Open letter to Dubya

[The Tower]

Well, it's a little strident and over-exaggerated in some spots- but, otherwise, quite a nice read.

************************************************

11 Hard Questions For Bush
In which our columnist sits down with the prez for some truly tough talk. Can Dubya handle it?

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Friday, April 30, 2004

Thank you for your time, Mr. President.

Just a few questions, purely for clarification, so the American people might understand you better. I know you're busy, packing for another vacation or something. This won't take but a few minutes. Here, have a soda. Let's begin:

1) Mr. President, if a train leaves San Francisco at 10 am carrying 1,000 happily gay happily married couples and travels at 85 mph for three hours, while at the very same moment a train departs Crawford, Texas, loaded with 2,000 vaguely miserable Christian fundamentalists and nail-wearing fanatics of "The Passion of the Christ" and travels in exactly the opposite direction at 65 mph for the same amount of time, at what point will almost every single fundamentalist secretly wish s/he could be the towel boy for the hot-tub parties on the other train?



2) Dubya, as you're apparently comfortable with the fact that more than 700 young U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq (over 125 this month alone!) and thousands more have been wounded and hundreds more will doubtlessly die in the coming months, not to mention the countless thousands of innocent Iraqi/Afghan civilians who've been killed, all as a result of your aggro-American policy to rid the world of all those who would stand in the way of your oily corporate stratagems, does this mean you are able to laugh in the face of death and mock the vagaries of time and fate?

Are you able, in other words, to transcend the physical body and the ego and attain a superhuman spiritual mastery of the earthly form? Are you a god? Or just a petty and small-minded warmonger controlled by thin-lipped master puppeteers? Did I just answer my own question?

3) You are called by God. You believe you are the chosen one. The Lord Himself has happily green-lighted your decisions to bomb the living crap out of pip-squeak and nearly defenseless nations for decreasingly justifiable reasons. You are born-again, re-sobered, a former hardcore binge drinker and rumored huge fan of various illegal substances back in college, and you had at least one DUI arrest and went AWOL from the National Guard, and you've stashed away from public view all records of both your tenure as Texas governor, and those SEC investigations into your alleged insider trading. You are a failed oilman and a failed businessman and have been spoon-fed your entire career.

So then: Do you sleep peacefully at night, or do your dreams involve small armies of angry sharp-toothed fairies, tearing you limb from limb and sucking the pith from your withered soul while they casually erase your entire portfolio as you scream, silently, unable to move due to all the leeches? Don't bother answering. Your expression says it all.


4) Nearly 1 million radiant women marched and sang and chanted in front of your very own office in Washington, D.C., just recently, angrily protesting your ongoing antichoice efforts to hack away at women's reproductive rights. This was so important to you that you were, meanwhile, up to your cute monkey ears in pink bubbles in your favorite bathtub at Camp David, taking yourself yet another completely undeserved mini retreat and shrugging off the protest as you further locked in your ranking as the most-vacationed president in U.S. history.

Now, then: Would you, or would you not, allow your famed party-girl daughter Jenna to take RU-486 were she to "make a mistake" with one of the Young Republicans at an all-night beer-bong bash at Sigma Alpha Delta?

5) You have a secret, Dubya. Deep down, you really don't know the difference between Fallujah and a fajita. Shiites and Baathists? Sound vaguely familiar to your twangy Texas ear, reminding you of what you holler when you stub your toe and fall into the mud at the ranch: "Shee-yite! Now I need another bubble baath." That joke always cracks you up.

This gul-dang Iraq mess has turned far more complicated and nasty and primal than Uncle Dick ever warned you it might. Don't you wish you were back at Yale, hammered on rum and Cokes and dreamin' 'bout baseball and playin' Go Fish with Dad? Can you point to North Korea on a map? How about Vietnam? Never mind.

6) A recent NASA satellite survey of the Arctic has revealed that the temperature increase there over the past 20 years is a whopping eight times higher than the total rise recorded over the past century. That is to say, Shrub, that global warming is more obvious and deadly than ever and there are reams of published studies proving that it's no longer a looming threat, but, rather, a present and lethal event happening right now, and the only quasi-scientist who denies the whole thing is your own White House lackey.

So, then, as you were gleefully easing all the laws regulating the nation's biggest industrial polluters and accepting cigars and gobs of campaign cash from those crony CEOs, which of their punch lines did you like best? "Don't spend it all in one place"? "Don't let it burn a hole in yer pocket"? or "Now go buy yerself sumthin' purty"?

7) Hindus practice nonviolence. Buddhists practice egolessness and nonbeing. True Christians practice deep love and acceptance. Sufi masters practice enlightenment through whirling mystical transcendence. Pagans practice veneration for the earth and the divine feminine.

Whereas many born-again Christians, well, you tend to practice the belief that all other beliefs are damned and sinful and deserving of much scorn and derision and possible military shelling. Do you know what God really thinks of you, Dubya? Let me help you with this one: She doesn't, much.

8) Your résumé of accomplishments is the most embarrassing and humiliating of any president in U.S. history. Examples: You know full well you gouged the hell out of the elderly over Medicare. You cut benefits for war veterans at the very same time you were busy waging a whole new war. Under your watch, 3 million Americans lost their jobs, you bankrupted the Treasury, the deficit skyrocketed, the U.N. became irrelevant and you set the record for government-spending increases. Oh, and your environmental record is the worst of any president in American history.

So, a philosophical question: Which best describes your approach? Is it willful ignorance, like the Creationists? The Buddhist notion of (bad) karma? Descarte's mistrust of the flawed human senses? Or the Sartre concept of the petty bourgeoisie (that's you, Shrub), who wake up at 50 just in time to watch themselves die? All of the above?

9) The Distillers or Yeah Yeah Yeahs? Sammy Hagar or David Lee Roth? Rostropovich or Fournier? Dylan: acoustic or electric? Hangar One or Grey Goose? Astroglide or Liquid Silk? Small of back or nape of neck? Tattoos or nipple rings? Why is Shania Twain famous? When will Fiona return to blow away Norah and Avril and Michelle?

Why, Dubya, are you so obviously, painfully detached from modern culture and society? Why are you such an intellectual and spiritual alien, unreachable by the countless millions who find nourishment in art and music and sex and creative juice? All answers count as one.

10) Astronomers have recently discovered that not only is the universe expanding at a mind-boggling rate, but this expansion is actually accelerating, propelled by an astounding and mysterious force called dark energy that pushes the boundaries of our universe outward faster and faster and baffles the world's greatest minds and throws into question our most basic understanding of gravity and space/time and the galaxy and our place in it.

I don't really have a question here. Just wanted to point out your ultimate, staggering smallness, relatively speaking.


11) Some believe the mind and body are merely rote machines, Dubya, ugly dumb congestions of cells and carbon and water and electric impulses whose only real purpose is raw animal survival and desperate procreation until death and decay and nothingness.

Others believe the human animal is a potent divine vehicle, that this flesh is merely how our ageless, formless spirit experiences density, and that we are here, in short, to learn mandatory messy earthbound information and then merge what we learn with the Great Mystery.

This is the last question, Shrub, and perhaps the most important of all: What will your contribution be? With what sort of divine openness and creative energy are you choosing to pass through this world? What will you lay at the feet of the divine besides a small mountain of dead bodies and an oil-rich stock portfolio?

Thank you for your time, Mr. President. Enjoy your vacation.

[CarneVaca]

I don't see any exaggerations.

[dissention]

Exaggerated? If anything, it's a bit too rosy.

Thanks for posting!

[Tango]

but someone sent me this in an email. How much of this is true?

FDR led us into World War II.
Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.
North Korea never attacked us.
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.

John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.
Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
Over 2,900 lives lost on 9/11.

In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year.
Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack at home.

-----
I clearly don't get the connection of Iraq and 9/11 either. But I can see some of the points of this email.

[strandinthewind]

Well, no, Germany never directly atacked us, at least as of 12/7/41. But Japan and Germany were allied via the German-Japanese Agreement and Supplementary Protocol, Signed at Berlin, November 25, 1936 (Anti-Comintern Pact) and Italy, Germany, and Japan were similarly allied when a similar document was executed in Rome on November 6, 1937. Then, there was the Tripartite Pact of September 27, 1940, which further allied Germany, Italy, and Japan and created the Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis, or Axis alliance. So, when we declared war on Japan after they attacked us in December 1941, we entered into the entire war because of these alliances.

ALso, I am not sure people oppose W's general idea of suppressing terrorism. I think people, like me, oppose how he is going about it. But, the country clearly is about 50/50 on it because the country is 50/50 on whether to reelect W as demonstrated by the latest Gallop poll at http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/06/gallup.poll/index.html

[dissention]

John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Horse****. Vietnam reaches back to the mid-fifties, way before JFK got in the WH. It had been going on behind our backs for years. Then Johnson got in, escalated it even further, lied about everything, imagined the Gulf of Tonkin incident (which NEVER happened), and chose not to run for re-election because the Democratic party would not support him. You want some good reading? Go read the Pentagon Papers! :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Horse****. Vietnam reaches back to the mid-fifties, way before JFK got in the WH. It had been going on behind our backs for years. Then Johnson got in, escalated it even further, lied about everything, imagined the Gulf of Tonkin incident (which NEVER happened), and chose not to run for re-election because the Democratic party would not support him. You want some good reading? Go read the Pentagon Papers! :laugh:

Here is a timeline from PBS on Vietnam.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/time/index.html

[gldstwmn]

John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.



Nixon escalated troop involvement and secretly bombed Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war. His presidency was from 1968-1974. Your point that Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire is subjective, not historical fact. More lives were lost in Vietnam under Nixon than Johnson, according to your "facts" above.
Nice try with the Rethuglican talking points.

[strandinthewind]

Nixon escalated troop involvement and secretly bombed Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war. His presidency was from 1968-1974. Your point that Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire is subjective, not historical fact. More lives were lost in Vietnam under Nixon than Johnson, according to your "facts" above.
Nice try with the Rethuglican talking points.

True, but Nixon was trying to end the mess Johnson for the most part created. I think Vietnam was just a nightmare caused by both parties and they now blame each other for it and simultaneously wash their hands, etc. I am hoping Iraq will not turn into a Vietnam. So, far, it looks like it shall not in the number of dead American soldiers. But, it could in the form of it taking years to get us out of there and leave an govt. that can rule without our stabilization, etc. Only time will tell.

[gldstwmn]

True, but Nixon was trying to end the mess Johnson for the most part created. I think Vietnam was just a nightmare caused by both parties and they now blame each other for it and simultaneously wash their hands, etc. I am hoping Iraq will not turn into a Vietnam. So, far, it looks like it shall not in the number of dead American soldiers. But, it could in the form of it taking years to get us out of there and leave an govt. that can rule without our stabilization, etc. Only time will tell.

Yes and no. The numbers of the dead and wounded in Iraq are being manipulated by the government like the price of gas in this country. The Vietnam comparison is again, subjective.

[strandinthewind]

Yes and no. The numbers of the dead and wounded in Iraq are being manipulated by the government like the price of gas in this country. The Vietnam comparison is again, subjective.

True, but the number American soldiers dead after a year in Iraq are, by anyone's estimate, around 800 or so, which is far from Vietnam's numbers in that there, from 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, for an average of 5,800 per year. Again, I am just saying Iraq is no Vietnam in terms of lives lost - at least yet - and it shows no signs of becoming a bloodbath of American lives on the scale of Vietnam. I am just saying is the situation in Iraq could very well be very similar to Vietnam in that we may not be able to get out of Iraq after four or so years without admitting defeat, etc. That is a very real possibility actually. I hope it does not play out that way. But, only time will tell. :cool:

[dissention]

and it shows no signs of becoming a bloodbath of American lives on the scale of Vietnam.

Wait until a certain videotape of abuse becomes public...

[dissention]

Here is a timeline from PBS on Vietnam.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/time/index.html

Yeah, and it makes no mnetion of the fact that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a complete and utter fabrication. It's one of the biggest shams in our country's history.

Like I said, go read the actual Pentagon papers, they'll open your eyes.

[strandinthewind]

Wait until a certain videotape of abuse becomes public...
I am talking in terms of American soldiers being killed. Perhaps there will be an insurrection on the release of this video tape. But, that appears unlikely as the pics. that have been released already caused no such insurrection and neither did W's lame attempt in Islamic television to explain that the actions of a few American soldiers did not represent America's policies, etc. So, again, I think Iraq shows no signs of becoming a place where 5,800 American soldiers are killed wach year. But and again, only time will tell.

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, and it makes no mnetion of the fact that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a complete and utter fabrication. It's one of the biggest shams in our country's history.

Like I said, go read the actual Pentagon papers, they'll open your eyes.

I have. I was just posting that site as a source for general information and PBS usually is a good source for that.

Here is an article on the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I know nothing of the site other than this article. http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html

[dissention]

I am talking in terms of American soldiers being killed. Perhaps there will be an insurrection on the release of this video tape. But, that appears unlikely as the pics. that have been released already caused no such insurrection and neither did W's lame attempt in Islamic television to explain that the actions of a few American soldiers did not represent America's policies, etc. So, again, I think Iraq shows no signs of becoming a place where 5,800 American soldiers are killed wach year. But and again, only time will tell.

I'm saying that once a certain videotape is released, there's going to be a bloodbath in Iraq. Many credible sources have said that there is a videotape out there of American troops raping an Iraqi boy in that same prison (where over 60% of the prisoners are innocent). If this comes out into the open, say some prayers. What bothers me about the picture controversy is how they tried to cover it up ILLEGALLY. The 53-page report was classified by the Pentagon as "SECRET" and "CLASSIFIED," which is 100% illegal. By law, the government CANNOT keep war crimes a secret.

And I hope those f*ckers who acted out those abuses get the book thrown at them. Life in a prison, for sure. They are some truly sick f*cks. Evil, IMO.

[DeeGeMe]

Have y'all heard about the incident where the troops put a saddle on an elderly woman and rode her around like a donkey? If that's not sick, I don't know what else is.

[strandinthewind]

This is equally as sickening:

from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119157,00.html

Red Cross: U.S. Ignored Our Prison Pleas

Thursday, May 06, 2004

GENEVA — The international Red Cross said Thursday that it had repeatedly asked U.S. authorities to take action over alleged prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib (search) prison before recent revelations about the way detainees were treated.



"We were aware of what was going on, and based on our findings we have repeatedly requested the U.S. authorities to take corrective action," said Nada Doumani, spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross (search), speaking from Amman, Jordan.

The ICRC, which visits prisoners held by coalition authorities in Iraq, had previously declined to comment publicly on conditions at the prison.

"We've been visiting Abu Ghraib prison since already from last year," Doumani told The Associated Press. "We are of course aware of the situation since we talk with the detainees privately.

"We get testimony from them. We visit all the premises in this place. We crosscheck information we receive from different detainees. Definitely we were aware of what was going on in Abu Ghraib.

Doumani said the visits have been taking place every five or six weeks since last year. The most recent visit was March 20, she said.

The scandal over treatment of prisoners began when CBS television broadcast pictures of smiling American guards with Iraqi prisoners in humiliating positions. That unleashed a huge international outcry.

The ICRC is designated by the Geneva Conventions (search) on warfare to visit prisoners of war and other people detained by an occupying power. It traditionally discusses its observations only with the detaining authority, but has been under pressure to say whether it had specifically warned the United States about prisoner abuse before the photographs came to light.

Doumani didn't say specifically when it gave its first warnings, but that it was over a period of months.

[strandinthewind]

www.cnn.com is reporting as breaking news that:

"President Bush says he is sorry for the humiliation suffered by Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. troops. Details soon. "

[dissention]

Have y'all heard about the incident where the troops put a saddle on an elderly woman and rode her around like a donkey? If that's not sick, I don't know what else is.

They also gang-raped women in the prison and shocked their genitals afterwards. Any person who can do such is a thing is evil. This whole mess breaks my heart and it especially pains me that this is so widespread and not simply an "isolated incident" as the government would like us to believe.

[dissention]

www.cnn.com is reporting as breaking news that:

"President Bush says he is sorry for the humiliation suffered by Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. troops. Details soon. "

A day late and a dollar short, bud. ;)

I was insulted by McClellan's press briefing yesterday when he said that he was there to apologize on Bush's behalf. I felt like it was a slap int he face not only to the Iraqi's, but to the world.

[dissention]

Anybody watch C-SPAN this morning?! Charlie Rangel is preparing articles of impeachment! :eek: Nothing will probably come of it, but you never know. It'll make for good C-SPAN watching, though. Here's the transcript of what he said:

"...an atmosphere where all of the people in iraq have been demonized, where it appears to American people and certainly to our military that the people in iraq are responsible for 911 and causing us pain, that the Secretary of Defense did have info months ago about these atrocities and that he kept it from the president, he kept it from the Congress, and he kept it from the American people.

I think that this rises to the point that it's a high crime and a misdemeanor, if he disappointed the president, kept information from the congress and kept this information from the american people, I think America and the world wants us to show the outrage, not by rhetoric, but by taking action!

And if the president doesn't fire the secretary, if he doesn't resign, I think it's the responsibility of this Congress to file articles of impeachment and force him to leave office.

Then the whole world would know, not just our military, not just Americans, but the whole world what we stand for.

If people can say mission completed when it looks like there's victory, and we see atrocities like this and it happens on someone's watch. If they don't have the dignity to say, "I'm sorry," and move on, the we have the responsibility under our Constitution to remove these people from office. He kept the info away from this congress. We have the responsibility of oversight. I'm preparing articles of impeachment today."

[dissention]

I am talking in terms of American soldiers being killed. Perhaps there will be an insurrection on the release of this video tape. But, that appears unlikely as the pics. that have been released already caused no such insurrection and neither did W's lame attempt in Islamic television to explain that the actions of a few American soldiers did not represent America's policies, etc. So, again, I think Iraq shows no signs of becoming a place where 5,800 American soldiers are killed wach year. But and again, only time will tell.

I just saw the Berg video and almost threw up. Aparrently, there was finally a response to the Iraqi abuse photos and a group of them rounded up an American contractor and beheaded him on Monday. I knew it was going to happen, it was just a matter of time.

[dissention]

http://pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-16/108430077760820.xml


Pa. family angry with American government over son's brutal death

By JASON STRAZIUSO
The Associated Press
5/11/2004, 2:34 p.m. ET

WEST CHESTER, Pa. (AP) — The family of an American civilian shown beheaded on an Islamic militant Web site huddled in in tears Tuesday after learning of the existence of the graphic videotape.

The video showed Nick Berg, 26, in a staged execution carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group. The video said the killing was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne," the man said on the video before being killed. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."

Berg's family said U.S. State Department officials on Monday had told them Berg was decapitated. The family, though, had wanted that information to remain private.

When told about news of the Web site Nick Berg's father, brother and sister, collapsed to the ground in a tearful hug in their front yard.

"I knew he was decapitated before," said the father, Michael Berg. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by U.S. officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer.

Nick Berg, a small telecommunications business owner, spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But Berg was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. He was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days.

His father, Michael, said his son wasn't allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.

Michael Berg said he blamed the U.S. government for creating circumstances that led to his son's death. He said if his son hadn't been detained for so long, he might have been able to leave the country before the violence worsened.

"I think a lot of people are fed up with the lack of civil rights this thing has caused," he said. "I don't think this administration is committed to democracy."

The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he said he would come home by way of Jordan.

Berg had traveled several times to Third World countries to help spread technology, his family said. He had previously traveled to Kenya and Ghana, where they said he had purchased a $900 brick-making press for a poor village, the family said.

Berg's mother, Suzanne Berg, said her son was in Iraq to help rebuild communication antennas.

"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure," she said.

Michael Berg described himself as fervently anti-war, but said his son disagreed with him.

"He was a Bush supporter," Berg said. "He looked at it as bringing democracy to a country that didn't have it."

Suzanne Berg said she was told her son's body would be transported to Kuwait and then to Dover, Del. She said the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was but that federal officials had not been helpful.

"I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself."

[The Tower]

I just saw the Berg video and almost threw up. Aparrently, there was finally a response to the Iraqi abuse photos and a group of them rounded up an American contractor and beheaded him on Monday. I knew it was going to happen, it was just a matter of time.

You actually saw the entire video??? YIKES!!! I thought it hadn't been broadcast in the U.S.

Just awful.... :(

[dissention]

You actually saw the entire video??? YIKES!!! I thought it hadn't been broadcast in the U.S.

Just awful.... :(

The group that killed him posted it online on a website made to resemble the Department of Homeland Security web site.

I DID NOT watch the entire thing. I couldn't bring myself to do it. The video quality is superb, so you can see everything that happens. They beheaded him alive with a handsaw and I had to turn it off when I heard his screams; my stomach almost gave way. From what others tell me at the Democratic Underground, it gets INCREDIBLY graphic and what they do at the end of the video is more unbelievable than the beheading itself.

[strandinthewind]

I just saw the Berg video and almost threw up. Aparrently, there was finally a response to the Iraqi abuse photos and a group of them rounded up an American contractor and beheaded him on Monday. I knew it was going to happen, it was just a matter of time.

EEK - that is horrifying.

But still, it is not the 5,00 or so a year in Vietnam that I think is required to say Iraq is the same as Vietnam and this guy was a civilian :shrug:

In any event, let's hope no more of these happen :(

[DeeGeMe]

The group that killed him posted it online on a website made to resemble the Department of Homeland Security web site.

I DID NOT watch the entire thing. I couldn't bring myself to do it. The video quality is superb, so you can see everything that happens. They beheaded him alive with a handsaw and I had to turn it off when I heard his screams; my stomach almost gave way. From what others tell me at the Democratic Underground, it gets INCREDIBLY graphic and what they do at the end of the video is more unbelievable than the beheading itself.


There are now several sites that have the video. I have no desire to see it.

P.S.--I'm a DU'er too! Big surprise there, huh?

[dissention]

P.S.--I'm a DU'er too! Big surprise there, huh?

BIG surprise. :xoxo: I'm feeling the DU love. That place rawks.

[dissention]

EEK - that is horrifying.

But still, it is not the 5,00 or so a year in Vietnam that I think is required to say Iraq is the same as Vietnam and this guy was a civilian :shrug:

In any event, let's hope no more of these happen :(

To be honest, now that I have had time to digest what I saw, I have some serious reservations about it. Ther's no doubt that the poor man was murdered in a horrific manner, but I think the US has something to do with it. There are way too many things that don't make any sense in that video.

[strandinthewind]

To be honest, now that I have had time to digest what I saw, I have some serious reservations about it. Ther's no doubt that the poor man was murdered in a horrific manner, but I think the US has something to do with it. There are way too many things that don't make any sense in that video.

You mean you think the US staged it :eek: While I am a conspiracy theorist, I am unsure I can buy that one. But, I have not seen the video and do not intend to. So, I will go by your judgment.

[dissention]

You mean you think the US staged it :eek: While I am a conspiracy theorist, I am unsure I can buy that one. But, I have not seen the video and do not intend to. So, I will go by your judgment.

I don't think they staged the killing, that happened for real. You could see it was real on the video. But I believe the US may have been involved somehow. There are a lot of things that don't add up. First of all, Berg was wearing an orange US-issue detainee jumpsuit. Now, we know that he was detained and probably wore one, but he was released quite awhile before he was murdered. And they don't release you to the streets wearing one of those, either. Second, the supposed al-Qaeds operatives are wearing tennis shoes. The men who are pinning the man down are WHITE. One look at their hands and there's no doubt about it. The men who are pinning him also act weirdly, like they're very fidgety and nervous. Then there's the fact that Berg shows no signs whatsoever of being afraid or nervous himself until the start to pin him down. It's as if he was sitting there with buddies. Another thing that weirded me out was that none of the men speak English when speaking to him, yet he tells the camera about his family and the like, as if on cue. Why would he just blurt all of that out unless he was told to? Anyways, it just doesn't add up in my mind. I don't know what to make of it.

[Rob67]

To be honest, now that I have had time to digest what I saw, I have some serious reservations about it. Ther's no doubt that the poor man was murdered in a horrific manner, but I think the US has something to do with it. There are way too many things that don't make any sense in that video.

You have GOT to be kidding me... :eek: :shrug:

OK...I have officially lost respect for you! :distress:

There is absolutely NO evidence to back that up and that is complete "anti US" speculation. It is another example of the simple "radical liberal" tendancy to forgive and believe in the people who are against this country and oppose and berate any and all actions by this country. I am saddened beyond belief by this. Were some of our soldiers wrong in what they did to the Iraqi prisoners? Absolutely. Should they be punished??? Of course...throw the book at them.

Think, for a moment, if this was actually an Iraqi who was beheaded and the hooded figures were American soldiers. Can you imagine what the outrage would be in this country, and the world? At that point, I would agree that we need to reconsider our actions.

This is about as night and day an example of pure evil as you can get. I hope they find those bastards.

Rob :cool:

[dissention]

You have GOT to be kidding me... :eek: :shrug:

OK...I have officially lost respect for you! :distress:

There is absolutely NO evidence to back that up and that is complete "anti US" speculation.

Ah, but there is no evidence to back up the claim of our government that it is people from al-Qaeda who are doing it, either. Like I said, I don't know what happened, I just think there are a lot of weird details in that video that make no sense. And if you haven't seen the video, don't be so quit to shoot down what I see as inconsistencies. And it's not "anti US" to speculate on such things, either. It's okay to have HUGE differences in political opinion, it's another to question someones patriotism. With all the things I've said, never once did I do that. And I never will.

And, if you're wondering, I also believe that the first moon landing video with Armstrong is a phony, too. :nod:

[Rob67]

Ah, but there is no evidence to back up the claim of our government that it is people from al-Qaeda who are doing it, either. Like I said, I don't know what happened, I just think there are a lot of weird details in that video that make no sense. And if you haven't seen the video, don't be so quit to shoot down what I see as inconsistencies.

I have seen the video and it looks consistent with the Pearl video from last year in terms of ritual. But...I don't claim to be an expert on video and I assume you aren't either. So, that is a wild theory that is a shot in the dark. Besides THEY CLAIM TO BE AL-QAEDA IN THE VIDEO!!!

And, if you're wondering, I also believe that the first moon landing video with Armstrong is a phony, too. :nod:

At least the craziness is consistent. :rolleyes: :wavey:

Rob :cool:

[dissention]

I have seen the video and it looks consistent with the Pearl video from last year in terms of ritual. But...I don't claim to be an expert on video and I assume you aren't either. So, that is a wild theory that is a shot in the dark. Besides THEY CLAIM TO BE AL-QAEDA IN THE VIDEO!!!

They can claim to be al-Qaeda all they want, it has to be authenticated first. And it has nothing to do with being an expert on video, video has nothing to do with what I see as very odd details. I mean, don't you find it weird that even the audio is out of sync with the video?

At least the craziness is consistent. :rolleyes: :wavey:

When all else fails, hurl the insults. :rolleyes: :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Well, I thought the moon thing was fake too, but I got over it after the second or third trip there!!!!! :woohoo:

[dissention]

Well, I thought the moon thing was fake too, but I got over it after the second or third trip there!!!!! :woohoo:

Don't you mean your second or third trip to the bar. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

Don't you mean your second or third trip to the bar. :lol:

Well, no - I was between new born (1966) and four during that time :laugh: I mean we start warly in Louisiana, but even WE have our limits!!!! :cool:

[dissention]

Well, no - I was between new born (1966) and four during that time :laugh: I mean we start warly in Louisiana, but even WE have our limits!!!! :cool:

I see, so you didn't get whiskey rubbed on your gums as a baby like I did, eh? :lol:

[strandinthewind]

I see, so you didn't get whiskey rubbed on your gums as a baby like I did, eh? :lol:

Actually, my mom could not nurse, so I had a large Arfican American wet nurse who always had some of her kid or kids nursing, who I am confidant drank bourbon while nursing!!! So . . . . :woohoo:

[Rob67]

They can claim to be al-Qaeda all they want, it has to be authenticated first. And it has nothing to do with being an expert on video, video has nothing to do with what I see as very odd details. I mean, don't you find it weird that even the audio is out of sync with the video?

I find it weird that your questioning the quality of a video tape used by terrorists to execute a non-military prisoner.

I would also think that we would be able to conclude that because the tape was aired by an outlet with ties to al-Qaeda then it's pretty likely that the tape is authentic and linked to them.


When all else fails, hurl the insults. :rolleyes: :wavey:

I am just calling it as I see it. And, claiming that I am "hurling insults" is like the pot calling the kettle black, no? :shrug: I am curious as to why your convinced that the US is behind every atrocity that happens around the world. Is it so hard to believe that there are bad people out there? I haven't once heard you take a stand for the US, the country that allows us all these freedoms of expression. What kinds of things do you like about the US? From everything I read you seem to hate this country and everything it has ever stood for. Why?

I am completely baffled by your stances.

If anything, this murder should open people's eyes to what we are dealing with...religious fanaticism at it's most extreme. You seem more worried about taking "God" off the dollar bill then you do about Muslim fundamentalism and the violence that has been openly perpetuated by it for decades.

The trend I see with liberal fantacism is that whatever is bad for the US, is good for them. I have plenty of discussions with liberal minded folks who are appalled by stances of the far left (the very vocal minority). My friend, Amy, who is quite liberal in her views has said that people like Michael Moore are the ones who shout the loudest and get the most airtime and they give regular liberal thinkers a bad name.

It's funny...fundamentalist Muslim countries tend to uphold all the values that liberals detest (no women's rights, religious persecution and fundamentalism, control of media and information, etc.) yet they would defend their beliefs over those in the free societies of the traditional "west". The very societies that allow for the freedom of discussion and disagreement. I am not saying you shouldn't have the right to feel the way you do...I just don't get the logic.

But...whatever, I digress.

Peace..

Rob :cool:

[dissention]

I am just calling it as I see it. And, claiming that I am "hurling insults" is like the pot calling the kettle black, no? :shrug: I am curious as to why your convinced that the US is behind every atrocity that happens around the world. Is it so hard to believe that there are bad people out there? I haven't once heard you take a stand for the US, the country that allows us all these freedoms of expression. What kinds of things do you like about the US? From everything I read you seem to hate this country and everything it has ever stood for. Why?

I am completely baffled by your stances.

If anything, this murder should open people's eyes to what we are dealing with...religious fanaticism at it's most extreme. You seem more worried about taking "God" off the dollar bill then you do about Muslim fundamentalism and the violence that has been openly perpetuated by it for decades.

The trend I see with liberal fantacism is that whatever is bad for the US, is good for them. I have plenty of discussions with liberal minded folks who are appalled by stances of the far left (the very vocal minority). My friend, Amy, who is quite liberal in her views has said that people like Michael Moore are the ones who shout the loudest and get the most airtime and they give regular liberal thinkers a bad name.

It's funny...fundamentalist Muslim countries tend to uphold all the values that liberals detest (no women's rights, religious persecution and fundamentalism, control of media and information, etc.) yet they would defend their beliefs over those in the free societies of the traditional "west". The very societies that allow for the freedom of discussion and disagreement. I am not saying you shouldn't have the right to feel the way you do...I just don't get the logic.

But...whatever, I digress.

Peace..

Rob :cool:

First of all, I am under no obligation to justify my stances for you, nor am I obligated to break down my patriotism for you. I find it rather insulting that you, on the basis that I am not a Republican and despise everything this administration stands for, have the balls to make like I do. There are many, many, many things I love about this country, which is why I'm so sad about the state of it at the moment. Why else would I so strongly advocate a better way of life in this country if this is the country that I supposedly dislike? This country stands for freedom, but unfortunately, our current government doesn't stand for freedom. They're for war, censorship, oppression, hate, poverty, and greed. Our country was not built on those things and it's a damned shame that this is how our great country has become. You seem to be confusing my disdain for this current government and the evil things they do with my feelings for this country. I can have great respect for the office of the President, but I can also have a great deal of disgust for the man in the office of the presidency. I can support our troops, but I can also disagree with what they're fighting for. You need to learn to differentiate, it doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

Secondly, I've never made a big deal over taking "God" off of the dollar bill. I suspect you simply used that tidbit to bolster your post.

Thirdly, you're obviously confusing "Democrats" with "liberal thinkers." Democrats are not necessarily liberal thinkers, that's a fact. Maybe you the reason you don't like liberals or Democrats is because you don't know the difference between them. Like I said, differentiating is not your strong suit.

Lastly, I'm not expecting you to "get my logic." You say you're baffled by mine and I'm totally baffled by yours. You support this unjust war, you support writing hate into the Constitution that you as a citizen should uphold, you support the degradation of our environment, you support poverty and hunger, you support blurring the lines between church and state, and you support big business. We're at totally different ends of the spectrum. I'm an extreme liberal and you're an extreme conservative (whether you choose to admit it or not, you come off that way). I make no bones about my beliefs, I don't censor myself, and I call it as I see it, much like you say you do. You have every right to disagree with my beliefs and you have every right to discard my beliefs by calling them "crazy" (which also says a lot about you), but you certainly have no right whatsoever to question how I feel about this country. It's not cool and no matter how heated the discussions have gotten around here, never have I done so to you or anyone else. You've shown your true colors, pal.

[dissention]

Actually, my mom could not nurse, so I had a large Arfican American wet nurse who always had some of her kid or kids nursing, who I am confidant drank bourbon while nursing!!! So . . . . :woohoo:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DeeGeMe]

First of all, I am under no obligation to justify my stances for you, nor am I obligated to break down my patriotism for you. I find it rather insulting that you, on the basis that I am not a Republican and despise everything this administration stands for, have the balls to make like I do. There are many, many, many things I love about this country, which is why I'm so sad about the state of it at the moment. Why else would I so strongly advocate a better way of life in this country if this is the country that I supposedly dislike? This country stands for freedom, but unfortunately, our current government doesn't stand for freedom. They're for war, censorship, oppression, hate, poverty, and greed. Our country was not built on those things and it's a damned shame that this is how our great country has become. You seem to be confusing my disdain for this current government and the evil things they do with my feelings for this country. I can have great respect for the office of the President, but I can also have a great deal of disgust for the man in the office of the presidency. I can support our troops, but I can also disagree with what they're fighting for. You need to learn to differentiate, it doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

Secondly, I've never made a big deal over taking "God" off of the dollar bill. I suspect you simply used that tidbit to bolster your post.

Thirdly, you're obviously confusing "Democrats" with "liberal thinkers." Democrats are not necessarily liberal thinkers, that's a fact. Maybe you the reason you don't like liberals or Democrats is because you don't know the difference between them. Like I said, differentiating is not your strong suit.

Lastly, I'm not expecting you to "get my logic." You say you're baffled by mine and I'm totally baffled by yours. You support this unjust war, you support writing hate into the Constitution that you as a citizen should uphold, you support the degradation of our environment, you support poverty and hunger, you support blurring the lines between church and state, and you support big business. We're at totally different ends of the spectrum. I'm an extreme liberal and you're an extreme conservative (whether you choose to admit it or not, you come off that way). I make no bones about my beliefs, I don't censor myself, and I call it as I see it, much like you say you do. You have every right to disagree with my beliefs and you have every right to discard my beliefs by calling them "crazy" (which also says a lot about you), but you certainly have no right whatsoever to question how I feel about this country. It's not cool and no matter how heated the discussions have gotten around here, never have I done so to you or anyone else. You've shown your true colors, pal.

That's the best post I've seen anywhere in quite some time! That's sheer poetry, right there!

[DeeGeMe]

And oh yeah, I haven't seen the live action video but I've seen stills and I've got some of the same questions. Now I don't doubt for a minute that Muslims could kill an American--and they sure don't need a single reason to do so. But the timing alone of the release of this video is curious. And there are quite a few things about it that don't add up looking at the stills.

[dissention]

That's the best post I've seen anywhere in quite some time! That's sheer poetry, right there!

*takes a bow*

"It's the poet that I am, it's the way that I write..." :lol:

[dissention]

And oh yeah, I haven't seen the live action video but I've seen stills and I've got some of the same questions. Now I don't doubt for a minute that Muslims could kill an American--and they sure don't need a single reason to do so. But the timing alone of the release of this video is curious. And there are quite a few things about it that don't add up looking at the stills.

Exactly! That's all I was trying to say. It looks quite suspicious for some reason. For the life of me, I don't understand why he would be wearing a detainee jumpsuit.

[gldstwmn]

There are now several sites that have the video. I have no desire to see it.

P.S.--I'm a DU'er too! Big surprise there, huh?

So am I. Hehe. ;)

[gldstwmn]

To be honest, now that I have had time to digest what I saw, I have some serious reservations about it. Ther's no doubt that the poor man was murdered in a horrific manner, but I think the US has something to do with it. There are way too many things that don't make any sense in that video.
Yep. Here are my observations from the stills:
Is Al Qaida making county jail issue orange jumpsuits now? For people who are terrorists, supposedly undergound and hiding, they sure are fat. Why is the man in the left of the photo standing at "parade rest"? Why does all of their skin look so white? How come their web site was traced to Germany?

[gldstwmn]

"If anything, this murder should open people's eyes to what we are dealing with...religious fanaticism at it's most extreme."

You'd think so but a lot of people just don't get it. As my late mother used to say, right church, wrong pew. The unelected fraud is on a delusions of granduer trip that he's leading some kind of religious crusade.

[Rob67]

First of all, I am under no obligation to justify my stances for you, nor am I obligated to break down my patriotism for you. I find it rather insulting that you, on the basis that I am not a Republican and despise everything this administration stands for, have the balls to make like I do. There are many, many, many things I love about this country, which is why I'm so sad about the state of it at the moment. Why else would I so strongly advocate a better way of life in this country if this is the country that I supposedly dislike? This country stands for freedom, but unfortunately, our current government doesn't stand for freedom. They're for war, censorship, oppression, hate, poverty, and greed. Our country was not built on those things and it's a damned shame that this is how our great country has become. You seem to be confusing my disdain for this current government and the evil things they do with my feelings for this country. I can have great respect for the office of the President, but I can also have a great deal of disgust for the man in the office of the presidency. I can support our troops, but I can also disagree with what they're fighting for. You need to learn to differentiate, it doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

Haha....Why do Liberals get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with or challenges them? I can differentiate just fine. The trend of your posts have been hostile to the US and cordial when talking about ANYONE else....regardless of your hate for Bush (which is fine, I'm not the biggest fan either), you make this country out to be the evil empire which it most certainly is not. Although not perfect, we have been better then the rest...


Secondly, I've never made a big deal over taking "God" off of the dollar bill. I suspect you simply used that tidbit to bolster your post.

Oops...oh yes, you are right...I don't know if you ever used that example before...sorry. :rolleyes: Come on...it was a general point because you have ranted against religion in school and government before and we have had the "god" debate when discussing the "Passion". And...yeah...It bolstered my post rather well...ah, thank you.

Thirdly, you're obviously confusing "Democrats" with "liberal thinkers." Democrats are not necessarily liberal thinkers, that's a fact. Maybe you the reason you don't like liberals or Democrats is because you don't know the difference between them. Like I said, differentiating is not your strong suit.

:confused: :shrug:

Who said anything about Democrats and Republicans? I am not confusing anything. Check my post. My beef is with far Left and the religious far right. Yes...I think they hold some off the wall and crazy ideas that have no root in historical trends or fact. Differentiating is not one of my problems.

Lastly, I'm not expecting you to "get my logic." You say you're baffled by mine and I'm totally baffled by yours. You support this unjust war, you support writing hate into the Constitution that you as a citizen should uphold, you support the degradation of our environment, you support poverty and hunger, you support blurring the lines between church and state, and you support big business. We're at totally different ends of the spectrum. I'm an extreme liberal and you're an extreme conservative (whether you choose to admit it or not, you come off that way). I make no bones about my beliefs, I don't censor myself, and I call it as I see it, much like you say you do.

Interesting...could you mention specifics about my support for these various issues that you mention? I find it suprising that I support such things. The war aside. Hate in the Constitution? Degrading the environment? Poverty? Hunger? And...blurring the lines between Church & State??? :shrug: :]
Now I am intrigued...

You have every right to disagree with my beliefs and you have every right to discard my beliefs by calling them "crazy" (which also says a lot about you), but you certainly have no right whatsoever to question how I feel about this country. It's not cool and no matter how heated the discussions have gotten around here, never have I done so to you or anyone else. You've shown your true colors, pal.

I did call those theories crazy because that is what they are to me. I don't pretend to know you, only your views through your posts and some of them come across as crazy in my mind....like those that strange conspiracy theories that have absolutely no proof and are slanted against the US. You may be the sanest and nicest person on the planet in person, so I can't and won't insult you personally. Besides...I would never sink as low as comparing you to Stalin or anything because that's a tactic of the far left. I have shown my true colors...proudly. But not the way you have interpreted them. And...I have a right to question anything that is posted on this site...much the same way that you do. And you have no qualms about exercising that right on your behalf. So don't moan when someone else does it who disagrees.

:xoxo: :thumbsup:

Rob :cool:

[dissention]

Haha....Why do Liberals get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with or challenges them? I can differentiate just fine. The trend of your posts have been hostile to the US and cordial when talking about ANYONE else....regardless of your hate for Bush (which is fine, I'm not the biggest fan either), you make this country out to be the evil empire which it most certainly is not. Although not perfect, we have been better then the rest...

Regardless of my hate for Bush? Once again, learn to differentiate, it's not your strong suit. Bush is the president of our country at the moment. He speaks for us and his actions reflect on us. His administration is the closest thing to an evil empire that we've ever had. When someone speaks out critically, they are not criticizing this country and what it stands for, they're criticizing our current government. You don't seem to get it. They are not upholding the Constitution, they are not nurturing a free society, they are against all of it.

Oops...oh yes, you are right...I don't know if you ever used that example before...sorry. :rolleyes: Come on...it was a general point because you have ranted against religion in school and government before and we have had the "god" debate when discussing the "Passion". And...yeah...It bolstered my post rather well...ah, thank you.

I just find it funny that of all the things you could have used, you used such a minute point that I used in passing. Rather interesting, IMO, but I'm certainly not as concerned with it as you seem to think that I am.

:confused: :shrug:

Who said anything about Democrats and Republicans? I am not confusing anything. Check my post. My beef is with far Left and the religious far right. Yes...I think they hold some off the wall and crazy ideas that have no root in historical trends or fact. Differentiating is not one of my problems.

I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. Maybe you should chalk comprehension up as one of your weak points, too. I was speaking about liberals and Democrats; they are not mutually exclusive and being a Democrat doesn't make you a liberal. You don't seem to get that; you lump Democrats and liberals in the smae category whent hey can be just as different as a liberal and a conservative.

Interesting...could you mention specifics about my support for these various issues that you mention? I find it suprising that I support such things. The war aside. Hate in the Constitution? Degrading the environment? Poverty? Hunger? And...blurring the lines between Church & State??? :shrug: :]
Now I am intrigued...

Hmmm. I seem to remember you saying on numerous occasions that you'll vote for Bush no matter what. A vote for that man is a vote of support for all the things I've outlined above. But I suspect you can't differentiate that, huh? You've said before that you could care less about the Constitutional amendment to write hate into the Constitution because it wasn't an issue you cared about. Look at the poverty levels that we're currently at and look at what this admin. is doing to stop it. Look at what they're doing to the environment. If you're voting simply based on this joke of a war on terror, you're in need of help.

I did call those theories crazy because that is what they are to me. I don't pretend to know you, only your views through your posts and some of them come across as crazy in my mind....like those that strange conspiracy theories that have absolutely no proof and are slanted against the US. You may be the sanest and nicest person on the planet in person, so I can't and won't insult you personally. Besides...I would never sink as low as comparing you to Stalin or anything because that's a tactic of the far left. I have shown my true colors...proudly. But not the way you have interpreted them. And...I have a right to question anything that is posted on this site...much the same way that you do. And you have no qualms about exercising that right on your behalf. So don't moan when someone else does it who disagrees.

But you will sink to the level of questioning my feelings about our country, right? Gimme a break. It's not your place and you know it; I don't even go that far. You can call my theories and beliefs crazy, but you rarely explain your positions, except for the obligatory "I love Bush" propaganda. In any case, you can vote for the coke-snorting alcoholic and I'll vote for the man who'll turn our country around, John Kerry.

[DeeGeMe]

So am I. Hehe. ;)


Rock on Gold Dust Woman! And all of us DU/Ledgie's!

[dissention]

Rock on Gold Dust Woman! And all of us DU/Ledgie's!

Did you see how much it costs to run the DU every month?! I almost ****. Over $13,000!!! :shocked: Once I get my finances situated, I'll donate to it and The Ledge, that's some major steak.

[strandinthewind]

What is a "DU?"

[dissention]

What is a "DU?"

The fantabulous Democratic Underground, my dear.

http://www.democraticunderground.com

Check it out! If you want the real news and not the sanitized bull that the mainstream news feeds us, read it. You might feel out of place with the *extreme* liberalism over there (and I do mean EXTREME, your head will spin), but it's worth perusing. ;)

[strandinthewind]

The fantabulous Democratic Underground, my dear.

http://www.democraticunderground.com

Check it out! If you want the real news and not the sanitized bull that the mainstream news feeds us, read it. You might feel out of place with the *extreme* liberalism over there (and I do mean EXTREME, your head will spin), but it's worth perusing. ;)

. . . and pea soup will be projectile vomitted :laugh: Thanks!!!! I will check it out. BTW - for grins, you and you other crazy liberals (:laugh: :cool: ) should go to www.cbn.com for a good old fashioned hate site - Pat Robertson is the devil.

[dissention]

. . . and pea soup will be projectile vomitted :laugh: Thanks!!!! I will check it out. BTW - for grins, you and you other crazy liberals (:laugh: :cool: ) should go to www.cbn.com for a good old fashioned hate site - Pat Robertson is the devil.

Just because you linked to that site, Jason:

http://www.bettybowers.com/graphics/stonedings.gif

:wavey: :thumbsup:

[strandinthewind]

Just because you linked to that site, Jason:

http://www.bettybowers.com/graphics/stonedings.gif

:wavey: :thumbsup:

I LOVE LOVE LOVE BB!!!!!!!!!

:] :blob1: :blob2: :]

[DeeGeMe]

Did you see how much it costs to run the DU every month?! I almost ****. Over $13,000!!! :shocked: Once I get my finances situated, I'll donate to it and The Ledge, that's some major steak.


I made a donation to DU just yesterday. I couldn't believe how much it cost to run the site either. Those folks do a great job over there. And I need to make my Ledge donation too while I'm at it. These are my two favorite home-away-from homes!

[dissention]

I made a donation to DU just yesterday. I couldn't believe how much it cost to run the site either. Those folks do a great job over there. And I need to make my Ledge donation too while I'm at it. These are my two favorite home-away-from homes!

Oh, I know! They do a fantastic job and I'm over there just as much as I am here. :lol: I like to surf the DU while I'm listening to Randi. :thumbsup:

I'm going through all my bills and paying them (they're all a week late!) and it's driving me nuts. I need a respite. :laugh:

[DeeGeMe]

Have you seen the latest? A US Government spokesman in Iraq is denying that Berg was ever in US custody!

[gldstwmn]

Did you see how much it costs to run the DU every month?! I almost ****. Over $13,000!!! :shocked: Once I get my finances situated, I'll donate to it and The Ledge, that's some major steak.

DU has a lot of people on it. They do a lot of good work over there.

[gldstwmn]

Have you seen the latest? A US Government spokesman in Iraq is denying that Berg was ever in US custody!

Here we go. His parent's sued Rumsfeld for his release for cripes sake. This whole thing has gotten mind boggling. I'm sorry but we need to leave Iraq. Write them a check and leave. :distress:

[gldstwmn]

One more thing to add to this already boiling pot. It isn't really Al Qaida's style to behead now is it? Historically what we have seen from them is acts that will inflict the most casualties. No, the beheading thing is a favorite of another group-our old friends the Saudi's. Food for thought.

[The Tower]

Hmmm. I seem to remember you saying on numerous occasions that you'll vote for Bush no matter what. A vote for that man is a vote of support for all the things I've outlined above. But I suspect you can't differentiate that, huh? You've said before that you could care less about the Constitutional amendment to write hate into the Constitution because it wasn't an issue you cared about. Look at the poverty levels that we're currently at and look at what this admin. is doing to stop it. Look at what they're doing to the environment. If you're voting simply based on this joke of a war on terror, you're in need of help.

I think this is the single most important talking point of this election, bar none.

If you vote for Bush, you are supporting ALL of his repressive policies. If you think he's great on Iraq, be prepared to defend all the other crap that comes along with the package. A vote for Bush supports and encourages his entire administration- abysmal enviromental policies, scary threats to civil liberties, prejudicial persecution of gays.... the whole deal. JOHN F**KING ASHCROFT!!! :eek: A vote for Bush says that you want that piece of **** to be the enforcer of law in the U.S. Wake up, America!!!! Ya boneheads!!

[gldstwmn]

I think this is the single most important talking point of this election, bar none.

If you vote for Bush, you are supporting ALL of his repressive policies. If you think he's great on Iraq, be prepared to defend all the other crap that comes along with the package. A vote for Bush supports and encourages his entire administration- abysmal enviromental policies, scary threats to civil liberties, prejudicial persecution of gays.... the whole deal. JOHN F**KING ASHCROFT!!! :eek: A vote for Bush says that you want that piece of **** to be the enforcer of law in the U.S. Wake up, America!!!! Ya boneheads!!

:nod: :nod: :nod: Additionally, two words: SUPREME COURT.

[dissention]

Here we go. His parent's sued Rumsfeld for his release for cripes sake. This whole thing has gotten mind boggling. I'm sorry but we need to leave Iraq. Write them a check and leave. :distress:

:nod: :nod: :nod: There's an anonymous official who is now saying that Berg was told to leave Iraq and that he ignored them. Some of the things that are being said about this guy are cruel.

And, to add to an already long list of weird things on that tape, I read in the paper today that there is a time gap on the tape of 11 hours. The murderers make their statements and then it cuts to 11 hours later when the beheading takes place. The tape also cuts out before they lift up his head for the camera.

[DeeGeMe]

:nod: :nod: :nod: There's an anonymous official who is now saying that Berg was told to leave Iraq and that he ignored them. Some of the things that are being said about this guy are cruel.

And, to add to an already long list of weird things on that tape, I read in the paper today that there is a time gap on the tape of 11 hours. The murderers make their statements and then it cuts to 11 hours later when the beheading takes place. The tape also cuts out before they lift up his head for the camera.

This whole thing just keeps getting stranger and stranger. Why aren't the media asking the same questions we are?

[dissention]

This whole thing just keeps getting stranger and stranger. Why aren't the media asking the same questions we are?

They are, but very slowly and very matter-of-factly. :nod: There are some articles about how the media is catching on over on the DU, click on the Latest News. :D

[dissention]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/133/world/Questions_surround_young_Ameri:.shtml

Questions surround young American shown decapitated in video
By Robert H. Reid, Associated Press, 5/12/2004 17:09

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) The young American decapitated on a videotape posted by an al-Qaida-linked Web site was never in U.S. custody despite claims to the contrary by his family, U.S. authorities said Wednesday.

Statements by American officials in Iraq leave many unanswered questions, including why Iraqi police jailed Nicholas Berg for nearly two weeks and why U.S. officials repeatedly questioned him in custody.

Also unknown is where and under what circumstances Berg disappeared. He was last in contact with U.S. officials in Baghdad on April 10, and his body was found Saturday in Baghdad. Staff members at the $30-a-night Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad told The Associated Press that Berg stayed there for several days until April 10.

Two e-mails sent by Berg to his family and friends show the 26-year-old telecommunications expert traveled widely and unguarded in areas of Iraq a dangerous practice rarely done by Westerners.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's another burning question: how did they identify the body? The videotape wasn't released until Monday.

[dissention]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&ncid=718&e=2&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/fbi_berg

FBI: Agents Advised Berg to Leave Iraq

1 hour, 46 minutes ago Add White House - AP Cabinet & State to My Yahoo!
By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The FBI (news - web sites) warned Nicholas Berg shortly before his disappearance that Iraq (news - web sites) was too volatile a place for unprotected American civilians but he turned down a State Department offer to fly him home, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

Berg was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in the northern city of Mosul on March 24 and was released April 6.

FBI agents interviewed Berg three times while he was in the custody of Iraqi police, said a senior FBI official who spoke on condition of anonymity. The agents told him he was in a dangerous place and could be harmed, the official said.

A few days after his release, a U.S. consular officer offered Berg a chance to fly back to America but he declined, spokeswoman Kelly Shannon said.

"He told the consular officer that he planned to travel over land to Kuwait and would call the family from there," Shannon said.

Berg's family in West Chester, Pa., has said they did not hear from him after April 9. His decapitated body was discovered Saturday by U.S. military personnel.

A video posted Tuesday on a Web site linked to al-Qaida showed Berg beheaded by a group that said it was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The FBI will lead the investigation into Berg's death along with military, intelligence and other U.S. agencies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why the f*ck did they let a CIVILIAN into Iraq in the first place?! His family needs to sue the State Department.

[strandinthewind]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&ncid=718&e=2&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/fbi_berg

FBI: Agents Advised Berg to Leave Iraq

1 hour, 46 minutes ago Add White House - AP Cabinet & State to My Yahoo!
By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The FBI (news - web sites) warned Nicholas Berg shortly before his disappearance that Iraq (news - web sites) was too volatile a place for unprotected American civilians but he turned down a State Department offer to fly him home, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

Berg was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in the northern city of Mosul on March 24 and was released April 6.

FBI agents interviewed Berg three times while he was in the custody of Iraqi police, said a senior FBI official who spoke on condition of anonymity. The agents told him he was in a dangerous place and could be harmed, the official said.

A few days after his release, a U.S. consular officer offered Berg a chance to fly back to America but he declined, spokeswoman Kelly Shannon said.

"He told the consular officer that he planned to travel over land to Kuwait and would call the family from there," Shannon said.

Berg's family in West Chester, Pa., has said they did not hear from him after April 9. His decapitated body was discovered Saturday by U.S. military personnel.

A video posted Tuesday on a Web site linked to al-Qaida showed Berg beheaded by a group that said it was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The FBI will lead the investigation into Berg's death along with military, intelligence and other U.S. agencies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why the f*ck did they let a CIVILIAN into Iraq in the first place?! His family needs to sue the State Department.

Well, actually, the govt. tried to get him out, but he refused. As for how he got there, he may have flown in with work orders, etc. Or, unbekownest to the State Dept., he may have flown to a country that currently flies into Iraq - like how Americans currently get to Cuba - or into Turkey or Kuwaitt and then crossed the border. In any event, it is strange. We do not know all of the facts. From this and others I have read, he was warned not to stay, but did. I find it strange that someone would willingly walk through the highly explosive Sunni Triangle and then across 1,000 or more miles of desert to get to Kuwait. It sounds to me like he was a spy, smuggling something, or up to something. I mean why else would he do this and why wlse would the Iraqi's take him into custody and then let the FBI have access to him several times. Then he refuses help :shrug: I have not read where he was working in any official capacity. But, I have not read everything, etc. This keeps getting stranger and stranger :shrug:

[dissention]

Well, actually, the govt. tried to get him out, but he refused. As for how he got there, he may have flown in with work orders, etc. Or, unbekownest to the State Dept., he may have flown to a country that currently flies into Iraq - like how Americans currently get to Cuba - or into Turkey or Kuwaitt and then crossed the border. In any event, it is strange. We do not know all of the facts. From this and others I have read, he was warned not to stay, but did. I find it strange that someone would willingly walk through the highly explosive Sunni Triangle and then across 1,000 or more miles of desert to get to Kuwait. It sounds to me like he was a spy, smuggling something, or up to something. I mean why else would he do this and why wlse would the Iraqi's take him into custody and then let the FBI have access to him several times. Then he refuses help :shrug: I have not read where he was working in any official capacity. But, I have not read everything, etc. This keeps getting stranger and stranger :shrug:

He had no work orders, he went their to cash in on the rebuilding. The crossing the border theory doesn't fly because he emailed his family and said that in order to get home, he would have to go through Turkey; he said that a few days after he was supposedly asked by the State Department to return to the states. If he was warned not to stay but did anyway, the State Department had the power to physically put him on a plane and fly him home. The Iraqi's did not take him into custody; the US did. The US holds authority over and runs the Iraqi police force. Not only did the FBI have access to him, the CIA did, too. AND - the CIA and the FBI went to his family at home and grilled them about Berg and why he was in Iraq. Now, if the US claims that he wasn't int heir custody, it's proven to be a lie. He was wearing a US-issued detainee jumpsuit, his fmaily has emails from the State Department telling them that he was being held by the US, AND they filed suit against the State Department and Rumsfeld for holding him. Then, he is released the day after the lawsuit is filed. Oh, and he was working on the towers at Abu Ghairib, so he couldn't have sneaked in.

All I smell is fish.

[strandinthewind]

All I smell is fish.

I agreee, but his story is not jiving as well. I mean it is possible that the Iraqi police got a hold of him without the U.S. knowing and then they turned him over to them. I mean it is not like the country is running full steam ahead, etc. Moreover, just because someone sues the State Dept. does not mean the State Dept. is resp. Trust me, it happens to govt. Agencies daily. I think it will take awhile to get to the bottom of this. I mean he could have pissed someone off in a business venture and they told some bad person that he was a bad person, etc. As for the orange jumpsuit, it could have been obtained anywhere or stolen from the prisom by one of the Iraqi workers there and then put on him by his capturers. As for the email that he was going through Turkey, things could have changed, etc. Finally, his wanting to stay in Iraq is just fishy from both sides. Again, the facts should prove interesting.

[dissention]

I agreee, but his story is not jiving as well. I mean it is possible that the Iraqi police got a hold of him without the U.S. knowing and then they turned him over to them. I mean it is not like the country is running full steam ahead, etc. Moreover, just because someone sues the State Dept. does not mean the State Dept. is resp. Trust me, it happens to govt. Agencies daily. I think it will take awhile to get to the bottom of this. I mean he could have pissed someone off in a business venture and they told some bad person that he was a bad person, etc. As for the orange jumpsuit, it could have been obtained anywhere or stolen from the prisom by one of the Iraqi workers there and then put on him by his capturers. As for the email that he was going through Turkey, things could have changed, etc. Finally, his wanting to stay in Iraq is just fishy from both sides. Again, the facts should prove interesting.

The AP reported today that they contacted the Iraqi police that the official pointed them to and the Iraqi police said they never had any contact with him and that no one knows what they're talking about. And they couldn't have gotten him without the US knowing because the Americans are the ones in charge of the Iraqi police force.

Why would he say that he was going to sneak through Turkey to get home a few days after the US had offered him a ticket home?

AND the emails that the family has are from the PENTAGON.

[gldstwmn]

Well, actually, the govt. tried to get him out, but he refused. As for how he got there, he may have flown in with work orders, etc. :
The guy didn't even have a job in Iraq.

[gldstwmn]

I agreee, but his story is not jiving as well.
Dead men tell no tales.

[strandinthewind]

I agree - if he wantred to get out, he would have taken the offer. I think this guy perhaps was in espionage or some other activity. I mean it makes no sense to me. Something is not right and I do not think it is all the U.S. Govt. doing the lying. But and again, only time will, hopefully, tell.

Note: this is a horrible event that no one deserves. I am not taking away from that. I am, like others, commenting on the suspicious nature of this.

[strandinthewind]

I searched a few sites, and thought this article from Fox news ( I know I know :laugh: ) was very detailed. Apparently, he worked nights at the prison at issue for the mishandling of prisoners and had relatives in Iraq, which makes this just too weird and/or even weirder than before. So, for what it is worth, here it is:

FBI: Agents Urged Berg to Leave Iraq

Wednesday, May 12, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. authorities said Wednesday a young American who was beheaded by militants had been warned by the FBI to leave Iraq (search) and was offered a plane ride to safety at a time when a new wave of violence spread across the country, making road travel extremely dangerous.

Mystery surrounded not only Nicholas Berg's (search) disappearance but also why he had been held by Iraqi police for about two weeks and questioned by FBI agents three times. Berg's family disputed U.S. officials' claims that Berg was never in U.S. custody.

"The Iraqi police do not tell the FBI what to do, the FBI tells the Iraqi police what to do. Who do they think they're kidding?" Berg's father, Michael, told The Associated Press from his home in West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb.

Berg was last in contact with U.S. officials in Baghdad on April 10, and his body was found Saturday in Baghdad. Staff members at the $30-a-night Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad (search) told the AP that Berg stayed there for several days until April 10.

Two e-mails sent by Berg to his family and friends show the 26-year-old telecommunications expert traveled widely and unguarded throughout Iraq -- an unsafe practice rarely done by Westerners.

The FBI (search) warned Berg shortly before his disappearance that Iraq was too volatile a place for unprotected American civilians but he turned down a State Department offer to fly him home, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

Michael Berg said his son refused a U.S. offer in early April to board an outbound charter jet because he believed travel to the airport was too dangerous. American soldiers refer to the airport highway as "RPG Alley" because of frequent attacks by insurgents firing rocket-propelled grenades.

According to the State Department, Berg told an American diplomat in Baghdad that he preferred to travel on his own to Kuwait.

"At that time, the U.S. consular officer extended an offer to assist Mr. Berg to depart Iraq by plane to Jordan," said State Department spokeswoman Kelly Shannon. "We'd already discussed that possibility with his family, and we mentioned that to him, obviously, when we talked to him on the 10th."

His family said Berg had already intended to leave the country on March 30 but that his detention prevented him from doing so.

Berg first worked in Iraq in December and January and returned in March. He was inspecting communications facilities, some of which were destroyed in the war or by looters.

During his time in Iraq, he struggled with the Arabic language and worked at night on a tower in Abu Ghraib, a site of repeated attacks on U.S. convoys and the location of the notorious prison where U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi inmates.

Michael Berg told the AP that Nicholas' paternal aunt, now dead, married an Iraqi man named Mudafer, who became close to Nicholas. In one of the e-mails, Nicholas Berg describes going to the northern city of Mosul, where he introduced himself to Mudafer's brother, identified as Moffak Mustaffa.

"We got along splendidly," Berg wrote. "We spent a few hours and I helped him establish an e-mail account."

Berg notes that "my presence ... made him more concerned (about his own safety and probably mine too) than I've been the entire time I've been here."

The young man was beheaded on a video posted Tuesday on a Web site. It bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American," referring to an associate of Usama bin Laden believed behind a wave of homicide bombings in Iraq.

In Washington, Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it was likely that al-Zarqawi himself was "the lead perpetrator." Al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian, is wanted in the killing of an American diplomat in Jordan in 2002 and is suspected of ordering many homicide bombings in Iraq.

U.S. spokesmen Dan Senor and Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt were quick to offer statements of condolence to his family and to draw attention to the barbarity of his death. Senor also said that "to my knowledge" Berg was not affiliated with any U.S. or coalition organization, nor was he ever in U.S. custody.

However, Senor said Iraqi police arrested Berg in Mosul on March 24 because local authorities believed he may have been involved in "suspicious activities."

Senor refused to say more, citing the sensitivity of the case. But he did confirm that the Americans were aware Berg was in custody.

"U.S. authorities were notified," he said. "The FBI visited Mr. Berg on three occasions and determined that he was not involved with any criminal or terrorist activity."

In a statement, the FBI said that its agents "encouraged him to accept [the] ... offer to facilitate his safe passage out of Iraq. Mr. Berg refused these offers."

Berg was released April 6 and checked into the Baghdad hotel.

Senor referred questions about the reason for Berg's detention to the Iraqi police. In Mosul, however, police told the AP they had no knowledge of the Berg case. Police official Safwan Talal said the only American arrested there in recent months was a woman who was released soon afterward.

Since Iraq remains under U.S. military occupation, it seems unlikely that the Iraqi police would have held Berg, or any other American, for such a length of time without at least the tacit approval of U.S. authorities.

Berg told his family that U.S. officials took custody of him soon after his arrest and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer, his father said.

Kimmitt said U.S. forces kept tabs on Berg during his confinement to make sure he was being fed and properly treated because "he was an American citizen."

But the three FBI visits suggest American authorities were concerned about more than Berg's well-being. They may have had their own suspicions about what the young American was doing in Iraq.

During a briefing Wednesday, Senor confirmed that Berg had registered with the U.S. Consulate in Baghdad but insisted he "was not a U.S. government employee, he has no affiliation with the coalition and to our knowledge he has no affiliation with any Coalition Provisional Authority contractor."

He also stated that Berg "was at no time under the jurisdiction or detention of coalition forces."

However, in a Jan. 18 e-mail, Berg said his company had been announced as an approved subcontractor for a broadcast consortium awarded a contract for the U.S.-controlled Iraqi Media Network.

"Practically, this means we should be involved with quite a bit of tower work as part of the reconstruction, repair and new construction of the Iraqi Media Network," he wrote, referring to the network as "something like NPR in the U.S."

It was unclear whether the contract was revoked.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity.

On April 5, the Bergs sued the government in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally. In a writ filed April 5 in U.S. District Court in Philadelphia, the Bergs said the State Department told them their son "is currently detained in Mosul, Iraq, by the United States military" and that American diplomats "no longer" had "any authority or power to intervene" on his behalf.

Berg was released the day after the suit was filed. His family said he told them he had not been mistreated. They did not hear from him after April 9 -- when violence flared in Iraq because of the U.S. Marine siege of Fallujah and a Shiite uprising in the south.

Several days later, however, diplomats received an e-mail from Berg's family that "noted he had not been in contact," Shannon said.

On April 14, the consulate sent a private contractor to the Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad, where Berg was believed to be staying, to see if he was still there.

"The people we talked to at the hotel didn't remember him being there," Shannon said.

Diplomats then alerted the U.S. military to be on the lookout for him.

But hotel staffers, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg stayed in room 602 from April 6 until April 10. One of them said Berg lived in the same room during an earlier visit, which the employee could not remember.

An employee described Berg as a "nice guy" who "always smiled and said hello," unlike other foreign guests. "Once he told me, 'I'd like to learn Arabic."'

"He was very sportive -- had muscles -- and liked the Internet," another hotel worker recalled. "He usually left the hotel in the morning and returned late, around 10 p.m., usually carrying a sack of beer and mineral water."

[gldstwmn]

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38454

A time for truth

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 12, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

With pictures of the sadistic sexual abuse of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison still spilling out onto the front pages, it is not too early to draw some conclusions.

The neoconservative hour is over. All the blather about "empire," our "unipolar moment," "Pax Americana" and "benevolent global hegemony" will be quietly put on a shelf and forgotten as infantile prattle.

America is not going to fight a five- or 10-year war in Iraq. Nor will we be launching any new invasions soon. The retreat of American empire, begun at Fallujah, is underway.

With a $500 billion deficit, we do not have the money for new wars. With an Army of 480,000 stretched thin, we do not have the troops. With April-May costing us a battalion of dead and wounded, we are not going to pay the price. With the squalid photos from Abu Ghraib, we no longer have the moral authority to impose our "values" on Iraq.

Bush's "world democratic revolution" is history.

Given the hatred of the United States and Bush in the Arab world, as attested to by Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, it is almost delusional to think Arab peoples are going to follow America's lead.

It is a time for truth. In any guerrilla war we fight, there is going to be a steady stream of U.S. dead and wounded. There is going to be collateral damage – i.e., women and children slain and maimed. There will be prisoners abused. And inevitably, there will be outrages by U.S. troops enraged at the killing of comrades and the jeering of hostile populations. If you would have an empire, this goes with the territory. And if you are unprepared to pay the price, give it up.

The administration's shock and paralysis at publication of the S&M photos from Abu Ghraib tell us we are not up to it. For what is taking place in Iraq is child's play compared to what we did in the Philippines a century ago. Only there, they did not have digital cameras, videocams and the Internet.

Iraq was an unnecessary war that may become one of the great blunders in U.S. history. That the invasion was brilliantly conceived and executed by Gen. Franks, that our fighting men were among the finest we ever sent to war, that they have done good deeds and brave acts, is undeniable. Yet, if recent surveys are accurate, the Iraqis no longer want us there.

Outside the Kurdish areas, over 80 percent of Sunnis and Shias view us as occupiers. Over 50 percent believe there are occasions when U.S. soldiers deserve killing. The rejoicing around every destroyed military vehicle where U.S. soldiers have died should tell us that the battle for hearts and minds is being lost.

Why are we so hated in the Middle East? Three fundamental reasons:



Our invasion of Iraq is seen as a premeditated and unjust war to crush a weak Arab nation that had not threatened or attacked us, to seize its oil.

We are seen as an arrogant imperial superpower that dictates to Arab peoples and sustains regimes that oppress them.

We are seen as the financier and armorer of an Israel that oppresses and robs Palestinians of their land and denies them rights we hypocritically preach to the world.

Until we address these perceptions and causes of the conflict between us, we will not persuade the Arab world to follow us.

What should Bush do now? He should declare that the United States has no intention of establishing permanent bases in Iraq, and that we intend to withdraw all U.S. troops after elections, if the Iraqis tell us to leave. Then we should schedule elections at the earliest possible date this year.

The Iraqi peoples should then be told that U.S. soldiers are not going to fight and die indefinitely for their freedom. If they do not want to be ruled by Sheik Moqtada al-Sadr or some future Saddam, they will have to fight themselves. Otherwise, they will have to live with them, even as they lived with Saddam. For in the last analysis, it is their country, not ours.

The president should also offer to withdraw U.S. forces from any Arab country that wishes us to leave. We have already pulled out of Saudi Arabia. Let us pull out of the rest unless they ask that we remain. Our military presence in these Arab and Islamic countries, it would seem, does less to prevent terror attacks upon us than to incite them.

A presidential election is where the great foreign-policy debate should take place over whether to maintain U.S. troops all over the world, or bring them home and let other nations determine their own destiny. Unfortunately, we have two candidates and two parties that agree on our present foreign policy that is conspicuously failing.

[strandinthewind]

I still maintain there is no conclusive evidence that we are after Iraq's oil and that this argument is a red herring. I mean we gave, not loaned, the country billions (albeit to rebuild it) and we are turning a significant part of the government over to Iraq on June 30, with elections early next year. We have not asked for a dime in oil revenue for this. Thus, I just do not buy this argument.

Interestingly and despite W's claims that the world loves us despite his "go it alone no matter what the cost - you are either with us or against us" policy, only three Arab states have condemned the beheading of Mr. Berg - http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html and our European allies have not been, to say the least, highly vocal about it and some have made no comment.

That is scary!!!

[strandinthewind]

Another article about Mr. Berg from the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/13/national/13BERG.html?ex=1085447497&ei=1&en=06ce149d544a3e45
_________________________________________________________
U.S. Officials Failed to Protect Slain Civilian, Family Says

May 13, 2004
By RICHARD LEZIN JONES and JILL P. CAPUZZO

WEST WHITELAND, Pa., May 12 - The family of Nicholas E.
Berg challenged American military officials on Wednesday, insisting that the man beheaded by Islamic terrorists in Iraq had earlier been in the custody of federal officials who should have done more to protect him.

Mr. Berg's brother, David, emerged from the family's split-level house in this Philadelphia suburb with a four-page e-mail message that he said his younger brother, Nicholas, had sent hours after being freed on April 6 from a jail in Mosul, Iraq.

The Iraqi police took Nicholas Berg, 26, into custody on
March 24 and held him in a jail that he described in the message as managed by Iraqis with oversight from United States Military Police forces. He wrote that federal agents had questioned his reasons for being in Iraq, whether he had ever built a pipe bomb or had been in Iran.

"They can detain him and deny him his basic civil rights of
a lawyer, a phone call or even a charge for 13 days, but
they can't get him" on a plane, David Berg said.

Apparently in a response to the accusations that the
actions of the military in Iraq exposed their son to
worsening danger, the F.B.I. released a statement saying
that Nicholas Berg had not heeded warnings and that he had declined assistance in leaving Iraq.

The conflicting accounts continued to swirl around Mr.
Berg's detention and release. In Baghdad, a senior adviser
for the Coalition Provisional Authority, Dan Senor,
repeated that Mr. Berg had never been in military custody.

"My understanding," Mr. Senor said of the Iraqi police, "is that they suspected that he was involved/engaged in suspicious activities. U.S. authorities were notified. The F.B.I. visited with Mr. Berg on three occasions when he was in Iraqi police detention and determined that he was not involved with any criminal or terrorist activities. Mr. Berg was released on April 6, and it is my understanding he was advised to leave the country."

That position prompted the family's decision to read Mr. Berg's e-mail message to The New York Times. In it, he described the presence of American military police officers, as well as the federal agents' visits, to the Mosul jail.

"The Iraqi police is mentioned frequently, which is, of course, absurd, because there is no Iraqi government right now," David Berg said. "And if you think about it, to be detained by the Iraqi police without the U.S. government's knowing would be tantamount to kidnapping."

Officials did acknowledge the presence of the military police at the jail but said their sole function was to "monitor his treatment."

To the family, the oversight question is paramount because they say not only that his detention was unlawful, but also that it further threatened his safety. The Bergs have said the detention prevented him from leaving Iraq before the violence grew in Baghdad and Falluja.

The F.B.I. statement, though, said that coalition authorities had offered "to facilitate his safe passage out of Iraq," but that Mr. Berg refused their help.

Recalling his brother's independent personality, David Berg said such a refusal would not surprise his family, although he said he had no way of knowing whether Nicholas Berg had declined help. He had traveled to Iraq, in part, to generate business for his fledgling telecommunications company, which specializes in servicing radio towers. After an earlier visit, Mr. Berg returned to Iraq on March 14.

In the message dated April 6, addressed to his parents, brother and sister, Mr. Berg described the 13 days that he spent in the Shirdta Iraqiyah station near Mosul, an Iraqi detention center where, he said, the United States Military Police supervised and trained the Iraqi officers.

"The M.P.'s were a little surprised to see an American in civilian clothing, and I think out of formality and boredom they decided to do a background check, which involved C.I.D.," he wrote, referring to the Army Criminal Investigation Division.

The next morning, Mr. Berg described F.B.I. agents' questioning as amicable, but pointed. Among the questions asked, he wrote, were: "Why was I in Iraq? Did I ever make a pipe bomb? Why was I in Iran?"

He conjectured that their questions arose from some Farsi literature and a book about Iran that he had. Mr. Berg wrote that after four days he was transferred to a cellblock that included prisoners charged with petty offenses and suspected "war criminals."

"Word had spread due to the presence of certain items amongst my stuff that I was Israeli," Mr. Berg wrote. "So I felt a bit like Arlo Guthrie walking into a jail full of mother rapers and father stabbers as an accused litterbug."


The American military police, in fact, "were pretty stand-up," he wrote. "They heard the chants of Yehudien, Israelein, and told the I.P. prison staff to put me in my own cell."

"I did get on much friendlier terms with the other prisoners after they discovered I could speak a little Arabic and verified I didn't have horns or anything," Mr. Berg said.

He described the conditions for other prisoners and their treatment, depending sometimes on nationality. The others, he wrote, were behind closed cell doors and had no time outdoors. Some prisoners, considered political or suspected war criminals from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran "had been in custody for 40 days without a single interpreter interrogation, just waiting as they still do today, and the Iraqi guards treat these poor fellows - especially the Hindis among them - as real dogs.'

Mr. Berg was released on April 6, a day after his family filed a suit against the United States government seeking to have him freed.

"I hope to catch an opening on the next available Royal Jordanian flight out of Amman this Thursday as long as my ticket is still transferable," he wrote in the message. "Dad, Mom I will e-mail or call you with exact itinerary as soon as I have it."

He was seen by friends immediately after leaving the jail. In Baghdad, one friend, Andrew Robert Duke, who stayed at Al Fanar Tower Hotel, where he met Mr. Berg last month, recalled how much he was anticipating returning home when they had their last beer together on April 9.

"We talked about how he was looking forward to having children with a woman that he had not discovered yet," Mr. Duke, 49, said. "But with the money he was going to make here, he would be able to afford a family."

The men sat at a round glass-top coffee table on the sixth floor of the hotel. Mr. Berg told Mr. Duke that he was planning to go on a holiday to Turkey and maybe do some sailing. They finished their drinks, and Mr. Berg rose to go.

"I walked him to my door," Mr. Duke said. "Watched him open his door. I said: `Good luck, my friend. Stay in touch.' He said, `I am looking forward to it.' "

Mr. Berg was often seen socializing in the dining room or at the computers next to the lobby. Of muscular build, he often wore a baseball cap, a T-shirt cut off at the shoulders and tattered blue jeans.

"He came and went by himself," said a hotel office manager who gave first name as Ahmed. The hotel staff cleared out his room, 602, and stowed a set of weights that Mr. Berg had left.

Red-haired and charming, he was described as friendly with workers and guests, chatting about subjects like Aerosmith and Philadelphia museums. "He never talked about the war or said anything bad about Iraqis," Hugo Infante, a Chilean who works for United Press International, said.

"Just yesterday we realized he was killed," Mr. Infante said. "I saw his name on the Web site. When I saw the name, I said it was not possible it is Nick. Then I saw the face. He looked skinnier and paler."

Mr. Berg's friends and acquaintances at the hotel said he was working on communications towers for some Baghdad hotels. Mr. Infante said he last saw Mr. Berg on April 10, writing an e-mail message to his family. "I saw him there," he said, gesturing to the Internet cafe. "I said, `Hello, how are you?'

"And he said, `I want to go home.' "

Christine Hauser contributed reporting from Baghdad for
this article.

[dissention]

I still maintain there is no conclusive evidence that we are after Iraq's oil and that this argument is a red herring. I mean we gave, not loaned, the country billions (albeit to rebuild it) and we are turning a significant part of the government over to Iraq on June 30, with elections early next year. We have not asked for a dime in oil revenue for this. Thus, I just do not buy this argument.

You read that part of the article out of context. The writer wasn't talking about proof, he was talking about the perception of us that is in the Middle East. You can't possibly refute that. And I contest that we are in their for oil, just look at the names of the very first camps we built in Iraq: Shell and Exxon. ;)

[dissention]

Interestingly and despite W's claims that the world loves us despite his "go it alone no matter what the cost - you are either with us or against us" policy, only three Arab states have condemned the beheading of Mr. Berg - http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html and our European allies have not been, to say the least, highly vocal about it and some have made no comment.

That is scary!!!

Did you see the cartoon on the front page of the most popular French paper yesterday? They had a drawing of the Iraqi standing on a box with a hood and electrical wires connected to him and then had Bush and his cronies dressed in Ku Klux Klan garb with "Bush Klux Klan" labeled on it. :shocked:

[strandinthewind]

You read that part of the article out of context. The writer wasn't talking about proof, he was talking about the perception of us that is in the Middle East. You can't possibly refute that. And I contest that we are in their for oil, just look at the names of the very first camps we built in Iraq: Shell and Exxon. ;)

I know - I was respondin regarding why I thought the perception was wrong. I mean clearly we would not be there in such force if Iraq was not one of the most oil rich nations in the world, although we have helped poor nations in the past (Somolia, Bosnia, Panama, etc.). I am just saying if we are there to take their oil, we could have bought it (Iraq) for less than what we spent invading it to get the oil and the oil will never produce enough revenue to pay for what we spent :shrug: Also, the first companies there were oil companies because they had to repair the neglected oil fields to start Iraq's only export and, thus, its economy. I mean that makes sense to me and, again, the US is giving the proceeds of the sale of the oil to the Iraqi people. I guess we are making tax revenue from the profits from the American companies there. But, a less than 10% or so rate of return on the billions spent is hardly what I would call taking the oil for our own use. Moreover, the oil companies are helping the Iraqi economy by employing Iraqi people and they are also teaching them how to mine the oil, which are both good things. So, I conclude we are not after their oil.

[strandinthewind]

BTW - Shell is, I believe, a Dutch company :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Did you see the cartoon on the front page of the most popular French paper yesterday? They had a drawing of the Iraqi standing on a box with a hood and electrical wires connected to him and then had Bush and his cronies dressed in Ku Klux Klan garb with "Bush Klux Klan" labeled on it. :shocked:

Oh the bribe taking French - we should have posted similar cartoons when they actually tortured a la SH prisoners in their day as a superpower. Yet, the French remain rank with their hypocrisy :rolleyes:

[dissention]

I know - I was respondin regarding why I thought the perception was wrong. I mean clearly we would not be there in such force if Iraq was not one of the most oil rich nations in the world, although we have helped poor nations in the past (Somolia, Bosnia, Panama, etc.). I am just saying if we are there to take their oil, we could have bought it (Iraq) for less than what we spent invading it to get the oil and the oil will never produce enough revenue to pay for what we spent :shrug: Also, the first companies there were oil companies because they had to repair the neglected oil fields to start Iraq's only export and, thus, its economy. I mean that makes sense to me and, again, the US is giving the proceeds of the sale of the oil to the Iraqi people. I guess we are making tax revenue from the profits from the American companies there. But, a less than 10% or so rate of return on the billions spent is hardly what I would call taking the oil for our own use. Moreover, the oil companies are helping the Iraqi economy by employing Iraqi people and they are also teaching them how to mine the oil, which are both good things. So, I conclude we are not after their oil.

Do you think Bush gives a **** if the US spends more than it can make back? Regardless, he's still going to profit from any oil that is brought into this country via Iraq, as will Dick Cheney. I've always thought that the reason we're in there with such force and are spending so money is to off-set any criticism about being in there for oil, which is what we're in there for.

[dissention]

Oh the bribe taking French - we should have posted similar cartoons when they actually tortured a la SH prisoners in their day as a superpower. Yet, the French remain rank with their hypocrisy :rolleyes:

Well, they have every right to print such a cartoon. Regardless if I disagree with it (which, SHOCK, I do), I'm not going to lecture them or show any disgust over it, especially after the cartoons and things that have been printed about them. I saw one cartoon last year in the Post that compared all of the French to flea-infested dogs. Tit for tat, my man.

[dissention]

BTW - Shell is, I believe, a Dutch company :shrug:

It's Dutch, but the British Royal Fmaily owns most of it. Back in the thirties, profits from Shell were used to help Hitler gain power and lots of the money found its way into a certain Farish-Bush alliance, with most of it being used to benefit Prescott Bush's fraudulent bank that was a front for Nazi's.

[strandinthewind]

Do you think Bush gives a **** if the US spends more than it can make back? Regardless, he's still going to profit from any oil that is brought into this country via Iraq, as will Dick Cheney. I've always thought that the reason we're in there with such force and are spending so money is to off-set any criticism about being in there for oil, which is what we're in there for.

Well, I see your point, but don't you think there were easier ways to siphon govt. money to Halliburton? But, the $150,000 a year Cheney gets as deferred compensation from Halliburton seems irrelevant when you consider the man is worth many tens of millions of dollars. YEs, he has about $18 million in remaing Halliburton stock options, but he has publicly said he will give these to charity when they come due, etc. To wit:

Cheney earned forty-four million dollars during his tenure at Halliburton. Although he has said that he “severed all my ties with the company,” he continues to collect deferred compensation worth approximately a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, and he retains stock options worth more than eighteen million dollars. He has announced that he will donate proceeds from the stock options to charity.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040216fa_fact

So, I am unsure how Cheney directly financially benefits to any significant degree from Hallibutron's activities in Iraq or elsewhwhere.

As for W making money off of oil, I do not think he has any direct oil interests does he. I mean his oil company failed and he screwed his investors by getting out beforehand. But, as of now, I cannot think of any direct revemue to him from the sale of oil. But, I could be misremembering.

Again, I think all of these things add up to us being in Iraq for reasons other than oil, although and again, we would not be there in such force but for their oil and its effect on the world's economy. I also think stabilizing the world's economy is a good thing, but perhaps not the way W did it.

[strandinthewind]

It's Dutch, but the British Royal Fmaily owns most of it. Back in the thirties, profits from Shell were used to help Hitler gain power and lots of the money found its way into a certain Farish-Bush alliance, with most of it being used to benefit Prescott Bush's fraudulent bank that was a front for Nazi's.

Again, just about every other U.S. company was in bed with the Nazis in the 30's and the beginning of the 40's as the U.S. was purportedly neutral until on or around Dec. 7, 1941 :shrug: So, it is unfair IMO to single out one of many many others.

[dissention]

Again, just about every other U.S. company was in bed with the Nazis in the 30's and the beginning of the 40's as the U.S. was purportedly neutral until on or around Dec. 7, 1941 :shrug: So, it is unfair IMO to single out one of many many others.

I'm not singling anyone out, I'm pointing out that the Bush's have done quite a bit of business with Shell oil, which may account for Shell's presence in Iraq. If they hadn't, they wouldn't be rich like they are today and they wouldn't be infiltrating our government.

And here I sit, waiting until 2036 when Jenna Bush is elected president and I move to Canada. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

I'm not singling anyone out, I'm pointing out that the Bush's have done quite a bit of business with Shell oil, which may account for Shell's presence in Iraq. If they hadn't, they wouldn't be rich like they are today and they wouldn't be infiltrating our government.

And here I sit, waiting until 2036 when Jenna Bush is elected president and I move to Canada. :lol:

At least she knows how to have good time and likes, apprantly, a margarita :woohoo: or was that the other one - who will be VP to Jenna's P. :cool:

[dissention]

At least she knows how to have good time and likes, apprantly, a margarita :woohoo: or was that the other one - who will be VP to Jenna's P. :cool:

:lol: With our luck, we'll get the Bush girl that married the drug dealer and became a crack addict. That one's a real pill.

[strandinthewind]

:lol: With our luck, we'll get the Bush girl that married the drug dealer and became a crack addict. That one's a real pill.

Bless her heart, did you see Noel's mugshot :laugh:

[dissention]

Bless her heart, did you see Noel's mugshot :laugh:

:nod: I'd like Conan to blend that mugshot with Nolte's mugshot for his "If They Mated" segment. :laugh:

Check this out:

http://www.aztlan.net/fake_video.htm

Berg Decapitation Video
Declared A Fraud By Doctor
La Voz De Aztlan
News Bulletin
5-13-4

The first casualty of war is the truth and this one has been no exception. La Voz de Aztlan obtained a copy of the video showing the beheading of American Nick Berg of Philadelphia and immediately something very odd was readily apparent. Not only were the purported screams of Nick Berg not in synchrony with the decapitation but their was also a total lack of blood spurting out as his jugular and other veins and arteries were being cut.

We forwarded the video to Doctor Raul Castro Guevara, a surgeon and forensic expert in Mexico City for his expert opinion. He wrote back and commented, "No hay manera que el individuo en el video estaba vivo y su corazon funcionando cuando le estaban cortando la cabeza. En estos casos, el corazon impela sangre con gran presion, y se corta las arterias del pezqueso, hay una gran cantidad de sangre que salpica por todos lados. En mi opinion el video es un fraude."

Doctor Raul Castro Guevara is saying that there is no way that the individual in the video was alive and his heart pumping while his neck was being cut. The doctor adds that in these cases, while the heart is pumping, cutting a person artery in the neck, would cause copious amounts of blood to spurt all over the immediate environment. He says that in his opinion the video is a fraud.

We hope that our readers view the video and see for themselves. We will provide a copy to any of our subscribers that have been supportive of our publication. Send a request to La Voz de Aztlan at [email protected]

If you are able to view the video, please pay close attention to the five so called Al queda terrorists making the political statement. Look at their height, weight, skin color and their mannerisms. Do you think these people are Arabs or Iraqis?

La Voz de Aztlan
http://www.aztlan.net/fake_video.htm

[strandinthewind]

EEK - well I hope he was dead when they did it. But, still YIPES!!!!!!!

[dissention]

Chew on this, too, they can't still possibly claim he wasn't in US custody:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.berg13may13,0,1712176.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

The victim: More than work drew him to Iraq
Berg took risks around the world
By John Woestendiek, Scott Calvert and Pat Meisol
Sun Staff
Originally published May 13, 2004

Nick Berg was a big-hearted risk-taker - intent on making the world a better place, willing to do the heavy lifting to make that happen and daring enough to go almost anywhere to do it.

As his body arrived at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware yesterday, friends and co-workers recalled Berg, 26, as a good-natured, adventurous young man whose solo journey to war-torn Iraq was not exclusively for monetary gain.

That assessment was echoed by the White House: "Nick Berg wanted to build a free Iraq for the Iraqi people ... He was an innocent civilian seeking to help," spokesman Scott McClellan said.

President Bush also addressed the videotaped and Internet-posted beheading of Berg for the first time since his body was discovered Saturday near an overpass in Mosul in northern Iraq.

"Their intention is to shake our will. ... Yet by their actions they remind us of how desperately parts of the world need free societies. ... We will complete our mission," he said.

A fuller picture of the suburban Philadelphia businessman - a backer of Bush and a supporter of the war - emerged yesterday, with the release of e-mails that he had written during the first of his two trips to Iraq, one of which describes a damaged radio tower at Abu Ghraib prison.

Berg's father, a retired schoolteacher who opposes the war and sports an anti-Bush bumper sticker on his car, said in an interview with the Associated Press that U.S. officials are responsible for the abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib that led - according to the executioners - to his son's death.

"Nick died for the sins of the Bush administration," Michael Berg said.

Dozens of news media vehicles were outside the Berg's split-level home in West Chester, Pa., yesterday, where a funeral director visited the family.

A private memorial service for Berg - limited to friends and family - is scheduled tomorrow afternoon, said Carl Goldstein, of Goldsteins' Rosenberg's Raphael-Sacks funeral home. "The family is very happy Nick is back in the United States," he said.

Berg, who operated a small communications company from his family's home, first went to Baghdad in late December, returning Feb. 1. In March, he returned to Iraq, but after having trouble finding work there, he told his parents that he would be home by the end of the month.

Detained in Mosul

On March 24, he was detained by Iraqi police in Mosul in a late night sweep. He was released on April 6 after his parents filed alawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that the U.S. military was illegally holding him.

U.S. officials say he was never in the custody of coalition forces. While in Iraqi police custody, they said, he was interviewed three times by FBI agents who were suspicious of his identity and warned that the country was too dangerous for unprotected Americans. He was offered a free flight home, but he declined, officials said.

But Hugo Infante, a Chilean reporter who got to know Berg in Baghdad, told Newsday that Berg recounted that Iraqi police had quickly handed him to U.S authorities in Mosul and that he had been held the entire time in a jail where U.S. soldiers were his guards.

Berg contacted his parents April 9, but he was not heard from again.

U.S. troops discovered his decapitated body Saturday.

A video posted Tuesday on a Web site linked to al-Qaida depicted the beheading by a group that said it was avenging the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

'An adventurous sort'

The youngest of three children, Berg attended Cornell University, Drexel University, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma. He didn't receive a degree from any of them, but he did find his niche - rigging and repairing telecommunications equipment, some of it hundreds of feet above the ground.

In 2000, he helped set up the electronics equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia.

Two years ago, he formed a small company in Pennsylvania, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, named after a character from Greek mythology who stole fire from the gods and brought it to mortals for their use.

Acquaintances describe Berg as equal parts entrepreneur and good Samaritan. He liked lifting weights, enjoyed comedy and had a passion for taking modern technology to Third-World countries. Friends and family say Berg did volunteer work in Kenya and Ghana, where he taught villagers how to make bricks and drill for water.

"He was an adventurous sort. You kind of have to be if you're going to be climbing these big towers 500 to 1,000 feet up in the air, hanging only by a sling," said Walt Billings, a colleague of Berg's who, along with fellow employee Ed Bukont, turned down the Pennsylvania man's invitation to join him in Iraq.

Billings said Berg worked as a subcontractor for a division of his Baltimore-based company, Total Engine Service and Supply Co.

"He did tower work for radio and television stations. He went up the towers and did all the work associated with that," Billings said. "He knew his work was going to be in demand in Iraq, and that it was going to pay quite handsomely.

'On his own'

"We chose not to go just because of the deteriorating circumstances and concern for life and limb. It's a war zone. We saw it a little bit differently than Nick saw it.

"He wasn't attached to any particular company. He was there on his own," Billings said. "But it's not like he was bumming around looking for a job. He was a specialist in tower work, and one of the first contracts being released was for rebuilding of the radio station infrastructure. He wanted to be in the country, on the ground, when that work started to take off."

Because of increasing security concerns, though, the work never took off, leaving Berg in limbo, Billings said.

"It kept getting pushed back. I'm sure he wasn't hanging around because he wanted to hang around. I'm sure he was waiting for that opportunity to break."

Billings said Berg had done work for his company for about a year and a half. He said he had three jobs waiting for Berg once he came back.

Jeff Loughridge, chief engineer for Infinity Stations, based in Washington, also hired Berg for tower work.

"It started as a business relationship, but he became a very trusted friend," he said. "It takes a unique individual when you are having someone do work 500 feet in the air. You have to find someone you trust. They don't come along all the time, Nick was one of these people. I could trust him to do it top drawer."

E-mail from Iraq

When Berg helped install a communication system in Kenya last year, Loughridge said, he would send his clients e-mail about his adventures there and the work he was doing.

He continued that practice in Iraq.

"About Iraq ... I am taking photos - where allowed," he wrote during his trip in January. "It's actually pretty sad - I just got off one of two 320 meter monster towers in Abu Ghraib (also home to the main political prison) which use[d] to support most of Baghdad area's VHF and UHF. Both have been badly looted. ...

"I'll definitely share some of these pix with you and others next time I'm in the area - I'd love to put together a little presentation for SBE [Society of Broadcast Engineers] ... in about six months after I've been on every site and fixed some of them."

An active student

Berg graduated in 1996 from West Chester Henderson High School, where he was a member of the National Honor Society, and a semifinalist in the National Merit Scholarship Program, school officials said.

He played saxophone and tuba in the marching band and received its top awards, including the "John Phillip Sousa Award," for musicianship, leadership, character and dedication.

Starting at Pierce Middle School, he participated in Science Olympiad team competitions.

Michael DiBartolomeo, who was principal of Henderson when Berg graduated, called him "very bright," a "great citizen," and an involved and persistent youth.

"What I recall, if Nick had an issue with something going on in the school, he would come and tell me about it. If we agreed to disagree, he'd say, 'Mr. Bart, I am going to ask you about this every year.' He did it in such a nice, respectful way that you enjoyed hearing from him."

"He seemed like a really decent guy," said Josh Quinn, 30, bartender at Jitters Sports Bar in downtown West Chester.

"He told me he was going over there," Quinn said. "He didn't seem worried or upset. He was ready to go. He said, 'I'm going to Iraq. I'm going to do my duty.'"

West Chester resident Joe Hiddleson, 30, a building contractor, was among those puzzled by why Berg would want to go Iraq and why he would be chosen for execution.

"If it's retaliation, none of the prisoners had their heads cut off," he said. "He wasn't over there killing people. He was just a guy."

[dissention]

Even more garbage, it's sickening:

Berg's Father and Firm
Were On A Right-Wing
'Enemies' List
http://www.BreakForNews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm
by Fintan Dunne, Editor
BreakForNews.com EXCLUSIVE
Research by Kathy McMahon
12th May, 2004 10amET

The family firm of beheaded American Nick Berg, was named by a conservative website in a list of 'enemies' of the Iraq occupation. That could explain his arrest by Iraqi police --a detention which fatally delayed his planned return from Iraq and may have led directly to his death.

Nick Berg, 26 disappeared into incommunicado detention after his arrest by Iraqi police in March, 2004. He vanished again after his release 13 days later. His body was found last Saturday in Baghdad, and a video of his beheading --supposedly by a radical Islamic group-- was posted on the Internet on Tuesday.

The official story of his gruesome murder has many dubious aspects, not least the real reason why Iraqi police detained the young man at a checkpoint. New research by BreakForNews has uncovered a plausible explanation.

The FreeRepublic.com web site and forum has a reputation for right-wing views, fanatical Republicanism and relentless pro-war activism.

On 7th March, 2004, just three weeks before the first anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, an 'enemies' list of anti-war groups and individuals was posted on the Free Republic forum.

It began: "Here you are, FReepers. Here is the enemy."

The list had been copied from publicly available endorsements of a call to action for an imminent anniversary antiwar protest on 20th March, 2004. The protest was being organized under the banner of the A.N.S.W.E.R Coalition (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism).

Among those listed as having endorsed the call to action was this entry: "Michael S. Berg, Teacher, Prometheus Methods Tower Service, Inc."

That's Nick Berg's father, Michael who acts as business manager for his son in their family radio communications firm, Prometheus Methods Tower Service.

Both father and son cared deeply about Iraq. But they were on opposite sides of opinion on the occupation --though you would never know that from reading the New York Times.

Michael was ardently antiwar, whereas his Bush-supporting son was in favor of the war to the extent that he had already visited Iraq seeking to help with rebuilding efforts.

Just seven days after "Michael Berg" and "Prometheus Methods Tower Service" had come up on that Iraq war 'enemies' list, his son Nick Berg returned to Iraq under the business name of Prometheus Methods Tower Service.

The scene was set for tragically mistaken suspicions --which were to end in the horrifying death of an honorable and blameless American. A humanitarian who had traveled several times to Third World countries --such as Ghana, to teach villagers construction techniques.

The web traffic to the Free Republic forum --and it's forum membership-- include significant numbers of serving and former US military.

Many members take their online activism very seriously. Some delight in causing mischief for those they think are identified as "enemies."

Within minutes of getting their hands on the antiwar names, one was boasting of having contacted the military about active service personnel who were on the list:

"I forwarded the list to the ISC (the command you listed), the district officer... the district legal office and the investigative services office."

The response:

"The poor moron is not going to know what hit him. Is this being mean-spirited? NO! Someone against our military does not belong in the military!"

Another was already investigating a member of the Coast Guard on the list:

"I took a look at his yahoo and he has a site which is not real fond of the war on drugs OR the war on terrorism.... That particular coastie needs some serious trouble to come his way...."

" I spoke on the phone to a senior chief yesterday in Virginia.... [who] could not believe what the guy was doing. He was both astounded and angry. I think [he] is in for some big, big trouble."

If that list could end up on an Internet forum, then it could just as readily end up with the FBI, and eventually in the hands of those in Iraq who are keen to track or harass antiwar activists entering the country.

Alternatively, the enthusiasts on Free Republic have the contacts and the clear determination to have ensured the list quickly got to the right places.

At the time the list was posted, Nick Berg had just come back from an Iraq trip lasting from late December to Feb. 1. He had reported no problems whatsoever with Iraqi police during that visit.

Yet, within two weeks of the list being posted, Nick Berg --back in Iraq on his final fatal trip-- was reportedly detained in Mosul at an Iraqi police checkpoint. The official explanation is that authorities thought his identification might have been forged and were checking his authenticity.

But a more likely reason is that by then authorities in Iraq had discovered that a 'Berg' of Prometheus Methods Tower Service was in the country, and issued a detention instruction to Iraqi police because they misidentified Nick Berg as an antiwar activist entering Iraq to work for the 'enemy'.

That could explain why he was held incommunicado for 13 days, without recourse to a lawyer; why US officialdom was singularly unheeding of his mother's pleas; why the FBI visited his family to question them; why it took a US court order secured by the family to pressure his release.

And why he was cruelly murdered soon after that release, like many others around the world who suffer such a fate at the hands of state-condoned death squads --sometimes just hours after their release from official detention.

That's the final sordid twist in this grisly story.

If the world was an uncomplicated place, then this tale would end with the mistaken arrest of Nick Berg.

We could finish by noting that Nick's father is reportedly accusing the US government of contributing to his son's death. Unable to find work in Iraq, Nick Berg's last trip was set to be a short one. He planned to return to the US on the 30th of March.

Michael Berg charges that his son's detention until 5th April, was a violation of civil rights which fatally delayed his exit from Iraq and instead left him dangerously stranded in the middle of the explosion of violence which erupted in early April, 2004.

But there are much graver aspects to all this. Another chilling perspective is best summarized by the wry cynicism of Michael Rivero at WhatReallyHappened.com

In a commentary on the beheading of Nick Berg, Rivero writes:

"How wonderfully lucky for Bush and the NeoCons that such a great piece of pro-war distract-from-the-torture-scandal event happens at this particular moment."
Rivero's world-weary realism strikes a chord with his popular website's visitors, but will undoubtedly shock unseasoned observers. However he is far from alone in questioning the official line. Others have noted the too-white hands and military at-ease stance of the hooded captors in the video.

The killing has certainly eased the international discomfiture of the US.

The problem with assumptions that al-Queda is responsible for Berg's beheading, is that Musab al-Zarqawi is mentioned in a caption on the videotape of the killing.

Al-Zarqawi came to our attention in January, 2004 when the US military claimed to have intercepted a letter of his written to the al-Queda leadership. But the content of the letter read like a US military propaganda statement on the situation in Iraq.

In the letter al-Zarqawi wrote of Iraqis coming to welcome the US presence in Iraq, and about how al-Queda was loosing ground in it's war against the US.

In February, 2004 an article "The Zarqawi Gambit," by Greg Weiher on Counterpunch was deeply skeptical of the letter:

"..if you were Karl Rove, you couldn't design a better scenario to validate the administration's slant on the war than this. That's a good reason to maintain a healthy skepticism. In fact, there are a number of good reasons to take this story with a grain of salt (maybe a three- or four-pounder)."
The US has been keen to paint the opposition to the occupation as composed of many foreign fighters tied to al-Queda. The letter was clearly fabricated for propaganda purposes, with al-Zarqawi as it's new al-Queda star.

But if al-Zarqawi is merely a flimsy propaganda creation, then what confidence can we have in the official line that al-Zarqawi and al-Queda murdered Berg.

The only plausible alternative is a covert, black operation orchestrated as part of the seedier arm of US foreign policy --which generally only come to light when candid photographs, for example, reach the public domain.

But that's an explanation which many would reject on the grounds that no force allied to the US --no matter how black its operations-- would have members so callous as to even countenance the cold-blooded beheading of a US citizen.

However, there is a mindset amplified by war passions and found among the gung-ho brutes who beat Iraqis to death; found among the thuggish mercenary death squads who roam to slay at will; and found among the cold-blooded sociopaths who have planted bombs for political strategic reasons.

It's war. And war begets a wartime mindset.

Nick Berg's detention indicates that authorities regarded him an an antiwar activist and possibly also as an 'enemy.'

That original post on Free Republic contains a telling indication of a mindset, which in the heat of war could well kill an American it regards as the "enemy."

A mindset which has now reacted to Michael Berg's loss of his son like this:

"I wonder what he thinks about his Muslim buddies now... "

A mindset displayed by the search keywords used on Free Republic to categorize the list of antiwar supporters. The keywords are:

APPEASENIKS; DAMNCOMMIES; ENEMYWITHIN; LEFTISTS; PEACENIKS; RATS; SCUMBAGS; TRAITORS; TREASONOUSSCUM; USEFULIDIOTS; WARONTERROR

[strandinthewind]

Well, I find it a stretch to say the State Dept. is 100% responsible for his death because they held him for questioning and he allegedly was going to leave Iraq in that time frame. Again, if he wanted to leave, why not just go with the American transport. That is the part I do not get. Maybe the U.S. did not offer to let him leave. Is there any evidence that they really made that offer? Then, to walk across Iraq to get to Kuwaitt :shrug: I just do not get it. There is something fishy here. I think this guy was set up by someone or was a spy.

[dissention]

Well, I find it a stretch to say the State Dept. is 100% responsible for his death because they held him for questioning and he allegedly was going to leave Iraq in that time frame. Again, if he wanted to leave, why not just go with the American transport. That is the part I do not get. Maybe the U.S. did not offer to let him leave. Is there any evidence that they really made that offer? Then, to walk across Iraq to get to Kuwaitt :shrug: I just do not get it. There is something fishy here. I think this guy was set up by someone or was a spy.

But the thing is that they didn't have to ask, they could force a civilian to leave the country and they didn't; so they failed to protect him. The US said they extended the offer, but I don't buy it. Why would he reject it, only to tell his fmaily days later that he's going to leave the country ASAP, but that he must go through Turkey? Something is VERY fishy.

[strandinthewind]

But the thing is that they didn't have to ask, they could force a civilian to leave the country and they didn't; so they failed to protect him. The US said they extended the offer, but I don't buy it. Why would he reject it, only to tell his fmaily days later that he's going to leave the country ASAP, but that he must go through Turkey? Something is VERY fishy.

I do not think the govt. requires citizens to leave Iraq, esp. if they are there apparently on legitimate business like this guy was. Interestingly, just by going there he eschewed any warnings or protections to a large degree. I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to know that Iraq is not a safe place. So, I cannot see how the govt. failed him esp. if it is true that he rejected an offer to fly him out of there, which we have no evidence to disprove. I cannot imagine them NOT offering to let me leave. Then, why does he chose to travel thousands of miles thought the desert and hostile terrain to reach a border :shrug: It just smacks of a hidden intent to me.

Again, I am not saying what happened to him was not a horrible thing. I am just trying to figure out why this sounds fishy to me.

Here is the State Dept. site http://travel.state.gov/iraq.html

I am going to read it now.

[dissention]

I do not think the govt. requires citizens to leave Iraq, esp. if they are there apparently on legitimate business like this guy was. Interestingly, just by going there he eschewed any warnings or protections to a large degree. I mean it does not take a rocket scientist to know that Iraq is not a safe place. So, I cannot see how the govt. failed him esp. if it is true that he rejected an offer to fly him out of there, which we have no evidence to disprove. I cannot imagine them NOT offering to let me leave. Then, why does he chose to travel thousands of miles thought the desert and hostile terrain to reach a border :shrug: It just smacks of a hidden intent to me.

Again, I am not saying what happened to him was not a horrible thing. I am just trying to figure out why this sounds fishy to me.

Here is the State Dept. site http://travel.state.gov/iraq.html

I am going to read it now.

They don't require anyone to leave, but they have the authority to force a civilian to leave Iraq. If I just wanted to go over, I could sneak in through Turkey and get shipped back if I was caught. He didn't have a reason to be there because he had no work there, he did back in February but that was then. He went back to find work. Like I said, it's all very fishy.

[strandinthewind]

Other than my crazy conspiracy theories :laugh: - the only way the story "works" for me is that Mr. Berg went there to look for work and got some leads. He was at the end of his rope and working nights at the prison to make money, etc. Then, he gets hauled into the custody of the Iraqi police for something (we probably will never know exactly what) and is kept there for like two weeks and is questioned by the Iraqis and the U.S. officials (apparently amicably jusging by his email). Then he refuses to leave on a pretty much guaranteed safe exit. Why? Did he think that travelling through the country he might generate work? Perhaps, I mean that is not UNlikely :shrug: I think the fact that he worked at the prison is significant somehow, but how. Did he leak the CD with the photos? Did he particiapte somehow and this was the Iraqis' way of punishing him? Or, was he just walking down the street and they randomly grabbed him? These loose ends are suspicious to me.

[dissention]

HEADS UP!!!!

Stop signing anti-Bush Administration petitions online!!!! The freepers are out for blood. I went to a certain neocon website/message board to look around their list of "enemies." They have tons and tons of people listed that are just regular people and, lo and behold, I found my name. Not only my name, but my telephone number. Afterwards, I went to the DU and found out that they got most of the names from the ANSWER petition. If I get any phone calls, I'm going to flip a nutsack. DO NOT sign anything.

[DeeGeMe]

Stop signing anti-Bush Administration petitions online!!!!The freepers are out for blood. I went to a certain neocon website/message board to look around their list of "enemies." They have tons and tons of people listed that are just regular people and, lo and behold, I found my name. Not only my name, but my telephone number. Afterwards, I went to the DU and found out that they got most of the names from the ANSWER petition. If I get any phone calls, I'm going to flip a nutsack. DO NOT sign anything.

Holy crap is that scary! They'll probably hunt us down and kill us all eventually. Kinda like they did Berg. It's been confirmed now that one of the henchmen in the video was wearing a gold ring which is forbidden by Muslims. Hmmm. . . .

[dissention]

Holy crap is that scary! They'll probably hunt us down and kill us all eventually. Kinda like they did Berg. It's been confirmed now that one of the henchmen in the video was wearing a gold ring which is forbidden by Muslims. Hmmm. . . .

Yeah, the one that's supposed to be Zarqawi! :lol:

I only received one phone call, surprisingly, and it was Saturday night. The guy that called said people like me are a disgrace to America and hung up before I could say "Vote Kerry in '04." :laugh: A friend of mine that was on the list got quite a few calls, unfortunately. :eek:

[dissention]

Doesn't anyone think it's funny that this is being blamed on Zarqawi? The guy's been dead for almost a year. They bombed him and he couldn't get out of the building because he didn't have his fake leg on.

[DeeGeMe]

Yes, but I think it's strange that anyone who has even seen stills from that video thinks that Arabs did it. Come on--they're too fat for one thing, one is wearing a gold ring, and another has adopted the "relaxed" military stance.

And re: your phone call? How much hate (?) would you have to have to call a perfect stranger up and bless them out like that? What is wrong with these people?????? Thank goodness only 1 of them was crazy enough to call you. Then again, 1 nut is all it takes. . .

[dissention]

Yes, but I think it's strange that anyone who has even seen stills from that video thinks that Arabs did it. Come on--they're too fat for one thing, one is wearing a gold ring, and another has adopted the "relaxed" military stance.

And re: your phone call? How much hate (?) would you have to have to call a perfect stranger up and bless them out like that? What is wrong with these people?????? Thank goodness only 1 of them was crazy enough to call you. Then again, 1 nut is all it takes. . .

One is enough, but it's better than two. :nod: Have you ever visited the Free Republic? I felt like I needed a shower after I went there; it truly is the bowel of HELL.

Get over to the Disney/Michael Moore thread, I posted some FANTASTIC news. This movie is going to be HUGE. :nod: