Break Down of Kiln House

[Hawkeye]

I don't own this one so I'll just let you all start.

[macfan 57]

Great-Station Man
Good-Blood On The Floor, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel Eyed Judy, Earl Gray, One Together, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Mission Bell
OK-This Is The Rock, Buddy's Song

[ThePenguin]

Great: Hi Ho Silver, Earl Gray, Mission Bell
Good: This is the Rock, Station Man, Jewel Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, Tell Me All the Things You Do
OK: One Together, Blood on the Floor

-Lis

[Hippocampus]

Simply The Best: Jewel Eyed Judy

Great/Good: Station Man, Earl Gray, One Together, Mission Bell

Ok I guess: This Is The Rock, Hi Ho Silver, Buddy's Song, Tell Me All The Things You Do

Awful: Blood On The Floor

[snoot]

Simply The Best: Jeremy Spencer shines! :thumbsup:

Great: One Together, Mission Bell, Station Man, This Is The Rock, Jewel Eyed Judy

Good: Buddy's Song, Earl Gray, Tell Me All The Things You Do, Hi Ho Silver

Ok: Blood On The Floor (a parody-of-sorts in song, not bad either, with typical Spencer staging)

The whole album is solid :: no really weak tracks IMO

Of Note: Kirwan & Spencer's guitar magic, with some sweet backing vocals from Christie McVie :angel:

[aleuzzi]

Great: Station Man, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel-Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, and Tell Men All the Things You Do

Good: This is the Rock, Earl Grey, One Together, Mission Bell

Passable: Blood on the Floor

Kiln House is one of those rare, earhty classics without any pretention or glitz. It's as authentic as anything on the Stones' Exile on Main Street--perhas more so, since FM weren't trying to be rootsy. They were just being themselves. All of the songs are catchy and played with an earnest charm so far removed from the Tango years you'd think it was not only a different band but a different century.

Incidentally, I love the BBC-live versions of Hi-Ho Silver (Honey Hush) and Buddy's Song. I also love the live versions of Station Man on Madison Blues, especially the second one, where Danny rips the **** out of the guitar solo.

[chiliD]

Great: This is the Rock, Station Man, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel-Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, and Tell Me All the Things You Do

Good: Blood on the Floor, Earl Grey, One Together, Mission Bell

"Mission Bell" has grown on me over the years...I used to dislike it immensely, but then I heard the original '50s hit again...Fleetwood Mac does it much better; even though it's more than faithful to the original. I left "Earl Grey" in the "GOOD" section...it's far & away not the quality FMac instrumental like other both earlier AND later Kirwan instrumentals; but, it is an improvement over its earlier incarnation under the title "Farewell" on the Vaudeville Years set.

[snoot]

aleuzzi: Kiln House is one of those rare, earthy classics without any pretention or glitz. All of the songs are catchy and played with an earnest charm so far removed from the Tango years you'd think it was not only a different band but a different century.

On the head! Refreshing, with a slight 50s-retro, country-tinged feel to it. You can also swing most of the GOOD songs to GREAT depending on your mood or time of day. I also like your "live" comments.

chiliD: "Mission Bell" has grown on me over the years...I used to dislike it immensely, but then I heard the original '50s hit again...Fleetwood Mac does it much better.

Funny you mention that. I remember going through a similar transformation, of not fully appreciating its charms initially (but that was a few decades back lol). But boy did that change as time went on. John carries that song with his gorgeous bass line, accented by taps and chimes. Jeremy's vocals are spot on, with Christy's additional backing sending it further skyward (including the opening refrain of "Say You Love Me" - how fitting). And then it ends! [the greatest gems always are short and sweet, you know]

Earl Gray - Danny continuing the tradition first set by PG with Albatross, Fleetwood Mac, Underway, etc., the instrumental interlude or closer. The tradition rolled on in Kirwan's My Dream and Sunny Side Of Heaven, then Welch's arpeggio laden Safe Harbor and spacey "semi" Coming Home. And lastly, Weston's ethereal Caught In The Rain from the Penguin project.

Hank Marvin & the Shadows' "Midnight" anyone?

[snoot]

And lest someone call me on it, how could I overlook "World In Harmony", the only track ever to receive a "Kirwan, Green" joint songwriting credit (though it sounds a tad more K than G to these ears).

[slipkid]

Great: This is the Rock, Station Man, Hi Ho Silver, Jewel-Eyed Judy, Buddy's Song, and Tell Me All the Things You Do

Good: Blood on the Floor, Earl Grey, One Together, Mission Bell

"Mission Bell" has grown on me over the years...I used to dislike it immensely, but then I heard the original '50s hit again...Fleetwood Mac does it much better;

What I like about Mission Bell is the first 15-20 seconds. With Christine McVie singing back-up, it sounds like a Marty Balin/Grace Slick Jefferson Airplane song. That's what Kirwan brought to FM, his pop sensibilities.

I let a friend borrow Kiln House who happens to like the Green/Kirwan era. I was trying to point out that there was life after Green's departure. When he heard Tell Me All the Things You Do, he thought the song was incomplete. I think he has a point, it's just a verse without a chorus or bridge. I already knew that, yet I still love the song.

[slipkid]

And lest someone call me on it, how could I overlook "World In Harmony", the only track ever to receive a "Kirwan, Green" joint songwriting credit (though it sounds a tad more K than G to these ears).

It was the B-side to "The Green Manalishi". You're right that it's more Kirwan than Green, Kirwan had the original idea.

My greats and goods:

Great: Station Man, Jewel Eyed Judy, Earl Grey, This is the Rock, Hi-Ho Silver, Tell Me All the Things You Do

Good: Blood on the Floor, Mission Bell (after the intro), One Together, Buddy's Song (I'd rather have Linda on this album)



Call me crazy but, I think Jewel Eyed Judy had an influence on Freddie Mercury and Brian May. Along with The Green Manalishi, I think both future members of Queen were listening to this period of FM. Kirwan's use of dynamics in the chorus of Jewel Eyed Judy is what Queen borrowed in later years. DK took Green's solo approach as a guitarist, and applied it to songwriting.

[PenguinHead]

I love Kiln House...such a transitory album - and the first to feature Christine - as a sessions player! I have a friend in her 50's . When she found out I was a Fleetwood Mac fan, she immediately mentioned the Kiln House album. She is just a passing fan, but she said that album was very popular among her friends when it came out. (I burned her a copy. ) She was really sentimental about it (Sentimental Lady... but that's another album). It was such an out-of-left-field moment.
I love that the Rumours era band early on covered Station Man & Tell Me All The Things They Do. They certainly BuckinghamNicksed them.

[snoot]

[Mission Bell] With Christine McVie singing back-up, it sounds like a Marty Balin/Grace Slick Jefferson Airplane song.

Marty Balin/Grace Slick <=> Jeremy Spencer/Christie McVie might be even more apropos me thinks.
Don't forget David LaFlamme/Pattie Santos, another dynamite duo from the city by the bay.

When he heard Tell Me All the Things You Do, he thought the song was incomplete. I think he has a point, it's just a verse without a chorus or bridge. I already knew that, yet I still love the song.

Same here. Hot guitar licks, nice pump, but the song is only a B compositionally. That's why I rated it as Good only. Earl Gray was toughest for me. That could go on either side of the fence, in fact it really should be Great but for its melancholy aura.

It was the B-side to "The Green Manalishi". You're right that it's more Kirwan than Green, Kirwan had the original idea.

Ah good to know. Peter probably rounded it out a bit.

Call me crazy but, I think Jewel Eyed Judy had an influence on Freddie Mercury and Brian May.

Interesting notion. Brian had such a unique guitar tone and style, and of course Freddie with his theatrical pop embrace... I can see shades of what you're getting at. Call it the intersection where May meets McCartney = *Kirwan Boulevard* lol

Hey slipkid, consider revisiting the 'Interesting Read' thread and tossing in your 2 cents on the question I left there at the end re the Welch+Weston duo. I'd be interested in your take on MTM, and why so many blues purists - bless their pointed little heads - are such snobs when it comes to giving "Welch love." Make sure you put a good ear to MTM before casting your pearls.

[snoot]

I love Kiln House...such a transitory album - and the first to feature Christine - as a sessions player!

Hey PenguinHead, you can't post to a thread like this one without playin' the ranking game. You know the rules.

But more importantly, inquiring minds would love to know. :p

[SteveMacD]

I love Kiln House...such a transitory album - and the first to feature Christine - as a sessions player!
CORRECTION: Christine's first Fleetwood Mac album as a session player was Mr. Wonderful. In fact, to date, the only Fleetwood Mac albums she's not on are Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac and Blues Jam Session At Chess/Fleetwood Mac In Chicago.

[snoot]

CORRECTION: Christine's first Fleetwood Mac album as a session player was Mr. Wonderful. In fact, to date, the only Fleetwood Mac albums she's not on are Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac and Blues Jam Session At Chess/Fleetwood Mac In Chicago.

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!

[slipkid]

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!

She only played organ or piano on any recording prior to "Kiln House". Check out the outtakes of "Need Your Love So Bad" from disc 3 (Pious Bird of Good Omen) of the Blue Horizon Sessions box set. There are several versions with Christine playing either organ or piano. I prefer the organ version because it's without strings.


Sorry about Mission Bell, I forgot that was Spencer who was singing.

[aleuzzi]

CORRECTION: Christine's first Fleetwood Mac album as a session player was Mr. Wonderful. In fact, to date, the only Fleetwood Mac albums she's not on are Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac and Blues Jam Session At Chess/Fleetwood Mac In Chicago.

This is true. In fact, her presence on Mr. Wonderful is arguably more substantial than it is on Kiln House. Her piano playing on the Green tunes is inspired, even more so than her playing with Chicken Shack, I think, because she's interacting with better players.

[aleuzzi]

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!


On Mr. Wonderful, she plays piano on all of the Peter Green compositions. (Jeremy, according to Mike Vernon and clear aural evidence) plays piano on his own tunes. So, she's directly involved with half the album. Her presence here is substantial.

On Then Play On, she plays piano on Coming Your Way--and possibly one or another tune.

On Need Your Love So Bad, she plays organ. There are several out takes of her trying the tune first on piano.

On Kiln House, she sings harmony on Station Man. I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

She does not play at all on the Mac's first album, their Live in Chicago dates, or a number of their singles and early Danny compositions.

[snoot]

slipkid: She only played organ or piano on any recording prior to "Kiln House".

That's what I always thought. If there was some surprise vocal track somewhere I would have loved to discover it.

slipkid: Sorry about Mission Bell, I forgot that was Spencer who was singing.

Easy to do. In the higher register, he sounds amazingly similar to Kirwan.

aleuzzi: This is true. In fact, her presence on Mr. Wonderful is arguably more substantial than it is on Kiln House.

I never really knew the extent of it on MW, probably because I don't spin that one up as often as I should. And then of course Jeremy is always sneaking his hands on the keys, so there's inevitable confusion when you don't put an attentative ear to it. Remember Oh Well? I guess we can all be thankful compilation notes occasionally surface, though there's a shortage of them around my place. :distress:

Christy was such a talented blues pianist, I know the guys all admired her abilities, Green leading the pack.

aleuzzi: On Kiln House, she sings harmony on Station Man.

She sings on more than that.

aleuzzi: I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

If that's not her on TMATTYD, I don't know who it is. Jeremy wasn't bad either though, I wouldn't call his playing primitive by any means. A completely different style than Christie's, with more honky tonk elements infused. Most of what we hear on KH is JS. That production is every bit as much his as Danny's, he really shines throughout. But it's to DK's credit he was reined in a bit, and didn't go off the mocksong deep end. As it was, he was perfectly measured. I often wish they did a follow up, with Christy fully credited, but Jeremy's heart just wasn't in it. Of course they were all apprehensive, borderline gloomy, as to a future without PG.

BTW CM would not have remained uncredited on that project except for contractual litigation [CS] going on at the time preventing it.

aleuzzi: Her piano playing on the Green tunes is inspired, even more so than her playing with Chicken Shack, I think, because she's interacting with better players.

Me thinks you're onto something here, for sure. Actually Chicken Shack is a pale comparison to what the Mac could deliver, there is no real comparison. Some back in the day used to call them Chicken ****, but that might be carrying it too far. More of that had to do with Stan Webb (the mumbler bumbler, king of "What's that Stan?") than Perfect. She was universally liked - and generally preferred. But Webbie could entertain, if nothing else. wOOt wOOt :laugh:

[SteveMacD]

Me thinks you're onto something here, for sure. Actually Chicken Shack is a pale comparison to what the Mac could deliver, there is no real comparison. Some back in the day used to call them Chicken ****, but that might be carrying it too far. More of that had to do with Stan Webb (the mumbler bumbler, king of "What's that Stan?") than Perfect. She was universally liked - and generally preferred. But Webbie could entertain, if nothing else. wOOt wOOt :laugh:

In hindsight, I think adding Kirwan was an odd (though brilliant) decision. Christine would have, IMO, been the most obvious choice. Of course, if that HAD happened, I doubt the band would have made it to 1975.

[snoot]

In hindsight, I think adding Kirwan was an odd (though brilliant) decision. Christine would have, IMO, been the most obvious choice. Of course, if that HAD happened, I doubt the band would have made it to 1975.

Totally agree, but that's to Peter and Mick's credit - and foresight. Pete was looking for support and additional bounce, and he found it in spades with Danny. Kirwan brought the best out in Green, just as PG elevated DK to new heights with his mentoring. It was a great duo, no way around it.

This isn't to shortchange Christine, as really she, John and Mick form the continuum throughout. A big part of the "consistency factor" is due to them always being there, on all the projects. But circa 1969 ~ 1970, Christie could not bring to the table what Danny could. He was the full package, a fuse fully lit and ready to take off (in more ways than one).

Danny also introduced harmony to Fleetwood Mac, which furthered heightened their shift from their purer blues-rock roots. Beyond his melodic lead vocals, listen closely to his voice pairings with Jeremy, with Christie, with Bob. It's all good. And on the guitar, his improvisational gifts and slick string bends aside, his sense of rhythm was second to none. As I see it, Green begat Kirwan, and Kirwan set the tone for the rest of Fleetwood Mac history, right up to the present. I see all the other players as adding to this ongoing evolution, substantially for sure, but he was the genesis of it all (and chops to Peter for letting that happen).

PS. There's a reason Danny got the FM HOF nod when Welch, Weston, Walker, Burnette, Vito, Mason and Bramlett didn't (but of course that's another story, as they ALL should have been included).

[BklynBlue]

Without going into all of the discrepancies in the each of the various "official" listings for the BBC recordings on August 26 & 27 (and the listings do not even agree that there were two dates!)
All of the listings, save one, for the session(s) do however show Christine Perfect participating in the recordings:
in Peter Lewry’s “Fleetwood Mac: The Complete Recording Sessions 1967 – 1992” , she is credited for keyboards only; in the discography included in Martin Celmins’ “Peter Green – The Biography”, the credit reads keyboards and vocals; in “In Session Tonight – The Complete Radio 1 Recordings” by Ken Garner, she is said to have only contributed vocals.
The liner notes to “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC” (Castle 2001) list her simply as a “guest” on the three tracks taken from the sessions.
It is only Christopher Hjort’s “Strange Brew: The British Blues Boom 1965-1970” in which her name is not attached to the sessions.

None of the currently availabe tracks from the session(s) including bootlegs have any piano at all, with the exception of "Hawaiian Boogie" (it is heard in the opening bars and it is almost certainly Spencer playing) -
Of the unreleased titles, the most likely suspects would be Green's "If You Be My Baby" (she played on the studio original) or more intriguingly, "Crazy For My Baby" -
We are at at deceided disadvantage in not being able to actually hear the song, (the rather generic title does not make it any easier to identify) but it is possible that is Kirwan covering a Little Walter title here -
Could it be that this was a precusor to the post Green "Can't Hold Out Much Longer", Kirwan's radical rearrangement of another Little Walter song - and that Christine took the lead vocal on this number also?
It does seem strange that within a week of joining he would have found time to collaborate with Christine, (he must have known this would be a "one-off", unless there had been talks of her also joining the band....it would help to explain why the BBC archives have her listed on the session -

[aleuzzi]

slipkid:

aleuzzi: [I]I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

If that's not her on TMATTYD, I don't know who it is. Jeremy wasn't bad either though, I wouldn't call his playing primitive by any means. A completely different style than Christie's, with more honky tonk elements infused. Most of what we hear on KH is JS. That production is every bit as much his as Danny's, he really shines throughout. But it's to DK's credit he was reined in a bit, and didn't go off the mocksong deep end. As it was, he was perfectly measured. I often wish they did a follow up, with Christy fully credited, but Jeremy's heart just wasn't in it. Of course they were all apprehensive, borderline gloomy, as to a future without PG.



Jeremy could play a mean piano but he often intentionally went in for that primitive piano style, especially on MW. For what it's worth, I think it's him playing the excellent piano part on the BBC version of Honey Hush.

[snoot]

Jeremy could play a mean piano but he often intentionally went in for that primitive piano style, especially on MW. For what it's worth, I think it's him playing the excellent piano part on the BBC version of Honey Hush.

Good point. Effective accenting - with admittedly a less than stellar chip or two along the way.

In fairness to JS, he often wondered where he stood once DK arrived. He became the odd man out in many ways. He also felt a three guitar front was overkill (he was right), so he looked to add where he could most effectively. His slide contros were good, but rarely rose above the din (though some provide key accents and hooks). That's why I'm glad we have Kiln House for posterity sake, with his legacy as a contributor to FM fully anchored. If not he would mostly be seen as a side player, a reluctant contributor, on the projects. His stage presence was something else, but even there he had ambivalent feelings, especially as time went on.

Christy was stage shy too. It was Welch who first took the point man to full measure, eventually as solo guitarist into the bargain. That wasn't easy. Those stage scenes sans Weston were good and tight, but it was a completely different vibe by that point. Folks often came expecting big guns and thunder, a two or even three guitar front as before (with some expecting Green himself!), and many were pretty much shell-shocked by this mellow, spacey, kicked back Welchian sound. At one concert I witnessed, Bob waved the whole band off the stage halfway into their set due to poor audience response, never to return. Of course it didn't help having a funk n boogie band before them, getting the crowd all pumped and lathered (name withheld to protect the innocent). Second rate one too.

[snoot]

All of the listings, save one, for the session(s) do however show Christine Perfect participating in the recordings:
in Peter Lewry’s “Fleetwood Mac: The Complete Recording Sessions 1967 – 1992” , she is credited for keyboards only;
in the discography included in Martin Celmins’ “Peter Green – The Biography”, the credit reads keyboards and vocals;
in “In Session Tonight – The Complete Radio 1 Recordings” by Ken Garner, she is said to have only contributed vocals.

Yeah it's kind of a mess, isn't it? The ever elusive "authorative" accounting. :laugh:

The liner notes to “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC” (Castle 2001) list her simply as a “guest” on the three tracks taken from the sessions.
It is only Christopher Hjort’s “Strange Brew: The British Blues Boom 1965-1970” in which her name is not attached to the sessions.

And but more confusion (grrrr). It's hard to reconstruct that kind of minutiae from the often less-than-sterling notes logged at the time. It's as much art as science to do it, especially after the fact.

None of the currently availabe tracks from the session(s) including bootlegs have any piano at all, with the exception of "Hawaiian Boogie" (it is heard in the opening bars and it is almost certainly Spencer playing)

And but more of the same... :( Now keep in mind, we're mostly talking about her participation on their originally released productions, and not as much the unissued, compilation, bootleg or live material.

Of the unreleased titles, the most likely suspects would be Green's "If You Be My Baby" (she played on the studio original) or more intriguingly, "Crazy For My Baby" -
We are at at deceided disadvantage in not being able to actually hear the song, (the rather generic title does not make it any easier to identify) but it is possible that is Kirwan covering a Little Walter title here -
Could it be that this was a precusor to the post Green "Can't Hold Out Much Longer", Kirwan's radical rearrangement of another Little Walter song - and that Christine took the lead vocal on this number also?

You tell me. :D

It does seem strange that within a week of joining he would have found time to collaborate with Christine, (he must have known this would be a "one-off", unless there had been talks of her also joining the band....it would help to explain why the BBC archives have her listed on the session.

Christine Perfect was a groupie of the band back then, a prim and proper one mind you. Since she could play the blues piano so well, the guys took to her quickly. Peter in particular saw her as an effective "fit" for the band, though only as a sideman. She also had an established name with her involvement in Chicken Shack. Christy seemed to work well with Danny initially too, he even writing, producing and arranging (strings) for her showcase single When You Say (at age 19) for her first solo album -- but it wasn't all smooth sailing as time went on. Strangely enough, Danny and Jeremy really hit it off well during the Kiln House project; their relationship was never better. And I think it shows.

[SteveMacD]

PS. There's a reason Danny got the FM HOF nod when Welch, Weston, Walker, Burnette, Vito, Mason and Bramlett didn't (but of course that's another story, as they ALL should have been included).
But, Danny's talent isn't why he was included. He was a member of one of the two incarnations that were inducted. Danny might not have written Albatross, Man Of The World, Oh Well, Rattlesnake Shake, or The Green Manalishi, but he played on those songs.

[snoot]

But, Danny's talent isn't why he was included. He was a member of one of the two incarnations that were inducted. Danny might not have written Albatross, Man Of The World, Oh Well, Rattlesnake Shake, or The Green Manalishi, but he played on those songs.

Possibly - or perhaps "as stated" - but with the cherry picking they were doing, I almost expected him to be overlooked as well. After all, he was not in the initial incarnation of the band, coming to the fold a full year after the band's formation (and with two albums already notched successfully under their belts), so he could just as easily have been left in the induction dust. He had to be included because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac to their greatest early heights, and made such profound - and lasting - changes on that entity we call the Mac. [refer to your own quote above for further evidence, and that was just the start]

Beyond that, I for the life of me cannot figure out how or why the others were not included. Too many folks on stage to jam at once? Of course not, as we came to see! And why just two incarnations, as opposed to one, or maybe three? Pretty arbitrary from my distant perch. The greatest crime was the Bob Welch slight of course; that was beyond the pale. Moral of the story: don't ask or litigate for recompense! But it was a slight to all the others too. It's just one more reason the HOF = FOS.

[SteveMacD]

Possibly - or perhaps "as stated" - but with the cherry picking they were doing, I almost expected him to be overlooked as well. After all, he was not in the initial incarnation of the band, coming to the fold a full year after the band's formation (and with two albums already notched successfully under their belts), so he could just as easily have been left in the induction dust.

That's assuming they were being inducted for those two albums. I don't see it as such, nor do I see Kiln House was a part of the induction, even though the members of the band on all of those albums were inducted.

I see the induction as being more about Black Magic Woman through The Green Manalishi, which was the band's first heyday, which Danny was most certainly a part of. Still, Peter Green was the star. But there's really no way they could have just inducted Peter Green without the rest of the band, thus the induction included Jeremy and Danny (as it should).

He had to be included because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac to their greatest early heights, and made such profound - and lasting - changes on that entity we call the Mac. [refer to your own quote above for further evidence, and that was just the start]

You're overthinking it. Danny is in because he was a member of the band when they had a bunch of Peter Green hits. We, as fans know why he's great and how he impacted the band. The Hall folks don't care about that.

Beyond that, I for the life of me cannot figure out how or why the others were not included. Too many folks on stage to jam at once? Of course not, as we came to see! And why just two incarnations, as opposed to one, or maybe three? Pretty arbitrary from my distant perch. The greatest crime was the Bob Welch slight of course; that was beyond the pale. Moral of the story: don't ask or litigate for recompense! But it was a slight to all the others too. It's just one more reason the HOF = FOS.

Pretty simple, really. The others weren't on hit albums and didn't have big hit singles. No hits=no dice. Welch-era wasn't a hit. Burnette-era wasn't a hit. Great stuff. ESSENTIAL stuff. And, they SHOULD have been included.

[snoot]

That's assuming they were being inducted for those two albums. I don't see it as such, nor do I see Kiln House was a part of the induction, even though the members of the band on all of those albums were inducted.

I never knew bands were considered on a per album basis. How is Kiln House or Future Games any less a Mac effort than any other release? Did Mr. Wonderful not pave the road for Then Play On, and that in turn for Kiln House, and that for etc <-> etc? If not, you're conveniently segregating and fencing projects, and that equates to cherry picking.

I see the induction as being more about Black Magic Woman through The Green Manalishi, which was the band's first heyday, which Danny was most certainly a part of. Still, Peter Green was the star. But there's really no way they could have just inducted Peter Green without the rest of the band, thus the induction included Jeremy and Danny (as it should).

Oh wait! I see what you're getting at now. The HOF is a Billboard Top 40 front. Ok, gotchya! More arbitrary, rose rimmed viewing and screening processes at work here? Now as I see it, Peter Green never reached heavenly Mac heights until Danny came aboard, star power notwithstanding [see that original quote of yours I cited earlier for more on this]

You're overthinking it. Danny is in because he was a member of the band when they had a bunch of Peter Green hits. We, as fans know why he's great and how he impacted the band. The Hall folks don't care about that.

It's wasn't the HOF directors' call, it was Fleetwood Mac's. The band could have engineered the induction prerequisites differently if they wanted to. No one held a gun to their collective head(s) on the matter.

Pretty simple, really. The others weren't on hit albums and didn't have big hit singles. No hits=no dice. Welch-era wasn't a hit. Burnette-era wasn't a hit. Great stuff. ESSENTIAL stuff. And, they SHOULD have been included.

Well we both agree it's great stuff, but if it was ESSENTIAL, then why didn't the "Big 5" insist they wanted the personnel behind it included? Welch was pissed to the wind because Mick and Chris were pissed at him! The HOF is NOT a Billboard Top 40 front. That is not the only prerequisite for inclusion. Now on the other hand, if it somehow has metamorphosed into this (and if it has, kindly point out where it's stated as such), then it really is FOS. In spades.

So tell me, how many Hit Singles did the Velvet Underground have? How the heck did they get in there, and before Fleetwood Mac made it?? No hits=no dice, right? Beyond hit singles, none of their album releases ever reached anywhere close to the 1970-1974 Mac releases per the charts. See what I mean by arbitrary?

Then there's the recent Dave Clark Five "bypass," unfairly bumped vote-wise in favor of a rap act! Only to be let in the following year, once the news of the behind-the-scene shenanigans broke. To their credit, at least the Sex Pistols (of all peeps) refused to attend the ceremony after they were inducted, calling the museum "a piss stain". Bloody right.

BTW I know where you stand, as we see eye to eye with basically everything sentiment-wise except who was behind the final decision-making. It boils down to this. If that stuffy board put it to Mick and the gang that less than the full cast were going to be inducted, they should have - and could have - said FORGET IT. And if they meant it, kissed their asses goodbye. But it would never have come to this.

[snoot]

PS. The Bob Welch led Heroes Are Hard To Find album did reach the Top 40 charts by the way, climbing to #34 in 1974 to be precise. That beat anything the PG Mac did stateside on the charts, and by a wide margin. To my knowledge the best the Velvet Underground ever saw was #171 on Billboard, not even a Top 100 entry. That equates to relatively poor sales, much less hit albums. But they're deemed worthy of the alter, no doubt based on "name power" or "hipness" or some other enlightened qualifier.

Proving some get the love, and some don't. :shrug:

[Street_Dreamer]

Blood On The Floor is one of my all-time favorite Fleetwood Mac songs, and without question my favorite contribution from Jeremy to the band.

Matt

[SteveMacD]

There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. The Grateful Dead were obviously going to be inducted, and the Hall met Jerry Gracia's demands that everybody be included. With Traffic, Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi have said that they didn't consider Dave Mason to be a full member of the band, yet he was inducted, whereas none of the others who joined later were inducted. With the Byrds, the only ones inducted were the original members, which had the hits, whereas HIGLY influential latter-day members like Gram Parsons and Clarence White were omitted.

With Fleetwood Mac, it's a bit odd, but I see how they came to that decision. Peter Green wrote a bunch of hits, Christine McVie wrote a bunch of hits, Stevie Nicks wrote a bunch of hits, Lindsey Buckingham wrote a bunch of hits, and Mick and John played on everything, and that Danny and Jeremy played on Peter's stuff means they get included, too. But, I was pissed that a guy who was on five albums and another guy who was in the band for eight years got passed over. What I find especially odd is that the Hall lists Sentimental Lady as an essential song on their Fleetwood Mac page.
Essential Songs

Don’t Stop
Rhiannon
The Chain
Dreams
Oh Well
Landslide
Go Your Own Way
Tusk
Black Magic Woman
Sentimental Lady

[snoot]

There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. The Grateful Dead were obviously going to be inducted, and the Hall met Jerry Gracia's demands that everybody be included. With Traffic, Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi have said that they didn't consider Dave Mason to be a full member of the band, yet he was inducted, whereas none of the others who joined later were inducted. With the Byrds, the only ones inducted were the original members, which had the hits, whereas HIGLY influential latter-day members like Gram Parsons and Clarence White were omitted.

Right, but now you're proving me right. Induction doesn't stem around making hits alone, and Garcia (as loyal a cat as there is in the biz) proves the hall directors will acquiesce to group demands. So why didn't the Big 5 take the high road on the issue? Could it be they didn't care? You tell me.

With Fleetwood Mac, it's a bit odd, but I see how they came to that decision. Peter Green wrote a bunch of hits, Christine McVie wrote a bunch of hits, Stevie Nicks wrote a bunch of hits, Lindsey Buckingham wrote a bunch of hits, and Mick and John played on everything, and that Danny and Jeremy played on Peter's stuff means they get included, too.

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that. I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

But, I was pissed that a guy who was on five albums and another guy who was in the band for eight years got passed over. What I find especially odd, in light of Bob not being inducted, is that on their page on the Hall's website, it lists Sentimental Lady as an essential song.

And that's the crime. It isn't "odd", his exclusion was premeditated - and petty to the max. That makes it worse.

To think, TWO Fleetwood Mac album titles directly reference his compositions! What a hoot.

Essential Welch Songs

Sentimental Lady
Hypnotized
Miles Away
Keep On Going
Future Games
Bermuda Triangle


Those alone should put anyone in that silly shrine.

[chiliD]

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that. I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

It's true that Peter's playing took another leap when Danny joined the band, but I serioiusly don't think it was DIRECTLY due to Danny himself. It could've been any decent guitarist joining the band that would've inspired Peter. Jeremy either wasn't able or just downright didn't want to take on what Peter needed...a guitar foill; somebody to push him to play better...Danny just happened along. You're making it seem as if Danny was to Peter as Duane Allman was to Eric Clapton during the making of Layla and I don't see that at all.

[SteveMacD]

Right, but now you're proving me right. Induction doesn't stem around making hits alone, and Garcia (as loyal a cat as there is in the biz) proves the hall directors will acquiesce to group demands. So why didn't the Big 5 take the high road on the issue? Could it be they didn't care? You tell me.
Hmmm...You seem to know how to cherry pick, too. My two opening sentences said it all: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. I don't know that Fleetwood Mac had as much say as you think they had.

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that.

But, that's their legacy on popular culture. While FG and MTM had an amazing impact on me personally, I can't say that it had a major impact on popular culture. That's reality.

I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

Peter was ready to move away from the blues and on to bigger things. Jeremy was happy being the mimick, so they needed a foil. That's where Danny came in. That it was Danny is honestly inconsequential. Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band, the vision was still Peter's on those songs.

And that's the crime. It isn't "odd", his exclusion was premeditated - and petty to the max. That makes it worse.

See, I don't know how much of that list was the band's decision and how much is the Hall's decision. I could just as easily see two or three higher-ups coming up with that list as I could the band. However, I don't know. The Hall has bent over backwards for some bands, but not others. (EDIT: i.e. was it a couple of suits that said "well, this is who we're going to induct from Fleetwood Mac, and if they don't like it, they're out" OR was it the band say "eh, f*ck those guys?" That Mick has maintained relationships with Bob Welch, Billy, and Rick, it looks to me like it was more the Hall's decision than the band's.)

In any event, I wouldn't be upset about it. The fact Madonna is in and Gram Parsons, Clarence White, Randy Bachman, Rush, Kiss, Yes, and Genesis to name but a few are not tells me all I need to know about that "institution."

[snoot]

It's true that Peter's playing took another leap when Danny joined the band, but I serioiusly don't think it was DIRECTLY due to Danny himself. It could've been any decent guitarist joining the band that would've inspired Peter. Jeremy either wasn't able or just downright didn't want to take on what Peter needed...a guitar foill; somebody to push him to play better...Danny just happened along. You're making it seem as if Danny was to Peter as Duane Allman was to Eric Clapton during the making of Layla and I don't see that at all.

Can't agree with your assessment. Sorry if you see Danny as just another "decent guitarist" (that's the understatement of the year btw lol). It wasn't a foil Green needed, it was a partner in crime. Danny provided that like few others could (Jeremy couldn't have even if he wanted to; he wasn't as gifted on the instrument, or as a songsmith). Danny didn't "just happened along" either, he was actively recruited. Pete and producer Mike Vernon were first gunning for Danny to be his own frontman with his own act, but they couldn't find musicians worthy of the 18 year old lad (to include his Boilerhouse cohorts). The more Pete saw Danny and his guitar prowess in action, the more he realized he was the missing piece in the Mac puzzle (and as history has shown, he was).

PG had his eyes wide open at the time, and took DK under his wing like no other. By the TPO sessions they resembled full fledged partners more than anything else, equals on every level. Mike Vernon has stated that in those early days, Kirwan was so into the guitar that he cried as he played. Bob Welch has stated that Green was pretty much equally matched by Kirwan on the instrument. Those insider assessments don't point to another "decent guitarist" my friend. But hell, just put your ear to it. There's more of Kirwan's guitar on Then Play On, Peter's crowning achievement, than Green's! "Ragtime Cowboy Joe" and "Young Eyes" were always complimentary pet names given to Danny by Green, and nothing else.

BTW your analogy of Allman/Clapton is apropos, but so would be Allman/Betts as we went over before. Call it the mssing element.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. These three say a lot, the first and last in particular.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/starz75/Images/FleetwoodMac-LiveatBBC.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/starz75/Images/FM-londonunderway1.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/starz75/Images/Fmac-02.jpg

[snoot]

Hmmm...You seem to know how to cherry pick, too. My two opening sentences said it all: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. I don't know that Fleetwood Mac had as much say as you think they had.

Geez Steve, we're starting to going round in circles now. I figured you were better than that. You just provided a perfect reference to contradict your latest statement here. If Garcia could do it, so could anyone else! Especially an act as big as Fleetwood Mac. How did Jerry come to carry such a big stick? Get real.

But, that's their legacy on popular culture. While FG and MTM had an amazing impact on me personally, I can't say that it had a major impact on popular culture. That's reality.

Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Peter was ready to move away from the blues and on to bigger things. Jeremy was happy being the mimick, so they needed a foil. That's where Danny came in. That it was Danny is honestly inconsequential. Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band, the vision was still Peter's on those songs.

Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction. Go read what I wrote above. Fleetwood Mac did rise above the blues, only you never get the memo on Kirwan's influence making that happen. He also accents and harmonizes Green's tunes like no other.

See, I don't know how much of that list was the band's decision and how much is the Hall's decision. I could just as easily see two or three higher-ups coming up with that list as I could the band. However, I don't know. The Hall has bent over backwards for some bands, but not others. (EDIT: i.e. was it a couple of suits that said "well, this is who we're going to induct from Fleetwood Mac, and if they don't like it, they're out" OR was it the band say "eh, f*ck those guys?"

To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

That Mick has maintained relationships with Bob Welch, Billy, and Rick, it looks to me like it was more the Hall's decision than the band's.

Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

In any event, I wouldn't be upset about it. The fact Madonna is in and Gram Parsons, Clarence White, Randy Bachman, Rush, Kiss, Yes, and Genesis to name but a few are not tells me all I need to know about that "institution."

I don't have to be upset about it, it isn't worth the angst. I'm only pointing out a serious black spot on the band's legacy that HOF helped create. That Welch was stiffed by his former bandmates in that way, after all he contributed to FM, should not be dismissed with the wave of a hand. Christ, they would never have found SoCal - and therefore Buckingham & Nicks - if it weren't for Bob taking them there, and then resigning after he was spent. DAYUM

[SteveMacD]

Geez Steve, we're starting to going round in circles now. I figured you were better than that. You just provided a perfect reference to contradict your latest statement here. If Garcia could do it, so could anyone else!
For the third time: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. Now, to make it simpler, some bands have more power than other bands because they're considered more important than other bands.

Especially an act as big as Fleetwood Mac. How did Jerry come to carry such a big stick? Get real.
Prior to 1997, Fleetwood Mac had fallen out of the public eye. They had the reunion, and I think the timing for them was right. They could have argued a little harder, but would rather have had that moment. In other words, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.
I agree it's lame, but it's the Hall of Fame. Any body that would put Madonna in before Yes, Rush, or Genesis is, by definition, lame.

If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!
Because, those bands have had a lasting impact on popular culture. Punk rock and art rock are as alive today as ever, and most of those bands cite VU or the Pistols as influences. Hell, I was listening to both bands earlier today.

Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction.
No. I'm actually rock solid, here. One is Danny's impact on Peter Green, the other is more a reference to what he did for the band in the wake of Peter's departure. I agree with ChiliD. Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill. Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House. Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too.

Go read what I wrote above. Fleetwood Mac did rise above the blues, only you never get the memo on Kirwan's influence making that happen. He also accents and harmonizes Green's tunes like no other.
I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.
I'm still not conviced.

Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.
Ummm, you're totally wrong. The lawsuit was settled, Bob and Mick are talking, Bob was at the band's 2003 Nashville show, and Mick recently played or agreed to play a benefit for Bob's wife. Also, Billy was involved in the Mick Fleetwood Band about two years ago, and that morphed into the Mick Fleetwood Blues Band, which is basically lead by Rick Vito. Yeah, them grapes are still sour.


Read Bob's Second Q&A session (http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/fwm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=119)


Hello Bob and welcome back. Thanks for coming in for more punishment! First of all a belated happy birthday to you. Secondly I hope this time you have come prepared with a secretary and some muscle relaxant gel, my friend and your alphanumeric nemesis, Mr Steve Denison is still here and ready to bombard you again! Good luck! haha.

I must start off by saying your first Q&A was by far the most entertaining I have seen here and thanks for such in depth answers. I'll start my stint with a three parter..

I guess this question has already been put to you but I understand (from what I hear) you met up with the band on the current Say You Will tour and put to bed some differences with Mick. Are you both in a better place with each other now, so to speak?

Secondly I love your new album and "Like Rain" is never off my Walkman at the moment. It seems to me that both yourself and also, Lindsey respectively, are playing and crafting your material better than ever. Your vocal performances are very good indeed on this album and I was wondering If you feel as Lindsey does, that you are getting more and more creative later in your career? It certainly seems so with another singer/guitarist that spends a lot of time in Nashville these days, Mr Mark Knopfler.

Thirdly, I recall you saying you would love to play with Peter Green if at all possible, is this still something you would love to do? (hey, next time I meet him, I'll put your reply to him, if it's yes!)

Thanks Bob, More Later. (Justin Bailey, Manchester, UK)

Thanks for the birthday wishes etc... Yes, Mick's wife called and invited us to FM's Nashville show..a very nice gesture. I've actually had a couple of conversations w/Mick since 2000, but the N'Ville show is the 1st time I've seen him in the flesh. He was very warm...we don't talk about the lawsuit at all. For one thing I can't, really, ...and he can't as per our settlement. But even if I could, I wouldn't want to....It was sort of like , "we're all getting older....let's move on"

Yes I do feel I'm playing /singing better now than 20 or 30 years ago....Too little too late I guess ;-) I'm just 100% confident of what I can....and can't do now, in my "maturity" ..(ugh!) I feel I have complete control of my craft, and after all these years, I finally know how to get any desired musical result. I'm sure Lindsey feels the same way...It's not that I'm more creative...it's that I waste less time on useless b----hit than I used to. But there's a famous cliche ; if youth only knew....if age only could !

Thanks for the kind words about "Like Rain" !

I'd absolutely love to play with Pete Green....or Lindsey for that matter....The time horizon ain't what it used to be, and we have to make hay while the sun still shines..


This was posted on the Sheryl Crow is joining Fleetwood Mac!!! thread over on the Rumours forum on 04-23-2008 at 08:08 PM
I think exactly that...I don't like the idea...I hate to say unpleasant things about a fellow artist.....but IMO Sheryl Crow will do ANYTHING to get her face out there....a commercial, a charity, a "guest shot"....she's right up there with Brett Michaels....ANYTHING for publicity....embarassing...nothing to do with music....everything to do with self-promotion of the worst kind.This next is a truly , truly horrible thing to say....but, IMO, and forgive me if I'm wrong.....even the marriage to Lance Armstrong smacks of a publicity stunt to me....There is an old one-liner in showbiz that" dying is a great career move". I ( and I know this sounds terribly mean spirited), I think that if Crow could manage to "die" somehow, for awhile...and then magically reappear...she'd do it. And BTW; recently my wife was (THANK GOD) MIS-diagnosed with a fast moving form of liver cancer...We were told, erroneously thank GOD, that the chemo and other treatment could completely bust our lifetime insurance cap....and that we better start thinking about maybe doing some fundraisers...we were panicked..I immediately got on the phone and started calling;....1st Mick Fleetwood...Mick said he would play(we weren't asking for money, just "time and talent)anytime, anywhere...so did Rick Vito...so did Billy Burnette...so did Walter Eagan....so did Jeff Baxter. Stevie Nicks and Lindsey didn't bother to even return my calls. The die is cast...I now know who's got a heart and who doesn't....REALLY got a heart, not the phony heart on sleeve BS that often passes for "empathy" in Hollywood. Sorry to have to say this...Stevie stiffed me and my wife....so did Lindsey....Mick and everybody else came through when we really thought Wendy was at death's door...A misdiagnosis, again, thank God. I will never forget who was a friend....and who wasn't.

Bob Welch
wx-Fleetwood Mac,Capitol Records artist etc. etc.

[snoot]

For the third time: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. Now, to make it simpler, some bands have more power than other bands because they're considered more important than other bands.

Yeah it's all hocus pocus, a real rabbit-out-of-the-hat trick. Gotchya.

And of course, Grateful Dead dwarf Fleetwood Mac in raw "power," ROTFL! Have you ever compared their record sales, let alone impact on "pop culture"? Give me a break.

Prior to 1997, Fleetwood Mac had fallen out of the public eye. They had the reunion, and I think the timing for them was right. They could have argued a little harder, but would rather have had that moment. In other words, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.

That's bull. They didn't "argue" or push at all. They kept the limelight all for themselves. But keep dreaming if that's your preference.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

More exaggerations. The Dead have not outdrawn FM since the Buckingham-Nicks era. There have been attendance lulls for both bands over the years, often due to changing or MIA personnel. Counter-culture doesn't equate to "popular culture", nor record sales. The Dead are a big act, but to argue they leave the Mac bested by any type of sales or attendance measuring sticks is like whistling in the dark. Want to compare official sales charts? :D

snoot Quote:
Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

I agree it's lame, but it's the Hall of Fame. Any body that would put Madonna in before Yes, Rush, or Genesis is, by definition, lame.

We agree here, big time. There's hope yet! :blob2:

snoot Quote:
If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Because, those bands have had a lasting impact on popular culture. Punk rock and art rock are as alive today as ever, and most of those bands cite VU or the Pistols as influences. Hell, I was listening to both bands earlier today.

Before you were arguing no hits=no dice. So how many ways should we dice this thing up? While neither of us can say for certain what makes up the so called criteria, or more importantly what goes on behind the scenes, one thing is for certain: there are a HELLUVA lot of musicians in there that couldn't measure up to Welch's navel, let alone musical heights and accomplishments. You just named two imo.

snoot Quote:
Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction.

No. I'm actually rock solid, here. One is Danny's impact on Peter Green, the other is more a reference to what he did for the band in the wake of Peter's departure. I agree with ChiliD. Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill. Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House. Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too.

"Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill." => Uh, ok. Dang, and so simple too.

"Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too. "

How many times do I have to state this! Welch was stiffed because Chris and Mick were miffed. Period.

Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House.

Danny's inclusion had everything to do with his impact on the Mac. If it was "justified" (and sanctified in your eyes) by his participation with PGFM, so be it.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

Dumb argument, but go on and buy into it. You'll be making the Big 5 happy. When someone - anyone - can cherry pick Bob Welch out of the FM equation, the game is up. Checkmate. :rolleyes:

snoot Quote:
To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

I'm still not conviced.

You can lead a horse to water but ... ah, forget it.

snoot Quote:
Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

Ummm, you're totally wrong. The lawsuit was settled, Bob and Mick are talking, Bob was at the band's 2003 Nashville show, and Mick recently played or agreed to play a benefit for Bob's wife. Also, Billy was involved in the Mick Fleetwood Band about two years ago, and that morphed into the Mick Fleetwood Blues Band, which is basically lead by Rick Vito. Yeah, them grapes are still sour.

Duh of course I knew the lawsuit was settled, after mucho kicking and screaming! That was hardly Bob's fault!

Ok I didn't realize there was any kind of thawing of the ice at any time. And I don't know if the ill feelings are fully healed, or if the communication lines are still working, as we speak. My impression is that they are not. But more importantly, what you've presented is all after the fact, and has nothing to do with what went down at HOF in '98. Bob was passed over on purpose, by Mick & Chris in particular (and possibly John, though I wonder if he would have preferred it that way if left to his own devices), not the HOF board. Keep repeating your mantra so you keep yourself convinced. "La La La" works too.

But since you want to pull out basically irrelevant quotes to support your misinformed position and sidetrack what I'm trying to tell you, try this (and note, all from ONE SINGLE Q&A session, but I could pull plenty more! But alas, what would be the point? You'll believe what you want to!). :mad:

[See next post for quotes]

[snoot]

One year after HOF ceremony ...

Bob Welch, Penguin Q&A session, November 8 - 21, 1999

Bob, I have been a fan for years. The new album is great. Have you had any discussions with Mick about releasing any of the rare tracks from 1970-1974 that never made it to a Fleetwood Mac album? (Bill, Bel Air, Maryland, USA)

I'm glad you like "Bop" ! It makes me happy that somebody can enjoy a completely "non-commercial, non-marketing oriented" record !

The way it looks now, I may never talk to Mick again about anything, unless he should happen to take some "human being lessons" and some "reality check classes". I WOULD like to talk to him, because I used to ENJOY talking to him; he's very bright and has a wonderfully skewed sense of humor. Unfortunately, his sense of humor didn't seem to extend to the money they owed me ! (Or maybe it did..now I get it ! It was all a joke!...;-) Seriously, the only thing I would imagine Mick is interested in releasing is (1) Anything with Pete Green on it and, (2) anything with Stevie and Lindsey on it...
-- "Bop" Welch

Since the lawsuit in the early 1990s, have you been in contact with the other members of Fleetwood Mac? (Mark Trauernicht, Alexandria, Virginia, USA)

Hi Mark..

BTW thanks for your nice comments on my new CD ! I talk to Stevie once or twice a year, and always go to her show if she's in town... Of course my "beef" was not anything to do with Stevie or Lindsey anyway. I haven't talked to Mick, John, or Chris at all, and frankly don't expect to..

Will we ever get to hear that track that was left off of 'Mystery to Me', "Good Things (Come To Those Who Wait)"? (Mark Trauernicht, Alexandria, Virginia, USA)

Good Things" is owned by WB records, and if it was ever released, Mick , John Chris and I would have to mutually agree to it, and I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon !;-) The tape's probably self-destructed by now anyway.. ;-)

Who did you enjoy working with and why? (Jocelyn, Ruidoso, New Mexico, USA)

I enjoyed working with Jeff Baxter, because he pushes you really hard artistically. Also Alvin Taylor, my "French Kiss" drummer, and of course Fleetwood Mac, back in the happy "good old days", BWAGBAT- "Before We All Got Bitter And Twisted". ;-)

What IS up between you & the rest of F-Mac, individually or collectively?

Its an understatement to say that I was OUTRAGED at your omission from being inducted into the R&R Hall Of Fame with them! Mick's been quoted as saying, "Bob Welch saved Fleetwood Mac" and I remember the whole "bogus band" fiasco (even had tickets for one of the bogus concerts, but thanks to an informed DJ on the radio, I didn't go). Was Mick's book accurate in telling the tale of those days? (there has been speculation of the accuracy of events recounted in there being overblown for "book sales").

It just seems like you were given the short end of the stick for all you did for the band; and now it seems (from a public standpoint) in the Fleetwood Mac camp, your a "person non grata". Would that be an accurate assumption? If you would, please explain your side of the story.

Less controversial questions next time, I promise! (Steve Denison, Long Beach, California, USA)

What's up between me and the other members of FM is, I talk to Stevie and Bob Weston fairly frequently, don't talk to Mick, John or Chris at all since the lawsuit.

The RnR hall of fame thing hurt my feelings, naturally, but I think Mick would've done that even before the lawsuit. Here's why; Mick (and John, and Chris) associate Pete Green with the high flying glory days of their youth, when FM was first breaking out in Europe. They associate Stevie and Lindsey, naturally enough, with the most glamorous, successful and exciting period in FMs' history, when FM became worldwide stars. They associate MY 5 years with the band, in contrast, with a very difficult time emotionally, which it was; losing Pete Green, having to redefine what their music would be, the Davis lawsuit etc.

Even though the band survived because of what we went through in that period, it's not pleasant to think about for them,and so they DON'T think about it and pretend it doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure Stevie and Lindsey think all this b.s is pretty irrelevant , which it is, for them. Gee I'm starting to sound like Xavier Pacheco ! ;-) Stevie has always been great to me BTW... My beef with Mick, John, and Chris had absolutely nothing to do with her, or Lindsey.

What has been your greatest contribution to Fleetwood Mac? and how do you feel about the poor judgement of the Rock n' Roll Hall Of Fame excluding you as a member of Fleetwood Mac? (Anonymous)

I talked about the rock n roll HOF thing in an earlier question; please take a look at that ....;-)

I think my contribution to FM,looking back, is that I helped them redefine their sound they had lost their founding member. And, I helped them survive, as a working band, long enough to get to LA (it was my suggestion that we move there) and get a new deal on WB separate from their former manager Clifford Davis.

Hello, Bob! First let me say that your music is truly awesome! What are your plans for the near future? Are you planning a tour? Another new studio album? (If so, would it be more bop or a different style?) If given the opportunity, would you be interested in working on another studio album with Fleetwood Mac? (Hint, hint...)

Thanks, and keep up the GREAT work! (John Mauro, Almond, New York, USA)

Thanx for your nice review of my new CD! I'm not planning a tour...Maybe if the CD does real well ! I don't think I'd do another "Bop" album again, because I'm not really a jazz musician, I'm really just a BE-Bop FAN ! I'll certainly be doing another studio album at some point though. It'd be fun to be in the studio with FM, but I don't think that's likely to happen, given that I don't speak to Mick, John, or Chris. Maybe me, Lindsey, Stevie, Billy Burnette, and Rick Vito should form a band...we could call it the "Ex-Macs"!

Thanks for the great musical memories. Is there any chance of you playing with Mick, John and Chris again ? Id love to hear a new live version of "Hypnotized" or "Sentimental Lady". (Dave Podolske, Round Lake Beach, Illinois, USA)

Right now me, and Mick , John and Chris have not spoken in 5 years. That may never change ! I may someday re-record "Hypnotized" etc on my own...

What was Stevie Nicks like? I hear she was very funny, is that true? Are you a fan of her music? Did you two ever date? Have you spoken to her recently? What did you think of Fleetwood Mac after you left and it turned from blues to the way it is now? Thanks. (Melissa, Hemet, California, USA)

Yes, Stevie has a great sense of humor..she always has a "twinkle" in her eye ! We never dated, although I would sometimes hang out at her house, often with my girlfriend along. Stevie seemed to like to have a lot of people, other musicians etc. around.

I'm a big fan of her music.... I think she's one of the most UNIQUE writer/singers ever ! I spoke to her last time she was through Nashville, maybe 6 months ago....

Fleetwood Mac was already making the change from straight blues to the more harmony vocal type sound when I was in the band. In fact, I think I helped them do that.. Thanks for your question !

Hi Bob! Thanks so much for doing this Q&A! I love your new CD, and I especially love your work with Fleetwood Mac. Do you have any favorite song or album from your Mac days? Also, have you ever considered teaming up with any of the old Mac members for an album or some other project? You and Christine together wrote some of the best songs Fleetwood Mac has ever had, and you and Bob Weston complemented each other on the guitar beautifully.

Thanks a lot! (Jim, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, USA)

I'm so glad you like my new CD! It means everything to an artist to get that kind of feedback, to know you've "connected"!

My favorite song that I wrote from the old days is "Hypnotized". It had the "magic". My favorite song from before me is "Oh Well" and "Black Magic Woman", Pete Greens tunes. My favorite Christine song from the old days is probably "Jumping At Shadows" and " Come A Little Bit Closer" (cause I LOVE "overproductions"! ;-).

Thanks for your compliments about me and Christine! I don't see us ever working together again....they dislike me because I sued them, and I dislike Mick John and Chris, on that level, because I felt they "blew me off" and treated me as a non-entity, "less-than", and didn't try to work things out when they could have. So it's all a matter of attitude. Now were like one big DYSFUNCTIONAL family ! ;-) Bob Weston and I are still good friends, and I agree; I love Bob's guitar playing !

-----

Need any other proof, or are ready to concede snoot isn't pulling a bunch smoke and mirror claims here?

PS. We've gotta stop meeting in this way! :laugh: Oh, and "your move" -- if you insist.

[SteveMacD]

And of course, Grateful Dead dwarf Fleetwood Mac in raw "power," ROTFL! Have you ever compared their record sales, let alone impact on "pop culture"? Give me a break.
Okay, then. Weak sales=not worthy of induction. Thanks for proving the Hall's point with Fleetwood Mac. Garcia was worth $250+million when he died. Do you think he made that through lousy sales and neckties?

That's bull. They didn't "argue" or push at all. They kept the limelight all for themselves. But keep dreaming if that's your preference.
There's no proof, though. And, other bands have had similar issues.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

More exaggerations. The Dead have not outdrawn FM since the Buckingham-Nicks era. There have been attendance lulls for both band over the years, often due to changing or MIA personnel. Counter-culture doesn't equate to "popular culture", nor record sales. The Dead are a big act, but to argue they leave the Mac bested by any type of sales or attendance measuring sticks is like whistling in the dark. Want to compare official sales charts? :D
Where did I say they outdrew Fleetwood Mac? I said they were a pretty consistent draw for nearly thirty years. From 1965 until Garcia's death, the band toured every year, except 1975, and they still managed four shows that year. At the time of their induction, they were one of the top drawing acts for several years. Fleetwood Mac does not have anything like the Deadheads. There are the Stevie fans, and DavidMn, but they're a rarity. Plus, look at bands like Phish, Dave Matthews Band, and EVEN PETER GREEN that list the Dead as inluences. People tend to list Peter Green or Stevie Nicks as influences, but rarely any of the others. And, when they were inducted, they had been out of a relative state of current obscurity for all of eight months. The Dead were in a MUCH better place to negotiate their induction. (The best part is the Hall met Jerry's demands, and he still skipped the ceremony.)

Before you were arguing no hits=no dice.
Yes, as it relates to Fleetwood Mac's induction.

So how many ways should we dice this thing up? While neither of us can say for certain what makes up the so called criteria, or more importantly what goes on behind the scenes, one thing is for certain: there are a HELLUVA lot of musicians in there that couldn't measure up to Welch's navel, let alone musical heights and accomplishments. You just named two imo.
But, Welch didn't have the sustained impact on culture that those bands had. I'd bet my life savings that more young musicians will cite the Sex Pistols or Velvet Underground as influences than Bob Welch. That's not a knock on Bob, BTW. That's just dumb luck.

How many times do I have to state this! Welch was stiffed because Chris and Mick were miffed. Period.
And your proof? Because here's how I see it: Other bands have had key members excluded by the Hall, and John McVie is STILL miffed at Danny Kirwan, yet Danny was still included.

Danny's inclusion had everything to do with his impact on the Mac. If it was "justified" (and sanctified in your eyes) by his participation with PGFM, so be it.
His inclusion was along the lines of Joe Negroni of Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers. Yeah, he was in an influential band, but he wasn't the star, and would have been completely forgotten if it hadn't been for Frankie Lymon. But, yeah, I suppose he had an impact on Frakie Lymon and the Teenagers.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

Dumb argument, but go on and buy into it. You'll be making the Big 5 happy. When someone - anyone - can cherry pick Bob Welch out of the FM equation, the game is up. Checkmate. :rolleyes:
Hey, I'm just explaining the logic. I never said I approved. Reality can be a real sumbitch sometimes.

[SteveMacD]

Need any other proof, or are ready to concede snoot isn't pulling a bunch smoke and mirror claims here?
It doesn't really prove anything, though. It's all speculation on Bob's part, which was clouded by his anger at the band at that time. I wanna know what was said to who before I judge the situation.

[snoot]

Well you present your case (and not poorly either), and I present mine. We'll have to agree to disagree then.

The two key points where we disagree the most are over who was behind the stiffing of Bob, and a full appreciation of that which Danny brought to Fleetwood Mac. I call that the unwritten story that those "smarter than thou" music critics will never get, with their ceaseless and blind obsession towards Peter at the expense of all else. Now of course I never knew just "star power" (ergo, the "stars" of a band) justifies inclusion at HOF. Novel concept they got going there, if nothing else. Maybe that's but another reason that Hall is so widely derided.

Now of course if that should really be the case (hmmm?), thank God Jerry pushed harder for his secondary, you know, non-Weir mates. Who knew how easy they might have been looked over, and expended for not measuring up. What a guy! Man, the tricks that guy can pull! And by extension (and not a mystery to me), what pathetic pushovers that makes Mick & the Gang! What can you say? Dead Power, never underestimate it!

And yes, reality - "as framed" - can be a real sumbitch sometimes, especially in all its glorious prisms and hues. Too bad too. ;)

Ciao

[snoot]

It doesn't really prove anything, though. It's all speculation on Bob's part, which was clouded by his anger at the band at that time. I wanna know what was said to who before I judge the situation.

Uh, OK. And yeah, what would HE know about it all?!! LOL

Suck it up Bob! :thumbsup: You'z got to get wid da program man!

[snoot]

Blood On The Floor is one of my all-time favorite Fleetwood Mac songs, and without question my favorite contribution from Jeremy to the band.

The more you listen to it, the more it grows on you, that's for sure. You got to give it a chance after the long drawl vocal inflection at the beginning. Jeremy sure belts that one out. It's what makes the song.

[doodyhead]

cute album

I saw them on the Kiln House Tour at Central Parks Wohlman Skating Rink
Shaeffer summer series
most of audience made up of drunk greasers

Spencer was the show

Mission Bell and Station Man were great live

next week Jeremy jumped ship

[snoot]

"Cute album"? We want more than that. You know, Great, Good, OK, Bad. Don't cheat. No cutting corners!

JS was always a character on the stage. Great movements, like on Blue Suede Shoes. :thumbsup:

The shows on that circuit were noted for the often fever-pitched "Where's Peter?" mantra. All the peeps got was Christine in his place! Some thought Jeremy was Peter, while others were ready to pull their hair out. I remember one guy cursing up a storm. Ha ha ha

It didn't help them doing next to none of the old Green stuff during that touring stint. Oh well.

TMATTYD was good once they got into it. Wasn't Purple Dancer in the set? I remember I'd Rather Go Blind clearly, Need Religion too. Most of its just a haze now. Like so much else.

Drunken greasers on east side, bikers and surfers on the west, most higher than kites :D wOOt

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/starz75/Images/FMSF70.png

[SteveMacD]

"Cute album"? We want more than that. You know, Great, Good, OK, Bad. Don't cheat. No cutting corners!

JS was always a character on the stage. Great movements, like on Blue Suede Shoes. :thumbsup:

The shows on that circuit were noted for the often fever-pitched "Where's Peter?" mantra. All the peeps got was Christine in his place! Some thought Jeremy was Peter, while others were ready to pull their hair out. I remember one guy cursing up a storm. Ha ha ha

It didn't help them doing next to none of the old Green stuff during that touring stint. Oh well.

TMATTYD was good once they got into it. Wasn't Purple Dancer in the set? I remember I'd Rather Go Blind clearly, Need Religion too. Most of its just a haze now. Like so much else.

Drunken greasers on east side, bikers and surfers on the west, most higher than kites :D wOOt

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/starz75/Images/FMSF70.png

That may be the coolest live shot I've ever seen!

[snoot]

That may be the coolest live shot I've ever seen!

At the Fillmore in SF :p

[slipkid]

At the Fillmore in SF :p

Wow snoot, that's a great picture! So that's the last concert with Spencer playing with FM. I've seen the pic of Spencer leaving the plane in L.A., which is officially the last picture of him before he joined CoG. You wouldn't happen to have any pics from the Peter Green portion of the tour? There is a lot of myth surrounding that part of the tour. I know there's a boot around with Green from that tour playing rhythm guitar on a standard Kiln House era set. What I want to know is if they really had shows that were just a Black Magic Woman jam. This is where supposedly Kirwan tried to brain Green with a beer bottle. I want the myth proved, or debunked.

[doodyhead]

I was not there at the Fillmore East. My childhood friend was. He claimed that after four or so songs where Peter just played second guitar, He stepped up and turned up the volume and did not stop playing for a few hours. As was the custom, people left at the end of the show as dawn broke. He claimed it was unbeliveably good. We were both at The Band Of Gypsies Concert so I gave him credence on this. The only existing bootleg is a distorted 20 minutes or so of jamming. I am sure it was recorded but is in someone's private stock like Eric Clapton's tour on Hitler's Train.

doodyhead

as I said. I did not see it but had to listen to the story for weeks

[snoot]

Wow snoot, that's a great picture! So that's the last concert with Spencer playing with FM.

Actually it's from the summer of 1970, not long after Kiln House was recorded, and not the winter tour you're thinking of which came early in the following year. I recall a lot of new stuff was introduced, as much of it was unfamiliar to me -- I don't think the album had even made it to the stores shelves yet. Danny anchored everything nicely with his guitar, supplemented by Christy on the keyboards. Mick and John were rock solid as usual. Jeremy, as always, was the most dynamic on stage, plus the most comfortable in front of the mic. He could also turn to those familiar Elmore James and Elvis style ditties as augments. Outside of showcasing their new material, they also did a handful of blues numbers, some of which got pretty spirited. Jeremy, Danny & Christy as a front line really could put on a good show.

Jump forward a half year or so, with Peter back in the fold. My recollection - largely diminished now - was that it basically amounted to a lot of loose knit riffing based around new or familiar themes - some Kiln House stuff, I'd Rather Go Blind was still in there, an instrumental rip of Oh Well near the end IIRC, plus a few others now lost to me. Some psychedelic and blues numbers were thrown in for good measure. I suspect a portion of the jam material may have been tapped from the instrumental preps Green and Kirwan had been working on the previous year but never recorded. The really extended jamming I believe came later on during that tour. That was more a precursor of sorts to that first solo project PG cranked out later in the year. Danny was doing most of the lead stuff early on, Peter backing him as best he could on the KH material with which he was still unfamiliar. It was patch job, little more!

I don't believe any concert set was cast in stone though, not once Green replaced Spencer. Unfortunately I don't think things worked out so well as time went on. From what I gather, the band eventually got bored, basically just started going through the motions. There's no way they could have been happy with their situation in general, especially losing Jeremy like they did, or with Peter's return under those circumstances, to include all that endless, cosmic riffing. There was a lot of pointless meandering in those jams by that late date, I don't know what else to say, it was weird. Maybe it would have been more rewarding depending on how stoned you were!

Then again, maybe some nights it was better than others, depending on what went down. The touring leg involving PG lasted for almost 6 weeks. That's a lot of time for things to evolve - or devolve. :cool: By the time it was over Bob Welch was on the scene, just in time to kick off the European summer tour.

[snoot]

I was not there at the Fillmore East. My childhood friend was. He claimed that after four or so songs where Peter just played second guitar, He stepped up and turned up the volume and did not stop playing for a few hours.

That pic is of the Fillmore West in SF in 1970, sans Green of course. The Fillmore East concert in NYC to which you refer occured early in '71, by which time Peter was back in the fold as a temp. That would have been fairly early on as a replacement to boot, not but a week or 10 days after Jeremy disappeared. Not sure what to say, but anything was possible, especially given Peter - and the band's - state at the time.

as I said. I did not see it but had to listen to the story for weeks

Can't tell if this was more pain, or pleasure! :D

[SteveMacD]

That was more a precursor of sorts to that first solo project PG cranked out later in the year.

I think End Of The Game was already out by the time the Kiln House tour began (with Jeremy). I have a boot from early on that tour that has a backstage interview with Mick, and he talks about Peter's album.

[snoot]

I think End Of The Game was already out by the time the Kiln House tour began (with Jeremy). I have a boot from early on that tour that has a backstage interview with Mick, and he talks about Peter's album.

Yes I think you've got something there, come to think of it. Correction: All that endless cosmic jamming would have been more in line with - call it a taste of, not precursor of - that solo project he just cranked out.

Thanks for keeping me straight on that. ;)

[snoot]

I know there's a boot around with Green from that tour playing rhythm guitar on a standard Kiln House era set.

Is there by chance a copy or link of that anywhere around here? I would love to give that one a listen, for old time's sake if nothing else.

There is a lot of myth surrounding that part of the tour.

I think much of it is based on kernels of the truth, but no doubt distorted over time. Like so many other things. Keep in mind, that was a six week tour Green participated in, so all kinds of things could have occurred over its course. I don't think we'll ever know how much myth supersedes fact in the equation.

As for the possible extended Black Magic Woman jams, anything is possible, especially on any given night. There was definitely an extra emphasis placed on jamming towards the end of the tour. For all we know, Peter may well have gotten bored with the Kiln House stuff - or just wanted to emulate what he did on that solo project he recently completed. After all, that's where his heart was at that time. But my suspicion is that this may be blown up a little, if it points to an entire concert based on riffing around one ditty.

The biggest problem, when looking back and trying to reconstruct events, is everything gets so damn cloudy. And I wasn't even stoned at the time! [Liquored up a bit perhaps, but definitely not stoned!] :p

[slipkid]

I think End Of The Game was already out by the time the Kiln House tour began (with Jeremy). I have a boot from early on that tour that has a backstage interview with Mick, and he talks about Peter's album.

Bottoms Up is my favorite track. Green is having a conversation with his guitar.

[doodyhead]

I was referring to Fillmore East at end of PG temp tour of duty that Peter played into the night.

I did not visit the left coast until five years ago, nice place to visit

I did see Fleetwood Mac the last time they were in NY with Jeremy Spencer

as for Kiln House:
Kiln House

I bought this Album when it was first released in US. My first FM album was Then Play On, I wemt back and bought English Rose /dog and dustbin re release as well as a double bundled FM in Chicago. These were released by Mike Vernon to capitalize on the belated press that FM got justt as PG was bolting. I must admit that I was playing catchup as i bought Mayall with Clapton/ and A Hard Road on the same day in 1969. While seeing Clapton/ Page/ Beck/ Hendrix/ Lee/ Bloomfield/ BB King/ Albet King/ freddie King/ Simmonds/ H Mandell/ Garcia/ Winter/ Trower/ Sumlin/ Kreiger/ West(he was a brooklyn local) / Jourma/ Cippolina/ Betts/ Allman/.Stills/ Young/ Townsend/ Richard hompson/ Kalb/ Bishop/ Cropper/ Garcia/ Santana...(did I miss anyone) I had never seen Peter Green live except hearing him once while hanging out at the fillmore east stage entrance on 2/11/70 (for the Greatful Dead Show with Duane Dickey, Peter and Danny).
I thought at the time (just from listening to the madge sessions on then play on that they were a better 1- 2 punch than the allman/betts or garcia/ratdog, bloomfield/bishop, Quicksilver, savoy Brown,or the two from moby grape.

Sooo ...when Kiln House came out I knew that Green was gone but I thought that Danny had such a great tone out of his Goldtop that he could shine on his own. When I hear the Album I was unprepared for what it played like. I had heard Mission Bell on the radio, Hi Ho Silver and Buddy Holly was, well, Buddy Holley.

Nowhere on the previos FM recordings did old school (I am dating myself here) rock and roll appear.

This is the rock this one gets better with age. Spencer has impeccable timing
Station Man we hear in short bursts Dannys guitar tone, nice tune, not very edgy though
Blood On The Foor Spencer at his satirical best
Hi Ho Silver nice rocker good cover
Jewel Eyed Judy Pop here we go (this is for you snoot)
Buddys Song Jeremy got this down good
Earl Gray simmered in the pot too long, but fortells of Dragonfly to come( I also think Dragonfly is Danny's erie best
One Together space filler, nice song
Tell Me All The Things That You Do What I was expecting when I Bought the Album to begin with
Mission Bell Nice Cover, strange ending track

thirtyeight? years later the album stands up as a contiguous whole, is as an album higher on the list than many FM releases with better press

[stubbie7]

Doodyhead:

Like you, my first album by FM was Then Play On. I had to work backwards as well as forwards to catch up. Ended up getting the double release called Black Magic Woman that was nothing more than their first two albums.

I remember, initially, being disappointed with Kiln House. However, after a friend told me that was his favorite FM album I listened closer and it realized it was just different, that is what was throwing me off. As soon as I let the album itself do the talking (instead of my expectations) it grew on me.

Love that album now. Still have my vinyl but have the cd as well.

For my money, the best song on the album is TMATTYD. Danny's riff is just captivating. I think my favorite Jeremy song is Blood on the Floor. By the time I was listening to this album I was into Poco and Pure Prairie League (and many other "hippie/country" bands) so I actually began to appreciate this song as a well written tongue-in-cheek country and western bit of satire. I think it is a great song.

I think what turned me off initially was the Buddy Hollyness of it and now I even get that.

[snoot]

Bottoms Up is my favorite track. Green is having a conversation with his guitar.

Definitely has some amazing flourishes throughout, but damn if that isn't a lot of aimless rambling too. Throws me for a loop every time. Always wondered if he was high when he recorded it.

I'd be interested in other folks takes on Greenie's The End Of The Game.

[snoot]

as for Kiln House:

I bought this Album when it was first released in US. My first FM album was Then Play On, I wemt back and bought English Rose /dog and dustbin re release as well as a double bundled FM in Chicago. These were released by Mike Vernon to capitalize on the belated press that FM got justt as PG was bolting.

Ah now we're getting somewhere. It's true, they were trying to capitalize on the belated press that FM got due to Green's early trail-blaze and those UK FM hits. But it should be remembered, most of the increasing acceptance of FM stateside early on came from Kiln House and beyond. Kirwan, Welch and McVie's tunes had as much to do with that than anything else. Only the very old guard of fans were into "Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac" at that point (and yet you could always find a respectable handful of them at every concert setting, some quite shocked at Green's omission). You also cannot overlook the FM "name" he basically established earlier -- that was definitely part of bigger picture.

It was considerably different on the European side. The British in particular, but also the Germans, Dutch and Scandinavians, had a harder time letting go of the blues centered FM. Many of them took the loss of Green as a loss of Fleetwood Mac, since they were raised on its blues-rock core from the get-go. Any way you look at it, the USA and Europe were different playing fields altogether. In Europe, PGFM ruled, wherein America, they largely went unnoticed -- especially when compared to other big name British acts of the day.

As time went on of course, and more peeps in the States came to discover FM, it was inevitable some of the old buzz surrounding Green and the early "three guitar front" would come to more people's attention. That's why so many on this side went backwards to discover the Mac's blues core.

Sooo ...when Kiln House came out I knew that Green was gone but I thought that Danny had such a great tone out of his Goldtop that he could shine on his own. When I hear the Album I was unprepared for what it played like. I had heard Mission Bell on the radio, Hi Ho Silver and Buddy Holly was, well, Buddy Holley.

Nowhere on the previos FM recordings did old school (I am dating myself here) rock and roll appear.

Well stated. Mirrors my own feelings at the time, 'cept I had a taste of what might be coming from the live setting(s) I witnessed. Still wasn't sure just how retro it would go.

This is the rock this one gets better with age. Spencer has impeccable timing
Station Man we hear in short bursts Dannys guitar tone, nice tune, not very edgy though
Blood On The Foor Spencer at his satirical best
Hi Ho Silver nice rocker good cover
Jewel Eyed Judy Pop here we go (this is for you snoot)
Buddys Song Jeremy got this down good
Earl Gray simmered in the pot too long, but fortells of Dragonfly to come( I also think Dragonfly is Danny's erie best
One Together space filler, nice song
Tell Me All The Things That You Do What I was expecting when I Bought the Album to begin with
Mission Bell Nice Cover, strange ending track

I'm impressed with your takes, much better than some of your "concessionary" MTM ones imo. :p

thirtyeight? years later the album stands up as a contiguous whole, is as an album higher on the list than many FM releases with better press.

On the button again (but please, don't bring up all those years now :shocked: ouch). If only more of those post-75ers would give it a spin! They have no idea what a pleasant surprise lies in store.

PS. Some nice guitarmeisters notched under your "live" belt there. Even Alvin Lee in the mix!

EDIT PS. Jewel Eyed Judy rulez! It's where Mac meet the Beatles V. :laugh: Never forget that.

[SteveMacD]

Nowhere on the previos FM recordings did old school (I am dating myself here) rock and roll appear.
Well, and this is borderline minutia, there was the b-side to Man Of The World, called Somebody’s Gonna Get Their Head Kicked In Tonight. Also, there was the self-titled Jeremy Spencer solo album, which is essentially a Fleetwood Mac album (the backing band is Mick, John, and Danny, with Peter making a cameo). So it was there, but it's definitely obscure reference stuff.

[doodyhead]

i must confess that i did not hear man of the world or the b side until years later

Spencers solo album however i did

[dino]

Is there by chance a copy or link of that anywhere around here? I would love to give that one a listen, for old time's sake if nothing else.

There is a lot of myth surrounding that part of the tour.

I think much of it is based on kernels of the truth, but no doubt distorted over time. Like so many other things. Keep in mind, that was a six week tour Green participated in, so all kinds of things could have occurred over its course. I don't think we'll ever know how much myth supersedes fact in the equation.

As for the possible extended Black Magic Woman jams, anything is possible, especially on any given night. There was definitely an extra emphasis placed on jamming towards the end of the tour. For all we know, Peter may well have gotten bored with the Kiln House stuff - or just wanted to emulate what he did on that solo project he recently completed. After all, that's where his heart was at that time. But my suspicion is that this may be blown up a little, if it points to an entire concert based on riffing around one ditty.

The biggest problem, when looking back and trying to reconstruct events, is everything gets so damn cloudy. And I wasn't even stoned at the time! [Liquored up a bit perhaps, but definitely not stoned!] :p

Thanks to all of you for sharing your admittedly hazy but exciting memories
to us who weren't around :nod:.
There's 3 recordings of Peter depping on the spring tour:
February 19, 1971 SWING AUDITORIUM, SAN BERNADINO, CA
February 26, 1971 FILLMORE EAST, NEW YORK
March 27, 1971 ROCK PILE, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK

Someone is playing rhythm guitar on the Swing tape, and it has to be Peter,
though you can't really tell. He plays very much a supporting role.
The Fillmore tape has a few Kiln House numbers and 2 20+ minutes jams,
where both Peter and Danny cuts loose. Sound quality sucks horribly, though!
The rock pile is basically 2 extended instrumental jams, a bit like "Madge".

[snoot]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your admittedly hazy but exciting memories
to us who weren't around :nod:."

Hazy is right. I'm lucky to have any brains cells left at this point. :laugh:

Someone is playing rhythm guitar on the Swing tape, and it has to be Peter, though you can't really tell. He plays very much a supporting role.

That's Peter, only an unusually subdued version of the PG we all know.

The Fillmore tape has a few Kiln House numbers and 2 20+ minutes jams, where both Peter and Danny cuts loose. Sound quality sucks horribly, though! The rock pile is basically 2 extended instrumental jams, a bit like "Madge".

That's most likely Peter again, only with the robes cast. Never got that far east though.

I can only speak for two shows, and they were considerably different. The Swing was a small concert hall in ol' San Berdoo (San Bernardino) at the old Orange Show Fairgrounds. Been to it many times. It was a hitching post and stage stop for acts rolling up and down California, mostly between SF and LA (Anaheim, Long Beach, San Diego). Many stopped in there only to test out their stuff, make adjustments or set changes, etc. But most acts bypassed the auditorium altogether since it was kind of frayed and beat up, had benches for seating, and the acoustics weren't the greatest. But one thing it always had going for it was that it was always packed to the gills, and the very enthusiastic "inland empire" crowds always let the performers know where they stood! :D

Back to Mac. When Spencer cut out, Peter got on a plane from England to help out, bringing his old pal Nigel Watson. The band was in a state of panic, having just cancelled their gig at the Whiskey in L.A. Before the week was out, they all converged at the Swing. It was a multiple billing IIRC, but what really stood out was the total calamity of the show. QMS preceded Mac on stage. They were almost as big a wreck as FM at that time, with two of their guitarists "battling" for turf right there on the stage. What a hoot! At one point Valente even challenged the crowd, not sure if he flipped everyone off but there was all kinds of hissing and booing and plenty of fingers aimed his way. :p Now remember things were a lot different back then, and that kind of concert scene was not unheard of in the supercharged days of psychedelia. Quicksilver was a jam band so the peeps wanted to hear more of Johnny's (Cipollina) guitar, but ****in' Dino the dinosaur wouldn't have it (too jealous). The whole thing was pretty awful.

A bit later the Mac were up. Peter tried to give Danny support but could do little more than hang in the shadows since a lot of what they were doing was still unfamiliar to him (Kiln House numbers). He only stepped up and cut loose on the extended stuff. Danny tried to compensate but pushing things as far as he could. A lot of pedal work, some really nice grooves in there too, but it was quite an effort. It was also intermittent and definitely less than stellar, as the band looked shellshocked more than anything else, no doubt due to Jeremy's sudden exit. John was the only one who appeared "normal," Mick looked like he was on uppers - for all I know he hadn't slept for days. Christie I can barely recall, being off to one side, but her singing didn't seem quite up to par. Watson may have been playing bongos, but I can't even remember it. Overall, only a so-so performance but understandable considering what had just occurred.

The other event I can speak for in that tour Peter was much more in the mix, but once again things were stilted. There seemed like there was very little magic between him and Danny at that point, who at times looked bored (unenthused would be an understatement; the other members weren't far behind). Sad but there appeared to be a touch of tension between them, with no smiles or attempts to ramp things up to the max. The jamming was now much more to the forefront, with Peter co-anchoring the point. It was erratic at best, alternating between cool flashes of the old Mac with familiar riffs, and a bunch of abstract meandering and offbeat phrasing. Oh Well was still being done instrumentally IIRC, Black Magic Woman was in the mix at some point too. Both were extended jams but not like legend has them, going on for an hour or more. May still have occurred at a later point though, who knows.

I don't think Danny or the other band members were happy with the turn of events though, not losing Pete for good the previous year, then Jeremy's erratic plug-pull on the west coast, then Pete coming back with "terms" which only got more stringent as time went on. They were doing less and less KH material (which they were supposed to be promoting for sales!) that PG never really got into, and since he refused to sing his old stuff, it left them kind of straight-jacketed. Knowing Peter wasn't going to be there in their future, I think Danny started resenting him for wanting to do things "his way" at that point (and thus perhaps the flying bottle incident). Much of the jamming was improv and looseknit, at times poorly structured with riffs not always familiar to the audience. Then they'd cut into something old and cook a bit, only to soon morph elsewhere. Green was off on his own groove at that point, and my feeling was that the band couldn't wait for that tour to end so they could get off that bus once and for all.

[snoot]

I thought at the time (just from listening to the madge sessions on then play on that they were a better 1- 2 punch than the allman/betts or garcia/ratdog, bloomfield/bishop, Quicksilver, savoy Brown,or the two from moby grape.

Some still don't get the full impact of just how good a team they were, particularly on the DK side of the equation. Or is it that too many get led by the chain of all those smarter than thou critics?

Ah and I overlooked your brooklyn lad from earlier, Pappalardi's boy, Leslie West! Mississippi Queen still sees radio time even out west. ;)

For my money, the best song on the album is TMATTYD. Danny's riff is just captivating. I think my favorite Jeremy song is Blood on the Floor. By the time I was listening to this album I was into Poco and Pure Prairie League (and many other "hippie/country" bands) so I actually began to appreciate this song as a well written tongue-in-cheek country and western bit of satire. I think it is a great song.

In the back of my mind I still often think of it as little more than a filler piece (from early impressions), and that tends to stick for some odd reason. But every time I sit down and give it a listen, damn if I don't rediscover what a crafty knock off it is, sung to full effect.

I think what turned me off initially was the Buddy Hollyness of it and now I even get that.

A little Holly, Elvis, Perkins, Lewis, Haley and Owens all rolled up into one! Call it a revisit (and nod) to rockabilly. :nod:

[chiliD]

A little Holly, Elvis, Perkins, Lewis, Haley and Owens all rolled up into one! Call it a revisit (and nod) to rockabilly. :nod:

I'm really surprised that Fleetwood Mac didn't capitalize on some of that Jeremy Spencer rockabilly stuff when Billy Burnette was in the band...that would've been right up his alley.

With Rick Vito & Billy Burnette, they were very close to ressurrecting the Green/Spencer combo. I think that's what appealed to me about that '87-90 lineup; they pretty much could cover the entire Fleetwood Mac history, but, for some reason that escapes me :shrug: they never really took advantage of that (they did on the "Green" side with Vito, but not the "Spencer" side with Burnette).

[snoot]

I'm really surprised that Fleetwood Mac didn't capitalize on some of that Jeremy Spencer rockabilly stuff when Billy Burnette was in the band...that would've been right up his alley.)

You bring up a great point. That would have been right down his pike indeed. After seeing what Burnette does for JC Fogerty on the touring scene, I couldn't agree more. Shame Fogerty didn't let Billy do even more! [But Fogerty is definitely alpha male, and hard to top on either the stage or in the studio]

With Rick Vito & Billy Burnette, they were very close to ressurrecting the Green/Spencer combo. I think that's what appealed to me about that '87-90 lineup; they pretty much could cover the entire Fleetwood Mac history, but, for some reason that escapes me :shrug: they never really took advantage of that (they did on the "Green" side with Vito, but not the "Spencer" side with Burnette).

Lost in the Mac's ongoing identity shuffle, trying to cover the Buckingham deficit, while attempting to find a footing and platform all their own. Both are first class guitarists, that goes without saying. I think the only reason they're dismissed as lightly as they are in the larger Mac equation is that they surfaced in the shadow of Lindsey, and all that fame and glory that came before. They weren't really prolific songwriters either, especially Vito, so that didn't help. But I think you're onto something with the Green/Spencer combo revisit, as rockabilly is always cool, especially when graced with a more modern, updated twist.

[SteveMacD]

They weren't really prolific songwriters either, especially Vito, so that didn't help.
Actually, both were prolific writers. They had good songs that were left off the album because band decided to focus on Christine and Stevie. Billy has had his songs recorded by Ray Charles and Levon Helm, and Rick had a song recorded by McGuinn-Clark-Hillman.

Their careers should definitely NOT be judged by their time in Fleetwood Mac.

[snoot]

Actually, both were prolific writers. They had good songs that were left off the album because band decided to focus on Christine and Stevie.

Remember what I mentioned before: Lost in the Mac's ongoing identity shuffle, trying to cover the Buckingham deficit, while attempting to find a footing and platform all their own. Shame they were circumvented in that way, with the focus targeted more on maintaining the status quo.

Beyond Lindsey's long shadow, I don't think it helped coming aboard in the wake of Tango of all things. Wonder if they knew or fully appreciated what they were getting into, especially Rick? As for stepping up, I'm curious what your opinion is of Behind The Mask, and more importantly, their specific contributions. Sad to say, but by that point the Mac had largely lost me, so I may not be the best judge.

Their careers should definitely NOT be judged by their time in Fleetwood Mac.

True. Fortunately both are held in the highest regards in music circles, even if they were somewhat lost in the shuffle during their tenures with the band. Membership in FM is still a good citation to have on your "resume" though, even if it comes late (Dave Mason notwithstanding?).

[slipkid]

Remember what I mentioned before: Lost in the Mac's ongoing identity shuffle, trying to cover the Buckingham deficit, while attempting to find a footing and platform all their own. Shame they were circumvented in that way, with the focus targeted more on maintaining the status quo.

Beyond Lindsey's long shadow, I don't think it helped coming aboard in the wake of Tango of all things. Wonder if they knew or fully appreciated what they were getting into, especially Rick? As for stepping up, I'm curious what your opinion is of Behind The Mask, and more importantly, their specific contributions. Sad to say, but by that point the Mac had largely lost me, so I may not be the best judge.

Their careers should definitely NOT be judged by their time in Fleetwood Mac.

True. Fortunately both are held in the highest regards in music circles, even if they were somewhat lost in the shuffle during their tenures with the band. Membership in FM is still a good citation to have on your "resume" though, even if it comes late (Dave Mason notwithstanding?).



Rick Vito from Philadelphia (Phillies WS champs!), saw FM with Peter Green in late '68 in their one time stop for two nights at the Electric Factory. Vito was worthy of the throne when he was hired after LB's leave. (he is around Kirwan's age BTW) Billy Burnette's addition was a little weird to me at the time. Unless Mick wanted to bring back the Green/Spencer or Kirwan vibe, yet Burnette didn't take??? You don't need two guitarists to replace Buckingham. Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.

[SteveMacD]

As for stepping up, I'm curious what your opinion is of Behind The Mask, and more importantly, their specific contributions. Sad to say, but by that point the Mac had largely lost me, so I may not be the best judge.
Well, my favorites from that album are In The Back Of My Mind, When The Sun Goes Down, and Do You Know, and I think Rick Vito's solo on Save Me may be the best post-Green solo on Mac album.

Vito was worthy of the throne when he was hired after LB's leave. (he is around Kirwan's age BTW) Billy Burnette's addition was a little weird to me at the time. Unless Mick wanted to bring back the Green/Spencer or Kirwan vibe, yet Burnette didn't take??? You don't need two guitarists to replace Buckingham. Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.
Billy was an obvious choice because he knew the others pretty well. Actually, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour even if Lindsey had stayed. He had played in Mick's band, Christine's band, and recorded an unreleased song with Stevie Nicks. Hell, he even backed Lindsey on Saturday Night Live! Also, from a distance, they do somewhat resemble each other. I doubt it was coincide that Billy played a white Les Paul Custom on that tour or that he wore the same type of jacket and black button-down that had become Lindsey's signature.

[snoot]

Rick Vito from Philadelphia (Phillies WS champs!), saw FM with Peter Green in late '68 in their one time stop for two nights at the Electric Factory. Vito was worthy of the throne when he was hired after LB's leave. (he is around Kirwan's age BTW) Billy Burnette's addition was a little weird to me at the time. Unless Mick wanted to bring back the Green/Spencer or Kirwan vibe, yet Burnette didn't take??? You don't need two guitarists to replace Buckingham. Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.

After all the time he spent in the company of folks like Mayall, Browne, Prine and Silverbullet (Seger), plus doing sessions work for damn near half the industry, it was hard for me to think of Vito as anything but a hired gun (ergo, temp) for FM. To my knowledge, he hadn't released a thing of his own prior to his time with Mac. Considering how busy he was contributing to the projects of others, this should come as no surprise. Burnette as we know descends from a well-known family of musicians, but those early solo efforts of his weren't exactly ground-breaking. Therefore I figured he and Rick, in a two-heads-are-better-than-one scheme, were choosing to collaborate to help shift the musical direction of the band but once again, with an approving nod from the existing players.

Unfortunately FM as a collective wasn't really looking to start fresh or anew, but instead continue with the same successful (aka "commercially safe") formula. Silly me, having hopes that this promising new tandem might create a marked shift in the direction of the past (appropriately modernized), by bringing the multi axe attack once again to the fore. After all, what did they stand to lose after Tango? :cool: :p But after giving Behind The Mask a run-through early on, I could see this wasn't the case, and never really fleshed it out further. Perhaps I didn't give it its full due, but that project - with all its hope - didn't exactly leap out at me (not fully its fault either, nothing FM was grabbing my attention by that point). Fact was, I was disappointed with what >> could have been <<.

Who knows what was going on, at this point the band was in pop oblivion.

Sad to say, that was (is) my general take too. Not solely from the BTM release mind you, but as a continuance of things going back as far as Tusk really. Spottier hit and miss productions, with an ever widening plunge toward pop goes the weasel. Tusk would have been a tighter production if it had been condensed to a single album imo, even with all those little gems found on it. Would have made for a more impactful and consistent follow-up to FM '75 and Rumours that way. As great a guitarist as Lindsey is, at times I think he could have broadened the FM sound more by bringing in a second gun for accents and additional counterpoint, especially as time went on. But if commercial sales are any gauge, that was far from needed -- plus he IS a magnificent axemeister as a solo hand, that's a given.

Could it be a case of Stevie overload at that point? Or just SOS POP FM in general?

Alas, I'm such a dinasour from the days of yore that I still long for that special instrumental offering(s) we used to get with nearly every FM project of the past. As noted earlier, not -ONE- since Buckingham took the helm AFAIK! Yikes.

Well, my favorites from that album are In The Back Of My Mind, When The Sun Goes Down, and Do You Know, and I think Rick Vito's solo on Save Me may be the best post-Green solo on Mac album.

Now I know it's hard to draw an exact line between banality and genius when we're speaking of pop music (Vinnie take note), but I might have to give this a second look. I'll tab your notes when I do. ;)

Billy was an obvious choice because he knew the others pretty well.

Maybe because he was also more malleable, you know, more of a no make waves team player?

What we needed was a Forgetaboutit Stevie! Pipe down Christy! STFU Mick! in your face change of direction at that point. Not more of this "Will you have some crumpets with your tea, Stevie? Oh, and how 'bout you Mick? Christy, my love?" Pfffft. Ha ha ha yeah, and pink elephants will fly.

TAKE BACK THE MAC! That's what we fossils from the past were shouting. [blush]

Actually, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour even if Lindsey had stayed.

Where did you hear that? Lindsey to spearhead a dual axe attack? Proof or FAIL. :D

[SteveMacD]

Could it be a case of Stevie overload at that point? Or just SOS POP FM in general?

Alas, I'm such a dinasour from the days of yore that I still long for that special instrumental offering(s) we used to get with nearly every FM project of the past. As noted earlier, not -ONE- since Buckingham took the helm AFAIK! Yikes.

Which is odd, as Buckingham Nicks has two instrumentals....

Billy was an obvious choice because he knew the others pretty well.

Maybe because he was also more malleable, you know, more of a no make waves team player?
Maybe a little. But, he was already showing that he was willing to be a team player and that he had the talent to be on the team. But he was not as malleable as Rick Vito. Both, and Bekka for that matter, were a little too passive about fighting for their vision. But then they were going into a situation with very difficult emotions amongst the band. Bob Welch got lucky in that he got three albums before any real expectations were put on his shoulders.

Actually, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour even if Lindsey had stayed.

Where did you hear that? Lindsey to spearhead a dual axe attack? Proof or FAIL. :D
About ten years ago, a very handsome man, now prone to indie rock, asked Billy out-right about it... (http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/billyburnette_qa2.htm)
Okay, a few more questions (though I bet Steve D. by now has already asked a couple of these). I vaguely recall reading somewhere that even if Lindsey hadn't left in 1987, you were probably going to be asked to at least be a backing guitarist/vocalist on the 1987 tour. Is that true? (Steve MacDougall, Columbus, Ohio, USA)

Yes, that is what Mick talked about.

[michelej1]

About ten years ago, a very handsome man, now prone to indie rock, asked Billy out-right about it... (http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/billyburnette_qa2.htm)

Yes, I remember an interview where Christine said that Lindsey had already been planning to have more guitarists on the road with them (a scaled down vision of the "guitar army" he eventually used for his solo tour), so that they could get a fuller sound on stage.

Michele

[snoot]

Bob Welch got lucky in that he got three albums before any real expectations were put on his shoulders.

All the more reason I feel sorry for Danny in the greater FM equation. First to lose Peter like they (he) did when they were working so well together, then to take the reins with Jeremy, only to see him bail in the middle of a subsequent tour, then being thrust front and center, only to have Green return with his derailing "terms." With that whirlwind already dogging him, Kirwan was expected to carry Fleetwood Mac on his shoulders -- all at age 20. It's a marvel he did it as well as he did all things considered, to include losing the battle to his own growing substance abuses and insecurities, and in some ways you can hardly fault him for losing his own mind as time went on.

About ten years ago, a very handsome man, now prone to indie rock, asked Billy out-right about it...
"I vaguely recall reading somewhere that even if Lindsey hadn't left in 1987, you were probably going to be asked to at least be a backing guitarist/vocalist on the 1987 tour. Is that true?" (Handsome Steve MacDougall, Columbus, Ohio, USA)

CHECK

Yes, that is what Mick talked about. :eek:

MATE

Nothing worse than getting it directly from the source(s) -- pwnd x2! :thumbsup:

SO there it is! DISAPPOINTED BUT AGAIN! LINDSEY, HOW COULD YOUUUU!! :mad: :shocked: :mad: ARGGH

[snoot]

Yes, I remember an interview where Christine said that Lindsey had already been planning to have more guitarists on the road with them (a scaled down vision of the "guitar army" he eventually used for his solo tour), so that they could get a fuller sound on stage.

pwnd x3! :thumbsup:

Hurts so good to know :cool: you know?

Of course, it would only have mattered if Lucky Lindsey let the second fiddle have a bit of the spotlight, enough free reign to count in the affair. If so, that would have been a BLAST to see!

Leaving us to ask but again, WHY OH WHY NOT?

[Moz]

Here's my thoughts on Kiln House..

Simply Fantastic! - Jewel Eyed Judy :blob2: One of my favourite FM songs!
Great - Station Man, Earl Gray
Good - Tell Me All The Things You Do, Hi Ho Silver, One Together, Mission Bell
Okay - This is The Rock, Blood on the Floor, Buddy's Song

Kiln House has some of my favourite Danny tracks and my some of my least-favourite Jeremy tracks. I've found that my favourite JS songs were recorded with Peter - i.e. Shake Your Moneymaker - that's a riot and a half!

[snoot]

Here's my thoughts on Kiln House..

Simply Fantastic! - Jewel Eyed Judy :blob2: One of my favourite FM songs!
Great - Station Man, Earl Gray
Good - Tell Me All The Things You Do, Hi Ho Silver, One Together, Mission Bell
Okay - This is The Rock, Blood on the Floor, Buddy's Song

Kiln House has some of my favourite Danny tracks and my some of my least-favourite Jeremy tracks. I've found that my favourite JS songs were recorded with Peter - i.e. Shake Your Moneymaker - that's a riot and a half!

You're not too big on rockabilly, are you? :laugh: How about straight Buddy Holly?

Of course Mission Bell could have been covered by the Everly Brothers, so that doesn't really count. :p

[Moz]

Nah, haven't really been into rockabilly or Buddy Holly - but then again, I haven't heard much. When I was younger I didn't like the blues and now I do! My musical tastes are a-changin'..

[Hawkeye]

Wow, it's weird that I started this thread over four years ago and now that its been brought back up to the top I finally own it. Here's my thoughts on Kiln House:

Best of the Great: Tell Me All The Things You Do

Great: Station Man, Jeweled Eyed Judy

Very Good: Hi Ho Silver

Good: One Together, This is the Rock

OK: Earl Grey, Buddys Song

Bad: Blood on the Floor, Mission Bell

[snoot]

Nah, haven't really been into rockabilly or Buddy Holly - but then again, I haven't heard much. When I was younger I didn't like the blues and now I do! My musical tastes are a-changin'..

Get to it man. No time better than the present. If you don't Holly, you don't like rock n roll.

I'm always floored at how far my musical tastes have evolved over time. Things I used to boo hoo I now find not so horrific, in fact, not so bad at all. Even certain tracks I used to think of as "filler" or "fluff" on many albums I've come to see in a different light, especially as time goes on. Not all mind you, but still more than I would have expected. Not sure if it is "burnout" from overplay of the age-old favorites, or just revisiting at a later place and time when my musical tastes have matured more. Some things I used to dismiss almost curtly I now "get," all these years later. ;)

Wow, it's weird that I started this thread over four years ago and now that its been brought back up to the top I finally own it.

Good to see the OP bringing up the rear. How was your sleep during all those years? :thumbsup:

[Moz]

Get to it man.


Okay, what are some suggestions aside from good ol' Buddy?

[snoot]

Okay, what are some suggestions aside from good ol' Buddy?

Oh my gosh, too many to name. Any BEST OF or GH compilation should do. From The Original Masters (MCA, 1985), The Very Best Of Buddy Holly (MCA, 2004), or perhaps The Buddy Holly Collection (MCA, 1993). Any of those would be a great starter set, but of course there are other GH packages to be had beyond that.

Buddy is where it all began! (ok, along with Elvis, Lewis, Berry, Perkins, Haley, Orbison and the Everly Brothers). Never forget the trailblazers! ;)

[snoot]

Whatever you get, make sure it covers his biggest hits: That'll Be The Day, Peggy Sue, Oh Boy!, Everyday, Maybe Baby, I'm Gonna Love You Too, Rave On, Think It Over, Fool's Paradise, Early In The Morning, Heartbeat, Raining In My Heart and It Doesn't Matter Anymore.

PLUS these golden gems: Words Of Love, Learning The Game, It's So Easy, Wishing, Not Fade Away, Well...All Right, Crying Waiting Hoping, Reminiscing, True Love Ways, What To Do, Look At Me, Tell Me How, Blue Days Black Nights, Rock Around With Ollie Vee, Peggy Sue Got Married, Changing All Those Changes, Moondreams, Holly Hop, Bo Diddley, Brown Eyed Handsome Man and Love's Made A Fool Of You.

Now you're made in the shade. :thumbsup:

[slipkid]

Get to it man. No time better than the present. If you don't (like) Holly, you don't like rock n roll.


WOW! That's the truest statement you've ever posted. Buddy Holly took Sun record Elvis and made it better. The Crickets are the first modern rock band IMHO.

At the age of nine, I had a 2 LP MCA collection of Buddy Holly songs. I was hooked for life. I now have a 2CD collection of many of the great songs, but I'm a little miffed that it doesn't have the GREAT song "Dearest" that's featured on the "Juno" soundtrack. It's only available as an import.


BTW, I'm still waiting for your Grateful Dead response to my post on another thread :shrug:.

[Moz]

Ah, it feels good to find "new" songs (hey, I'm seventeen, any music pre-1960 is new to me)! Thanks for the recommendations. :wavey:

[snoot]

WOW! That's the truest statement you've ever posted.

What? :eek: What does THAT supposed to mean! :shocked:

Buddy Holly took Sun record Elvis and made it better. The Crickets are the first modern rock band IMHO.

It could be argued Bill Haley's band was the first true group, and Elvis the first true rocker (with Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry right on their heels), but I would say Buddy Holly was the foremost to capture the purest form of what we still readily identify today as "rock n roll". All of the above, along with Carl Perkins, had a distinct hand in the making of the genre, let's make no bones about that. There was also Little Richard parenthetically, but he was more R&B based. But from my vantage point, Holly was the purest.

At the age of nine, I had a 2 LP MCA collection of Buddy Holly songs. I was hooked for life. I now have a 2CD collection of many of the great songs, but I'm a little miffed that it doesn't have the GREAT song "Dearest" that's featured on the "Juno" soundtrack. It's only available as an import.

Great song. It's true, once you sample a good BH collection, you'll immediately know where so much of what we take for granted and groove to began, in better depth than ANY of the above mentioned artists. Call him the truest of the true! To think, all of his stuff was written and recorded within roughly a 3 year period! DAYUM

There's a reason Don McLean lamented Holly's death with his immortal American Pie.

Good to see you're so into Holly slipkid, and that you started so young. There's hope for you yet! ;)

BTW, I'm still waiting for your Grateful Dead response to my post on another thread :shrug:.

Alright, alright. I'll have to go revisit that thread. Now where is it? :p

[snoot]

Okay, what are some suggestions aside from good ol' Buddy?

I just noticed the words ASIDE FROM. Aye yea yea, senility must be catching up to me quicker than I knew! :o

Ok rockabilly in a nutshell: Carl Perkins, Bill Haley, Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Roy Orbison were some of the biggest acts that dipped their heels in and out of rockabilly early on, to varying degrees. The rockabilly scene was going pretty strong until the coming of the Beatles and the British Invasion. Ironically, the Beatles were BIG admirers of the genre. In fact, John Lennon recorded an album in 1975 called "Rock 'n' Roll" that contains a whole slew of rockabilly hits - the cover even shows him in full Gene Vincent leather! WOOT. Big guns of the size of Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page were also influenced by rockabilly musicians.

On the heels of the early artists cited above came acts like Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, and Rick Nelson.

More modern acts include Dave Edmunds, with or without his band band Rockpile. Queen touched on it with their Crazy Little Thing Called Love, the last rockabilly song to hit #1 on Billboard. The most commercially successful of the newer rockabilly artists would have to be Brian Setzer & The Stray Cats. There's also The Blasters led by Phil and Dave Alvin out of Downey, California. John Fogerty touches on it a bit here and there, like with Centerfield from 1985. Then there's rowdy Hank Williams, Jr. on the country side of things I suppose. There's others to boot alluding me at the moment, that's for sure.

Ah, it feels good to find "new" songs (hey, I'm seventeen, any music pre-1960 is new to me)! Thanks for the recommendations. :wavey:

DANG Moz, you're already made in the shade. Big ups so far mate. :thumbsup:

PS. Now go read those threads I mentioned earlier, in full. You'll only be that much wiser. :D

[jeremy spencer]

At the age of nine, I had a 2 LP MCA collection of Buddy Holly songs. I was hooked for life. I now have a 2CD collection of many of the great songs, but I'm a little miffed that it doesn't have the GREAT song "Dearest" that's featured on the "Juno" soundtrack. It's only available as an import.


BTW, I'm still waiting for your Grateful Dead response to my post on another thread :shrug:.[/QUOTE]


Yes, that song is one of my favourites of his, if not THE fave for me, as simple as it is. I bought it as a single while in art college in 1964 when it was titled 'Umm Yeah" and I wore it out. It had overdubs by Jimmy Gilmer's Fireballs, but nothing beats the acoustic version heard in 'Juno'. Beautiful; as are a lot of those he recorded in his NY apt just before he passed on.

[slipkid]

What? :eek: What does THAT supposed to mean! :shocked:


It's just that sometimes your "facts" err opinions I don't agree with. :p However, I agree with your assessment of Buddy Holly.


It could be argued Bill Haley's band was the first true group, and Elvis the first true rocker (with Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry right on their heels), but I would say Buddy Holly was the foremost to capture the purest form of what we still readily identify today as "rock n roll". All of the above, along with Carl Perkins, had a distinct hand in the making of the genre, let's make no bones about that. There was also Little Richard parenthetically, but he was more R&B based. But from my vantage point, Holly was the purest.

I think of Bill Haley's Comets as a rock-abilly band with horns. The Crickets were a drummer, a bass player, and a guitarist, IE a rock band. Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry along with Holly maybe my favorite artist(s) from this era so you won't get any arguments from me.






Great song. It's true, once you sample a good BH collection, you'll immediately know where so much of what we take for granted and groove to began, in better depth than ANY of the above mentioned artists. Call him the truest of the true! To think, all of his stuff was written and recorded within roughly a 3 year period! DAYUM

His influence on the British bands of the 60's and beyond is hard to quantify. Of course we all know of someone who was at his creative peak for three years until he left. At least in his case, he's still alive.


Good to see you're so into Holly slipkid, and that you started so young. There's hope for you yet! ;)

Alright, alright. I'll have to go revisit that thread. Now where is it? :p

To quote Peter Gabriel, "I know what I like, and I like what I know". ;)

The thread is under "The End of the Game" in the Peter Green section.

[slipkid]

Yes, that song is one of my favourites of his, if not THE fave for me, as simple as it is. I bought it as a single while in art college in 1964 when it was titled 'Umm Yeah" and I wore it out. It had overdubs by Jimmy Gilmer's Fireballs, but nothing beats the acoustic version heard in 'Juno'. Beautiful; as are a lot of those he recorded in his NY apt just before he passed on.

I've read on another forum that they are releasing the "Apartment Tapes" as part of a 3 CD set to mark the 50th Anniversary of Holly's death. I don't know if this is true or not, but I've also read that Holly's songs will become public domain 2/3/09? That may explain the new reissues. The current release date is 2/10/09 as it's been pushed back several times.

[snoot]

It's just that sometimes your "facts" err opinions I don't agree with. :p However, I agree with your assessment of Buddy Holly.

When are you going to learn you can't argue with the facts! :shrug: LOL

I think of Bill Haley's Comets as a rock-abilly band with horns. The Crickets were a drummer, a bass player, and a guitarist, IE a rock band. Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry along with Holly maybe my favorite artist(s) from this era so you won't get any arguments from me.

It's hard to deny Bill Haley his place with that great Rock Around The Clock anthem of his. May not have been technically the first R&R tune circa 1954 (after all, he did do Crazy Man, Crazy a year earlier), but that little ditty set so many wheels a-turning. IIRC, it was recorded at the Pythian Temple studios in NYC, where Buddy would later record himself. [also hard to believe it's barely over 2 minutes long - amazing].

And yes, all the acts above were golden. You hear a spattering of each on Kiln House, with the sound and style appropriately modernized. That is still sounds fresh today is a testament to how well the guys put their heads together and made the most of an otherwise unfortunate hand. I often wish we had a KH-2, and I guess we sort of do with the Madison Blues compilation release (with emphasis on sort of ).

His influence on the British bands of the 60's and beyond is hard to quantify. Of course we all know of someone who was at his creative peak for three years until he left. At least in his case, he's still alive.

Good parallel. Too bad the psychedelic era led so many down the road of heavy drug use, often stemming from more innocent experimentation. It was all the rage back then! If it hadn't been for that key element, things may have spun a different way for the Mac. In fact, it would have almost certainly.

To quote Peter Gabriel, "I know what I like, and I like what I know". ;)

Not bad from PG, but try this instead: What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular. *Truth*

The thread is under "The End of the Game" in the Peter Green section.

Ah yes, THAT thread! Not a bad one at all if I may say so. I must find my way there yet again.

[snoot]

Yes, that song is one of my favourites of his, if not THE fave for me, as simple as it is. I bought it as a single while in art college in 1964 when it was titled 'Umm Yeah" and I wore it out. It had overdubs by Jimmy Gilmer's Fireballs, but nothing beats the acoustic version heard in 'Juno'. Beautiful; as are a lot of those he recorded in his NY apt just before he passed on.

With guitar work from ace George Tomsco, the Fireballs being guided by Buddy's longtime producer, Norman Petty. A little taste of Tex-Mex from that famed Clovis, NM studio.

And yes, the Apartment Demos show where things were going, ever upward. Buddy was in fact just peaking!

Good to see the man who was so instrumental in the making of Kiln House stopping by to share a few thoughts. Hope our comments have done it justice! They've been overwhelmingly positive, reflective of the production itself. You and Danny worked like a pair of seasoned aces leading that project, and really pulled it off well.

[Norton]

At the age of nine, I had a 2 LP MCA collection of Buddy Holly songs. I was hooked for life. I now have a 2CD collection of many of the great songs, but I'm a little miffed that it doesn't have the GREAT song "Dearest" that's featured on the "Juno" soundtrack. It's only available as an import.


Yes, that song is one of my favourites of his, if not THE fave for me, as simple as it is. I bought it as a single while in art college in 1964 when it was titled 'Umm Yeah" and I wore it out. It had overdubs by Jimmy Gilmer's Fireballs, but nothing beats the acoustic version heard in 'Juno'. Beautiful; as are a lot of those he recorded in his NY apt just before he passed on.

This started me looking back at my Buddy Holly stuff... I know the track, but dementia seems to get in the way...

Where was I?

Oh yes; I found a 45 that I had bought back in 1963, What To Do, and the flip side is Umm Oh Yeah. Coral Q 72469... now I have to get the 'old record deck' and an amp and speakers set up because I cant sleep until I have listened to it again..... Thanks for triggering the memory, Buddy Holly started the whole musical journey for me.

[Moz]

I've changed my mind about This is the Rock - it's starting to grow on me!

[snoot]

I've changed my mind about This is the Rock - it's starting to grow on me!

Next up! Buddy's Song and Blood On The Floor. :laugh: The former is a picture perfect Holly tribute (borderline cover really), the latter a classic parody/satire in song done only as Jeremy could do it.

[michelej1]

Another review from David Bowling of Blogcritics.org. He's going down the FM catalog.
http://blogcritics.org/music/article/music-review-fleetwood-mac-kiln-house/

10/24/2010

Music Review: Fleetwood Mac - Kiln HouseBy DAVID BOWLING
BLOGCRITICS.ORG

There was such animosity between Fleetwood Mac band members Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer that they refused to even play together in the recording studio. 1969’s Then Play On found Spencer virtually absent from the recording process. Danny Kirwan was brought in as a third guitarist and he and Green formed a formidable duo. 1970 found Green missing and Spencer back on board. Bassist John McVie and drummer Mick Fleetwood remained in place. Christine Perfect McVie was back as an unaccredited vocalist who also provided the album’s cover art. She would become an official member of the group shortly after its completion.

Kiln House is the beginning of the transition for Fleetwood Mac. Green was an accomplished blues purist while Kirwan had some rock leanings. Spencer was unique and basically did what he wanted, which was very apparent on this release. I have always found it interesting that the further they moved from the blues during this period of their existence, the less popular they became in their home country while increasingly becoming more popular in The United States. Kiln House was their lowest charting album to date in The U.K. (39) and their highest in The USA (69).

Kirwan and Spencer were both excellent guitarists but were just different and their contributions show these differences very clearly.

Spencer’s work had a fifties rock feel. “This Is A Rock” is basically a rockabilly piece. “Hi Ho Silver” is tongue in cheek. Spencer wrote the track but credited it to Fats Waller and Ed Kirkeby. “Buddy’s Song” is likewise credited to Buddy Holly’s mother. It was a creative and amusing take on “Peggy Sue Got Married” with new lyrics which included a number of Buddy Holly song titles. “One Together” is about the most normal of the Spencer creations.

Kirwan’s songs shared the limelight with Spencer’s. “Jewel Eyed Lady” features some excellent guitar playing. “Earl Gray” is an instrumental that shows his skills well. “Tell Me All The Things You Do” is another fine performance by Kirwan.

The best track, “Station Man,” was written by Kirwan, Spencer, and McVie and is a hard driving rock song. One can only wish that this lineup could have produced more material like this.

Kiln House is a unique release in the vast Fleetwood Mac catalogue as it was their first move toward a mainstream sound. If you could never make up your mind whether you liked the blues or pop/rock Fleetwood Mac, give this album a try as it contains elements of both.