Did the doc hurt Lindsey?

[wondergirl9847]

I'm sitting here thinking that there has been lots of "haterade" (LOL!!) towards Lindsey lately after the doc. Anyone else feel that way? :( I don't mean hate in the literal sense of hating someone, I just mean, people look at him as a whiney (DANG, I hate that word right now along with cheesy) jerk who doesn't know what he's talking about. He's out of the loop and needs to get a life.

Did the doc change people's minds about Lindsey one way or the other?

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I'm sitting here thinking that there has been lots of "haterade" (LOL!!) towards Lindsey lately after the doc. Anyone else feel that way? :( I don't mean hate in the literal sense of hating someone, I just mean, people look at him as a whiney (DANG, I hate that word right now along with cheesy) jerk who doesn't know what he's talking about. He's out of the loop and needs to get a life.

Did the doc change people's minds about Lindsey one way or the other?

No, even though I haver criticized him a bit, I love him just the same. It's like that you know, always criticize the ones you love? I just want what's best for Fleetwood Mac when it's a band effort. God, I'm starting to sound like Stevie! :laugh:

[Les]

For the most part, I think the documentary mostly just reinforced the feelings someone already had before they saw it. Most of the harshest criticism I've seen directed at Lindsey came from people who are generally critical of him anyway. Several of those comments started with "He's still just the same...." By the same token, most of the people who were more apt to empathize with Lindsey's point of view before seeing the doc still feel that way. Generally speaking.

[dissention]

It didn't change my views. He's still the genius mastermind behind Fleetwood Mac. :D

[AgainLindsey]

He's still the genius mastermind behind Fleetwood Mac.

this documentary definitely confirms that! :) :) :) :)

It's like that you know, always criticize the ones you love?

:confused:

[Johnny Stew]

He's talked a lot over the past 6 or 7 years, about being a better person now, and that fatherhood has allowed him the chance to move away from being "selfish" (his word, not mine)... so I guess being that I was expecting to see more of that, I was kind of surprised to see someone who appeared quite unwilling to compromise except when absolutely forced to.

But, at the same time, he seemed quite loving towards, and kind-hearted with, Stevie, and it's easy to see that they take the bickering and disagreements far better than we do!

As long as you don't focus only on the negatives, or, on the flip-side, don't totally turn a blind eye towards them, then we seem to get a more accurate view of Lindsey as a person, than we have ever had before.
So basically I think it was a good thing to see.

[CarneVaca]

Actually, the documentary made me respect him a little more. I now understand better why certain decisions were made. And I am happy that he pushed his argument as far as he could take it.

I would have done the same.

[wondergirl9847]

When a man asserts himself, he's being pushy and aggresive, but when a woman does it, she's doing a good thing. :confused:

I thought we were supposed to fight for what we want? But yet, people always want us to change (our ideas and our minds). :rolleyes:

I understand compromise and why it can be a good thing, I just don't get the double standard. :shrug:

[bucklind17]

I wasn't very surprised by the way Lindsey seemed in the documentary. I've always gotten that type of impression of him, at least when it comes to the creative process, and it was nice to see him in action, to actually have something to base that impression on. I don't think any less of him, because I get the idea that he's always been that way in the studio, and that's how FM albums get made. Maybe it shouldn't be that way (I found myself asking how John stands it when it comes time to record an album) but that is how it is. It may not be the most ideal, but it produces some pretty good stuff when the day is done.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I thought we were supposed to fight for what we want? But yet, people always want us to change (our ideas and our minds). :rolleyes:

If we didn't fight for what we want, we'd still be a British colony!

So, support Lindsey and be a patriot. Otherwise, well, you know... the terrorists win.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
If we didn't fight for what we want, we'd still be a British colony!

So, support Lindsey and be a patriot. Otherwise, well, you know... the terrorists win.

Have you been drinking :laugh:

Seriously, I think the doc. confirmed the persona of LB - he is an artist and a brilliant one at that. He also likes to cause a little trouble here and there for those who like to play it safe - more power to him. I am just thankful he did not give the "cycles" speech - now THAT would have hurt him :laugh:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Have you been drinking :laugh:

Now, that would be a worthy endeavour at this point.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
If we didn't fight for what we want, we'd still be a British colony!


yeah but on the other hand, you'd be living in the neighbourhood of New Amsterdam.

(i first intended to write: sometimes I wish you still were. But one can push too far on one day-huh?:laugh: )

But I agree. His fighting is a very important part of the creative energy in this band. And he did it quite controlled-so He's not damaged in my opinion. Aux contraire.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
When a man asserts himself, he's being pushy and aggresive, but when a woman does it, she's doing a good thing. :confused: No offense, Christy... but that's actually an ironic statement!

Traditionally, men have always been allowed to be assertive and aggressive... in fact, it's actually encouraged, as it's viewed as reinforcing one's masculinity... but a woman who asserts herself is typically written off as a "difficult, demanding bitch."
Just look at so many famously strong-willed women... Madonna, Cher, Martha Stewart, Bette Davis, Eartha Kitt, Joan Collins, etc... and you'll see how negatively they're often viewed for their assertiveness.

It's a horrible double-standard that is still perpetuated. :(

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
No offense, Christy... but that's actually an ironic statement!

Traditionally, men have always been allowed to be assertive and aggressive... in fact, it's actually encouraged, as it's viewed as reinforcing one's masculinity... but a woman who asserts herself is typically written off as a "difficult, demanding bitch."
Just look at so many famously strong-willed women... Madonna, Cher, Martha Stewart, Bette Davis, Eartha Kitt, Joan Collins, etc... and you'll see how negatively they're often viewed for their assertiveness.

It's a horrible double-standard that is still perpetuated. :(

Actually, it's quite the opposite. :laugh:

In recent years, it's become frowned upon for men to assert themselves because it's a sign of being domineering and too aggresive; that the man is trying to prove his masculinity. On the other hand, when a woman does it these days, it's considered to be a good thing in the sense that she is asserting her independence and strong will, whereas years ago, she would've been considered a bitch. She's not letting the men, who historically had the upper hand when it came to aggression and assertiveness because it was a trait of their masculinity, tell her what to do or make her conform to doing things they way they want them to be done.

Ah, the wonders of Sociology classes. :laugh:

PS: I'm not saying that women still aren't viewed as being "bitches," I'm just saying that it's to a much, much lesser degree than thirty or even twenty years ago.

And Eartha Kitt? Meow. Read my sig. ;)

[wondergirl9847]

That's what I meant. In today's society, it's flip-flopped now.

Weird.

[dissention]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
That's what I meant. In today's society, it's flip-flopped now.

Weird.

I know, I was agreeing with ya. :laugh:

It's totally weird, but a long time coming. Some men just seem to think that their penis will magically enlarge if they show rage and assertiveness at just the right moment.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
. . . Some men just seem to think that their penis will magically enlarge if they show rage and assertiveness at just the right moment.

It doesn't? :(

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by dissention
Actually, it's quite the opposite. :laugh:

In recent years, it's become frowned upon for men to assert themselves because it's a sign of being domineering and too aggresive; that the man is trying to prove his masculinity.

Which explains why a lot of the leading men in today's TV programs are doofuses who fear their wives. Take Ray and Doug (King of Queens). Total doofi.

But Johnny is right that traditionally it was just the opposite.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by dissention
In recent years, it's become frowned upon for men to assert themselves because it's a sign of being domineering and too aggresive; that the man is trying to prove his masculinity. On the other hand, when a woman does it these days, it's considered to be a good thing in the sense that she is asserting her independence and strong will, whereas years ago, she would've been considered a bitch. [...]

PS: I'm not saying that women still aren't viewed as being "bitches," I'm just saying that it's to a much, much lesser degree than thirty or even twenty years ago.


It's defintely better now, but I still feel there is a perception that the woman who is pushy and aggressive is "trying too hard" and worthy of eye-rolls, if not the name "bitch."

