"That Made Me Stronger"

[GateandGarden]

I know that this is a very unpopular song, so I wanted to ask people why they dislike it so much. I think it's great, though certainly not the best on TISL. But what's wrong with it? Go on, bash it. I can take it. :D

Hillary

[markolas]

The lyrics are self-absorbed, but that's really the only bad thing about it, as far as I can tell. The music sounds great, and so do Stevie's vocals. But, it still winds up being one of two songs that I skip on TISL, because of the lyrics. She should've taken a different approach. They're just too self-absorbed.

[Edit]

I don't think all of the lyrics are self-absorbed. The part that annoys me is the chorus:

Well the conversation rings in my head
Well you know me better than I know myself
Will you write this for me
He says no, you write your songs yourself
That made me stronger
It made me hold on to me

The rest of the song is fine.

[David]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]I know that this is a very unpopular song, so I wanted to ask people why they dislike it so much. I think it's great, though certainly not the best on TISL. But what's wrong with it? Go on, bash it. I can take it.I guess it's OK. . . I mean. . . eh. . . .

What I mean is, it's pretty good. . . I mean, it's just sort of ordinary, but it's good . . . just really ordinary, I find . . . but . . . eh . . . .

[GateandGarden]

The lyrics are self-absorbed, but that's really the only bad thing about it, as far as I can tell. The music sounds great, and so do Stevie's vocals. But, it still winds up being one of two songs that I skip on TISL, because of the lyrics. She should've taken a different approach. They're just too self-absorbed.

[Edit]

I don't think all of the lyrics are self-absorbed. The part that annoys me is the chorus:

Well the conversation rings in my head
Well you know me better than I know myself
Will you write this for me
He says no, you write your songs yourself
That made me stronger
It made me hold on to me

The rest of the song is fine.
I guess it's just that I can't see how those lyrics are self-absorbed. I look at it like she asked him "Will you write this for me?" and he said, "No, I won't help you out--you're on your own." And so she was forced to go at it alone, and later realized that it made her a stronger individual. I think she may be using songwriting as a metaphor, saying that she asked him to stand beside her and help her through everything she had to do in life, in a much more general sense, and he implored her to do it herself, possibly out of bitterness or some feelings of animosity. (I keep relating it to the relationship with Lindsey in my head and thinking that he felt bitter because she broke up with him, and I imagine he's the guy in the song--just my opinion, as is this whole post, of course). And since he forced her to do things on her own, she realized that she had more strength as an individual than she had when she was leaning on him. I think of it as a song about coming to terms with not being attached to and dependent on someone else and being comfortable and just as content with that.

Does anyone else see it that way or am I just totally out of left field? :shrug:

Hillary

[sparky]

Why don't I care for this song ? The music is kind of interesting. The first time I heard the song, the opening caught me. I thought it sounded exotic and cool. Then....it kind of drifts into blahville.

For one, the song is infected by the "well" virus. I can't stand Stevie's use of, and dependence on this throwaway word. I think it's sloppy writing. About a minute into the song, the whole thing just plods. There isn't much momentum. The song doesn't go anywhere to me. The bridge actually seems to slow the song's movement, instead of being a resolution or a transition. Also, the vocal sounds a little muffled.
The cherry on the cake is that it's a song about writing her songs herself, and she had someone else write the music ! That irony slays me to this day. Maybe it was a "neener neener" at T.P. "Fine, I'll get someone else to help me write !" However, that isn't what the song is about. Thus, I don't understand the clash in message there at all.
That being said, I think the song is just average. I don't hate it. I would have preferred she left it off altogether and used a better song. "Everybody Finds Out" would have been an excellent addition to this record, as I don't think it fits on SYW.

[GateandGarden]

Why don't I care for this song ? The music is kind of interesting. The first time I heard the song, the opening caught me. I thought it sounded exotic and cool. Then....it kind of drifts into blahville.

