Which one is the best lyricist ? [Archive]

Johnny Stew

04-30-2004, 11:59 PM

I chose Lindsey. He is the best, because he's my favorite. :)

The whole best thing is subjective to who we favor. His lyrics are the best because they touch my heart and soul. I LOVE Stevie's lyrics, she writes amazing stuff, but for some odd reason, they don't hit me like Lindsey's do.

You're absolutely right, Christy... and that's pretty much what the replies to these polls boil down to. Whichever of these particular lyricists happens to touch you the most with their work, is the one you're going to vote for.

A few rare people "cross party lines," so to speak, and will vote for someone other than their usual favorite, but 99.9% of the time, we're going to go with our "favorite."

Out of 30 years of music, Lindsey has about 10 songs that really hit me on a deep, meaningful level. Don't get me wrong... I love (or at least greatly enjoy) all of his work (the "dislikes" I sometimes mention, are only disliked in comparison to how much I enjoy so many of the other songs), but I don't connect with his lyrics on a reliable basis.

There are quite a number of Christine songs that move me, but, hands down, it's Stevie whose songs hit me where I live.
Play me any single Stevie Nicks-penned song you can think of, and there's always something I can relate to... even if it's only one verse, or just the bridge, or whatever.

So, for that reason, she becomes my "favorite" of the three, and the one I would choose as the "best" lyricist.
But, just as Christy said... it's all totally subjective. "Diff'rent strokes, for diff'rent folks," after all. ;) :laugh:

I can't wait until next Saturday so we can have something else to talk about.

I agree, and I really hope this thread doesn't dissolve into the typical "Lindsey vs. Stevie" arguments, and that people will post their opinions as to who's "the best," without using it as an opportunity to knock the remaining two.

greatdarkwing

05-01-2004, 12:08 AM

The title of this thread caused red flags to pop up in my head...LOL!

~Alex

Cristian

05-01-2004, 12:13 AM

I'm a huge Christine fan, but on this field I have to pick up Stevie. It was very hard because both of them have great songs and stinkers... but Stevie's lyrics, when well obtained, are nonparleil.

No offense to Lindsey fans of course.

Song of the moment - If Anyone Falls

HomerMcvie

05-01-2004, 12:57 AM

Chris is my absolute favorite, but, I give Stevie this title. Her lyrics are deeper than Chris' or Lindsey's. Damn, it hurts me to say that! :laugh:

xdreamsunwindx

05-01-2004, 01:02 AM

Stevie, hands down. While Lindsey and Christine are both excellent lyricists, La Nicks just has this certain something that makes her lyrics easy to relate to. Even though I don't know what the HELL she's going on about at times :lol:

jbrownsjr

05-01-2004, 01:22 AM

I can't wait until next Saturday so we can have something else to talk about.

I chose Lindsey. He is the best, because he's my favorite. :)

Sometimes I really enjoy your posts!! That was one of em. LOL :D

stefan

05-01-2004, 05:08 AM

I can't wait until next Saturday so we can have something else to talk about.

Well next Saturday my niece has her 6th birthday and I am more than willing to talk to all of you about what the party was like. :woohoo:
On the other hand, Christy, I am not too sure that you meant my niece. Please enlighten me- what`s happening then concerning FM?

face of glass

05-01-2004, 08:46 AM

No intention of knocking anyone here Johnny, it's just my perception I'm bringing out again

Out of 30 years of music, Lindsey has about 10 songs that really hit me on a deep, meaningful level. Don't get me wrong... I love (or at least greatly enjoy) all of his work (the "dislikes" I sometimes mention, are only disliked in comparison to how much I enjoy so many of the other songs), but I don't connect with his lyrics on a reliable basis.

There are quite a number of Christine songs that move me, but, hands down, it's Stevie whose songs hit me where I live.
Play me any single Stevie Nicks-penned song you can think of, and there's always something I can relate to... even if it's only one verse, or just the bridge, or whatever.

You still probably remember when I stated that laughing can be as deep as crying and that's why I don't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than the others" mentality that I know some people have around here.

I connect with "Family Man" as much as I connect with "Gypsy" (although I wouldn't like to list the various reasons again :eek: ) and that is because the former makes me laugh and makes me completely giddy while the latter makes me cry, even in front of people. It's totally different things that Stevie and Lindsey can do; the Lindsey tracks that make me cry like Stevie songs do I can count with the fingers of one hand and the Stevie songs that give me some sense of the same fun I get with Lindsey are of the same number. These rare occasions that I'm talking about are "Stand Back", "Jimmy Come On Back" and "Say You Will"; "You And I Part One", "Street Of Dreams" and "Down On Rodeo". I know they're not related to each other and don't sound alike but they just hit this weird nerve in me.

My problem with Stevie's solo work has been that she very often seems to be about the artistic depth and seriousness only; she very rarely lets her hair down or explores the other sides of her psyche. That's why she moves me somewhat less than Lindsey does; in my own twisted idea of what a human being should be I think Lindsey appears more humane than Stevie.

But it's just my opinion and we should also note that it's Lindsey who's overtly serious in interviews while Stevie is always spontaneous and humorous. Which is great, as far as I'm concerned.

I think Chris is somewhere in between the two; she knows how to have "lightweight" fun but she can grab my serious side with her as well. It happens on Time once again, with "Hollywood" and "I Do" being responsible of the former and "Sooner Or Later" and "All Over Again" responsible of the latter. And I guess "Nights In Estoril" is in between the two. I don't think of her as a great lyricist though, but I don't listen to her because of the lyrics anyway.

Nevertheless, I still picked Stevie because her lyrics seem to stand out the most on the paper. While Lindsey has improved notably over the years he still has some moments of weakness in the past, something that even the music can't always cover up (yes, it's "Oh Diane" I'm talking about). Yes, the sparseness of the Tusk lyrics and the meanings that can be read into them are still open for debate. But overall his lyrics only acquire their true meaning when they're put to music. Some of Stevie's lyrics "improve" in my mind as well when she starts singing them. But she's the strongest in this department and has been since the early days.

Bob Welch would be the pick for my favourite lyricist in the entire Fleetwood Mac canon, though.

HomerMcvie

05-01-2004, 09:16 AM

The topics also don't appeal to me. I'm not one for angels and gypsies and women who expel bell-like noises.
Lux, I just decided that I like you. :)

shackin'up

05-01-2004, 09:53 AM

I chose Lindsey. He is the best, because he's my favorite. :)

I chose Stevie, unless Lindsey is my favorite. Actually, I don't think his lyrics are weak, but Stevie's the one that has more "face". I can picture other artists singing a Lindsey or Christine-lyric, with the idea that they wrote it themselves. Stevie-lyrics? Well, I think in that case everyboy woul say " why are you pretending you're Stevie Nicks? "

Am I clear? :confused: :lol:

GypsySorcerer

05-01-2004, 10:55 AM

All three have written some trite lyrics IMO. And they have written some beautiful ones, of course.

I vote Stevie on this. Lindsey has vastly improved over the years, but looking at their body of work, it's Stevie.

shackin'up

05-01-2004, 11:21 AM

Bob Welch would be the pick for my favourite lyricist in the entire Fleetwood Mac canon, though.

I tend to agree on that one. bermuda triangle.

wondergirl9847

05-01-2004, 12:15 PM

I just woke up and it's freakin' NOON. LOL We had bad thunderstorms last night with hail and heavy rain, people died, it's horrible.

Anyways...the topic at hand. Stevie Nicks is one of the greatest lyricists, singers and songwriters EVER, IMO. She is terrific, I love her "gypsy" stuff, and some of her songs, like Dreams, Rhiannon, Gypsy and Beautiful Child are some of my favorite songs of all time. :)

Christine has written some amazing songs, Why, Show Me a Smile, Little Lies, Isn't It Midnight, etc. I adore those and many others.

Danny Kirwan is so different in his lyrics and playing. I've always thought his solo stuff is a mixture of Stevie lyrics/Lindsey playing. I don't really connect with his music on an emotional level, but he's my third fave member of FM. :nod:

Bob Welch wrote some freakishly weird songs!! I love him for it! Hypnotized is one of my fave songs ever. His jazz tendencies brought something different to the band...thanks Bob! :thumbsup:

Peter with Man of the World, Albatross and Oh Well. A-M-A-Z-I-N-G stuff!!

Lindsey. He's the one who makes me cry, laugh, joyful, etc. ISA and Red Rover are my two fave songs of all time. I love the solo in ISA, but those lyrics hit me and the RR lyrics do to. I apply BOTH songs to my life, even if he meant something TOTALLY different when writing them.

I love these kind of questions, but hate them at the same time. Make sense? They are ALL amazing lyricists and to say who's best is our opinion. It does bring about interesting debate and I love reading what everyone has to say. :D

Merf

05-01-2004, 12:18 PM

The topics also don't appeal to me. I'm not one for angels and gypsies and women who expel bell-like noises.

I think that by summing up Stevie's catalog of songs like that you are missing a very key interesting topic that has been a subject of her songs since 1975: Lindsey himself.

wondergirl9847

05-01-2004, 12:19 PM

Well next Saturday my niece has her 6th birthday and I am more than willing to talk to all of you about what the party was like. :woohoo:
On the other hand, Christy, I am not too sure that you meant my niece. Please enlighten me- what`s happening then concerning FM?

Dude, keep up!! :laugh: It's the opening night of their (what is this?) fourth (?) leg of this SYW tour!!

Happy (early) birthday to your niece!! :woohoo: My birthday is tomorrow! May babies...RULE!! :laugh:

Hawkeye

05-01-2004, 12:37 PM

I can't wait until next Saturday so we can have something else to talk about.

You mean "Who Stole The Show- Lindsey or Stevie" :laugh:

HomerMcvie

05-01-2004, 12:41 PM

The topics also don't appeal to me. I'm not one for angels and gypsies and women who expel bell-like noises.I think that by summing up Stevie's catalog of songs like that you are missing a very key interesting topic that has been a subject of her songs since 1975: Lindsey himself.
Oh, lighten up Chiffonie! It was a very cute description of Stevie's work.
I, for one, appreciate sarcasm.

wondergirl9847

05-01-2004, 12:42 PM

You mean "Who Stole The Show- Lindsey or Stevie" :laugh:

FTR, it will be Lindsey. ;)

:lol:

Unless she breaks out SOTM or they do a kick a$$ Edge of 17, I may have to change my tune. Hehe.

Johnny Stew

05-01-2004, 01:58 PM

No intention of knocking anyone here Johnny, it's just my perception I'm bringing out again

You still probably remember when I stated that laughing can be as deep as crying and that's why I don't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than the others" mentality that I know some people have around here.

I connect with "Family Man" as much as I connect with "Gypsy" (although I wouldn't like to list the various reasons again :eek: ) and that is because the former makes me laugh and makes me completely giddy while the latter makes me cry, even in front of people. It's totally different things that Stevie and Lindsey can do; the Lindsey tracks that make me cry like Stevie songs do I can count with the fingers of one hand and the Stevie songs that give me some sense of the same fun I get with Lindsey are of the same number. These rare occasions that I'm talking about are "Stand Back", "Jimmy Come On Back" and "Say You Will"; "You And I Part One", "Street Of Dreams" and "Down On Rodeo". I know they're not related to each other and don't sound alike but they just hit this weird nerve in me.

My problem with Stevie's solo work has been that she very often seems to be about the artistic depth and seriousness only; she very rarely lets her hair down or explores the other sides of her psyche. That's why she moves me somewhat less than Lindsey does; in my own twisted idea of what a human being should be I think Lindsey appears more humane than Stevie.

But it's just my opinion and we should also note that it's Lindsey who's overtly serious in interviews while Stevie is always spontaneous and humorous. Which is great, as far as I'm concerned.

Hi Gaius! :)

Trust me, I'd be the last one to discount the importance of humour.

A lot of Lindsey's song do make me smile, and are a whole lot of fun (though I can't recall ever finding myself laughing outright. Not even "Family Man"!). ;)

I think that there are a lot of "fun" songs out there (Harry Nillson's "Coconut," Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville," any number of Weird Al Yankovic songs, heck, even the "Macarena"), and those songs, as well as songs like "Bwana" and "Johnny Stew," are important, because life needs levity... but for a song to truly affect me in a deep-down way, I have to feel like the lyrics are offering me a glimpse into the songwriter's psyche.

Not just the "fun guy at parties" part, but the parts that we don't tend to let other people see.

