Previously Unknown/Undocu_mented pre-Fleetwood Mac Single!!!!!

[jeffretro]

While searching for obscure 60's/early 70's single to burn I came across a record on the Karma Records label out of the Bay Area pairing a rock version of "What The World Needs Now" with a very cool garage pop track called "You Don't Get Young Anymore" by a group listed as Sincerely, San Jose on the label. While trying to put a year to the single I ran a Google search on the composer of the B-side, Javier Pacheco. Knowledgeable Mac/Buckingham/Nicks fans can probably already see where this is headed. J

Of course the Google search led to The Penguin Javier Pacheco Q&A Session at http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/javierpacheco_qa1.htm. It became clear that the single I had was a legitimate release of two of the three Fritz tracks recorded during a demo session in San Mateo in 1968 with Lindsey singing the lead on both (the info is in Section Three of the Q&A mentioned above; the third, unreleased track is "Wondering Why" with a Stevie lead vocal). Going back and relistening to the single it's clear that it indeed is Fritz with Lindsey and Stevie! As stated before Lindsey sings lead on both songs, and while he obviously sounds younger here, he already has all the vocal inflections that would characterize his later work. And Stevie is clearly audible in the harmonies, especially on "You Don't Get Young Anymore" where she stands out more in the vocal blend.

How did Karma Records - who around the same '68/'69 timeframe also released a now very expensive Northern Soul collectable called "Woman, Love, Thief" by Stemmons Express - get ahold of these tracks? And why was this issued under the name Sincerely, San Jose? Well, whatever the answers, we should be glad they got these tracks out there. The cover of "What The World Needs Now" is about the same tempo as the Jackie DeShannon hit version, but has more of a rock drive to it. But it's the flip side that's the real keeper, a great garage pop track with multiple changes in tempo and feel with cool organ and guitar work throughout (and great ba_ss as well).

I am going to be putting this record up on ebay within the next few days with scans of both labels on the ebay page. And since I realize there's likely to be some skepticism as to the authenticity of this new discovery, I'll also be putting up a web page where you'll be able to download an mp3, 1:38 in length, with excerpts of both sides highlighting Lindsey and Stevie's vocals (it'll be a 64 kbps mono mp3 as the single is mono; this will give it the same sound quality as a 128 kbps stereo mp3 while being easier and quicker to download).

Right now I'm looking at putting these up about 4 PM US Pacific Daylight Time this Sunday (June 13). I'll post here again when it's up.

And good luck in advance to anyone who bids on what might be a new FM Holy Grail item!

Jeffrey Glenn
Burbank, CA

[wondergirl9847]

SOMEONE BID!!! LOL We need to hear these!!!! Lindsey on lead on both, oh crap...there goes my life savings. EEEEEEEE...an mp3 of it!!!!!!!! AAAAAHHHH!!! Thanks Jeffrey!! Oh, and welcome to the Ledge!!

:lol:

[dontlookdown]

Congrats on your investigation.

I'm actually really surprised that it's taken this long for this stuff to see the light of day. I guess we have the internet to thank!

It's pretty clear that this indicates that there is more out there.

Knowing Lindsey and his attention to detail and perfection, you'd think he has all these masters somewhere up in the attic - or at his parents house....

Maybe we'll get a nice boxed set of vintage Buckingham Nicks someday


when our hair is silver and grey.

[wetcamelfood]

So Jeffrey, what are you going to title the auction? :)

John

[sodascouts]

I hope whoever gets this shares it! I have a bad feeling it will get too rich for my blood very quickly. I'll bid on it anyway, lol.

[wetcamelfood]

So Jeffrey, what are you going to title the auction? :)

Oh, and please post a link to the site you'll be creating for this itrem here as well, thanks in advance. :)

John

[jeffretro]

Thanks, dontlookdown.

Let me address a couple of the things you said in your post.

"I'm actually really surprised that it's taken this long for this stuff to see the light of day. I guess we have the internet to thank!"

This single dates from '68/'69, so it saw the light of day back when it was newly (or fairly recently) recorded. How it got released under the name Sincerely, San Jose apparently without the band members knowing it - Javier Pacheco says in the Q&A that he doesn't think anything was commercially released by Fritz - is anybody's guess. Do we know if Fritz had a change in managers during that time period? If so there's always a chance that the original ousted manager sold the masters to Karma Records for cash which he then pocketed (the name "given" to the band kind of sounds like a goodbye salutation from a letter, possibly meaning the original manager's "parting shot"). Anyway, that's only one possible - and I emphasize possible - scenario.

And yes, we do have the internet to thank for me being able to make the connection of Fritz to this single (and as far as I know I'm the first to discover it though the record's been out there for some 3 1/2 decades). Before the internet there wasn't much info on Fritz out there.

"It's pretty clear that this indicates that there is more out there."

Well, we know there's one other song from the same 1968 San Mateo demo session - "Wondering Why" with a Stevie Nicks lead - and Pacheco says he has live tapes of the band. Oh, and there's Stevie's demos from the Fritz period, but those aren't full band recordings. Pacheco doesn't mention any other Fritz sessions in his Q&A, so we really don't know right now if there may be more stuff out there. We know he wrote quite a few songs for the band, and if "You Don't Get Young Anymore" is any indication of the quality then I'd love to hear more too.

"Knowing Lindsey and his attention to detail and perfection, you'd think he has all these masters somewhere up in the attic - or at his parents house...."

I have to say that I don't think this is particularly likely. When this was recorded Lindsey was only 19 years old or so and probably wasn't the perfectionist that he later became. It was probably one of his first, if not the first, times in a studio, and he was probably thrilled just to be there. You have to objectively look at it in perspective with what was going on at the time. Pacheco says these were just demos, and I'll bet he'll be as surprised as anyone to find out that they had been released. As far as Lindsey having the masters now, I'm sure he wasn't thinking about making sure he had the masters so that he'd have them when the box set of his work was compiled. :-) I would think it's more likely that the manager at the time had them.

And then there's the issue of what you mean by masters, because there will be at least three sets of masters - the original multitracks (probably 4- or 8-track, with the vocals being done as overdubs), the mixdown masters (most likely done only in mono, but I'd love to find out that stereo mixdowns were prepared as well!), and the final "mastered" masters from which acetates and records could be cut. It's possible that the multitracks were left at the studio (something The Beach Boys did way too often; when their box set came out back in 1993 they found the 8-track vocal session tape for "California Girls" at Columbia Studios in Hollywood; now it's back in their custody where it belongs. And the 8-track vocal session tape for "Good Vibrations" is currently lost because it was probably left at the same studio and now can't be found, so a true stereo mix of "Good Vibrations" is currently an impossibility). It's also possible the mixdowns were left at the studio and that the only copies the band or manager took were the final "mastered" copies. All pure speculation, but quite possible. Hopefully someone will do a follow-up interview with Javier Pacheco or maybe one of the other members of the band that can shed more light on all of this.

"Maybe we'll get a nice boxed set of vintage Buckingham Nicks someday."

How long have we waited for the Buckingham Nicks album to be issued on CD now?

I'd love to see these Fritz tracks get a legit reissue as part of some historical set, even if it had to be mastered from vinyl (btw, the single I have is in very nice shape). And I'd love to see what Lindsey and Stevie thought of these tracks once they heard them anew. Both tracks enhance their legacy, and we all know that that isn't always the case when you hear early tracks by performers who later became famous.

Jeff

[diamondsnake]

Why don't you just post all the songs on the internet so we can listen to them?

[jeffretro]

The heading is:

Fritz 45 Lindsey Buckingham Stevie Nicks Fleetwood Mac

The item # is 4018778913

The direct link to the item is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4018778913

And the webpage with the mp3 mentioned in the original post is at

http://lostjukebox.tripod.com/ebay.html

Good luck!

Jeff

[seteca]

Excellent stuff! :blob2:

I recognised that final clip from Lindsey's "Behind The Music"....I really like that song!!

By the way thanks for putting this up for auction and setting the starting bid at such a reasonable price.:)

[kristin]

It sounds a little bit Mamas and the Papas-ish. I like it a lot.

Kristin

[EnchantedSLN]

with a very cool garage pop track called "You Don't Get Young Anymore"

Wow, it sounds so... Strawberry Alarm Clock. I half expected to hear Incense & Peppermints ;). Amazing stuff... this would be a fun time to have another Javier Pacheco Q&A! Thank you for the sample.

[shackin'up]

Wow, Lindsey sounds more mature in the low parts than he does now!!! :laugh:

[Jessica Leigh]

lol my first thought was "oh wow... strawberry alarmclock!!!!" then i thought about it a little more... and i hear some partridge family in there too! lmao

[hayley]

Congratulations on your good fortune, Jeff... hahahaha

[JJL11583]

Hey i was trying to download the sample but cant seem to find it on the web page can anyone help? :D

[wondergirl9847]

Burt BachaROCK? What is this, from the Flintstones? LMAO!!

Listening to the clip....OMG!!! This is awesome!! It's so sixties!! Groovy! :laugh:

Here is the link to the mp3. Right click on the name of the song to the right.

http://lostjukebox.tripod.com/ebay.html

[misterbug]

Why don't you just post all the songs on the internet so we can listen to them?
yeah, could you post the entire songs, or not use this board for free advertising?

[glitter_fades]

yeah, could you post the entire songs, or not use this board for free advertising?

I agree about the free advertising. What's up with that? This unverified thing's only worth what hype he can surround it with. Calling all Ledgies! Let's not get crazy, people. If a good fan can win this with a bid close to what his other records are selling for...5-20 bucks...then I'm sure it will be shared. The audio is not verified but it would be worth hearing the whole thing if just for fun. Of course he's not going to post it. So let's just keep our wits and not let this thing get bid up to some crazy amount because it was posted here as a free Ad.

Just a thought...for whatever it's worth.

[golddustwoman77]

Yes, we need someone to get it and share it with all of us on here! :thumbsup: I'm going to bid, but I can see this being quite expensive in the long run. It is at $46.00 with 5 days + left. :distress: Therefore, it probably won't be me. Good luck to all, maybe one of us will luck out. :nod:

[wondergirl9847]

When I checked it the other day, it was 93 bucks. Invalid eh? LOL Alrighty.

[glitter_fades]

somebody says the link is wrong and it's still up there...

[seteca]

It just got sold for $880......!!!!! F*****' hell!!! :eek: :eek:

Somebody must've wanted that pretty bad....!

[estranged4life]

posted on the first page of this thread for the auction is still active...But $880 for an unverified 45???

[wondergirl9847]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4018778913

Now, could you share with the rest of the class? Hehe.

[xdreamsunwindx]

$880.00?!?! Jeeze. They had better share. lol ;).

-Kate

[gldstwmn]

$880.00?!?! Jeeze. They had better share. lol ;).

-Kate

What? For the love of... :confused:

[golden braid]

$880 is ****ing insane! :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

[dissention]

:lol:

And we don't even know if it's even them.

Dumbass.

[javier]

While searching for obscure 60's/early 70's single to burn I came across a record on the Karma Records label out of the Bay Area pairing a rock version of "What The World Needs Now" with a very cool garage pop track called "You Don't Get Young Anymore" by a group listed as Sincerely, San Jose on the label. While trying to put a year to the single I ran a Google search on the composer of the B-side, Javier Pacheco. Knowledgeable Mac/Buckingham/Nicks fans can probably already see where this is headed. J

Of course the Google search led to The Penguin Javier Pacheco Q&A Session at http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/penguin/qa/javierpacheco_qa1.htm. It became clear that the single I had was a legitimate release of two of the three Fritz tracks recorded during a demo session in San Mateo in 1968 with Lindsey singing the lead on both (the info is in Section Three of the Q&A mentioned above; the third, unreleased track is "Wondering Why" with a Stevie lead vocal). Going back and relistening to the single it's clear that it indeed is Fritz with Lindsey and Stevie! As stated before Lindsey sings lead on both songs, and while he obviously sounds younger here, he already has all the vocal inflections that would characterize his later work. And Stevie is clearly audible in the harmonies, especially on "You Don't Get Young Anymore" where she stands out more in the vocal blend.

How did Karma Records - who around the same '68/'69 timeframe also released a now very expensive Northern Soul collectable called "Woman, Love, Thief" by Stemmons Express - get ahold of these tracks? And why was this issued under the name Sincerely, San Jose? Well, whatever the answers, we should be glad they got these tracks out there. The cover of "What The World Needs Now" is about the same tempo as the Jackie DeShannon hit version, but has more of a rock drive to it. But it's the flip side that's the real keeper, a great garage pop track with multiple changes in tempo and feel with cool organ and guitar work throughout (and great ba_ss as well).

I am going to be putting this record up on ebay within the next few days with scans of both labels on the ebay page. And since I realize there's likely to be some skepticism as to the authenticity of this new discovery, I'll also be putting up a web page where you'll be able to download an mp3, 1:38 in length, with excerpts of both sides highlighting Lindsey and Stevie's vocals (it'll be a 64 kbps mono mp3 as the single is mono; this will give it the same sound quality as a 128 kbps stereo mp3 while being easier and quicker to download).

Right now I'm looking at putting these up about 4 PM US Pacific Daylight Time this Sunday (June 13). I'll post here again when it's up.

And good luck in advance to anyone who bids on what might be a new FM Holy Grail item!

Jeffrey Glenn
Burbank, CA
Dear Jeffrey,

I am interested to know more about Karma Records and where they are situated. Do you have an address? How do you know they are based in the Bay Area? You see, I am Javier Pacheco and that record is a bootleg. The music on it was never meant to be released to the public. Karma has no authority whatsoever to make money off my intellectual property. Didn't you wonder why a label would put out a record and not give the band Fritz its due acknowledgement? Didn't a little red flag wave in your head? Please advise,

Javier Pacheco

[javier]

Dear Jeffrey,
I just wanted you to know that I had another person's 45 rpm record taken off Ebay because I proved to them that the record in question is bogus. I suggest you take your MP3s and other samples off the web, else you'll be hearing from my attorney as well. Repeat--that is a pirate record--Karma had no authority to release our music.
Please comply.

Javier Pacheco

[Jessica Leigh]

woo hoo!!!!!!!

Go Javi !!!!!!!

[Mari]

Selling a song for 800 dollars is criminal..
but buying one for 800 dollars?! Could never imagine doing something like that.

[trackaghost]

Uh oh, Jeffrey's in trouble now! But at least we got to hear some Fritz snippets and they sounded good too.
It seems a shame that Fritz's material hasn't got an official release. But then considering the Buckingham Nicks album isn't even on CD yet, it isn't really a surprise.

[EnchantedSLN]

It seems a shame that Fritz's material hasn't got an official release.

Agreed! I remember a couple years back, Javier posted that he had seen Stevie at Shoreline and discussed the possibility of releasing some Fritz music with her. He said he felt confident that this would happen. Not to steer this away from his original post, but Javier, if you're reading and you've got a moment, can you tell us if this idea was ever explored any further? I do hope these things will surface one day :distress:.

[seeker007nmss]

Dear Jeffrey,
I just wanted you to know that I had another person's 45 rpm record taken off Ebay because I proved to them that the record in question is bogus. I suggest you take your MP3s and other samples off the web, else you'll be hearing from my attorney as well. Repeat--that is a pirate record--Karma had no authority to release our music.
Please comply.

Javier Pacheco


I was just wondering, since there is so much interest, have you considered issuing this material? With the technology these days, you could produce just enough product that is needed and reduce costs. I am sure there is more than enough interest to make the project viable.

Just a thought.

seeker007nmss

[javier]

woo hoo!!!!!!!

Go Javi !!!!!!!
Yup, Fritz is coming. Y'all patient S&L fans will have a treat soon enough. I sent Marty a Sampler of Fritz--the real enchilada, no Sincerely Bango Bay or none of that monkey business. You'll be hearing some earlier and later stuff as soon as Martin puts it up.

[javier]

We had a wonderful heartfelt Fritz reunion at the Concord Pavilion show June 27th. I have sent Marty a couple of pics of us backstage in Stevie's room. Does all this good vibe mean we are going to do a creative project together? I did pose the question to Lindsey and I believe he is seriously considering it. We talked about dubbing vocals to the old recordings, but at some juncture I think the possibility of us recording the material fresh is also an option. We have all kept up our chops, and no one is interred in a sanitorium. Brian intends to get together and jam w/Linds in August, after he's had a chance to rest from the FM 2004 tour. All I can say to y'all is what Bob told me, who has talked at greater length with L&S. His words are "It ain't over yet." Let's keep our fingers crossed. In the meantime, don't make the bootleggers rich.

Javier

[javier]

Remember, this was our first visit to a recording studio, late Fall of 1967. Lindsey, Bob and I had graduated from M-A High School in June of 1967. In the latter part of summer we met Stevie and Brian Kane. So Brian and Stevie had just barely been in the group a few months. The material and the sound changes quite a bit after 1968. By '69 we're doing longer songs, more instrumentation, more sophistication, etc.

[javier]

How do you figure "that the single I had was a legitimate release" if it doesn't even mention the true ensemble (Fritz) that did this? Why would a band (or a label, in this case) release a record under an obscure name if it wasn't trying to hide something? WHERE DID YOU GET THIS? Now that you know that it is a bootleg, why aren't you doing the right thing?

[Jessica Leigh]

Yup, Fritz is coming. Y'all patient S&L fans will have a treat soon enough. I sent Marty a Sampler of Fritz--the real enchilada, no Sincerely Bango Bay or none of that monkey business. You'll be hearing some earlier and later stuff as soon as Martin puts it up.


Wow... cool deal.... you know, Javi (do you mind if i call you that? i'll stop if you want) I think it is actually a good idea for you to post them where fans can access them... i mean... at this point, we just want to HEAR them... that is why some schmuck paid amost 900 bucks for that 45. If you post them where people can hear them you will basically eliminate a$$holes making bank off of stuff like this.... and you know as soon as you get together an official release for stores, we will all be rushing out to buy it anyway, whether we heard a download or not... so posting it now won't take away from future profits... you know? what do you think?

[tynan88]

Thanks Javier,
You have made so many good points, you are by far one of the good guys out there, don't let us put you under any pressure though :lol: We really appreciate you getting involved in this and just shedding some light on the situation. It's good to know there are some good, honest people out there who are just willing to give us the facts :thumbsup:

Tynan

[nodmod]

We had a wonderful heartfelt Fritz reunion at the Concord Pavilion show June 27th. I have sent Marty a couple of pics of us backstage in Stevie's room. Does all this good vibe mean we are going to do a creative project together? I did pose the question to Lindsey and I believe he is seriously considering it. We talked about dubbing vocals to the old recordings, but at some juncture I think the possibility of us recording the material fresh is also an option. We have all kept up our chops, and no one is interred in a sanitorium. Brian intends to get together and jam w/Linds in August, after he's had a chance to rest from the FM 2004 tour. All I can say to y'all is what Bob told me, who has talked at greater length with L&S. His words are "It ain't over yet." Let's keep our fingers crossed. In the meantime, don't make the bootleggers rich.

Javier


Javier, This is fantastic news, have you ever considered putting this material out online at one of new legal download stores like Apple iTunes MusicStore, at least you guys will be getting some money from the sales.

[gldstwmn]

Yup, Fritz is coming. Y'all patient S&L fans will have a treat soon enough. I sent Marty a Sampler of Fritz--the real enchilada, no Sincerely Bango Bay or none of that monkey business. You'll be hearing some earlier and later stuff as soon as Martin puts it up.

:woohoo: Thank you!

[javier]

Its about the integrity of the music and some sensible ethics too. If I'd wanted to cash in on Lindsey and Stevie's fame I would have done this a long time ago. Probably would have made some good money, but its not about the money, it never was. A little voice inside told me to be patient, that perhaps someday we would reunite and re-record or "spruce up" these old recordings. Either way, I preferred to do it with input from my Fritz colleagues. Even though I was the main composer, I didn't want to profit at the exclusion of the rest of the group who worked equally hard on producing this music.
I don't like to do things on the sly or half-done. After so many years, it looks as though the dream may come to pass at last. We've already been together briefly and experienced a lotta love (Concord Pavilion, June 27, 2004). You've had a taste for what we sounded like. More samples will follow, and people will continue to be amazed, I kid you not. Fritz may be reborn.

[wondergirl9847]

Thanks for the updates, Javier!! Terrific news!! Can't wait to see the pics and hear some more Fritz!!!

[Nixxxed]

... perhaps someday we would reunite and re-record or "spruce up" these old recordings...

Just my opinion, but please don't alter the original recordings. I understand that they'll be coming from 35 year-old tapes and that they won't be perfect, and I'm totally fine with that. I want to hear what you guys sounded like THEN, since I've been waiting since the early '80s when I found out that Fritz even existed in the first place.

Sure, re-master them and get the best sound you can, just please don't recreate parts that are missing or overdub parts you don't like today, etc. As a fan, I want to hear the recordings as historical record, not as some attempt for them to be a viable recording in today's market. Just give us music that sounds as good as possible, with extensive liner notes on what's missing or what parts couldn't be saved in the mastering process. Oh yeah, and lots of pictures and written stories from everyone involved on what it was like to be Fritz at that time, playing with all the rock-n-roll legends onstage up and down the Cali coast.

If everyone wants to reunite and jam and record NEW music, or completely re-record the older material as a kind of counterpoint to the original recordings, I'm fine with that too, and I hope you all have all the fun in the world doing so. Again, just please don't alter the originals in any way with new recordings or studio tricks. It would be like re-creating your high school yearbook and substituting a better picture of yourself. :) You guys have nothing to be ashamed of.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Well...I'm definately stoked. This sounds incredibly promising. Javier, thanks so much for filling us in on all of this!!

[Merf]

We had a wonderful heartfelt Fritz reunion at the Concord Pavilion show June 27th. I have sent Marty a couple of pics of us backstage in Stevie's room. Does all this good vibe mean we are going to do a creative project together? I did pose the question to Lindsey and I believe he is seriously considering it. We talked about dubbing vocals to the old recordings, but at some juncture I think the possibility of us recording the material fresh is also an option. We have all kept up our chops, and no one is interred in a sanitorium. Brian intends to get together and jam w/Linds in August, after he's had a chance to rest from the FM 2004 tour. All I can say to y'all is what Bob told me, who has talked at greater length with L&S. His words are "It ain't over yet." Let's keep our fingers crossed. In the meantime, don't make the bootleggers rich.

Javier

:wavey:

Hi Javier! Thanks so much for letting us know... we really do appreciate it, and we are all anticipating whatever you guys have in store for us! :nod: Take care!

[CrystalVisions]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to The Ledge, and just wanted to say hello and that this is such great news about Fritz. I agree though that I would like to hear the recordings as they are, so we can get that glimpse into what the band sounded like all those years ago. And I'm thrilled that Javier got to meet with Lindsey and Stevie and that there may be a reunion of sorts in the future...this is all so exciting, and I can't wait to hear the songs! Thanks, Javier for the info, and hello to everyone. :)

[tynan88]

No pressure Javier but :eek: :blob2:
Thanks for talking to us,

Tynan

[estranged4life]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to The Ledge, and just wanted to say hello and that this is such great news about Fritz. I agree though that I would like to hear the recordings as they are, so we can get that glimpse into what the band sounded like all those years ago. And I'm thrilled that Javier got to meet with Lindsey and Stevie and that there may be a reunion of sorts in the future...this is all so exciting, and I can't wait to hear the songs! Thanks, Javier for the info, and hello to everyone. :)

to the Ledge Claudia...And thanks for the info Javier, Cannot wait to hear the music by Fritz.

[javier]

"You guys have nothing to be ashamed of." Thank you, Nixxxed. I totally agree with you. Marty will also testify. When this material gets out it will completely disprove some pud (engineer) who once chimed that Fritz was a loser. Sorry you've had to wait so long. We ain't gettin' young anymore. Imagine us together again after over thirty years! Will Fritz be resusitated in some form?
Stuff that was originally recorded in the studio wouldn't have to be altered cuz you can hear everything fine. However, in the last live Fritz recording, the mike that was supposed to pick up vocals got turned around. You can hardly make out what is being sung on some songs where the amplification overshadows. This recording contains some the last and most sophisticated Fritz arrangements performed in a couple of long, non-stop sets. I'm sure the fans want to be able to discern--adequately hear the vocals. So these recordings can be either modified or done anew. At this point I can't say which alternative would be easier or more realistic to try.

[javier]

I hadn't read this particular post of yours and I want to respond to it. Thanks for the compliments on my writing. The reason that any Fritzs music had not leaked out before was because I merely sat on it for all these years (I have given my reasons for this elsewhere). After Fritz disbanded, I didn't want to share that music with anyone, and frankly didn't think any other group or singers could have done justice to the songs. That's the good news. The bad news is I had always hoped in the back of my mind that we would reunite and reissue that stuff--I wasn't going to do it on my own, without their blessing.
In 1967 I was the only composer in the band, later, the others would help with the overall arrangement of the music. AS THE MAIN COMPOSER I WOULD KNOW IF WE EVER AUTHORIZED ANY COMMERCIAL RELEASES.
Yes, that was Lindsey's first time in the studio--his voice vibrato is prominent (not shaky), but such is his talent that he handled everything like an experienced pro. If he was nervous it didn't show. Actually, it was the first recording experience for all of us. Everybody did very well--we were well-rehearsed before we went into the studio. That music was never meant to be released to the public. We were considering signing with that company but later changed our minds. Those were demo tracks. I talked to the engineer of that time just last week. He is a straight-forward and honest man, so I have ruled him out. I hadn't thought about our manager. He was sent to jail in the late 80s or early 90s for embezzlement. But I don't think he was with us yet in 1967 (I may be wrong). Let's face it, in the music business its very easy for managers (or anybody who handles money) to squeeze a little extra for themselves and not tell the musicians. This happened on my very first gig (w/Bob Aguirre), as a sophmore in HS playing a set at a roller rink. Guy was trying to make off with my $15--we stopped him before he sped away!!!
There are other recordings from the later periods. I have most of them. The one biggie that has escaped us was a reel-to-reel tape taken off the board at the Fillmore, San Francisco. We did two auditions there and ultimately, four nights with headliners, Chicago. I think the tape was from one of the auditions, perhaps the second one. ITs a great recording, but the chap who initially held that tape has passed away. Name was Preston Hollander. That is a very historic recording--we're talking 1970. That in itself would constitue a whole album. There is enough Fritz material for about three albums--and I'm talking the best--after the "fat" has been trimmed. It represents material from a band that worked together for three and a half years.
I agree with what you say at the end, and it is something I tried to impress upon Lindsey when last we met (June 27, 2004) only not in your words, which more aptly state the case, and that is, that the Fritz material definitely does "enhance their legacy." I told him, "this is a part of you your audience hasn't heard yet." It is an important part. Let's hope my words sink in and reverberate. There was enough artistry and craftsmanship in those songs (1967-71) that I know will be well received by the public. I am hoping Linds will make some time available for this.
But meanwhile, can ya help me find out more about Karma Records, Jeffrey?

Thanks,

Javier Pacheco

[gldstwmn]

Hey Jeffrey,
You made $880 off of this deal. The least you could do is answer the guy's question. You could do it in private through the private mail function on this board. ;) Maybe the person who bought the record could help out with some info? Come on. You know you're out there. :wavey:

[CrystalVisions]

to the Ledge Claudia...

Thank you, Brian! If I haven't said it before, thanks for your fabulous website ~ I really enjoy the photos! And thanks again, Javier, for the info about Fritz. I heard the snippet of 'You Don't Get Young Anymore' and *loved* it ~ it sounds as if you are a great songwriter, and the band sounded wonderful. Can't wait to hear more! :)

[sodascouts]

Hey Jeffrey,
You made $880 off of this deal. The least you could do is answer the guy's question. You could do it in private through the private mail function on this board. ;) Maybe the person who bought the record could help out with some info? Come on. You know you're out there. :wavey:

This guy Jeffrey came on here to advertise and checked back while the auction was active, but I doubt he reads this board at all now. Certainly this is not the place he would choose to discuss matters pertaining to a potential lawsuit. So don't hold your breath, in other words. I assume Javier has used other means to contact him than this message board, because trying to engage him through this medium most probably will not garner much response. Although if he is out there, I encourage him to be honest, because if he truly acted in ignorance he has nothing to be afraid of.

This whole thing is so incredibly odd. Javier is credited as songwriter, yet the band is not credited as the performers? You'd think it would be the other way around, since the name Fritz would be the selling point - and if they're making up one thing, why not make up the other as well? There is no way this could sell without the Fritz name - even Jeffrey had to convince us all this was really Fritz in order to get his money. As you can see from responses on this very thread, not everyone even believed it was, which perhaps kept the price from going even higher (though it certainly went higher than it should have anyway!). Therefore, the way this is done seems to shoot any seller in the foot even as it steals from the performers. Bizarre.

Javier: I'm thrilled you're making this material available. Thank you so much for your willingness to work with the internet fan community in order to get your material heard - and appreciated. :)

[LilyRose]

Thank you Javier, for your efforts in trying to get this music released. I do hope that Lindsey seriously considers what you said to him. I can only imagine that he's not the easiest guy to convince. :laugh:

I can't wait to hear these tracks and see some pictures!

Again, thank you!

Susie

[gldstwmn]

This guy Jeffrey came on here to advertise and checked back while the auction was active, but I doubt he reads this board at all now. Certainly this is not the place he would choose to discuss matters pertaining to a potential lawsuit. So don't hold your breath, in other words.

You never know unless you try. :shrug: Just trying to do my good deed for the day. :angel:

[sodascouts]

You never know unless you try.

lol True. :)

[dissention]

Just trying to do my good deed for the day. :angel:

Ha! But you're a liberal, sweetheart. :xoxo:

[CarneVaca]

Wow, I see some interesting stuff transpired while I was away. Evidently, some posts were deleted as well.

As far as this Fritz material being released, I would rather just get it as is. I'd rather not see any studio tampering at this point.

With all due respect, this material will have limited appeal at this point. FM is a big concert draw, but it's not selling nearly as many records as it once did. Did SYW make platinum yet? So trying to rerecord parts of these songs, be it vocals or whatever, may be quite futile anyway, since the people who are going to buy the stuff will buy it anyway. That's the handfuls of FM crazies like me who frequent this and other band boards. So get it out there, but don't be waiting for Lindsey to make a decision on this. I suspect he's got more on his plate than he can handle, and he is notoriously slow.

I'd rather not see him get distracted with this. He's working on new stuff that I hope he gets out in public before we all croak.

If this Fritz material is good as is, let's have it. I'll buy it.

[CarneVaca]

Also, Javier, if you're still reading, I have a question:

You told The Penguin in 1999 that "Tusk is quite forgettable." Yet Lindsey still calls it his best work. Does he know how you feel about it?

You also said Lindsey and Stevie take very few risks in their music. Is Lindsey's Tusk work not risky in your opinion?

[dissention]

If Tusk is forgettable, I'm voting for Bush, Carne.

[amber]

Also, Javier, if you're still reading, I have a question:

You told The Penguin in 1999 that "Tusk is quite forgettable." Yet Lindsey still calls it his best work. Does he know how you feel about it?

You also said Lindsey and Stevie take very few risks in their music. Is Lindsey's Tusk work not risky in your opinion?
What?! I don't see Javier being superfamous musician guy. Didn't they leave that band cause they were too good for it? Geesh...
AMber

[David]

I am hoping Linds will make some time available for this.Hehheh. . . . Best of luck!

[larg]

WOW! A potential FRITZ REUNION?! How sweet is that?!?!

Judging by your correspondence so far with fans, Javier, I can already assure you that if Fritz did do anything, you'd already be my new favorite group just because you obviously care about fans and about the music. That's the way it should be.

And maybe it would be cool if we got some sort of boxed set... Some old Fritz recordings, some new ones, and Lindsey could even maybe even through in the rest of his GoS stuff just to get it out and move on. I'd buy it-- even if it were $100. Just make sure it's got lots of cool pics!! I wanna see a young babe Stevie and a younger axe-toting Lindsey!! :) :) :)

Larg's a happy boy tonight!!

Adam R.

[CarneVaca]

What?! I don't see Javier being superfamous musician guy. Didn't they leave that band cause they were too good for it? Geesh...
AMber

Hell, I'd just like to see him answer the question, but I'm not sure I've gotten his attention.

Perhaps I should put up a link with a Fritz bootleg!? ;)

[shackin'up]

Hell, I'd just like to see him answer the question, but I'm not sure I've gotten his attention.

Perhaps I should put up a link with a Fritz bootleg!? ;)

Just re-title one of your own gems Fritz and put it up for download. So you didnot hear the Fritz-samples, Carne? Quite impressive. We'll have to give Javier some writing compliments there....

[CarneVaca]

Just re-title one of your own gems Fritz and put it up for download. So you didnot hear the Fritz-samples, Carne? Quite impressive. We'll have to give Javier some writing compliments there....

I heard the cover of What the World Needs Now and whatever that other song was. I'm curious. I'd like to hear more.

But I really don't want to see Lindsey get distracted with this when I'd rather get new material from him. I'll take the stuff as is if Javier is kind enough to make it available.

I am also curious as to what Javier considers taking musical risks since he thinks Lindsey and Stevie really haven't, why he thinks Tusk is forgettable, and whether he has shared those thoughts with Lindsey.

[Rumours]

Wow, I hadn't been keeping up on this thread....shame on me!!!!

Javier, thanks so much for all the info. you have supplied us with. I'm glad for you that you had a wonderful, if brief, reunion with S & L. Count me in as someone who would definitely be interested in Fritz being reborn......let's release that material!!!!!! :blob2: :blob1: And thanks for putting the bug in Lindsey's ear!!!! :D :cool: I hope that it works, too!!!

Stephanie :wavey:

[javier]

Oh Where, oh where is Jeffrey?

[seteca]

Oh Where, oh where is Jeffrey?

Probably on an $880 dollar vacation.....lol..!;)

Javier, have you tried to contact him via his Ebay screen-name? If you click on the link to the auction on the first page of this thread, you'll see his screen-name. If you're an Ebay member, you can just click on it and "ask seller a question".

Thanks a lot for the awesome news regarding the possible reunion!:)

[javier]

Thanks, Seteca, I didn't know he would actually go through with that scheme. Isn't it funny that he hasn't poked back in here? That's chicken-sh*t. HE's on EBAY? I've got an attorney looking into this. We will find out who released this unauthorized stuff.
Got it, Jeffy?

[dissention]

Thanks, Seteca, I didn't know he would actually go through with that scheme. Isn't it funny that he hasn't poked back in here? That's chicken-sh*t. HE's on EBAY? I've got an attorney looking into this. We will find out who released this unauthorized stuff.
Got it, Jeffy?

I'm sure it was an honest mistake on his part. How would he know that it was a bootleg? If I found it at a garage sale, I probably would've hocked it, too. :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

If I understood correctly from Jeffrey's original post, he found the 45 single and, being curious as to its origins, he investigated it.
Finding out that it featured two rare songs performed by Lindsey & Stevie's first band, he posted about the auction here to bring it to the attention of their fans.

I don't believe Jeffrey was actively trying to sell a bootleg, but rather a record that, for all intents and purposes, looked to have been released by a legitimate record company.
I don't know him, and I'm not trying to stick up for him, but I get the feeling that he's not simply a "chicken ****" bootleg seller.

I doubt he's even been back here since the auction closed, being that he probably assumes there's no reason to come back, and is therefore unaware of anything that has been posted in the time since then.

So, Javier, I'd suggest trying to contact Jeffrey thru the website he listed in post #9 of this thread, if you want more information on how he found the 45.
Beyond that, I think the folks who run (ran?) Karma Records are who you really need to get in touch with, as they're the ones who manufactured and released the single. :)

[slnrox]

Thanks, Seteca, I didn't know he would actually go through with that scheme. Isn't it funny that he hasn't poked back in here? That's chicken-sh*t. HE's on EBAY? I've got an attorney looking into this. We will find out who released this unauthorized stuff.
Got it, Jeffy?

Actually, he's not on ebay any more. If you look up his seller name, it says he's no longer registered with ebay.

[CarneVaca]

I'd be curious to find out exactly what his share of the liability here is. Seems to me the people who actually stole the intellectual property and released it without authorization are the real villains.

Also, it strikes me as kind of funny that Lindsey's and Stevie's stuff, which arguably would have a considerably bigger audience, has been stolen lots of times in the past and sold as bootlegs. Have Lindsey and Stevie ever gone to the trouble of suing people over it?

[Johnny Stew]

I'd be curious to find out exactly what his share of the liability here is. Seems to me the people who actually stole the intellectual property and released it without authorization are the real villains.

That's what I'm questioning, too.
Would this Jeffrey guy really be considered liable for selling something that he apparently bought legitimately (didn't he say he found it in a used-record store, or did I misunderstand)?
If a seemingly legitimate record company (in this case, Karma Records), manufactures a product, and someone buys it through legitimate sources, isn't it their property to do with as they please (ie: re-selling it on eBay or elsewhere, if they so desire)?

Certainly Karma Records can (and should) be held accountable for releasing something that never belonged to them in the first place... but once someone else buys a copy of it, I'm not sure that any legal burden should be placed on them if they choose to re-sell it.
But, admittedly, I don't know every nuance of the laws regarding these types of situations. :shrug:

[wondergirl9847]

Um....you might wanna check the Ebay items again.....weird things abound.....:shocked:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4018778913

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4021387277

[seteca]

Um....you might wanna check the Ebay items again.....weird things abound.....:shocked:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4018778913

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4021387277

Hmm....very intriguing.... :shocked:

[dissention]

Um....you might wanna check the Ebay items again.....weird things abound.....:shocked:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4018778913

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4021387277

:laugh:

Jeffrey's found quite a few of 'em. ;) In any case, in order to get them kicked off of eBay, they must be proven to be bootlegs. Javier has the burden of proof, not Jeffrey.

[NowSounds]

I wasn't even aware that the second copy went up....at first I figured that the seller was just a cat who found this rare single, did some research and discovered it was Fritz. But seeing that another one was listed with Buy It Now of $770!!???!!! WTH??!!! Seems like the seller probably knows more than he's letting on............ I wouldn't be surprised if he had more copies.......

The fact that he's made over $1500 on these two discs is disgusting. And the artists aren't getting a cent.....

shame, shame, shame....

[gldstwmn]

Um....you might wanna check the Ebay items again.....weird things abound.....:shocked:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4018778913

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4021387277

Uh oh. Houston, we have a problem. :distress:

[David]

I doubt he's even been back here since the auction closed, being that he probably assumes there's no reason to come back, and is therefore unaware of anything that has been posted in the time since then.
Yeah, I don't think he did much hanging around here. He used the message board to drum up interest in his auction. His auction is long ended. He's history around here . . . probably.

[MacMan]

Item has ended (wetcamelfood is the winner)

The second one was purchased by one of our own here... Doesn't wetcamelfood post on The Ledge... Looks pretty familiar.

[javier]

Well, they're back!! Lost Jukebox and its mighty team of historic instigators--I mean, investigators. What is curious is that the 45 rpm label seems so very primitive by commercial standards. To me it seems rather small-town, 50s. The simple design is meant to give the impression of age, but it somehow doesn't convince me. Its clearly designed to confuse. Diss, I only have to prove that the product was not meant for commercial sale and is therefore unauthorized--I can do that. Doesn't matter whose hands its in. Check to see if they're still there tomorrow. And yes you are right, Cuerna Vaca, ees no big deal. It'd be real nice if they threw me some centavos for a beer. These people can actually apply to the Fed for permission to put this out, and there is little one can do. That's why they use "Sincerely San Jose," to broaden the mystery. I am investigating the matter for my own curiosity, it just seems so coincidental that these alleged 45 "records" would appear now, one after the other.
These dudes are brazen because they know there is little that can be done. But notice Jeffs hasn't been around. Of course people go back to the scenes of their crimes! Who doesn't go back to reread a post they left somewhere? Duh. I know its useless--I'll stop one and another will pop up. The copyright laws of this nation governing protections for composers are actually 1907 statutes that were designed by another compromised body of world leaders who gave sweeping economic control of a composer's livlihood to their mutual benefactors, the publishing houses. That's why our "cut" is always so low. Musicians, composers, libretists, are among the easiest in history to manipulate and rob (legally, of course) thanks to the ethos of those old laws that still currently exist within the upper echelons of the recording industry. We barely have a digital law in effect, thank you,way much damage has been done. For new generations, its been so easy to download stuff. For some there are no ethics involved in the matter. To these ingenuine entrepreneurial folk, they are merely "filling a need." Filling the void.
But the disguise is a little too obvious.
Actually, I am rather amazed that people would really want to plop down that much buck for two numbers.

[javier]

Oh this is funny. I leave you with one last observation. This seller uses the same exact narration in describing revelations about the product as the other previous seller used. Now, isn't that special?

[wetcamelfood]

Item has ended (wetcamelfood is the winner)

The second one was purchased by one of our own here... Doesn't wetcamelfood post on The Ledge... Looks pretty familiar.

Sorry I missed so much, I've been really busy with work, still busy actually but...anyways it was made out to me that the original winner of the auction didn't pay so since I was next in line it was offered to me as a "second chance" so I figured I'd better take it. Um, don't know what else to say though.

John

[dissention]

Sorry I missed so much, I've been really busy with work, still busy actually but...anyways it was made out to me that the original winner of the auction didn't pay so since I was next in line it was offered to me as a "second chance" so I figured I'd better take it. Um, don't know what else to say though.

John

It's nice to know a fellow Massachusetts citizen got it. You could send it my way after you listen to it. :laugh:

Enjoy it, lord knows you spent enough on it! :xoxo:

[dissention]

The only thing I find suspicious about that is, if you look at lostjukebox's feeback, he's left positive feeback for the buyer Ravenspace calling him a "quick payer", who in turn has praised Jeffrey for outstanding service.
If the original winner didn't pay, why has positive feedback been left?
Sounds to me like there are two copies...

Three copies. The old one that he advertised for on this board, and two more under the Lost Jukebox username. ;)

Methinks I smell the pungent aroma of bull****, Jeffrey.

[CarneVaca]

Certainly Karma Records can (and should) be held accountable for releasing something that never belonged to them in the first place... but once someone else buys a copy of it, I'm not sure that any legal burden should be placed on them if they choose to re-sell it.
But, admittedly, I don't know every nuance of the laws regarding these types of situations. :shrug:

Johnny, I've been thinking about this myself. Jason could probably speak to this more intelligently. In this case, the laws that apply to the acceptance of stolen property may apply. Jeffrey may be liable to some extent if after he was informed this was stolen property, he went ahead with selling it anyway. But I'm not sure.

[CarneVaca]

These dudes are brazen because they know there is little that can be done.

Javier, I tend to agree with you that ultimately these guys, whoever they are, are committing a crime. I'd be willing to give the Jeffrey dude the benefit of the doubt to start with, but once he was told the stuff is stolen, and now it appears the material is proliferating, he apparently is no longer an innocent.

Incidentally, whoever is buying it off eBay isn't entirely clean either. If I remember correctly, buying stolen property is a crime as well.

Of course the burden of proof is with Javier, but it doesn't look like he'd have any trouble proving this is his intellectual property anyway.

Profiting from this in this way is certainly unethical. Javier, you should preempt these guys by making the stuff available for free.

[David]

Javier, you should preempt these guys by making the stuff available for free.Kawaboogabah-BINGO

[gldstwmn]

The only thing I find suspicious about that is, if you look at lostjukebox's feeback, he's left positive feeback for the buyer Ravenspace calling him a "quick payer", who in turn has praised Jeffrey for outstanding service.
If the original winner didn't pay, why has positive feedback been left?
Sounds to me like there are two copies...

Or more... I guess my question is, is someone making these now and selling them on ebay as though they were old 45's? Hmmm.

[wondergirl9847]

It's telling Javier (and the rest of Fritz) that the fans want this music....like heroin!!! LOL If people are willing to pay boocoos of cash, then there must be demand for it, right? ;)

[AliP]

Johnny, I've been thinking about this myself. Jason could probably speak to this more intelligently. In this case, the laws that apply to the acceptance of stolen property may apply. Jeffrey may be liable to some extent if after he was informed this was stolen property, he went ahead with selling it anyway. But I'm not sure.


Yes, I had doubts at first that Jeffrey knew this was stolen property. But now, that he is selling another (or possibly many more) then it appears to me that he is no longer a bona fide purchaser (BFP). The buyers on the other hand - assuming they didn't know it was stolen are likely BFPs.

(Note: I'm not a lawyer, one more year of law school for me :] )

[wetcamelfood]

Those that know me know that I don't personally collect outright bootlegs so I can say in all honesty that I had no idea this could be a boot. That's the only reason I paid what I had for it. I wouldn't have bid if I thought it was a boot.

LOL Dissention! :) Well, I'd happily share these tracks with those that wanted to hear them, however, since this thread is now well documented, I guess it's again down to Javier since he's obviously upset about this whole thing. I would prefer to have Marty (or whoever) post them rather than send a clip to 50 people. So if Javier says it's OK then I'll send them to whoever it should be sent to but until then, I guess we must wait to see if Javier is going to release them in a way he deems appropriate. :)

So before anyone tries to e mail me about this, I'm saying here and now that I will not circulate these unless I'm told it's OK by Javier or whoever (just in case these tracks do surface via buyers of the other copies of this single or whatever, I just want it to be known that it's not me they'd be circulating through, OK?). :)

John

[javier]

That's why he hasn't popped his little head in here, because that way he can claim he never saw my posts, therefore he was "not aware" of the true nature of these records. Sounds like he's in on something, not just an innocent collector.

[Tango]

Kawaboogabah-BINGO

LOL! And maybe pass the word along to others. :laugh:

[javier]

Thanks John, I appreciate your forthrightness and honesty. Thanks also for your restraint--I know you can do whatever you want with this property. Personally, I don't understand why you would plop down so much money on this--hope it was worth it for you. These so-called records have only surfaced this year and they are all bogus. No group would put out a record and use a totally different name--that is crazy. The advertising for the three records I have seen is all the same which leads me to really suspect Jeffrey as a front man in this operation. His absence from this site makes him doubly suspect. Give me another week to find out who these folks are.
I will need to release a real Fritz Sampler by the end of this year to at least counter these bad "Karma" bandits. I can't seem to stop or control it anymore. By hook or by crook, the Fritz is coming out!

[javier]

Can you give me this guy's address? What was the forwarding address on the item you received?

[wondergirl9847]

I hope it can all be sorted out and we can hear the music soon. :nod: Just hearing Georgia (which gives me chills) and the snippets that Jeff put up was awesome!!

Javier, John is a serious collector of FM music and a stand up guy. :)

[trackaghost]

Those that know me know that I don't personally collect outright bootlegs so I can say in all honesty that I had no idea this could be a boot. That's the only reason I paid what I had for it. I wouldn't have bid if I thought it was a boot.


I was never in any doubt of your integrity, John :) I know you only collect what has been commercially released. :nod:

It's this Jeffrey who needs to answer some questions! In his first post he makes out he has found the rarest record ever and then suddenly he has two! Doesn't add up. :shocked: How many more of these things are gonna pop up from out of nowhere?

[wetcamelfood]

Thanks trackaghost :) I felt I wanted to say that more because it was posted that I had won one and I didn't want Javier to think I circulated them when the other copies could've been sold and distributed by others via those other auctions or wherever etc. :)

Thanks for understanding Javier, I'll e mail you (what I have of) Jeffrey's details.

I guess it's one of these where these recordings are so rare that as a collector, you almost have to just get it and then hang on to it until it's been proven 100 million percent that it's a boot or the people in question aren't on it or whatever.

I guess these guys did do a good job at making it look authentic as the one I have here had me sold (litterally). Having collected for, well, lets just say, a long time now (blush) the stories about it being released by an underhanded manager under the "Sincerely San Jose" name didn't really surprise me as a legal loophole or the fact that he may have had multiple copies to sell since many dealers I've dealt with before usually (at least used to) obtain their stock wholesale from label warehouse overstock and therefore it was not uncommon for them to be selling more than one copy at a time of a particular item. I also wasn't thinking about this Karma label being more 50's in style, as I figured they maybe were struggling to stay a float by the late 60's (since it seems no one else knows much about them, if they ever existed in the first place that is I mean of course if we gave him the benefit of the doubt), and maybe couldn't afford/didn't have time to make graphic changes to anything by then, even though they may have been deemed "behind the times", but this is where I must wake up and realize times are a changing and they've got all the bases covered on how to dupe folks like me (extra dark blush).

Oh, thanks as well to Christy. :)

John

[Johnny Stew]

Javier, John is a serious collector of FM music and a stand up guy. :)

I'd also be more than happy to vouch for John. :nod: :)

I was trying to give this Jeffrey guy the benefit of the doubt, but it's looking increasingly suspicious.
Perhaps he bought several copies? Or when the first one sold for as much as it did, he returned to wherever he bought it, and snatched up any remaining copies?
Those are possibilities, I suppose, but it all smells VERY fishy now. :(

[wondergirl9847]

...is that Burt Bacharach's name is spelled incorrectly. LMAO!! Who made these 45's, Fred Flintsone? :laugh:

Burt Bacharock?

[seteca]

Oh Where, oh where is Jeffrey?

I just looked at his profile and he's been recorded as "last online" (on The Ledge) on 6th July 2004. So...you can be sure that he's definitely read everything up to post #61 of this thread which is dated as 6th July. Even after that he's still probably reading these newer posts simply having logged out of his account and therefore surfing The Ledge undetected.

[wetcamelfood]

Didn't mean to dig this up again but I wanted to say thanks to Johhny Stew as well. :)

The more I think about this the more it sounds to me like this SSJ single was legally released at some point (though sneakily under the other name to slide through the legal loophole it couldn't have if it had been released under the Fritz name and I do agree with Javier that it stinks that it was apparently released "behind their back" so to speak) but I suppose if someone is making vinyl copies of it and selling them on ebay or wherever as if they're "originals", then that's more of a counterfeit issue more than a "bootleg". Not that I'm a legal expert but I'd think that's more the direct charge if this is what has in fact happened. Just a thought. :)

John

[dissention]

Didn't mean to dig this up again but I wanted to say thanks to Johhny Stew as well. :)

The more I think about this the more it sounds to me like this SSJ single was legally released at some point (though sneakily under the other name to slide through the legal loophole it couldn't have if it had been released under the Fritz name and I do agree with Javier that it stinks that it was apparently released "behind their back" so to speak) but I suppose if someone is making vinyl copies of it and selling them on ebay or wherever as if they're "originals", then that's more of a counterfeit issue more than a "bootleg". Not that I'm a legal expert but I'd think that's more the direct charge if this is what has in fact happened. Just a thought. :)

John

Well, now that you have the single, give us a review! :D :wavey:

In any case, I think Jeffrey's cow has dried up. He won't be getting any more milk from those nipples. ;)

[wetcamelfood]

Well, now that you have the single, give us a review! :D :wavey:

OK well hmm, it's really hard to expand on it really as the rest of the tracks don't vary much from what was on the clips and I'm still learning them myself, I've only had the chance to listen to them a couple of times so far. Hopefully Javier will give the OK (like he has to the other clips that have surfaced on those stickys in ths forum) and then all can hear them in full. :)

John

[javier]

OK well hmm, it's really hard to expand on it really as the rest of the tracks don't vary much from what was on the clips and I'm still learning them myself, I've only had the chance to listen to them a couple of times so far. Hopefully Javier will give the OK (like he has to the other clips that have surfaced on those stickys in ths forum) and then all can hear them in full. :)

John


Au contraire, there are indeed differences. "Georgia" was our first live recording at a high school, summer of '68. Lindsey is on the bass. "You Don't Get Young Anymore" and "What the World Needs Now" were recorded over 6 months earlier in a studio (Fall of '67, barely a few months after Stevie and Brian had joined Fritz), and at that time, since Lindsey knew the songs better than new member Brian, the former is heard on guitar, while Brian played bass. Louisa Joy was a commercial attempt on my part, meant for the Los Angeles commercial "rule" for 3-minute ditties. But the live recordings I have from 1970 are very, very different--long drawn-out parts, more expressive vocals, etc.--very late Sixties "San Francisco era," more bluesy, in the spirit of the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane.

This month I sent Marty some snippets of Fritz era music with the intention of sharing them at this web site. The purpose was to share as well as gauge the response. There are live and studio cuts--"You Don't Get Young" was one of them, therefore, I don't have a problem with you making your copy available but I would advise you not to release the whole piece, or wait 'til Marty makes his edited version available. Pressure him to do so! The Ebay capper certainly showed me that there is interest!

Caution is warranted cuz too many unscrupulous souls might try to make fast mullah with the whole numbers, selling the music elsewhere. I would even advise the same caution with "What the World Needs Now," even though I didn't pen that. I am definitely going to release complete CDs of this live and studio music this year or next. Been holding out to see if there would be a Fritz reunion. Hope doth spring eternal. My colleagues might even help with the distribution, etc., which would be better than if I did everything on my own. Or, there may even be new recordings. After the pleasant encounters of June 27, I am very optimistic. But yes, this stuff is worth your while--people will be astounded!

Javier Pachecoearlier

[wetcamelfood]

OK, um, I think I'll just wait until Marty posts his edits then. Hopefully the full CD's you plan to release is soon as that would be easiest for everyone (and would make eveyone happiest too) I'm sure. :)

When I said "not much different" I just meant between the clips that were posted and the rest of those 2 particular tracks (haven't heard any of the others yet, I plan to go over to those downloads after finishing this post), but even then I admitted that I don't really know them that well myself yet. :)

I had heard about the later Fritz material being more progressive so all of the recordings I think will be VERY interesting listening, can't wait. :)

John

[Oona]

O.K. I am finally coming out of the closet with this.....I am the one with the 45rpm. Well, I am not too proud of what I paid for it, and even less proud of what i have been hearing about it. This item has proven to be something of a curiosity at best, dubious may prove to be a better term for it.
I have yet to actually play it because when i do, I would just assume put that first playing on my hard drive. So I am in need of a little component to do so. I have not yet found the time to run out and get it. I also have yet to read the posts on this item. I thought it best to post this before reading them, I feared I would be up all night addressing them.
I did take a quickie scan after this post and needed to post an edit....I hope I haven't upset Mr. Pacheco too much by the purchase. I can say this...I never intended to sell any copies of the recording from day one. It was just a quirky purchase from a fan, not anyone looking to profit. I have nothing but respect for the work...I just want to hear it. Anything that might lessen my chances of hearing more are right out.

[gldstwmn]

Well, at least we know now that there really are two. And that John was apparently flat out lied to.

[wetcamelfood]

Well, at least we know now that there really are two. And that John was apparently flat out lied to.

Yeah, the stickler I am for originals in my collection, this is upsetting to me knowing this now, thanks for coming forward Oona, I really appreciate your honesty and light you've been able to shed on this and I sure understand what you meant. :)

Javier, I'll help out in any way I can with any counterfeit case you might have going.

JOhn

[PopFortyFive]

Hello,
I'm new here and a HUUUUUGE FM fan!

I was reading about the Sincerely San Jose 45 and came across this thread.

First things first: Jeffrey Glenn passed away last year. He was one of
the most knowledgeable and generous music fans I ever came in contact
with. That sentiment seems to have been shared by everyone else, too:
notlameblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/rip-jeff-glenn.html

It's not surprising that it was Jeff who came across the Sincerely San
Jose 45 and was knowledgeable enough and curious enough to make the
connection to Fritz. He made a series of 240 CDRs of obscure 45s and
gave them away to fellow music fans. I was lucky enough for him to
send me (at his expense) vols. 21 & 22.

It saddened me to see Jeff accused of being a bootlegger. Javier
really showed restraint and respect to not release the Fritz material
all those years when I'm sure there were many opportunities to cash
in. And I understand Javier being upset about this record having been
released without his consent. The only thing is that it's a pre-fame
rip-off record that came out in the very early 70's NOT a post-fame
cash-in bootleg pressed c. 2004.

Here is evidence that the Sincerely San Jose 45 was released around 1970:
This is from Billboard magazine, November 21st, 1970. (http://books.google.com/books?id=tCkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT70&dq=%22sincerely+san+jose%22+karma&hl=en&ei=I-gvTa7YDMfYgQek8uGQCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22sincerely%20san%20jose%22%20karma&f=false)
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/A8tyv2CREfGY-0nVu4z9ZM5rnUJNrDs2iMD7vqaTHG4?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WYNQDTsDaQQ/TTE5TGKwp7I/AAAAAAAAAlg/xNN1rXALX2U/s640/Sincerely%20San%20Jose.jpg" height="464" width="640" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/luissuarez76/Pop45?authkey=Gv1sRgCPe7qLKm4v-MVg&feat=embedwebsite">Pop 45</a></td></tr></table>

Google the label owner's name. He seems to still be around and doesn't
seem to have the greatest reputation. How it came to pass that he
released these two Fritz tracks, I don't know. In his initial posts
Jeff Glenn had a few hypotheses. I doubt we'll get the story from the
horse's mouth.

Luis Suarez

[popville]

Thanks Luis for your due diligence in uncovering what I felt in my heart to be true. It was painful to read of Jeff Glenn's name being dragged through the mud and feeling useless to offer a defense, as he'd since passed away (I not long ago found this thread from a search of the 45 in question). The record collecting world is full of shady characters but Jeff was anything but. I knew Jeff from the Poptopia & International Pop Overthrow music fests in LA, and from a music mailing-list I ran called Audities, and he was generous to a fault. Thank you for not only finding the Billboard article, but for posting it here.

Cheers,

- Michael Coxe
San Jose, CA

[Nikolaj]

It is now 7 years later- I don't recall if I ever read this thread, and now in Feb. 2011, I have read every page and post in it. It's really very interesting.
Mostly, I feel quite bad for Javier, because as little as 7 years ago, Javier was hoping for either a Fritz reunion or the OK from LB&SN to release music he seemed to still love and felt was part of Stevie & Lindsey's legacy.
It is also his legacy, and he didn't have the careers they have had. It seems only fair to him. He wrote that he had 3cds worth of good quality, 'non-filler material' to choose from.
I hope Javier is still alive and well.
How sad that 7 years ago he was holding out hope that his old colleagues might remember how he helped them develop chops that lead to their fame. Sadder still, the feverish focus he had on 2 bootlegs that sold for less than $1600 and it being enough to upset him. He seems like a good man, and must need a nest-egg at this stage of his life.
These posts of his from 7 years ago really are quite heartbreaking, trying to hunt down one person over a bootleg 45.
An arty limited-edition Fritz box set of 3000 copies printed, with the 3 cds of music, reproductions of old concert posters or photos with Javier's liner notes, sold at $70 for the 3 cd set could be a comforting $200,000 for the man, maybe.
It would be more than 'beer money' he wrote of 7 years ago.
I think they'd all be pushing 70 before any court date would be set if there were any objections from the royal court of Buckingham Nicks!
Go for it, Dr. Javier P!
Your turn now, sir.

[CADreaming]

So strange. I had no idea this thread was here but stumbled on "Sincerely San Jose" on an internet search just a couple of days ago. I wondered what it was. I'll have to read through this thread. Would love a Fritz release.