For one, the song is infected by the "well" virus. I can't stand Stevie's use of, and dependence on this throwaway word. I think it's sloppy writing. About a minute into the song, the whole thing just plods. There isn't much momentum. The song doesn't go anywhere to me. The bridge actually seems to slow the song's movement, instead of being a resolution or a transition. Also, the vocal sounds a little muffled.
The cherry on the cake is that it's a song about writing her songs herself, and she had someone else write the music ! That irony slays me to this day. Maybe it was a "neener neener" at T.P. "Fine, I'll get someone else to help me write !" However, that isn't what the song is about. Thus, I don't understand the clash in message there at all.
That being said, I think the song is just average. I don't hate it. I would have preferred she left it off altogether and used a better song. "Everybody Finds Out" would have been an excellent addition to this record, as I don't think it fits on SYW.
Good points there. I can't understand having someone else write the music. I hadn't even considered her excessive use of "well." For some reason, that doesn't bother me. :shrug: But you're so right about the song not really building up to anything. I feel that way, too, I just hadn't really figured out that that was my problem. I was singing it the other day, and when I got to the bridge, I started thinking, Something should have been done differently, or left out, or written in, or something. I think you've more eloquently described what I was thinking. Still, it's one of those songs that I really like, in spite of the flaws. The song I decided to use as my username on this board is also not her best song by any stretch of the imagination, but it too really touched me. (But the production is much better IMO).

Hillary

[Josh2003]

I think what bothers me so much about this song is that it came up in practically every interview she did during the TISL release. At least, the incident behind the song did. Then we all knew what the song was about. Maybe if it was still a little vague as to what she was talking about in the song, more people would appreciate it.

[GateandGarden]

I think what bothers me so much about this song is that it came up in practically every interview she did during the TISL release. At least, the incident behind the song did. Then we all knew what the song was about. Maybe if it was still a little vague as to what she was talking about in the song, more people would appreciate it.I wasn't a fan yet at the time of the release of TISL. Can someone please fill me in? This is the first I've heard of the "incident behind the song." This keeps getting more interesting.

Hillary

[GateandGarden]

Well, I just visited www.buckinghamnicks.net and read Nancy's lyric speculation on the song, in which she mentioned an incident with Tom Petty. Is that what you were referring to?

Hillary

[Johnny Stew]

I don't hate it. But it doesn't blow me away either.

I do really like the verses. Especially the opening line: "Dreams reoccur in my solitude... breaking my heart, injuring my mood."

But I guess the chorus is a little too-standard.

Oddly enough, I don't have as big of a problem with the fact that Stevie didn't write the music for it, even though she talks about being told to write her songs herself.
I tend to feel that, to Stevie, the WORDS are her songs, far more than any other part. And it's the WORDS she had to write herself, rather than letting someone else put them in her mouth. :shrug:

Overall, it's a decent song, with parts worth recommending, but it never quite rises above being average.

[sparky]

Oddly enough, I don't have as big of a problem with the fact that Stevie didn't write the music for it, even though she talks about being told to write her songs herself.
I tend to feel that, to Stevie, the WORDS are her songs, far more than any other part. And it's the WORDS she had to write herself, rather than letting someone else put them in her mouth. :shrug:

Well, I mean well, well, well...I am not completely clear on the process of her collaborations. In the past, I have read of near complete music tracks (from Rick Nowels and Mike Campbell specifically) being sent to her. Then she has either written the words or matched up words to the track that she had in her "vaults". Who really wrote the melody has never been stated. However, the thing is, some songs are credited as 'Words and Music by A & B', rather than 'Words by A, Music by B'. This leads me to believe this track came complete with an instrumental melody line. But I wasn't in the room.
Maybe a call to Phoenix this evening is necessary for clarification.

I suppose writing a song means different things to different people. I have written a lot of songs - but I don't consider a song a 'song' until the music is done and then I play the guitar and sing the words from beginning to end. I have many pages of lyrics laying around with no music or coherent melody thought out. I have little riffs and chord progressions taped or written down as well. I consider these two elements components. I don't consider them songs yet.

If a friend sent me a finished track with no words, and I came up with a melody line and words I would say we collaborated on a song. But, I would never really consider it "my song". I suppose it's really a vision thing for me.

For example, Bernie Taupin is Elton John's Lyricist - they write the two parts of the songs in different rooms. Who's really the songwriter ? I am not sure. In that relationship, the sum of the parts is way greater than the whole. But I know Elton writes almost all, if not all, of those melodies. I guess they are a team - but Bernie is always "the lyricist".

Perhaps I am splitting hairs here. I can only speak of my process, really. But, the way Stevie talks about her "WRITING", I always picture that demo process - the results of which we have frequently heard. For songs that she completely wrote herself. I believe she was lamenting to T.P. the fact that she had lost her ability to write at all for some time. Then she evidently went home and wrote two songs after the fateful dinner/diss at the Ritz Carlton. Songs that are solely credited to her. That makes sense. That's really cool. The song ABOUT the experience being a collaboration ? It doesn't annoy me, but it is extremely ironic. Okay, maybe does it annoy me :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

I believe she was lamenting to T.P. the fact that she had lost her ability to write at all for some time. Then she evidently went home and wrote two songs after the fateful dinner/diss at the Ritz Carlton. Songs that are solely credited to her. That makes sense. That's really cool. The song ABOUT the experience being a collaboration ? It doesn't annoy me, but it is extremely ironic. Okay, maybe does it annoy me :laugh:

:laugh:

Yeah, the irony in it definitely isn't lost on me. But I guess it just doesn't really annoy me.
Especially since, as you pointed out, the songs she wrote directly as a result of that conversation, were written entirely by her. Thankfully.
If they hadn't been, THEN I would have been annoyed. :laugh:

Maybe Stevie felt that the music Scott Crago and Tim Drury wrote, suited "That Made Me Stronger" better than the music she might write on her own. If it was for the betterment of the song, then it makes sense. :)

Anyway, it's an oddity no matter how you toss it, that a song about writing songs yourself, was co-written with others! :laugh:

[Gypsy3]

Well it's one of my favorite songs on "TISL" which is my favorite Stevie album. The chorus lyrics are not the best, but the rest of the song is fantastic.

[markolas]

I guess it's just that I can't see how those lyrics are self-absorbed. I look at it like she asked him "Will you write this for me?" and he said, "No, I won't help you out--you're on your own." And so she was forced to go at it alone, and later realized that it made her a stronger individual. I think she may be using songwriting as a metaphor, saying that she asked him to stand beside her and help her through everything she had to do in life, in a much more general sense, and he implored her to do it herself, possibly out of bitterness or some feelings of animosity. (I keep relating it to the relationship with Lindsey in my head and thinking that he felt bitter because she broke up with him, and I imagine he's the guy in the song--just my opinion, as is this whole post, of course). And since he forced her to do things on her own, she realized that she had more strength as an individual than she had when she was leaning on him. I think of it as a song about coming to terms with not being attached to and dependent on someone else and being comfortable and just as content with that.

Does anyone else see it that way or am I just totally out of left field? :shrug:

Hillary

No, I see what you're saying. I just think she shouldn't have been so specific...having writer's block isn't exactly a universal experience that everyone can relate to. I really do like the rest of the song, though.

[Serrart]

At start I liked the music but the lyrics seemed to me the text of a letter that could remain private. Now I see them more like a homage to a friend who helped her in a critical moment, and I can relate to that. :)

Romy

[gldstwmn]

The best lyric in the song is "Once more I tell the shadows of my soul to stay back...", which is a flash of her brilliant writing capability and for some reason reminds me of something from The Wild Heart era.
I wish they would have made more of a big deal over Bombay Sapphires than this song. It's a much better song.

[amber]

I know that this is a very unpopular song, so I wanted to ask people why they dislike it so much. I think it's great, though certainly not the best on TISL. But what's wrong with it? Go on, bash it. I can take it. :D

Hillary
I usually don't care for Stevie much in a midtempo major key. So, I don't mind the words, it's just the sound of the vocal melody that makes me not like it. Although i do like the one part "noyouwriteyoursongsyourself" for some reason. Just that one part. OH, wait, i also like it ok when the vocal gets bigger and higher at "Well the conversation rings in my heeeeeeaaaaaddd...etc"
AMber

[ontheEdgeof17]

The only thing I dislike about this song is that it sticks out like a sore thumb. The only song on the album that doesn't talk about a broken relationship like all the other songs. I think it would have fit better on some soundtrack because it is just out of the ordinary.

[diamondsnake]

The only thing I dislike about this song is that it sticks out like a sore thumb. The only song on the album that doesn't talk about a broken relationship like all the other songs. I think it would have fit better on some soundtrack because it is just out of the ordinary.
Really? I think the only song that sticks out like a sore thumb is It's Only Love. It is just the guitar and that is it... while the rest of the album has a band/techno feel to it if you ask me.

[The Tower]

Then she evidently went home and wrote two songs after the fateful dinner/diss at the Ritz Carlton. Songs that are solely credited to her. That makes sense. That's really cool. The song ABOUT the experience being a collaboration ? It doesn't annoy me, but it is extremely ironic. Okay, maybe does it annoy me :laugh:

It REALLY annoys me! I always skip songs six, seven, eight and nine. Four stinkers in a row.

