Kerry files FEC complaint against critical veterans group

[gldstwmn]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/20/kerry.swiftboat/index.html

Swift boat veterans release new anti-Kerry ad
Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 5:59 PM EDT (2159 GMT)

(CNN) -- The Kerry presidential campaign on Friday filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission, alleging ads from an anti-Kerry veterans' group are inaccurate and "illegally coordinated" with Republicans and the Bush-Cheney campaign.

The complaint was filed against Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. It states that "based on recent press reports and SBVT's own statements there is overwhelming evidence that SBVT is coordinating its expenditures on advertising and other activities designed to influence the presidential election with the Bush-Cheney campaign."

Members of that group have denied any coordination with the GOP campaign, as have members of the Bush-Cheney team.

A spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign dismissed the complaint as "frivolous and false," but said it welcomed a broader look at the role 527 groups -- named for a section of the federal tax code -- have played this election season.

"For months we've been trying to shine a spotlight on the coordination between the John Kerry campaign and 527 groups," Bush campaign spokesman Taylor Griffin told CNN.

Kerry's complaint came as the veterans' group released a new ad Friday, reaching back more than 30 years to take issue with some of Sen. John Kerry's comments as an anti-war activist.

The 30-second spot compares Kerry's comments upon his return home from service to confessions sought through torture inflicted on American captives in Vietnam.

The ad, part of a $600,000 ad buy in battleground states, is funded primarily by Republican contributors from President Bush's home state of Texas, according to federal records.

"This Republican front group for Bush is out of credibility after being caught in lie after lie day after day," said Kerry campaign press secretary David Wade.

The group, however, has no direct connection to the Bush campaign, and group members said they have acted independently of the president's re-election effort.

It was during a campaign stop Thursday that Kerry, a highly decorated Vietnam veteran, said the fact that Bush won't denounce the ads "tells you everything you need to know -- he wants them to do his dirty work."

The White House rejected that criticism. "I do think that Senator Kerry losing his cool should not be an excuse for him to lash out at the president with false and baseless attacks," White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Friday.

The latest ad from the swift boat group selects quotes from Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 about fellow soldiers. He is seen saying, "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads," "randomly shot at civilians," and "razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn."

Selected comments
Not shown on the ad is Kerry's preface to those comments, in which he said he is reporting what others said at a conference of Vietnam veterans in Detroit. Instead, a member of the Swift Boat group refers to the statements as "the accusations that John Kerry made against the veterans who served in Vietnam."

A Swift Boat member says, referring to captives in Vietnam, "That was part of the torture, was to sign a statement that you had committed war crimes" and says Kerry "betrayed us" by his comments upon his return.

Another says Kerry "gave the enemy for free what I, and many of my comrades in North Vietnam, in the prison camps, took torture to avoid saying. It demoralized us."

An official transcript of Kerry's testimony shows he was referring to the meeting in Detroit, part of what was called the Winter Soldier investigation. He told the Senate committee that at that meeting "many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia" and relived the "absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do."

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

Kerry has said he regrets some of the comments he made as a young man just back from war three decades ago, but he stands by his protests against the Vietnam war.

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth recently released another ad accusing Kerry of lying to get his Bronze Star and a Purple Heart, a charge Kerry and some veterans with whom he served vigorously dispute.(Full story)

"The bottom line is this: The United States Navy awarded John Kerry a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts for his service in combat," said campaign spokesman Wade.

The "Republicans running these lying ads" told the Navy of Kerry's leadership decades ago, "before Karl Rove's attack squad convinced them to lie about it because George Bush is afraid to talk about jobs, health care, and making America safe," Wade said.

Ad's reach
Meanwhile, a new survey suggests the ad about Kerry's service medals is reaching a wide audience.

More than half the country has seen or heard about that ad, a survey by the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey found.

The ad, began airing in battleground states August 5. But the survey of more than 2,200 people between August 9 and August 16 found it was the heavy news media attention that gave the ad its reach.

"The influence of this ad is a function not of paid exposure but of the ad's treatment in free media," said Dr. Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the survey, in a written statement. "The advertisement has received extensive coverage, particularly on conservative talk radio and cable news channels, and has been the subject of some attention in broadcast news as well."

Of all people polled, 59 percent believe Kerry earned all of his medals, while 21 percent believe he did not. Responses fell largely along party lines -- more than three-fourths of Democrats believe Kerry earned his medals, while 59 percent of Independents do, and only 39 percent of Republicans.

Bush has said he would not question Kerry's service in Vietnam. He has called for an end to all political ads being put out by 527 committees. Many such groups favor Kerry.

The Bush campaign has challenged Kerry to echo the call for an end to the 527 ads. And the Kerry campaign has challenged Bush to denounce the ads attacking the Democrat's military service.

Sen. John McCain of Arizona, a Republican and former prisoner of war in Vietnam, has also urged the White House to condemn the swift boat ads. Bush has not done so.

McClellan asked "where has the Kerry campaign been for the last year while more than $62 million in funding from these shadowy groups have been used to negatively attack the president?"

One, MoveOn, released an ad accusing Bush of using family connections to get into the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War, and then failing to report for duty for part of his time. The Bush campaign says the president fulfilled his Guard obligations and was discharged honorably.

Kerry has denounced the MoveOn ad.

The Kerry campaign also released its own ad Thursday, featuring former Green Beret Lt. Jim Rassmann -- the man Kerry pulled from the water in the now-disputed engagement. "All these Viet Cong were shooting at me," Rassmann says. "I expected I'd be shot. When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine."

[strandinthewind]

Good article - thanks for posting.

Interestingly, if W condemns the ads, how does that benefot Kerry. I think all it will do is make W look good. I mean he in a rounbd about way already agrees the ads are false because he consistently says Kerry served with honor and W has said he is against such ads, granted that is not condemning these exact ads. So, if W condemn them, what does that get Kerry that W is not already "giving" Kerry?

[dissention]

Thanks, Golide, that's a good article and more power to him. These ads and the actions of these vets are vile, pure filth.

On another note, I want Bush to lose just so I can see Alphonso Jackson get the pink slip. He's a real motherf*cker.

[gldstwmn]

Thanks, Golide, that's a good article and more power to him.

:xoxo: Happy to be of service. :) Now, for dessert: Cake. ;)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040821/ap_on_el_pr/bush_swift_boats_1
Volunteer Links Anti-Kerry Flier to GOP

26 minutes ago

By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer

CRAWFORD, Texas - A volunteer for John Kerry said Friday he picked up a flier in Bush-Cheney headquarters in Gainesville, Fla., promoting Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group the Bush campaign has insisted for weeks it has no connection to.