I think that's why I love "When I See You Again" so much (sorry to come back to that song once again)... Stevie is baring her soul on that one. She's despondent, alone and traumatized by a broken love-affair, and there's nothing left to do but walk the hallways, and stare at the stairs, and obsess over what her lover might say to her, if he could see her now.

Some people hate that song, and feel it could be better written (or better sung), and that's fine... but I'm left feeling as if Stevie just shared her deepest, darkest secrets. So it moves me to no end.

I'm not saying that makes her "better" than Lindsey (I hate the word "better," by the way), I'm just saying it's what gives her the edge... in my lone opinion... in these matters.

So while "Empire State" and "Dancing Across The USA" are terrific songs, and a whole helluva lot of fun, I'm never going to "connect" with them, the way I connect with Stevie's songs. Or the way I connect to songs like "I'm So Afraid" or "Say Goodbye" (Lindsey's best lyrics ever, but, admittedly, not my favorite production-wise).

But again, this is why I always stress that Fleetwood Mac has something for everyone.
Whether it's Christine, Lindsey or Stevie, there's someone in this version of the band whose viewpoint and personality, just about anyone can find to be relatable. :nod: :)

face of glass

05-01-2004, 02:30 PM

I think that there are a lot of "fun" songs out there (Harry Nillson's "Coconut," Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville," any number of Weird Al Yankovic songs, heck, even the "Macarena"), and those songs, as well as songs like "Bwana" and "Johnny Stew," are important, because life needs levity... but for a song to truly affect me in a deep-down way, I have to feel like the lyrics are offering me a glimpse into the songwriter's psyche.

Not just the "fun guy at parties" part, but the parts that we don't tend to let other people see.

Well I personally think that in material like that the songwriter can be exposing his/her psyche to us. I think "Family Man" is as soul-searching as "WISYA", but that's in a sense of perverse fun. Like I said in another thread, the track has awfully banal lyrics and it's stuff that can come to my head, at least when I'm really tired. So I identify with that a lot. Especially with the mockery of those lyrics that the voice treatments convey.

So I think that's another side that no one would ever want people to see, except through art of course. You can always come up with vague explanations of it anyway. ;)

I'm imagining someone glancing at the track titles of TITN and thinking that "Family Man" is a typical title of a song for the AOR band that Fleetwood Mac is supposed to be. Yes, it has shades of mainstream but it seems to be making fun of the whole idea.

So whereas Lindsey is more self-conscious and calculating than Stevie when he puts his pieces of music together, he can also be just as arresting for me. Even when it seems like he's just having fun.

So from now on I will be the ultimate "Family Man" defender on these boards, much the same as your relationship with "WISYA". ;) And I can see how the latter can be moving for you, and others. She's just never gonna let us go. :)

Merf

05-01-2004, 11:53 PM

Oh, lighten up Chiffonie!

:rolleyes:

GardenStateGirlie

05-02-2004, 12:50 AM

Lindsey has some really incredibly deep and beautiful songs, truly he does. While Stevie is the songstress...a totally prolific writer who occassionally dabs in playing a musical instrument, it's Lindsey who has his hands in everything. When I hear the name Lindsey Buckingham, I don't immediately think, "wow, he's a great lyricist," I think, "wow, he's an amazing guitarist." I dare say that Lindsey would agree...it's Stevie's forte and always will be. He is the Renaissance Man in Fleetwood Mac, contributing much more than lyrics which, IMO, other than her haunting vocals, is all Stevie contributes. Honestly, there are times when I get much more emotion out of his guitar playing and his production of songs (which are often at times Stevie's) than I do out of what he has written. I love you, Lindsey Buckingham but I think Stevie is the total lyricist. She lives and breathes her poetry and lyrics. You live and breathe the studio and your guitar. It's not about whose songs make the most sense...it's about who spends the most time and creative energy on what and clearly it's Stevie with the lyrics. Of course, we can't discount good old Christine either but I still don't think she's the best lyricist...regardless of the fact she churned out some hits for the band.

stefan

05-02-2004, 04:02 AM

My birthday is tomorrow! May babies...RULE!! :laugh:
Oh then I wish you all the best! Have a nice day! :wavey:
Stefan

face of glass

05-02-2004, 09:06 AM

Yeah, I agree with Marissa there. And I'd also like to add that Lindsey works in terms of albums as artistic portraits than just thinking of them as a bunch of songs (with or without the homogenous sound). So while there may be some incomprehensible moments (in that they don't generate much feeling) on Law And Order for me, they fall together when the album is looked at as a whole. The traditional '60s mentality at work once again.

And while Stevie's lyrics can often be interpretated on their own without the music (as the comments at BuckinghamNicks.net show us, for instance) with Lindsey it's sometimes inaccurate to separate the lyrics from the music if one wants to analyse them. They go together in the end, IMO.

Cammie

05-02-2004, 12:29 PM

:shrug: Well...if you want all girly stuff, as for ME...I Love and
Adore Guy Stuff!:cool:Lindsey's WORDS Rule My Heart!:xoxo:Sky :]

rianbay1

05-02-2004, 05:50 PM

[QUOTE=face of glass]
My problem with Stevie's solo work has been that she very often seems to be about the artistic depth and seriousness only; she very rarely lets her hair down or explores the other sides of her psyche. That's why she moves me somewhat less than Lindsey does; in my own twisted idea of what a human being should be I think Lindsey appears more humane than Stevie.
QUOTE]

Wow. I would have said this same EXACT thing about Lindsey.

CarneVaca

05-02-2004, 06:28 PM

There is not cut-and-dry answer to this question. Early on, Stevie was by far way ahead. These days, I'd go with Lindsey.

David

05-02-2004, 10:29 PM

Awww...poor Lindsey doesn't have any votes. It's not that his songs aren't good...cuz they are...but Stevie is the best. Her lyrics are so obscure but they can mean different things to different people, and they all mean something to her.I find this view as fascinating as it is widespread. What is traditionally not considered a virtue in a literary sense -- obscurity that skirts near-total senselessness -- has become one for legions of people. I happen to love Stevie's lyrics, despite my utter lack of critical regard for them; as far as I'm concerned, she is not -- in any sense I can support logically -- a gifted wielder of words. She doesn't seem to me to have any special feel for words or language in general; her lyrics are rife with verbal inexactitude of malaproprian proportions, & overreliance on the stock symbols & images of fairy tales, tossed about in her songs, hither & yon, like a seal pup by a killer whale. Yet her songs live & breathe, beyond my ability to understand. When I hear her belt her way through "The Nightmare," with its artifically pumped-up melodrama that's basically an odiferous mixture of musty Victorianism & romance-novel cliche, I'm totally hooked. I'm sucked in to her little world, & for the time being, that world is the most fascinating place to be. So, for me, Stevie is the best lyricist in the band, because she stumbles on that arresting imagistic "hook," usually inadvertently, & you suddenly see it all so clearly . . . "I stood with you against the storm/And I tried once again."

CarneVaca

05-03-2004, 08:41 AM

I find this view as fascinating as it is widespread. What is traditionally not considered a virtue in a literary sense -- obscurity that skirts near-total senselessness -- has become one for legions of people. I happen to love Stevie's lyrics, despite my utter lack of critical regard for them; as far as I'm concerned, she is not -- in any sense I can support logically -- a gifted wielder of words.

Thanks, David. If I said this, it would just be dismissed as Stevie hating because I am a bigger fan of Lindsey's.

I believe Stevie has resonated with so many people through the years more because of her delivery and persona than the words themselves.

UT-BABY

05-03-2004, 08:53 AM

I would have to say Stevie...although Lindsey's writing on the last album seems to be more mature. I think Christine's songs are really good...and I love her keyboards...but I think some of her lyrics are cheesy.

face of glass

05-03-2004, 09:06 AM

I believe Stevie has resonated with so many people through the years more because of her delivery and persona than the words themselves.

But then again she couldn't have sung just anything; the lyrics had to go along with her image, or actually the image had to go along with the words.

And still, no matter how some people think of her lyrics as "high-school poetry", it mattered a lot many teenagers who identified with her, before Madonna came along at least. And I don't think they're high-school poetry myself, especially when it seems like she lives through them all.

face of glass

05-03-2004, 09:27 AM

Wow. I would have said this same EXACT thing about Lindsey.

Like I said, in interviews Lindsey is laughably serious, so much so that they can be occasionally be unbearable reading for me (unbearable in that I can't stop laughing ;)). Stevie is often very humorous and honest, uses less $100 words and seems to be a more comfortable person to talk to overall. Which is good because if she was to have the same serious artistic posturing that Lindsey does then I'd probably stop reading her interviews altogether.

But in music it's a totally different thing. Stevie reveals her heart to us in the Tusk songs in that she's damn vulnerable in there. Lindsey builds this huge wall of sound around himself but even then he lets us see through the cracks and tells us that he's not alright at all.

Not to mention that it's he who has most of the uplifting material on the FM albums; the necessary hedonistic rush that tells us not to take anything too seriously. Stevie, on the other hand, never seems to be making fun of herself or her "first love, the songs".

There's outright beautiful and funny childishness in "Not That Funny" and "I Know I'm Not Wrong", the playful can be found in the faster songs on Tusk and in something like "Empire State" or "Red Rover", the self-mockery in "Family Man", the exaggerated, intentionally sarcastic male bravado in "Come" and the cartoonish humour in the treated vocals in "Bwana", "September Song", "Family Man" (again!) and even "Wrong".

Stevie hasn't tried any of the above in her music and that's why for me she isn't humorous in that area. But, she doesn't necessarily need to do it. After all she wanted to totally concentrate on her image/lyrics/delivery connection and that obviously meant total seriousness for her. David has a better grasp of this than I do up there. I've never seen any self-parody in Stevie's music myself (although I'm sure many people who are not fans can see it a lot) but she doesn't really need it anyway.

And for me this isn't about interviews or who's more natural on stage. The studio albums will survive above all that and that's where Lindsey appears funnier, and therefore more humane (in my preferences, of course) than Stevie.

Let's hope there's no Nicksbashing on the horizon now. ;)

cliffdweller

05-03-2004, 10:47 AM

as far as I'm concerned, she is not -- in any sense I can support logically -- a gifted wielder of words.

I'm totally hooked. I'm sucked in to her little world, & for the time being, that world is the most fascinating place to be. So, for me, Stevie is the best lyricist in the band, because she stumbles on that arresting imagistic "hook," usually inadvertently, & you suddenly see it all so clearly . . . "I stood with you against the storm/And I tried once again."

Hmmmm.....I see a glaring contradiction in this post.

Johnny Stew

05-03-2004, 01:42 PM

Thanks, David. If I said this, it would just be dismissed as Stevie hating because I am a bigger fan of Lindsey's.

That's not entirely true, bud. :)
David said that, despite the fact that her lyrics might not stand up for him when he looks at them from a critical literary standpoint, they do appeal to him "where it counts," because she has a way of drawing you into her world, and showing you that world thru her eyes.

David asserted that Stevie is not necessarily the most clever of lyricists, but that she basically doesn't have to be, because her lyrics possess a compelling and "arresting" quality that he finds appealing.

He was analytical, but he wasn't being belittling or dismissive. So that's why even the most hardcore of fans probably wouldn't consider his post to be mere "Stevie hating," even if they didn't entirely agree with his assessment. :) :nod:

Johnny Stew

05-03-2004, 01:44 PM

Hmmmm.....I see a glaring contradiction in (David's) post.

I respectfully disagree. See my above post for the reasons. :) :wavey:

snwriter

05-03-2004, 03:02 PM

Stevie, by far.

sodascouts

05-03-2004, 05:28 PM

Lindsey. He definately has weak moments (Caroline seems to be a constant joke), but still, Lindsey.

Caroline? What's wrong with Caroline? I actually love its lyrics! "Dusty fury on the mountain top" - that's wonderful! I realize there's no accounting for taste - I just am surprised you pick that one to represent bad lyrics. Now, "Family Man" on the other hand....

sodascouts

05-03-2004, 05:33 PM

While Lindsey has improved notably over the years he still has some moments of weakness in the past, something that even the music can't always cover up (yes, it's "Oh Diane" I'm talking about).

I was just listening to "Oh Diane" in the car today and thinking it was fun. Am I the only one who likes it? I realize that the metaphor about one grain of sand slipping through hands slowly is problematic (it should be GRAINS of sand) but hey, maybe Richard Dashut wrote that line. They are both credited, you know. ;)

wondergirl9847

05-03-2004, 06:09 PM

I love Oh Diane, Family Man, Only Over You and Caroline. Most of these are on Least-Liked lists.

"Time recedes with a fatal drop
Dusty fury on the mountain top."

LOVE that!!

Johnny Stew

05-03-2004, 08:22 PM

"Time recedes with a fatal drop
Dusty fury on the mountain top."

LOVE that!!

That is a terrific couplet... I love it too. Excellent imagery there. :nod:

And don't worry, Christy... I know alllllllll about loving songs that are on other fans' "least-liked" lists! :laugh:

strandinthewind

05-03-2004, 08:50 PM

There is not cut-and-dry answer to this question. Early on, Stevie was by far way ahead. These days, I'd go with Lindsey.

Hmmmm. While I agree LB is stellar these days, he was also stellar in 1975 with ISA, which is sardonic and delicious at the same time. On SYW - I think LB goes into "new" ground, but most of the songs on there by him are around 8 years or more old, e.g. Say Goodbye and the GOS stuff. So, I think to make a reference to comparing LB with Stevie these days, you kind of have to look at Stevie and LB from 1987 until today. I mean that makes the comparison fair. I would put her TISL stuff, esp. the title track, ahead of LB's stuff. I also think if you compare Stevie's four newest songs "Illume, "Say You Will," "Destiny Rules," and "Silver Girl" with LB's one (WTWCT) Stevie wins that one. WTWCT cannot compare with Say You Will (electricity of love - fever dance - etc.). In the end, Chris' songs ALWAYS made me happiest and still do to this day. Who cannot hear "SWWEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTT Wonderful you . . . " and not just smile - she is second. LB's songs make me listen perhaps more to the music, but that is not really fair I guess, because although alot of his 80's stuff is too simplistic for me (Family Man, Caroline, etc.), the man can write a song like no one else - but he is third. Stevie's songs, on the other hand, take me to another level altogether especially when she sings them. So, I guess Stevie wins as the best for me amongst three incredible writers. Perhaps no one is surprised there :laugh: I also think it is hysterical when Stevie says it bugs LB to no end when she sits down and writes a song in like ten minutes, when it takes him longer :laugh: But and again, I think all three are incredible and the comparison is a little unfair as all three of them are VERY different in style.

BTW - I like Bob Welch's stuff alot, but of the pre-spoiled brats ( :thumbsup: ChiliD :laugh: ) members and other than Chris (solely because of Why), I would have to go with Peter Green, who I still maintain could be those most talented of them all to this day.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 08:37 AM

I was just listening to "Oh Diane" in the car today and thinking it was fun. Am I the only one who likes it? I realize that the metaphor about one grain of sand slipping through hands slowly is problematic (it should be GRAINS of sand) but hey, maybe Richard Dashut wrote that line. They are both credited, you know. ;)

I don't know why people dis that song either. I've always loved Oh Diane and his Lindsey-does-Elvis vocals. Very catchy, simple melody with unchallenging words. The song is very special to me.

Also, Nancy, I don't think "Love is like a grain of sand, slowly slipping..." is problematic at all. Because he is talking about one grain of sand, that does not necessarily exclude it from being one of many grains of sand that are slipping through the hand. In fact, I think the metaphor works because of that. It adds to the sense of isolation, if that makes any sense. Like, one walking alone in a crowd kind of thing.

Nevertheless, your comment forced me to think this through and understand why I didn't have a problem with the image. I had never dwelled on it before; I just accepted that's what he meant.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 08:52 AM

Hmmmm. While I agree LB is stellar these days, he was also stellar in 1975 with ISA, which is sardonic and delicious at the same time. On SYW - I think LB goes into "new" ground, but most of the songs on there by him are around 8 years or more old, e.g. Say Goodbye and the GOS stuff. So, I think to make a reference to comparing LB with Stevie these days, you kind of have to look at Stevie and LB from 1987 until today. I mean that makes the comparison fair.

You are so silly sometimes. :laugh: Why would you have to take into account her songs going back to 1987 for the comparison to be fair? How about taking into account songs that go back to the Rumours sessions? Isn't that when the first demo of "Smile at You" appeared? And isn't "Running through the Garden" almost as old?

I would put her TISL stuff, esp. the title track, ahead of LB's stuff. I also think if you compare Stevie's four newest songs "Illume, "Say You Will," "Destiny Rules," and "Silver Girl" with LB's one (WTWCT) Stevie wins that one.

I don't care for the TISL stuff, and therefore have never paid more than cursory attention to it. I couldn't even sing you one verse from that whole album from memory. Since it doesn't draw me in and Lindsey's more recent stuff does, I make my judgment based on that.

Now, I am merely going to laugh at your presenting "Silver Girl" as credible evidence that Stevie's writing is top-notch these days. I'm laughing so hard I can barely stay sitting. How many drinks had you had when you wrote that?

As you know, I have some problems with "Illume" and I won't get into them again here. Suffice it to say that I think the song could have been much better, yet the musicality of it is very fetching. "Say You Will" is a catchy song with terribly mundane lyrics. And "Destiny Rules," well, I realize a lot of people like it, but to me it is just something I listen to when I forget to fast-forward. Coastal cities and diamond snakes and all that. Silly imagery if you ask me.

WTWCT cannot compare with Say You Will (electricity of love - fever dance - etc.).

Now, pray tell, why is "electricity of love" such a brilliant phrase? I bet you if I google that phrase I am going to find it, and variations of it, repeated thoughout the history of the written word. "Fever dance" is an interesting image but when I hear it I see images of people spinning and shaking their heads in a trance in the dark with red lights shining on them. I'm not sure what that has to do with love, but I guess people have interpreted that to mean the act of love-making. Hey, to each his/her own, know what I mean?

Also, you pick WTWCT as the one example of Lindsey's lyricism in SYW? Come on. The song is actually not bad except for the moon reference. What the hell is he talking about?

Be that as it may, lyrically Lindsey is so far ahead of Stevie in SYW that arguing about it is futile. Even the simplicity of "Steal Your Heart Away" is far better than the atrocity that is "Silver Girl."

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 09:38 AM

Bless your heart Carne, did you read what I said :laugh:

I said LB wrote, I think, only one "new" song specifically for this FM record and he wrote it after, I think, the year 2000. All of his other songs were written at least since 1987 or so. I used 1987 because: (1) LB said he wrote thebrilliant SG when he left FM in 1987 because he was too emotionally void to live up to his contract to tour; (2) many of the the GOS songs were in place by 1997 or perhaps earlier, and; (3) LB tried to sell his GOS final stuff to Warners in, I think, 1999. So, in response to your statement that LB has improved, I was merely pointing out that a fair current comparison of LB and SN's work on SYW would have to encompass all songs by both in the same time period. I do not see how that is a stretch of logic just because SN is willing and able to put her music out there and LB for whatever reason is not :shrug: So, I specifically mentioned Stevie's post 1987 new songs, which excluded Silver Spings, and used some as a comparison to LB's post 1987 work. I then noted Stevie wrote four new songs in 2001 for SYW and that of those, the songs SYW and Illume (not Silver Girl and DR - although I like them) have superior lyrics to LB's only new contribution - WTWCT. I then noted that her new stuff on TISL should also be used as all of the new stuff apparently was written about the time of the The Dance tour and when LB was trying in vain to sell GOS. My point is Stevie has more released work from the same period and that released work is better IMO.

I also specifically stated I think LB and CM are great as well. I just think Stevie is better.

dissention

05-04-2004, 10:46 AM

dissention

05-04-2004, 10:50 AM

Now, pray tell, why is "electricity of love" such a brilliant phrase? I bet you if I google that phrase I am going to find it, and variations of it, repeated thoughout the history of the written word. "Fever dance" is an interesting image but when I hear it I see images of people spinning and shaking their heads in a trance in the dark with red lights shining on them. I'm not sure what that has to do with love, but I guess people have interpreted that to mean the act of love-making. Hey, to each his/her own, know what I mean?

:xoxo: :nod:

And I'm surprised you didn't mention that it should be "fevered dance" and not "fever dance." It is, after all, another example of her bad grammar. :laugh:

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 11:00 AM

I used 1987 because: ...[bla bla blah]

I knew what you meant. But the timing issue gets tricky, especially since the continuum of time in which Stevie's songs were written is longer than Lindsey's. So keeping that in mind, we have to go with what was released most recently. And from that collection of songs, regardless of when they were written, Lindsey's are lyrically superior to me.

I said that in the early days, Stevie was far better lyrically. Judging from what was released then, I stand by that comment , I'm So Afraid and Go Your Own Way notwithstanding. (interestingly, I find Planets of the Universe to be rather uninspired. The "dreams" theme was dealt with much more expertly in the song bearing the name. In "Planets," it sounds like a developing idea, but one that hasn't been fleshed out completely. So I guess that shows that regardless of the time period, both of them wrote good and not-so-good lyrics.) By Tusk, I think they were getting on an equal level, as far as songwriting goes. By Tango, Lindsey's lyrics were taking a dump and Stevie's had reached the sewer (excuse the scatological metaphors... Digression: Interestingly the two rivers that border the city of Barcelona in the Middle Ages were called Merdança (**** stream) and the Cagallel (turd bearer). I'm not making this up.)

By Cradle, there was no doubt in my mind which of them was writing the interesting stuff.

But, hey, what do I know besides useless sewer-related trivia? :blob1:

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 11:02 AM

:xoxo: :nod:

And I'm surprised you didn't mention that it should be "fevered dance" and not "fever dance." It is, after all, another example of her bad grammar. :laugh:

True, "fever dance" and "fevered dance" are two different things. In context, you are quite right that she should have said "fevered."

dissention

05-04-2004, 11:08 AM

(interestingly, I find Planets of the Universe to be rather uninspired. The "dreams" theme was dealt with much more expertly in the song bearing the name. In "Planets," it sounds like a developing idea, but one that hasn't been fleshed out completely. So I guess that shows that regardless of the time period, both of them wrote good and not-so-good lyrics.)

That's because she stole a lot of it, or rather, "borrowed liberally," from Poe, if I'm not mistaken.

Oh well, I still think it's great. :laugh:

snwriter

05-04-2004, 11:17 AM

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 11:21 AM

True, "fever dance" and "fevered dance" are two different things. In context, you are quite right that she should have said "fevered."

"You can't plant no seed - where there's only greed" :rolleyes: I think they are on equal footing when it comes to using incorrect grammar for emphasis :shrug:

Having said that :laugh: the impression I got from the phrase "fever dance" was that hot, confused, elated emotional state experienced when you have an instant attraction for someone to wit:

Somethin' in you brought out somethin' in me, that I've never been since
That part of me that was only for you,
That kind of romance
Comes only once, that kind of love
That kind of fever dance
That you love because you become someone else in an instant

:shrug: I think it is brilliant - It makes me happy. I cannot imagine everyone would not want to feel this way at least once in their life. But, others disagree . . .

As does:

Somethin' in you put a hold on my heart
It's hard to believe now
Here in the place that will never be dark
I remember that place...
That kind of touch, electricity of love
That certain kind of grace
That you love because you become someone else in an instant

Who would not want to experience that portrayal of love?

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 11:33 AM

Indeed, Schizophrenic delusions are high on my list of desired experiences.

^note, sarcasm present.

To call this a delusion, even with sarcasm, means to me you obviously have never experienced what she is talking about. I have and therefore I get it - in fact, I'd like to have it again! It is just beyond me that no one would want to experience this picture exactly as she brilliantly paints it :shrug:

dissention

05-04-2004, 11:39 AM

"You can't plant no seed - where there's only greed" :rolleyes: I think they are on equal footing when it comes to using incorrect grammar for emphasis :shrug:

I was joking, doll. (Even though she uses the wrong word) :lol:

However, ever since I heard SYW for the first time, the song has bothered me because of the opening verse. Grammar and stuff doesn't bother me at all, but this one made me gasp:

Somethin' in you brought out something in me
That I haven't been since,
That part of you that was only for me,
That kind of romance...

I know what she's getting at and I like it, but it's unfinished.

dissention

05-04-2004, 11:41 AM

It is just beyond me that no one would want to experience this picture exactly as she brilliantly paints it :shrug:

My, my. :xoxo: It's a good song and love it, but I find it far from brilliant. If you want a brilliantly pictured song, skip to track 11.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 11:45 AM

My, my. :xoxo: It's a good song and love it, but I find it far from brilliant. If you want a brilliantly pictured song, skip to track 11.

I agree RTTG (track 11) is a great song. Interestingly, I think SG probably is the prettiest love song on the disc though - it is just so sad. GB - if it is about LB and SN's relationship, is also stunning.

Also, I was using ther term brilliant to mean vivid. I think SYW (the song) paints a picture in vivid detail.

wondergirl9847

05-04-2004, 11:45 AM

Ya'll, EVERY songwriter takes liberties with music, because if they wrote with correct grammar, rap wouldn't even EXIST. :laugh:

Well, some people would be happy with that, actually. :lol:

Seriously, I really wish the whole grammar argument would die.

Every writer that's ever BEEN in FM contributed at least ONE amazing song, IMO. Dangit, that's why we love this band, there's something for everyone.

You like blues? There's Peter/Danny/Jeremy!!
You like pop? There's Lindsey/Stevie/Christine!!
You like country-pop? There's Rick/Billy/Stevie/Christine!!
You like jazz? There's Bob Welch!!
You like songs about witches? There's Stevie!!
You like songs about death? There's Lindsey!!
You like songs about love? There's Christine!!
You like songs about the Bermuda Triangle? There's Bob!!
You like songs about hatred of self? There's Peter Green!!
You like songs about Dragonflies? There's Danny Kirwan!!

You like good music? There's Fleetwood Mac!!

:lol:

dissention

05-04-2004, 12:16 PM

I agree RTTG (track 11) is a great song. Interestingly, I think SG probably is the prettiest love song on the disc though - it is just so sad. GB - if it is about LB and SN's relationship, is also stunning.

Also, I was using ther term brilliant to mean vivid. I think SYW (the song) paints a picture in vivid detail.

I consider Say Goodbye the best song on the album, so you'll hear no arguments from me. ;)

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 12:23 PM

Also, Nancy, I don't think "Love is like a grain of sand, slowly slipping..." is problematic at all. Because he is talking about one grain of sand, that does not necessarily exclude it from being one of many grains of sand that are slipping through the hand. In fact, I think the metaphor works because of that. It adds to the sense of isolation, if that makes any sense. Like, one walking alone in a crowd kind of thing.

Hmm, I like that. OK, now I realize Oh Diane has no flaws. ;)

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 12:25 PM

:xoxo: :nod:

And I'm surprised you didn't mention that it should be "fevered dance" and not "fever dance." It is, after all, another example of her bad grammar. :laugh:

I'm not one to let Stevie slide on grammar, but I think "fever dance" works. In fact, I like it better than the traditional "fevered dance." The latter makes me think of someone who's dancing a little too hard and is all red in the face ready to collapse, lol. The first one makes me think of joy and excitement in the heat of passion and love. ;)

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 12:31 PM

Please. Every lyricist, even Dylan and Joni Mitchell (the best), play around with grammar rules. Hello--"The Skie's the Limit"!!!!????!!!!

AARGH! "The Skies the Limit" is like NAILS ON A BLACKBOARD to me. What was she thinking when she decided to mistitle her song in this idiotic way?

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 12:36 PM

That's because she stole a lot of it, or rather, "borrowed liberally," from Poe, if I'm not mistaken.

Oh well, I still think it's great. :laugh:

I hadn't noticed any uniquely Poe references in POTU. I must be slipping. Perhaps I was too distracted by the blatant TISL demo / dirge "Annabel Lee."

I adore RTTG, and I think it's great Stevie reads the classics, but.... well, moderation in all things. I guess it's unfair to count demos such as "Have No Heart" and "Annabel Lee" in with "Running Through the Garden," though, because perhaps the first two were never meant to be released.

Stevie has said she doesn't make up stories in her songs. I guess that means she sometimes has to "borrow" them if her own life becomes a little dull. ;)

Janet

05-04-2004, 01:01 PM

On stricly lyrics, I chose Stevie because she is the poet writer isn't she? Christine and Lindsey are more musical but Stevie is the writer and if all 5 of them sat down, they'd all agree I think.

snwriter

05-04-2004, 01:13 PM

Very well said, wondergirl!

Also, I agree with dissention that "Say Goodbye" is one of the best if not the best song on SYW.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 01:14 PM

I consider Say Goodbye the best song on the album, so you'll hear no arguments from me. ;)

Besides, Strandman already admitted months ago he likes Lindsey's SYW stuff better.

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 01:23 PM

Besides, Strandman already admitted months ago he likes Lindsey's SYW stuff better.

Yes, LB writes a great song and his songs are better on SYW than Stevie's in general, although Stevie's songs certainly are great. However and to be fair, as I noted above and in the post you refer to, LB's songs on SYW reflect 9 songs from the last 10 or so years during which Stevie has released two solo records, a boxed set, a new song on The Dance, and the nine songs and many, many submitted but unused demos for SYW. So, yes, LB writes a great song - I am in no way saying he does not. I am just saying Stevie's songs are better written from my point of view and in general. Moreover, if you took nine of Stevie's best from 1987 to this day - I think Stevie would win. But, everyone has different tastes, etc.

Carolina Girl

05-04-2004, 01:26 PM

Looks like a landslide victory for Stevie ;)

David

05-04-2004, 01:48 PM

Please. Every lyricist, even Dylan and Joni Mitchell (the best), play around with grammar rules. Hello--"The Skie's the Limit"!!!!????!!!!

Stevie isn't any worse than the others.Looking for solecisms in rock songs is just silly. The casual grammar in rock lyrics is frequently preferable to the traditional forms because of tone. We don't need no education packs a stronger punch than the bloodless verbal alternative of avoiding the double negative.

One of Stevie's most hypnotic & powerful phrases (& one that's repeated probably fifty times in the song) is a double solecism: Just like the white-winged dove sings a song/Sounds like she's singing

We all remember from our high school grammars that "like" isn't a conjunction, but in this situation, who cares? It's the song, man.

(And it's actually a masterly use of hard consonants or alliteratives.)

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 01:48 PM

Yes, LB writes a great song and his songs are better on SYW than Stevie's in general, although Stevie's songs certainly are great. However and to be fair, as I noted above and in the post you refer to, LB's songs on SYW reflect 9 songs from the last 10 or so years during which Stevie has released two solo records, a boxed set, a new song on The Dance, and the nine songs and many, many submitted but unused demos for SYW. So, yes, LB writes a great song - I am in no way saying he does not. I am just saying Stevie's songs are better written from my point of view and in general. Moreover, if you took nine of Stevie's best from 1987 to this day - I think Stevie would win. But, everyone has different tastes, etc.

Quality over quantity, my Southern-fried friend. Quality. :p

wondergirl9847

05-04-2004, 01:51 PM

Exactly. Who the frick wants to sing "We do not need any education..." WTH?! LOL

Not I, said the fly. :laugh:

dissention

05-04-2004, 02:25 PM

I hadn't noticed any uniquely Poe references in POTU. I must be slipping. Perhaps I was too distracted by the blatant TISL demo / dirge "Annabel Lee."

Annabel Lee drives me bonkers. If that ever makes it onto an album, I'll die.

I'm a Poe fanatic, so I noticed the rip-offs in Planets immediately. She's a slick one, though, because she steals from quite a few of his poems in just that one song. :laugh: The poems that I pinpointed right away were Dream Land, Serenade, and Eulalie. I'm sure there are more. ;)

I've noticed that she likes to steal from Oscar Wilde, too. Have you? Read some of his work and you'll be shocked at her blatant use of it.

dissention

05-04-2004, 02:27 PM

Besides, Strandman already admitted months ago he likes Lindsey's SYW stuff better.

We'll get him to the darkside eventually. ;)

strandinthewind

05-04-2004, 03:04 PM

Quality over quantity, my Southern-fried friend. Quality. :p

Well, I certainly was not implying that :laugh: I was saying Stevie has released more great work than LB in the same time span.

CarneVaca

05-04-2004, 03:17 PM

Well, I certainly was not implying that :laugh: I was saying Stevie has released more great work than LB in the same time span.

Well, friend, you have been mislead.

Johnny Stew

05-04-2004, 03:38 PM

Quality over quantity, my Southern-fried friend. Quality. :p

We've had this argument before, too (imagine that!).

Lindsey has released three solo albums over the course of 23 years (starting in 1981), and has contributed to six Fleetwood Mac albums over the course of 29 years.

In contrast, Stevie has released six solo studio albums over the last 23 years, and has contributed to seven Mac studio albums over the last 29.

Each of Stevie's solo albums has had its share of clunkers, as a matter of opinion. But then, also as a matter of opinion, Lindsey's three albums have each had their own share of clunkers, too (roughly two or three per album). Even 'Out Of The Cradle' and his 'Gift Of Screws' material.

If we were to go through and cut Stevie's solo output down to a comparable 33 songs (the number of tracks on Lindsey's albums, totalled without the instrumental/spoken intros on 'Cradle'), and assuming that only the best of Stevie's material over the course of those 23 years would have been included (assuming the fact that, given the length between his releases, LB only used the best of his material)... then I'd say Stevie would be ahead of LB.

And if we're going to compare songs written at roughly the same time... "Trouble In Shangri-La," "Fall From Grace," "Bombay Sapphires" and "Everybody Finds Out," next to "Peacekeeper," "Miranda," "Steal Your Heart Away," and "Murrow," they'd be roughly neck and neck.

When we did that "rank the 'Say You Will' songs" thread, and everyone on these boards had an opportunity to weigh-in, JWD crunched the numbers, and overall it was Stevie's songs that dominated the top 10 out of all the rankings. Discounting older songs like "Goodbye Baby" and "Smile At You," she was still ahead of Lindsey overall.

Most fans tend to feel that 'Out Of The Cradle' is the pinnacle of his work, even when compared to his 'GOS/SYW' material. 'Cradle' was released 12 years ago.
Given that this is popular opinion, has Lindsey therefore also peaked creatively?

You and I would argue that he hasn't peaked creatively, but that would be a matter of opinion on our parts.
Just as it's a matter of opinion that anyone who thinks Stevie hasn't peaked, is merely deluding themselves. ;)

So, overall, I'd be inclined to say that Stevie offers quality AND quantity, when you consider her batting average over the years. :nod: :D

sodascouts

05-04-2004, 03:55 PM

If we were to go through and cut Stevie's solo output down to a comparable 33 songs (the number of tracks on Lindsey's albums, totalled without the instrumental/spoken intros on 'Cradle'), and assuming that only the best of Stevie's material over the course of those 23 years would have been included (assuming the fact that, given the length between his releases, LB only used the best of his material)... then I'd say Stevie would be ahead of LB.

Gotta love these elaborate hypothetical scenarios! ;)

Most fans tend to feel that 'Out Of The Cradle' is the pinnacle of his work, even when compared to his 'GOS/SYW' material. 'Cradle' was released 12 years ago.
Given that this is popular opinion, has Lindsey therefore also peaked creatively?

You and I would argue that he hasn't peaked creatively, but that would be a matter of opinion on our parts.
Just as it's a matter of opinion that anyone who thinks Stevie hasn't peaked, is merely deluding themselves. ;)

Smooth, very smooth! lol Let's hope neither of them have peaked. :)

David

05-04-2004, 04:41 PM

If we were to go through and cut Stevie's solo output down to a comparable 33 songs (the number of tracks on Lindsey's albums, totalled without the instrumental/spoken intros on 'Cradle'), and assuming that only the best of Stevie's material over the course of those 23 years would have been included (assuming the fact that, given the length between his releases, LB only used the best of his material)... then I'd say Stevie would be ahead of LB.Maybe our mistake is in comparing his songwriting output with her songwriting output. Since he himself has said (& I happen to agree with him) that his main contribution to the band isn't as a singer or writer or guitarist but as an arranger, we need to compare his arrangement highs & lows with her songwriting highs & lows (songwriting being her main love & contribution). They're both pretty damn good at their respective strengths.

Most fans tend to feel that 'Out Of The Cradle' is the pinnacle of his work, even when compared to his 'GOS/SYW' material. 'Cradle' was released 12 years ago.
Given that this is popular opinion, has Lindsey therefore also peaked creatively? I hate to sound like The Crank In The Wilderness (or maybe not), but I think the whole lot of 'em peaked creatively about 25 years ago.

At this point, I would like to see scientific experimentation conducted on them at any of the nation's top research institutions.