What was the second song she wrote after her Ritz/TP thing? I know one of them was "Love Is", but what was number two (no pun intended)?? :lol:

[dissention]

What was the second song she wrote after her Ritz/TP thing? I know one of them was "Love Is", but what was number two (no pun intended)?? :lol:

Trouble In Shangri-La. ;)

I submit that TISL is one of her most lyrically compelling songs, it's brilliant.

[strandinthewind]

Trouble In Shangri-La. ;)

I submit that TISL is one of her most lyrically compelling songs, it's brilliant.

Me tooo!!!!!!!!!

Aren't we having a love fest today!!!!

BTW - prior to the Ritz thing, she had already written Love Is. I think she wrote only TISL after the Ritz thing. I could be wriong though.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Really? I think the only song that sticks out like a sore thumb is It's Only Love. It is just the guitar and that is it... while the rest of the album has a band/techno feel to it if you ask me.


Yeah. I see that. At least it stays with the theme of the album, unlike TMMS.

-Curt

[jadegypsy]

Not sure I can give a very good explaination...I don't care for the lyrics, they sound overly thought out, kinda like she was trying a bit too hard to make a point insead of writing in the moment. The actual conversation "no you said you write your song yourself" just doesn't flow for me. Overall it's just a sub par song, i get what she was doing with it, but for some reason it seems when Stevie purposly sets out to write a song specifically for someone I end up not caring for it, I dislike L&L for a similar reason it sounds overly "worked on." Her songs have such a anonymous and dreamy quality that when she writes something "crystal" clear it just comes off out of character.

[tommer]

this song is just total crap.
other than the actual vocals (that doesn't shine that brightly either) it's a shameful effort altogether, from writing to mixing.
it lacks any qualities that stevie and co. can provide. i don't think there is even a point in dissecting it, all the components used to create it were rotten, so unsurprisingly it tends to stink.
apparently, what makes stevies stronger makes tommers weaker. in fact, i'd rather listen to Too Far From Texas 10 times in a row, than listening to TMMS even once. but you know what the worst part is? that songs such as this one makes me fear to death that the nicks fountain may be draining.

[no_spoken_word]

BTW - prior to the Ritz thing, she had already written Love Is. I think she wrote only TISL after the Ritz thing. I could be wriong though.

Yeah, hasn't Stevie said she wrote Love Is as soon as she got home from the Street Angel tour, or was that as soon as she got out of rehab (before the tour)? I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure TISL was the song she wrote after her conversation with Tom, and Love Is was already written.

[Serrart]

Yeah, hasn't Stevie said she wrote Love Is as soon as she got home from the Street Angel tour, or was that as soon as she got out of rehab (before the tour)? I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure TISL was the song she wrote after her conversation with Tom, and Love Is was already written.

Yes, in the interview with Rosie (Thanks Sarah for the link to the transcript :thumbsup: ), Stevie said Love is was written three months before the Ritz/TP thing and TISL a couple of months later.

Romy

[amber]

Could someone be so kind as to tell me what the Ritz/TP thing is? It sound like something awful - but of course i don't know. :) Thanks in advance.
AMber

[strandinthewind]

Could someone be so kind as to tell me what the Ritz/TP thing is? It sound like something awful - but of course i don't know. :) Thanks in advance.
AMber

Here is an excerpt from this article http://www.nicksfix.com/article_usatoday_may4_2001.htm.

Note, many many more exist :google

Not initially, judging from Trouble's troubled history. Nicks embarked on the album after her 1994 tour but hit a series of roadblocks, including the Fleetwood Mac reunion ("It mows everything else down"), her Enchanted box set and tour, a label relocation and a debilitating addiction to Klonopin, typically prescribed for depression, anxiety and panic disorder.

"It's a horrible, dangerous drug," says Nicks, an addict for eight years. "Doctors are dying to put you on drugs: 'Feeling a little nervous? Here, let's mask everything so you don't have a personality anymore.'

"The overwhelming feeling of wellness and calm equals blah, nothing. My creativity went away. The fabulous Stevie everyone knew just disappeared. I became what I call the 'whatever' person. I didn't care about anything anymore. I got very heavy. One day I looked in the mirror and said, 'I don't know you.' And I went straight to the hospital for 47 days."