The Kerry campaign e-mailed the flier to news organizations Friday, declaring that the Bush-Cheney campaign was "busted" for coordinating "in their smear campaign against John Kerry."

At Bush-Cheney campaign headquarters outside Washington, spokesman Steve Schmidt said: "The Bush-Cheney campaign has nothing to do with that piece of paper. ... I don't know how it showed up at the campaign headquarters."

"The Bush-Cheney campaign would object to any flier like this being displayed in any Republican headquarters," said Schmidt.

The flier distributed at Alachua County Republican Party headquarters promotes a weekend rally sponsored by "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" and other groups.

Bill Shilling, a Kerry volunteer in Gainesville, says he went to the GOP offices there Thursday and picked up the flier from a pile of literature on the table.

"The flier they gave me was on the same table as some Bush-Cheney bumper stickers," said Shilling. "I asked them if the Swift boat veterans were coming to Gainesville, and the woman I talked to said yes."

Shilling said he went back to Kerry headquarters and turned over the flier.

"I thought there was supposed to be some separation between Bush-Cheney and the Swift boat controversy but I didn't understand there was a big deal about this," said Shilling. "I think this whole thing attacking Kerry's war record is a diversion by Bush-Cheney from the real issues of the campaign."

Financed by a Texas businessman with longtime ties to prominent Republicans in the state, including President Bush, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth sponsored an ad featuring several Vietnam veterans who accuse Kerry of lying about the circumstances surrounding events for which he won his medals. Kerry received a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts while in Vietnam.

The anti-Kerry group distributed a second commercial to the news media and said it would begin airing the ad next week in Pennsylvania, Nevada and New Mexico, the last a state Bush plans to visit next Thursday. The ad intersperses clips of a youthful Kerry talking about war atrocities during an appearance before Congress in 1971 with images of veterans condemning his testimony.

The Kerry campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission alleging Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was illegally coordinating its efforts with the Bush-Cheney campaign.

The Kerry campaign cited recent press reports and the group's own statements. The Bush campaign denied the allegation, as did the organization that aired the ad.

[77Rumours77]

Dissention....

I love your sig picture with the bush girls! Its hilarious!

[dissention]

:xoxo: Happy to be of service. :) Now, for dessert: Cake. ;)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040821/ap_on_el_pr/bush_swift_boats_1
Volunteer Links Anti-Kerry Flier to GOP

:eek: LMAO! :lol: :xoxo:

[dissention]

Dissention....

I love your sig picture with the bush girls! Its hilarious!

It's not the two drunks, it's Charla and Mirna from The Amazing Race! :laugh: :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

It's not the two drunks, . . .

That is tasteless even for you :cool:

[77Rumours77]

It's not the two drunks, it's Charla and Mirna from The Amazing Race! :laugh: :xoxo:

HA! LOL, I thought it was..! :laugh: :thumbsup:

[dissention]

That is tasteless even for you :cool:

You obviously haven't seen the photo of one them sprawled out topless over a picnic table with a beer in hand.

[irishgrl]

If I woulda had anything in my mouth, I woulda choked! HOW FUNNY!
guys, Im joinin this little soiree so make room, make room!
ps: you probably know me better as celtic4evr, but this is my REAL name!
pps: who stole my homer? (that's one of my nicknames...dont ask)

[strandinthewind]

You obviously haven't seen the photo of one them sprawled out topless over a picnic table with a beer in hand.

No I have not and I am not sure I would believe it (it is easy to make stuff on the net up) without verification from the photographer.

But, and on another topic, people ofter accuse the US press of not investigating things. Every talk show this evening and every 30 or so minutes on CNN an related and other similar stations, they ran the ad and Kerry's response to it. What more can the media do?

[dissention]

No I have not and I am not sure I would believe it (it is easy to make stuff on the net up) without verification from the photographer.

Trust me, it's real. ;)

But, and on another topic, people ofter accuse the US press of not investigating things. Every talk show this evening and every 30 or so minutes on CNN an related and other similar stations, they ran the ad and Kerry's response to it. What more can the media do?

Their job, for one.

There are numerous ways the media can be biased against someone and concentrate mainly on one side, it's very easy to do, Jason. And it's an unwritten rule that for every liberal you ahve on, you have two conservatives. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Trust me, it's real. ;)

Even if it is, it is tacky to exploit it. These girls are not running for office. It is just tasteless and you know it. But, anything to poke fun and demean anything associated with W is fodder for the far far left :shrug:



Their job, for one.

There are numerous ways the media can be biased against someone and concentrate mainly on one side, it's very easy to do, Jason. And it's an unwritten rule that for every liberal you ahve on, you have two conservatives. :laugh:

Well, that is what they are doing :shrug: Even Scarborough had both sides on this evening and grilled the side challenging Kerry noting the guy he had on was the only guy who actually served with Kerry and one of the only guys whose story had not changed over the years. I mean they are reporting it and the talk show hosts are giving both sides of the story and engaging debate in it. So, I think the press is doing their job. If not, what else can they do?

I mean even, of all people, CBN questioned the integrity of the SBV and said the real issue is how can Kerry claim his war hero status, not his 20 plus years of govt. service, as his main strongsuit and then say the U.S. and he and others acted horribly in Nam. While that is a generalization, it is a real issue :shrug: I think Kerry can combat this by saying he served with honor, but he tried to correct the bad things he saw going on when he got back. It is an explanation, but the fact still remains Kerry seemingly wants to rely on his hero status in a war he said the U.S. behaved badly in. So, we shall see how this comes out in the end.

[dissention]

Even if it is, it is tacky to exploit it. These girls are not running for office. It is just tasteless and you know it. But, anything to poke fun and demean anything associated with W is fodder for the far far left :shrug:

We can argue about this until the cows come home and while I agree that putting that picture out there was tasteless, these girls invited it by becoming a part of their fathers campaign. I also found their behavior of sticking their tongues out at passerbys and reporters was tasteless, but what can I expect? Don't even get me started on Noel. I've never heard of a Bush would din't have a run-in with the law or overindulged in substances.

Well, that is what they are doing :shrug: Even Scarborough had both sides on this evening and grilled the side challenging Kerry noting the guy he had on was the only guy who actually served with Kerry and one of the only guys whose story had not changed over the years. I mean they are reporting it and the talk show hosts are giving both sides of the story and engaging debate in it. So, I think the press is doing their job. If not, what else can they do?

If you think so, fine. But they didn't do their job when it came to iraq, they're not doing it now. Faux News has yet to report about the questionable backgrounds of Jerome Corsi and John O'Neill, other than a passing reference. neither have MSRNC or CNN. They are not doing their jobs by selecting what little bits to report, darling. Present it all or present none. You need to read Media Matters or TVNewLies.org.

Also, to use Scarborough as an example of someone presenting both sides is ridiculous, especially when you consider that his whole show is devoted to tearing down Kerry and his campaign, and building up Bush. No sale. :xoxo:

[gldstwmn]

If I woulda had anything in my mouth, I woulda choked! HOW FUNNY!
guys, Im joinin this little soiree so make room, make room!
ps: you probably know me better as celtic4evr, but this is my REAL name!
pps: who stole my homer? (that's one of my nicknames...dont ask)

Come on down! :blob1: :woohoo: Welcome. :)

[strandinthewind]

We can argue about this until the cows come home and while I agree that putting that picture out there was tasteless, these girls invited it by becoming a part of their fathers campaign. I also found their behavior of sticking their tongues out at passerbys and reporters was tasteless, but what can I expect? Don't even get me started on Noel. I've never heard of a Bush would din't have a run-in with the law or overindulged in substances.

So, these pics were not avail prior to the girls being part of ths campaign :shrug: As far as for the sticking out of the tongue - it is rather irrelevant. But, I know I know - anything to bash Bush - which includes demeaning his irrelevant daughters :laugh: :cool:

If you think so, fine. But they didn't do their job when it came to iraq, they're not doing it now. Faux News has yet to report about the questionable backgrounds of Jerome Corsi and John O'Neill, other than a passing reference. neither have MSRNC or CNN. They are not doing their jobs by selecting what little bits to report, darling. Present it all or present none. You need to read Media Matters or TVNewLies.org.

Also, to use Scarborough as an example of someone presenting both sides is ridiculous, especially when you consider that his whole show is devoted to tearing down Kerry and his campaign, and building up Bush. No sale. :xoxo:

Yes they have. I heard it today? I also heard it in MSNBC and Scarborough went into it as did the guests on his show. It is being discussed all over the t.v. this evening - I saw it :shrug: Media Matters is the left version of NewsMax and you know it :laugh:

Again, I think you want Dan Rather or some other reporter to scream and shout "THEY ARE LIARS: and then cut off the mic. on the SBV and then throw a pie in their face :laugh: Personally, I like that they present both sides and parties from each side debating it. I like to make up my own mind :shrug:

P.S. I watched Scarborough - that is what he did. If you did not watch it, you do not know. I do agree though MS is a schmo. - but he did this one okay :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

You obviously haven't seen the photo of one them sprawled out topless over a picnic table with a beer in hand.

Oh gawd. Send me the link. :lol:

[gldstwmn]

Their job, for one.



I heard Chris Matthews is coming around, finally.

[strandinthewind]

I heard Chris Matthews is coming around, finally.

He like others had both sides on - it was a debate. I like debates. I like to make up my own mind as opposed to some one telling me their version only.

[dissention]

So, these pics were not avail prior to the girls being part of ths campaign :shrug: As far as for the sticking out of the tongue - it is rather irrelevant. But, I know I know - anything to bash Bush - which includes demeaning his irrelevant daughters :laugh: :cool:

No, it's been out there for around three years. ;) I can't believe you haven't seen it!

I think their run-ins with the law and their public behavior says a lot, but if you don't, whatever.

Yes they have. I heard it today? I also heard it in MSNBC and Scarborough went into it as did the guests on his show. It is being discussed all over the t.v. this evening - I saw it :shrug: Media Matters is the left version of NewsMax and you know it :laugh:

Show me a transcript where Jerome Corsi's racist rantings were mentioned. I submit you cannot. They do not report the full story, to say they do is to ignore reality. And Media Matters is hardly NewsMax.

Again, I think you want Dan Rather or some other reporter to scream and shout "THEY ARE LIARS: and then cut off the mic. on the SBV and then throw a pie in their face :laugh: Personally, I like that they present both sides and parties from each side debating it. I like to make up my own mind :shrug:

I think they should stop indulging in this bull****, so... :wavey:

[gldstwmn]

He like others had both sides on - it was a debate. I like debates. I like to make up my own mind as opposed to some one telling me their version only.

I'm talking about his two year diatribe against Gore. Apparently, he didn't care for the outcome of his efforts.
More specifically, I'm talking about Michelle Malkin on his show last evening.

[dissention]

I heard Chris Matthews is coming around, finally.

:rolleyes: Hell no.

He's trying to score points after the outrage over his DNC coverage. He's a racist bastard with no relevance. I'd rather swallow needles than watch that self-congratulatory, ****-spewing brown-noser anyday.

[dissention]

He like others had both sides on - it was a debate. I like debates. I like to make up my own mind as opposed to some one telling me their version only.

Yes, and when these ads first surfaced, they only had those vile men on to talk about them. The damage has been done and it's not on John Kerry, I'll tell you that.

[gldstwmn]

:rolleyes: Hell no.

He's trying to score points after the outrage over his DNC coverage. He's a racist bastard with no relevance. I'd rather swallow needles than watch that self-congratulatory, ****-spewing brown-noser anyday.


I just watched the Malkin clip. Did you know that he used to work for Tip O'Neill? I knew Tip's neice, Susan, when she lived in a styrofoam house in New Mexico in 1981. Those were the days. :laugh: I digress. I don't watch Hardball because I think he's on at the same time as Lou Dobbs. :) :thumbsup: I've been watching Keith Olbermann more and more though. Are you listening to Malloy right now?

[strandinthewind]

No, it's been out there for around three years. ;) I can't believe you haven't seen it! I think their run-ins with the law and their public behavior says a lot, but if you don't, whatever.

tacky tacky tacky - but funny I will admit. Again, what does their behaviour have to do with their father? I submit nothing other than embarrass him, which is your intent :nod: ;)

P.S. How do you know it is real?

Show me a transcript where Jerome Corsi's racist rantings were mentioned. I submit you cannot. They do not report the full story, to say they do is to ignore reality. And Media Matters is hardly NewsMax.

Media Matters is hardly a non-biased source. Do not even try to say that :laugh:

Secondly, look at the transcripts of this eveningg talk shows - I heard it with my own two ears.

I think they should stop indulging in this bull****, so... :wavey:

Well, they are not indulging it in the sense they are promoting it favorably. They are investigating it, which is their job you assert they are not doing. Almost all of them have come out somewhat to totally against the SBV. I think that is doing their jobs and I do not know what more they could do and you have not provided any other things they could do.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, and when these ads first surfaced, they only had those vile men on to talk about them. The damage has been done and it's not on John Kerry, I'll tell you that.

The polls do not show that though. The polls show the vet support for Kerry is falling. I tink a CBS poll today showed the slipping. Maybe as a result of the debates and the talk shows haveing both sides on will get Kerry's numbers back up.

[dissention]

tacky tacky tacky - but funny I will admit. Again, what does their behaviour have to do with their father? I submit nothing other than embarrass him, which is your intent :nod: ;)

P.S. How do you know it is real?

Their behavior reflects on him and his "values," i.e. how he raised his daughters.

And it's real because one of her classmates took it and posted it on the school server, only to have it removed...but not until it was passed around. :laugh:

Media Matters is hardly a non-biased source. Do not even try to say that :laugh:

Secondly, look at the transcripts of this eveningg talk shows - I heard it with my own two ears.

I'm not saying it isn't biased, but it's nowhere nearly as bad as NewsMax. Unlike NewsMax, they don't have KKK connections. ;)

And you link to the transcripts, I always go out of my way to fetch things for your southern ass. :p :laugh:

Well, they are not indulging it in the sense they are promoting it favorably. They are investigating it, which is their job you assert they are not doing. Almost all of them have come out somewhat to totally against the SBV. I think that is doing their jobs and I do not know what more they could do and you have not provided any other things they could do.

They've already investigated it and found that these men were full of ****. Why do they continue to air this filth? Because they haven't presented everything they found that proves them to be liars, they're milking it.

[dissention]

The polls do not show that though. The polls show the vet support for Kerry is falling. I tink a CBS poll today showed the slipping. Maybe as a result of the debates and the talk shows haveing both sides on will get Kerry's numbers back up.

Yesterday's poll numbers showed that veteran support has stayed the same. Surely it couldn't have drastically changed overnight. :shrug:

[dissention]

I just watched the Malkin clip. Did you know that he used to work for Tip O'Neill? I knew Tip's neice, Susan, when she lived in a styrofoam house in New Mexico in 1981. Those were the days. :laugh: I digress. I don't watch Hardball because I think he's on at the same time as Lou Dobbs. :) :thumbsup: I've been watching Keith Olbermann more and more though. Are you listening to Malloy right now?

Yup. :D

Olberman and Dobbs are awesome, too. ;) :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

And you link to the transcripts, I always go out of my way to fetch things for your southern ass. :p :laugh:

www.foxnews.com
www.abc.com
www.msnbc.com
www.nytimes.com
www.cnn.com

:cool:

[gldstwmn]

www.foxnews.com
www.abc.com
www.msnbc.com
www.nytimes.com
www.cnn.com

:cool:

Those are links to the home pages, not the actual transcripts. :distress:

[dissention]

www.foxnews.com
www.abc.com
www.msnbc.com
www.nytimes.com
www.cnn.com

:cool:

Direct links from the TALK SHOW transcripts, there's no way I'm slogging through Faux News.com or MSRNC.com, not even for you. ;)

[strandinthewind]

Those are links to the home pages, not the actual transcripts. :distress:

I know - I was being a smart ass!!!! :cool: :wavey: :p :D

[strandinthewind]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/?querytext=scarborough&id=3053419&action=fulltext

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/

there are others, but you can get the drift with this.

BTW - the poll I referred to earlier was just mentioned again - it is a CBS poll saying 55% of vets support W and 37% support W - only (I think) 200 vets were polled.

[77Rumours77]

If I woulda had anything in my mouth, I woulda choked! HOW FUNNY!
guys, Im joinin this little soiree so make room, make room!
ps: you probably know me better as celtic4evr, but this is my REAL name!
pps: who stole my homer? (that's one of my nicknames...dont ask)

Hey Welcome! :thumbsup: :wavey: :D

[gldstwmn]

BTW - the poll I referred to earlier was just mentioned again - it is a CBS poll saying 55% of vets support W and 37% support W - only (I think) 200 vets were polled.

What? :confused:

[dissention]

BTW - the poll I referred to earlier was just mentioned again - it is a CBS poll saying 55% of vets support W and 37% support W - only (I think) 200 vets were polled.

Huh? :shocked:

[strandinthewind]

What? :confused:


oops - me and my typos :laugh: 55 for W and 37 for Kerry!

[irishgrl]

Jason, where do YOU get your news, and which do you find most credible?
Dissention, where do YOU get your news, and which do YOU find most credible?

You guys make me wish I had cable~ or at least that I had my satelite hooked up.....

[strandinthewind]

My homepage is cnn.com (hey - I live in Atlanta and have partied with Jane Fonda - what can I say!!!). So, I usually see that a few times a day. At least twice a day, i go to the NY Times web page, the Fox web page, and the Atlanta Journal Constitution. I also read Newsweek and Time everyweek as well as The Economist (at least most of it) every month - I usually read it on Delta when I am flying!!!!

I also flip through the cable talk shows at night.

So, I keep up :laugh: I try to stay away from the extreme sites like newsmax, media matters, etc.

As for most credible, I think all of the main sources report the big articles the essentially the same. So, I think Fox, Cnn, MSNBC, and ABC, are all credible in their individial reporting (by lines) on the big articles and when they do not use AP or another syndicated and widely picked up source. So, I think from that point, they are all accurate. Editorial pages are a little different, but that is an opinion more than straight reporting and all the sources have all sides and varying degress of credibility :shrug: So, I am not one to say that an article on a main topic from Fox is not credible when CNN or some other more mainstream media is reporting the same incident.

:cool:

[dissention]

Jason, where do YOU get your news, and which do you find most credible?
Dissention, where do YOU get your news, and which do YOU find most credible?

You guys make me wish I had cable~ or at least that I had my satelite hooked up.....

Two words: Lexis Nexis.

That's all you'll ever need. ;) If you don't have access to it, go with Google.

Another FANTASTIC source is to go to Pluck.com and download the RSS Feed. Once you have it installed, go to DemocraticUnderground.com, click on the Latest Breaking News forum, and once you're in there, click on RSS Feed (it should be in red). It'll save the DU feed in your reader from Pluck. What it is is like a tap into the wire services, you get every article and story imaginable the minute it comes out. Probably 500 articles a day get put into the feeds from Reuters and The Associated Press and other news organizations. It's invaluable.

As for most credible, make sure the article has some mention of Reuters or the Associated Press. If not, it might be just a tad questionable, so I'd Google a quote from the article just to make sure that the article isn't full of spin. Newsweek is also a good place to get stuff. TVNewsLies.org is fantastic, they archive tons of reputable articles.

And subscribe to The NAtion if you can, they have a four issue trial. :D

As for least credible, where do I begin? :laugh:

-Faux News
-MSNBC (not so much biased, just wrong all the time)
-NewsMax (they have ties with the KKK)
-National Review
-Judith Miller from the New York Times
-New York Post

[dissention]

I also flip through the cable talk shows at night.

Ah, yes, the excellence in journalism that is Paula Zahn, Bill O'Reilly, Deborah Norville, Sean Hannity, and Joe Scarborough. ;) :laugh:

Stop torturing yourself and just watch Olbermann! :p

[strandinthewind]

Stop torturing yourself and just watch Olbermann! :p

I do - but I like to watch them all. The only one I really cannot watch at all is Hannity because I think he is unintelligent. I can take someone having a different opinion, but I do not suffer fools very well, esp. when they are just shouting idiotic things.

[strandinthewind]

I thought this was a good article - I think Bob Dole has hit the nail on the head. I think people cannot reconcile why Kerry protested against Nam when he returned but is touting his work there as the fundamental underpining of his platform for the Presidency. I reconcile them in my head by noting that Kerry volunteered to go to Nam and served with honor. W used family connections to stay here and it is apparent he did not work that hard, if at all. Cheney got five deferments because according to him he had other or better things to do (I forget the exact quote). So, Kerry winds there. Regarding Kerry's post-service actions, I think Kerry was pissed off that he and others were sent to Nam based on Johnson's lie in the Gulf of Tonkin. I think he realized the US had gotten itself into a quagmire and was refusing to admit defeat and come home. I think he saw the horror there (friends killed or hurt - shooting innocent Vietnamese because who knows if they were secretly armed, etc.). I think Kerry decided to do something about that. I think that is a valid choice that IMO has honor, like his service record. As for his test. before Congress, alot of the cut off heads, etc., stuff was based on things that soldiers told him they saw. He was not saying he saw what they said THEY saw. He also did not say every soldier there was doing this - yet that is the lasting implication errouneous as it may be. So, I think Kerry wins here as well.

The problem is most Americans see Kerry as a traitor because he dared to raise his voice against the govt. They cannot see it was a noble and honorable thing to do and that it helped in some way to stop more of our soldiers from dying in a war that we lied to get into and that we were refusing to withdraw from just so we could save face. How that is not an honorable thing, I will never know :shrug:


August 23, 2004
Kerry TV Ad Pins Veterans' Attack Firmly on Bush
By ADAM NAGOURNEY and JIM RUTENBERG

enator John Kerry released a television advertisement yesterday blaming President Bush for a campaign by a "front group" of veterans that Mr. Kerry said had smeared his Vietnam record, as he intensified his drive to gain control in a fight that some Democrats said could undermine his campaign for the presidency.

Mr. Bush's campaign denied any involvement with the effort by the veterans challenging crucial parts of Mr. Kerry's war record and sent a letter to television station managers calling the new Kerry advertisement libelous.

But at the same time, Bob Dole, the Republican presidential candidate in 1996 and a World War II veteran, called on Mr. Kerry to apologize to Vietnam veterans in a television interview on CNN. He appeared to get behind some of the accusations raised by the group, when its most serious contentions have been undermined by official records and conflicting accounts.

"He's got himself into this wicket now where he can't extricate himself because not every one of these people can be Republican liars,'' said Mr. Dole, whose right arm was left limp by a war injury. "There's got to be some truth to the charges," he said.

Mr. Dole also sought to put the focus as much on Mr. Kerry's antiwar activities as on his war record, noting testimony Mr. Kerry gave to a Congressional committee in 1971.

"I mean, one day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons,'' Mr. Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.' ''

The exchanges came as aides in both camps said the dispute over Mr. Kerry's war record was now at the center of the race in the week leading into Mr. Bush's nominating convention in New York City. And some Democrats close to Mr. Kerry said they feared that the very thing that had led the party to see him as its strongest challenger to Mr. Bush, his record as a decorated combat veteran in Vietnam, was now threatening to undermine his candidacy because of criticism raised by some former Vietnam veterans.

Mr. Kerry's aides said this latest advertisement, as well as a speech he would give in New York on Tuesday, was intended to move the debate away from a discussion about Mr. Kerry's Vietnam service and to focus it instead on what they contended was a history of dirty tricks by Republicans around Mr. Bush and his father over the years.

Mr. Kerry's advisers had originally planned not to spend any money on advertising in August, but shifted gears last week in the face of concern voiced by Democrats outside the campaign that Mr. Kerry was not moving aggressively enough to deal with this threat.

"Bush smeared John McCain four years ago," the narrator says, referring to attacks by outside groups on Mr. McCain when he challenged Mr. Bush for the Republican presidential nomination in 2000. "Now, he's doing it to John Kerry."

"George Bush: Denounce the smear," the announcer says. "Get back to the issues. America deserves better."

To back up its statements, Mr. Kerry's advisers noted that the Swift boat group got much of its initial financing from two men who had supported the political endeavors of Mr. Bush and his father: a Texas commercial real estate executive, Harlan Crow, and a Texas home builder, Bob J. Perry. Mr. Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove, has described Mr. Perry as a friend. And a member of Mr. Bush's veterans advisory panel, Kenneth Cordier, a retired colonel, resigned this weekend after appearing in the Swift boat group's latest advertisement. The campaign said he did so without its knowledge.

Mr. Bush's advisers said Mr. Kerry's campaign was engaged in an exercise of six degrees of separation and said they had no connections to the group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The group has disputed major details of Mr. Kerry's account of his war injuries in Vietnam in television advertisement and a book.

Of the new Kerry advertisement, Ken Mehlman, Mr. Bush's campaign manager, said it was "misleading: the ad wrongly states that the Bush campaign is associated with this campaign, which we're not."

Mr. Mehlman added: "They have not presented any evidence, and there is absolutely no evidence that the president is any way behind this. They have no plan for the future, and they are unwilling to defend their record of the past 20 years, so therefore they want to talk about what happened 35 years ago."

Mr. Kerry's advisers said they believed that voters would turn against Mr. Bush if they were convinced that he was behind what several described as unethical campaign behavior.

A senior Kerry adviser, Tad Devine, said in an interview that there had been a number of instances over the years in which outside groups had run damaging advertisements against Democrats in races involving Mr. Bush or his father.

"When those connections are made in this campaign and are imputed to this president, it's going to be a very bad thing for the president," Mr. Devine said.

Bill Carrick, a Democratic strategist who is not involved in the presidential race, also said: "It may be voters presume there are two sides in this contest and one side is attacking the other and they blame Bush for the attacks."

Still, Mr. Carrick and other Democrats said that this was a risky moment for Mr. Kerry's campaign.

"They've turned this into a raging national press story," Mr. Carrick said of the Swift boat group. "It is certainly keeping Kerry from discussing his own issues and agenda and getting on the offensive."

Another Democrat close to the campaign, who asked not to be quoted by name, was more dire.

"When you're basically running on your biography and there are ongoing attacks that are undermining the credibility of your biography, you have a really big problem."

In a sign of the concern, Mr. Kerry's aides marched across the Sunday morning news talk shows, denouncing Mr. Bush and the veterans' group at every opportunity. Mr. Kerry's vice-presidential nominee, John Edwards, campaigning in his home state of North Carolina, called the advertisements lies and predicted they would backfire on the president.

"The American people will hold him accountable," Mr. Edwards said of Mr. Bush. "I think the American people will figure out the truth."

In attacking Mr. Kerry, Mr. Dole took a notably different position from another prominent Republican veteran, Senator McCain of Arizona. Mr. McCain has denounced the advertisements and defended Mr. Kerry's military record.

A spokesman for Mr. Kerry, Chad Clanton, said, "It's unfortunate that Senator Dole is making comments that U.S. Navy records prove false."

Mr. Dole, in his CNN interview, suggested that he agreed with one of the accusations of the Swift boat group that Mr. Kerry was in a rush to obtain his Purple Hearts to meet a regulation that allowed soldiers to leave the war zone after winning three.

"John Kerry's a hero," Mr. Dole told Wolf Blitzer. "But what I will always quarrel about are the Purple Hearts. I mean, the first one, whether he ought to have a Purple Heart - he got two in one day, I think. And he was out of there in less than four months, because three Purple Hearts and you're out."

Mr. Kerry did not receive two Purple Hearts for events of the same day. He received them for the events of Dec. 2, 1968, Feb. 20, 1969, and March 13, 1969. Mr. Kerry often acknowledges that his wounds were not severe, but he still has shrapnel in his left thigh from the firefight that led to his second Purple Heart.

When Mr. Blitzer pointed out that Mr. Kerry had said on "Meet the Press" earlier this year that he had gone too far in his original Congressional testimony, Mr. Dole responded: "Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam."

Mr. Kerry's communications director, Stephanie Cutter, said the new Kerry advertisement would be broadcast in the same states where the Swift boat group had placed its advertisement: Wisconsin, Ohio and West Virginia. "We are watching what they are doing this week, and we will follow them," Ms. Cutter said.

Mr. Bush's advisers said Mr. Dole was acting on his own in appearing on CNN. Indeed, at one point, the former senator from Kansas characteristically offered a view on the campaign that presumably would not have been appreciated by the White House.

"I'd say right now Kerry has the edge," Mr. Dole said. "I'm looking at the Electoral College in the battleground states. And even though they didn't get a bounce in the convention, you know, people got to know John Kerry. I think most people liked what they saw. There's a little backlash now because of all the Vietnam thing. But he's probably ahead."


David Stout contributed reporting for this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/politics/campaign/23swift.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=

[dissention]

I do - but I like to watch them all. The only one I really cannot watch at all is Hannity because I think he is unintelligent. I can take someone having a different opinion, but I do not suffer fools very well, esp. when they are just shouting idiotic things.

Have you read "Lies and the Lying Liars That Tell Them"? The chapter on Insanity and Colmes is great, the whole book is, actually. I just got another copy in paperback because Franken updated it. :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

Have you read "Lies and the Lying Liars That Tell Them"? The chapter on Insanity and Colmes is great, the whole book is, actually. I just got another copy in paperback because Franken updated it. :thumbsup:

I LOVE that he updated the re-release in paperback :laugh:

I read most of it. I tend to get bored with books like that because I, being anal retentive :laugh: - spend HOURS looking up all of the stuff :laugh:

[dissention]

I thought this was a good article - I think Bob Dole has hit the nail on the head. I think people cannot reconcile why Kerry protested against Nam when he returned but is touting his work there as the fundamental underpining of his platform for the Presidency. I reconcile them in my head by noting that Kerry volunteered to go to Nam and served with honor. W used family connections to stay here and it is apparent he did not work that hard, if at all. Cheney got five deferments because according to him he had other or better things to do (I forget the exact quote). So, Kerry winds there. Regarding Kerry's post-service actions, I think Kerry was pissed off that he and others were sent to Nam based on Johnson's lie in the Gulf of Tonkin. I think he realized the US had gotten itself into a quagmire and was refusing to admit defeat and come home. I think he saw the horror there (friends killed or hurt - shooting innocent Vietnamese because who knows if they were secretly armed, etc.). I think Kerry decided to do something about that. I think that is a valid choice that IMO has honor, like his service record. As for his test. before Congress, alot of the cut off heads, etc., stuff was based on things that soldiers told him they saw. He was not saying he saw what they said THEY saw. He also did not say every soldier there was doing this - yet that is the lasting implication errouneous as it may be. So, I think Kerry wins here as well.

The problem is most Americans see Kerry as a traitor because he dared to raise his voice against the govt. They cannot see it was a noble and honorable thing to do and that it helped in some way to stop more of our soldiers from dying in a war that we lied to get into and that we were refusing to withdraw from just so we could save face. How that is not an honorable thing, I will never know :shrug:

Bob Dole has no point and the Viagra has obviously taken a toll on his mental stability. What he's saying is that because there is a good number of vets who are speaking out against Kerry, some of what they're saying must be true. What horse****. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. I can spek out with 100 other people at my side that George Bush used to shoot heroin, but that doesn't make any of it true.

I think it's really sad if Americans see Kerry as traitor for what he said about Vietnam when he had the support of the majorit yof the country when he said those things. There is no question that what he said happened, it's well-documented. We committed atrocities, there is no denying it. We did not jsut shoot them, we maimed them, tortured them, cut off their limbs, raped the women, you name it and we did it. Yet these vile men are spinning what he said and it's despicable to the point where I think they're embarassments to this country.

Kerry IS a war hero, like him or not.

[dissention]

I LOVE that he updated the re-release in paperback :laugh:

I read most of it. I tend to get bored with books like that because I, being anal retentive :laugh: - spend HOURS looking up all of the stuff :laugh:

Go to a right-wing blogger, they haven't been able to really find anything wrong with what Franken put in his book. That says it all. Except they thought he was serious about a White House aide breaking Helen Thomas's jaw and hip. And sent her a letter asking if it was true. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Go to a right-wing blogger, they haven't been able to really find anything wrong with what Franken put in his book. That says it all. Except they thought he was serious about a White House aide breaking Helen Thomas's jaw and hip. And sent her a letter asking if it was true. :laugh:
:laugh: :eek: :eek: :laugh:
OH Helen!!!!!!!!!

[strandinthewind]

Kerry IS a war hero, like him or not.

Most def. :nod: :nod: :nod:

But, that is not my point. My point was many Americans think it was wrong of Kerry to testify in front of Congress like he did. They see that action as tantamount to being a traitor and that that took and still takes away from any heroism he could have possibly and did in fact achieve while there. These people cannot make the distinction that Kerry was not calling all of the the good soldiers bad soldiers. Kerry was reporting what the people interviewed said they saw and the things he personally saw - he was trying to end a war we had no business fighting but could not get out of without losing face, etc. How that is not a noble gesture that only a hero could make I will never know? Yet, people cannot see it that way and that is sad. AND - it still happens today - look at the Dixie Chicks :shrug:

[CarneVaca]

I think people cannot reconcile why Kerry protested against Nam when he returned but is touting his work there as the fundamental underpining of his platform for the Presidency.

I think this is a correct assessment. There's only one way Kerry could have made a clear statement in this campaign about Vietnam: vote against the Iraq war and explain that just as we had gone to war under false pretenses in Vietnam, we went to war under false pretenses in Iraq. Explain that just as he opposed the war in Vietnam after he returned, he opposed Iraq now.

Trying to paint himself as some kind of ultra-patriot for having fought in a war that he himself decried with such vehemence was way more than a mere tactical error. It was a huge strategic blunder.

[Patti]

Most def. :nod: :nod: :nod:

But, that is not my point. My point was many Americans think it was wrong of Kerry to testify in front of Congress like he did. They see that action as tantamount to being a traitor and that that took and still takes away from any heroism he could have possibly and did in fact achieve while there. These people cannot make the distinction that Kerry was not calling all of the the good soldiers bad soldiers. Kerry was reporting what the people interviewed said they saw and the things he personally saw - he was trying to end a war we had no business fighting but could not get out of without losing face, etc. How that is not a noble gesture that only a hero could make I will never know? Yet, people cannot see it that way and that is sad. AND - it still happens today - look at the Dixie Chicks :shrug:

You know, Jason, ITA. It seems pretty easy to reconcile in my head, particularly if you either lived through Vietnam or read any of the history about it. I was just a kid, but even I remember all the controversy surrounding all the atrocities that happened there. I don't think Kerry was wrong at all to report what he saw/heard. And you're right, at that time a lot of vets were trying to just get us the hell out of there after their experiences. I don't get it. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

I think this is a correct assessment. There's only one way Kerry could have made a clear statement in this campaign about Vietnam: vote against the Iraq war and explain that just as we had gone to war under false pretenses in Vietnam, we went to war under false pretenses in Iraq. Explain that just as he opposed the war in Vietnam after he returned, he opposed Iraq now.

Trying to paint himself as some kind of ultra-patriot for having fought in a war that he himself decried with such vehemence was way more than a mere tactical error. It was a huge strategic blunder.


Oh good lord are you starting this again :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Oh good lord are you starting this again :laugh:

Incidentally, I have my suspicions that The Scream was stolen by Kerry's campaign. They're probably going to use it as as campaign poster, seeing that the likeness to Kerry is uncanny.

[strandinthewind]

Incidentally, I have my suspicions that The Scream was stolen by Kerry's campaign. They're probably going to use it as as campaign poster, seeing that the likeness to Kerry is uncanny.


Yes it is :laugh: :cool:

[dissention]

Most def. :nod: :nod: :nod:

But, that is not my point. My point was many Americans think it was wrong of Kerry to testify in front of Congress like he did. They see that action as tantamount to being a traitor and that that took and still takes away from any heroism he could have possibly and did in fact achieve while there. These people cannot make the distinction that Kerry was not calling all of the the good soldiers bad soldiers. Kerry was reporting what the people interviewed said they saw and the things he personally saw - he was trying to end a war we had no business fighting but could not get out of without losing face, etc. How that is not a noble gesture that only a hero could make I will never know? Yet, people cannot see it that way and that is sad. AND - it still happens today - look at the Dixie Chicks :shrug:

And what I'm saying is that looking down on Kerry for his congressional testimony is wrong. You don't just read what he said and say, He was wrong. You need to look at the context in which it was said AND look at the time sin which it was said. At the same time, his sentiments were the sentiments of the majority of America. So, I think they are in the wrong to judge him based on those statements.

[dissention]

An example of what we're dealing with:

This morning on Washington Journal on C-SPAN, there was a new host named Jason Damata of mixed ethnicity. A Republican called in and told him to "go back to parking cars."

:cool:

[strandinthewind]

An example of what we're dealing with:

This morning on Washington Journal on C-SPAN, there was a new host named Jason Damata of mixed ethnicity. A Republican called in and told him to "go back to parking cars."

:cool:
Was his former occupation a valet :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

And what I'm saying is that looking down on Kerry for his congressional testimony is wrong. You don't just read what he said and say, He was wrong. You need to look at the context in which it was said AND look at the time sin which it was said. At the same time, his sentiments were the sentiments of the majority of America. So, I think they are in the wrong to judge him based on those statements.

I agree - I just do not know if the vast majority of Amercians can or will make that distinction :shrug:

[dissention]

Was his former occupation a valet :laugh:

No, they were making a crack about Mexicans and blacks being valets and doing menial jobs.

[dissention]

I agree - I just do not know if the vast majority of Amercians can or will make that distinction :shrug:

Because they're irresponsible and lazy. :xoxo:

[gldstwmn]

I do - but I like to watch them all. The only one I really cannot watch at all is Hannity because I think he is unintelligent. I can take someone having a different opinion, but I do not suffer fools very well, esp. when they are just shouting idiotic things.

The words "carnival barker" come to mind.

[irishgrl]

Bob Dole has no point and the Viagra has obviously taken a toll on his mental stability. What he's saying is that because there is a good number of vets who are speaking out against Kerry, some of what they're saying must be true. What horse****. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. I can spek out with 100 other people at my side that George Bush used to shoot heroin, but that doesn't make any of it true.
(in Bush's case, who knows?)
I laffed out loud about the Dole/Viagra comment! BUT I think Dole is perceived as credible and many people may swallow whole what he says just because it is Dole saying it.

I myself have no problem with Kerry denouncing the Vietnam war and yet pointing to his service there. He DID serve there! that doesnt mean he agreed with WHY we were there...I thought most people had gotten to the point where we realized Vietnam was a mistake? My brother just barely escaped Vietnam having been injured on leave awaiting his shipping out papers...I can remember that the whole family was scared to death because most everyone knew you wouldnt be coming back whole, or alive. There was an INCREDIBLE loss of life in that war. and for what? To establish a foothold? To stem the awful red menace? Didnt happen. Asia is too vast, and 180 degrees away from our way of thinking, always has been. Vietnam was a classic case of the US blundering in without thinking and then not knowing how to get the heck OUT! (HOLY MOLY BATMAN, What do we do now?)

about news sources: I get Reuters emailed to me, but I will check out your recommendation Dissention. (EDIT: I went to pluck.com but I dont have windows OS, I use a Mac, so I cant download it, dang!)
Jason, about most of the major news sources using the same basic story, I agree that this is probably true, but the one thing that kept going thru my mind when you mentioned FOX news and CNN using the same feed, and therefore broadcasting the same story, I dont see it that way. FOX has a definite spin (Rupert Murdoch is an unabashed conservative, and his outlets reflect that) on how they present the news, whereas I think CNN is more neutral (out of all the major broadcasters that is)

[irishgrl]

The words "carnival barker" come to mind.

Oh you funny funny girl
:]

[gldstwmn]

Oh you funny funny girl
:]

It's the Celt in me. ;)

[irishgrl]

It's the Celt in me.
HEY NOW! ;)

[irishgrl]

Politics - AP
[AP]
Unit's Report Supports Kerry's Version

By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - The Navy task force overseeing John Kerry 's swift boat squadron in Vietnam reported that his group of boats came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, incident that three decades later is being challenged by the Democratic presidential nominee's critics.

The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry's description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it "an enemy initiated firefight" that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's.

Task Force 115 was commanded at the time by retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the founder of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running ads challenging Kerry's account of the episode.

A member of the group, Larry Thurlow, said Tuesday he stood by his assertion that there was no enemy fire that day. Thurlow, the commander of another boat who also won a Bronze Star, said task force commanders probably relied on the initial report of the incident. Thurlow says Kerry wrote that report.

The document, part of thousands of pages of records housed at the Naval Historical Center, is one of several that say Kerry and other servicemen were shot at from the banks of the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969. The Associated Press located the document Tuesday during a search of available records.

Earlier this month, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth aired a television ad claiming Kerry lied about the circumstances surrounding his medals. Several members of the group who were aboard nearby boats that March 13 said in the ad and in affidavits that there was no enemy gunfire during the incident.

The anti-Kerry group has not produced any official Navy documents supporting that claim, however. The man Kerry rescued, Jim Rassmann, and the crew of Kerry's boat all say there was gunfire from both banks of the river at the time.

Meanwhile, Benjamin Ginsberg, a lawyer for the Bush campaign, acknowledged Tuesday that he has given legal advice to the anti-Kerry group. Ginsberg said he never told the Bush campaign what he discussed with the group or vice versa, and doesn't advise the group on ad strategies.

The Kerry campaign has filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission accusing the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth of illegally coordinating the group's ads. The Bush campaign and the veterans group say there was no coordination.
Kerry is the subject of complaints by the Bush campaign and the Republican National Committee accusing his campaign of illegally coordinating anti-Bush ads with outside groups on the Democratic side, allegations he and the groups deny.

Kerry has denounced the assertions from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth as lies made as part of a Republican smear campaign. Most of the group's members and early financial backers are Republicans and one member who appeared in an ad, Ken Cordier, was a volunteer member of the Bush campaign. The campaign cut its ties with Cordier last week.

President Bush has said his campaign had nothing to do with the veterans group and said all such advertising by outside groups should cease. An anti-Bush group has run television ads saying Bush shirked his duty in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam war.

Kerry highlighted his Vietnam service during the Democratic convention last month, recounting the March 13 incident and having Rassmann join him on stage.

On that day in 1969, Kerry's PCF-94 was part of a five-boat group heading downriver. An underwater mine exploded underneath another boat, PCF-3, injuring its entire crew. Kerry's boat was then hit by another explosion that knocked Rassmann, an Army Green Beret, into the water. Kerry hurt his right arm in the explosion.

Kerry turned his boat around to rescue Rassmann, pulling the soldier into the boat with his injured right arm, while the other boats rushed to help PCF-3. All the official Navy reports on the incident say the boats were under heavy fire from the riverbanks at the time. Those records include the official after-action report, citations for Bronze Stars awarded for heroism that day and now the Task Force 115 report.

The weekly report cites the incident twice, referring to its code name of Sea Lords 358. The first reference says the boats "encountered an enemy initiated firefight with water mines and automatic weapons fire." The second reference also mentions "an enemy initiated firefight ... with water mines and automatic weapons."

Thurlow, the commander of another swift boat who won a Bronze Star for helping the crew of PCF-3, insists there was no enemy gunfire during the incident. The citation and recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also mention enemy fire, however.

Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day.

Thurlow stood by his claim that there was no gunfire that day and said his Bronze Star documents were wrong.

Kerry's campaign has released copies of the after-action report and Kerry's Bronze Star nomination and citation for the incident, but not the weekly report.

[irishgrl]

good grief, what an ASS!
Thurlow, the commander of another swift boat who won a Bronze Star for helping the crew of PCF-3, insists there was no enemy gunfire during the incident. The citation and recommendation for Thurlow's Bronze Star, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, also mention enemy fire, however. Thurlow's medal recommendation, for example, says he helped the PCF-3 crew "under constant enemy small arms fire." That recommendation is signed by George Elliott, another member of the anti-Kerry group. It lists as the only witness for the incident Robert Eugene Lambert, an enlisted man who was not on Kerry's boat who also won the Bronze Star that day.

Thurlow stood by his claim that there was no gunfire that day and said his Bronze Star documents were wrong.

Why the heck didnt he turn HIS medal in? or refuse it in the first place?
GAH!

and this:
The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry's description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it "an enemy initiated firefight" that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's.

Task Force 115 was commanded at the time by retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the founder of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running ads challenging Kerry's account of the episode.

So, the commander of the Task Force is now discounting HIS OWN report? WHAT is this man getting PAID? Judas got 13 pieces of silver...I bet Roy Hoffman is getting much MUCH more (what a disgusting human being)

[dissention]

good grief, what an ASS!


Why the heck didnt he turn HIS medal in? or refuse it in the first place?
GAH!

Thurlow also said last week that if he received the bronze star for being under enemy fire, he wants to return it. :lol: :rolleyes:

[irishgrl]

So Mr. holier-than-thou didn't know what he got his medal for? Bruh-ther! by all means, SOLDIER, turn yer medal in! Better yet, give it to KERRY!
this whole thing is such an obvious ploy, I am surprised people are even buying into it! and the whole "get Nader on the ballot to split the Democratic vote" scheme is pathetic...
If anyone truly wanted their vote to count, they would realize that any of those "third party" candidates are just vote wasters....even tho they may be very deserving...(its a shame really, but this Nation is STILL in reality, a TWO PARTY system. The other parties are just so much window dressing...)