N.C. Parents Angered by Gay Prince Book

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by Sugar
I completly respect your concerns as a mother myself.

But I think our children will stumble across all sorts of things we'd rather they didn't while we're too busy doing the laundry and making lunches. In my mind stumbling across the book is akin to seeing two men kissing in the street. At seven, I don't see the harm in explaining this as "close friends" or "special friends". Maybe even "chosen life partner" as contrived and as adult as that sounds, it could work for a seven-year-old. No need to get into anything else at this age.

We have very close family friends who are a gay couple, so I suspect I will be dealing with this very early on in my daughter's life. My plan is to just explain it matter-of-factly in the most innocent of terms (it is just love after all) and not to make a big deal out of it. :)
Very true.. they will stumble across things and we have no control over there. But I will try to keep control as far as I can and if she doesn't stumble across it I will wait until I feel she needs to know.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
Very true.. they will stumble across things and we have no control over there. But I will try to keep control as far as I can and if she doesn't stumble across it I will wait until I feel she needs to know.


My sister is struggling with the control thing (for lack of a better term) now as well. My nephew is four years old and has recently learned, from friends, that men can marry men and he's also learned the dreaded "f word." My sister was really thrown for a loop because she wasn't expecting any of that until at least kindergarten when he'd be exposed to all sorts of different people...

Now, my sister is not anti-gay, but she in a conservative, and doesn't think my nephew is old enough to know about this kind of stuff. I think she handled the situation well though, and rather than going off on a "gay is bad and wrong" speil she tried to explain things to him factually so that one day, when he undestands, he can formulate his own opinion....

It must be scary as hell to raise kids in today's world...and I applaud those of you that do it...what saddens me is the way some parents teach hatred...example:

My sister teaches seventh grade. Recently she has been trying to get her student to stop using the term, "that's gay!" it's very common and it's meant to be an insult, and so my sister told them they would be written up for using it because it is rude and disrespectful and implies that "gay" is something abhorrent and bad....to which one of her seventh graders replied, "Well, gay people are bad and wrong, if I see any I want to kill them!!" Well..my sister was totally shocked by this...already this kid is filled with so much hate toward gay people...where did this come from? His parent, of course...

So my sister's reply was, "Well statistically at least two people in this room are gay." Well, that freaked the kid out and he was like, "I don't wanna be in a room with no gay people, I'll kill them..." So my sisters attempt at open-mindedness was for naught....and just to note...she never offered her own opinion on homosexuality....even though the kids asked...she felt it was just her place to promote tolernace toward one another....etc....anyway I think I've gone off on quite a tangent....but hopefully it made a little sense....the world, as it is today, saddens me sometimes...:shrug:

[Alison]

Don't allways assume that parents teach their kids anti gay and hate. I don't have that much power over my teens.
My son is 14 uses that term "gay", he not to use that in my house. I have had some pretty heated disagreaments over his attitude and hate towards gay people. I did not teach him to be that way towards any person, that would go against what Jesus teaches.
As far as his peers at school think and talk about I don't know. But don't always think it's the parents. My oldest son smokes takes drugs and steals. Well I don't do drugs, drink, smoke or steal. My other kids just shake thier heads at him and can't figure him out.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally posted by Alison
Don't allways assume that parents teach their kids anti gay and hate. I don't have that much power over my teens.
My son is 14 uses that term "gay", he not to use that in my house. I have had some pretty heated disagreaments over his attitude and hate towards gay people. I did not teach him to be that way towards any person, that would go against what Jesus teaches.
As far as his peers at school think and talk about I don't know. But don't always think it's the parents. My oldest son smokes takes drugs and steals. Well I don't do drugs, drink, smoke or steal. My other kids just shake thier heads at him and can't figure him out.

True true, and I don't always assume it's the parents....but in this case it seems to be...I didn't give a background...but in this area there is a very large Hispanic population (I am Hispanic myself) and a lot of old-school hispanos are very anti-gay...very into the "Machismo"-men are in control and macho etc thing....and a lot of times the men are very anti-gay to a violent degree...not I am not stereotypying...I'm not saying all Hispanics feel this way, because I was not raised in a family like that...but there are many families like that and many that aren't...but this kid comes from one that is...so he's already a little macho jerk...his mom and dad hate gays...he was taught to hate gays...at least that's what he told my sister (his mom and dad hate gays)

I never stated that it's always the parents....I said "some parents teach hate" not "all parents whose kids are hateful teach hate..." I do know that sometimes kids get their own ideas and are able to think for themselves...so don't worry...I'm not, in any way, saying..."it's always the parents..."

[Alison]

Thank you for clearing that up. Now I can see the whole picture.

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I think these two guys thought of themselves as Gods. Interestingly, wasn't Hitler an athesist?

Hitler was fascinated by the occult. He certainly persecuted some religions and tried to use others to his advantage. Who can be sure of his true beliefs, except that they probably aligned with no popular religion I know.

- Jake

[strandinthewind]

I long for the day when it is not an issue. I mean just 20 or so years ago interracial couple had the same sort of taboo that has to be explained, etc. I mean I get that children should be sheltered from things and that that is a good thing AND it certainly is hard enough being a parent. But, to equate a gay or any other kind of couple to a "wrong" that must be explained, if you will, is a little bit condescending from the point of view of the gay person. I mean there is no need to shelter kids from straight couples because that is the norm and everyelse is abnormal and, therefore, perceived in some general way as bad or taboo. So, I long for the day when it is accepted as the norm and the only way for that to ever happen is for gay people to fight to get there a la the civil rights movement of the 50's and 60's.

Note: Pip and Alison - I am not rebuking you or anything like that. I am just commenting in general on most peoples' feelings that a gay couple or topic is kind of forbidden in the sense that it needs to be explained, etc. So hopefully no harm no foul :cool:

[Mari]

^ agreed, every word of it.

[Johnny Stew]

I've always found children to be quite open-minded and accepting of others.
We're the ones who become all tense and fret over how we need to explain the differences to them... but if we don't make a big deal out of it, a child will see two people of the same gender holding hands, or someone with a different skin color, and accept that as normal.

Left to their own devices, a child will generally accept something and move on.... we (adult role-models, society in general) are the ones who create the notion that something is different or abnormal, by our knee-jerk reaction of feeling the need to explain.

[Sugar]

:nod:

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
I hope you don't class me like that Johnny, after reading my above comment. I am certainly not narrow minded but I just feel that children seem to have to grow up far too quickly nowadays, and life is complicated enough. When asked the question I will explain the best I can. Until then I'm not going to confuse the issue.I completely agree with you on the matter that children have to grow up far too quickly these days.
A child should have time to be a child, without "adult subjects" interfering. :nod: :)

But I do really feel that there are certain subjects... two people of the same gender being affectionate towards each other, for example... that don't really require an explanation, unless the child asks.
Children give each other hugs and kisses, so they usually don't tend to question it when they see adults do the same thing.

Still, each child and each situation is different, and it should always be left up to a parent's discretion. My problem with the Hartsells, was that they were threatening to keep the book... which would prevent anyone from reading it, not just their own child.

I still have to wonder whether their daughter questioned them about the content of the book, or if they just saw the subject matter and panicked.

[Johnny Stew]

(An update....)

N.C. School Restricts Book on Gay Prince
Sat Mar 27, 5:22 PM ET

WILMINGTON, N.C. - A children's book about a prince whose true love turns out to be another prince will be available only to adults in an elementary school's library, a committee has decided.

The book, called "King & King," will be locked up at Freeman Elementary School in response to complaints by some parents, a school committee ruled Friday in an 8-3 vote.

The parents who initially complained after their first-grader brought home the book say the decision satisfies them. Michael and Tonya Hartsell said they never wanted the book banned.

"It might be appropriate in certain situations," Michael Hartsell said. "But a child of this age shouldn't have a choice."

In the book, a queen tells her single son, Prince Bertie, that she had already been married twice at his age. The prince dismisses a line of eligible princesses before finally falling for Prince Lee. The final page of the book shows the two princes kissing with a red heart covering their lips.

The Hartsells submitted a written complaint about the book to the school Monday, which resulted in a review by the committee of parents, educators and community members. A second couple, Channing and Beth Hatcher, filed a similar complaint Tuesday.

The authors, Linda de Haan and Stern Nijland, of the Netherlands, have said they didn't set out to write a controversial book. School officials have said they didn't intentionally order a book with a gay theme.

One parent on the committee, Heather Stoker, said the book promotes diversity and focuses on love, not homosexuality, she said.

"I feel like it's my responsibility to make it clear that these things exist," she said. "It doesn't mean we have to agree with it. It's not about right or wrong. It's just different."

[strandinthewind]

My point exactly - this would never happen if the prince instead shacked up with a woman out of wedlock. Both, BTW, would be sins, etc. :rolleyes:

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
In the book, a queen tells her single son, Prince Bertie, that she had already been married twice at his age.

Hmm. Wonder why they felt the need to make Bertie's mom dissatisfied in her relationships with men? Interesting.

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
My point exactly - this would never happen if the prince instead shacked up with a woman out of wedlock. Both, BTW, would be sins, etc. :rolleyes:

Actually, I think a lot of parents wouldn't be too thrilled with that book either! lol

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
My vote is Nancy is great (can I use the kissing emoticon again :laugh: )

Oh, and I forgot to say, thank you Jason! You are a sweetheart. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by sodascouts
Hmm. Wonder why they felt the need to make Bertie's mom dissatisfied in her relationships with men? Interesting. Perhaps the authors were subtly commenting on the fact that a marriage won't necessarily be happy and fulfilling, simply because it meets society's ideals... while showing that a same-gender marriage can definitely be "traditional," even though it doesn't fit those ideals.

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew


But I do really feel that there are certain subjects... two people of the same gender being affectionate towards each other, for example... that don't really require an explanation, unless the child asks.
Children give each other hugs and kisses, so they usually don't tend to question it when they see adults do the same thing.



Do you have children Johnny? Let me tell you.... they question EVERYTHING!!

Pip

[Gypsy-Rhiannon]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew


Still, each child and each situation is different, and it should always be left up to a parent's discretion.

That was my main point in all this. It certainly isn't because I feel anything is 'wrong'. And in my instance it has nothing to do with religion. I know a lot of you don't agree with me but I will always do what i feel best for MY children

Pip

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
Do you have children Johnny? Let me tell you.... they question EVERYTHING!!Don't have children of my own, but we have a large extended family, so I'm constantly around kids.

You're right, they do ask a lot of questions... but my experience has been that they don't usually ask questions about something that's just presented as normal. :)

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon
I know a lot of you don't agree with me but I will always do what i feel best for MY childrenTrust me, Pip, I whole-heartedly agree that you, and every parent, should do what you feel is best for your children. Far too many parents take a passive role in what their children are learning.

However, I do think parents should be mindful of not impressing their own prejudices upon their children. If a child asks what "gay" means, all a parent has to do is explain the term. They don't have to say whether it's right or wrong, or sinful, etc.
But then, "I am something of a dreamer...."

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
I wasn't calling you a dog here, he had chosen the word "gals". You ARE a gal, right? If not, another clarifying private message is warranted.:laugh: :laugh:

- Jake

Well, my two black children are most cartainly bitches. AND Laine won best in open bitches and best reserve bitch (her seond one). Wynn came in second in her class. Ah the beaming father cannot be contained!!!! :cool:

Back to Marissa, her Jersey hair would disquailfy her in the Scottie breed. Standard poople - perhaps :laugh:

:] :woohoo: WE LOVE YOU MARISSA :woohoo: :]

Back to topic. Let's have a good old fashion book burnin' :cool:

Finally, Pip, and other parents for that matter, I hear what your saying and respect ya for it :cool:

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Standard poople [/B]

:eek: Interesting typo - or not.

- Jake

[darklinensuit]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by strandinthewind
[B]Well, my two black children are most cartainly bitches. AND Laine won best in open bitches and best reserve bitch (her seond one). Wynn came in second in her class. Ah the beaming father cannot be contained!!!! :cool:QUOTE]

And congratulations.
As far as being contained, have you tried pulling the zipper UP instead of down?:laugh: :laugh:

- Jake

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
:eek: Interesting typo - or not.

- Jake

:eek: :eek: :eek:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I say a variation of this all the time - except I add a "doing" after "are." And I mean it.



Well I'm gay, and I'll tell you what I'm "doing." I'm in a committed monogomous and loving relationship with another human being who is in a committed loving and monogomous relationship with me. This relationship has lasted for the past 4 years and I intend it to continue until the day I die, regardless as to whether or the unjust laws of this country choose to acknowledge my relationship or not. Sure sounds terrible and wrong, doesn't it.

I'll tell you what else I'm "doing." I've been attending church since I was born and I have understood for years that the vengeful and wrathful God that exisited throughout the Old Testament is no more - that we as Christians have entered into a new covenant with him - one of peace, love, and forgiveness. I'm sorry that some other Christians cannot or choose not to recognize this. I'm sorry that some choose to view the Bible as a message of hatred and not one of peace and love. I have a feeling that in a few hundred years, we will be looking back upon this issue and laughing, just as we now laugh at the notion of a woman being the property of her husband, etc.

[darklinensuit]

Originally posted by SmthngOfADreamr

I'll tell you what else I'm "doing." I've been attending church since I was born and I have understood for years that the vengeful and wrathful God that exisited throughout the Old Testament is no more - that we as Christians have entered into a new covenant with him - one of peace, love, and forgiveness. I'm sorry that some other Christians cannot or choose not to recognize this.

Sorry to nitpick, and I hope I don't offend people, but I feel the need to speak up when I keep seeing posts in which the G-d of the "Old Testament" is juxtaposed as the vengeful being against the loving and forgiving Christian G-d. For hundreds of years this argument was used to make Judaism appear antiquated. The narrative of the Hebrew Bible presents G-d as a being that withdraws himself by the time of the story of Joseph, and is present only in spirit by the Book of Esther. Justice is of primary importance in these tales, but not to the whole exclusion of love and forgiveness. Believe if you wish that your G-d or faith supercedes mine, but please allow me to say what mine is. Like I said, no offense intended.

- Jake

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by darklinensuit
Sorry to nitpick, and I hope I don't offend people, but I feel the need to speak up when I keep seeing posts in which the G-d of the "Old Testament" is juxtaposed as the vengeful being against the loving and forgiving Christian G-d. For hundreds of years this argument was used to make Judaism appear antiquated. The narrative of the Hebrew Bible presents G-d as a being that withdraws himself by the time of the story of Joseph, and is present only in spirit by the Book of Esther. Justice is of primary importance in these tales, but not to the whole exclusion of love and forgiveness. Believe if you wish that your G-d or faith supercedes mine, but please allow me to say what mine is. Like I said, no offense intended.

- Jake

I was thinking that Jake and then thinking how to word it :laugh: As usual, you did FAR better than I ever could have, being a gentile and all ;)