Humiliated by her behavior under the influence, Nicks lost her creative confidence until a pivotal encounter with longtime pal and collaborator Tom Petty restored her pride. They met for dinner in her native Phoenix to discuss his possible participation on the record.

"I was horrified about things I did to people during eight years of Klonopin and Prozac," she says. "I almost couldn't get over it. Tom recognized that. He said, 'I know you're upset, but you didn't go looking for those drugs on the street. Nobody's mad at you anymore. Everyone is over it except you.' It snapped my brain."

He turned down her invitation and told her, "You didn't have babies because you wanted to write songs, so go home and create more babies."

Nicks recalls, "I went straight to my living room and started to write. That dinner at the Ritz-Carlton was worth a jillion dollars."

[amber]

Your very sweet, thank you. I knew about the whole thing, I just didn't know about the Ritz Carlton - you know, I didn't know the incident was OFFICIALLY called Ritz/TP :p :laugh:
AMber

[GateandGarden]

this song is just total crap.
other than the actual vocals (that doesn't shine that brightly either) it's a shameful effort altogether, from writing to mixing.
it lacks any qualities that stevie and co. can provide. i don't think there is even a point in dissecting it, all the components used to create it were rotten, so unsurprisingly it tends to stink.
apparently, what makes stevies stronger makes tommers weaker. in fact, i'd rather listen to Too Far From Texas 10 times in a row, than listening to TMMS even once. but you know what the worst part is? that songs such as this one makes me fear to death that the nicks fountain may be draining.
How beautifully blunt! :lol: I humbly disagree for the most part, and also have to add that I can't listen to "Too Far From Texas" all the way through once. But that's just me.

Hillary

[tommer]

How beautifully blunt! :lol: COLOR]
[COLOR=Purple]Hillary
and there's more where that came from.
i forgot to mention that this song is the reason i fear every time the possibility of a self-produced stevie album pops up.
to me, the fact that such a song sees the light of day, especially in an album which is already so full, so long, and so good, is a true sign of "egomaniacism". it shows no real and objective sense of what's right and what's wrong. producers like lindsey, or jimmy iovine won't dare letting a song like this one slip in an album produced by them.

[Kelly]

Whether I like the song or not is not so much the point for me. The message Stevie was trying to convey in her words IS what is important. Personally, I amnot a big fan of TMMS, particularly her choice of words. However, when I take into account the theme of TISL, the song takes on more importance and significance. She had achieved shangri la and lost it. This song marks the turning point for Stevie and the album when she starts to work her way back towards her "shangri la". It all falls together when you consider the theme of the album. I love her message but the song lyrics do seem forced. I enjoy Stevie's writing much more when she freely writes down her thoughts and feelings about a particular event and then goes back in her journals and works that into a song. For TMMS, it appears that Stevie wanted to write a song about this encounter with Tom, and the result is a song with much less natural emotion and lyrics that seem really forced. That vague, ethereal quality that most of her writing has is absent here because she "tried" to write a song about a particular event. The same thing happens with SG. She wanted to write a song about Sheryl and she sat down to do so. As a result the words seem unnatural and not as free flowing as I like. "girly girl, high tech world" bleck.
Overall, TMMS is my least favorite song on the album but I usually listen to it because of Stevie's overall message.

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know when Love Changes was written?

[cliffdweller]

This song would be better with different lyrics. Everything else about the song is good imo.

[sparky]

and there's more where that came from.
i forgot to mention that this song is the reason i fear every time the possibility of a self-produced stevie album pops up.
to me, the fact that such a song sees the light of day, especially in an album which is already so full, so long, and so good, is a true sign of "egomaniacism". it shows no real and objective sense of what's right and what's wrong. producers like lindsey, or jimmy iovine won't dare letting a song like this one slip in an album produced by them.

Interesting. There is a lack of objectivity that must have played into the inclusion of this clunker. Sure, the idea is fine, it's the execution that is dismal. She needed someone to tell her it wasn't done - send her back to rework it a half dozen times. At least.

[dissention]

I hate the "me" songs, so...this one is no exception.

I love the lines "Dreams reoccur in my solitude, breaking my heart, injuring my mood" and "Once more I tell the shadows of my soul to stay back," though. Great lines.

The song itself feels very out of place and self-indulgent.

[dissention]

She needed someone to tell her it wasn't done - send her back to rework it a half dozen times. At least.