[4Buck]

I'm a female and I think men get a bad deal these days....Women beat guys into submission. Everything has to evolve around the woman, as she's gotten to be very self-centered.

By what you read, Madonna AND Nicks could be real barracudas over the years......:eek:

Do you women actually listen to those fat, bespectacled, man-hating (some married!) female professors who are lost in the '60s and '70s with their ideals? They've never reached the top in anything but are trying to teach YOU? Give it up! :)

Guys are great and should be appreciated!

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I'm sitting here thinking that there has been lots of "haterade" (LOL!!) towards Lindsey lately after the doc. Anyone else feel that way? :( I don't mean hate in the literal sense of hating someone, I just mean, people look at him as a whiney (DANG, I hate that word right now along with cheesy) jerk who doesn't know what he's talking about. He's out of the loop and needs to get a life.

Did the doc change people's minds about Lindsey one way or the other?

Well, I don't think he won any new fans with the doc, but I don't think he lost any old ones either. You'd have to be a pretty lame fan to stop liking Lindsey just because he was unbending in the doc!

[Les]

I may be sorry for asking, but 4Buck, do you post anything that isn't a blatant attempt to bait by insulting an individual or group of people?

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
It's defintely better now, but I still feel there is a perception that the woman who is pushy and aggressive is "trying too hard" and worthy of eye-rolls, if not the name "bitch."

Blame it on Melrose...:laugh:

You're totally right, but I was just trying to say that, in general, that isn't the case these days. It is much more acceptable for a woman to be a working girl, to be ambitious, to assert themselves, to not take crap from anyone. They may be called a "bitch" or some other derogatory term, but at least the womans behavior is acceptable and normal in this day and age.

[Cammie]

:wavey: :cool: NO not at all...it showed us what we have heard
about managers,The Mac and their way of recording!
Lindsey surely knew what he was going up against!!!:eek:
That new house better be worth all the aggravation!
He handled his disappointment quite well as shown!!!;)

We loved Lindsey adjusting his "bits and pieces"!:]Sky:laugh:

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by dissention
Some men just seem to think that their penis will magically enlarge if they show rage and assertiveness at just the right moment.

Thanks. I never knew that. So I can get rid off that vac-pump now?:D

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Lux
I haven't been here long enough to know people, so I'm hoping that was meant as a joke? Please tell me it was.

Yes. :laugh: :laugh:

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by Les
I may be sorry for asking, but 4Buck, do you post anything that isn't a blatant attempt to bait by insulting an individual or group of people? :eek:

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Lux
Oh god, thank goodness!

I was a little disturbed by a poster over on Burnish. I understand not everyone thinks the same as me, but I was reminded of Hitler Youth camps.

Yes, it is a rather disturbing mentality that I was satirizing. I will do that sometimes.

:laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by shackin'up
Thanks. I never knew that. So I can get rid off that vac-pump now?:D

:laugh:

[Carolina Girl]

Originally posted by sodascouts
It's defintely better now, but I still feel there is a perception that the woman who is pushy and aggressive is "trying too hard" and worthy of eye-rolls, if not the name "bitch."

I totally agree with this. On TV and in movies, I definitely see men being more submissive and less agressive. But in my real life, men rule the world. I have worked for twenty years, in different industries and in different capacities, and I have never to this day met a man who gives a woman her due credit, financially or otherwise. But I have met many who think an agressive woman is a bitch. My current co-worker (he thinks he's my "boss") actually had the audacity to say that women deserve less pay because they expect to get maternity leave!

[wondergirl9847]

Carolina Girl...some men are just stupid. :laugh:

Some women are too. It goes both ways. :nod:

Stupidity knows no gender.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by 4Buck
I'm a female and I think men get a bad deal these days....Women beat guys into submission. Everything has to evolve around the woman, as she's gotten to be very self-centered.

By what you read, Madonna AND Nicks could be real barracudas over the years......:eek:

Do you women actually listen to those fat, bespectacled, man-hating (some married!) female professors who are lost in the '60s and '70s with their ideals? They've never reached the top in anything but are trying to teach YOU? Give it up! :)

Guys are great and should be appreciated!

Thank you. As a male, I feel very supported by these high-intelligent comments.

[Carolina Girl]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
Carolina Girl...some men are just stupid. :laugh:

Some women are too. It goes both ways. :nod:

Stupidity knows no gender.

True!

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by shackin'up
Thank you. As a male, I feel very supported by these high-intelligent comments.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[4Buck]

>>My pleasure, Shackin' Up!>> :)

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by 4Buck
>>My pleasure, Shackin' Up!>> :)

I'm ecstatically glad you understood.

[Mirage]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
If we didn't fight for what we want, we'd still be a British colony!

So, support Lindsey and be a patriot. Otherwise, well, you know... the terrorists win.

Hello. I am a new member of the board but have been a regular reader for quite a while. I must say that the above remark is one of the most disgraceful that I have come across. I was so incensed that I decided to become a member of the board so that I could voice my sadness at such a thoughtless, spurious comment. If you are wondering, yes I am a Brit, and no I haven't lost my sense of humour. Even if said as a joke, the remark was highly inappropriate and definitely not funny. I am sure that the family and friends of British servicemen/women serving in the Gulf, Afghanistan and other regions around the world would be equally dismayed if they were unfortunate enough to come across the remark.

No matter. I shall not let this spoil my enjoyment of coming onto a terrific message board and reading some great postings. Regards to you all.

Mirage.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Mirage
Hello. I am a new member of the board but have been a regular reader for quite a while. I must say that the above remark is one of the most disgraceful that I have come across. I was so incensed that I decided to become a member of the board so that I could voice my sadness at such a thoughtless, spurious comment. If you are wondering, yes I am a Brit, and no I haven't lost my sense of humour. Even if said as a joke, the remark was highly inappropriate and definitely not funny. I am sure that the family and friends of British servicemen/women serving in the Gulf, Afghanistan and other regions around the world would be equally dismayed if they were unfortunate enough to come across the remark.

No matter. I shall not let this spoil my enjoyment of coming onto a terrific message board and reading some great postings. Regards to you all.

Mirage.

I thought it was funny :shrug: and still do :laugh:

Welcome to the board! :cool:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Lux
Anywho, I know better than to start political discussions on such boards, but surely anyone can see the irony here. This is the Lindsey board remember, not the Stevie one. *raises eyebrow*

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Lux
I meant that in the nicest possible way. Guess I'll have to take your word on that... especially since I just found myself distracted by something shiny. :)

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Lux
. . . but surely anyone can see the irony here. This is the Lindsey board remember, not the Stevie one.

Explain :confused:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Lux
People! I was kidding. It was just an obvious spot to take a (lighthearted) crack at Stevie. You know, how she doesn't like to be controversal these. Please don't attack me, it was a joke. These net boards really do lose the intentions of the poster. Unfortunately the wording of your post had come off as though you were saying that the folks on the Stevie board were incapable of understanding irony ("surely anyone can see the irony here. This is the Lindsey board remember, not the Stevie one"), so I thank you for the explanation, Lux.
It's appreciated. :)

[strandinthewind]

Thanks for clarifying Lux. I see your joke now.

As an aside, Stevie's very recent comments on Madonna and Britany S.' kiss and on Britany S. and other half naked girl singers certainly would be considered controversial. To wit:
__________________________________________________
Here's what Australia's Herald Sun reported September 2003:

Stevie Nicks rates the notorious Madonna-Britney kiss as the most obnoxious television moment ever.

"First of all, Madonna is too old to be kissing someone who is 22," the Fleetwood Mac singer told the Herald Sun. "

And Britney should be smarter than that. Hopefully, she will figure a way out of this hole she has dug for herself." Original rock chick Nicks, 55, said Spears and Christina Aguilera should wear more clothes and try writing decent songs.

"I personally have never been to a strip club, but I turn on MTV and see in every single video what it must be like to be at a strip club," Nicks said.

"I think the mystery is gone, and if you have no mystery, then you aren't even sexy.

"Real sexuality and sensuality is in the music, and all these girls, vis-a-vis, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera and on and on, should go back to writing songs and start over because it won't last and they won't last.

"When they are 55, they won't be around and that's sad because I think a lot of those girls are very talented. But they are signing their own death warrants."
_________________________________________________

and then

"People always ask me, 'What do you think of Britney Spears? What do you think of this group, or that one?' I always say, 'Well, they're great.' But now . . . I think they all went too far. Their jeans got too low, their tops got too see-through. Personally, I think that sexy is keeping yourself mysterious. . . . What Britney should do is go back into the studio and get some great songs, and make a great record. And change her fashion style a little bit. Bring back her mysterious persona again. Otherwise it's like, if you see somebody running down the street naked every single day, you stop looking up."
--Fleetwood Mac vocalist Stevie Nicks [Rolling Stone, 10/31/02]
__________________________________________________

Finally, Stevie has commented on the troops by saying she supports them because they were told to be there (which is diff. than supporting the reason they wqere there) and in fact wrote a letter to them supporting them which can be found here:

http://www.nicksfix.com/letter_to_troops_mar18_2003.htm
__________________________________________________

Conversely, LB rarely makes a public political or any other controversial comment, expcept perhaps the occasional jab at the music industry, of which he is willingly a part.

So - food for thought

BTW - as tone can be hard to determine in the written word, I am speaking in a jovial tone not in an in your face finger snapping way :cool:

[face of glass]

Stevie has the courage to speak up what’s in her mind and very often she speaks straight, or that’s at least my experience. That’s something I appreciate in her. Whereas with Lindsey’s interviews I often find myself laughing at his overall seriousness and his pseudo-intellectual pulls.

I guess SN still views herself as a role model of sorts, someone who is very aware of her public status. Maybe she’s trying to keep up what’s left of the backbone of morality in USA these days. ;)

And as for Lindsey, he’s dead cautious in interviews, probably often even rehearsing his comments beforehand (because he repeats a lot of his points, just like I do :)) but I’m sure he doesn’t view himself as a spokesman of sorts and probably doesn’t even think that his opinion on some hot topic matters that much. He thinks of himself as just an artist anyway.

Also, Stevie often likes to discuss her songs in detail, not all of them but some of them anyway. Lindsey doesn’t do that, his vagueness is probably because he doesn’t want to shatter people’s perceptions of what his songs are about.

As he says at MadnessFades.net on the “Peacekeeper” page:

Anything artistic should have some ambiguity to it, and you know, if there's only one way it can be interpreted, it's probably closing in on propaganda.

Not that Stevie is doing that in any way, she knows what she can discuss and she knows what she can’t. ;)

[teedee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lux
[B]Lindsey barely makes a comment of any kind to a public medium (other than song), let alone controversial. His



I think when they state lindsey doesnt make a comment of any public medium, they meant in an interview , not in his lyrics of a song. meaning in an interview he will throw a dig at the record industry, and make a comment about the industry. lets not turn this into whose songs are more controversial.
and when it comes down to it , every song is accepted or denied due to personal opinion . doesnt mean he or she is better or not as good as the other. Stevie and lindsey definately compliment each other very well, and some seem to pick apart everything, like well he needs her more, or she needs him more, it works who cares.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Lux
I think the point is that they'd be even more dismayed if they were unforunate to be told what they were fighting for.


:nod:

And I have I told you that I admire you for the gall you had to post that banner in your sig on the Burnish board? Kudos to you, doll.

:wavey:

[sodascouts]

Lindsey has made some political comments that show that, while he might not be a Democrat per se because you can't fit anyone into a set a lablels ;), we know he is at least a liberal.

I can't find it on MadnessFades.net, but I'm positive there was an interview where Lindsey says that he believes George W. Bush was a puppet and that if he were elected, abortion might be overturned.

Of course there is also the fact that in 1992, he would talk about how "some" people thought "Wrong" was about George Bush the first, which I think tends to imply that he believes that Bush too was indeed wrong, lol. Perhaps he only talks politics before an election, in the hopes that he can influence fans, but lays off it at other times?

Finally, his comments about Eminem are arguably controversial, although I remember at the time in was very en vogue to praise Eminem. This was after the Elton John cuddle.

Les - BTW - you might want to add a search engine for your site. I get confused easily and I think it probably takes me twice as long as others to find stuff! lol There are free ones at places like freefind.com - just a thought. :)

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Lindsey has made some political comments that show that, while he might not be a Democrat per se because you can't fit anyone into a set a lablels ;), we know he is at least a liberal.

He gave the ACLU "Peacekeeper" to use on a compilation CD.

What does that tell you?

:laugh:

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by dissention
He gave the ACLU "Peacekeeper" to use on a compilation CD.

What does that tell you?

:laugh:

Why, I would have to say it tells me that I am absolutely correct once again! :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Why, I would have to say it tells me that I am absolutely correct once again! :laugh:

:nod: :nod: :nod:

:wavey:

PS: That's why I don't believe the BS that Lindsey spouts about "Peacekeeper" not being political. ;)

[Les]

I think Lindsey can be quite political but not in an "align myself with a party and campaign" sort of way. He's more of a social commentator in the way that he looks at how a particular trend in society is affecting everyone involved in it. His SYW songs are most easily identifiable as that because they are the most direct. But I think he's been doing that for quite a while. A lot of his songs, to me, are about the individual's struggle to define and hold to their ideals and boundaries in a world in which they don't quite feel they belong.

It's not controversial. But I don't think one needs to be "controversial" (which requires some definition since I think we all would have pretty different views of what controversial is) in order to speak your mind. "Controversy" gets you in the papers. It doesn't necessarily speak to the truth or strength of your argument.

[Les]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Les - BTW - you might want to add a search engine for your site. I get confused easily and I think it probably takes me twice as long as others to find stuff! lol There are free ones at places like freefind.com - just a thought. :)

Thanks, yeah, I've been thinking about looking into something like that.

[Cammie]

:wavey: My boyfriend agrees with me on this one and
he is jealous of my LB Adulation!!! He thinks they
told Linz what he needed to hear as the producer
then/changed"things"after he got into the work!!!

This is not me speaking here...HE felt for the Guy!:nod:

Les, Keep up the Good Work!!! :eek:Madnessfades is:D!!!
Your side-bar comments are helpful to find stuff!;) Sky:)

[dissention]

Originally posted by Lux
Danke Schon! I knew I'd get in trouble so I only kept it for a day or two. I just had to. I think it's one major aspect of current issues that conveniently gets left out of the press and by doing so glosses over the issue. People need to see, well maybe not see, but be aware of such realities and mainstream media certainly doesn't allow for that.

Oh, they allow for it. But only when it's the Hussein lads. ;)

[Janet]

Damnit! I think the original question was that if the doc. that aired on VH1 made me hate Lindsey more...

That was the question right? These political turns cannot be escaped! I wanted to talk about Lindsey...
is that ok?

Anyway, I totally liked him more.

That's about it... back to the interesting conversation now..

[Janet]

I'll "adjust" his crotch anytime. I could be the official crotch adjuster of the new tour! Jesus, I just found my new calling in life! Search is over!!!

[dissention]

Originally posted by Lux
(insert sarcastic tone here) You don't mean to imply that there are double standards do you?:eek:

:eek: Never!

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Janet
I'll "adjust" his crotch anytime. I could be the official crotch adjuster of the new tour! Jesus, I just found my new calling in life! Search is over!!!

:eek: :eek:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I am afraid the competition will be stiff :cool:

[EveryHour]

I didn't form or change any opinions of him based on The Doc. I can't say I was watching it on order to do so (same of any band members). I don't think it's really fair to develop an opinion on someone entirely on 75 minutes of their life anyway...it's not like you KNOW them because of that. I guess I don't come from a critical place in watching Fleetwood Mac work together...I mean, they work the way they work and we got to see a snippet of it. I'm more interested in simply observing than forming an opinion. I also didn't understand all of the commentary about his car. It's not like he had a pimped out Escalade with spinning rims or a $300,000 Ferrari. He had a Mercedes sedan for goodness sake. Seems like just your basic, quality car for someone with his kind of money. I mean, that seems like "the baseline" when you are a millionaire. If you could afford that kind of quality and safety (with, granted, a bit of luxury thrown in), I don't think you'd say, "Nah...I think I'll go with the Geo Metro".:cool:

[EveryHour]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
:eek: :eek:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I am afraid the competition will be stiff :cool:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[dissention]

Originally posted by EveryHour
If you could afford that kind of quality and safety (with, granted, a bit of luxury thrown in), I don't think you'd say, "Nah...I think I'll go with the Geo Metro".:cool:

I certainly would say that. :nod: Even if I had millions of dollars, I'd still drive a Beetle. I'm petrified of even driving sedans. The bigger the car, the more scared I become on the road. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by dissention
I certainly would say that. :nod: Even if I had millions of dollars, I'd still drive a Beetle. I'm petrified of even driving sedans. The bigger the car, the more scared I become on the road. :laugh:

A very good friend of mine is more loaded than any of us combined and then cubed (:cool: )drives a mini. That is fabu IMO :laugh:

I do not fault LB for having a Benz or any of the other stuff his money can buy him. I do not fault him for wanting to be an artist first, etc. I just cry foul ( :wavey: Dissention) when he acts sort of like money is beneath him, the art comes first, etc., and then he agrees to do a record with an historically commercial band and then chooses a highly commercial label that, inm his own words, gave the largest advance :shrug:

As I have said before all of this is irrelevant to me because I love LB and his music and, I'll go ahead and say it, what he does for La Nicks and her brilliantly poetic but somewhat scattered nincompoopery ( :laugh: ) a la Gypsy.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
A very good friend of mine is more loaded than any of us combined and then cubed (:cool: )drives a mini. That is fabu IMO :laugh:

I do not fault LB for having a Benz or any of the other stuff his money can buy him. I do not fault him for wanting to be an artist first, etc. I just cry foul ( :wavey: Dissention) when he acts sort of like money is beneath him, the art comes first, etc., and then he agrees to do a record with an historically commercial band and then chooses a highly commercial label that, inm his own words, gave the largest advance :shrug:

As I have said before all of this is irrelevant to me because I love LB and his music and, I'll go ahead and say it, what he does for La Nicks and her brilliantly poetic but somewhat scattered nincompoopery ( :laugh: ) a la Gypsy.

Totally agreed. His tortured artist act is as old as Stevie's original Stand Back cape. It's full of holes and isn't worth using anymore because it's just falling apart. Pretty soon his ass will be exposed (even though Lux would love that). :laugh:

[EveryHour]

Originally posted by dissention
I certainly would say that. :nod: Even if I had millions of dollars, I'd still drive a Beetle. I'm petrified of even driving sedans. The bigger the car, the more scared I become on the road. :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Actually, one feels quite safe in a giant car. I used to have a (chocolate brown, mind you) '77 Thunderbird. The hood on that thing was made of steel and literally the size of a queen matress. If you were driving it and got in a head-on, the accident would be reported and cleaned up before you even got there!:laugh:

[EveryHour]

Originally posted by Lux
Lindsey is a walking contradiction. But driving a Mercedes is not what I would consider a factor in that contradiction. In fact it's a low end wealthy car isn't it?

The point I was trying to make...just more to the point (which I like and just can't seem to do very well).:)

[EveryHour]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
(A) I just cry foul when he acts sort of like money is beneath him, the art comes first, etc., and then he agrees to do a record with an historically commercial band and then chooses a highly commercial label that, inm his own words, gave the largest advance :shrug:


(B)As I have said before all of this is irrelevant to me because I love LB and his music

(A)These are definitely points that appear to make him difficult to work with, just like we saw the aspects of other band members that make them difficult to work with. The bottom line is that they choose to work together, and that I don't see some fan's deep emotional investments in these issues when they do not need to be concerned with what it's like to WORK with Lindsey (or the others).

Which leads me to your next point (B), strandinthewind,......


:nod: :nod: :nod:

[Mari]

just want to say that despites some cynical jokes/comments I made here and there, I don't think he's such an awful person at all. The doc actually made him a bit more "human" ;) Not perfect, but who is!:eek:

Oh yeah, and he looks hot in a hammock:D

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Mirage
Hello. I am a new member of the board but have been a regular reader for quite a while. I must say that the above remark is one of the most disgraceful that I have come across. I was so incensed that I decided to become a member of the board so that I could voice my sadness at such a thoughtless, spurious comment. If you are wondering, yes I am a Brit, and no I haven't lost my sense of humour. Even if said as a joke, the remark was highly inappropriate and definitely not funny. I am sure that the family and friends of British servicemen/women serving in the Gulf, Afghanistan and other regions around the world would be equally dismayed if they were unfortunate enough to come across the remark.

No matter. I shall not let this spoil my enjoyment of coming onto a terrific message board and reading some great postings. Regards to you all.

Mirage.

Hmmm... I guess I missed this earlier. I needed something to wake me up.

Yeah, welcome to the board.

All I can say about your attitude here is, the terrorists win. When you can't take a joke, the terrorists win.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Of course there is also the fact that in 1992, he would talk about how "some" people thought "Wrong" was about George Bush the first, which I think tends to imply that he believes that Bush too was indeed wrong, lol. Perhaps he only talks politics before an election, in the hopes that he can influence fans, but lays off it at other times?

Whaaatt!!?? The overanalysis has gone overboard here. Because someone asks him if "Wrong" is about Bush Sr., that means Lindsey thinks Bush Sr. is wrong? That's some pretty warped logic there, Nancy.

As for his trying to influence fans before an election, that's pretty absurd.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by dissention
I certainly would say that. :nod: Even if I had millions of dollars, I'd still drive a Beetle

Hey, you and Mick Fleetwood!

In a way, I wish I'd kept mine.

[4Buck]

Buckingham's President Bush opinions are in bold:

Buckingham Talks Mac

Lindsey Buckingham discusses his next project

January 20, 2001

New York, NY -- With their surprise appearance at President Clinton's farewell party on January 6th, Fleetwood Mac started a wave of rumours about the band's future. Following their White House performance -- which marked their first concert together in three years -- the band members began talking about a possible reunion. But at least one member of the band's most famous line-up, Christine McVie, has already decided to go her own way. The singer/pianist balked at the opportunity to play for the President and seems to have no interest in performing with the band again. So who's on board at the moment, and exactly how much faith can Fleetwood fans have in the possibility in a new album and/or tour?

Ask Lindsey Buckingham, and he doesn't sound entirely sure himself. But as we found out when we caught up with him after the Clinton send-off, the singer/guitarist is convinced his options are vast. It's just a matter of deciding whether to throw his latest batch of songs into the pot for a new Fleetwood Mac project or put them all towards a new solo album, something he hasn't done since issuing 1992's Out of the Cradle. A new Buckingham/Nicks album is also a possibility. Anything goes, and for the moment, it seems, we'll all just have to wait for him to make up his mind.

So did you have plenty of prep time for the Clinton farewell show?

No, anything but. We got a call maybe two weeks before the event and I talked to Stevie. I said, "Jeez, do you think we can pull this off? We need to rehearse, right?" They wanted an hour, so we figured we could rehearse for three days and put together just the workhorses for the set, which we did. Christine's lack of presence wasn't really felt too much. We have some singers who filled in those parts and it went very smoothly. We were involved in a small way in ushering in his administration, so it was nice to kind of complete that cycle.

Is playing before the President tougher than other gigs?

It didn't make me too nervous. I think it did make Stevie a little more nervous because she doesn't have a guitar to hide behind. I can kind of jump around and make an idiot of myself and that gets me a certain ways down the line of loosening up.

Did he have any favorite songs?

I didn't ask him and we only talked very briefly afterwards before he was whisked off to something else. But I was really surprised, there was a song called "So Afraid," which was never a single, it's always been part of the stage show, because it has a long drawn-out guitar solo at the end, and he was sitting there singing all the words to that.

There's this sense in the entertainment industry that the good days are numbered. Does it feel like the end of an era to you?

Looking at what George W. seems to be about, it's questionable what he will actually be able to get done, but what he wants to get done is a little scary. And just as a person, at least from my perspective, obviously the media does pigeonhole you, it's not necessarily fair to judge anyone on how they come across on the tube, but he's kind of scary. He seems to be totally scripted and a little blank behind the script, more than a little blank behind the script and can't really put a sentence together, and he just doesn't seem qualified. Not that he doesn't have qualified people behind him, but that has implications of its own. Hopefully at the worst, he'll be around for awhile and we'll just get over that cycle. He won't make abortion illegal or anything that bad, but I guess he could try. Most stuff he can't push through, and looking at it in a more amusing light, it might be an entertaining four years, in the Gerry Ford sense . . . times ten I guess.

So what is the status of Fleetwood Mac?

You know it's interesting, I made a joke at the show about us having worked through our own partisan politics. And I really think there is a pretty potent future for the band. In a way, Christine has really checked herself out of the situation. She sold her house in L.A. and is just residing in England. God knows what she's doing. But it kind of frees the Fleetwood Mac situation to be looked at in a fresh light and in some ways in the dynamic that Stevie and I had going before we joined the band. I think everyone's pretty up for the possibility of that and of approaching a second phase of a group much differently than just the whole epidemic of bands that were getting back together and touring and making the quick buck and then that's it. I think that would be very intriguing to try and do that. I have a whole mess of material that I've been calling a solo album. And it may still be. The other option would be to spend the next eight months or so working on material with Stevie and doing some sort of epic FM album. So I don't know. There are some options out there, and we're still looking at them. But the music I have right now, is the best that I've ever done on my own, or with Fleetwood Mac, tapping into some new areas. It becomes a little less important what you call it, the older you get. I can't tell you whether that will come out as a solo album or not. We have some options and they're all pretty good.

Is there a timeframe for the material to be produced?

I have to decide this week whether this is a solo album or not. And if you talk to the critics they'll say, put it out, what are you doing, why wouldn't you want to put it out? And if you talk to people at the record company, it depends on what your priorities are, so it's kind of scary. Not that I put solo albums out there to fail, they're for the people who want to hear that sort of thing. But the climate out there now is, God love people like Eminem, who are really doing something great. But the pop side of things, the Britney Spears sound and all of that, even though it's well-crafted, it's just a tough climate to try and think that you could really get through to a lot of people as a solo artist at age fifty. In that sense the Fleetwood Mac idea enables you to get through to a lot more people so I have to just weigh just how important or unimportant this is yet.

Is that "week" a stringent deadline?

Well it's not a stringent deadline, it's just that I've been working on my own running order and it's just something I'm so proud of. And again the people who appreciate the artistic side of things, say, "Well why would you want to put it together with a bunch of Stevie songs, it sounds like a Frankenstein project or something at that point." But then the challenge would be to make it not that. It's getting down to the wire though. You have any advice?

Could there be a Buckingham/Nicks reunion?

Well that's something else we've talked about . . . very briefly I must say. But it's interesting because Stevie and I have, that's kinda what I meant by working through partisan politics. After all of this time, we've managed to get to a point where we're comfortable. There's nothing we can't talk about. We've all been down our own particular roads that have gotten us to that point and so it's nice after all this time for both of us to have a good portion of the child remaining within us. I talked to Don Henley one time about the Eagles, and it seemed like there was so little love or idealism left in that group of people and perhaps that's more the norm for people our age. But we seem to be slightly more arrested and I think there's some potential for some good stuff because of that.

For Buckingham/Nicks that would be a pretty lengthy hiatus from which to return.

Oh yeah, but still, all of that stuff is a possibility. If I have to guess I'd say this is going to come out as a solo album. But it is a little more daunting than it was a few years ago. The older you get hopefully you work and getting less and less selfish. And that's one of the things that drives people, in order to do things that are outside the mainstream, you have to have a large ego and that you have something to offer. It's sort of a Catch 22 that part of being mature, part of growing up is letting go of certain rashness. So I don't know where that falls now.

So can we expect some sort of formal announcement when you decide?

I don't know.

Like the Bat sign.

Yeah, something like that. [Laughs].

Written by ANDREW DANSBY for RollingStone.com News

[Mari]

Originally posted by 4Buck

Is playing before the President tougher than other gigs?

It didn't make me too nervous. I think it did make Stevie a little more nervous because she doesn't have a guitar to hide behind. I can kind of jump around and make an idiot of myself and that gets me a certain ways down the line of loosening up.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
There's another topic on this board where I should add this:D

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Whaaatt!!?? The overanalysis has gone overboard here. Because someone asks him if "Wrong" is about Bush Sr., that means Lindsey thinks Bush Sr. is wrong? That's some pretty warped logic there, Nancy.

I don't really see what you're so aghast about. Do you think he's a Republican, and that I'm misrepresenting his views? :laugh:

As for his trying to influence fans before an election, that's pretty absurd.

Yes, certainly no celebrity would ever try to do such a thing. What was I thinking?

[Les]

He actually made these comments about a month after the 2000 election was decided, not before. Not particularly good timing if he was trying to influence anyone. ;)

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Les
He actually made these comments about a month after the 2000 election was decided, not before. Not particularly good timing if he was trying to influence anyone. ;)

Yikes, Lindsey really needs to get his act together! ;)

[4Buck]

....Like many magazine articles, Rolling Stone interviews are done months in advance of the date shown..... Buckingham's obviously was done before the election.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I don't really see what you're so aghast about. Do you think he's a Republican, and that I'm misrepresenting his views? :laugh:

No, I don't think he's a Republican. He's obvioulsy too smart. ;) :laugh:

But you didn't address my question, did you? You're using some pretty warped logic by saying he thought George Bush Sr. was "wrong" because someone theorized that "Wrong" was about George Sr. If you don't see that, I'm probably wasting my time.

Yes, certainly no celebrity would ever try to do such a thing. What was I thinking?

I can only hope that thoughtful celebrities with something to say continue to try to influence fans. With the level of apathy we've reached in this country, as the government dismantles our democracy (shut up, Jason! :laugh: ) piece by piece, it's important that people who are in a position of influencing opinion use that power. John Lennon remains one of my idols because he was the first rock celebrity to really use his fame to influence opinion and actually make an impact (though not always positive).

Be that as it may, your suggestion that Lindsey was using some kind of veiled approach to influence an election was patently absurd. Maybe you were kidding. But if you weren't, you might want to take a step back and reevaluate your opinion on this.

[strandinthewind]

REPUBLIC :laugh:

Seriously, I think LB gave his usual go around the bock to get next door style of explanation in that quote. Bless his heart :cool:

[Les]

....Like many magazine articles, Rolling Stone interviews are done months in advance of the date shown..... Buckingham's obviously was done before the election.

He discusses the performance the band did at the White House for Clinton's farewell, which was on January 6, 2001 after the election was decided.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
But you didn't address my question, did you? You're using some pretty warped logic by saying he thought George Bush Sr. was "wrong" because someone theorized that "Wrong" was about George Sr. If you don't see that, I'm probably wasting my time.

I saw the interview (bought the VHS, actually) and that's the impression I got. Believe me, I wasn't looking for it, but when I saw the look on his face as he gleefully volunteered the information that someone had told him they thought it was Bush, I knew. Turns out I was right (of course! lol). I will grant that it might lose something in the written translation.

But farbeit from me to waste your time! I know lately most of it has been dedicated to certain other posters, and I'd hate to distract you from that.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I saw the interview (bought the VHS, actually) and that's the impression I got. Believe me, I wasn't looking for it, but when I saw the look on his face as he gleefully volunteered the information that someone had told him they thought it was Bush, I knew. Turns out I was right (of course! lol). I will grant that it might lose something in the written translation.

But farbeit from me to waste your time! I know lately most of it has been dedicated to certain other posters, and I'd hate to distract you from that.

Nancy, if you're trying to say Lindsey wrote "Wrong" about Bush Sr., why not just say it? You seem to be talking around it and drawing odd conclusions based on feeble evidence. To me it seems pretty clear he wrote it about Mick, and to some extent, about himself.

[CarneVaca]

We interrupt our regularly scheduled discussion for this announcement:

Gerald, make room in your IM inbox, will you?

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Nancy, if you're trying to say Lindsey wrote "Wrong" about Bush Sr., why not just say it? You seem to be talking around it and drawing odd conclusions based on feeble evidence. To me it seems pretty clear he wrote it about Mick, and to some extent, about himself.

Actually, no, I don't believe he wrote it about Bush at all. It's Mick alright - could it be more obvious? Piggy in the Middle? Piggy on the Cover? Yet when asked who it was about, Lindsey is mum about Mick. Instead, he gives the "decide for yourself" speech - then "someone told me he thought it was about George Bush." Why bring George in at all?

It also puzzles me that he was reluctant to say it was about Mick to interviewers when he'd left so many blatant clues - for instance, using Mick's chapter names as slams! lol

I think perhaps you are taking this a bit more seriously than I had initially intended it. I am not saying Lindsey has a political agenda first and foremost on his mind. Remember the original context of my statement was that I believed he was a liberal, and this interview was just one indication I listed of that. I contend that someone sympathetic to Bush (conservative) would have hesistated to mention that another person thought "Wrong" was about him. That's just human nature - you want to associate "your guy" with positives. Can you picture Lidnsey saying, "You know, somebody told me they thought that song was about Clinton! Har har!"

I think my assumption was quite logical, based on the above. You don't. So be it. I don't think it's because I'm lacking in the ability to reason, however, or only seeing what I want to see - far from it!

[CarneVaca]

Lindsey said in Behind the Music that the song is about Mick. That's why I don't think there's any ambivalence.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Lindsey said in Behind the Music that the song is about Mick. That's why I don't think there's any ambivalence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the first time he ever said that. He was asked about it mutliple times in 1992 and did not. Of course now there is no ambivalence.

Was it just me, or did Mick seem thrilled to be called a rockcock? Get a clue, Mick. This song was not a tribute to your sexual prowess.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the first time he ever said that. He was asked about it mutliple times in 1992 and did not. Of course now there is no ambivalence.

I honestly don't know. I always knew the song was about Mick somehow.

Was it just me, or did Mick seem thrilled to be called a rockcock? Get a clue, Mick. This song was not a tribute to your sexual prowess.

Yes he did, and it was pretty lame.

[strandinthewind]

Perhaps that is why MF (no pun intended) sees the need to get half naked in the last two docs. :rolleyes:

[CarneVaca]

Does anyone have the chords to "Wrong?"

[Johnny Stew]

I have the wrong chords.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I have the wrong chords.

Those won't help me, Johnny. :D

[Les]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that was the first time he ever said that. He was asked about it mutliple times in 1992 and did not.

He was coy about it in some of the 1992 interviews, but he did eventually admit to it back then. He even said back then that Mick knew it was about him, and that they'd talked about it, lol, so I don't really quite know what to make of Mick's response about the song in Lindsey's BTM as if the song and its inspiration were news to him. It all makes me laugh though.

[Is Wrong about Mick and his tell-all biography?] I used to dodge that question when it first came out [laughs]...but I've seen Mick since then. He's listened to it and knows what it's about. There was a little bad blood when Mick's book came out, because there were a lot of things in it that were either very hard slants to me, on what my contributions had been, and there were a couple of things in there that were just downright not true. Everyone in the band was disappointed that he put out something trashy that didn't really need to be put out - except maybe for the money. And this was just my way of...just kind of a gentle tongue-in-cheek slap on the hand [laughs].
Austin, TX radio interview, Spring 1993

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Les
He was coy about it in some of the 1992 interviews, but he did eventually admit to it back then. He even said back then that Mick knew it was about him, and that they'd talked about it, lol, so I don't really quite know what to make of Mick's response about the song in Lindsey's BTM as if the song and its inspiration were news to him. It all makes me laugh though.


Thanks, Les. I guess I just got it [altogether now] WRONG!

[rcb77]

I've been lurking on the Ledge for the past month or so, catching up on things in Macland and waiting for a subject that got me going, and this is it... The doc just reinforced my belief that Lindsey is the best, and the catalyst for everything that this band does. Without his commitment, the album and tour don't happen. I thought the idea of a double album was great, if a bit idealistic and over-zealous, but hey, he's got a lot of stuff he wants to get out there (but I don't think he should be just throwing out stuff piecemeal onto the net -- I still prefer albums).
One quick story -- I watched the doc with my fiancee, who is somewhat knowledgable about the Mac. After Stevie said something totally off the wall for about the tenth time in the doc, she turned to me and said, "How has Lindsey put up with that for 30 years?" I love Stevie, but one has to wonder sometimes.... :laugh:

[wondergirl9847]

Good to know that you came out of lurkdom to respond to my thread! :)

You might wanna add your opinion to Carne's thread regarding LB putting his music on the net.

[Cammie]

:] :cool: Glad your responding with commen sense here Ryan!!! :]
You said what we tried to! :nod: Welcome Comments! :xoxo:Sky ;)

[Mari]

I just watched the doc on a tape Shackin'Up was so kind to send me :)
Got quite a different impression of it than I first had from watching all the short clips on Burnish.net etall.
Thumbs up for Lindsey, he really did his best to make SYW a great artistic/creative work. But Stevie and her 'commercial gods' ... urgh. She did contribute some wonderful songs, though.

[strandinthewind]

I just watched the doc on a tape Shackin'Up was so kind to send me :)
Got quite a different impression of it than I first had from watching all the short clips on Burnish.net etall.
Thumbs up for Lindsey, he really did his best to make SYW a great artistic/creative work. But Stevie and her 'commercial gods' ... urgh. She did contribute some wonderful songs, though.


Give me a break - I think you post these to incite people. If you think for one minute LB did not want a commercial record I suggest you watch the doc. again. In the end, LB specically says he has to consider the commercial aspects to pay for his new house (IN BEL AIR) and for his new family. I wonder how many millions that takes? Moreover, do you think LB is going to get these millions from the non-commercial gods? To the contrary, LB wanted a successful record which by definition means it must be commercial :shrug:

NOTE: Please do not take this as a slam on LB. It is not. I am posting this because I am sick and tired of people slammig Stevie for being practicle and for having the sand to say exactly what LB thinks and does in the end :rolleyes:

[Mari]

no, I did not post it to incite people. Crap. Thank you very much.
This is just my view. I think this discussion has gone on loooooooong enough, so I 'll settle for, My View vs Your View, let's agree to disagree??

[strandinthewind]

no, I did not post it to incite people. Crap. Thank you very much.
This is just my view. I think this discussion has gone on loooooooong enough, so I 'll settle for, My View vs Your View, let's agree to disagree??

You view is conpletely unsupported by the facts. If I am wrong, please cite facts to support it.

[Mari]

Like I already said, this discussion has gone on looooong enough. If you really want to, go ahead and read plenty of other pages full of comments about the documentary, and you'll find what you're looking for.
But what I was angry about and what you chose not to react on, is that ridiculous attack I only want to "incite" people or only want to slam on Stevie. Why can't you respect my opinion simply for what it is, an Opinion!
What now, is this the "a true fan is never critical" thing? Give me a break.

[strandinthewind]

Like I already said, this discussion has gone on looooong enough. If you really want to, go ahead and read plenty of other pages full of comments about the documentary, and you'll find what you're looking for.
But what I was angry about and what you chose not to react on, is that ridiculous attack I only want to "incite" people or only want to slam on Stevie. Why can't you respect my opinion simply for what it is, an Opinion!
What now, is this the "a true fan is never critical" thing? Give me a break.

Once you said you did not post to incite, I accepted that as true. That is why I did not comment on it. I believe you :cool:

As for your view, I was merely pointing out that LB and SN are both beholden to commercial viability because they both choose to record in the manner they do (renting a mansion in Bel Air, signing with WB because of, inter alia, the larger advance, etc.) and want to support, by their own words, the expensive lifestyles they live. Clearly, the facts support that :shrug: Yet, it seems people just want to slam Stevie for it by posting comments like when you commented "Thumbs up for Lindsey, he really did his best to make SYW a great artistic/creative work. But Stevie and her 'commercial gods' ... urgh. She did contribute some wonderful songs, though." To me that says Stevie is all about the money and LB is not - LB has too much integrity for that and Stevie does not. That is just wrong for the reasons I and others posted earlier in this thread and in other threads :shrug: But, if my literal interpretation of what you said is wrong and you did not mean that - I apologize with my hat in my hand. :cool:

[shackin'up]

Well, it's fought over a lot on this board, but the fact lindsey is constantly talking about " doing something extraordinary ", that he wants to push boundries and being not save, and more commercial, realistic argument in this doc. are pronounced by Stevie and Mick are just facts. If Stevie just stated something more about the artwork itself and how she relates to the unsave lindseystuff, AND about her own "pushing boundries-songs" like Illume and Smile at you that would have been smart in terms of presenting an image of yourself. As well as lindsey could have commented more on what he sees as commercially interesting with this batch of songs. In this documentary we just get the stereotypes of each member reaffirmed. And they were part of that. So if we respond in the same preoccupied way, we should not blame eachother. We should blame the company that Fleetwood Mac is. Give us some insight in how they relate to eachothers work, not to eachothers idea of what's smart in terms of success. I do like the doc, though, because there's a lot to see in the nonverbal info: the songs they sing in the studio, on the couch, the expression in their faces during the argument about TD, Stevie and her fish, Lindsey with his great face stating "why should it be any different now, ha!" and Johns reaction, I could go on and on....

gerald

[Mari]

Once you said you did not post to incite, I accepted that as true. That is why I did not comment on it. I believe you :cool:

Ok, apologies accepted

As for your view, I was merely pointing out that LB and SN are both beholden to commercial viability because they both choose to record in the manner they do (renting a mansion in Bel Air, signing with WB because of, inter alia, the larger advance, etc.) and want to support, by their own words, the expensive lifestyles they live. Clearly, the facts support that :shrug: Yet, it seems people just want to slam Stevie for it by posting comments like when you commented "Thumbs up for Lindsey, he really did his best to make SYW a great artistic/creative work. But Stevie and her 'commercial gods' ... urgh. She did contribute some wonderful songs, though." To me that says Stevie is all about the money and LB is not - LB has too much integrity for that and Stevie does not. That is just wrong for the reasons I and others posted earlier in this thread and in other threads :shrug: But, if my literal interpretation of what you said is wrong and you did not mean that - I apologize with my hat in my hand. :cool:

I'm surprised how much you can read in two short sentences. :rolleyes:
Let me tell you what I meant: I actually winced when she said that. Perhaps Shackin' is right, and she is portrayed in a stereotypical way, but the first thing I felt when I heard her say that, was "eww!". The way I saw it, LB was very enthousiastic about the double-album idea for a long time. Perhaps it wasn't a very realistic idea, but he believed in it, or at least, I believed he believed ;). So maybe Stevie was right in the end, that the whole money-thing does matter, but to me it comes across pretty materialistic when she says those words.
yeah, you're right, after watching this documentary in whole for the first time last night, I did get the feeling Stevie was all about the money and Lindsey was not. I've a right to say that if that's what I think :p

Which brings me back to my question, what's wrong with that!

Why use a word like "slamming"?

[strandinthewind]

But, then when LB flat out says he had to be commercial because he has a family to consider, he is building a new house in Bel Air (one of the most exclusive places in the world mind you), etc., did you react like you did to Stevie saying essentially the same thing? From what I have read here and on other threads, most LB fans did not. They saw it as LB giving in to the machinery and the evil and commercial Stevie and FM :laugh: Certainly that is their right to see LB in that light. But, to me it smacks of a bad double standard that I see often applied. I mean the doc showed Stevie fighting to preserve what she took for the artistic intergrity of her song Thrown Down and many laughed at her and essentially called her a flaky idiot who cannot speak the King's English :shrug: Yet, when LB sticks up for his artistic integrity it is sacrosanct and nobody better ever comment on it because LB is an artist and Stevie is merely a silly and money grubbing woman who needs LB to take care of her (note this is hyperbole for humor and to add levity :cool: )

Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that does not mean other people can't comment on it and then point out why they think it is wrong :shrug:

Finally, I love LB and his work. I think there is no one like him. But, clearly, he wants and needs to sell records just like everybody else and I do not fault him for that as others readily fault Stevie :shrug:

[Mari]

Yes, the way you say things does matter.
The words you choose, that does matter.

Isn't it weird?! ;)

That goes for the discussion about the doc as well as what you're calling me.
Of course I don't mind if you disagree with me, but I do mind being called things I'm not.
I didn't 'slam' nor 'readily fault'. I simply stated what my first reaction was when seeing that documentary.

[strandinthewind]

Yes, the way you say things does matter.
The words you choose, that does matter.

Isn't it weird?! ;)

That goes for the discussion about the doc as well as what you're calling me.
Of course I don't mind if you disagree with me, but I do mind being called things I'm not.
I didn't 'slam' nor 'readily fault'. I simply stated what my first reaction was when seeing that documentary.

In an attempt to explain why I thought as I did when I read your comment "Thumbs up for Lindsey, he really did his best to make SYW a great artistic/creative work. But Stevie and her 'commercial gods' ... urgh," I specifically said "From what I have read here and on other threads, most LB fans did not. They saw . . ." Therefore, by using the word "they" and the phrase "most LB fans," I thought I was clearly indicating I was referring to people in general not specifically you. I was speaking in general and trying to explain why I read your comments as a slam on Stevie rather the just the initial reaction you stated is all that phrase meant :cool:

BTW - you did not respond to my question - "But, then when LB flat out says he had to be commercial because he has a family to consider, he is building a new house in Bel Air (one of the most exclusive places in the world mind you), etc., did you react like you did to Stevie saying essentially the same thing?"

[Mari]

Ooh you're strict! :D :p
Ok then, you're not calling me a Stevie slammer;) (is that a word?)

"But, then when LB flat out says he had to be commercial because he has a family to consider, he is building a new house in Bel Air (one of the most exclusive places in the world mind you), etc., did you react like you did to Stevie saying essentially the same thing?"

No, I didn't wince at that. I thought, what a shame he'd caved in. I also thought Mick was essentially right with his comment that Lindsey cán say things like that because he doesn't live in a single bedroom apartment etc..
the difference is, to me LB does come across as sincere but naieve.
Stevie comes across like.. the balance has just tipped over to the wrong side. Yes, she cares for the music, but in my impression she cares a little too much about the commercial side of it.

my point, this is not black-white, not JUST in it for the money or JUST doing the artiste-thing.

Grmbl. I did not want to copy an entire discussion that has already been! Feeling tricked into something :rolleyes:
I just did not like that accusation. Fine, that's explained. Why not leave it at that?

[strandinthewind]

Ooh you're strict! :D :p
Ok then, you're not calling me a Stevie slammer;) (is that a word?)

"But, then when LB flat out says he had to be commercial because he has a family to consider, he is building a new house in Bel Air (one of the most exclusive places in the world mind you), etc., did you react like you did to Stevie saying essentially the same thing?"

No, I didn't wince at that. I thought, what a shame he'd caved in. I also thought Mick was essentially right with his comment that Lindsey cán say things like that because he doesn't live in a single bedroom apartment etc..
the difference is, to me LB does come across as sincere but naieve.
Stevie comes across like.. the balance has just tipped over to the wrong side. Yes, she cares for the music, but in my impression she cares a little too much about the commercial side of it.

my point, this is not black-white, not JUST in it for the money or JUST doing the artiste-thing.

Grmbl. I did not want to copy an entire discussion that has already been! Feeling tricked into something :rolleyes:
I just did not like that accusation. Fine, that's explained. Why not leave it at that?

touche' my friend touche'

[Mari]

*shakes hands* :cool:

[strandinthewind]

*shakes hands* :cool:
and hugs :woohoo:

[Mari]

uhm...
*ah, Americans...*
Ok then :D

[4Buck]

Ooh you're strict! :D :p
Ok then, you're not calling me a Stevie slammer;) (is that a word?)

"But, then when LB flat out says he had to be commercial

Buckingham didn't say that. I watched the doc again. Besides, his gems RED ROVER, MURROW TURNING OVER IN HIS GRAVE, WHAT'S THE WORLD COMING TO, MIRANDA... even SAY GOODBYE are hardly commercial. He could have chosen other unreleased GIFT OF SCREWS tracks if he wanted the album to appeal to the mainstream. :)

[Mari]

:rolleyes: let's not get started on that again... *sigh*

[Street Angel]

What's The World Coming To is not commercial? Good joke! :thumbsup:

[shackin'up]

What's The World Coming To is not commercial? Good joke! :thumbsup:

:lol: yes,she's so funny!

[Mari]

:D :D yes it's very experimental, unusual, unique and unlike anything I've ever heard the mac play before :p :laugh:

[Johnny Stew]

When discussing Stevie's "praying to the commercial gods" comment, it absolutely has to be taken in context.

The band was playing their music for record company executives, whom they were trying to persuade to give them a contract to release this music.
Record execs see dollar signs, and want to know that their investment will bear fruit.
So Stevie was pointing out what they wanted to hear... that there were some commercial songs there, that they could use to sell albums.

Not to mention the fact that the "praying to the commercial gods" reference was made in regards to that one particular song.
Songs like "Illume," "Running Through The Garden," "Silver Girl," and "Goodbye Baby," are hardly what I'd call "commercial," from a lyrical standpoint.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is...
So, she wanted Warner Bros. execs to see that the project was commercially viable?
Big, fat, hairy deal. ;) :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

In fact, perhaps we could even say Stevie was responsible for getting the larger advance from WB that LB apparently coveted :shrug:

[shackin'up]

When discussing Stevie's "praying to the commercial gods" comment, it absolutely has to be taken in context.

The band was playing their music for record company executives, whom they were trying to persuade to give them a contract to release this music.
Record execs see dollar signs, and want to know that their investment will bear fruit.
So Stevie was pointing out what they wanted to hear... that there were some commercial songs there, that they could use to sell albums.

Not to mention the fact that the "praying to the commercial gods" reference was made in regards to that one particular song.
Songs like "Illume," "Running Through The Garden," "Silver Girl," and "Goodbye Baby," are hardly what I'd call "commercial," from a lyrical standpoint.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is...
So, she wanted Warner Bros. execs to see that the project was commercially viable?
Big, fat, hairy deal. ;) :laugh:


SOOOOOOOOOOO True!!!

But still, don't you think it's a pity that, aside from the TD-discussion, Stevie makes very few comments on the artistic value of the whole project? I just would have liked to see some more quarrels about music. Also from Lindsey, by the way...

[teedee]

:D :D yes it's very experimental, unusual, unique and unlike anything I've ever heard the mac play before :p :laugh:


Like nothing you have ever heard the mac play before, are you kidding? have you not been listening to the mac since lindsey and stevie joined, hello? that song inparticular is very melodic, very, do i dare say "commercial sounding" I would like to know your definition of what experimental means to you. As for his other shall i say, what you others call Lindseys non commercial, experimental songs such as come or red rover. is it that he can play the drums on a box of kleenex or distort a vocal? as far as the song "come" goes, its nothing to far from a led zep song and that sound was back in the 70's. Its not that this type of song has never been recorded before or is so experimental that you never heard nothing like it ever before, maybe you never heard it before from lindsey within FM. but as far as WTWCT, that song is no different from any other song out there. This isnt to say that i dislike "come", its just that I do not see it as something thats never been done before. Maybe something lindsey has never done before in his solo or with FM . Just my opinion.

[teedee]

SOOOOOOOOOOO True!!!

But still, don't you think it's a pity that, aside from the TD-discussion, Stevie makes very few comments on the artistic value of the whole project? I just would have liked to see some more quarrels about music. Also from Lindsey, by the way...


Thats kind of unfair to say, we only saw 90 minutes of many, many hours, of filming. So we really will never know for sure what was said. I do however think, that if they do another studio album, it will be a joint effort. stevie was on tour and left the demos behind, and as for lindseys songs they were all done already except to add stevies vocals on them. I think it would be cool if they actually wrote some songs together and shared the musical sound of the tune as well, cause we know lindseys songs are mostly his visions, and i dont think he would be to interested in changing something on his song because stevie suggested it, but i may of course be wrong about that, but if they wrote together, that would be a real nice collaboration.

[saradorna]

When discussing Stevie's "praying to the commercial gods" comment, it absolutely has to be taken in context.

The band was playing their music for record company executives, whom they were trying to persuade to give them a contract to release this music.
Record execs see dollar signs, and want to know that their investment will bear fruit.
So Stevie was pointing out what they wanted to hear... that there were some commercial songs there, that they could use to sell albums.

Not to mention the fact that the "praying to the commercial gods" reference was made in regards to that one particular song.
Songs like "Illume," "Running Through The Garden," "Silver Girl," and "Goodbye Baby," are hardly what I'd call "commercial," from a lyrical standpoint.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is...
So, she wanted Warner Bros. execs to see that the project was commercially viable?
Big, fat, hairy deal. ;) :laugh:

one of the record execs say that SYW (the song) was commercial and that's why Stevie reacts and saids: "Commercial?, I pray to the commercial gods"

So, that would mean that she does not know what commercial is, anymore.

JMO,

Isabel :shrug:

[Johnny Stew]

SOOOOOOOOOOO True!!!

But still, don't you think it's a pity that, aside from the TD-discussion, Stevie makes very few comments on the artistic value of the whole project? I just would have liked to see some more quarrels about music. Also from Lindsey, by the way...Based on the various 'Say You Will' interviews, it seems that they didn't really quarrel too much about the music itself.
I can't remember exactly which interview, but Stevie said that she trusts Lindsey to do a wonderful job, and to not do something to her songs that she wouldn't like. And then she added that she also trusts him to listen to her opinions, on the off-chance that there is something she doesn't like.

But I know what you mean about your desire to hear Stevie talk about the artistic value of the project. I would have liked to have heard her discuss that, too.
Despite the fact that we didn't get to see that in the documentary though, I think Stevie's desire to do something artistic is very real.
To Performing Songwriter, she said:To me, we just have to get better. That's how we all looked at this record. This wasn't going to be just a dumb, stupid album. It's not going to be because we just felt like doing a record. This is because we needed to do this, and this musical entity needed to come through all of us, and we are serious as a heart attack about this.

Again, your typical Stevie Nicks song is not as overtly commercial as "Say You Will," so I really believe that her desire for an album or song to have commercial appeal, is secondary to her desire for artistic expression. And that any desire of commercial viability on her part, is born out of the idea that if you give the record company some of what they want, then you'll be able to also do what you want.

In the end, I think Lindsey and Stevie both want the freedom to express themselves however they choose... they just sometimes take different routes to get there.
Neither way is right, and neither way is wrong... it's what works for them, and it's a reflection of their different personalities. :)

[shackin'up]

Nice reply, johnny. I'm sure Stevie was serious about the artistic value, I would never question that. The thing is, that such a documentary pins down an image of you to the public. And I would just rather have seen an other image.

[Betsy]

I thought this thread had some good reading material to it. Maybe other newbies like myself (not quite a two-year old here) would like to read the comments.

I saw Destiny Rules and thought..."Wow...that guy is gonna let THAT material out about him? He must be very secure with his own self-image."