Planets of the Universe demo - They should do this live

[dontlookdown]

I was listening to Planets of the Universe on Rumours yesterday and realized that if Lindsey had produced the new version(from Trouble In Shangri La) it could have been so much stronger. I was thinking if he gave it a Big Love treatment with maybe just a little of that snare drum, it could be a perfect song to do live.

What a great addition to the summer tour.......

[MikeB]

I was listening to Planets of the Universe on Rumours yesterday and realized that if Lindsey had produced the new version(from Trouble In Shangri La) it could have been so much stronger.

Maybe,but the TISL version is MIGHTY FINE the way it is! Perfect even,I'd say. Especially the full version that's on the single.That's my very favourite.

[strandinthewind]

I think he could have gotten her to sing higher and better than she did on the TISL one, which I like , do not get me wrong.

But, I LOVE Shanks' production.

[sparky]

I really like the TISL version of this song, but the times I saw it live, the pace was draggy, and the song fell flat.

[secret love]

I enjoyed listening to the demo of Stevie singing and playing the piano beautifully for Planets of the Universe in 1976 or 1977, just gorgeous.

What I wanted to share along with the audio of this version of the song, is my admiration for that beautiful piano playing...but more importantly and what I hope will be the focus of this thread is:

The deleted verse missing from the 2001 single Planets of the Universe and what it says about the likelihood of Stevie and Lindsey ever after 1977 getting it on or getting back together.

It's quite callous, really, if you listen to it she sings about dying slowly, it being only what was best. She talks about Lindsey ruling her, condescending to her and being quite simply not interested in how his behaviour makes her feel - stupid and unwanted.

I really just have so much trouble believing the Shippers that anything could ever happen between Buckingham and Nicks, or even that anything did happen post 1977 when their relationship officially broke up ...what was it 1966-1977 ...2 years of that they were just friends I think?

It was a nine or ten year relationship, probably analogous to a de facto marriage relationship.

It was over at the end of 1977.

Lindsey met Kirsten in 1997 and found out during The Dance that she was pregnant with their first child.

Stevie says she knew it was over between her and Lindsey forever once he had kids.

If you listen to Thrown Down, it isn't about an affair. It is about something that didn't happen because Stevie wouldn't do that to Kirsten.

She pushed Lindsey away in 1997 because she didn't want that, you know, awkwardness of being the scarlet woman!

Anyway...what are your thoughts, Ledgies, Shippers included?

I have heard all manner of stories here and there about an affair in 1997 knocked on the head by Kirsten's pregnancy.

I have heard about a 2003/2004 Lindsey/Stevie affair that was the cause of Stevie's misery and recollections of an unhappy tour.

I don't know, but Come was very suggestive about someone living in the guest room, she's been here a while, well I guess she goes in style!

Anyway...I guess, what do you think? Do you believe after all the nasty things they said and did to each other post-1977 break-up that BN could ever reconcile those differences in the following 36 years?

By that I mean get back together romantically post-1977 and not just remain friends.

In 2009 for the Don't Stop documentary Stevie Nicks said the most awful things about Lindsey, saying she saw him in 2003 and 2004 while on tour and that they had barely spoken since then, that they weren't friends and that maybe when Fleetwood Mac was a distant memory when they were both 75 years old, then they could possibly be friends again.

That just doesn't sound to me anyway like the kind of things you say about a guy fans have held up as the love of her life.

Thoughts?

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[sanders8323]

I read in an interview once where Lindsey said something along the lines that he didn't know what to do with "Planets of the Universe" and was pleased with the way it turned out on the Touble in Shangri-La album. I guess that's why it didn't end up on Rumours or any subsequent Mac album before Stevie's Trouble Shangri-La. You can tell in the demo that it just kind of meanders and doesn't really go anywhere.

[nicole21290]

The deleted verse missing from the 2001 single Planets of the Universe and what it says about the likelihood of Stevie and Lindsey ever after 1977 getting it on or getting back together.

It's quite callous, really, if you listen to it she sings about dying slowly, it being only what was best. She talks about Lindsey ruling her, condescending to her and being quite simply not interested in how his behaviour makes her feel - stupid and unwanted.

"That was a huge statement for me to make, a very harsh thing for me to say,” Nicks explains. “It was just for six months [that I felt that]. I was depressed about love. The song was written when we were recording ‘Rumours’ in San Francisco. I was tired of the city and very, very angry at Lindsey. How strange and funny, though, that I have lived alone all that time since." [2001]

I think you'll enjoy this clip (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/83ky3g72q0u0poy/Intro_to_POTU_-_Santa_Barbara_(17.08.2001).mp3). This is from a 2001 concert.

"Alright, there's a story which goes with this next song. Of course I have to tell you. Um, Planets of the Universe was written in 1976 at the end of the first two months of the recording of Rumours, of which we did that in San Francisco and then we went to LA with all the tracks pretty much done, back to LA. And this is when Lindsey and I really broke up forever. And I wrote this song. And I love this song and, of course, for the last thirty years, every time we do a record, I would present this song and Lindsey would say 'I don't think so'. So I went back about a year and a half ago and sat down at my piano and tried to write something to it to soften it, y'know, to make it more like the way that we are now. Because we do love each other and we're not angry with each other anymore. So I wanted to somehow get that in. So this is what it became, this particular Planets of the Universe."

I really just have so much trouble believing the Shippers that anything could ever happen between Buckingham and Nicks, or even that anything did happen post 1977 when their relationship officially broke up ...what was it 1966-1977 ...2 years of that they were just friends I think?

Well, the relationship officially broke up while they were recording Rumours, not in 1977.

"I’m just the one who stopped it…. In Sausalito, up at the little condominium. Lindsey & I were still enough together that he would come up there and sleep every once in a while. And we had a terrible fight ~ I don’t remember what about, but I remember him walking out and me saying, ‘You take the car with all the stuff, and I’m flying back.’"

The May 10th 1976 edition of Newsweek said:

"Fleetwood Mac has not lost it's ability to persevere in the face of adversity. Last year it survived the breakup of the McVies’ marriage, and it also seems likely to withstand the breakup, two weeks ago, of Buckingham and Nicks’s six-year relationship. The group is mid-way through recording a new album, and it feels the pressure to produce another best seller. Most of the songs are about the problematic relationships in the band. “It’s going to be Mary Harman on wax,” says John McVie.

However, an excerpt from her diary from August 24th 1977 says:

"One more time, on the plane. As usual, Lindsey is his usual asshole self. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that Lindsey and I are at an end. So sad to see good love go bad."

She later said:

"Lindsey and I had been going together from about 1971 to 1976. But we never really broke up until that moment [his leaving in 1987]."

And then even later said:

Asked when she knew the romance was really over, Nicks said, “The day his first child was born. I knew that was it … that was the definitive thing.”

Last year, she compared her relationship with Mick with that of her and Lindsey, directly making a comparison between the ROMANTIC relationship, not the general one.

"Our relationship didn’t last a long time, Mick’s and mine. It was a year. And Lindsey’s and mine’s relationship lasted from when we first met in 1968 and I joined his band up until now."

Even Carol Ann Harris has said she knew Lindsey still loved Stevie throughout that whole relationship. They embraced/made out/hugged for quite some time after the Rolling Stone shoot, for example: “After all that we’d been through, knowing that we loved each other – somehow, we just couldn’t get up.” Neither could get closure. When Stevie did her Oprah Masterclass she said: "When you have a love affair that Lindsey and I had, it never goes away and nobody really got over it"

Lindsey met Kirsten in 1997 and found out during The Dance that she was pregnant with their first child.

They met a year or two earlier, I believe, though the facts of their meeting and so forth don't all quite add for me.

1997 and 1998 are interesting ones. He was seen on her tour in 1998, for goodness' sake. Also, the way she draws parallels here fascinates me...

"To break up with somebody and see them the next morning in the, hotel breakfast room, possibly with another person—uh—was about as difficult a situation as you could possibly imagine. And for me to walk into the breakfast room and see Lindsey sitting with a girl…I mean it was a—an instant U-turn in the first place, and uh, I mean it was—it was enough to make me absolutely ill. I have enough respect for the seven years that we went together and lived together. And, for all that he taught me, and all that he did for my music and the incredible—the incredible experience of being with him for seven years, I would never ever ever do something like that to hurt him. So it’s still difficult. After all this time. It’s almost exactly the same as it was when we did Rumours. You know what Lindsey is like, as—as difficult as our life has been, together and apart…he and I—he—he’s like, you know when something go— something happens to you that's bad and your mother calls you or your dad calls you, and you pick up the phone and you hear their burst and you just burst into tears. Lindsey is that, to me, because I’ve known him for so long."

Stevie says she knew it was over between her and Lindsey forever once he had kids.

True. And yet...

"There’s nothing going on between you and me except that there will always be something going on between you and me. Until the day we die”

"In many, many ways, Lindsey and I are still the same people that we were when we met at 16 and 17. There’s a part of our relationship that remains unchanged. It doesn’t matter that he’s married with kids. It doesn’t matter what my life is.”

"My relationship with Lindsey is pretty much the pivotal one in my life… Meeting him was my destiny… It doesn’t matter whether the other person has married or had children. What matters are the things you experienced together.”

"We’re always going to be Lindsey and Stevie. It was the same when we were 16 and 17 as it is now that we’re 63 and 64. We’re exactly the same people.”

“That electric crazy attraction between Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, never will die, never will go away. He’s married, he’s happy, he has three beautiful children that I love. You know, he’s found a good, happy, calm, safe place — but who Lindsey and I are to each other will never change.”

"Now I just adore him,” says Nicks, with ravishing candour. “He is my love. My first love and my love for all time.”

"Sometimes he takes me back to 1971 - he’s still thin and pretty gorgeous. Often, I think we live in a parallel universe, where we’re not sure if it is 1973 or 2003”

If you listen to Thrown Down, it isn't about an affair. It is about something that didn't happen because Stevie wouldn't do that to Kirsten. She pushed Lindsey away in 1997 because she didn't want that, you know, awkwardness of being the scarlet woman!

Really!? I don't hear the same things in that song as you do, apparently. :lol: I think Stevie can live with 'awkward'...

I have heard about a 2003/2004 Lindsey/Stevie affair that was the cause of Stevie's misery and recollections of an unhappy tour.

The problems during the making of the album, her health issues, and Kristen's presence at so much of that tour certainly didn't help, but I don't think it's quite as simple as you're portraying it. It also isn't recollected by either of them as an 'unhappy' tour - it was one of polarity, with great highs and great lows.

I don't know, but Come was very suggestive about someone living in the guest room, she's been here a while, well I guess she goes in style!

When prompted, he said it was about Anne Heche. Now, I don't believe that, personally, but I don't think it's anything to do with an affair with Stevie during that period of time.

Do you believe after all the nasty things they said and did to each other post-1977 break-up that BN could ever reconcile those differences in the following 36 years?

Yes, I do. There will always be some baggage and unresolved issues but they've had numerous 'talks' and conversations and had to apologise and forgive and learn to trust either each other, and have said as much.

By that I mean get back together romantically post-1977 and not just remain friends.

I think they did, though not in an open, committed relationship like pre-1976, obviously. I'm very interested in their lyrics over the past decade, particularly from Lindsey, about finding truth, the underground, lying, crossing lines, dreams, hiding, and so on.