Yeah, so they could be verbally slapped and told "It's the poet that I am." ;) :wavey:

[dissention]

and there's more where that came from.
i forgot to mention that this song is the reason i fear every time the possibility of a self-produced stevie album pops up.
to me, the fact that such a song sees the light of day, especially in an album which is already so full, so long, and so good, is a true sign of "egomaniacism". it shows no real and objective sense of what's right and what's wrong. producers like lindsey, or jimmy iovine won't dare letting a song like this one slip in an album produced by them.

Amen.

Stevie does not have the best judgment when it comes to selecting songs to make albums. TMMS may have made her stronger, but it sure as hell made my tolerance weaker. Every time the chorus comes on, I have to fight the urge to purge.

And just think, we could've had Space Needle instead of That Made Me Sicker.

[sparky]

I love the lines "Dreams reoccur in my solitude, breaking my heart, injuring my mood" and "Once more I tell the shadows of my soul to stay back," though. Great lines.

The song itself feels very out of place and self-indulgent.

Of course it feels that way. I beg to differ on those lines though. If I hear her wail about dreams, hearts, shadows or souls many more times, I may need to get a prescription. Good God, the same imagery and words OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

[skcin]

I love the lines "Dreams reoccur in my solitude, breaking my heart, injuring my mood" and "Once more I tell the shadows of my soul to stay back," though. Great lines.




I was just going to post that same thought - love them! I don't hate the song, but I don't love it either.

I Miss You is another story - I rarely listen to the CD without skipping that one. It just drags for me.

Paula

[dissention]

Of course it feels that way. I beg to differ on those lines though. If I hear her wail about dreams, hearts, shadows or souls many more times, I may need to get a prescription. Good God, the same imagery and words OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

Oh, it most certainly is rote, but I still think they're good lines. Stevie needs some new schtick, or like you said, at the very least some new imagery. There are only so many times you can write the same lines over and over.

[The Tower]

And just think, we could've had Space Needle instead of That Made Me Sicker.

What on Earth was she thinking?!?!? :mad: "Space Needle" would have been a top three song on TISL.

"I remember the long, cold winter...
I remember being hot all the time
I remember the black Space Needle
Casting its black shadow... down through time...."

Gives me chills every time. :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Personally, I think Stevie should put whatever she wants on her albums.
No concessions, no editing, no committee approval... those things are for Fleetwood Mac albums.

I want pure, unadulterated Stevie on her solo albums.
If I don't like some of her choices, so be it. :D

[GateandGarden]

I Miss You is another story - I rarely listen to the CD without skipping that one. It just drags for me.

Paula
I can hardly contain my hatred for "I Miss You." I just hate those lyrics. Talk about some crappy lyrics. Many hate the lyrics in Christine's "Only Over You," but I'd take that over "I Miss You" any day. I just can't stand it. It's one of those things. I'm unapologetic. It's comparable to how a lot of you feel about "TMMS."

Hillary

[markolas]

I can hardly contain my hatred for "I Miss You." I just hate those lyrics. Talk about some crappy lyrics. Many hate the lyrics in Christine's "Only Over You," but I'd take that over "I Miss You" any day. I just can't stand it. It's one of those things. I'm unapologetic. It's comparable to how a lot of you feel about "TMMS."

Hillary

See, "I Miss You" is one of my favorite songs from TISL. There doesn't seem to be a lot of love around here for the second half of the album.

[Claripup]

Personally, I think Stevie should put whatever she wants on her albums.
No concessions, no editing, no committee approval... those things are for Fleetwood Mac albums.

I want pure, unadulterated Stevie on her solo albums.
If I don't like some of her choices, so be it. :D

^^ What he said! :thumbsup: :blob1: :nod:

[EveryHour]

The lyrics are self-absorbed, but that's really the only bad thing about it, as far as I can tell. She should've taken a different approach. They're just too self-absorbed.



I know you've already been ranked on for this statement, but I think it's rediculous to say this about this song because it would basically require you to have the same point of view regarding 80% of Stevie's songs. Most of her songs are about herself. Do you think Landslide has "self-absorbed" lyrics?! It is filled with "I" 's and "my" 's, afterall. :shrug: If you don't care much for the song (TMMS), fine. I just don't understand that reason, if you don't feel that way about Stevie's other songs.

:)

[markolas]

I know you've already been ranked on for this statement, but I think it's rediculous to say this about this song because it would basically require you to have the same point of view regarding 80% of Stevie's songs. Most of her songs are about herself. Do you think Landslide has "self-absorbed" lyrics?! It is filled with "I" 's and "my" 's, afterall. :shrug: If you don't care much for the song (TMMS), fine. I just don't understand that reason, if you don't feel that way about Stevie's other songs.

:)

I think what I dislike is the fact that she's talking so clearly about writing songs and having writer's block. I usually try to stay away from descriptions like "self-absorbed" or "self-indulgent" (god, I really hate that one). Everyone in the "singer/songwriter" tradition could be described as "self-absorbed," because they're all writing/singing about themselves (Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Carole King, Joni Mitchell). I don't think that's a bad thing at all. This is one of my favorite genres of music.

It's not even that I don't care for the song. I think it's catchy. I just don't like that chorus.

[Johnny Stew]

I think what I dislike is the fact that she's talking so clearly about writing songs and having writer's block.

They often say that one of the first rules of writing a song, is to not write about writing a song. Sounds like a smart rule to follow, with very few exceptions. :laugh:


I usually try to stay away from descriptions like "self-absorbed" or "self-indulgent" (god, I really hate that one). Everyone in the "singer/songwriter" tradition could be described as "self-absorbed," because they're all writing/singing about themselves (Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Carole King, Joni Mitchell). I don't think that's a bad thing at all. This is one of my favorite genres of music.

Exactly! :D As I've said countless times, I prefer when a songwriter writes about their life and their experiences... even if I've never been to rehab or I've never been famous, etc.... it just feels more real and honest to me. But I agree that the chorus to "TMMS" is clunky, and would have benefitted the song more if it had been less journalistic. The rest of the lyrics have some beautiful imagery, and it would have been more enjoyable for me if the chorus had been in the same vein. :)

It's not even that I don't care for the song. I think it's catchy. I just don't like that chorus.

Ditto. :nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Stevie needs some new schtick.... There are only so many times you can write the same lines over and over.

You and I should know alllllllll about that. :laugh: ;)

[sodascouts]

And just think, we could've had Space Needle instead of That Made Me Sicker.

lol!!!! Good one.

Hillary's link to my speculation earlier already expresses my opinions on this clunker.

[EveryHour]

I think what I dislike is the fact that she's talking so clearly about writing songs and having writer's block. I usually try to stay away from descriptions like "self-absorbed" or "self-indulgent" (god, I really hate that one). Everyone in the "singer/songwriter" tradition could be described as "self-absorbed," because they're all writing/singing about themselves (Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Carole King, Joni Mitchell). I don't think that's a bad thing at all. This is one of my favorite genres of music.

It's not even that I don't care for the song. I think it's catchy. I just don't like that chorus.

I see how it's tacky, if you will, to write about having writer's block. I'm sure Stevie couldn't help but put that very problem into song, though, since writing is her life and that night with Tom was a huge turning point for her. I appreciate your explanation...hopefully you see why I was confused by your less-explanatory post since most of Stevie's (and many others', as you pointed out) songs are "self-absorbed/indulgent" (<<< I agree. Blech).

:wavey:

[David]

I see how it's tacky, if you will, to write about having writer's block. I'm sure Stevie couldn't help but put that very problem into song, though, since writing is her life and that night with Tom was a huge turning point for her.I see what you guys are saying. But I don't think it's ipso facto bad rot to write about having writer's block -- or any other aspect of the self. In my view, it isn't whether you write about yourself or not; it's whether you write about yourself (or anything else) with insight or poignancy or humor. No subject should necessarily be avoided by any artist: every aspect of the human condition is worth examination or aesthetic stylization. But if the attempt is a failure, you have to blame -- not the subject matter but the artist for being unable to delve deeply enough or say anything new or unusual.

A lot of fans criticize "Docklands" for its subject matter. In fact, a lot of fans oversimplify the subject matter in that song to an absurd degree. (The song is about alienation & the loss of hope, but some fans foolishly just think the song is about "laundromats" & such.) There's a very fine filmmaker named Chantal Ackerman. One of her most revered movies, "Jeanne Dielman," is almost four hours long, & is "about" little more than tending to housework in an apartment (there's more to it than that, but I'm trying to make a point). Yet, this film has kept audiences enthralled, moved, in tears, in laughter, & utterly fascinated for more than twenty-five years, because Ackerman & her colleagues treated their subject matter with sensitivity & searing thoughtfulness, & had the talent to carry it all off.

Wordsworth was one of the greatest poets in the English language, & several works of his are practically fixated on the narrative voice, the speaker, on Wordsworth himself -- even on writer's block! The subjects of his poems are only the artist's stepping board; Wordsworth's achievement is in the handling of those subjects. Art is a lot more than good intentions. It's the execution of the artist's intentions with technique & innovation & vision & talent -- the more talent, the better. The same is true for Stevie! She succeeds or fails based on her handling of her subjects, not on the subjects themselves.

[Johnny Stew]

I see what you guys are saying. But I don't think it's ipso facto bad rot to write about having writer's block -- or any other aspect of the self. In my view, it isn't whether you write about yourself or not; it's whether you write about yourself (or anything else) with insight or poignancy or humor.

A lot of fans criticize "Docklands" for its subject matter. In fact, a lot of fans oversimplify the subject matter in that song to an absurd degree. (The song is about alienation & the loss of hope, but some fans foolishly just think the song is about "laundromats" & such.)

Art is a lot more than good intentions. It's the execution of the artist's intentions with technique & innovation & vision & talent -- the more talent, the better. The same is true for Stevie! She succeeds or fails based on her handling of her subjects, not on the subjects themselves.

Very insightful, David... as usual (In fact, I think I'm going to ask you to start writing my posts for me. Unless you think I should write my posts myself? ;) ).

As far as "Docklands"... I've often complained about it for those very simplistic reasons of Stevie singing about laundromats, and her sister telling her to brush her hair, etc., and those things not ringing true to me when looked at in the context of Stevie's oeuvré.
But you're right... the song is deeper than that. And, if you think about it, the themes it deals with under the surface level, do fit perfectly within the types of themes Stevie has explored to varying degrees in her own writing.

I imagine how we view the song has less to do with the song itself, or even Stevie's performance, but rather how we view Stevie.
For all the talk of wanting Stevie to grow and change, maybe we're worst of all when it comes to keeping her boxed-in by our own expectations.

Or maybe we only want her to change, when it involves changes we approve of. :shrug:

Either way, I think I'm going to start listening to "Docklands" a little differently from now on. :)

[Serrart]

I see what you guys are saying. But I don't think it's ipso facto bad rot to write about having writer's block -- or any other aspect of the self. In my view, it isn't whether you write about yourself or not; it's whether you write about yourself (or anything else) with insight or poignancy or humor. No subject should necessarily be avoided by any artist: every aspect of the human condition is worth examination or aesthetic stylization. But if the attempt is a failure, you have to blame -- not the subject matter but the artist for being unable to delve deeply enough or say anything new or unusual.

A lot of fans criticize "Docklands" for its subject matter. In fact, a lot of fans oversimplify the subject matter in that song to an absurd degree. (The song is about alienation & the loss of hope, but some fans foolishly just think the song is about "laundromats" & such.) There's a very fine filmmaker named Chantal Ackerman. One of her most revered movies, "Jeanne Dielman," is almost four hours long, & is "about" little more than tending to housework in an apartment (there's more to it than that, but I'm trying to make a point). Yet, this film has kept audiences enthralled, moved, in tears, in laughter, & utterly fascinated for more than twenty-five years, because Ackerman & her colleagues treated their subject matter with sensitivity & searing thoughtfulness, & had the talent to carry it all off.

Wordsworth was one of the greatest poets in the English language, & several works of his are practically fixated on the narrative voice, the speaker, on Wordsworth himself -- even on writer's block! The subjects of his poems are only the artist's stepping board; Wordsworth's achievement is in the handling of those subjects. Art is a lot more than good intentions. It's the execution of the artist's intentions with technique & innovation & vision & talent -- the more talent, the better. The same is true for Stevie! She succeeds or fails based on her handling of her subjects, not on the subjects themselves.

I agree, but you can have talent and fail, just because something in the sum of the parts (in this case, lyrics, topic, music, vocals, production, etc) doesn't work properly and the universality of art isn't reached. Anyway, there are "sums of the parts" much more interesting than others, because some of their elements are particularly insightful, innovative or for their style. For me TMMS is among those valuable "sums of the parts" and Docklands isn't. :)

Romy

P.S Chantal Akerman is brilliant! :nod: