Red Rover, Exposed!

[CarneVaca]

Hearing Red Rover performed live last night preceded by Lindsey's speech finally gelled in my mind the meaning of the song. Lindsey said the song was written from the perspective of gods, not God, sitting up there and looking down on us. He said, "gods, like Zeus." The whole idea is that these Greek gods are looking down on this experiment we call the human race, kind of furrowing their brows and wondering just how it all went so wrong. The gods start to wonder if they should pull the plug.

He then said apologetically that it's a very dark thought.

In listening to his introductory speech, it finally dawned on me: "Red Rover, we've come to take you over." That's the "pulling the plug" part. "What of the quiet ones" is clearly a reference to the folks who think the way Lindsey does and have concluded this experiment has gone terribly wrong.

It really is very political, but he dances around the politics of it by writing it somewhat cryptically.

And I also understand the relationship to "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" now. As you might recall, Lindsey has also said that song was written form the Greek gods' perspective. In both songs, the gods are in their rightful paternal role, manipulating or wondering whether to manipulate their creation, these children called humans. You might recall from your Greek Mythology classes that the gods amused themselves by thinking up challenges and tasks for the humans. Occasionally a human, like Prometheus, would outsmart the gods, but never without retribution.

"Red Rover," I believe, is about hubris. And as such, the gods are figuring out just what to do about it.

"Red Rover" is a very clever, chilling song. As is "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind."

[wondergirl9847]

Cool to hear someone discuss Red Rover besides me. LOL

I always thought it was about death, but I looked at it as Lindsey comforting his mother after the death of his dad. I wrote an interp a long time ago, need to go find it.

*I* apply it to my pain after the death of my grandfather. :(

I remember when Livia asked Lindsey on the phone when he did a radio interview before the SYW tour started. She asked him what RR was about and he told her the Greek god thing. I was floored because I had applied it to death anyways.

It's one of the most interesting, mindblowing songs EVER written, IMO. 9 days till I see him do it live and lose it. :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Christy, don't despair. It is about death. In it, the gods are contemplating just how to handle this hubris. And wiping out the human race is definitely a consideration.

I hope that makes you feel better. ;)

[wondergirl9847]

Thanks, Carne. :)

I'm all about death, for some reason. I love dark stuff, songs, movies, books, etc. I wrote a lot about death in high school and college. LOL

[sodascouts]

Feel free to send any interps to me, lol!

I've heard the Greek Gods spiel before - there was similar intro to it at Soundstage. I can see that applying to about half of the song's lyrics, but the other half are still inexplicible to me, despite this "explanation." Who is the "you"? The first verse - "Why do you come aruond so very much"? Is this Zeus talking to the other gods? If it's humanity, this makes no sense. Come around where? To temples to worship Zeus?!!! Oh, even writing this stuff is making me shake my head. Is the "lips you were kissing" a mockery of the love humanity finds because it is all doomed? And if that's the case, here is much to hear in "Heaven on in Hell."

The second verse can work in the context more easily.... there's more to it then this simplistic Pantheon Politics explanation. The lyrics intrigued me so much that once upon a time when I wrote a letter to Mr. Lindsey Buckingham (and no, he didn't answer it lol) I asked him to give more info on the song sometime during an interview. Well, he didn't do that either. Guess he doesn't take orders from Nancy. ;)

[wondergirl9847]

Is the "lips you were kissing" a mockery of the love humanity finds because it is all doomed? And if that's the case, here is much to hear in "Heaven on in Hell."

I think it's the gods saying that to themselves in sure, a pseudo-mocking tone. Kind of like "Well, well, your loved ones, yeah, they are dead now."

Perhaps, that first verse are the gods talking amongst themselves about us?

"Why do you come around so very much?" - Why do we look down on these people, they are obviously wretched.

"You know it just brings you down, it's just something you can touch." - One god to another perhaps? You get depressed when you look at the world, but you don't want to kill them all because it's something to play with.

"You don't belong here, I guess you never did." - Talking about us, we dont' belong on earth, because we abuse it.

"Whisper murder in your ear, you just keep it so well hid." - The gods whispering to us that they may kill us. The second part is a mystery.

"Anyone at all could see what was missing." - Love, peace, humanity is missing. :(

"Could see you were dying through no one was crying." - The world is going to pot, but nobody cares.

"And the lips you were kissing, night after night, all were bathed in blue, all bathed in white" - Death.

"Red rover, red rover, red rover, we come to take you over." - Take us over to the other side.

"One of the quiet ones one of the few" - We are quiet for not speaking up, standing up for what's right in the world. This is confusing.

"Now fall down onto your knees show us all what you can do." - Prayer for mankind?

"We came around here to see if you were well" - The world, they are checking on us to see if we were being good.

"And there's nothing for you to fear in Heaven or in Hell" - You shouldn't fear Heaven because it's a good place, and you shouldn't fear Hell because if you do right, you won't go there.

Who the frick knows WHAT it means. LOL!!!!

[mylittledemon]

I didn't care for the song all that much when I heard it on Say You Will. But seeing it live changed my perspective. It does have a very dark vibe to it, and Lindsey was very intense when he sang it. I give it two demon thumbs up.

[Sugar]

I GUESS I can hear this in the song, but I always hear it as a "gotta get away from Stevie/FM" song. But who am I to say Linds is lyin'?

Still love the song though!

[BlueGrass]

I gotta chime in on this, even though I don't post here very much, I still read up everday.

Red Rover is my fav song of all time pretty much, it just strikes a certain chord within me, and I can never put my finger right on y.

At first, I associated this song with innocence, and childhood, because Red Rover is a childs game.

Then I thought it was just about some lonely person, who wanted to escape.

Recently, I have really been bought on the idea of Red Rover being almost a suicide song. "You DOn't belong here," "No one was crying" "We come to take you over."

And it is somewhat about dying/suicide and pulling the plug. I guess what Lindsey said makes sense, and there was a good explanation for it now.

I think because the song is so chilling, creepy and mysterious is why I like it so much.

[tynan88]

I always thought RR was about death, to me the second verse was a give away, and to me the first tells of a secret illness??? I dunno really but it's great to hear of something of Lyndsey i've never heard the God's story before.

Tynan

[CarneVaca]

OK, since I brought this up, I am going to give this one a whirl. I like Christy's interpretation because it's fairly close to mine. I believe some of the confusion stemming from Lindsey's use of the second person is because though he says "you," he's not always talking about the same "you."

"Why do you come around?" I see this as one of the gods asking himself, Why do I even bother coming here and looking at these people? Why do I have to keep reminding myself this has all gotten so out of hand?

"You know it just brings you down, it's just something you can touch." The god is still addressing himself here: I come here -- here presumably being some vantage point on Olympus whence he can look down -- even though it brings me down because this is tangible. It's real.

"You don't belong here, I guess you never did." Now, I believe the "you" becomes the human. The internal dialogue becomes a soliloquy directed at the humans. The god is saying, essentially, you wouldn't even be here if I hadn't put you here. Truth is you don't even belong here. And that has never been more obvious now that you're screwing everything up. Alternately, perhaps the god is still addressing himself saying "you don't belong here" in the sense that "you really had no business creating these humans in the first place." Perhaps it's both.

"Whisper murder in your ear, you just keep it so well hid." The god is saying, You know damn well you're murdering thugs, that everything you do is leading to death, but you're pretty good at hiding the actual truth of the matter from yourselves. This is a commentary, I believe, on the powerful people who run things.

"Anyone at all could see what was missing, could see you were dying through no one was crying." Mother earth is dying. The environment is shot to hell but people aren't paying enough attention.

"And the lips you were kissing, night after night, all were bathed in blue, all bathed in white" This is a commentary about humanity's near-constant flirtation with death. The blue and white lips seem to suggest kissing a cadaver. The cadaver may be humanity itself, mother earth or both.

Then at the chorus, the god is again addressing the humans, who after all are the children of the gods: "Red rover, red rover, red rover, we come to take you over." The gods are saying, Since you screwed things up royally, we're going to take you over. This I believe is the "pulling the plug" part.

"One of the quiet ones one of the few." Now the god seems to be appealing to the few among us (clearly myself included ;) ) who realize things have gone terribly wrong: "Now fall down onto your knees show us all what you can do." He's using he kneeling reference, I believe, as an allusion to faith, that which gives you will power to do something. Do you have enough will power to turn this thing around?

"We came around here to see if you were well" Now this one god is acknowledging that "we," all of us gods up here, are checking up on humanity to see how it's holding up.

"Now there's nothing for you to fear in heaven or in hell" This is an interesting line, because it seems to fly in the face of what we are taught: Fear hell because you don't want to end up there. To me, it seems this deity is saying, "Guess what, there is no heaven, there is no hell. So you have nothing to fear there." Implicit in this seems to be the message: Fear not those things; they don't exist. We do, we exist, and guess what? We're going to take you over. We're going to wipe you out.

Anyway, that's more interpretation then I've ever wanted to do. But this particular song is song intriguing that I couldn't help myself.

[Sugar]

I can totally see that. But just for the sake of argument :) here's how I always heard it. of course, I'm not saying anyone's wrong (here on the oh-so-sensitive Ledge), but I'm just throwing this out since I'm the only one who sees it. :laugh: And I agree with the death imagery, I'm just thinking it may be more emotional death rather than actual death.

Why do you come around so very much You know it just brings you down, it's just something you can touch

Clinging to a dead relationship OR His final days with Fleetwood Mac in the 80's. "Something you can touch" being something real and secure, even in a dysfunctional way.

You don't belong here, I guess you never did.

Gee, maybe this is why my relationship with Stevie/FM didn't work out. Maybe also commenting on how different his musical direction was from the rest of the band

Whisper murder in your ear, you just keep it so well hid.

Staying was going to kill him (emotionally, artistically), though he tried to fight it and stay for so long. The imagery is of it being kind of taunting and subtle. Can't you see him working at the mixing board, hating the direction he's going in, thinking "These guys are going to kill me," i.e whispering murder in his ear.

Anyone at all, could see what was missing, Could see you were dyin', though no one was cryin'

Everyone could see he wasn't happy, but no one did anything to alleviate his pain (probably all too busy with their own...)


And the lips you were kissing, night after night, All were bathed in blue, all bathed in white

The lips could be Stevie or FM, but this person/thing you are so intimately involved with night after night is DEAD. DEAD, DEAD, DEAD.

One of the quiet ones, one of the few, Now fall down onto your knees, Show us all what you can do OK--I admit to losing a bit of my momentum here, but here goes! Maybe he's "quiet" because he didn't get the spotlight like Stevie. Maybe he's "one of the few" because HE'S the one who broke away from the machine and all the craziness. But now he's left and he's really on his own now. And now he feels like he needs to get a little humble and prove himself.

We came around here, to see if you were well, And there's nothing for you to fear, in heaven or in hell.

More recently the old gang has gotten touch with him and I just see this as kinda "All 's forgiven".

Red Rover, Red Rover...we come to take you over

The fear of giving in and compromising himself. At one time more about getting away from the crazy drug filled days, but also a bit about giving things up artistically for the name Fleetwood Mac. He says it like a warning, like a low alarm going off. It's cool!

Ah well, far be it from me to know what's going on in Lindsey's head. It's cool, though, that we all dig this song so much! It certainly elicits a visceral response.

[face of glass]

Come on. It's just another song about sex, or in fact, the lack of it. That's what they all write about. ;)

[strandinthewind]

Wow - that was really good Sugar - I can totally see it being about that! :cool:

[mylittledemon]

Well Lindsey's songs can be eccentric at best, and almost impossible to interpret. 95% of songs are about love anyways. I think this is one of those thats in the other 5%.

[shackin'up]

Sugar, that's an impressive read. And I really do think the Gods versus Mankind as a metaphore could adjust with The Muses and the Mac.

It really makes sense for me. Compliments!

[stefan]

Well Lindsey's songs can be eccentric at best, and almost impossible to interpret. 95% of songs are about love anyways. I think this is one of those thats in the other 5%.
I don't think that's right. The majority GOS stuff is not about love. OOTC hasn`t love as main theme also.

[face of glass]

OOTC hasn`t love as main theme also.
But it's about self-love!
Uh, then again, nearly all of his material is narsistic anyway. :rolleyes: But it's narcism that one can identify with. :nod:

[wondergirl9847]

But it's about self-love!

:shocked:

LMAO!! Gives a whole new meaning to Don't Look Down. :laugh:

[dissention]

:shocked:

LMAO!! Gives a whole new meaning to Don't Look Down. :laugh:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :xoxo:

"I'm just sittin' here nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...yeah-ah..."

[Mari]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[shackin'up]

Maybe it's been a main theme for Gift of Screws?

[Sugar]

Glad you guys liked my interp! :) I think I formulated it before the whole Greek Gods explanation came out. God knows the song could be about both or neither, for that matter! Does anyone have any ideas as to when the song was actually written? That might give us a clue too.

Oh, and if I ever start a rock band, I think I need to call it...

The Muses and the Mac.


...or maybe a title for a short story... :)

[Johnny Stew]

Wow, it seems like all Lindsey's songs are about the Greek gods looking down on earth lately. :shocked:
Didn't he say something like that about Peacekeeper too? Or am I imagining things?

I don't remember him saying it about "Peacekeeper," but he definitely said it in regards to "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind."
I've always associated that song with the children lost in the Oklahoma City bombing, for some reason. :(
And I guess maybe my interpretation of it, and Lindsey's own comments about the Gods looking down on us, could still fit together... since I've always thought Lindsey was basically saying, "look what we've done."


Anyway... great interpretations in this thread. :)

[sodascouts]

OK, since I brought this up, I am going to give this one a whirl. I like Christy's interpretation because it's fairly close to mine. I believe some of the confusion stemming from Lindsey's use of the second person is because though he says "you," he's not always talking about the same "you."


This from a man who corrected Stevie on not maintain consistent second-person tense? That would sure be hypocritical of him, to lecture Stevie on something he disregards on his own songs. That's why I hesitate to buy into that, and why I do indeed get confused by it.

[sodascouts]

I can totally see that. But just for the sake of argument :) here's how I always heard it. of course, I'm not saying anyone's wrong (here on the oh-so-sensitive Ledge), but I'm just throwing this out since I'm the only one who sees it. :laugh: And I agree with the death imagery, I'm just thinking it may be more emotional death rather than actual death.

That's an interesting read and one that hadn't occured to me.

P.S. Anyone who is so inclined, feel free to send me these interps as speculations for my site!

[sodascouts]

I don't remember him saying it about "Peacekeeper," but he definitely said it in regards to "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind."


You're right that he said it about SGCYM, but about Peacekeeper as well. I've been keeping track of Peacekeeper comments because it's so controversial.

From the Philadelphia Inquirer 4/15/03: "There are a few songs of mine on the record that imagine if there were gods, in the Greek sense, looking down on the human race, wondering when to pull the plug. 'Peace Keeper' is one of those, and 'Murrow' is another. To me it's strange because 'Peace Keeper' is a very ironic song, but I guess it's one of those songs where [because] you hit the right reference points, it seems to get attached to very specific events. In my mind, it could be applied to a nation and also a love relationship."

So not only Peacekeeper, but MURROW! Folks, this catch all answer cannot be applied so specifically to one song but not others. I frankly think this is purposefully vague so that he doesn't have to tell us what these songs are REALLY about - which, of course, is his right. I just wish he'd be more straightforward about it.

[wondergirl9847]

I think I see why he uses that nowadays. It's because of the turn his music has taken. It's not all about love and pain from relationships....because life ain't all about love. Perhaps Say Goodbye was THE goodbye to Stevie, in the sense that he's not going to concentrate on that anymore, he's moving onto world issues and stuff. :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

You're right that he said it about SGCYM, but about Peacekeeper as well.

Oops! :o I remember that Philadelphia Inquirer quote now... too bad I didn't remember it before I posted! :laugh:

Maybe Lindsey took a page from Stevie and her 'Songs of Rhiannon,' for his 'Songs of the Greek Gods'? ;)

I imagine that, like all good writers, the theme of the Greek gods looking down on us was Lindsey's starting point, but that the songs then took on a life of their own as he wrote... which would explain why we can have such wildly different interpretations, all of which have equal merit.

[Johnny Stew]

It's not all about love and pain from relationships....because life ain't all about love.

I disagree on that one. Life is all about love. We all want it, need it, search for it, fight for it, go to war for it, write songs about it... the list is endless.

And if we care about world issues, and making this world a better place, it's out of a love for our fellow man, or our children, or someone. :)

:xoxo:

[wondergirl9847]

What I meant was, there are other things besides love in the world....there is hate, racism, ignorance...etc. I didn't mean it as life shouldn't be about love. Of course we should all love one another!! :xoxo:

What we need is a tone button for our messages. LOL

[Johnny Stew]

I didn't mean it as life shouldn't be about love. Of course we should all love one another!! :xoxo:

Oh no, I didn't think you meant it that way... I was just trying to say that, one way or another, pretty much everything is born out of love in some way or another.

Wars, racism, hatred... that kind of stuff is born out of pride, which itself is a warped form of self-love.

So I didn't mean it to sound like I took your comments to mean we shouldn't all love each other... I was just commenting that love (of one kind or another) is pretty much the basis for all of our actions in life.
I should have given a broader idea of what I meant, in my first post. :)

[sodascouts]

Maybe Lindsey took a page from Stevie and her 'Songs of Rhiannon,' for his 'Songs of the Greek Gods'? ;)

I found the former a tiresome theme and I find the latter somewhat of an eye-roller as well, but hey, Red Rover is a brilliant song regardless.

[wondergirl9847]

I gotcha. LOL I was just sayin', there are other things to sing/write about than love. Lindsey, writing songs about death, Greek gods, Mr. Murrow, etc. are just other ideas.

:D

[wondergirl9847]

Why does he need a new theme? I don't read into those songs as being 100% about Greek gods, anyways. I'm ready to hear something besides "I'm saying goodbye to you, Stevie, I'm going my way, why don't you go your own way oh and by the way, I know I'm not wrong!!"

:lol:

Contrary to popular belief, he's had other issues in his life. ;)

[face of glass]

Contrary to popular belief, he's had other issues in his life. ;)
Yeah, just because the Rumours-era FM once wrote an album full of songs about each other doesn't mean that they've always been writing themselves. No disrespect to the BN.net board and its posters but I'd rather imagine that the songs are random thoughts coming out of thin air and then they're assembled together by the artist. Even Lindsey said, back in the day, that the artist has to seriously struggle for what seems simple to others.

Music, and the way it's performed, can express a lot more than just 'em lyrics.

Ok, I'm just as clueless as the others in matters like these. :D

[CarneVaca]

This from a man who corrected Stevie on not maintain consistent second-person tense?

Good point. I'm not sure it makes him hypocritical though. I'm always getting on people at work for using passive voice too much, but that doesn't mean I don't ever use it. When I do, it's very, very rare though. Doesn't make me hypocritical. I use it when it's called for (<----like here).

[CarneVaca]

So not only Peacekeeper, but MURROW! Folks, this catch all answer cannot be applied so specifically to one song but not others. I frankly think this is purposefully vague so that he doesn't have to tell us what these songs are REALLY about - which, of course, is his right. I just wish he'd be more straightforward about it.

Hmm... Murrow seems to be a stretch. I just can't imagine the gods sitting on Mount Olympus pondering the state of TV news.

Be that as it may, I definitely see a connection to the gods on Shuffle Riff. Lindsey even uses the "someone's gotta change your mind" line. So I think it's quite possible that he set about writing a series of songs from the gods' perspective. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt on Murrow, then we have:

Murrow
Peacekeeper
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind
Red Rover
Shuffle Riff

Is it possible he was going to have a theme for the album. Does the song Gift of Screws also fit? I've always seen that song as somewhat political as well.

[CarneVaca]

I imagine that, like all good writers, the theme of the Greek gods looking down on us was Lindsey's starting point, but that the songs then took on a life of their own as he wrote... which would explain why we can have such wildly different interpretations, all of which have equal merit.

This is entirely plausible.

[sodascouts]

Why does he need a new theme? I don't read into those songs as being 100% about Greek gods, anyways. I'm ready to hear something besides "I'm saying goodbye to you, Stevie, I'm going my way, why don't you go your own way oh and by the way, I know I'm not wrong!!"

:lol:

Contrary to popular belief, he's had other issues in his life. ;)

Wait - you don't want him to get a new theme, you just want him to stick with a current theme that's not Stevie? And yet you like the songs you named, don't you? I get a lot more moved by songs inspired by private emotional struggles than I do about songs inspired by Zeus and Hera - even if that personal inspiration is :: gasp :: Stevie. And I'm convinced Red Rover is about her. (Just kidding about that last part, folks lol)

[sodascouts]

Yeah, just because the Rumours-era FM once wrote an album full of songs about each other doesn't mean that they've always been writing themselves. No disrespect to the BN.net board and its posters but I'd rather imagine that the songs are random thoughts coming out of thin air and then they're assembled together by the artist.

Gaius, you've brought up the BN.net board in three recent posts. Has it so dominated your thoughts? ;)

[face of glass]

I get a lot more moved by songs inspired by private emotional struggles than I do about songs inspired by Zeus and Hera - even if that personal inspiration is :: gasp :: Stevie.
Nancy, as a sidenote I'd like to ask; does your awareness of a particular song's background make you connect with it more then?

[face of glass]

Gaius, you've brought up the BN.net board in three recent posts. Has it so dominated your thoughts? ;)
I was just reading those huge arguments in that certain concert review and the Town&Country magazine thread and was pretty much spooked out by those. So to answer your question, "damn right it has". ;)

[wondergirl9847]

Wait - you don't want him to get a new theme, you just want him to stick with a current theme that's not Stevie? And yet you like the songs you named, don't you?

I do love those songs, sure. Although, my two fave songs of his and of all time, ISA and Red Rover, aren't about love and breakups, directly. I can't identify with love songs, I've never been in love. I don't connect with those songs, but that doesn't mean I don't love them to death.

Yeah, if I had to say so, I prefer he do non-Stevie directly songs these days. :)

[sodascouts]

Good point. I'm not sure it makes him hypocritical though. I'm always getting on people at work for using passive voice too much, but that doesn't mean I don't ever use it. When I do, it's very, very rare though. Doesn't make me hypocritical. I use it when it's called for (<----like here).

A little different, do you agree? There's nothing technically wrong with passive voice - it's only less effective because of its displacement or sometimes total omission of an actor. "Mistakes were made" lol. On the other hand, not maintaining [embarrassing previous typo in my last post BTW] a consistent person does disobey the laws of traditional narrative! And if Lindsey decides to be non-traditional, he shouldn't seem so puzzled that Stevie chooses to do so. (And he did seem puzzled to me, at least. "Why isn't Stevie understanding my point here? Bob Dylan? As if!")

[CarneVaca]

I was just reading those huge arguments in that certain concert review and the Town&Country magazine thread and was pretty much spooked out by those. So to answer your question, "damn right it has". ;)

Methinks you're a shipper in disguise. You may well be the only one from the Lindsey side of the house. ;)

[strandinthewind]

A little different, do you agree? There's nothing technically wrong with passive voice - it's only less effective because of its displacement or sometimes total omission of an actor. "Mistakes were made" lol. On the other hand, not maintaining [embarrassing previous typo in my last post BTW] a consistent person does disobey the laws of traditional narrative! And if Lindsey decides to be non-traditional, he shouldn't seem so puzzled that Stevie chooses to do so. (And he did seem puzzled to me, at least. "Why isn't Stevie understanding my point here? Bob Dylan? As if!")

I think Stevie's use of this is born our of an explicit desire to be vague. She knows people will speculate, etc. It does not bother me, in fact I like it. But, it does seem to effect others in a different way :laugh:

[face of glass]

Methinks you're a shipper in disguise. You may well be the only one from the Lindsey side of the house. ;)
C'mon, "no one falls into a simple set of labels". ;)

[sodascouts]

Nancy, as a sidenote I'd like to ask; does your awareness of a particular song's background make you connect with it more then?

Good question. The answer is no. That said, after learning the inspirations, I do find that the songs I initially liked best do reflect private emotional struggles. So I can connect to "Soul Drifter" without knowing it's about Lindsey leaving Fleetwood Mac, but retrospectively appreciate how it got some of its power - because it was infused with Lindsey's own personal struggles.

[CarneVaca]

And if Lindsey decides to be non-traditional, he shouldn't seem so puzzled that Stevie chooses to do so. (And he did seem puzzled to me, at least. "Why isn't Stevie understanding my point here? Bob Dylan? As if!")

Good points, Nancy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But the truth is we don't really know if that interpretation is correct. I like it because it is my interpretation. But mostly, I love these songs because they make me think about the message in a way that no love-inspired song can anymore.

[sodascouts]

I do love those songs, sure. Although, my two fave songs of his and of all time, ISA and Red Rover

One of life's little ironies: These are two of my all-time favorites, too. :)

[CarneVaca]

C'mon, "no one falls into a simple set of labels". ;)

;) <------most popular emoticon!

[sodascouts]

But the truth is we don't really know if that interpretation is correct.

Actually, that was my original point. ;)

But hey, if that interp speaks to you more eloquently, then who am I to disparage it?

[face of glass]

Okay, I'm embarrassed to admit this, but what's a "shipper".
It means those who enjoy analyzing Stevie's and Lindsey's relationship. Often they talk about "SNL shippers" too. :)

(yeah, I got it bad, don't I? :eek: )

[strandinthewind]

it is short for "relationship" :cool:

[wondergirl9847]

RelationSHIP. They love the bond between SnL, but some take it to extremes.

[face of glass]

RelationSHIP. They love the bond between SnL, but some take it to extremes.
As do some of those who have problems with the whole shipper deal. :shrug:

[CarneVaca]

Actually, that was my original point. ;)

But hey, if that interp speaks to you more eloquently, then who am I to disparage it?

I've had a love affair with mythology, especially Greek, for a long time now, Nancy. Come to think of it, part of my original attraction to Stevie Nicks back in the day was her mythical allusions.

Mythology is wonderful because it explains everything. :woohoo:

[wondergirl9847]

As do some of those who have problems with the whole shipper deal. :shrug:

I have no problems with shippers, it's a free country, you can believe whacha want, but it really gets out of control sometimes.

[face of glass]

Has someone been mean to you because you're a shipper, Gaius?
I'm a Nicksfiles shipper first and foremost. ;)
I have no problems with shippers, it's a free country, you can believe whacha want, but it really gets out of control sometimes.
Well I think that sometimes the opposing side has been getting out of control on the BN board too. Nancy does an admirable job in the middle of all that.

[CarneVaca]

Well I think that sometimes the opposing side has been getting out of control on the BN board too.

There's the proof. Gaius is shipper. Gaius is a shipper.

[face of glass]

There's the proof. Gaius is shipper. Gaius is a shipper.
Nah, I just laugh at both sides. I'm above you all you know. ;) (<--- let it be my most common smiley then.)

[CarneVaca]

Nah, I just laugh at both sides. I'm above you all you know.

Are we talking latitudes again? ;) <---- hey, this is fun!

[face of glass]

Err, no. :) And I'm off to bed because I just heard the Timespace remix of "Talk To Me" and that's enough of Mac for me tonight. :eek:

[sodascouts]

Well I think that sometimes the opposing side has been getting out of control on the BN board too. Nancy does an admirable job in the middle of all that.

Now this is what I like to hear! Flattery will get you everywhere. :xoxo:

[sodascouts]

Is it possible he was going to have a theme for the album. Does the song Gift of Screws also fit? I've always seen that song as somewhat political as well.

I have an interp for this all written out, which I am pleased to share with everyone who cares to read it! :)


As Dickinson fans know, this is referring to her poem "Essential Oils Are Wrung" (to read the poem, click here: Essential Oils are Wrung (http://www.bartleby.com/113/4065.html) )

"Essential oils are wrung" - Things we deem necessary to life, our life's blood in effect, "wrung" out through suffering, trial and tribulation. The "attar" is the essence - after these these trials, we come down to the "essence" of something. The essence of a rose is precious. The essence of the soul of man is likewise very precious. However, the essence cannot be reached without struggling. "Is not expressed by suns alone" - the natural course of nature is not enough to bring out the true core of something. That's the "gift of screws." Being twisted like a screw, wrung out....suffering...gives a person the gift of discovering the true essence of his/her soul, purified by trials of fire.

I think Lindsey's using this poem to express the struggles of his life enriching his music and bringing out his true essence. Whether it's Rumours and the suffering of Stevie's breakup, Go Insane and the suffering with Carol, the suffering of FM's nasty breakup to convince him to leave and find himself with Out of the Cradle...all good things borne of tribulation.

However, poems being as they are (just like lyrics) there's a thousand ways to go. Another possible interpretation I see is a more cynical one. In order to "smell sweet" in the music industry (like an essence of a rose) he has to tie himself into knots..."authority makes us bleed." It's not enough for him to just be himself, his true "nature". The finished product of all this twisting, "sweet-smelling" commercialization is considered a "gift" because he's considered more marketable but in reality, he's been diminished. Some gift! As a result, poor Lindsey is screwed by the industry. Now, I prefer the more uplifting interpretation myself, but this one did occur to me as well, so I thought I'd mention it.

Well, no Greek gods in my vision, but anybody else got any ideas?

P.S. Just thought I'd add that my friend Amy thinks Lindsey is speaking about his gift of screwing women skillfully. "To the left... to the right... up and down... in and out... and around..." To quote her, "It's kind of like The Joy of Sex~very instructional." Perhaps Lindsey is rejoicing in the wringing of his essential oils when he screams at the end "That's right, baby! Uh-huh! uh-huh!" [then incoherent cries as music fades.]

Hmm, maybe that's the tie-in. Greek gods are notoriously randy. ;)

[CarneVaca]

Interesting, Nancy. I believe I had read your interpretation before; it rings a bell. You may be on to something there.

Notice the "suns" reference, which also appears in Peacekeeper. There was definitely a theme to Gift of Screws, I think. The same is true for Out of the Cradle. Several images and allusions pop up in different songs.

Incidentally, I have been reading the complete works of Emily Dickinson. A few poems here, a few poems there. Sometimes I just drown myself in her words. What an amazing poet.

[Johnny Stew]

And I'm off to bed because I just heard the Timespace remix of "Talk To Me" and that's enough of Mac for me tonight. :eek:

Not to be all nit-picky... *lol*... but, excluding the three new songs on 'Timespace,' the only tracks that weren't remixed were "Talk To Me" and "I Can't Wait" (Stevie explained that the tapes had gotten brittle, and were in danger of breaking... so they kept the original mixes of those two).

So there is no 'Timespace' remix of "Talk To Me." :)

[face of glass]

So there is no 'Timespace' remix of "Talk To Me."
Is there even a re-recorded vocal? To me it sounds less powerful, like it's the 1991 Nicks trying to recapture the power of the 1985 one but partially failing. Or it could be another overdub laid on the original one.

Oh, wait a minute, it's that Lord-Alge again, trying to make the album more smooth for years. Thanks a lot Chris. :rolleyes:

[Johnny Stew]

Is there even a re-recorded vocal? To me it sounds less powerful, like it's the 1991 Nicks trying to recapture the power of the 1985 one but partially failing. Or it could be another overdub laid on the original one.

Oh, wait a minute, it's that Lord-Alge again, trying to make the album more smooth for years. Thanks a lot Chris. :rolleyes:

There is an alternate take out there. Its one and only appearance was on a various artists compilation called 'Only Rock 'n Roll: 1985-1989.'
That version was recorded early on during the 'Rock A Little' sessions, and then (according to her 1985 interview with Jim Ladd), Stevie says she decided she could sing it better, so she re-recorded it.

That must have been what you heard. :)

By the way, I take it you have no love lost for Chris Lord-Alge!
Personally, I think he's great at what he does... and has a knack for finding the right sound to give an album a good flow and a sense of cohesion. Especially an album that features multiple-producers.
But that's just me. :)

[David]

"Red Rover," I believe, is about hubris. And as such, the gods are figuring out just what to do about it.That's an interesting perspective, CarneVaca. The song still puzzles me, however.

Can it be about the visits Lindsey used to make to his father's grave, & the "chats" he had with his dead dad?

[wondergirl9847]

Here is another interp in regards to his dad's death and comforting his mother.

"Why do you come around so very much? You know it just brings you down, it's just something you can touch." - Asking his mom why she goes to the gravesite, it only upsets her, but he understands, it's tangible, because her love is gone. :(

"You don't belong here, I guess you never did." - He could be talking to his father now....saying, you were so good, dad, maybe you didn't belong on earth. Trying to rationalize his being gone, part of the grieving process.

"Whisper murder in your ear, you just keep it so well hid." - This dang line always confuses me. LOL Perhaps his mom was mad at God for "murdering" her husband...for taking him too soon, and she kept that from others because it's too shocking. She hid that thought from everyone else.

"Anyone at all could see what was missing. Could see you were dying though no one was crying." - Maybe there were signs that he was going to have a heart attack, chest pains or something, and they saw it in hindsight. Looking back, we should have known this was going to happen soon. :shrug:

"And the lips you were kissing, night after night, all were bathed in blue, all bathed in white" - Obviously...the man she kissed is gone.

"Red rover, red rover, red rover, we come to take you over." - Taking his dad to Heaven.

"One of the quiet ones one of the few" - Perhaps his dad was a quiet man.

"Now fall down onto your knees show us all what you can do." - Stretching here, but perhaps his dad would get on his knees to play with the boys, being the good daddy that he was.

"We came around here to see if you were well" - Lindsey, other family members going to check on his mom, see how she was doing after his dad's death.

"And there's nothing for you to fear in Heaven or in Hell" - She is still alive, so there is nothing to fear.

Like I said....who knows WHAT the frick he's talking about. :laugh: David, you hit a good point...it COULD be Lindsey talking to HIMSELF about his dad and his emotions after he died.

I can't leave this alone. LOL David's post got me to thinking, if Lindsey is talking to himself, that would go along with my interp regarding his mom. Perhaps, he was comforting himself and maybe talking about the therapy he went to...the therapist may have told him "Don't fear Heaven or Hell." or something. "One of the quiet ones...etc." could be Lindsey. The "we" could be LB's family and friends checking on him.

AAAAHHH!!!! This song frickin RULES!!!!!!

[elle]

loved reading through this thread and various interpretations!

[Deeshere]

I'll take a crack at it...First of all you have to remember/understand what the game Red Rover is about. http://http://www.wikihow.com/Play-Red-Rover

The object of the game is to break through the other teams defenses and take one of their members back to your team. Once everyone is all on one team the team with all the players wins. I think Lindsey sees 2 teams Fleetwood Mac (Mick, John, & Chris) and Buckingham Nicks (Lindsey & Stevie). In essence Fleetwood Mac won the game of Red Rover they broke through Buckingham/Nicks defenses and absorbed the duo, so Buckingham Nicks became Fleetwood Mac (one team)

When Lindsey said the song was about GODS looking down on the people below and trying to decide (I think he said) if they should let the people (live ?) during the taping of Sound Stage, I think anytime he mentions GODS he is talking about Fleetwood Mac (Mick, John & Christine) and in this instance" the people" are Buckingham Nicks. Fleetwood Mac was well established by the time Buckingham Nicks joined and so to Stevie and Lindsey, Mick, John and Chris may very well have seemed like musical GODS at the time they joined.

In Peacekeeper there's a line that says " You know all of our friends are gods"

So looking at it from that point of view I think the lyrics mean this:

Why do you come around so very much
You know it just brings you down it’s just something you can touch
You don’t belong here I guess you never did

Lindsey is speaking like he's Mick, Chris or John, asking himself why do you keep coming back to Fleetwood Mac, you know it just upsets you and makes you sad. You never belonged here anyway.

Whisper murder in your ear you just keep it so well hid

When Lindsey talks about Murder, I believe he's talking about the death of Buckingham/Nicks. Stevie said Buckingham/Nicks had to die so Fleetwood Mac could live. You just keep it so well hid means he acts like he doesn't care that his and Stevie's duo dissolved (but we all know he does)

Anyone at all could see what was missing
Could see you were dying though no one was crying

I think this means that when you saw Lindsey you could see he was very unhappy and depressed (in essence he was dying inside), but no one either in the band or around the band cared.

And the lips you were kissing night after night
All were bathed in blue all bathed in white

I don't think he literally means kissing someone, but playing up to them, sweet talking them etc... so I think he's talking about Stevie. Saying when they are on stage he's crying over her, and being lovey dovey to her (not all the time, but a lot of the time). All bathed in blue and white are the colors of the stage lights. When Sister of the Moon played Stevie had blue lighting on her.


Red Rover red rover red rover
We've come we've come we've come we've come to take you over

Again I think this is Fleetwood Mac coming to take over (or destroy) Buckingham/Nicks.

One of the quiet ones one of the few
Now fall down onto your knees show us all what you can do

The quite one I think is John. In the early day's people have said John and Lindsey use to argue a lot about the music. So I think this could be Lindsey speaking like he's John and more or less saying OK Lindsey, you think your so great, why don't you fall down on your knees and show us what you can do (musically with the guitar)


We came around here to see if you were well
And there’s nothing for you to fear in heaven or in hell

Here I think Lindsey is speaking from Micks point of view acting like it's time for Fleetwood Mac to get back together for a new CD. So Mick is talking to Lindsey saying he was checking up on him to see how he's doing (is he well?). Mick then says there's nothing for you to fear in heaven or in hell. I think heaven or hell is a reference to Fleetwood Mac. It was heaven on stage, but hell off stage, so Micks is saying you have nothing to fear coming back to Fleetwood Mac to record a new CD with them.