In 2009 for the Don't Stop documentary Stevie Nicks said the most awful things about Lindsey, saying she saw him in 2003 and 2004 while on tour and that they had barely spoken since then, that they weren't friends and that maybe when Fleetwood Mac was a distant memory when they were both 75 years old, then they could possibly be friends again.[quote]

That documentary didn't catch her on a good day, did it? ;) Funnily enough, that same year she was doing an interview where she was talking about how his kids were and acted at home (Will, quiet in the corner, etc). Even though in the documentary she said she'd never been to his home. I find it nearly impossible for the Stevie who said she INSISTED on being part of Leelee's life, who bought gifts for the kids, who said she felt like Leelee was her own, and (in 2013) that she "gets them [the kids] too", to barely see or speak to Lindsey during the SYW to Unleashed period, regardless of how much she has spoken about that period.

I'm certain they saw solo shows by the other person during that timeframe too. Certainly, there are enough people who saw him during one night at her Vegas gigs in 2005, even if Cory B said he wasn't there. They LIE.

The friends issue is hilarious. It depends on the interview, her view on that one. Basically, though, if she's speaking off the cuff in a concert, she's far more likely to acknowledge their strong friendship.

"But Lindsey and I have come through this whole thing, and we are still friends somehow. He lives 10 minutes from me. I can jump in the car and go over there." [2001]

"So now with his new relationship that’s really great for me, because it allows me to be his friend, and hang out with him and see him." [2001]

In 2010, he was introduced as her partner in crime and her 'oldest, dearest friend'. In 2013 she called him her 'other half' and thanked him for his years of friendship.

[quote]That just doesn't sound to me anyway like the kind of things you say about a guy fans have held up as the love of her life.

How about these some of the above things quoted, then? He's the one she has said is her first call when things go wrong and people they love die. Whenever she speaks about her long-term future, he plays a prominent role. She constantly 'sees' their relationship in songs and films, and compares them, to this day, to a 'power couple' like Johnny and June, or George and Gracie.

SHE'S held him up as the love of her life; it's not something fans have made up, lol. *listens to My Heart on repeat*

They have a pattern for the fans and the press. It goes something like this.

They begin doing press for an upcoming tour. “Lindsey and I barely spoke since the last tour. We had a good long talk. The baggage is gone. It’s so nice being his friend again because we weren’t before. We’re closer than we’ve been since *insert date here*”. The tour goes ahead and, as usual, Lindsey and Stevie act like married sweethearts. The tour ends, they go their separate ways, and soon begin doing interviews claiming they barely speak, that they had a big argument, that Lindsey is happily married to someone else and that Stevie’s greatest love was Joe. Rinse and repeat…

The end result of this is that fans use their latter comments about how crap the tour was for them both to claim that how they acted onstage was all an ‘act’ and that shippers are gullible for thinking something was going on. Another result is that it means for the next tour, there’s an automatic ‘story’ to lead with - the ‘reconciliation’ between SnL. In addition, it takes pressure off them for the solo period between getting back together for Fleetwood Mac. It means what the relationship is or isn’t in actuality isn’t questioned for those periods of time because everyone thinks they’re on the outs. Which they’re not. Not always and not to the same extent as some people assume, anyway.

ALL THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OPINION.

[nicole21290]

I read in an interview once where Lindsey said something along the lines that he didn't know what to do with "Planets of the Universe" and was pleased with the way it turned out on the Touble in Shangri-La album. I guess that's why it didn't end up on Rumours or any subsequent Mac album before Stevie's Trouble Shangri-La. You can tell in the demo that it just kind of meanders and doesn't really go anywhere.

Stevie certainly said that in her Crystal Visions written commentary on the song.

"These are some of the meanest lyrics I have ever written. I started trying to record this song in the early seventies, but we just couldn’t seem to capture it as a Fleetwood Mac song. Something was always missing. Many years passed, and though I didn’t hold out much hope, I tried to record the song once again for Trouble In Shangri-La, which was produced by Sheryl Crow and John Shanks. I will be eternally grateful to John, who helped find the missing piece that added the magic the song needed. Ironically, at the first playback for Trouble In Shangri-La, Lindsey went up to John and said, ‘Wow, I’m blown away. You actually captured this song that Stevie’s been singing for as long as I can remember.’"

Apparently, he thought the album was good. Though, again, we have to rely on Stevie's say-so.

"Lindsey heard Trouble in Shangri-la, and he said, ‘I think it’s the best thing you’ve ever done,’” says Nicks. “That’s about the nicest thing he’s ever said to me. You know, he’s never really acknowledged my solo career. I think maybe he respects me a little more now - maybe he’s finally proud of me."

[lovethemac1]

"That was a huge statement for me to make, a very harsh thing for me to say,” Nicks explains. “It was just for six months [that I felt that]. I was depressed about love. The song was written when we were recording ‘Rumours’ in San Francisco. I was tired of the city and very, very angry at Lindsey. How strange and funny, though, that I have lived alone all that time since." [2001]

I think you'll enjoy this clip (http://www.mediafire.com/listen/83ky3g72q0u0poy/Intro_to_POTU_-_Santa_Barbara_(17.08.2001).mp3). This is from a 2001 concert.

"Alright, there's a story which goes with this next song. Of course I have to tell you. Um, Planets of the Universe was written in 1976 at the end of the first two months of the recording of Rumours, of which we did that in San Francisco and then we went to LA with all the tracks pretty much done, back to LA. And this is when Lindsey and I really broke up forever. And I wrote this song. And I love this song and, of course, for the last thirty years, every time we do a record, I would present this song and Lindsey would say 'I don't think so'. So I went back about a year and a half ago and sat down at my piano and tried to write something to it to soften it, y'know, to make it more like the way that we are now. Because we do love each other and we're not angry with each other anymore. So I wanted to somehow get that in. So this is what it became, this particular Planets of the Universe."



Well, the relationship officially broke up while they were recording Rumours, not in 1977.

"I’m just the one who stopped it…. In Sausalito, up at the little condominium. Lindsey & I were still enough together that he would come up there and sleep every once in a while. And we had a terrible fight ~ I don’t remember what about, but I remember him walking out and me saying, ‘You take the car with all the stuff, and I’m flying back.’"

The May 10th 1976 edition of Newsweek said:

"Fleetwood Mac has not lost it's ability to persevere in the face of adversity. Last year it survived the breakup of the McVies’ marriage, and it also seems likely to withstand the breakup, two weeks ago, of Buckingham and Nicks’s six-year relationship. The group is mid-way through recording a new album, and it feels the pressure to produce another best seller. Most of the songs are about the problematic relationships in the band. “It’s going to be Mary Harman on wax,” says John McVie.

However, an excerpt from her diary from August 24th 1977 says:

"One more time, on the plane. As usual, Lindsey is his usual asshole self. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that Lindsey and I are at an end. So sad to see good love go bad."

She later said:

"Lindsey and I had been going together from about 1971 to 1976. But we never really broke up until that moment [his leaving in 1987]."

And then even later said:

Asked when she knew the romance was really over, Nicks said, “The day his first child was born. I knew that was it … that was the definitive thing.”

Last year, she compared her relationship with Mick with that of her and Lindsey, directly making a comparison between the ROMANTIC relationship, not the general one.

"Our relationship didn’t last a long time, Mick’s and mine. It was a year. And Lindsey’s and mine’s relationship lasted from when we first met in 1968 and I joined his band up until now."

Even Carol Ann Harris has said she knew Lindsey still loved Stevie throughout that whole relationship. They embraced/made out/hugged for quite some time after the Rolling Stone shoot, for example: “After all that we’d been through, knowing that we loved each other – somehow, we just couldn’t get up.” Neither could get closure. When Stevie did her Oprah Masterclass she said: "When you have a love affair that Lindsey and I had, it never goes away and nobody really got over it"



They met a year or two earlier, I believe, though the facts of their meeting and so forth don't all quite add for me.

1997 and 1998 are interesting ones. He was seen on her tour in 1998, for goodness' sake. Also, the way she draws parallels here fascinates me...

"To break up with somebody and see them the next morning in the, hotel breakfast room, possibly with another person—uh—was about as difficult a situation as you could possibly imagine. And for me to walk into the breakfast room and see Lindsey sitting with a girl…I mean it was a—an instant U-turn in the first place, and uh, I mean it was—it was enough to make me absolutely ill. I have enough respect for the seven years that we went together and lived together. And, for all that he taught me, and all that he did for my music and the incredible—the incredible experience of being with him for seven years, I would never ever ever do something like that to hurt him. So it’s still difficult. After all this time. It’s almost exactly the same as it was when we did Rumours. You know what Lindsey is like, as—as difficult as our life has been, together and apart…he and I—he—he’s like, you know when something go— something happens to you that's bad and your mother calls you or your dad calls you, and you pick up the phone and you hear their burst and you just burst into tears. Lindsey is that, to me, because I’ve known him for so long."



True. And yet...

"There’s nothing going on between you and me except that there will always be something going on between you and me. Until the day we die”

"In many, many ways, Lindsey and I are still the same people that we were when we met at 16 and 17. There’s a part of our relationship that remains unchanged. It doesn’t matter that he’s married with kids. It doesn’t matter what my life is.”

"My relationship with Lindsey is pretty much the pivotal one in my life… Meeting him was my destiny… It doesn’t matter whether the other person has married or had children. What matters are the things you experienced together.”

"We’re always going to be Lindsey and Stevie. It was the same when we were 16 and 17 as it is now that we’re 63 and 64. We’re exactly the same people.”

“That electric crazy attraction between Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, never will die, never will go away. He’s married, he’s happy, he has three beautiful children that I love. You know, he’s found a good, happy, calm, safe place — but who Lindsey and I are to each other will never change.”

"Now I just adore him,” says Nicks, with ravishing candour. “He is my love. My first love and my love for all time.”

"Sometimes he takes me back to 1971 - he’s still thin and pretty gorgeous. Often, I think we live in a parallel universe, where we’re not sure if it is 1973 or 2003”



Really!? I don't hear the same things in that song as you do, apparently. :lol: I think Stevie can live with 'awkward'...



The problems during the making of the album, her health issues, and Kristen's presence at so much of that tour certainly didn't help, but I don't think it's quite as simple as you're portraying it. It also isn't recollected by either of them as an 'unhappy' tour - it was one of polarity, with great highs and great lows.



When prompted, he said it was about Anne Heche. Now, I don't believe that, personally, but I don't think it's anything to do with an affair with Stevie during that period of time.



Yes, I do. There will always be some baggage and unresolved issues but they've had numerous 'talks' and conversations and had to apologise and forgive and learn to trust either each other, and have said as much.



I think they did, though not in an open, committed relationship like pre-1976, obviously. I'm very interested in their lyrics over the past decade, particularly from Lindsey, about finding truth, the underground, lying, crossing lines, dreams, hiding, and so on.

[quote]In 2009 for the Don't Stop documentary Stevie Nicks said the most awful things about Lindsey, saying she saw him in 2003 and 2004 while on tour and that they had barely spoken since then, that they weren't friends and that maybe when Fleetwood Mac was a distant memory when they were both 75 years old, then they could possibly be friends again.[quote]

That documentary didn't catch her on a good day, did it? ;) Funnily enough, that same year she was doing an interview where she was talking about how his kids were and acted at home (Will, quiet in the corner, etc). Even though in the documentary she said she'd never been to his home. I find it nearly impossible for the Stevie who said she INSISTED on being part of Leelee's life, who bought gifts for the kids, who said she felt like Leelee was her own, and (in 2013) that she "gets them [the kids] too", to barely see or speak to Lindsey during the SYW to Unleashed period, regardless of how much she has spoken about that period.

I'm certain they saw solo shows by the other person during that timeframe too. Certainly, there are enough people who saw him during one night at her Vegas gigs in 2005, even if Cory B said he wasn't there. They LIE.

The friends issue is hilarious. It depends on the interview, her view on that one. Basically, though, if she's speaking off the cuff in a concert, she's far more likely to acknowledge their strong friendship.

"But Lindsey and I have come through this whole thing, and we are still friends somehow. He lives 10 minutes from me. I can jump in the car and go over there." [2001]

"So now with his new relationship that’s really great for me, because it allows me to be his friend, and hang out with him and see him." [2001]

In 2010, he was introduced as her partner in crime and her 'oldest, dearest friend'. In 2013 she called him her 'other half' and thanked him for his years of friendship.



How about these some of the above things quoted, then? He's the one she has said is her first call when things go wrong and people they love die. Whenever she speaks about her long-term future, he plays a prominent role. She constantly 'sees' their relationship in songs and films, and compares them, to this day, to a 'power couple' like Johnny and June, or George and Gracie.

SHE'S held him up as the love of her life; it's not something fans have made up, lol. *listens to My Heart on repeat*

They have a pattern for the fans and the press. It goes something like this.

They begin doing press for an upcoming tour. “Lindsey and I barely spoke since the last tour. We had a good long talk. The baggage is gone. It’s so nice being his friend again because we weren’t before. We’re closer than we’ve been since *insert date here*”. The tour goes ahead and, as usual, Lindsey and Stevie act like married sweethearts. The tour ends, they go their separate ways, and soon begin doing interviews claiming they barely speak, that they had a big argument, that Lindsey is happily married to someone else and that Stevie’s greatest love was Joe. Rinse and repeat…

The end result of this is that fans use their latter comments about how crap the tour was for them both to claim that how they acted onstage was all an ‘act’ and that shippers are gullible for thinking something was going on. Another result is that it means for the next tour, there’s an automatic ‘story’ to lead with - the ‘reconciliation’ between SnL. In addition, it takes pressure off them for the solo period between getting back together for Fleetwood Mac. It means what the relationship is or isn’t in actuality isn’t questioned for those periods of time because everyone thinks they’re on the outs. Which they’re not. Not always and not to the same extent as some people assume, anyway.

ALL THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OPINION.

And your "opinion" is always so interesting to read. Thank you for taking all the time and effort to write such excellent, comprehensive posts. I love reading your disection of Lindsey and Stevie. Thank you.

[PenguinHead]

I enjoyed listening to the demo of Stevie singing and playing the piano beautifully for Planets of the Universe in 1976 or 1977, just gorgeous.

What I wanted to share along with the audio of this version of the song, is my admiration for that beautiful piano playing...but more importantly and what I hope will be the focus of this thread is:

The deleted verse missing from the 2001 single Planets of the Universe and what it says about the likelihood of Stevie and Lindsey ever after 1977 getting it on or getting back together.

It's quite callous, really, if you listen to it she sings about dying slowly, it being only what was best. She talks about Lindsey ruling her, condescending to her and being quite simply not interested in how his behaviour makes her feel - stupid and unwanted.

I really just have so much trouble believing the Shippers that anything could ever happen between Buckingham and Nicks, or even that anything did happen post 1977 when their relationship officially broke up ...what was it 1966-1977 ...2 years of that they were just friends I think?

It was a nine or ten year relationship, probably analogous to a de facto marriage relationship.

It was over at the end of 1977.

Lindsey met Kirsten in 1997 and found out during The Dance that she was pregnant with their first child.

Stevie says she knew it was over between her and Lindsey forever once he had kids.

If you listen to Thrown Down, it isn't about an affair. It is about something that didn't happen because Stevie wouldn't do that to Kirsten.

She pushed Lindsey away in 1997 because she didn't want that, you know, awkwardness of being the scarlet woman!

Anyway...what are your thoughts, Ledgies, Shippers included?


I have heard all manner of stories here and there about an affair in 1997 knocked on the head by Kirsten's pregnancy.

I have heard about a 2003/2004 Lindsey/Stevie affair that was the cause of Stevie's misery and recollections of an unhappy tour.

I don't know, but Come was very suggestive about someone living in the guest room, she's been here a while, well I guess she goes in style!

Anyway...I guess, what do you think? Do you believe after all the nasty things they said and did to each other post-1977 break-up that BN could ever reconcile those differences in the following 36 years?

By that I mean get back together romantically post-1977 and not just remain friends.

In 2009 for the Don't Stop documentary Stevie Nicks said the most awful things about Lindsey, saying she saw him in 2003 and 2004 while on tour and that they had barely spoken since then, that they weren't friends and that maybe when Fleetwood Mac was a distant memory when they were both 75 years old, then they could possibly be friends again.

That just doesn't sound to me anyway like the kind of things you say about a guy fans have held up as the love of her life.

Thoughts?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/-DJXwcgOmVg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The word "relationship" can be interpreted in many ways. How long were they together as boyfriend/girlfriend - a brief four years or so? It's clear to see why their relationship burned bright for a while then blew up. They had a combustible chemistry destined to end. But they were smart to realize they could channel that power creatively. You can still hate the one you love, but that love takes on a different form. This is the tension that still exists and fuels them. I feel the emotional remnants exist more in Stevie than with Lindsey, since Stevie seems to dwell more in the past and Lindsey has moved on. Look how different their lifestyles are now. Lindsey lives in a more domestic world with a wife and children; Stevie is forever single, roaming around the world, following her muse, living like a free spirit. She is supported by her assembled coven of women, and created a world where she answers to no one.

[HomerMcvie]

Stevie seems to dwell more in the past and Lindsey has moved on. Look how different their lifestyles are now. Lindsey lives in a more domestic world with a wife and children; Stevie is forever single, roaming around the world, following her muse, living like a free spirit. She is supported by her assembled coven of women, and created a world where she answers to no one.

That sounds mighty lonely...

[SteveMacD]

I kind of feel sorry for Stevie. I don't think Lindsey feels or has felt the same about their relationship. I think he played the part to keep the band going. Now that he has an enthusiastic creative partner with Christine's return, he doesn't feel the need to play that role anymore. That's why I think there's a coldness between them now.

It's too bad they can't have the relatively drama free relationship that the McVies have. Their marriage was rocky for six of the eight years they were married. They had a couple of rough years afterwards, but managed to become very good friends.

[secret love]

That sounds mighty lonely...
Stevie's lifestyle sounds closer to my life than the description of Lindsey Buckingham's domestic bliss with Kirsten and her kids.

Then again, I'm not really like either of them...I'm a 21 year old man who seems to be unemployable, who is a writer but has never published anything for sale, who composes my own songs that it seems unlikely anyone would ever buy...

Anyway, I won't go on about my life. Suffice to say I'm more of a spinster than a family man. Most of my friends are much older than me and although I am attracted to women my own age or slightly older, none ever seem to be attracted to me.

There is something about Stevie Nicks I identify with though. I'm not sure what it is, but I have a feeling that it is probably that conundrum of loving someone who doesn't love you back...the first girl I ever loved was 2 years older than me and treated me like crap...she would talk to me at school and we would follow each other around everywhere, at school, but then if she saw me in public she would not talk to me.

I think there is something in me that loves to hear a woman singing about loving someone who doesn't love her ...even if she is completely over Lindsey songs like You May be the One and Thrown Down just have that tragic beauty to them that makes them unforgettable.

[HomerMcvie]

I kind of feel sorry for Stevie. I don't think Lindsey feels or has felt the same about their relationship. I think he played the part to keep the band going. Now that he has an enthusiastic creative partner with Christine's return, he doesn't feel the need to play that role anymore. That's why I think there's a coldness between them now.

It's too bad they can't have the relatively drama free relationship that the McVies have. Their marriage was rocky for six of the eight years they were married. They had a couple of rough years afterwards, but managed to become very good friends.

Believe it or not, I do too. Lindsey grew up(even if it took him a long time), and went off and found happiness.

I don't think Stevie is capable of that. "The life she lives" is all she knows, or wants. And I think if she did change, she fears that that would be the end of her star trip...of everything she cherishes. And yes, even if she's sad about her life, her star trip means more than anything to her. That girl has always lived for the limelight.

[secret love]

Believe it or not, I do too. Lindsey grew up(even if it took him a long time), and went off and found happiness.

I don't think Stevie is capable of that. "The life she lives" is all she knows, or wants. And I think if she did change, she fears that that would be the end of her star trip...of everything she cherishes. And yes, even if she's sad about her life, her star trip means more than anything to her. That girl has always lived for the limelight.

Give me a break. She has a fantastic life. I don't feel sorry at all and I know from my own life and from my parents' lives post-divorce that you absolutely do not need a lover to make you happy.

In fact, the people I've always pitied are those who need to constantly be in a relationship in order to be happy. I think people like that who are otherwise intelligent, sane people are just so darn insecure that they will never find happiness on their own, when nobody else is around. That to me, is pathetic.

Living your life not dependent on a man or a woman? That to me is the definition of a strong, secure, happy and well-grounded individual. Not to need someone else, not to need I'll say it, sex...to make you happy. If you aren't having sex with someone, for those who haven't worked this out yet, you don't owe them anything. That's why relationships are hard work, because of sex complicating an otherwise lovely friendship.

I must say, I have so many great friends, men and women, none of us have ever been in relationships with each other but those friendships are in many ways more enriching than a romance could ever be.

[Iktomi]

Give me a break. She has a fantastic life. I don't feel sorry at all and I know from my own life and from my parents' lives post-divorce that you absolutely do not need a lover to make you happy.

In fact, the people I've always pitied are those who need to constantly be in a relationship in order to be happy. I think people like that who are otherwise intelligent, sane people are just so darn insecure that they will never find happiness on their own, when nobody else is around. That to me, is pathetic.

Living your life not dependent on a man or a woman? That to me is the definition of a strong, secure, happy and well-grounded individual. Not to need someone else, not to need I'll say it, sex...to make you happy. If you aren't having sex with someone, for those who haven't worked this out yet, you don't owe them anything. That's why relationships are hard work, because of sex complicating an otherwise lovely friendship.

I must say, I have so many great friends, men and women, none of us have ever been in relationships with each other but those friendships are in many ways more enriching than a romance could ever be.

I agree that being a well-rounded and secure individual is important. Many people don't know how to be alone. That all being said, being in a relationship is not about depending on others. It's an interesting way to frame relationships. All relationships are about dependence in a way, and as humans, we do rely on one another. Numerous well-rounded and secure individuals are quite capable of being in a relationship, and can successfully balance their needs with the needs of the relationship. If you fear being consumed or fear that your independence will be stripped by being in a relationship, then really, you might not be in a truly secure place.

Relationships are just part of human existence. Depending on others does not make one weak. It's about balance and knowing when to give and take. I know you don't want to hear this, but you're still a very young individual...don't be so hard on love, romance, and relationships. You can still be a spirited individual/independent and be in love simultaneously. Knowing how to balance that is, in my opinion, what makes for a emotionally mature and well-balanced, and strong, human being.

[WatchChain]

It was over at the end of 1977.

Lindsey met Kirsten in 1997 and found out during The Dance that she was pregnant with their first child.

Stevie says she knew it was over between her and Lindsey forever once he had kids.

If you listen to Thrown Down, it isn't about an affair. It is about something that didn't happen because Stevie wouldn't do that to Kirsten.

She pushed Lindsey away in 1997 because she didn't want that, you know, awkwardness of being the scarlet woman!

Anyway...what are your thoughts, Ledgies, Shippers included?

I have heard all manner of stories here and there about an affair in 1997 knocked on the head by Kirsten's pregnancy.

I have heard about a 2003/2004 Lindsey/Stevie affair that was the cause of Stevie's misery and recollections of an unhappy tour.

I don't know, but Come was very suggestive about someone living in the guest room, she's been here a while, well I guess she goes in style!

Anyway...I guess, what do you think? Do you believe after all the nasty things they said and did to each other post-1977 break-up that BN could ever reconcile those differences in the following 36 years?

By that I mean get back together romantically post-1977 and not just remain friends.

In 2009 for the Don't Stop documentary Stevie Nicks said the most awful things about Lindsey, saying she saw him in 2003 and 2004 while on tour and that they had barely spoken since then, that they weren't friends and that maybe when Fleetwood Mac was a distant memory when they were both 75 years old, then they could possibly be friends again.

That just doesn't sound to me anyway like the kind of things you say about a guy fans have held up as the love of her life.


Though I'm sure they will always harbor some kind of special place in each other's hearts, I feel that Lindsey and Stevie have NEVER had ANY kind of romantic or physical relationship post 1977.....PERIOD. It just doesn't seem possible to me with the madness of Stevie's life and that's the bottom line. Moreover, the idea of a possible 1997 affair between Stevie and Lindsey is ludicrous. I'm sorry to say, but Lindsey, like most aging male rockers who consider themselves gods, likes his women much younger (20's or 30's). In 1997, a 49 year old Stevie Nicks would have been WAY TOO OLD for his taste. I'm not saying that Lindsey did not love her in some twisted way, but as far as hooking up and restarting the relationship, there was NO chance. Those who think otherwise are living in the same FANTASY WORLD of castles, alice in wonderland, great dark wings, and storms that Stevie Nicks is.

[HomerMcvie]

Though I'm sure they will always harbor some kind of special place in each other's hearts, I feel that Lindsey and Stevie have NEVER had ANY kind of romantic or physical relationship post 1977.....PERIOD. It just doesn't seem possible to me with the madness of Stevie's life and that's the bottom line. Moreover, the idea of a possible 1997 affair between Stevie and Lindsey is ludicrous. I'm sorry to say, but Lindsey, like most aging male rockers who consider themselves gods, likes his women much younger (20's or 30's). In 1997, a 49 year old Stevie Nicks would have been WAY TOO OLD for his taste. I'm not saying that Lindsey did not love her in some twisted way, but as far as hooking up and restarting the relationship, there was NO chance. Those who think otherwise are living in the same FANTASY WORLD of castles, alice in wonderland, great dark wings, and storms that Stevie Nicks is.

You are my hero/heroine. I'm buying you a virtual drink! :angel:

[secret love]

Though I'm sure they will always harbor some kind of special place in each other's hearts, I feel that Lindsey and Stevie have NEVER had ANY kind of romantic or physical relationship post 1977.....PERIOD. It just doesn't seem possible to me with the madness of Stevie's life and that's the bottom line. Moreover, the idea of a possible 1997 affair between Stevie and Lindsey is ludicrous. I'm sorry to say, but Lindsey, like most aging male rockers who consider themselves gods, likes his women much younger (20's or 30's). In 1997, a 49 year old Stevie Nicks would have been WAY TOO OLD for his taste. I'm not saying that Lindsey did not love her in some twisted way, but as far as hooking up and restarting the relationship, there was NO chance. Those who think otherwise are living in the same FANTASY WORLD of castles, alice in wonderland, great dark wings, and storms that Stevie Nicks is.

Given that there are scientists who believe that the first person to live to 150 years of age has already been born, at 49 years old, Stevie was really not very old at all. Plus, she was smoking hot!

Hell, she's still hot! I'm 21 and I'd get with Stevie! Why not?

It's like Kylie Minogue ...the Kylie factor
The Nicks factor :cool:

[secret love]

I agree that being a well-rounded and secure individual is important. Many people don't know how to be alone. That all being said, being in a relationship is not about depending on others. It's an interesting way to frame relationships. All relationships are about dependence in a way, and as humans, we do rely on one another. Numerous well-rounded and secure individuals are quite capable of being in a relationship, and can successfully balance their needs with the needs of the relationship. If you fear being consumed or fear that your independence will be stripped by being in a relationship, then really, you might not be in a truly secure place.

Relationships are just part of human existence. Depending on others does not make one weak. It's about balance and knowing when to give and take. I know you don't want to hear this, but you're still a very young individual...don't be so hard on love, romance, and relationships. You can still be a spirited individual/independent and be in love simultaneously. Knowing how to balance that is, in my opinion, what makes for a emotionally mature and well-balanced, and strong, human being.

You could call me Mr Have a Chat, because I have for a long time loved to talk. I don't find it difficult like I did as a child to make friends, any more.

I don't mind being told I'm still very young, in fact it quite nice to hear when I do feel older than my years. I still get mistake by strangers for a 16 year old, 5 years less than my true age. The drinking age in my country is 18 and when I go out with my family, often I will be asked for ID but my 18 year old brother will not be. Maybe it's because he has dark brown to black hair while I have auburn, light-brown hair and ginger facial hair?

I agree that balance is important.

I do know how to be alone and how to enjoy it, frankly I love the time I have just to myself, whether it's walking the dog or spending the night at dad's place in the Blue Mountains while he is away, eating pepperoni pizza and watching Fleetwood Mac concert DVDs, for example.

In those moments I'm not longing for someone to share it with, it is great for what it is, a moment to myself to watch TV or listen to talkback radio, or to read the paper and have a coffee in a local café.

I haven't written off relationships, quite the contrary.

I did have a bad experience at age 14-16 with a girl who was very immature and vindictive despite being 2 years older than me, at high school.

Since then I have been careful about who I let into my heart, especially when it comes to women.

What I was referring to specifically, was people who break up with their current squeeze and within a week have taken up with someone else. That to me, truly is pathetic, clingy and weak if that person is otherwise financially independent and of reasonable intelligence.

Like I said, I have divorced parents, a Mum who has not had a long-term relationship in 12 years and a dad who had 7.5 years with the other woman and 4.5 years on his own.

It was quite embarrassing for me how persistently my dad pursued the woman he left my mum for, after they had indeed mutually agreed to split up with one another.

I have always admired my mum for the strength she has had to be single for so long. She isn't weaker because of it. She is a strong independent woman, which is just who Stevie Nicks is - although I would willingly put my mum as much more independent, technology savvy and probably more intelligent than Stevie Nicks. Mum doesn't need a P.A. for example.

I've been in love before and been hurt. I'm not afraid to love again. I just haven't found the right person and that doesn't bother me.

I have a fulfilling life as a single man and I don't feel the need to apologise for it or to make concessions that my life would be better if I had a girlfriend. Because it wouldn't be better. I like my life how it is.

If the right person came along and a romantic relationship naturally evolved over time, then that would be fine.

Still, I believe I am a strong-willed, opinionated and reasonably intelligent individual. I have friends, I have family, I have hobbies and interests, I have my dog, I have my exercise. My life is complete as it is, even without a spouse or children. If that happens one day, then so be it. If not, then that is fine too. I am determined not to die "sad and alone" but if I'm happy to be alone and fate has it that I don't find someone before I drop off, I really just don't care because my life is meaningful, happy and complete already. That's why I'm not on RSVP or e Harmony or any of that online dating crap, because I really don't feel the need to dedicate my energies to finding a woman partner when I have so much more to focus on: study, work, friends and family. If I do meet someone and it feels right after a few months together ... well then, I'm ready to settle down very quickly and I will be in a better position financially than if I was still with someone I met at age 17

[FuzzyPlum]

Given that there are scientists who believe that the first person to live to 150 years of age has already been born, at 49 years old, Stevie was really not very old at all. Plus, she was smoking hot!

Hell, she's still hot! I'm 21 and I'd get with Stevie! Why not?



Oh come on, think carefully about what you're saying FFS. She's 66 years old- more than old enough to be your grandmother. I don't even want to think about it.

Kristen- she was and still is a babe...no contest.

[WatchChain]

You are my hero/heroine. I'm buying you a virtual drink! :angel:

Thank you, I'll take an Absolute and Tonic....make it a double and throw it down like a barricade.

[secret love]

Oh come on, think carefully about what you're saying FFS. She's 66 years old- more than old enough to be your grandmother. I don't even want to think about it.

Kristen- she was and still is a babe...no contest.

But she's ****ing Stevie Nicks, who cares how old she is?

Who wouldn't get with Stevie just to be able to say, Stevie Nicks and I did it last night?

I don't feel that way about stranger 66 year old women, only the celebrity rock and roll goddess that is Stephanie Lynn Nicks.

As I said, it's like Kyle Minogue, yeah she's old enough to be my mother, but hey she's Kylie Minogue. It's the Kylie factor! It's the Nicks factor! The celebrity, the fame, the hotpants, the shawls and the flares ...it makes Kylie Minogue or Stevie Nicks an entirely different romantic proposition to Mrs Smith who lives down the road and bakes cookies for her grandchildren.

:sorry:

For me anyway, in a contest between Stevie Nicks and Kirsten Buckingham...Nicks will win every time...it's not about age or physical beauty so much as this is a woman who is mates with Tom Petty, Dave Stewart, Dave Grohl...this is a woman who is as beautiful now as she was ten years ago and a woman who is kind, caring, thoughtful...despite her music being inward looking, see how much she helps younger artists like Lady Antebellum and Haim? Kirsten is a celebrity hanger on who has no idea what fame is like and who married a guy nearly old enough to be her (young) dad.

This is Stevie Nicks who whenever I watch The Dance, I swoon over, despite then she was 48 or 49 years old and my mother is currently 50 years old.

What can I say? I think she was smoking hot then in 1997 and I still believe she's smoking hot in 2014.

[brad975]

I have to say that I'm weary of the Stevie & Lindsey romance story. Every article or program you see on Fleetwood Mac recycles it. Because it's apparently been so fascinating to people for so long, I think Stevie & Lindsey feel obliged to feed the media machine with the story and continually hint at their never-ending love/hate.

"Everybody was breaking up (even Mick)."

We've heard it. Over and over.

Anyone who wants to know why they didn't work out can certainly read between the lines on "Rumours." But they'd gain just as much insight by watching "Destiny Rules."

I'm frankly surprised Lindsey let that documentary be released. Because he came off like a douche in a lot of scenes. And that's even with Botox disguising a lot of Stevie's disgust.

I'm not sure if two narcissists could ever work out well romantically.

[elle]

I have to say that I'm weary of the Stevie & Lindsey romance story. Every article or program you see on Fleetwood Mac recycles it. Because it's apparently been so fascinating to people for so long, I think Stevie & Lindsey feel obliged to feed the media machine with the story and continually hint at their never-ending love/hate.

"Everybody was breaking up (even Mick)."

We've heard it. Over and over.

Anyone who wants to know why they didn't work out can certainly read between the lines on "Rumours." But they'd gain just as much insight by watching "Destiny Rules."

I'm frankly surprised Lindsey let that documentary be released. Because he came off like a douche in a lot of scenes. And that's even with Botox disguising a lot of Stevie's disgust.

I'm not sure if two narcissists could ever work out well romantically.

see, i read observations like this before ever watching Destiny Rules doc. and then i actually watched it for the first time, and was shocked and confused because i have no clue what is it that you all are talking about? can you clarify for me, in which scenes is he coming off as a narcissistic douche?