rule. Don't take anything personally. The internet is like a car, people get real cocky when they don't have to face other people directly. So they have extra Bravado. That's really not the case on this board. But we are not children, so I think it should be more of a group effort on the part of the older ledgies to control the censorship. And if something is locked it's always nice to give the supporting cast and explanation, and hopefully it's a good one. So if someone could post what was said about Burnish or PM me I'd appreciate it. It's our FM community and we should be able to fight, harmonize and get over it together.


Now repeat after me.
In The Meantime is a Masterpiece! :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Mutual decision? How can that be when the thread creator is here protesting the deletion?

A mutual decision made within the group of moderators.


You must feel you do, or you would have just ignored the whole thing, no?

I have seen in the past what happens if you don't feel your comments and criticisms are being handled or attended to. So I deemed it best to offer an explanation. Owed, or otherwise.

As moderators, we can't help it that we can't please all 2,384 registered members here, but we try our best to tackle issues when they arise, and we try our best to make sure that things run as smoothly as possible.

Constructive suggestions and concerns are always welcome, but, as has been said... if anyone has fundamental issues with the way things are run here, and are displeased by the decisions we make, they're more than welcome to find another message board on which to post.

Not everyone is fond of The Ledge, and we realize that. But there are several other wonderful message boards in the Mac community (though they each have their own set of rules and guidelines, too), so there are plenty of options out there. :)

[CarneVaca]

The threads concerning Mick's site and board were allowed, because it involved very honest criticisms that fans had in regards to the way things were being run.

I guess you missed the constant expletives and the constant libelous accusations that were grounds for a lawsuit if Mick and his buddy who was running the site at the time wanted to pursue it.

And if you'll recall, it was stated even then that derogatory comments made about the posters on Mick's board weren't acceptable here, and the moderators here stepped-in when comments made by posters on Mick's board, were being quoted here.

No, I don't recall. My memory must be failing me. Because I saw thread after thread full of gratuitous insults, libelous accusations and expletives.

[CarneVaca]

I did, you said it and I quoted it back to you.

You didn't, I didn't say it, and you haven't quoted it back to me. Where's the quote?

Take it, leave it, read it, don't read it, put me on your ignore function....... but you don't control my right to post when I think something is wrong.

Right back acha.

You also don't control this site, where there are stickies placed, how many there are or how Marty and the moderators run this site.

I am well aware of that. You, however, seemed to think you could do whatever you wanted and insist on discussing the Burnish situation after the moderator asked you not to. Don't you feel a little silly taking this line of argument when you were clearly so wrong?

I don't need to stick around, I've been around and like I said, probably a lot longer than you.

Whatever, dude. You've made the point, and I remain unimpressed by it.

You've been back peddling for a few posts now.

I'm not sure what back peddling is.

The only point you've made is showing everyone that you have no respect for the site owner and you're not willing to back down and think you can bully other posters, old or new into submission. For someone who doesn't like to take orders you do a good job of ordering other people around.

I have not ordered anyone around. Marty has addressed me, and I've addressed him. Why do you keep getting involved? Were you elected arbitrator?

I don't think Marty's taking any orders from you anytime soon, but as I stated in my other post it bothers many people to see site owners harrassed and disrespected on their own site.

So now, not only have you been around longer than I have, you know me so well, but you also know what all these other many people are thinking?

[CarneVaca]

Constructive suggestions and concerns are always welcome, but, as has been said... if anyone has fundamental issues with the way things are run here, and are displeased by the decisions we make, they're more than welcome to find another message board on which to post.


I keep reading that, Johnny. You guys have the power.

[ThePenguin]

Marty, you sure have spent a considerable amount of time inviting me to leave. You have the power if you don't want me around. Why keep sounding the same note?

We have not indiscriminantly 'invite' people to leave the board. *Very* few people have ever been banned. But it doesn't seem to me that you understand that the entire board, its management, and what is acceptable around here or not is going to change for *you*. It's simply not.

All this because I questioned a couple of things on the site? Is that not allowed? ... when you can't seem to take a little criticism. I asked some questions, is all.

I can take criticism. If I could not, this thread would have been deleted after the initial post and you would have been banned. The moderators have not banned people that just disagree with us. I think you know this.

Marty, I accept what's humorous to me is not humorous to everyone. If the bolding and colors bother you, can't you disable them?


Of course they could be disabled, but is that the answer? I am sure that you know proper net etiquette and capital letters with red text plus the tone and wording involved is just shouting. *Please* re-read the message and consider it from the perspective of someone that did not find the humor it in. I think you could reasonably understand why one might find it insulting.

With all due respect, I violated nothing in the FAQ. So I find it somewhat baffling that you are taking issue with something I posted because it doesn't meet your standards of good manners. I can accept it doesn't, but for you to make a point of it strikes me as unnecessary. I broke no rules.

Did I say you broke the FAQ? Has this thread been locked and the 'discussion' squelched? Have you received any strikes from this thread? 'No' on all three.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I thought that one was pretty good. I have a long list of things to do tonight that, surprisingly, do not involve The Ledge. So that's all for now.

- Marty

[ThinLine]

So now, not only have you been around longer than I have, you know me so well, but you also know what all these other many people are thinking?

I didn't state that I know what ALL other people are thinking? I stated that many people, like some of the ones who don't post but read these boards. Those same people might not post so you might not know them. Those people who you may not know don't like to see site owners harassed and disrespected on their own sites. I'm one of those people and I'll get involved aka voice my opinion, anytime I want to.

[dissention]

I didn't state that I know what ALL other people are thinking? I stated that many people, like some of the ones who don't post but read these boards. Those same people might not post so you might not know them. Those people who you may not know don't like to see site owners harassed and disrespected on their own sites. I'm one of those people and I'll get involved aka voice my opinion, anytime I want to.

Honestly, if people aren't going to stop lurking and come post, no one really cares what they think, I would imagine. If you're not an active participant, you have no right to complain. Same as with voting; don't bitch about the government if you haven't voted.

[CarneVaca]

We have not indiscriminantly 'invite' people to leave the board. *Very* few people have ever been banned. But it doesn't seem to me that you understand that the entire board, its management, and what is acceptable around here or not is going to change for *you*. It's simply not.

Au contraire. I understand it. I understand it quite well.

Of course they could be disabled, but is that the answer? I am sure that you know proper net etiquette and capital letters with red text plus the tone and wording involved is just shouting. *Please* re-read the message and consider it from the perspective of someone that did not find the humor it in. I think you could reasonably understand why one might find it insulting.

I guess we disagree. It's only one more thing. ;)

I thought that one was pretty good. I have a long list of things to do tonight that, surprisingly, do not involve The Ledge. So that's all for now.
- Marty

Yeah, me too.

[CarneVaca]

I didn't state that I know what ALL other people are thinking? I stated that many people, like some of the ones who don't post but read these boards.

Seriously, man, you don't seem to understand half of what I say. I said, "all these other many people," and that is quite different from "all." Wouldn't you agree?

Those people who you may not know don't like to see site owners harassed and disrespected on their own sites.

Well, I question where you're getting this, but it's moot, because the owner wasn't harassed or disrespected.

I'm one of those people and I'll get involved aka voice my opinion, anytime I want to.

Do you wear a cape and fly?

[CarneVaca]

Honestly, if people aren't going to stop lurking and come post, no one really cares what they think, I would imagine. If you're not an active participant, you have no right to complain. Same as with voting; don't bitch about the government if you haven't voted.

Damn good point! Wish I'd made it. ;)

Anyhoo, I'm outta this thread. Don't pull me back in.

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I have a long list of things to do tonight that, surprisingly, do not involve The Ledge. So that's all for now.

- Marty[/QUOTE]I know what he’s getting ready to do and not just once. I wish I were young again. What the heck I’ll give it another whirl. “Peace everyone.” :blob2:

[ThePenguin]

I know what he’s getting ready to do and not just once. I wish I were young again. What the heck I’ll give it another whirl. “Peace everyone.” :blob2:

Alright, I did check in again but that is really it for the night. I just wanted to comment that I thought this was VERY funny. Best laugh of the day. For the record though, it's not on the list-- not even once.

- Marty

[ThinLine]

Honestly, if people aren't going to stop lurking and come post, no one really cares what they think, I would imagine. If you're not an active participant, you have no right to complain. Same as with voting; don't bitch about the government if you haven't voted.

Fascinating. Is there something in the FAQ I missed about not being able to voice an opinion or complain until you have X number of posts? Is that number, 100, 300, 3300 or 7900? Johnny, Marty....when does a poster pass and go and have the right to voice their opinion or complain?

You may not care, but as I have explained these forums are not just for the people who participate, they are for anyone who is a fan and cares to read them. There have been many fans who have dropped out and into lurker mode over the years, it's no surprise. There are also hundreds of fans who read these forums on a regular basis and don't choose to participate, it's not mandatory.

If you or Carne or anyone else is not interested in my opinon or the opinions of people who don't have the X number of posts that has not been clarified, you have a choice to not read them or not respond to them. You and Carne and any other poster do not get to decide who has a right to voice an opinion or complain. At least not the last time I looked at the FAQ.

As shocking as this might seem to some, there are many people who do post here and won't get involved posting on this forum in threads like this because of the kind of reaction they're greeted with.

[dissention]

Fascinating. Is there something in the FAQ I missed about not being able to voice an opinion or complain until you have X number of posts? Is that number, 100, 300, 3300 or 7900? Johnny, Marty....when does a poster pass and go and have the right to voice their opinion or complain?

You may not care, but as I have explained these forums are not just for the people who participate, they are for anyone who is a fan and cares to read them. There have been many fans who have dropped out and into lurker mode over the years, it's no surprise. There are also hundreds of fans who read these forums on a regular basis and don't choose to participate, it's not mandatory.

If you or Carne or anyone else is not interested in my opinon or the opinions of people who don't have the X number of posts that has not been clarified, you have a choice to not read them or not respond to them. You and Carne and any other poster do not get to decide who has a right to voice an opinion or complain. At least not the last time I looked at the FAQ.

As shocking as this might seem to some, there are many people who do post here and won't get involved posting on this forum in threads like this because of the kind of reaction they're greeted with.

No, I was speaking towards your suggestion that there are many people who do not post but also don't like what goes on here. Why should anyone care what they think unless they post? Sounds pretty easy to understand.

Stop dressing an indefensible argument in a Gucci dress, because no matter how pretty it may look, there's nothing to it.

[ThinLine]

Well, I question where you're getting this, but it's moot, because the owner wasn't harassed or disrespected.

In your opinion, and therein lies the problem.



Do you wear a cape and fly?

Yes, did I forget to mention that? :laugh:

[ThinLine]

No, I was speaking towards your suggestion that there are many people who do not post but also don't like what goes on here. Why should anyone care what they think unless they post? Sounds pretty easy to understand.

Stop dressing an indefensible argument in a Gucci dress, because no matter how pretty it may look, there's nothing to it.

You may not care but just as I am not speaking for everyone who posts or reads these forums, there are others who are reading this and do care. There's no reason I can't voice what other people are feeling even if they don't want to or are afraid to participate for fear of the reaction they'll get if they disagree with certain posters. This thread is a perfect example of that.

I'm not dressing anything up, I'm only trying to state that just because people are not posting that they're upset, it doesn't mean they aren't out there.

[CarneVaca]

Yes, did I forget to mention that? :laugh:

Seriously, dude, that's more like it. You've done little but fight with people since you started posting. Was that the impression you wanted to make?

Why not take this opportunity to start anew?

[Mad4stevie]

Um . . . what I don't get is why people don't understand that communicating an opinion on something can be more about how it is communicated than what the actual opinion is.

People have the right to their opinions and to express them. But it is another thing entirely to be passive aggressive, discounting, and verbally abusive in expressing your thoughts on a particular issue.

Please note: I am not directing this at anyone, it is mearly a general comment on how people communicate with one another.

[CarneVaca]

Um . . . what I don't get is why people don't understand that communicating an opinion on something can be more about how it is communicated than what the actual opinion is.

People have the right to their opinions and to express them. But it is another thing entirely to be passive aggressive, discounting, and verbally abusive in expressing your thoughts on a particular issue.

Please note: I am not directing this at anyone, it is mearly a general comment on how people communicate with one another.

Please note: I'm not directing this at you (which is to say I am, since you were really directing yours at me but wouldn't admit it) but why restart this whole discussion now? Let sleeping dogs lie, no?

[David]

Not everyone is fond of The Ledge, and we realize that. But there are several other wonderful message boards in the Mac community (though they each have their own set of rules and guidelines, too), so there are plenty of options out there. :)I would like to post on Travis & George's board! Could somebody tell me its location? :wavey:

[ThinLine]

Seriously, dude, that's more like it. You've done little but fight with people since you started posting. Was that the impression you wanted to make.

Why not take this opportunity to start anew?

I see your mood has lightened from earlier today, that's certainly helping this thread.


I posted about what I thought was wrong. I didn't think I had to earn any brownie points before I could take on a serious topic. Before telling me about what I've done wrong, you might go back and read my post to Mari and then the response you gave me. I didn't need the sarcastic remark if you disagreed with my opinion.

I don't want to fight with anyone but just as you have your strong feelings about censorship and other issues, I have mine about respect and harassment. Somehow that got lost in all this tit for tat bickering. Hopefully we can agree to disagree in the future without 20 posts going back and forth.

[Johnny Stew]

Please note: I'm not directing this at you (which is to say I am, since you were really directing yours at me but wouldn't admit it) but why restart this whole discussion now? Let sleeping dogs lie, no?

This is an honest question... in what way was Mad4Stevie "re-starting" the whole discussion?
She posted two minutes after your latest response to ThinLine... it's not like the conversation had died out or had gone dormant. :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

I would like to post on Travis & George's board! Could somebody tell me its location? :wavey:

Travis & George don't have a message board. :wavey:

[CarneVaca]

This is an honest question... in what was was Mad4Stevie "re-starting" the whole discussion?
She posted two minutes after your latest response to ThinLine... it's not like the conversation had died out or had gone dormant. :shrug:

It was winding down. But I'll be glad to keep it going. ;)

Another honest question: Did you believe for a second she wasn't directing her comments at me?

[Johnny Stew]

It was winding down. But I'll be glad to keep it going. ;)

Another honest question: Did you believe for a second she wasn't directing her comments at me?

Here's my honest answer: At this point, it looks to me that there are about a half dozen people she could be directing her comments towards.

[CarneVaca]

Here's my honest answer: At this point, it looks to me that there are about a half dozen people she could be directing her comments towards.

And that's a pretty predictable answer, Johnny. God forbid you agree with me.

[Johnny Stew]

And that's a pretty predictable answer, Johnny. God forbid you agree with me.

When I agree with you, I admit it. ;) And while she very well may have been commenting on your behaviour, she also very well may have been commenting on several other people's behaviour. So I called it as I see it. :shrug:

By the way, you've gotten quite good at predicting people's responses lately... this must all be rather tedious to you now. Perhaps the old cliché is true... "familiarity breeds contempt." :shrug:

[Mad4stevie]

Please note: I'm not directing this at you (which is to say I am, since you were really directing yours at me but wouldn't admit it) but why restart this whole discussion now? Let sleeping dogs lie, no?

NO, I was not directing this at you - if I direct anything at someone specific, I usually quote them. But you do seem to know an awful lot about what everyone else's intentions are here :rolleyes: This is not about you. I was only making a general comment about how people state their opinions. However, it does make me wonder why you are so defensive.

It appears that no one can even post a general comment, disclaimer or not, without ruffling someone's feathers. :rolleyes:

And why can't I give my opinion on the tone of this thread? You appear to be doing the very thing that you are accusing others of doing - stopping the communication of ideas.

[diamondsnake]

Is there like a "three strikes you're out" system on this board? Several people have talked about strikes. I've never heard of this.

And to all moderators: The stickies are truely getting out of control. Take it or leave it. I'm not ordering you to take them down... just saying that maybe there is a more appropriate place to put them because it really makes the main page of the Rumours message board look confusing and sloppy.

[Mad4stevie]

It was winding down. But I'll be glad to keep it going. ;)

Another honest question: Did you believe for a second she wasn't directing her comments at me?

NOTE: I am directing this at you (hence the quote) ;)

I didn't realize that you were the one to determine when the thread was to wind down. After you posted that you were done with the thread, you still went on to post several other times. To me, that seems to be in contradiction to your "winding down" argument.

I don't think it is ever right for people to be verbally abusive. For you, me or anyone else. Exactly why did you feel that my comment about communication was based on you specifically? :shrug: :shrug:

[diamondsnake]

NOTE: I am directing this at you (hence the quote) ;)

I didn't realize that you were the one to determine when the thread was to wind down. After you posted that you were done with the thread, you still went on to post several other times. To me, that seems to be in contradiction to your "winding down" argument.

I don't think it is ever right for people to be verbally abusive. For you, me or anyone else. Exactly why did you feel that my comment about communication was based on you specifically? :shrug: :shrug:

Is it really neccessary to go back and analyze every single person's messages? We're all starting to look pathetic and like a bunch of losers.

[Mad4stevie]

Here's my honest answer: At this point, it looks to me that there are about a half dozen people she could be directing her comments towards.

Thank you, Johnny.

Yes, there is more than one "offender" that brought my comments to mind.

[Mad4stevie]

Is it really neccessary to go back and analyze every single person's messages? We're all starting to look pathetic and like a bunch of losers.

Huh? :confused: I just read up on this thread and responded - I apparentely missed the most important part of the discussion earlier today when I was at work :rolleyes:

If people are going to cry foul about the alleged censorship that they feel is being forced upon them on the board, I would think that a look at why such tactics may be involved in managing a message board like this is entirely appropriate. My personal opinion is that it is Marty who has committed time, energy and financial resources to making this site possible, and he alone can determine what the rules are and why they need to be followed. I also feel that the moderators on this board have done an outstanding job of handling these types of situations.

As for the stickies, geez people . . . is it really that big of an issue? That it takes an extra 1/10 of a second to scroll past them? I appreciate them, especially for the Fritz tracks.

[Johnny Stew]

And to all moderators: The stickies are truely getting out of control. Take it or leave it. I'm not ordering you to take them down... just saying that maybe there is a more appropriate place to put them because it really makes the main page of the Rumours message board look confusing and sloppy.

I have and had every intention of removing the sticky on the 'Burnish Situation' thread after Midnight, EST, tonight.

The stickies regarding the 'Discography Contest' will stay, however, as we'd like as many people as possible to be aware of the contest, and to participate.

I believe Marty would also like as many people as possible to be aware of the Fritz tracks, hence the stickies on those.

[CarneVaca]

By the way, you've gotten quite good at predicting people's responses lately... this must all be rather tedious to you now. Perhaps the old cliché is true... "familiarity breeds contempt." :shrug:

As have you evidently. Just logged on and noticed this thread was still going. The first word that popped into my head was "tedious." No fooling. I made my point. I got Marty's answers. Anything left is pure tedium indeed. I won't even bother to read further.

[The Tower]

I won't even bother to read further.

Yeah, right.... :laugh: You know you're going to look- you can't resist! If you see a new post, it could be someone challenging one of your points and then you would have to get the last word.

:laugh: ;) :thumbsup:

[dissention]

You may not care but just as I am not speaking for everyone who posts or reads these forums, there are others who are reading this and do care. There's no reason I can't voice what other people are feeling even if they don't want to or are afraid to participate for fear of the reaction they'll get if they disagree with certain posters. This thread is a perfect example of that.

I'm not dressing anything up, I'm only trying to state that just because people are not posting that they're upset, it doesn't mean they aren't out there.

:rolleyes:

No, you're pulling these mysterious lurkers out of the air to aide your argument and I just don't see its relevance. Why not just say that you don't like what's going on instead of attempting to speak for all the other mysterious lurkers? Sounds easy to me, honestly. If they do not participate on the board and don't post, who really cares what their thoughts are about this place? It has no bearing on this board or the people who enjoy posting on it.

Using your logic, next time I'm out in public and I see a few people holding a conversation that I don't like, I should just keep listening to them and curse them in my head.

[dissention]

This has gone beyond pathetic, to funny.

We stopped talking about your threads four pages ago. ;)

Oh how clever and snide of you. I do wish I had your ability to patronise and irrelevently insult and yet not be reprimanded. In fact I just wish I could be you, you supreme example of a homo sapien. Why look in if it's so offensive to you? A thread about the latest 'hottie' is offensive to my remaining sanity. A thread about Bush is offensive to my everything.

I wish you were as gifted as I am, too, but that's simply not realistic. It would require a certain sobriety to maintain, after all.

And so before I become hypocritical and actually get involved in such a waste of time

Too late. :wavey:

[Nixxxed]

Yeah, right.... :laugh: You know you're going to look- you can't resist! If you see a new post, it could be someone challenging one of your points and then you would have to get the last word.

:laugh: ;) :thumbsup:


:laugh: :nod:

[ThinLine]

:rolleyes:

No, you're pulling these mysterious lurkers out of the air to aide your argument and I just don't see its relevance. Why not just say that you don't like what's going on instead of attempting to speak for all the other mysterious lurkers? Sounds easy to me, honestly. If they do not participate on the board and don't post, who really cares what their thoughts are about this place? It has no bearing on this board or the people who enjoy posting on it.

Using your logic, next time I'm out in public and I see a few people holding a conversation that I don't like, I should just keep listening to them and curse them in my head.



I have said I don't like it and I've also said I am not speaking out for ALL mysterious lurkers

I've got it dissention, you are not interested in what other people think unless they post here and more important, unless they post their opinion everytime they see something that they think is wrong. Like I said, not everyone feels that way and if you don't like what I'm posting, ignore it, but I'll post it if I think it's relevant to the conversation. You don't get to decide what's relevant and every conversation and post does not have to appeal to you and a small group of posters. If it doesn't interest you move on or ignore it.

Get ready to hit your ignore function if you don't want to read it again.

There are people who consider themselves part of this fan community and who may not post on this board or every board or any board, and are tired of seeing site owners harassed and/or disprespected on their own sites. I'll also throw in that there are fans who do post on this forum and share these feelings but they are afraid of the backlash and bull***** from bullies, but are afraid to speak up. I'm speaking for myself and I'm stating what I know other people have voiced to me. If you and others aren't interested there's enough other conversation going on that you can debate someone else over what you think is relevant conversation for this site.

If you'd like to curse me out in your head, go right ahead and I hope you enjoy it ;)

[chiliD]

Travis & George don't have a message board. :wavey:

Well...they should. :D

[Nixxxed]

I made my point..

Yes, in post #1.


I got Marty's answers.

Yes, in post #9.


The rest? "Pure tedium indeed." Although very funny. :laugh:

Sorry, hope I'm not "interfering" again, I'd hate to step out of place and "scold" you. I only hope you can see the "humor" in this posting, as everyone else here is supposed to see the "humor" in all of your posts. :xoxo:

Oh, so that's what the smilies are for -- to lighten the mood. I get it now!!!

[ThinLine]

Well...they should. :D


Everyone should!


Seriously, every fan should experience the joy of running and moderating a message board for a few months. Truly rewarding, if you don't mind the sore butt. :laugh:

[Janet]

I just want to say there is nothing wrong in talking about drugs when you are speaking of PAST drug use. Or mentioning various drugs.

But taking them, talking about their effects and showing pics of you on them and showing pics OF the dugs and pill bottles...that's not cool. THAT is irresponsible.

That's all I have to say.

Moderating is no bigger than what everyone does.If someone sends us a message, they are moderating too.

We are just responsible to take the next time. But really, we are all moderators, watching out for everyone's best interest.

[Janet]

LUX,

You know what I mean.

[Dulcimer]

Do you ever get the feeling you've all been had? I can see how some of the people around here might have taken Carne's post as rude, but I've been around awhile though I only post once in a while, and I thought it was very funny. Carne has a knack for getting people's attention, walking right on the edge of propriety, sucking everyone in to a pretty much pointless debate, then bowing out. Meanwhile, you're carrying on the discussion. He's probably sitting back and laughing.

When Marty was able to crack a joke and leave it at that after the tense back-and-forth between him and Carne, he was probably letting us know that he was done with the matter and he wasn't going to hold a grudge. But the beat goes on somehow.

:shrug:

[ThinLine]

He's probably sitting back and laughing

is that what people do for fun?

yes, it's the internet. Humiliation and fun......it's all good fun for some :shocked:

[dissention]

Actually I notice nobody was talking about me at all and yet you managed to irrelevantly slip in some hardly effective insults. I can only imagine that this is to boost your perception of yourself.

I didn't need to say your name for people to know who I was talking about. There's only one person on this board who posts as they're supposedly ODing. Might I suggest psychotherapy.

I suggest that perhaps between the two of us it is not I who is suffering from the influence of an unknown cause of mind-alteration. Someone ought to insert something large and pointy in you. You are one most unjustifiably arrogant f*ck. Evidently, humanity has been capable of furthered greatest in many areas specifically due to 'substances' however this would be to indicate that your statements actually held up at all.

I would thank you for the compliments, but you're probably making them while under the influence, unfortunately.

[Dulcimer]

is that what people do for fun?

yes, it's the internet. Humiliation and fun......it's all good fun for some :shocked:

I don't think there's been any humiliation at all, at least not that I can see. What I see is people, yourself included, taking things too seriously and probably would have been better off staying out of the fray altogether.

[glitter_fades]

Carne has a knack for getting people's attention, walking right on the edge of propriety, sucking everyone in to a pretty much pointless debate, then bowing out. Meanwhile, you're carrying on the discussion. He's probably sitting back and laughing.


That's an interesting assessment of the situation. I was wondering myself whether this thread had a serious point or not. Carne can speak for himself about his intentions in the original post. My impression was that he had a concern about arbitrary enforcement of rules and overuse of sticky threads. I don't have an opinion on whether he posted his concerns in a friendly enough manner. Moderators can decide if rules were broken. When the thread rolled around to the topic of censorship it drew my interest. The comparisons Carne made about the liberal policy the Ledge had toward free-speepch during the fan club debate vs. arbitrary deleting of threads regarding Burnish is interesting. My only comment on this might spark a new round of heated debate, but here goes...

The entire fan club controversy had a tremendous public impact not just for long-time Ledgies or frequent posters at this board. It also had far reaching impact on the general public. Internet fan clubs are a huge unregualted enterprise which unscrupulous people have exploited to the detriment of all. A personal beef with someone at another message board which then turns into a personal feud played out across various message boards is another matter. I often agree with some of the unpopular things Carne has to say, but I disagree that something is wrong with the way Ledge moderators handled the fan club debate. The Ledge owners and mods went out on a limb to uphold the concept of free speech when it was truly worth the public good, and potentially to their own detriment. I don't see that as comparable to allowing free-wheeling debate about strictly personal disagreements. I understand others might see it differently. I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank Marty and the Ledge mods once again for providing an open forum for fans to express uncensored opinions about the fan club when nobody else with anything at stake would do the same.

Now it's time to lock this thread! (just kidding) :lol:

[Dulcimer]

The entire fan club controversy had a tremendous public impact not just for long-time Ledgies or frequent posters at this board. It also had far reaching impact on the general public. Internet fan clubs are a huge unregualted enterprise which unscrupulous people have exploited to the detriment of all. A personal beef with someone at another message board which then turns into a personal feud played out across various message boards is another matter. I often agree with some of the unpopular things Carne has to say, but I disagree that something is wrong with the way Ledge moderators handled the fan club debate. The Ledge owners and mods went out on a limb to uphold the concept of free speech when it was truly worth the public good, and potentially to their own detriment. I don't see that as comparable to allowing free-wheeling debate about strictly personal disagreements.

I can't speak for Carne, and he does a good job of that himself. I undertstand what you're saying, but I think he was pointing out that there was a lot of invective, expletives and what he called gratuitous insults in those threads, which I remember seeing myself. There is no doubt in my mind that some of those threads went overboard even though a lot of people had some genuine gripes.

Eh, like I said, Carne shoudl speak for himself. I am now helping to prolong a discussion I said should have ended by now, but these things take on a life of their own. I do think some of this was taken too seriously, but that's neither here nor there.

[Johnny Stew]

Do you ever get the feeling you've all been had? I can see how some of the people around here might have taken Carne's post as rude, but I've been around awhile though I only post once in a while, and I thought it was very funny. Carne has a knack for getting people's attention, walking right on the edge of propriety, sucking everyone in to a pretty much pointless debate, then bowing out. Meanwhile, you're carrying on the discussion. He's probably sitting back and laughing.

All I know, is that I'm buying the dude some knitting needles and yarn for Christmas. That's a more constructive hobby. ;) :xoxo:

[glitter_fades]

I think he was pointing out that there was a lot of invective, expletives and what he called gratuitous insults in those threads, which I remember seeing myself. There is no doubt in my mind that some of those threads went overboard even though a lot of people had some genuine gripes.


I disagree there was A LOT of posting that crossed the line. You're right about certain posts which did. I'm sure I was one of the guilty ones using choice words. But if I recall correctly, posts that crossed the line of vulgarity or gratuitous insults were, in fact, deleted. I didn't complain about it then and I don't disagree with enforcing decorum now, as long as the debate is not being squelched because the topic is controversial. I still don't see the two situations as comparable, but I understand what you're saying.

[jbrownsjr]

I'm getting Carne In the Meantime for x-mas. He'll need those knitting needles while he listens! :laugh:

[jbrownsjr]

My sarcasm got the nu page again! :woohoo:

[Livia]

Originally posted by Lux: I suggest that perhaps between the two of us it is not I who is suffering from the influence of an unknown cause of mind-alteration. Someone ought to insert something large and pointy in you. You are one most unjustifiably arrogant f*ck. Evidently, humanity has been capable of furthered greatest in many areas specifically due to 'substances' however this would be to indicate that your statements actually held up at all.

:eek: I was perfectly happy staying out of the fray until I saw THAT! :mad: DAYUM, that was rude!

[dissention]

Originally posted by Lux:

:eek: I was perfectly happy staying out of the fray until I saw THAT! :mad: DAYUM, that was rude!

I know, but what else can we expect, Livia? :xoxo:

[LindseysCowgirl]

Originally posted by Lux:

:eek: I was perfectly happy staying out of the fray until I saw THAT! :mad: DAYUM, that was rude!

I couldn't agree more. :distress:

[Janet]

If you think I am better than you because I don't do drugs, I do not.

If you think that I look down on those who willingly take pills/drugs just to "feel good", I do.

It's none of my business but why should we let anyone say taking drugs is great, it's cool, it makes you feel good. Drugs ultimately kill, you know that??

I literally watched my dad die of a drug overdose. I literally have watched people get very sick on drugs. Hell, I have even partken in pot smoking and gotten very ill from it.

It's no good. It's never good. It should never be seen as good.

It's not your personality, it's not your sense of humor, it's not anything about YOU Lux, we are all different kinds of people. SO DO NOT take this personally.

It's ONLY because you glorified drug use. THAT IS ALL.

[chiffon head]

I have said I don't like it and I've also said I am not speaking out for ALL mysterious lurkers

I've got it dissention, you are not interested in what other people think unless they post here and more important, unless they post their opinion everytime they see something that they think is wrong. Like I said, not everyone feels that way and if you don't like what I'm posting, ignore it, but I'll post it if I think it's relevant to the conversation. You don't get to decide what's relevant and every conversation and post does not have to appeal to you and a small group of posters. If it doesn't interest you move on or ignore it.

Get ready to hit your ignore function if you don't want to read it again.

There are people who consider themselves part of this fan community and who may not post on this board or every board or any board, and are tired of seeing site owners harassed and/or disprespected on their own sites. I'll also throw in that there are fans who do post on this forum and share these feelings but they are afraid of the backlash and bull***** from bullies, but are afraid to speak up. I'm speaking for myself and I'm stating what I know other people have voiced to me. If you and others aren't interested there's enough other conversation going on that you can debate someone else over what you think is relevant conversation for this site.

If you'd like to curse me out in your head, go right ahead and I hope you enjoy it ;)

Rock on Thin LIne! I ageree with what you're saying. I can only wish that I had the talent to express myself in written words the way some of you do around here at times, but I do agree with you and all that you have said in this thread. Thanks.

Renee

[Janet]

Renee, I know what you mean. I also feel I cannot express myself as well as some do on here:)

[dissention]

I've got it dissention, you are not interested in what other people think unless they post here and more important, unless they post their opinion everytime they see something that they think is wrong.

Exactly! You got it! :xoxo:

I could care less what people think unless they pipe up. I try not to waste my time worrying about what is bothering people I've never had the opportunity to converse with or post with; it's futile and a waste of time.

Like I said, not everyone feels that way and if you don't like what I'm posting, ignore it, but I'll post it if I think it's relevant to the conversation. You don't get to decide what's relevant and every conversation and post does not have to appeal to you and a small group of posters. If it doesn't interest you move on or ignore it.

Get ready to hit your ignore function if you don't want to read it again.

There are people who consider themselves part of this fan community and who may not post on this board or every board or any board, and are tired of seeing site owners harassed and/or disprespected on their own sites. I'll also throw in that there are fans who do post on this forum and share these feelings but they are afraid of the backlash and bull***** from bullies, but are afraid to speak up. I'm speaking for myself and I'm stating what I know other people have voiced to me. If you and others aren't interested there's enough other conversation going on that you can debate someone else over what you think is relevant conversation for this site.

If you'd like to curse me out in your head, go right ahead and I hope you enjoy it ;)

I think I'm perfectly capable of knowing when and when not to use the ignore function; that's my decision, not yours. :wavey:

Also, give me an instance of the site owners being harrassed and disrespected on this site. It's never happened from me and I've never seen others do it. Questioning what happens is much different that harrassing, but you obviously can't differentiate between the two.

Again, if they don't like what's going on, join in on the conversations and make an attempt to change things, don't just sit back and complain. Heck, what I've seen from you is just non-stop harping; I've yet to see you actually partake in an on-topic discussion.

[ThinLine]

The entire fan club controversy had a tremendous public impact not just for long-time Ledgies or frequent posters at this board. It also had far reaching impact on the general public. Internet fan clubs are a huge unregualted enterprise which unscrupulous people have exploited to the detriment of all. A personal beef with someone at another message board which then turns into a personal feud played out across various message boards is another matter. I often agree with some of the unpopular things Carne has to say, but I disagree that something is wrong with the way Ledge moderators handled the fan club debate. The Ledge owners and mods went out on a limb to uphold the concept of free speech when it was truly worth the public good, and potentially to their own detriment. I don't see that as comparable to allowing free-wheeling debate about strictly personal disagreements. I understand others might see it differently. I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank Marty and the Ledge mods once again for providing an open forum for fans to express uncensored opinions about the fan club when nobody else with anything at stake would do the same.




Great point. Many of those people who were abused by Mick's site and ripped off by the fanclub were new, or unknown, or previous lurkers. Many didn't want to speak out publicly but that didn't mean that their opinions or what happened to them was irrelevant or not to be taken seriously because every single one of them would not speak out publicly. I believe 500+ people signed the petition to remove the fanclub and make them accountable, but not every single one of those fans were known or current active posters here on the Penguin site. Not every single one of those people posted here and continued the fight to rid the fanclub of Sabremark, but the fans here knew they were out there and knew how they felt.

Kudos to the Penguin for standing up for and with the fans who had been abused, even if many of the regular posters here did not get ripped off or were not the ones thown out and abused at Mick's site. The regular posters here at the Ledge put up with a huge amount of threads about the fanclub debacle and rarely complained about its impact on this message board.....so Kudos to the members of the Ledge!

[dissention]

Oh what happy chums you are. Oh how you patronise with those stupid smilies and your statements which evidently have no basis for argument and infact appear slightly dumbfounded in the light of counter aggression. Is it little wonder that when you accuse somebody of being stupid and inferior, they might be inclined pull you up and suggest that indeed they are not? Rather they might be inclined to suggest that you are randomly picking a situation with which you seem to think you can increase your own sense of worth.

Do go ahead and reply with something resembling a statement consisting entirely of an accusation of my own drugged-out, worthless state being reason to dismiss anything I shall say. No please, do go ahead.

Oh how I do wish I could be you. A false sense of superiority appears easy to come by when you believe you are of higher human standard due to a lack of controlling stubstance intake. How heart-warming and indeed liver-warming of you to go trampling on the very people who probably need it the least.

Frankly, I think you come across as not only desperate, but starved for attention, Lux. Why else would someone continually harp on their drug use and make off-handed remarks about being called a "little slut" as a child? For some reason, you feel the need to board-hop and express these things in various ways, whether it's posting pictures of yourself with a butcher knife to your wrist or pictures of yourself swallowing pills.

If by saying those things, you think I feel that I'm superior, so be it. But at least I had the balls to say it, whereas others just rolled their eyes and passed by your deranged absurdity. Though, according to you, I'm an "unjustifiably arrogant f*ck," so you should not be surprised that I mouthed off in your direction. ;)

In the end, I could care less. I just find it amusing that, in your warped sense of reality (drug-induced or otherwise), you find it appropriate to abuse this site for such rambling and, in some cases, offensive nonsense.

That's all, I'm done with it. :wavey:

[NoThatFunny]

Originally posted by Lux:

:eek: I was perfectly happy staying out of the fray until I saw THAT! :mad: DAYUM, that was rude!

It also sounds vaguely like a threat. :(

[NoThatFunny]

Great point. Many of those people who were abused by Mick's site and ripped off by the fanclub were new, or unknown, or previous lurkers. Many didn't want to speak out publicly but that didn't mean that their opinions or what happened to them was irrelevant or not to be taken seriously because every single one of them would not speak out publicly. I believe 500+ people signed the petition to remove the fanclub and make them accountable, but not every single one of those fans were known or current active posters here on the Penguin site. Not every single one of those people posted here and continued the fight to rid the fanclub of Sabremark, but the fans here knew they were out there and knew how they felt.

Kudos to the Penguin for standing up for and with the fans who had been abused, even if many of the regular posters here did not get ripped off or were not the ones thown out and abused at Mick's site. The regular posters here at the Ledge put up with a huge amount of threads about the fanclub debacle and rarely complained about its impact on this message board.....so Kudos to the members of the Ledge!

It is beginning to look like you've brought a lot of anger to this site, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. I keep seeing you fight with people. Your first posts were to fight with Lux, who looks like the last thing she needs is to get into another fight.

Who hurt you so much on other boards that you have to bring all that baggage over here?

[GardenStateGirlie]

I don't know whether to laugh, be totally appauled or completely outraged. Wow...I do wish that I would have made a bet after the board re-opened on how long it would take for people to drive it to **** again. Unfortunately, I would have won. I can deal with some people and outright rude and self-indulgent posts for a while, but i'd be lying out of my ass if I didn't say the latest batch of "sesame streeter" activity doesn't totally boggle my mind and make me want to NOT log on (as some have chose to do). Perhaps it's time for a lot of us to re-examine why it is we began to post here in the first place. I think we'll all see that we've gotten away from what tied us all together.

[ThinLine]

Also, give me an instance of the site owners being harrassed and disrespected on this site. It's never happened from me and I've never seen others do it. Questioning what happens is much different that harrassing, but you obviously can't differentiate between the two.

Again, if they don't like what's going on, join in on the conversations and make an attempt to change things, don't just sit back and complain. Heck, what I've seen from you is just non-stop harping; I've yet to see you actually partake in an on-topic discussion.

This site owner was disrespected on this site in this thread. Just because you don't think so doesn't mean everyone agrees and sees it your way. Questioning what happens with respect for the person who provides a forum with his time money and energy is the very least someone can do. I can differentiate perfectly, Carne's original post in this thread was rude and disrespectful. We obviously have different opinions about respect, fine.

As for my harping, remembering glitterfades post about the fanclub problems last year reminds me of the timing of when you came to this site and what you were complaining about. As far as I can remember, you were not a well known poster here, you did not have a history of posting in on-topic discussions yet you were not told how to post, what was relevant to the site and you were not told about your non-stop harping about the fanclub. The long time members of this site didn't know many of the fans who came here complaining bitterly and taking over this board with endless posts about what did not interest many on this site. There was barely a complaint about having to scoll past 10 threads about the fanclub in order to get to the regular on-topic threads about the band and tour.

As I pointed out in my previous post to glitterfades, there were hundreds of fans who did not post about what happened to them and their unhappiness about the fanclub and Mick's site, but this community was interested in how they felt and wanted their support, even if that support was silent and only appeared as a signature on a petition. They didn't tell them their opinion was irrelevant and they couldn't sign the petition because they didn't want to post about their concerns and fustrations in this forum. Funny how fast you forget now that you've built up 7900 posts since you joined a short time ago.

[NoThatFunny]

This site owner was disrespected on this site in this thread. Just because you don't think so doesn't mean everyone agrees and sees it your way. Questioning what happens with respect for the person who provides a forum with his time money and energy is the very least someone can do. I can differentiate perfectly, Carne's original post in this thread was rude and disrespectful. We obviously have different opinions about respect, fine.

As for my harping, remembering glitterfades post about the fanclub problems last year reminds me of the timing of when you came to this site and what you were complaining about. As far as I can remember, you were not a well known poster here, you did not have a history of posting in on-topic discussions yet you were not told how to post, what was relevant to the site and you were not told about your non-stop harping about the fanclub. The long time members of this site didn't know many of the fans who came here complaining bitterly and taking over this board with endless posts about what did not interest many on this site. There was barely a complaint about having to scoll past 10 threads about the fanclub in order to get to the regular on-topic threads about the band and tour.

As I pointed out in my previous post to glitterfades, there were hundreds of fans who did not post about what happened to them and their unhappiness about the fanclub and Mick's site, but this community was interested in how they felt and wanted their support, even if that support was silent and only appeared as a signature on a petition. They didn't tell them their opinion was irrelevant and they couldn't sign the petition because they didn't want to post about their concerns and fustrations in this forum. Funny how fast you forget now that you've built up 7900 posts since you joined a short time ago.

It does look like you are harping, and it does look like you don't know when to stop. You seem to want to perpetuate this fight, bringing up the same things again and again after some of these issues have been put to rest. You seem to want the last word and you're going to keep posting until this thing really gets out of control and the moderators have to come in and lock the thread. Why don't you take a deep breath, forget about all this and go make a positive contribution to other threads?

[ThinLine]

It is beginning to look like you've brought a lot of anger to this site, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. I keep seeing you fight with people. Your first posts were to fight with Lux, who looks like the last thing she needs is to get into another fight.

Who hurt you so much on other boards that you have to bring all that baggage over here?

As I stated before I am tired of seeing site owners disrespected and harassed on their site, nothing more.

No one hurt me, no baggage, just tired of sitting back and not saying anything.

I notice you just got here a few days ago, but you're looking at my posting history and commenting about what I want to post about. Where have you been all this time, maybe we haven't seen your baggage yet :shrug:

This must be a new practice here at the Ledge about posting history and how much on-topic posting you have to have before your opinions are relevant or questioned.

[dissention]

This site owner was disrespected on this site in this thread. Just because you don't think so doesn't mean everyone agrees and sees it your way. Questioning what happens with respect for the person who provides a forum with his time money and energy is the very least someone can do. I can differentiate perfectly, Carne's original post in this thread was rude and disrespectful. We obviously have different opinions about respect, fine.

And just because you think so, it doesn't mean everyone agrees. :wavey:

As for my harping, remembering glitterfades post about the fanclub problems last year reminds me of the timing of when you came to this site and what you were complaining about. As far as I can remember, you were not a well known poster here, you did not have a history of posting in on-topic discussions yet you were not told how to post, what was relevant to the site and you were not told about your non-stop harping about the fanclub. The long time members of this site didn't know many of the fans who came here complaining bitterly and taking over this board with endless posts about what did not interest many on this site. There was barely a complaint about having to scoll past 10 threads about the fanclub in order to get to the regular on-topic threads about the band and tour.

Your point? I came here after getting banned from Mick's site like twenty other current posters, yet that has no bearing on this conversation one bit. In case you've forgotten, our conversation is about people who come here, don't like it, yet don't pipe up. I piped up on Mick's board (and was subsequently banned) and I pipe up on this board quite infrequently. When I see threads being locked for silly reasons or being deleted (unjustifiably in the past, IMO), it reminds me of that ****ty board over on Mick's site, which this place isn't. If you don't think I should say such things, all I can say is tough tacos.

When I joined, I didn't just use this place to complain, I used it to discuss the band, something you have rarely, if ever, done. Hell, I never even started one of the threads about Mick's board that you're currently fixated on. ;)

As I pointed out in my previous post to glitterfades, there were hundreds of fans who did not post about what happened to them and their unhappiness about the fanclub and Mick's site, but this community was interested in how they felt and wanted their support, even if that support was silent and only appeared as a signature on a petition. They didn't tell them their opinion was irrelevant and they couldn't sign the petition because they didn't want to post about their concerns and fustrations in this forum. Funny how fast you forget now that you've built up 7900 posts since you joined a short time ago.

Again, what bearing does this have in the dialogue that the two of us are having? None.

[dissention]

I think we'll all see that we've gotten away from what tied us all together.

Good point, Marissa. ;)

[ThinLine]

It does look like you are harping, and it does look like you don't know when to stop. You seem to want to perpetuate this fight, bringing up the same things again and again after some of these issues have been put to rest. You seem to want the last word and you're going to keep posting until this thing really gets out of control and the moderators have to come in and lock the thread. Why don't you take a deep breath, forget about all this and go make a positive contribution to other threads?

Why don't you skip my posts and stop telling me what I should post about and how many times I should post. You're new here so perhaps you don't know that's there's an ignore function you can use to not have to see my posts.

Have you made enough positive on-topic contributions to this forum? Let me know the number everyone's looking for, maybe they told you when you joined the site.

[dissention]

Why don't you skip my posts and stop telling me what I should post about and how many times I should post. You're new here so perhaps you don't know that's there's an ignore function you can use to not have to see my posts.

Same goes for you. Why not just skip my posts instead of telling me to use the ignore function every time there's a new reply to one of your posts?

[NoThatFunny]

I notice you just got here a few days ago, but you're looking at my posting history and commenting about what I want to post about. Where have you been all this time, maybe we haven't seen your baggage yet :shrug:


I don't have any baggage. I have been nothing but respectful to everyone so far, and I can't really say the same for you. You are constantly picking fights with other posters, and that is all I've seen from you. I don't understand why anybody would want to start off membership in a community by trying to antagonize everybody else.

Why so aggressive? Why so hostile?

[NoThatFunny]

Why don't you skip my posts and stop telling me what I should post about and how many times I should post. You're new here so perhaps you don't know that's there's an ignore function you can use to not have to see my posts.

Like you, I've visited the board for a long time before signing up. And I am perfectly aware of how to use the ignore function. I was trying to give you some advice, trying to make you see that you are looking very hostile and very aggressive from day one. Is that what you were aiming for?

You don't have to take my advice. But you seem to think everybody is trying to tell you to do something. Maybe you should read the posts a little better. The whole world isn't against you, even though you may act that way.

[kristin]

A) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?
B) These are only words on a page.
C) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?
D) I can't believe I just read almost this entire thread.
E) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?
F) This very thread has become it's own annoying sticky.
G) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?

Kristin

[ThinLine]

Same goes for you. Why not just skip my posts instead of telling me to use the ignore function every time there's a new reply to one of your posts?

I wasn't addressing that person but they were telling me I shouldn't be posting. You posted to me and I'm answering you, stop posting to me and I'll stop answering. :wavey:

[dissention]

Someone posts something slightly darker than 'what key is this song in' so they must have some attention complex. I do believe I was simply posting to another user. If you desire to keep track of our conversations, then so be it. Why must you bring into question every unrelated thing say and exactly how did you become so informed as to be able to pass judgement and say my comments are 'off-hand'. I wasn't aware that you even knew me at all, let alone my thought processes. My, you are the psychoanalyser, now imagine how many kicks you could get if you actually knew anything about me instead of making uninformed conclusions.

Ah, so now your drug-induced ramblings are just "dark."

If you want to post to just one other user, why not download AIM? Probably because that wasn't your intention, as evidenced by your repeated statements about how your thread was inappropriate and would be locked soon. You know what your motives are, you don't need me to tell you (unless you're high).

As for those pictures, well I don't remember them but I'm sure they would have been a joke. If I showed you a picture of myself lying dead in a pool of blood and vomit then it would warrant an explanation, although an appearance of such an explanation would also warrant asking the question of whether I was in fact dead. I digress.

What a sense of humor. ;) Photos of drug use and knives on peoples wrists always tickle my funny bones. I also loved the doctored photos you posted of Lindsey and Jimmy Page in bondage gear and with gags in their mouths. But, surely I can't assume that you knew such things were innapropraite, eh? No, you're just an innocent babe with "dark" issues.

Oh, and the posts about ODing and having other posters call you an ambulance also were quite funny, also.

We do find it appropriate to use this site as a space for our ramblings, much like you find it appropriate to use this space to ramble about Bette Midler or whatever political agenda is in fashion.

Last time I checked, those things weren't prohibited, unlike you're attention-grabbing antics.

[dissention]

I wasn't addressing that person but they were telling me I shouldn't be posting. You posted to me and I'm answering you, stop posting to me and I'll stop answering. :wavey:

That went over my head; I didn't get any of it. :laugh: :xoxo:

[dissention]

Once again, another statement making the bold assumption that everyone is living along the lines of good christian norm.

Another comment made under the assumption that anyone who looks down on drugs is a Christian. You cleverly edited Janet's worthwhile response to you by removing her statements about her father and his drug use. Were they not conducive to your arguments about Christians and drug use?

You're losing the argument, pack it in already. :laugh:

[chiffon head]

A) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?
B) These are only words on a page.
C) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?
D) I can't believe I just read almost this entire thread.
E) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?
F) This very thread has become it's own annoying sticky.
G) How do any of you have any time or energy for this?

Kristin

Well, I guess it's because...I do love this board and I find all of the people here fascinating and even if I don't agree with them there IS a common thread among us (I hope) and that is we all love Fleetwood Mac. :nod:

Renee

[Sugar]

As for my harping, remembering glitterfades post about the fanclub problems last year reminds me of the timing of when you came to this site and what you were complaining about. As far as I can remember, you were not a well known poster here, you did not have a history of posting in on-topic discussions yet you were not told how to post, what was relevant to the site and you were not told about your non-stop harping about the fanclub. The long time members of this site didn't know many of the fans who came here complaining bitterly and taking over this board with endless posts about what did not interest many on this site. There was barely a complaint about having to scoll past 10 threads about the fanclub in order to get to the regular on-topic threads about the band and tour.



For the record, I actually remember quite a few "old Ledgies" who complained about the "invasion" from Mick's board. Everyone here tried to be sympathetic for a while, but it got to be too much after a while. No one can stand that much constant negativity. Even when there has been a legitimate wrong.

You can tell yourself you're wearing a white hat all you want, but if everything you say is confrontational, no one's going to regard you as anything other than a troublemaker. Obviously quite a few people already do. Perhaps even more who simply haven't voiced their opinion on the subject...and we shouldn't just negate how they feel...should we?

[ThinLine]

And just because you think so, it doesn't mean everyone agrees. :wavey:



Your point? I came here after getting banned from Mick's site like twenty other current posters, yet that has no bearing on this conversation one bit. In case you've forgotten, our conversation is about people who come here, don't like it, yet don't pipe up. I piped up on Mick's board (and was subsequently banned) and I pipe up on this board quite infrequently. When I see threads being locked for silly reasons or being deleted (unjustifiably in the past, IMO), it reminds me of that ****ty board over on Mick's site, which this place isn't. If you don't think I should say such things, all I can say is tough tacos.

When I joined, I didn't just use this place to complain, I used it to discuss the band, something you have rarely, if ever, done. Hell, I never even started one of the threads about Mick's board that you're currently fixated on. ;)



Again, what bearing does this have in the dialogue that the two of us are having? None.

I've been posting for 3 days, I'm sorry my on-topic conversations aren't up to some people's expectations. I'm sure the first 3 days you got here your posts were not only about the fanclub problems and Mick's site, you jumped into 20 other converstations those first days and had a respectable amount of on-topic conversations to your credit. I'll try to live up to your example. ;)

I brought up the people who did not post on this forum about the fanclub problems because in spite of their non participation, this fan community was interested in them signing the petition and wanted their support to stand up against what they thought was wrong. The people who were posting did not say just because they don't post here what they feel about what was happening to this community is irrelevant.

You told me the following



Sounds easy to me, honestly. If they do not participate on the board and don't post, who really cares what their thoughts are about this place?

Why should anyone care what they think unless they post? Sounds pretty easy to understand.

Honestly, if people aren't going to stop lurking and come post, no one really cares what they think, I would imagine. If you're not an active participant, you have no right to complain



The relevance to your posts and the fanclub is, if the only people who signed the petitions were the 20 people you claim came here and started posting, I'm willing to bet Sabremark would still be running things. Why was anyone interested in what those 400 or so other people thought if they weren't willing to fight for months out in the open and post about it? If they weren't an active participant and weren't willing to stop lurking and come post about the fanclub, according to your statements we shouldn't have cared what they thought about the fanclub or what happened to this community because of it.

I never said you shouldn't speak up about Mick's site, I commend you and anyone else who stood up and took down the fanclub whether they did that in public on this board or by supporting the movement behind the scenes.

You and I obviously have a difference of opinion about a few things. I don't wish to censor you and I hope you do not wish to censor me or anyone else about what they feel they'd like to discuss on this board, whether they arrived 5 minutes ago or 5 yrs ago. I'd like to end this and agree to disagree and spare everyone what is becoming a very difficult and tedious argument.

[ThinLine]

For the record, I actually remember quite a few "old Ledgies" who complained about the "invasion" from Mick's board. Everyone here tried to be sympathetic for a while, but it got to be too much after a while. No one can stand that much constant negativity. Even when there has been a legitimate wrong.

When you weigh the amount of posts and threads against the amount of complaints... as I've stated, there were barely any complaints. Perhaps we remember things differently. :shrug:

You can tell yourself you're wearing a white hat all you want, but if everything you say is confrontational, no one's going to regard you as anything other than a troublemaker. Obviously quite a few people already do. Perhaps even more who simply haven't voiced their opinion on the subject...and we shouldn't just negate how they feel...should we?

And a few people have agreed with me. We also shouldn't negate others who haven't voiced their opinions but remain silent, should we?

As for my being perceived as a troublemaker, I really don't care. I stated that I felt the original post was disrespectful to the site owner and if the back and forth tit for tat discussion that has resulted makes me look like a troublemaker, so be it.

[Hawkeye]

It also sounds vaguely like a threat. :(.
.
'mure Lux is gonna hop on a plane from Austrailia to Boston just to stick a pointy object in Dissention :laugh: Not gonna happen.

[Sugar]

.
.
'mure Lux is gonna hop on a plane from Austrailia to Boston just to stick a pointy object in Dissention :laugh: Not gonna happen.

LMAO! :thumbsup:

[Sugar]

As for my being perceived as a troublemaker, I really don't care. I stated that I felt the original post was disrespectful to the site owner and if the back and forth tit for tat discussion that has resulted makes me look like a troublemaker, so be it.

The first part is obvious.

And it's not just this discussion that makes you look like a troublemaker. Your attitude with Johnny Stew was pretty strident on the conversation about Burnish. Frankly I commend him for keeping his cool...

I was going to say more, but forget it. If you're content to be thought of as a troublemaker, I'm content to see you as one, and treat you accordingly.

[David]

As for my being perceived as a troublemaker, I really don't care.We're all beautiful people, each of us embalming himself in a voluptuous misprision of the Grand Narrative that is Fleetwood Mac!

[Hawkeye]

Seeing that I'm the one who actually lives inside my head, just give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I'm much more familiar with my own intentions than you are.

Hmmmm Dissention, this seems awfully similar to what you said to me in the Tusk Survivor thread :laugh: I remeber it was don't ASSUME

[ThinLine]

Your attitude with Johnny Stew was pretty strident on the conversation about Burnish. Frankly I commend him for keeping his cool...

I commend him for his cool and admitting he made a mistake on the issue I was upset about, and standing up and saying so :wavey:

[Sugar]

I commend him for his cool and admitting he made a mistake on the issue I was upset about, and standing up and saying so :wavey:

Indeed, Johnny handled a difficult situation very well.

[The Tower]

Somewhere, deep in the bowels of the Earth, sits CarneVaca... swirling his hands around some scrying pool of bubbling clairvoyant muck, chuckling with a throaty, devilish laugh.....

Eh, whatever. Too much drama.

This thread was started half-shock value / half-true disgust and lured so many into it, including myself. I love a good scrap.

Drugs are bad for some, but not for all. Prescription drugs can be scary (I know from first hand experience), but some can handle them without problems.

I thought the "Zep Shark" thread was a little freaky, and I was scared for Lux as I have been down that same Valium induced freeeek out myself. In the end, I can't judge anyone for what they do. Once I knew the score on that thread, I could have easily not ever read it again- same for everyone else, mainly because it seemed to be a dialogue between a few friends. An extended and slightly "wasteful" thread- but no more so than a thread arguing about whether or not "When I See You Again" is a masterpiece or drivel. At least the thread was in the "Chit Chat" forum, which is where this one should be!

I think there were parts of ThinLine's posts that were valid- I think most of Dissention's posts were valid, although I disagree with all that drug user judgement. But, to each his/her own I always say. Janet was sweet and Johnny Stew was just trying to keep the peace and make this a nice place for everyone. The only thing missing was Jake/darklinensuit with a completely askew, non-sequitur post to disarm the whole thing.

Oh well, I ramble... I enjoy these kinds of threads. I think they are HIGHLY entertaining.

[dissention]

I remeber it was don't ASSUME

I didn't say it, HomerMcVie did. ;)

[dissention]

Oh f*ck the christian element. Fine, call them good taoist values, whatever. Her story about her father wasn't particularly relevant to me, so please use this as another reason to attack me.

Seeing that I'm the one who actually lives inside my head, just give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I'm much more familiar with my own intentions than you are.

Get help, dude.

[dissention]

Another highly irrelevant interjection from dissention! If you would like to execute this attempt at asserting superiority, atleast say something remotely relevant.

Get help, dude.

[dreamongypsydkm]

Yes, dude. Get help.

Some would say we all need help. Attacking eachother from all corners of the world on a Fleetwood Mac forum, telling someone you only know as a Jimmy Page icon and a few random postings to "get help", and generally being superior because it's so easy when it's only a combination of words (or paragraphs in this case) and not a real person.

Lux may or may not need help. Let's let her decide.

Get off your superiority complex, dude.

[glitter_fades]

The only thing missing was Jake/darklinensuit with a completely askew, non-sequitur post to disarm the whole thing.

I enjoy these kinds of threads. I think they are HIGHLY entertaining.

Yes, I always enjoy his posts, too. Ditto on the thread. :laugh: I've lurked forever and I don't post often, but I admit I enjoy getting into the mix now and then when there's something interesting going on. :woohoo: I think some of us have been fans too long to get much mileage out of Stevie's latest shawl change.

[tynan88]

Wow, I thought this "dialogue" was over yesterday...how wrong I was...I don't really get involved in this one but is it all necessary, wouldn't a nice PM to Johnny Stew or Neil have helped solve this whole situation int he first place :confused:

Tynan

[Hippocampus]

It does look like you are harping, and it does look like you don't know when to stop. You seem to want to perpetuate this fight, bringing up the same things again and again after some of these issues have been put to rest. You seem to want the last word and you're going to keep posting until this thing really gets out of control and the moderators have to come in and lock the thread. Why don't you take a deep breath, forget about all this and go make a positive contribution to other threads?


Funny, I recall reading that you were through with this thread on page 9 :lol:

[teedee]

Wow, you've been here, what, two, three days, and you already know me!!?



That's wonderful, but so what?



I am perfectly happy where I am. And, really, I'm not sure why it should matter to you so much where I post. :shrug:



This is utter nonsense. I told him "how to design and run his site?" I'd like you to quote back to me where I said that. You can't because I never said it. For someone who claims you know me so well, it's weird that you missed the humor in my post, what with the references to Mickey Mouse and all. The people around here who have grown accustomed to my style of posting probably got that.




This is Carnes Answer to everything. "It was a joke= You failed to see my humor "or the other famous quote is "I'd like for you to go back and quote me where I said that". Example, ok he may have not said in exact words " how to design or run his site" so no Carne you didnt use such words, but telling the moderater you want such "sticky posts, etc.. to be place somewhere else because you dont like where he put them, or you want answers NOW as to why a post was locked or deleted, that equals, you dont like the way he runs his site, or the way he conducts his website. And yes its all very plain there in black and white that that is what was meant. So you asking for Quotes, or stating it was meant as a joke, is a just a lousy excuse for your rude behaviour against the owner of this website. AS for people here knowing the nature of your posts, I think we all know your Nature and their intents, but they are not posted as you stated them to be "out of humor" , and everyone knows that. ITs purely for the sake of starting controversy. The only thing people find funny about your posts, is how you have so much time to make a mountain out of a mole hill. This is a bulletin board owned privately, its simple, if you dont like the rules, then you dont have to participate . If you have questions, be respectful when asking. You get more with honey than with sour grapes. But its clear that you like the sour grapes better. If these rules get you so upset, and i remind you , its only a bulletin board, then I suggest, you should use all this vented up energy for something more worth while.

[teedee]

Evidently you don't have to. You've done enough apologizing already.
;)

And if you didn't delete the thread, are we to understand some other moderator did it, and then you went to the trouble of posting about it, locking the thread with your post so you could get the last word, then posting again while everybody else still couldn't? Why go through so much trouble to finish someone else's job?




"the Last Word and Why go thru so much trouble"
Now this I find Funny carne.

Johnny Stew, keep up the good work.

[teedee]

And you do not have a say in how I choose to criticise the site or make any other comments, for that matter. If you don't like it, move on to another post. It's that simple.




If you dont want your posts criticized, then change the tone of your posts. If your posts are meant to be funny, then why isnt anyone laughing at them, they are only laughing at you. You know first hand your posts dont start out as a joke, its only when you get in hot water, that you use that as an excuse. If you were kidding, you wouldnt reply to others in an angry tone for so long before saying , you failed to miss the humor.

[teedee]

Please note: I'm not directing this at you (which is to say I am, since you were really directing yours at me but wouldn't admit it) but why restart this whole discussion now? Let sleeping dogs lie, no?



OMG let it go! Maybe she was joking and you failed to see the humor. Sound familiar.


What she said was honest.

You make comments that are later on supposed to be looked at as humor, but then when some one else replys to you in the same tone, you make no bones about them bein sarcastic, and befor you ask me to quote you I am not referring to your response to the above post. Let it go.

[teedee]

Do you ever get the feeling you've all been had? I can see how some of the people around here might have taken Carne's post as rude, but I've been around awhile though I only post once in a while, and I thought it was very funny. Carne has a knack for getting people's attention, walking right on the edge of propriety, sucking everyone in to a pretty much pointless debate, then bowing out. Meanwhile, you're carrying on the discussion. He's probably sitting back and laughing.

When Marty was able to crack a joke and leave it at that after the tense back-and-forth between him and Carne, he was probably letting us know that he was done with the matter and he wasn't going to hold a grudge. But the beat goes on somehow.

:shrug:


"Sitting back and Laughing" no, he is probably sitting there reading, fighting with himself lol, tapping his fingers dying to post, but actually wants to keep his word that he is thru with the thread. Give him time, he will start a new thread, if he hasnt already, lol.

[teedee]

Exactly! You got it! :xoxo:

I could care less what people think unless they pipe up. I try not to waste my time worrying about what is bothering people I've never had the opportunity to converse with or post with; it's futile and a waste of time.



I think I'm perfectly capable of knowing when and when not to use the ignore function; that's my decision, not yours. :wavey:

Also, give me an instance of the site owners being harrassed and disrespected on this site. It's never happened from me and I've never seen others do it. Questioning what happens is much different that harrassing, but you obviously can't differentiate between the two.

Again, if they don't like what's going on, join in on the conversations and make an attempt to change things, don't just sit back and complain. Heck, what I've seen from you is just non-stop harping; I've yet to see you actually partake in an on-topic discussion.


are you now asking for Quotes? are you taking over where carne left off? joking of course.

[Mari]

Let it go.

Perhaps you should take your own advice?

[teedee]

Exactly! You got it! :xoxo:

I could care less what people think unless they pipe up. I try not to waste my time worrying about what is bothering people I've never had the opportunity to converse with or post with; it's futile and a waste of time.



I think I'm perfectly capable of knowing when and when not to use the ignore function; that's my decision, not yours. :wavey:

Also, give me an instance of the site owners being harrassed and disrespected on this site. It's never happened from me and I've never seen others do it. Questioning what happens is much different that harrassing, but you obviously can't differentiate between the two.

Again, if they don't like what's going on, join in on the conversations and make an attempt to change things, don't just sit back and complain. Heck, what I've seen from you is just non-stop harping; I've yet to see you actually partake in an on-topic discussion.

Yet when one of these new posters or lurkers do post, people blast them cause they have so few posts and that they dont know you well enough to make such a statement or whatever is in their post. Thats not really a nice way to treat someone new or lurker as you call them, . It doesnt take much to get the nature of a thread or an individual posters thoughts if you just read some . so if they chime in as a newbie or whatever they have just as much right. So there damned if they do and damned if they dont. As for you not seeing disrespect in someones posts, is a line of what you consider disrespectful. All caps and fire red letters posted in a I want to no Now additude is not to be looked at as friendly. And please dont say it was a joke, Now, cause that was stated much too late by carne, by stating his mickey mouse theory.. Mickey mouse maybe a kiddish statement, but it was used in a negative way, not a kiddish way.

[teedee]

It does look like you are harping, and it does look like you don't know when to stop. You seem to want to perpetuate this fight, bringing up the same things again and again after some of these issues have been put to rest. You seem to want the last word and you're going to keep posting until this thing really gets out of control and the moderators have to come in and lock the thread. Why don't you take a deep breath, forget about all this and go make a positive contribution to other threads?


harping? arent you doing just that by continuing to respond to his post that he directed to dissention , when all he is doing is making a point. We all know about the fan club mess, but he was making a point to dissention. you say he is continuing the issue here but he is still in a discussion. if your done with it, then move on. so while he is in discussion still, instead of telling him to go post somewhere else, take your own advice, and post a positive post elsewhere. let them discuss it.

[teedee]

As I stated before I am tired of seeing site owners disrespected and harassed on their site, nothing more.

No one hurt me, no baggage, just tired of sitting back and not saying anything.

I notice you just got here a few days ago, but you're looking at my posting history and commenting about what I want to post about. Where have you been all this time, maybe we haven't seen your baggage yet :shrug:

This must be a new practice here at the Ledge about posting history and how much on-topic posting you have to have before your opinions are relevant or questioned.


Someone brought up the fact about double identities and second accounts. I think in certain cases of new posters, and I dont Mean all the new posters, they kind of have a familiar tone to them, no? lol.

[teedee]

Like you, I've visited the board for a long time before signing up. And I am perfectly aware of how to use the ignore function. I was trying to give you some advice, trying to make you see that you are looking very hostile and very aggressive from day one. Is that what you were aiming for?

You don't have to take my advice. But you seem to think everybody is trying to tell you to do something. Maybe you should read the posts a little better. The whole world isn't against you, even though you may act that way.



"is that what you were aiming for" hmmm didnt someone else say that? sniff sniff, it smells funny.

[teedee]

havent been up on the threads lately been busy, and i was just posting to this thread as i was reading it. sorry if it looked as tho i wanted this thread to continue. I was just responding , glad if it is over.

[Dulcimer]

havent been up on the threads lately been busy, and i was just posting to this thread as i was reading it. sorry if it looked as tho i wanted this thread to continue. I was just responding , glad if it is over.

Some people don't know when to quit. Your posts are kinda sad. You remind me of the person who shows up at 1 a.m. to the party that just ended, takes a bottle of vodka and ends up drinking it alone in the back alley.

Give it up.

[kenzo]

This is the funniest thread ever - this must be what the Jerry Springer show is like.

[Johnny Stew]

You remind me of the person who shows up at 1 a.m. to the party that just ended, takes a bottle of vodka and ends up drinking it alone in the back alley.

Uncle Tony?!?!

[sara1998]

:nod:

Or if it was a borderline psychotic jumble of words that seemed to have no explicit point other than to annoy everyone else and make you look like a fool for your stupidity when it comes to prescription drugs. ;)

Hell, those "Zeps and Sharks" posts on the Chit Chat board were offensive simply because they were so asinine that anyone who read them would instantly have 12 points shaved off of their IQ.

To be quite honest, that was absolutely the stupidist **** I've ever read on this board... and I've been here a LONG time.... :shrug:

Maria

EDIT: OOPS! I musta been Uncle Tony at 1 AM with the vodka bottle...... :rolleyes: LOL!!!

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Enough already! I only ventured into that thread a couple of times and it baffled me! Maria is entitled to her opinion and doesn't need to be insulted. She's been through enough. Of course this is just my opinion and probably not worth much

Pip

[sara1998]

I'm awfully sorry Your Highness. Next time some of us are chatting we'll make sure to accomodate for your advanced level of ****.

Perhaps we could talk about, like which guy is like totally just like the hottest thing out.

And I'm so sorry, you drug addictidness, but when have you ever heard me talk about ANYONE who is the hottest thing out. LAY OFF THE DRUGS... JUST SAY NO.

How about the next time you're chatting, do it on AIM, so you don't have to strain yourself up to my advanced level of ****....

Maria a.k.a. Your Highness--- no PUN intended.

[skcin]

And please, anything but 'just say no'. This irritates me to the point of laughter, then back to sheer annoyance, and then to a state of bafflement via periods of hair loss and fist clenching.

Oh, so now you hate Nancy Reagan, huh?!?! Is that it?!?!

Paula :laugh:

[amber]

Um yeah, I guess so. Did she say that?

Hello. I know nothing about you, your situation and your reasoning but stop that, for my sake. Everything I know about drugs I learnt from a brochure so I know that people only take them because of peer pressure. People on drugs are weak. Go life!

Oh well alright then, I'll stop at once. But only because I stepped up to the challenge of 'just say no'. You will of course be held responsible when I kill myself 3 weeks later after ceasing to take my prescribed stabilisers.
Hi, Lux
I think you're funny :wavey: That's it, just wanted to let you know!
AMber

[amber]

Egads! A post intended to compliment me? Shucks. A fan hey, would you like to be my stalker? Actually I've already acquired an obsessed, jealous internet stalker via Darrelle. T'is rather amusing but it's also comforting to known that between our lands we have a body of water currently going by the 'Pacific Ocean'. Well it actually doesn't matter what it refers to itself as or indeed if it is capable of self-comprehension. I digress.
:laugh:
In the last correspondence I received from said body of water, was, in fact, signed "Pacific Ocean" or, rather, "Love Always, Pacific Ocean".
I'm not sure I'm right, or that i read everything, but it seemed to me that recently someone would say something rude-ish to you, then you would answer, and suddenly at your answer everyone would be all "oh-my-god!!!! :mad: That was soooo rude!!!) Even though what the person said to you may also have been rude. I'm not sure if that's exactly what's happened, it's just what it seemed to me. And no, I couldn't be your stalker anyway...I didn't say I LOVED you with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns, I said i think you're funny. See the different level of commitment there? :laugh: :laugh:
AMber

[amber]

Well that's exactly what happened, and continues to happen. This is very representative of life in general. One is allowed to insult and even violently kick Lux, but I show any of the same in return and I'm reprimanded. I then I complain about the hypocrisy and am reprimanded and further insulted.

I must say I am dissapointed in your level of commitment to me. Surely you'd be willing to trace my actions and snicker in excitement when I post something? Perhaps you'd like to go back and read everything I've written so as to get a full understanding of the person whom you might consider following and just making life hell for in general? A small ask.
Well, I would love to, but my correspondence with the Pacific Ocean keeps me pretty busy...sorry :p I'll do my best, though.
AMber

[½ ¡Ñ§ÅñË ®]

I personally have learned a lot from reading this thread. I began my encounter with other Mac/Stevie fans many years ago when a fan magazine “The Velvet Underground” started. Other fan oriented activities, clubs and magazines followed. They’ve come and gone and a few were fun while they lasted. The reason many of these fan activities failed was because of s*!t like I’ve read in this thread. A bunch of grown people acting like children. Every time the fans get together it doesn’t take long before the crybabies and s*!t stirrers try to ruin the beauty by being a beast. Jealous, greedy, controlling aholes that have nothing better to do then spread they’re vial poison. It doesn’t take long to figure out who will be trouble. On the surface they look normal but when you look closely they’re spirit is dark and corrupted. I call them familiar spirits. I can see them dying inside. They’re heart full of cobwebs. They open a window to the world and let they’re skeletons dance. It’s sad because they’re true spirit is bound and crying in the dark. Desperately waiting for the character on the surface to look inward and set it free but it knows. It knows it can never be truly free until the character on the surface has the honesty and maturity needed to give it life. Don’t get me wrong. The true spirit has an opinion and gets very angry when a wrong has been done but because of its pure love it knows when to stand back. It waits just below the surface allowing the character to absorb the knowledge and wisdom it feeds on. Please everyone. Let this thread cease. The familiar spirits will always be amongst us but the true spirits must see we have made a mistake. We created an arena for the skeletons to dance. Stand back and absorb the knowledge and wisdom. Suffocate the familiar spirits by refusing to recognize them. They hate lack of recognition. It drives them crazy and gives us strength. Play on familiar spirits. Thank you for the knowledge and wisdom. I’ve said what I said and take my leave of you. :blob1:

[dreamongypsydkm]

Whoa, that was an intense entry. And yet he/she chose to end it with this?:

:blob1:

[amber]

I personally have learned a lot from reading this thread. I began my encounter with other Mac/Stevie fans many years ago when a fan magazine “The Velvet Underground” started. Other fan oriented activities, clubs and magazines followed. They’ve come and gone and a few were fun while they lasted. The reason many of these fan activities failed was because of s*!t like I’ve read in this thread. A bunch of grown people acting like children. Every time the fans get together it doesn’t take long before the crybabies and s*!t stirrers try to ruin the beauty by being a beast. Jealous, greedy, controlling aholes that have nothing better to do then spread they’re vial poison. It doesn’t take long to figure out who will be trouble. On the surface they look normal but when you look closely they’re spirit is dark and corrupted. I call them familiar spirits. I can see them dying inside. They’re heart full of cobwebs. They open a window to the world and let they’re skeletons dance. It’s sad because they’re true spirit is bound and crying in the dark. Desperately waiting for the character on the surface to look inward and set it free but it knows. It knows it can never be truly free until the character on the surface has the honesty and maturity needed to give it life. Don’t get me wrong. The true spirit has an opinion and gets very angry when a wrong has been done but because of its pure love it knows when to stand back. It waits just below the surface allowing the character to absorb the knowledge and wisdom it feeds on. Please everyone. Let this thread cease. The familiar spirits will always be amongst us but the true spirits must see we have made a mistake. We created an arena for the skeletons to dance. Stand back and absorb the knowledge and wisdom. Suffocate the familiar spirits by refusing to recognize them. They hate lack of recognition. It drives them crazy and gives us strength. Play on familiar spirits. Thank you for the knowledge and wisdom. I’ve said what I said and take my leave of you. :blob1:
um....I'm just gonna Stand Back.... :confused:

[sara1998]

Um yeah, I guess so. Did she say that?

Hello. I know nothing about you, your situation and your reasoning but stop that, for my sake. Everything I know about drugs I learnt from a brochure so I know that people only take them because of peer pressure. People on drugs are weak. Go life!

Oh well alright then, I'll stop at once. But only because I stepped up to the challenge of 'just say no'. You will of course be held responsible when I kill myself 3 weeks later after ceasing to take my prescribed stabilisers.

Let me tell you a little something about me. This way when your foot is in your mouth, you won't choke on it.

I lost my husband 15 months ago to drugs, alcoholism and suicide. I don't hold myself responsible for his death, let alone yours. If that is the way you wish to live your life, that's your choice. No one can change you but you. However, your drug "glamorizing" post was all but that. I've done lots of drugs. I've also learned to stop. I've also suffered 15 months of pure hell from what drug, alcohol abuse, and suicide can do to a wife and 5 year old. No, honey, you don't know my situation, and I don't know yours. I DO know what it's like to live on drugs, and live with an abuser. I'm sure you can't say you've walked a mile in my shoes. Until then, please think before you post.

Oh, ya. Go life!
Maria

[Bumperke]

Can someone please close this thread, it's starts to get irrellevant. When people want to fight over a forum, it has nothing more to do with what this is all about.
It's about FM, and not where, when and how to insult people,

So, close the thread.

Will

[HomerMcvie]

It had been FOUR days since anyone had posted........but, you did, THUS bringing it back to the top. Congratulations! :o

[tynan88]

You scared me HomerMcVie! I saw this wasthe last thread posted in and thought you had started the fire again :shocked: :laugh:

Tynan

[HomerMcvie]

You scared me HomerMcVie! I saw this wasthe last thread posted in and thought you had started the fire again

Nopey. Not me. Believe it or not, I'm fairly passive. When this is no longer fun, I'll just walk away from this. Life is stressful enough. :xoxo:

[Bumperke]

It had been FOUR days since anyone had posted........but, you did, THUS bringing it back to the top. Congratulations! :o

How nice this sarcasm :laugh: , i don't see the point to argu with you, dear HomerMcvie. It' s an meening, nothing more or less.
BTW i was not asking you, but one of the modurators. :nod:

Will :D

[HomerMcvie]

:) But you do understand that these posts drop by the wayside, UNTIL somebody makes another post, right? You resuscitated it. :lol:
And, btw, we've had enough censorship around here lately, so asking a mod to delete it, well................. :rolleyes: