Songs that Should have Made the cut...

[MikeBangle]

Hey all,

I came across a demo of Juliet done with Fleetwood Mac for Tango In the Night. Of Course, Juliet eventually made it on The Other Side of the Mirror, but I think it would have made a cool FM song!

So what songs out there, demo or otherwise, should have made the cut on a Fleetwood Mac album, but didn't.

Thoughts?

MikeBangle

[ontheEdgeof17]

'Silver Springs', of course....but THE DANCE wouldn't have been THE DANCE if SS was "well-known"....kinda glad it was left off


"Smile At You" off Mirage


...That's all for me at the moment...I like most of the albums as is.



-Curtis

[Street Angel]

I agree, Juliet could have been a good choice. Another song would be Joan Of Arc - that should've been on Tango In The Night as well, in my opinion.

[dissention]

That demo of Juliet is unbearable. She sounds terrible.

I always thought If You Were My Love should've made it onto Mirage, the Mac version of it rocks.

Julia and Gold and Braid should've been on Bella Donna in place of Think About It and After the Glitter Fades.

Down On Rodeo should've been on SYW instead of Bleed To Love Her.

Anything could've taken the place of Sweet Girl on The Dance.

[Hawkeye]

That demo of Juliet is unbearable. She sounds terrible.

I always thought If You Were My Love should've made it onto Mirage, the Mac version of it rocks.

Julia and Gold and Braid should've been on Bella Donna in place of Think About It and After the Glitter Fades.

Down On Rodeo should've been on SYW instead of Bleed To Love Her.



I agree completely witht those 3, but I'll expand on the Bella Donna one. Gold and Braid replaces ATGF but Blue Lamp replaces Think About It which should've been on Rumours 4 years earlier knocking IDWTK off the map completely.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I always thought If You Were My Love should've made it onto Mirage, the Mac version of it rocks.

Agreed. Would have been an awesome opener to the second side.



-Curtis

[David]

'Silver Springs', of course
That's foremost on my list, too.

Also:

Bella Donna
"Gold & Braid" instead of "The Highwayman"
"Insider" instead of "Stop Dragging My Heart Around"

The Wild Heart
"Destiny" instead of "Gate & Garden"
"Sleeping Angel" instead of "Nothing Ever Changes"
"Garbo" instead of "Enchanted"

Rock a Little
"Lady from the Mountain" instead of "I Sing for the Things"
"Jimmy Come On Back" instead of "No Spoken Word"

The Other Side of the Mirror
"The Crystal" instead of "Whole Lotta Trouble"
"Dial the Number" instead of "I Still Miss Someone"
"Tragedy of One's Own Soul" instead of "Doing the Best That I Can"

Mirage
"Smile at You" instead of "Straight Back"

[Wild_Heart03]

I always thought If You Were My Love should've made it onto Mirage, the Mac version of it rocks.


Oh most definitely... this would've been an awesome addition to the album. They should put it on the Mirage reissue... should that ever be released. :laugh:

[darklinensuit]

That's foremost on my list, too.

Also:

Bella Donna
"Gold & Braid" instead of "The Highwayman"
"Insider" instead of "Stop Dragging My Heart Around"

The Wild Heart
"Destiny" instead of "Gate & Garden"
"Sleeping Angel" instead of "Nothing Ever Changes"
"Garbo" instead of "Enchanted"

Rock a Little
"Lady from the Mountain" instead of "I Sing for the Things"
"Jimmy Come On Back" instead of "No Spoken Word"

The Other Side of the Mirror
"The Crystal" instead of "Whole Lotta Trouble"
"Dial the Number" instead of "I Still Miss Someone"
"Tragedy of One's Own Soul" instead of "Doing the Best That I Can"

Mirage
"Smile at You" instead of "Straight Back"

The other day I was going to post a thread about subbing LFTM for I Sing For The Things. Freaky.

But I disagree on Tragedy Of One's Own Soul. I much prefer Doing The Best That I Can. And No Spoken Word is terrific, as is The Highwayman.
And I would sub Garbo for Beauty And The Beast. Sue me.
If Sleeping Angel bumps anything, it should be I Will Run To You.

And I'd sub She Still Loves Him for Some Become Strangers or even HAEWAFY. Sorry.


I think Think About It from the remastered is great and would have done well on a Mac album, along with Planets.

But it works both ways. The Mac benefited from the BD leftover Gypsy.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Anything could've taken the place of Sweet Girl on The Dance.

The version on Enchanted is better, IMO.

- Jake

[dissention]

The version on Enchanted is better, IMO.

- Jake

I like the Dance version better than that one because she has some powerful vocals on it, especially at the end, but overall the song is pretty blah.

[bikerchic]

Man you guys know your stuff! :nod:

[Carolina Girl]

I think Twist of Fate would be a great FM song, with Christine and Stevie singing the chorus. This would have been a "perfect" song for a Christine guest spot on SYW, maybe replacing Bleed to Love Her. I love BTLH, but we already had a nice version of that on The Dance.

I do have to qualify this by saying I do NOT want Lindsey's solo work taken over by FM; I just think Twist of Fate is a very FM-y kind of song.

[Hippocampus]

This could take a while :) so I'll limit myself to the FM albums:

On Rumours:
-"Silver Springs" instead of "Oh Daddy"

On Mirage:
- "If You Were My Love" instead of "Straight Back"
- "Smile At You" instead of "Oh Diane"
- "Goodbye Angel" instead of the horrific "Empire State"
- Any half-finished leftover demo/idea (yes maybe even "Teen Beat") instead of "Only Over You" :sorry: Ahem. Why not "Blue Monday"?

On Tango:
"Down Endless Street" instead of "Family Man"

On Behind The Mask:
- "Intuition" instead of "Stand On The Rock"
- "Victim Of Love" instead of "Do You Know"
- "Got No Home" instead of "When The Sun Goes Down"

On Say You Will:
"Down On Rodeo" instead of "What's The World Coming To"
"Space Needle" (among so many others) instead of "Silver Girl"

[dissention]

"Space Needle" (among so many others) instead of "Silver Girl"

Mmmm, good one. Only I'd put it in place of Say You Will to make the dark feel of the album is more consistent.

[DeadliestPoison]

I want "Joan Of Arc" to get albumized. Just because it's so cool sounding.

"Space Needle?" Needs to be on an album. Preferably a Stevie solo album, but hey - I'm fine with anything re: Space Needle.

[darklinensuit]

Mmmm, good one. Only I'd put it in place of Say You Will to make the dark feel of the album is more consistent.

Dark feel? I think SYHA and WTWCT are pretty upbeat sounding. :confused:
You just want to cut that song. :wavey:

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

On Tango:
"Down Endless Street" instead of "Family Man"

Or even Ricky or WHR&REDFY instead of Family Man.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

I like the Dance version better than that one because she has some powerful vocals on it, especially at the end, but overall the song is pretty blah.

I love the rhythm/bounce of the Enchanted version.

- Jake

[dissention]

Dark feel? I think SYHA and WTWCT are pretty upbeat sounding. :confused:
You just want to cut that song. :wavey:

- Jake

Those songs aren't dark?

"All alone we go
All day after day
All alone we suffer
Oh, steal your heart away
It's the same old thing
In the same old way
All alone we suffer
Oh, steal your heart away"

"What's the world coming to
What they say isn't true
You can't plant no seed
Well there's only greed
I can walk anywhere
I can walk anytime
But the lone highway
Is the only way

"Every night, every day
In this house filled with shame
I can say I care
But there's no one there
There's no truth in my lies
There's no light in my eyes
And it's all I guess
That I'll ever miss"

Take away Say You Will and the album is consistent. It doesn't mean it's a bad song, but it totally disrupts the "feel" of the album.

[Wild_Heart03]

Or even Ricky or WHR&REDFY instead of Family Man.

- Jake

I think that You And I Pt. I would have been an awesome addition as well... there's something about it I like a lot better than the Pt II that actually got on the album.

[darklinensuit]

Those songs aren't dark?

"All alone we go
All day after day
All alone we suffer
Oh, steal your heart away
It's the same old thing
In the same old way
All alone we suffer
Oh, steal your heart away"

"What's the world coming to
What they say isn't true
You can't plant no seed
Well there's only greed
I can walk anywhere
I can walk anytime
But the lone highway
Is the only way

"Every night, every day
In this house filled with shame
I can say I care
But there's no one there
There's no truth in my lies
There's no light in my eyes
And it's all I guess
That I'll ever miss"

Take away Say You Will and the album is consistent. It doesn't mean it's a bad song, but it totally disrupts the "feel" of the album.

I said it's upbeat sounding; I wasn't referring to the lyrics.

The song SYW is consistent with Stevie's promise always to leave a bit of hope in the message. One song out of 18 giving a glimmer of hope doesn't destroy the consistency, not when the song refers to a place she remembers as being dark.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

I think that You And I Pt. I would have been an awesome addition as well... there's something about it I like a lot better than the Pt II that actually got on the album.

The majority here is with you on this, but I never loved Pt. I too much.

I do like Pt. II, but it has the sound of the Love Boat Acapulco Lounge and there's something that makes me picture Martin Short's Ed Grimley dancing to it.

- Jake

[dissention]

I said it's upbeat sounding; I wasn't referring to the lyrics.

The song SYW is consistent with Stevie's promise always to leave a bit of hope in the message. One song out of 18 giving a glimmer of hope doesn't destroy the consistency, not when the song refers to a place she remembers as being dark.

- Jake

Imperial Hotel is very upbeat, but it's a downer of a song.

It's just my opinion, but the song is out of place, especially when it's on an album with the likes of Come, Illume, Murrow, Goodbye Baby, RTTG, Silver Girl, and the rest of the crew. It sticks out like a sore thumb and those munchkins at the end really push it over the top.

[darklinensuit]

Imperial Hotel is very upbeat, but it's a downer of a song.

It's just my opinion, but the song is out of place, especially when it's on an album with the likes of Come, Illume, Murrow, Goodbye Baby, RTTG, Silver Girl, and the rest of the crew. It sticks out like a sore thumb and those munchkins at the end really push it over the top.

I love the sound of the kids at the end; it's like she's harking back to an innocent time when she & Lindsey were still young and dreaming together. But I know most folks here hate it.

Imperial Hotel is not a downer to me. "She knows in her heart that he will stand by her..." To me it's a better version of That Made Me Stronger. She's being a drama queen, and he's talking her down from the Ledge, like hey, things are not bad really. Get over it. The lyric "This is the path you have chosen" is far better than "You write your songs yourself." Plus the vocal kicks ass.

- Jake

[chiliD]

On Behind The Mask:
- "Intuition" instead of "Stand On The Rock"
- "Victim Of Love" instead of "Do You Know"
- "Got No Home" instead of "When The Sun Goes Down"

Actually, I'd say:

"Got No Home" instead of "Stand On The Rock"
"Intuition" instead of "The Second Time"

"Victim Of Love" as a bonus track on the "Got No Home" CD single. ;)

[dissention]

I love the sound of the kids at the end; it's like she's harking back to an innocent time when she & Lindsey were still young and dreaming together. But I know most folks here hate it.

Imperial Hotel is not a downer to me. "She knows in her heart that he will stand by her..." To me it's a better version of That Made Me Stronger. She's being a drama queen, and he's talking her down from the Ledge, like hey, things are not bad really. Get over it. The lyric "This is the path you have chosen" is far better than "You write your songs yourself." Plus the vocal kicks ass.

- Jake

We don't know if SYW is about Lindsey, pal. ;)

Imperial Hotel is a major downer, IMO. For cripes sake, the name of the song is Imperial Hotel. I always thought she was talking about how much she loves her career, but also how she hates it equally as much for what it can't afford her or allow her to have.

[darklinensuit]

We don't know if SYW is about Lindsey, pal. ;)

Imperial Hotel is a major downer, IMO. For cripes sake, the name of the song is Imperial Hotel. I always thought she was talking about how much she loves her career, but also how she hates it equally as much for what it can't afford her or allow her to have.

Come on, it's about all of the, otherwise why choose it as the title song.

I took IH to mean the woman what wants to be queen (Imperial) not just professionally but personally too), who's afraid to leave because she's still but a guest, who's struggling that rulers make bad lovers - - - but the guy is reminding her that she can always check out, and that whether she does or not, he'll stand by her. Not a downer IMO.

- Jake

[dissention]

Come on, it's about all of the, otherwise why choose it as the title song.

I took IH to mean the woman what wants to be queen (Imperial) not just professionally but personally too), who's afraid to leave because she's still but a guest, who's struggling that rulers make bad lovers - - - but the guy is reminding her that she can always check out, and that whether she does or not, he'll stand by her. Not a downer IMO.

- Jake

I always interpreted it as her saying her career has an imperial rule over everything and no matter how much she wants something, her career ends up making the decisions in the end, no matter how right or wrong that decision is. She's not the Imperial Queen, her career is. She can't leave because the hold it has on her is too strong, no matter how much some guy wants her all to himself.

[darklinensuit]

I always interpreted it as her saying her career has an imperial rule over everything and no matter how much she wants something, her career ends up making the decisions in the end, no matter how right or wrong that decision is.

I can see that, though it's not my favorite take on the song, but still, the guy at the end is standing by her, and her big complaint had been that she was alone. So it's still not a downer.

- Jake

[snwriter]

After the Glitter Fades is one of Stevie's best songs ever and should not be removed from BD. And Think About It is a fine song.

ANd I love Insider, but if you removed SDMHA, Bella Donna may not have been a hit and ignited her solo career!

[dissention]

I can see that, though it's not my favorite take on the song, but still, the guy at the end is standing by her, and her big complaint had been that she was alone. So it's still not a downer.

- Jake

That's alright, I'm not fond of your take on it, either. ;)

She is alone because while some dude is telling her he'll stick by her and love her, she can't give those feelings back to him completely. The rule her career has over her is too strong for her to reciprocate those feelings. They've sat across from each other, battling that very issue out every time, and it always ends the same way: her true love is her career and her relationships suffer because of it.

[dissention]

After the Glitter Fades is one of Stevie's best songs ever and should not be removed from BD. And Think About It is a fine song.

Sorry, they're dull to these ears. Julia is a masterpiece that should've been on the album and Gold and Braid is one of my favorites.

[darklinensuit]

That's alright, I'm not fond of your take on it, either. ;)

She is alone because while some dude is telling her he'll stick by her and love her, she can't give those feelings back to him completely. The rule her career has over her is too strong for her to reciprocate those feelings. They've sat across from each other, battling that very issue out every time, and it always ends the same way: her true love is her career and her relationships suffer because of it.

Where do you see that in the lyrics?

- Jake

[dissention]

Where do you see that in the lyrics?

- Jake

Sorry, I had a spasm. :lol: She was talking to her friend, not her lover. It doesn't help with that mangled booklet that comes the CD, ya know. But minus her talking to him across the freakin' glass table, my interpretation still stands.

[darklinensuit]

Sorry, they're dull to these ears. Julia is a masterpiece that should've been on the album and Gold and Braid is one of my favorites.

I think Julia is overrated - not her best vocal. Gold And Braid is great, but nothing can beat the live version from the HBO concert. And nothing should replace TAI or ATGF. Why mess with a perfect album.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Sorry, I had a spasm. :lol: She was talking to her friend, not her lover. It doesn't help with that mangled booklet that comes the CD, ya know. But minus her talking to him across the freakin' glass table, my interpretation still stands.

I still don't see it. :shrug:
The song says, if I recall, that she knows in her heart that he will stand by her, that he can save her, and there's the line that she just went home - meaning she's not in the hotel any longer.

- Jake

[tommer]

annabel lee ! ! ! :]

[dissention]

I think Julia is overrated - not her best vocal. Gold And Braid is great, but nothing can beat the live version from the HBO concert. And nothing should replace TAI or ATGF. Why mess with a perfect album.

- Jake

It's not a perfect album to me. ;) Those two songs drag it down, IMO.

Have you heard the 3-1-81 version from the Blue Lamp reel? That version sends shivers up my spine, it's awe-inspiring. I think it's one of her best vocals, released or unreleased. :nod: When she sings "I am free from my slavery," I get goosepimples. :D

[dissention]

I still don't see it. :shrug:
The song says, if I recall, that she knows in her heart that he will stand by her, that he can save her, and there's the line that she just went home - meaning she's not in the hotel any longer.

- Jake

Yeah, she's saying he'll stand by her, but she's also saying that even if he does stand by her, he can't do much of anyhting to help her.

"So, you can get her
But you can't keep her
And you can't catch her fall
Well, she will call you
When she needs you
You know where she lives
The Imperial Hotel"

When she needs comfort, she'll call him, but otherwise, she's alone. He says not to cry because he can save her, but she knows that's not true. :wavey:

[David]

Yeah, she's saying he'll stand by her, but she's also saying that even if he does stand by her, he can't do much of anyhting to help her.

"So, you can get her
But you can't keep her
And you can't catch her fall
Well, she will call you
When she needs you
You know where she lives
The Imperial Hotel"

When she needs comfort, she'll call him, but otherwise, she's alone. He says not to cry because he can save her, but she knows that's not true.Do you guys remember the story that "Imperial Hotel" was Stevie's code word for the old Sunset Marquis Hotel on Sunset Boulevard?

[wondergirl9847]

PLEASE release a Lindsey included Space Needle!!! The dude singing with her at that one part sounds like Vince Gill. LOL In theory, I should hate SN because it's a very long, drawn out, slow, plodding song, but dangit, I love it. :shrug: It's such a dark song and I love those kind. :nod:

[darklinensuit]

It's not a perfect album to me. ;) Those two songs drag it down, IMO.

Have you heard the 3-1-81 version from the Blue Lamp reel? That version sends shivers up my spine, it's awe-inspiring. I think it's one of her best vocals, released or unreleased. :nod: When she sings "I am free from my slavery," I get goosepimples. :D

I think I have only two or three versions, & the dates are not labeled.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

Yeah, she's saying he'll stand by her, but she's also saying that even if he does stand by her, he can't do much of anyhting to help her.

"So, you can get her
But you can't keep her
And you can't catch her fall
Well, she will call you
When she needs you
You know where she lives
The Imperial Hotel"

When she needs comfort, she'll call him, but otherwise, she's alone. He says not to cry because he can save her, but she knows that's not true. :wavey:

Save her from what? Like I said, she checks out of the hotel to go home.

(It's like we're studying Shakespeare or the Bible here. :lol: :cool: )

- Jake

[dissention]

Save her from what? Like I said, she checks out of the hotel to go home.

(It's like we're studying Shakespeare or the Bible here. :lol: :cool: )

- Jake

Forget it, you'll just argue for arguments sake. ;) :lol: Ask Stevie what she's being saved from (or not being saved from), they're her lyrics.

[darklinensuit]

Forget it, you'll just argue for arguments sake. ;) :lol: Ask Stevie what she's being saved from (or not being saved from), they're her lyrics.

Like I said, it doesn't matter by the end of the song - the problem is solved when she checks out. And you're just arguiong to be a pain in the @ss. ;)

- Jake

[dissention]

Like I said, it doesn't matter by the end of the song - the problem is solved when she checks out. And you're just arguiong to be a pain in the @ss. ;)

- Jake

But who's to say she'll never check back in?

:laugh:

[JamieSPC]

So since If You Were My Love is a clear favorite...

... where can we hear the much-lauded Fleetwood Mac version? I've heard Stevie's version with her back-up singers and it sure doesn't rock. If someone wants to e-mail me the FM version, I will post it on my site.

Is there a good clear version anywhere?

~Jamie

[EveryHour]

Joan Of Arc on TITN. It pains me it's not on there. It would've fit in so well with the mood of TITN (the song), etc. Such an AMAZING song. The sound is so unique and would've been something a little different for Stevie to have on an FM album. Definitely one of my all-time Stevie faves period.:nod:

[darklinensuit]

But who's to say she'll never check back in?

:laugh:

Her Evian bottle is always half empty with you, isn't it? :shrug: :lol:

- Jake

[Johnny Stew]

Ask Stevie what she's being saved from (or not being saved from), they're her lyrics.

I'm still waiting to find out what the heck Lindsey was going to tell us, when he claimed "I'll tell you now," waaaaay back in 1981!
Talk about not finishing a thought and leaving someone hanging! :laugh:

[dissention]

I'm still waiting to find out what the heck Lindsey was going to tell us, when he claimed "I'll tell you now," waaaaay back in 1981!
Talk about not finishing a thought and leaving someone hanging! :laugh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[EveryHour]

Her Evian bottle is always half empty with you, isn't it? :shrug: :lol:

- Jake

...but Stevie's notorious for not drinking water! :D

[pwyll]

There is NO DOUBT....."Julia" should have appeared somewhere on a Stevie cd.

That's all I have to say.

~Bob

[Vianna]

You and I Part I should have been on TITN instead of Caroline. I agree that Smile At You should have made it onto Mirage...

and Silver Springs goes on Rumours-no contest!

[amber]

You and I Part I should have been on TITN instead of Caroline. I agree that Smile At You should have made it onto Mirage...

and Silver Springs goes on Rumours-no contest!
I haven't heard You and I part I, But I really like Caroline. Why couldn't some crappier song be taken off TITN?
AMber

[darklinensuit]

...but Stevie's notorious for not drinking water! :D

It's for the Yorkies. :shrug:

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

I haven't heard You and I part I, But I really like Caroline. Why couldn't some crappier song be taken off TITN?
AMber

We've tried, but Family Man won't budge. :shrug:

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

I don't think anybody else has mentioned this one, but I really like Doesn't Anything Last from the re-mastered. Reminds me of old BN Lindsey such as Without A Leg To Stand On, and similarly, it ends way too soon.

- Jake

[Wild_Heart03]

I haven't heard You and I part I, But I really like Caroline. Why couldn't some crappier song be taken off TITN?
AMber

You haven't heard You And I Pt. I yet?? Go get it off of Throwndown, it's in the Reposts. Very good IMO! :)

[dissention]

We've tried, but Family Man won't budge. :shrug:

- Jake

Don't you mean When I See You Again, the musical equivalent of feces? :cool:

[darklinensuit]

Don't you mean When I See You Again, the musical equivalent of feces? :cool:

No, I sure don't.
And you've got the songs mixed up. If anything, Family Man is the musical equivalent of feces. "Walk and explode, When the load gets rough, I sit down, I gas up, I fart when I can, I fart when I can, I fart when I can, a Family Man, A Family Man." :wavey:

- Jake

[dissention]

No, I sure don't.
And you've got the songs mixed up. If anything, Family Man is the musical equivalent of feces. "Walk and explode, When the load gets rough, I sit down, I gas up, I fart when I can, I fart when I can, I fart when I can, a Family Man, A Family Man." :wavey:

- Jake

That doesn't hold a candle to my "Running For the Outhouse" and you know it. :rolleyes: :laugh:

[darklinensuit]

That doesn't hold a candle to my "Running For the Outhouse" and you know it. :rolleyes: :laugh:

I wouldn't hold a candle to that, that would be a fire hazard.

- Jake

[dissention]

I wouldn't hold a candle to that, that would be a fire hazard.

- Jake

I wasn't referring to one of your bleaching clients. :rolleyes:

[darklinensuit]

I wasn't referring to one of your bleaching clients. :rolleyes:

I understand the reference, you're still upset that they did your wrong end and called it a "chemical peel." Blemished "face" I'm sure!

- Jake

[dissention]

I understand the reference, you're still upset that they did your wrong end and called it a "chemical peel." Blemished "face" I'm sure!

- Jake

I know you're still upset that I haven't let you bleach me, but the thought of Jake with Clorox and a cotton swab does not make me all warm and fuzzy.

[darklinensuit]

I know you're still upset that I haven't let you bleach me, but the thought of Jake with Clorox and a cotton swab does not make me all warm and fuzzy.

You're just afraid somebody will accidentally treat your face again.
BTW, if your goal is to be warm and fuzzy, stop waxing back there. :lol:

- Jake

[dissention]

You're just afraid somebody will accidentally treat your face again.
BTW, if your goal is to be warm and fuzzy, stop waxing back there. :lol:

- Jake

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[amber]

We've tried, but Family Man won't budge. :shrug:

- Jake
But...It sucks so hard. SO hard. Harder than anything has ever sucked before. Harder than a crack wh*** looking for her next rock. Harder than an anteater who just found a prime mound. Harder than....that's all i got... :wavey:
Amber

[Wild_Heart03]

But...It sucks so hard. SO hard. Harder than anything has ever sucked before. Harder than a crack wh*** looking for her next rock. Harder than an anteater who just found a prime mound. Harder than....that's all i got... :wavey:
Amber

lol I agree... Family Man isn't the greatest song on TITN. :distress:

[darklinensuit]

lol I agree... Family Man isn't the greatest song on TITN. :distress:

It isn't even the greatest song on its own single. :lol:

- Jake

[Wild_Heart03]

It isn't even the greatest song on its own single. :lol:

- Jake


lol... sad but true! :nod:

[amber]

You haven't heard You And I Pt. I yet?? Go get it off of Throwndown, it's in the Reposts. Very good IMO! :)
Thanks! :xoxo:
AMber

[amber]

No, I sure don't.
And you've got the songs mixed up. If anything, Family Man is the musical equivalent of feces. "Walk and explode, When the load gets rough, I sit down, I gas up, I fart when I can, I fart when I can, I fart when I can, a Family Man, A Family Man." :wavey:

- Jake
Yeah!! Does Diss really like family man better than WISYA? Geez... :wavey:
Amber

[Wild_Heart03]

Thanks! :xoxo:
AMber

No problem.. just figured you'd want to hear it. :)

[darklinensuit]

Yeah!! Does Diss really like family man better than WISYA? Geez... :wavey:
Amber

So he says. To each his own. :shrug:

- Jake

[dissention]

Yeah!! Does Diss really like family man better than WISYA? Geez... :wavey:
Amber

You bet your arse. :laugh:

WISYA is utter crap. Everything about it is crap. She sounds like she forgot how to sing, the music is so cheesy and maudlin, and the lyrics are torturous. While the Family Man lyrics are crap, the music rocks. :D

[Johnny Stew]

WISYA is utter crap. Everything about it is crap. She sounds like she forgot how to sing, the music is so cheesy and maudlin, and the lyrics are torturous. While the Family Man lyrics are crap, the music rocks. :D

Hmm... if we're talking cheesy music, then I think "Family Man" would count there, for sure. It is absolutely grounded in '80s synth-pop after all, and check out the high pitch-to-low pitch VSO effect at 2:22, which is pure '80s.

Don't get me wrong here... I love "Family Man." I think it's totally fun, and it always puts a smile on my face. But I'm baffled that you'd think "WISA" is cheesier than "Family Man," of all songs. :shrug:

By the way, the whole point of Stevie's raspy whisper on "WISA," is to further convey the sense of despondency and loneliness she's feeling. Every part of that song... her voice, the sparse lyrics, the repetition of the central lyrical question, the acoustical instrumentation, and so on... it's all so achingly beautiful.
Like I've said, it's VERY difficult to convey depression and ennui in a song, but Stevie did it brilliantly (with additional props to Lindsey, for his intuitive production).
*sighs*
If only everyone had the good taste I have. :p ;)

[David]

Hmm... if we're talking cheesy music, then I think "Family Man" would count there, for sure. It is absolutely grounded in '80s synth-pop after all, and check out the high pitch-to-low pitch VSO effect at 2:22, which is pure '80s.Or even '70s. David Bowie's Fame.
If only everyone had the good taste I have. :p ;)I hear ya, Johnny!

[darklinensuit]

You bet your arse. :laugh:

WISYA is utter crap. Everything about it is crap. She sounds like she forgot how to sing, the music is so cheesy and maudlin, and the lyrics are torturous. While the Family Man lyrics are crap, the music rocks. :D

I thought you like Lindsey's part in WISYA.
And the music to Family Man is even worse than the terrible lyrics. Annoying, lacking fun, and unable to touch the emotions.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

If only everyone had the good taste I have. :p ;)

I could live with that. It just needs to be tweaked a bit so that it's really right (i.e., mine :nod: ).

- Jake

[face of glass]

"When I See You Again" and "Family Man" are the most obvious self-parodies that Nicks and Buckingham have created.
The "flaws" in their music are at their most visible and at their most extreme here:
LB:

minimal, inane lyrics that no one would seriously consider as passable
mainly focusing on the arrangement instead of the songwriting or the (God forbid) message
altering the vocals to an almost inhuman point
the lyrics, music, arrangement and the delivery should all be taken together in order to get the intentional effect

SN:

minimal lyrics that try both for an universalist effect (verses/chorus) and for an esoteric one (middle eight)
the song would lose a lot of its charm without the delivery
confessionalism to the brink, to such an extreme that certain people are bound to find it unbearable

That's how I see it. I do not see these tracks as anything else than fan favourites and that's how they will be deemed even much later on, if anything from Tango In The Night will survive for the future generations. I personally loath the conception of "a fan favourite". It seems to suggest that one should train oneself in order to grasp the meaning of a particular thing. For me that is not desirable.
And the music to Family Man is even worse than the terrible lyrics. Annoying, lacking fun, and unable to touch the emotions.
So if I say that "Family Man" is comparable to what Brian Wilson did on The Beach Boys' Love You album; providing us with a glimpse to his perverted mind that had almost returned back to its childlike/childish status, it won't mean a thing to most people around here. And if someone claims that in order to understand "WISYA" one has had to go through the same" despondency and loneliness she's feeling" then that won't mean a thing to me.

In fact, ideologically I will always pick "Family Man" over "When I See You Again". The former may be a self-parody but it might as well be a conscious self-parody; he puts in a sloppy lyric and puts it all through those cartoonish voices that completely change the feel of the piece. If he sang it with his normal voice in a serious tone I'd hate the song. Now it feels essentially like a mockery of family values, not a glorification of those.

"When I See You Again", on the other hand, is the unintentional self-parody. It's Nicks at her most confessional and occasionally it becomes too much for me. It doesn't prevent me from liking the song and being moved by the delivery, but I will always take a lightweight song over the confessional serious one especially when we're speaking of the esoteric areas of artistic expression. And that's the case here.

But hey, that's just my mouth a-talkin' and it only speaks for what kind of person I am, nothing more. I may find "FM" a bit more moving than "WISYA" but that's my bias. I know the common assumption with these two tracks is that one either hates them or loves them. Well I don't love or hate them, I just like them. I think they're of equal depth and they can provoke as much thoughts and as much emotions from us, even if they are of a different kind. In other words, they're just decent. Now that's what I call revenge on 7+ minutes of pure mind torture! ;)

[amber]

You bet your arse. :laugh:

WISYA is utter crap. Everything about it is crap. She sounds like she forgot how to sing, the music is so cheesy and maudlin, and the lyrics are torturous. While the Family Man lyrics are crap, the music rocks. :D

What Johnny Stew said
Amber

[amber]

No problem.. just figured you'd want to hear it. :)
Um, i think I listened to it, but i'm not sure. Did I accidentally get some demo where stevie's vocal hadn't been added in yet, or is it really like that? Not sure i like it then. Didn't listen all the way to the very end, though.
Amber

[Vianna]

I Love WISYA. It's hauntingly beautiful. Now, Family Man? I can do without but don't think it's that bad. Sort of boring or something.

[Wild_Heart03]

Um, i think I listened to it, but i'm not sure. Did I accidentally get some demo where stevie's vocal hadn't been added in yet, or is it really like that? Not sure i like it then. Didn't listen all the way to the very end, though.
Amber

I don't know actually... You And I Pt. I was solely a B-side that never had demos of any sort as far as I can tell.

[GypsySorcerer]

Add me to the list of those who prefer Family Man over WISYA. Family Man is not a favorite, but it's more pleasant than WISYA, at least to these ears.

[Hawkeye]

ily Man is my favorite song on Tango in the Night (well 2nd next to the title song but it helps to say favorite to illustrate my point in this thread better :laugh: ). it is a fraking masterpiece to me. The thing that makes the song great is the music of course. The guitar solos are incredible. And I love the Popeye I am what I yams. And they way Lindsey harmonizes with himeself on FAMILY MAN. And I love the Stevie kind of weird singing vocals in the middle. The one weak point to Family man is the lyrics, but really lyrics are the least important component to a great song. That aren't THAT bad of lyrics to affect this wonderful song.



I can't WAIT for the Tango in the Night survivor. Round 1 will be like the biggest showdown ever on the ledge. Family Man VS. WISYA. They'll be other songs, but all eyes will be on those 2 songs.

[DWIG]

Bella Donna is a flawless, classic album, and should not be messed with (though if remastered could include some extras, like Gold & Braid/Blue Lamp)

The Wild Heart is another great album, and maybe i would foresake I will run to you for Julia/She loves him still/ or Sanctuary

Rock a little - no way would i get rid of ISFTT or HAEWAFY (both classic Stevie songs). Maybe, at a push I would give up Some become strangers for If you were my love

TOSOTM- definately get rid of I miss someone (a terrible version of a too often covered song!) for Dial a number or TOOOS.

[Jason T.]

I like "Family Man." I think it just would of been better without Lindsey's voice -- that's one of the few songs of his that I think would of been better as a instrumental...lol.

[David]

The Wild Heart is another great album, and maybe i would foresake I will run to you for Julia/She loves him still/ or SanctuaryI don't care what Mike Bise says. I don't think Stevie ever recorded Julia for "The Wild Heart."

[David]

And if someone claims that in order to understand "WISYA" one has had to go through the same" despondency and loneliness she's feeling" then that won't mean a thing to me.It's an example -- with a twist -- of the affective fallacy, which the New Critics demolished decades ago.

I see lots of examples of the affective fallacy & the intentional fallacy (another New Critical term) in the way fans identify themselves with & respond to Nicks & Buckingham songs. But I do, too, so to hell with Wimsatt, Beardsley & Brooks.

[face of glass]

...to hell with Wimsatt, Beardsley & Brooks.
Well yeah, it's all about sex anyway. Or the lack of it.

[dissention]

I thought you like Lindsey's part in WISYA.
And the music to Family Man is even worse than the terrible lyrics. Annoying, lacking fun, and unable to touch the emotions.

- Jake

To be honest, I think Lindsey sounds strained in WISYA. :sorry:

[dissention]

Hmm... if we're talking cheesy music, then I think "Family Man" would count there, for sure. It is absolutely grounded in '80s synth-pop after all, and check out the high pitch-to-low pitch VSO effect at 2:22, which is pure '80s.

I don't find it cheesy, I find it intentionally cartoonish and that adds to my enjoyment of the song. Lindsey was not trying to be serious one bit with that song; he was going for an element of the ridiculous, as evidenced in the lyrics, his vocal alterations, and the music.

Don't get me wrong here... I love "Family Man." I think it's totally fun, and it always puts a smile on my face. But I'm baffled that you'd think "WISA" is cheesier than "Family Man," of all songs. :shrug:

Because Miss Nicks is the ultimate definition of cheesiness when it comes to her "me" songs. Case in point, WISYA and I Sing For the Things. Remarkably cheesy lyrics made even more cheesy and unbearable because she is actually being serious. Even the delivery Iin WISYA fails and thank god that's the ONLY time it's ever happened with Stevie. Her voice is cloying to the point where you just want to refer her to a good vocal instructor.

By the way, the whole point of Stevie's raspy whisper on "WISA," is to further convey the sense of despondency and loneliness she's feeling. Every part of that song... her voice, the sparse lyrics, the repetition of the central lyrical question, the acoustical instrumentation, and so on... it's all so achingly beautiful.

You've got the aching part right. One out of two ain't bad by my standards. ;) :lol:

Like I've said, it's VERY difficult to convey depression and ennui in a song, but Stevie did it brilliantly (with additional props to Lindsey, for his intuitive production).
*sighs*
If only everyone had the good taste I have. :p ;)

Hmmmm. I think depression and despondency are the easiest things to convey in a song, but that's just me.

[dissention]

I like "Family Man." I think it just would of been better without Lindsey's voice -- that's one of the few songs of his that I think would of been better as a instrumental...lol.

That's how I feel about WISYA. :laugh:

I? Love your avatar. :wavey:

[Johnny Stew]

It's an example -- with a twist -- of the affective fallacy, which the New Critics demolished decades ago.

I see lots of examples of the affective fallacy & the intentional fallacy (another New Critical term) in the way fans identify themselves with & respond to Nicks & Buckingham songs. But I do, too, so to hell with Wimsatt, Beardsley & Brooks.

I would have driven Wimsatt and Beardsley crazy, because I believe absolutely that the emotional effect of a song, poem, or literary work, has utmost importance when discussing its value.

Words are utterly useless, in my opinion, unless they have the power to elicit an emotional response within the reader or listener.

[Johnny Stew]

I don't find it cheesy, I find it intentionally cartoonish and that adds to my enjoyment of the song. Lindsey was not trying to be serious one bit with that song; he was going for an element of the ridiculous, as evidenced in the lyrics, his vocal alterations, and the music.

I completely disagree that it was "intentionally cartoonish."
If Lindsey had meant it to be cartoonish, I don't believe he would have wasted such a beautiful and intricate classical guitar line on it, nor sung the verses in such a gentle way.
And while the song has lighthearted touches, there's also a certain melancholic vibe to it that is far from "cartoonish."

Plus, the song is a descendent of some the stuff on 'Go Insane,' and a precursor to some of the stuff on 'Out Of The Cradle'... and I don't believe any of those songs were meant to be "intentionally cartoonish," either.
Offbeat? Yes. Quirky? Definitely. Uncoventional? Most assuredly.
But cartoonish? No way.


Because Miss Nicks is the ultimate definition of cheesiness when it comes to her "me" songs. Case in point, WISYA and I Sing For the Things. Remarkably cheesy lyrics made even more cheesy and unbearable because she is actually being serious.

Our problems are always serious to us, because they're our own... and Stevie's no different. So of course she's being serious when discussing the difficult aspects of her life, such as her unhappiness.

And it's very easy for someone on the outside to be dismissive of those problems.
Maybe it's because she's rich and famous, and, therefore, in the eyes of the world doesn't have a right to be unhappy. Or, God forbid, sing about it.


I think depression and despondency are the easiest things to convey in a song, but that's just me.

No. Romantic longing and yearning are the easiest things to convey in a song. As is anger, because it's viewed as empowering.

But the expression of depression and despondency is often greeted with hostility, or, at the very least, disinterest, because of the level of vulnerability... which is viewed as a weakness (or a downer).

Simple observation in social settings bears this out: People are typically far more willing to rally around you when you're angry or in the middle of a confrontational situation... but sit around and cry sometime, or talk about being unhappy or lonely, and see how many people sit there with you for an extended period of time.


Even the delivery Iin WISYA fails and thank god that's the ONLY time it's ever happened with Stevie. Her voice is cloying to the point where you just want to refer her to a good vocal instructor.

I imagine you'd tell Billie Holliday to find a good vocal instructor, too. :distress:

[HomerMcvie]

I imagine you'd tell Billie Holliday to find a good vocal instructor, too.
Woah. You're surely not comparing the two.....are you?

[Johnny Stew]

Woah. You're surely not comparing the two.....are you?

Why not? Each woman has her share of fans and detractors, and each woman has a unique voice that pleases some folks and annoys others.

So I think there are some reasonable comparisons there.

[Jason T.]

I Love your avatar. :wavey:

I get really bored and really pissed -- my avatar is the product of the two. :)

[Johnny Stew]

I get really bored and really pissed -- my avatar is the product of the two. :)

:laugh:

What's written in the middle of the Ben & Jerry's ice cream pic?

[dissention]

I completely disagree that it was "intentionally cartoonish."
If Lindsey had meant it to be cartoonish, I don't believe he would have wasted such a beautiful and intricate classical guitar line on it, nor sung the verses in such a gentle way.
And while the song has lighthearted touches, there's also a certain melancholic vibe to it that is far from "cartoonish."

Plus, the song is a descendent of some the stuff on 'Go Insane,' and a precursor to some of the stuff on 'Out Of The Cradle'... and I don't believe any of those songs were meant to be "intentionally cartoonish," either.
Offbeat? Yes. Quirky? Definitely. Uncoventional? Most assuredly.
But cartoonish? No way.

We'll agree to disagree, then. Everything about it is cartoonish, from the Popeye voices to the music. The extreme disparity between the verses and the chorus especially add to that; one minute your listening to a man singing in a rather beautiful manner, but then you notice the lyrics. Then the song launches into exercises in VSO manipulation and it continues back and forth.

The feel of the song fits within the feel of OOTC material, but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because it's cartoonish does not mean that it isn't good or that Lindsey would've thrown it together in a half-assed manner, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Our problems are always serious to us, because they're our own... and Stevie's no different. So of course she's being serious when discussing the difficult aspects of her life, such as her unhappiness.

Ah, yes. The age old retort that because Stevie is "baring her soul," the material must be of exquisite quality. :rolleyes: Sorry, any songwriter can "bare their soul" in some form, but if the end result isn't up to snuff, their soul-baring is either going to be largely ignored or considered bad. When you add bad singing and lazy songwriting to the mix, it becomes even more unbearable.

I might take the song more seriously if she didn't say "Wazzamattababay?" three million times and if she could write better lyrics than "Ooh, she stares at the stairs...there are many things to stare at these days."

I have nothing against artists who "bare their soul" in their music; actually, I welcome it. But it has to be good, which is something WISYA is not.

And it's very easy for someone on the outside to be dismissive of those problems.
Maybe it's because she's rich and famous, and, therefore, in the eyes of the world doesn't have a right to be unhappy. Or, God forbid, sing about it.

It's also very easy for people to dismiss criticism by saying that they just simply don't understand the problems of others, or just don't care. But that simplifies the whole argument and doesn't serve either side very well. ;)

No one can understand the problems of Miss Nicks because she's rich and famous? How ludicrous. She has every right to sing about her unhappiness, which is what she does in many a song. But when there's a difference in quality, people are going to call it out no matter how beloved the song is by someone else. WISYA is just unbearable for a multitude of reasons, the major ones being her voice on it, the lyrics, and the maudlin music.

You love it, bless your heart, I hate it. End of story. :wavey:

No. Romantic longing and yearning are the easiest things to convey in a song. As is anger, because it's viewed as empowering.

But the expression of depression and despondency is often greeted with hostility, or, at the very least, disinterest, because of the level of vulnerability... which is viewed as a weakness (or a downer).

Simple observation in social settings bears this out: People are typically far more willing to rally around you when you're angry or in the middle of a confrontational situation... but sit around and cry sometime, or talk about being unhappy or lonely, and see how many people sit there with you for an extended period of time.

Again, we disagree. Any topic is easy to convey in a song, it just has to be done by the right person and has to fall into the right hands to have a good effect. You like how she conveys her emotions in WISYA, I find it rather boring and pathetic.

I imagine you'd tell Billie Holliday to find a good vocal instructor, too. :distress:

Comparing Billie Holliday and Stevie Nicks now? Wow, man. Just...wow.

Stevie could take a few lessons from Queen Holliday on how to make such an intimate song so captivating and universal. If Holliday had gotten her hands on WISYA, I suspect it would be a masterpiece.

[Johnny Stew]

Everything about it is cartoonish, from the Popeye voices to the music. The extreme disparity between the verses and the chorus especially add to that; one minute your listening to a man singing in a rather beautiful manner, but then you notice the lyrics. Then the song launches into exercises in VSO manipulation and it continues back and forth.

The feel of the song fits within the feel of OOTC material, but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because it's cartoonish does not mean that it isn't good or that Lindsey would've thrown it together in a half-assed manner, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

In my opinion the song certainly isn't bad or half-assed... but "cartoonish," to me, implies buffoonery.
And I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything "cartoonish" about a song that features a soulful classical guitar solo, gently sung vocals and a vibe of melancholy.
I think the parts of the song that you're deeming "cartoonish," are simply there because of the time-period in which the song was recorded. As I said, it's pure '80s... and I don't think Lindsey was poking fun at himself OR that particular sound.


I might take the song more seriously if she didn't say "Wazzamattababay?" three million times and if she could write better lyrics than "Ooh, she stares at the stairs...there are many things to stare at these days."

I'm quite fond of the alliteration in that line.
And, again, I feel that line is important in expressing her sense of ennui.


I have nothing against artists who "bare their soul" in their music; actually, I welcome it. But it has to be good, which is something WISYA is not.

It's also very easy for people to dismiss criticism by saying that they just simply don't understand the problems of others, or just don't care. But that simplifies the whole argument and doesn't serve either side very well. ;)

No one can understand the problems of Miss Nicks because she's rich and famous? How ludicrous. She has every right to sing about her unhappiness, which is what she does in many a song. But when there's a difference in quality, people are going to call it out no matter how beloved the song is by someone else. WISYA is just unbearable for a multitude of reasons, the major ones being her voice on it, the lyrics, and the maudlin music.

I broached the subject of her fame and fortune, and their potential to cause listeners to have a cynical view of certain songs, based on your past comments. You seemed to have a rather disdainful opinion of her singing about those particular problems, citing lyrics such as "I talked to my famous friend last night," and "I sing for the things that money can't buy me," as unrelatable.


Comparing Billie Holliday and Stevie Nicks now? Wow, man. Just...wow.

Stevie could take a few lessons from Queen Holliday on how to make such an intimate song so captivating and universal. If Holliday had gotten her hands on WISYA, I suspect it would be a masterpiece.

Billie Holliday wasn't a songwriter nor a musician... and you've stated that part of what makes "WISYA" so rotten to you, is the "lazy songwriting" and "maudlin music."
So, am I to assume that you feel it could have become a masterpiece in Billie's hands, solely on the strength of her singing?
If so, does that then imply that it could have been a masterpiece in your opinion, if Stevie had sung it in a way in which you approve? ;)

You love it, bless your heart, I hate it. End of story. :wavey:

Ah, if only it were the end of the story... but it seems to be the one song we keep coming back to again and again.
In fact, you mention "When I See You Again" far more than I ever do. :p ;)

[darklinensuit]

To be honest, I think Lindsey sounds strained in WISYA. :sorry:

No need for you to apologize, sorry for thinking you were the one who had said that.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

That's how I feel about WISYA. :laugh:

No way. WISYA does not work as an instrumental, IMO. :)

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

but really lyrics are the least important component to a great song.

I'm not knocking an opinion you're entitled to, but for the record, many of us care a lot more than that about lyrics.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

:laugh:

What's written in the middle of the Ben & Jerry's ice cream pic?

:shrug: I've always torn through the carton too quickly to notice.

- Jake

[dissention]

In my opinion the song certainly isn't bad or half-assed... but "cartoonish," to me, implies buffoonery.
And I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything "cartoonish" about a song that features a soulful classical guitar solo, gently sung vocals and a vibe of melancholy.
I think the parts of the song that you're deeming "cartoonish," are simply there because of the time-period in which the song was recorded. As I said, it's pure '80s... and I don't think Lindsey was poking fun at himself OR that particular sound.

I think he was. He took a sound that was very popular in the 80s and used it to over-the-top effect, which I suspect was his intention all along.

I broached the subject of her fame and fortune, and their potential to cause listeners to have a cynical view of certain songs, based on your past comments. You seemed to have a rather disdainful opinion of her singing about those particular problems, citing lyrics such as "I talked to my famous friend last night," and "I sing for the things that money can't buy me," as unrelatable.

The thing with those types of songs is that they'll never reach a large audience, no matter how good or bad they are. It's not that she doesn't have a right to sing those lines, she does. Hell, they might be good in different songs than the final result. But when I critique Stevie's lyrics, I critique them based on two things. One, how they flow together, and two, how they effect me emotionally. Hearing her sing "I talked ot my famous friend last night" doesn't elicit much response from me, but then again, that whole song doesn't do anything for me. As far as "I Sing For the Things," I don't find it unrelatable per se, I just find the message of satisfying yourself in ways unrelated to money to be bogged by down by an "I'll do anything for you, baby" vibe, grating singing, and a tempo that's too slow. I can overlook those shortcomings, though, when I listen to the upbeat outtake that's out there; I quite enjoy it.

Again, I have no problem with her singing about her depression and unhappiness. "Storms" is my favorite song and that thing reads like a goddamned suicide note. :laugh: But sometimes I feel that Stevie can't see past herself in some songs and the result is that a select few of her songs become exercises in ego stroking.

Billie Holliday wasn't a songwriter nor a musician... and you've stated that part of what makes "WISYA" so rotten to you, is the "lazy songwriting" and "maudlin music."
So, am I to assume that you feel it could have become a masterpiece in Billie's hands, solely on the strength of her singing?
If so, does that then imply that it could have been a masterpiece in your opinion, if Stevie had sung it in a way in which you approve? ;)

Yup, if Stevie had actually sung the song and not droned on like a tone-deaf, first semester music student...I might have liked it. If I can overlook the shortcomings of ISFTF when I listen to the upbeat version, I probably could have overlooked the MANY shortcomings of that particular song if it was simply listenable.

As for Billie, listen to some of her stuff. She chose some pretty awful songs to record, but it were her interpretations and singing that saved the truly wretched ones. She could drive home a songs message like it was nobodys business. Even if the song itself was forgettable, her take on it would be so breathtaking that you couldn't help but be wrapped up in her voice and the message she was conveying.

Ah, if only it were the end of the story... but it seems to be the one song we keep coming back to again and again.
In fact, you mention "When I See You Again" far more than I ever do. :p ;)

Hell, you've got me there. But if it wasn't so wretched and mind-numbingly awful, I wouldn't have to bring it up. :p :laugh:

[dissention]

No way. WISYA does not work as an instrumental, IMO. :)

- Jake

Oh yeah, I agree. But if given the chance to hear only music and not Stevie on that song, I'd choose the music. :)

[darklinensuit]

Oh yeah, I agree. But if given the chance to hear only music and not Stevie on that song, I'd choose the music. :)

Well, that's an improvement. At least you're admitting the song is music finally.

- Jake

[dissention]

Well, that's an improvement. At least you're admitting the song is music finally.

- Jake

:lol: Don't push it!

[face of glass]

I completely disagree that it was "intentionally cartoonish."
I suppose this all depends on your definition of 'cartoonish'. I personally think that Lindsey has attempted for such an effect in certain songs throughout his career since Tusk.
In fact, I might as well say that every time he uses a VSO in order to sound cartoonish (intentionally exaggerated, or even a tad inhuman, that is), he is trying to insert some sort of humour, or at least some sort of distance into the track. This does not refer to things like the female grunts of the studio "Big Love", which sound very 'human' and not all that exaggerated, after all.
If Lindsey had meant it to be cartoonish, I don't believe he would have wasted such a beautiful and intricate classical guitar line on it, nor sung the verses in such a gentle way.
What bothers me in this part of your post is the suggestion that it is a "waste" to put some sophistication and nuances into a tune that's supposed to be "lightweight" and superficial. This, of course, comes from someone who thinks the lightweight is just as valuable as the "deeper, serious" emotions.
Why would it be a waste anyway? Should every piece of humour that he does be as obviously cartoonish, straightforward and simple in instrumentation (a word Lindsey has used himself when discussing the song) as "Bwana"?
As for his vocal being particularly gentle in "Family Man", I also have to note that it's a way of singing he hardly uses elsewhere. In fact, only "Oh Diane" has a similar vocal on it, and I've never taken that one as a serious confessional piece either.
I do not understand why the song should have a constant stream of humour anyway. If he identifies with the topic (which he does, as I believe [nevermind the poor lyrics], and remember that it shouldn't prevent him from making fun of it as well) then he most likely won't ridicule it all the time.
Plus, the song is a descendent of some the stuff on 'Go Insane,' and a precursor to some of the stuff on 'Out Of The Cradle'... and I don't believe any of those songs were meant to be "intentionally cartoonish," either.
Ah yes, the supposed 'serious' period before the slight throwbacks to Law And Order with the Gift Of Screws material. How could Lindsey have anything so obviously humorous in the middle of it? ;)
May the albums feel serious to you, I certainly do not view them entirely as being such. Not with the exaggeration of the various vocals in the title track of "Go Insane" or the freakish chanting in "I Must Go" (the call-and-answer of "hey little girl, leave the little drug alone", for instance).
Neither is OOTC devoid of humour in the same department, especially when one of the first things that greets us on the album is the chorus of "Don't Look Down". And "Young Mister Rockcock!" is another cartoonish shot as well.

So yes, I think that when he uses the VSO in the ways I stated above I think he has an obvious sense of humour/intellectual distance put into some of the songs.
You can already hear it in "Walk A Thin Line" and the like, with that middle section of "monks chanting in a temple" (as I prefer to put it). There's another song with "a certain melancholic vibe" that has similar tactics in use.
Law And Order and Mirage have all this in obivious use throughout, and it affects Chris' and Stevie's material as well ("Hold Me", for instance).
Of course they are being used on SYW as well ("Illume"! How dares he! ;)), and once again in places where you wouldn't expect them to appear ("Say Goodbye"). And a new trick is revealed from his sleeve when he distorts the chorus of "Come" to absurd heights. Since that song is, in my belief, a parody on the dominant and possessive male tendencies, it is very appropriate to use them there.
And none of this ever prevents him from directly communicating to us and poking some fun at himself at the same time. That's what the sonic painter (no matter how bad Mari may feel about the constant overuse of this :p) is trying to do, he is trying to cross those various streams of emotions together in the same space for a moment.
I think the parts of the song that you're deeming "cartoonish," are simply there because of the time-period in which the song was recorded.
As I stated above, this is not just a typical '80s thing; he has similar attempts at humour elsewhere too.
The song's lyric is a no-brainer, an inobtrusive thing. The song also has a latin/flamenco/Spanish/whatever (those are the various descriptions I've seen) guitar, the tone of which is similarly inobtrusive. So yes, it could be passed off as another piece of muzak to be played while you're making love, if it weren't for those voices. You do not find them humorous, so be it. But they definitely question the whole thing at least.
But the expression of depression and despondency...
Again, I haven't seen any other people but hardcore fans thinking of "When I See You Again" being 'that kind of song'.
For me the depression in "When I See You Again" isn't obvious at all, except for one line: "and she stares at the stairs, ooh there are many things to stare at these days". That's something that fits the usual routine of a depressed person; there's nothing that inspires the person, he/she can only stare. In any way, that line is still possibly too vague for many.
After all, we're speaking of her mature period here, the time when she settled down after years of excesses and got "subtler".
So it is only natural that the depression in "When I See You Again" isn't too obvious, and isn't particularly off-putting either. I can't see the "depression" being the reason for its failure to be recognized as a standard of "Landslidian" proportions because the song could be just another Rumours drama thing for many.
But I'm not going to comment on its quality yet again. It can be a moving song definitely, but that can be said for every Stevie song because of her constant sincerity.
For me it's a song that underlines the one obvious flaw in Stevie Nicks' music for me, her constant seriousness. It's at such a level that it is almost, *gasp*, inhuman. Thank God for her sense of humour in interviews and that she doesn't think of herself too highly.

But then being hugely diverse in music or emotions has never been Stevie's forte.
She does what she knows and feels is the best for her and by gum, it can work often.

The reason why I, too, like to discuss "WISYA" is because I feel the only real attraction in it that comes from Stevie is the vocal. I am not fond of the songwriting, it isn't up to the freshness of the past and there is very little of some of the regained rhythmic sensibilities that she started acquiring back during the making of TISL.
But that's that. No more beating this horse, at least in this thread.
In fact, you mention "When I See You Again" far more than I ever do.
No one can ever ignore "Family Man" either. Hate it through the bottom of your guts but it won't go away. It's out to get you! ;)

[face of glass]

I'm not knocking an opinion you're entitled to, but for the record, many of us care a lot more than that about lyrics.
Lindsey Buckingham's lyrics should not be analysed on their own, without the music, unless one is trying to get away from his original intention.
How many of you would care for some of Stevie's lyrics anyway, if it wasn't for the way she sings them? Or, for that matter, the life she's lived. I'm not saying her lyrics are no good when compared to the best of the best in rock music, all I'm saying is that I do not listen to rock music because of its literal content, I listen to it because of the combination of that with the music. Because, frankly, has any rock musician come up with a truly original lyric idea on their own?

[Johnny Stew]

I think he was. He took a sound that was very popular in the 80s and used it to over-the-top effect, which I suspect was his intention all along.

If 'Go Insane' and his production on 'Tango In The Night' weren't so immersed in the '80s style, maybe I'd agree with your opinion.
It was a popular style that Lindsey was exploring and experimenting with... I don't see it as him attempting to go over-the-top or to be cartoonish. And while I believe he does infuse lightheartedness into his songs, I don't believe he has ever been intentionally garish, and I certainly don't think he was lampooning '80s music.


As for Billie, listen to some of her stuff. She chose some pretty awful songs to record, but it were her interpretations and singing that saved the truly wretched ones. She could drive home a songs message like it was nobodys business. Even if the song itself was forgettable, her take on it would be so breathtaking that you couldn't help but be wrapped up in her voice and the message she was conveying.

Well, that's how I feel about Stevie... even when the song is less-than-stellar ("Docklands," "Desert Angel"), that voice draws me in and blows me away.

But "When I See You Again" isn't one of those less-than-stellar songs for me... it's pretty dang close to perfection. :)

[Johnny Stew]

I suppose this all depends on your definition of 'cartoonish'. I personally think that Lindsey has attempted for such an effect in certain songs throughout his career since Tusk.
In fact, I might as well say that every time he uses a VSO in order to sound cartoonish (intentionally exaggerated, or even a tad inhuman, that is), he is trying to insert some sort of humour, or at least some sort of distance into the track.

What bothers me in this part of your post is the suggestion that it is a "waste" to put some sophistication and nuances into a tune that's supposed to be "lightweight" and superficial. This, of course, comes from someone who thinks the lightweight is just as valuable as the "deeper, serious" emotions.
Why would it be a waste anyway? Should every piece of humour that he does be as obviously cartoonish, straightforward and simple in instrumentation (a word Lindsey has used himself when discussing the song) as "Bwana"?

I do not understand why the song should have a constant stream of humour anyway. If he identifies with the topic (which he does, as I believe [nevermind the poor lyrics], and remember that it shouldn't prevent him from making fun of it as well) then he most likely won't ridicule it all the time.

Ah yes, the supposed 'serious' period before the slight throwbacks to Law And Order with the Gift Of Screws material. How could Lindsey have anything so obviously humorous in the middle of it? ;)
May the albums feel serious to you, I certainly do not view them entirely as being such. Not with the exaggeration of the various vocals in the title track of "Go Insane" or the freakish chanting in "I Must Go" (the call-and-answer of "hey little girl, leave the little drug alone", for instance).
Neither is OOTC devoid of humour in the same department, especially when one of the first things that greets us on the album is the chorus of "Don't Look Down". And "Young Mister Rockcock!" is another cartoonish shot as well.

Don't get me wrong, Gaius... as I just said above, I do believe Lindsey has often infused his songs with a peppy lightheartedness. I'd be blind not to see that.
I just don't believe he's ever tried to be cartoonish... which, in my opinion, is music that is garish and purposefully ridiculous (think "Weird" Al Yankovic).

And if someone is laughing at one of his songs because of his use of a VSO or a toy piano, I somehow don't think Lindsey would take that as a compliment.

But hey, maybe I'm completely wrong. :shrug:

[Hawkeye]

maybe I'm completely wrong.

yeah but whos to say whats right? :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

yeah but whos to say whats right? :laugh:

I need somebody to help me through the night! ;)

[face of glass]

I just don't believe he's ever tried to be cartoonish... which, in my opinion, is music that is garish and purposefully ridiculous (think "Weird" Al Yankovic).
I don't know what you think of the voices in "Family Man" then. Do you think they're another example of Lindsey running along with the experiments and the new toys of the '80s? You once spoke of him getting lost in chasing a particular sound and "losing the heart of the song" (again, I don't think one has to take everything he does in terms of 'songs', they could also be taken in terms of aural collages), so is this another example of it?
Musical humour has existed since the beginning of music, obviously. In classical music, for instance, it was almost without exceptions conveyed through the notation (I remember Leonard Bernstein lecturing on TV on a particular Handel piece; the composer reused a quiet snippet from an earlier part of the piece in order to lead people into believing it's the same theme again, but instead followed it with a BANG). When the electric instruments started appearing (leading to the arrival of rock music), it opened a lot of new possibilities for this too.

My belief is that Lindsey has never experimented just for experiments' sake on a finished product. He may have stacks of tapes of such things, like him farting in the microphone, lying around but no, I don't think he ever uses those on finalized products, and definitely not because he just wants to appear "weird and unusual".
It can all be done with a purpose, the same way Stevie can labour on a particular lyric. Whatever the purpose is, however, depends on the listener. We're all entitled to believe what we want, of course.
And if someone is laughing at one of his songs because of his use of a VSO...
Like I said above, I do not think he always uses the VSO in order to create a humorous effect, but he certainly can do it here and there, especially when he makes these exaggerated voices, just like people doing the voiceovers for cartoons. That's what he is doing in there.
Of course, it can also be seen as people making funny voices in everyday life, a thing that is often seen as childish.
And like I said, the childish humour in "Family Man" is tremendously necessary so that the piece won't seem too serious. And with that lyric, it definitely should not seem as such. :)
Does it make the entire piece cartoonish? No, but I stated that above. Does it take away from the seriousness of the delivery? Yes. Does it prevent one from enjoying the OOTC-level sophistication in the layering of the track? No.
...or a toy piano...
I <3 toy instruments. Hear Talk Talk's "It's Getting Late In The Evening" for a heartbreaking use of them.
But hey, maybe I'm completely wrong.
Johnny, I do not write what I write in order to make people understand "the true, deep-reaching artistry of Lindsey Buckingham" or whatever. I'm just as much in the middle of a dark cave as others are in this matter. Only Lindsey knows what he's trying to achieve in his pieces, and I bet that sometimes even he doesn't know what he's trying to do (see a particular quote at MadnessFades.net).
I have a passionate connection to music and I try to desperately put that into words, often failing (Frank Zappa said it's like using dancing to describe architecture). Some people here are drawn to the lyrical content (in a delivered form, possibly) the same way I'm drawn to the musical one.
I think musical content can be analysed in a somewhat similar way to the lyrical analysis; a particular sound might not be there just because 'it sounds funny', for example.
In Lindsey Buckingham's work I have constantly found lots of things to analyse, while still retaining the emotional connection to it.
I don't think the analysis can increase the enjoyment of something, or make one like a piece more though. It's still through the emotions that we connect to something, through those a piece will either rise or fall in our eyes.
Enough fooling around now for me. :)

[GODDESS6]

i was gonna add 2 this but as i scrolled down & read all u guys posts, it seems u have covered it all!~ BRAVO!!!~

brightest stevie blessings~
jill :blob1: :p :blob1: