The album that could have been... [Archive]

SteveMacD

02-02-2004, 01:52 AM

Okay, so I was thinking (which can be dangerous) that Fleetwood Mac hasn't really had what I'd consider to be a classic album since "Tusk." All of the albums since "Tusk" have varied in quality (and personnel). We got a taste of what a Big Mac reunion would be like with "The Dance," but we weren't given a full album of new material from the Big Mac. While I think we can all agree that "Say You Will" is Fleetwood Mac's best album since "Tusk," Christine isn't there and most (including Stevie) feel it's way too long.

However, she was on the so-so album, "Time." Her songs on "Time" really didn't do a lot for me. But then I started wondering if it was the songs or the context in which the songs appear, related to the other songs. Part of the magic of the Big Mac was that the three writers were able to balance each other out. But with that album, the other singers' material really wasn't complimentary to Christine's material. (Rather odd that Christine seems out of place on a Fleetwood Mac album.)

Which leads us to "Say You Will." There are a lot of great songs, as well as a few songs which should have been left off the album. The album, for me, just doesn't flow so well. I always skip a few tracks. It's still a great album, but not quite a classic.

With this in mind, I figured out a way to have a new Big Mac album that feels like a classic. Cut the songs I skip on "Say You Will" and add Christine's songs from "Time." Also, throw in "Twisted" for good measure. Here's how it played out:

What's The World Coming To
Hollywood (Some Other Kind Of Town)
Thrown Down
Miranda
I Do
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Sooner Or Later
Steal Your Heart Away
Twisted
Bleed to Love Her
Nights In Estoril
Destiny Rules
All Over Again
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

And, how does it sound? Surprisingly good. It's an album that one can listen to in one sitting, without skipping over songs (though "Sooner or Later could have been cut by a minute). Sure, there are differences in production, but the songs brilliantly flow together, in that classic, balanced Big Mac way.

DownOnRodeo

02-02-2004, 05:02 AM

I think I know where you're coming from, but frankly I'm glad you weren't in charge of the track list, Marcus :laugh:

RTTG and Murrow are two of SYW's standout highlights for me. They've just got so much oomph. Sooner or Later does not have oomph. ;)

shackin'up

02-02-2004, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
I think I know where you're coming from, but frankly I'm glad you weren't in charge of the track list, Marcus :laugh:

RTTG and Murrow are two of SYW's standout highlights for me. They've just got so much oomph. Sooner or Later does not have oomph. ;)

exactly,

If you want a classic, you need to have some tracks that conquer the borders of the expected, like murrow, illume, Red rover, come etc. I'm glad say you will is say you will. The only thing that misses on Say You Will is 5 tracks, and the fact that is was supposed to be a double album.

But, it is an interesting experiment to put in some christine songs, although to be honest, I don't miss them, noyt on SYW, nor in concert.

gerald

blinker12

02-02-2004, 05:13 AM

I agree with you that the album's length is a large part of what keeps it from "flowing," though of course as a rabid fan I'm thrilled to have all the tracks, especially considering Mac's current pace of one new album a decade. :rolleyes:
Another problem is the inclusion of the kind of self-indulgent tunes that really belong on solo albums ("Come," "Murrow," "Silver Girl," "RTTG"). As fun as "Everybody Finds Out" is, I think it will sound dated very quickly, while "Smile at You" falls prey to Lindsey's overproduction. Cut those out, along with the unnecessary retread of "Bleed to Love Her," and you've got an album that's solid all the way through.
I wouldn't add any Christine tracks, though. As much as I miss her, she just wasn't a part of this project, so I think it would feel forced to include her "Time" songs.
Here's my 11-song version of SYW:

1. What's The World Coming To
2. Thrown Down
3. Miranda
4. Peacekeeper
5. Say You Will
6. Destiny Rules
7. Say Goodbye
8. Steal Your Heart Away
9. Illume
10. Red Rover
11. Goodbye Baby

(I broke up the pairing of "Say Goodbye" and "Goodbye Baby," which I found a little cutesy.)

shackin'up

02-02-2004, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by blinker12
Another problem is the inclusion of the kind of self-indulgent tunes that really belong on solo albums ("Come," "Murrow," "Silver Girl," "RTTG"). As fun as "Everybody Finds Out" is, I think it will sound dated very quickly, while "Smile at You" falls prey to Lindsey's overproduction.

Sometimes I don't understand my fellow fans. If you call these tunes "not belonging"on a FM-album and self-indulged
( somebody explain to me : what the h*ll is that!!!!), then what is the titletrack of Tango in the night doing there? And Tusk on Tusk, Sara on Tusk, Pretty much all of lindsey's tunes on Tusk etcetera. Or is that album no FM album? Then I'm not a FM-fan.

If I understand the term Self-indulged well, then Fleetwood Mac is a selfindulged band. And they make self-indulged songs. So I'm a self-indulged fan.

Gerald "I'm so great" van K.

macfan 57

02-02-2004, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by SteveMacD

What's The World Coming To
Hollywood (Some Other Kind Of Town)
Thrown Down
Miranda
I Do
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Sooner Or Later
Steal Your Heart Away
Twisted
Bleed to Love Her
Nights In Estoril
Destiny Rules
All Over Again
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

And, how does it sound? Surprisingly good. It's an album that one can listen to in one sitting, without skipping over songs (though "Sooner or Later could have been cut by a minute). Sure, there are differences in production, but the songs brilliantly flow together, in that classic, balanced Big Mac way.

That's a very interesting track list. I like it ALOT. You also got rid of the songs on SYW that I hate. It's definitely a more true Fleetwood Mac album, instead of just a couple of solo albums thrown together. I might try to re-do SYW also, just to make it more listenable.

chiliD

02-02-2004, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by SteveMacD
However, she was on the so-so album, "Time." Her songs on "Time" really didn't do a lot for me. But then I started wondering if it was the songs or the context in which the songs appear, related to the other songs. Part of the magic of the Big Mac was that the three writers were able to balance each other out. But with that album, the other singers' material really wasn't complimentary to Christine's material. (Rather odd that Christine seems out of place on a Fleetwood Mac album.)

So, you're saying that you've changed your opinion of Time over the course of the last decade? You were always (along with me) one of its most vocal proponents. What's up? :shrug:

GypsySorcerer

02-02-2004, 09:52 AM

I didn't really miss Chris much on the SYW tour (except on Don't Stop, and her harmonies on Beautiful Child & the Chain). But when I listen to SYW, as much as I love it, I find myself missing her light ballads after listening to songs like Murrow and Illume.

As fun as "Everybody Finds Out" is, I think it will sound dated very quickly,

I think EFO already sounds dated, with those cheesy 80s synths. I'll listen to it, but I just don't really enjoy it.

But I think SYW could be a top-notch album with some tracks cut. I don't think Chris, though, would fit well on this album, even with some songs left out. Here is my dream SYW track list:

1) What's the World Coming To
2) Thrown Down
3) Miranda
4) Say You Will
5) Peace keeper
6) Come
7) Running Through the Garden
8) Say Goodbye
9) Destiny Rules
10) Steal Your Heart Away
11) Goodbye Baby

face of glass

02-02-2004, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by GypsySorcerer
I think EFO already sounds dated, with those cheesy 80s synths.

It's not a synth, it's Lindsey's guitar. For the record, I think the synths on "Stand Back", on the album version and every live version I've heard, are cheesier than anything on "EFO" or even Go Insane. A matter of taste, of course.

cliffdweller

02-02-2004, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by SteveMacD
While I think we can all agree that "Say You Will" is Fleetwood Mac's best album since "Tusk," Christine isn't there and most (including Stevie) feel it's way too long.

Which leads us to "Say You Will." There are a lot of great songs, as well as a few songs which should have been left off the album. The album, for me, just doesn't flow so well. I always skip a few tracks. It's still a great album, but not quite a classic.

Ummm....I guess I disagree with you on these two points. I don't think that Say You Will is too long, I mean, we haven't had anything new from them in quite a number of years, since Tango really, and it only makes sense that they have a lot to say, and frankly, I want as much material as I can get on a "come-lately" album from my favorite band.

Also, I think that SYW is a classic Mac album, albeit more of a Lindsey album than a Stevie one. The only gripe I have is that Stevie didn't represent herself to her fullest potential on SYW, I wish her material was a little stronger, there are some gems don't get me wrong, but I think we can all agree that this is a Lindsey album through and through. However, in the end, it's irrelevant who "shines" the most, SYW is a classic Mac album all the way, but maybe I'm easy to please!

:wavey: :wavey:

CarneVaca

02-02-2004, 10:45 AM

If I edited SYW, it would look like this:

What's the World Coming To
Murrow
Thrown Down
Miranda
Red Rover
Peacekeeper
Say You Will
Smile at You
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Say Goodbye
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
Goodbye Baby

JamieSPC

02-02-2004, 11:04 AM

I always liked "Nights in Estoril," the only thing I still listen to from the "Time" album.

~Jamie

chiliD

02-02-2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by cliffdweller
...I mean, we haven't had anything new from them in quite a number of years, since Tango really...

Ummm...

Behind The Mask
Time

You're being as myopic as the OFFICIAL site. Shame on you! :distress:

strandinthewind

02-02-2004, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
If I edited SYW, it would look like this:

What's the World Coming To
Murrow
Thrown Down
Miranda
Red Rover
Peacekeeper
Say You Will
Smile at You
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Say Goodbye
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
Goodbye Baby

Great minds think (almost) alike!! :laugh:

I would, however, replace "What's the World Coming To" with "Bleed to Love Her" as the latter has some of LB's IMO most brilliant guitar work at the end and I just do not like the former.

I would also put LB's original PK in the record and take out the one they have now - or keep the one they have now and put SN just in the chorus and not in the melody.

My $0.02

P.S. I think "Nights in Estoril," which I love, would have fit in on SYW. So, I might put it in there as well in my perfect world.

ShangriLaTroubl

02-02-2004, 11:28 AM

I'm not a big fan of Lindsey's GOS Peacekeeper...I think Stevie's vocals make it a good song......I'm glad they actually paired up vocally on the lead parts on a couple of songs...in my opinion THAT if anything is what made it have a Fleetwood Mac feel...and not just two solo albums called a Fleetwood Mac album feel....

Chris

CarneVaca

02-02-2004, 12:02 PM

Strand, if you're going to get that picky, then I would do the following:

Disc One:
Twist of Fate
Shuffle Riff
The Dealer (a stretch, I know)
Down on Rodeo
Thrown Down
Deep Dense
Red Rover
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind
Say You Will
Miranda
Goodbye Baby

Disc Two:
What's the World Coming To
Illume
Peacekeeper (the original)
Smile At You
Gift of Screws
Murrow
Destiny Rules
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
The Singer Not the Song
Say Goodbye

wondergirl9847

02-02-2004, 12:40 PM

I like your list, but WTWCT and Singer Not the Song could be replaced by SYHA and Come. I prefer those two.

But hey, as long as Red Rover is there...WHATEVAH!! :nod:

LOL

The Dealer's time has passed IMO...perfection for Belladonna. :(:(:(

strandinthewind

02-02-2004, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Strand, if you're going to get that picky, then I would do the following:

Disc One:
Twist of Fate
Shuffle Riff
The Dealer (a stretch, I know)
Down on Rodeo
Thrown Down
Deep Dense
Red Rover
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind
Say You Will
Miranda
Goodbye Baby

Disc Two:
What's the World Coming To
Illume
Peacekeeper (the original)
Smile At You
Gift of Screws
Murrow
Destiny Rules
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
The Singer Not the Song
Say Goodbye

Me Picky :shrug: :laugh:

I would put a killer LB produced "Space Needle" in the place of Deep Dense and Bleed to Love Her in place of WTWCT. But, there is no reason both of these couldn't be added to your list!!! :cool:

CarneVaca

02-02-2004, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Me Picky :shrug: :laugh:

I would put a killer LB produced "Space Needle" in the place of Deep Dense and Bleed to Love Her in place of WTWCT. But, there is no reason both of these couldn't be added to your list!!! :cool:

I don't know Space Needle. WHere might I find it?

strandinthewind

02-02-2004, 01:57 PM

I have it, but not here. I can email it to you tommorow when I get to my other comp. PM me with your address, etc.

Here are the lyrics. It is kind of a trippy out there song. I think it could be done a la a Saraesq myterious kind of song.

Space Needle

I remember the long, cold winter
I remember being hot all the time
I remember the black Space Needle
Casting its black shadow down through time
I remember the loss of enchantment
In everyone I'd see
And seeing my own face
In each one of their faces
Looking back at me

Beautiful faces...
Not so beautiful anymore
When it began I was standing at the crossroads
That was then... this is now

Through the long, hard summer
I remember feeling cold in the heat
I remember an icy feeling
Working through the streets

I remember the loss of enchantment
Everyone I'd see
I see my own face in each one of their faces
Looking back at me
My own face... in each one of their faces
Looking back at me

Beautiful faces...
Not so beautiful anymore
When it began I was standing at the crossroads
That was then... this is now

One day comes, and then it goes
It's all the same to me now
Another day here is like another day closer
To getting out of this town
And one thing I said I would never do
Was come from a place of fear
But fear is nothing, nothing to me now
...I no longer care
Fear is nothing to me now
I no longer care

Beautiful faces...
Not so beautiful anymore
When it began I was standing at the crossroads
That was then... this is now

We've got to get out of this place
If it's the last thing we ever do
A haunting song from the rock and roll past...
Ooh, they said that, too
Now we are dying, just like them
It's a stranger deja vu
Ooh, the tar people are back again
Sad... very true

Well, they're back again...
Sad, it's very true

Beautiful faces...
Not so beautiful anymore
When it began I was standing at the crossroads
That was then... this is now

Sometimes I feel like how could this have happened,
How could this happen to me?
Sometimes the sun shines from behind the black needle
But it is never sunny
Ooh, it is always black
There is always a shadow
A shadow following me
My music is lost, I am very thin
I am always in need
My music is lost, I am very thin
I am always in need

Beautiful faces...
Not so beautiful anymore
When it began I was standing at the crossroads
I was hopeful, that was then... this is now
When it began I was standing at the crossroads
I was hopeful, that was then... this is now
That was then... and this is now
This is now...
This is now...
This is now...
This is now...
Now...

HomerMcvie

02-02-2004, 02:05 PM

Ummm....I guess I disagree with you on these two points. I don't think that Say You Will is too long, I mean, we haven't had anything new from them in quite a number of years
I think the main CD should've been pared down by a few songs. Put the non flowing clunkers:laugh: on the BONUS disk! Duh. What do you have then? An album with a MUCH better flow(which might've sold better). The fanatics are gonna buy the Deluxe set anyway, so they still get the songs that don't fit, on the 2nd CD. Just because you can fit 80 minutes on a CD, doesn't mean you should.:eek:

shackin'up

02-02-2004, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Strand, if you're going to get that picky, then I would do the following:

Disc One:
Twist of Fate
Shuffle Riff
The Dealer (a stretch, I know)
Down on Rodeo
Thrown Down
Deep Dense
Red Rover
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind
Say You Will
Miranda
Goodbye Baby

Disc Two:
What's the World Coming To
Illume
Peacekeeper (the original)
Smile At You
Gift of Screws
Murrow
Destiny Rules
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
The Singer Not the Song
Say Goodbye

Good one!, But: replace the two covers with Come and Given Thing. But still: we will have a "self-indulged" album here.....

:eek: :eek:

gerald

SteveMacD

02-02-2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by chiliD
So, you're saying that you've changed your opinion of Time over the course of the last decade? You were always (along with me) one of its most vocal proponents. What's up? :shrug:

I've always said that it was a poor band effort, that it felt more like a compilation than a new album. Christine sound horribly out of place. Dave's stuff pales in comparison to his solo material. His material sounds way too '80s, which was bad in 1995. And, Bekka and Billy sound too restrained. There was very little balance with the album.

dissention

02-02-2004, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by ShangriLaTroubl
I'm not a big fan of Lindsey's GOS Peacekeeper...I think Stevie's vocals make it a good song......I'm glad they actually paired up vocally on the lead parts on a couple of songs...in my opinion THAT if anything is what made it have a Fleetwood Mac feel...and not just two solo albums called a Fleetwood Mac album feel....

Chris

I like Stevie's vocals on the verses, but they aggravate me during the chorus. I think that she should've been left off of it and the solo version should've been in its place. The solo version was a harder rocker, whereas the album version was too soft.

Josh2003

02-02-2004, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't know Space Needle. WHere might I find it?

Look at Carne! He's a demo-collectin' fool now! Can't get enough! ;)

dissention

02-02-2004, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I don't know Space Needle. WHere might I find it?

Lord child, you're getting into the demos at an alarming rate. :laugh:

SteveMacD

02-02-2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by cliffdweller
Ummm....I guess I disagree with you on these two points. I don't think that Say You Will is too long, I mean, we haven't had anything new from them in quite a number of years, since Tango really, and it only makes sense that they have a lot to say, and frankly, I want as much material as I can get on a "come-lately" album from my favorite band.

Also, I think that SYW is a classic Mac album, albeit more of a Lindsey album than a Stevie one. The only gripe I have is that Stevie didn't represent herself to her fullest potential on SYW, I wish her material was a little stronger, there are some gems don't get me wrong, but I think we can all agree that this is a Lindsey album through and through. However, in the end, it's irrelevant who "shines" the most, SYW is a classic Mac album all the way, but maybe I'm easy to please!

:wavey: :wavey:

I agree that it it's great to have a lot of new material. However, the album just does not flow well. As for your statement of SYW being a "classic Mac album, albeit more of a Lindsey album than a Stevie one," that's exactly why I don't think it's a classic Mac album. "Fleetwood Mac" and "Rumours" were classic Mac albums. There weren't any bad songs on either album, the songs flowed well together, the singers were all on par with each other, and you could listen to either album without skipping a track in one sitting. For me, that's a classic album. SYW is a great album, but it falls short of being a classic.

SteveMacD

02-02-2004, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
RTTG and Murrow are two of SYW's standout highlights for me. They've just got so much oomph. Sooner or Later does not have oomph. ;)

I won't disagree on either point. "Sooner or Later" is my least favorite Christine song on "Time." However, it sounds surprisingly good after "Smile At You." As I said, that song could have easily been trimmed down by a minute.

As for RTTG and Murrow, I like both songs. But, my goal was to create a great Mac album, not necessarily an album of favorite, stand-out songs. To put it another way, I love "I'm So Afraid," but I don't think it would have fit on "Tusk."

wondergirl9847

02-02-2004, 02:47 PM

I had to go dig out Space Needle to give it a listen...which also has The Dealer on it. YAY!! LOL

I love Space Needle...and usually songs that are like 8 minutes long, I am wanting to rip my hair out, but I loved it at first listen...it's so weird and unusual. That guy that comes in and sings with her sounds like Vince Gill to me, but I know it's not. :laugh:

I wish she'd release it as is...it's awesome! A bonus single on her next solo album for goodness sakes...ANYTHING!!

chiliD

02-02-2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by HomerMcvie
I think the main CD should've been pared down by a few songs. Put the non flowing clunkers:laugh: on the BONUS disk! Duh. What do you have then? An album with a MUCH better flow(which might've sold better). The fanatics are gonna buy the Deluxe set anyway, so they still get the songs that don't fit, on the 2nd CD. Just because you can fit 80 minutes on a CD, doesn't mean you should.:eek:

I think re-programming the running order lessens the lack of flow.

My SYW order:

What's The World Coming To?
Thrown Down
Bleed To Love her
Say You Will
Miranda
Everybody Finds Out
Come
Running Through The Garden
Say Goodbye
Destiny Rules
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Red Rover
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Not Make Believe (as a substitute for "Silver Girl")
Steal Your Heart Away
Goodbye Baby

Johnny Stew

02-02-2004, 02:58 PM

If we think Fleetwood Mac is bad when it comes to making decisions, it's a good thing they've never asked us Ledgies to put together an album for them!
We can't agree on anything!
"Leave that song off, and add this one!" "No, no, no... that song sucks! Add this one instead!" :laugh: ;)

Personally, I like 'Say You Will' with the songs that are already on it, and I wouldn't remove anything or add songs from other albums.
I also disagree that it sounds like "solo albums slapped together"... after all, that criticism has been leveled at the band since 'Tusk' was released.

Stevie & Lindsey (and Christine) have such distinct writing styles, that there's just no way around that... although I definitely feel that the running orders often make the difference even more pronounced.

So, the only thing I'd do (and have done), is change the running order of 'Say You Will'....[list=1]
What's The World Coming To
Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Murrow
Illume
Say Goodbye
Running Through The Garden
Miranda
Everybody Finds Out
Steal Your Heart Away
Silver Girl
Come
Destiny Rules
Red Rover
Goodbye Baby
[/list=1]And when I listen to it on my computer... since I'm not limited to keeping it under 80 minutes... I add "Not Make Believe" and "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" from the bonus disc:[list=1]
What's The World Coming To
Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Not Make Believe
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Murrow
Illume
Say Goodbye
Running Through The Garden
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
Everybody Finds Out
Steal Your Heart Away
Silver Girl
Come
Thrown Down
Miranda
Destiny Rules
Red Rover
Goodbye Baby
[/list=1]

CarneVaca

02-02-2004, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I also disagree that it sounds like "solo albums slapped together"... after all, that criticism has been leveled at the band since 'Tusk' was released.

I think it is fair to say that about Tusk, but somehow it works, much like it does in the Beatles' White Album. I don't think it applies to Mirage and Tango, though. Both those albums have a "sound," especially Tango. Say You Will lacks a cohesive sound. But it's not because of the "two solo albums" reason. To me, the sound differs not by artist necessarily, but rather by the time at which the song was written or produced. If you put Steal Your Heart Away, Bleed to Love Her, Down on Rodeo, Gotta Get Away, The Singer Not the Song and Twist of Fate together, you have a cohesive sound. Then you could throw in Say Goodbye, Red Rover, What's The World Coming too, and even Love Minus Zero/No Limit, withouth upsetting that cohesion of sound.

Then you have things like Shuffle Riff, Gift of Screws, Deep Dense, etc., that could belong in a different album altogether.

And that's just Lindsey's songs. The same goes for Stevie. Running through the Garden and Silver Girl don't fit with things like Smile at You, Goodbye Baby and Illume. But that's a production issue, considering they were all produced within the same 18-month period.

I understand and respect what Lindsey tried to do with the track list. It just didn't work too well for me.

Johnny Stew

02-02-2004, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I think it is fair to say that about Tusk, but somehow it works, much like it does in the Beatles' White Album. I don't think it applies to Mirage and Tango, though. Both those albums have a "sound," especially Tango. Say You Will lacks a cohesive sound. But it's not because of the "two solo albums" reason. To me, the sound differs not by artist necessarily, but rather by the time at which the song was written or produced.It applies to 'Mirage' and 'Tango' in a less pronounced way than it does to 'Tusk,' I think.

For example, on 'Mirage,' Lindsey's 1950s-sounding songs like "Oh Diane" and "Can't Go Back" don't necessarily sound like they fit next to "Gypsy" or "Hold Me.

And Stevie's "When I See You Again" and "Welcome To The Room... Sara" on 'Tango' seem a little too dark to fit next to perkier fare like "Family Man" and "You And I, part 2."

But I do agree with you that, on the whole, those two albums sound more cohesive than 'Tusk.'

Oddly enough though, even though some of the 'SYW' songs sound different production-wise, I really think it works to great effect there. I've actually thought that 'Say You Will' sounds like a marriage between 'Tusk' and 'Tango,' with a brand new sensibility added to the mix.

There's a great amount of variety in the sound of the album, in my opinion... although, I also think the track-listing could have been more complimentary to the individual songs, and therefore, to the album as a whole. :)

joe68

02-02-2004, 03:39 PM

I remember hearing PK before SYW came out and thinking, cool. Then SYW, Destiny Rules and WTWCT and still thinking, great!

The the crap hit the fan with Smile At You. I had such high hopes for this song. I know I've heard it a 1000 times as a demo, but even without comparing it with all those demos, there is no way I would have liked the SYW version of this song.

Shortly after I bought the whole record, and then came the skipping songs, the thinking 'I waited 16 years for that?!' , etc.
I'm the biggest Stevie fan around and I can find something to like about everything she records, but EFO? Are you kidding me? RTTG was such a good demo, until they used the same cheesy guitar riff. No song is special here. No one song blows me away. Even the good songs could have been better:

Get rid of all the repetitive chorus' on SYW
Get rid of Lindsey's over dubbed voice on Illume
Get rid of Stevie's flat vocal on Destiny Rules
Get rid of the jewelry box sound on Goodbye Baby
Get rid of Silver girl (period)!

I find it hard to believe anyone would rate this album as a fav FL album. Even without Chrisitne theres no reason this record should have sounded so joyless and flat. Theres a reason I'm still listening to my 3 yr old copy of TISL!!! Theres a reason TISL has sold just about as many copies as SYW.

CarneVaca

02-02-2004, 04:18 PM

Achally, I forgot all about Everybody Finds Out. I would put that in my earlier two-disc version as well.

Johnny, I see what you're saying about the 1950s-like sound of Lindsey's songs in Mirage. Somehow, to my ear it still fits. The instrumentation and effects from one song to the next seem fairly consistent. For instance, the vibraphone (or whatever it was) that Lindsey uses on Empire State and the cello-like guitar effects on Hold Me and the chimey guitar riffs on Gypsy somehow blend together at some cosmic level. Even the country flavor of That's Alright, with what sounds like is a banjo, fits. It all works somehow to create a sound.

In Tango, the sound is even more cohesive. When you refer to the darkness of Stevie's songs, I think that's more about message than the sound. From song to song, the sound is very consistent. I was referring to the production/engineering aspect.

Say You Will, though I like most of it very much, has uneven sound. At least to my ear.

markolas

02-02-2004, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by trackaghost
I must be weird because I like every single song on Say You Will including Silver Girl (and Red Rover for that matter).
I also consider it the band's best album since Tusk.
But that's just me. I wouldn't want them to change it at all.

That's how I feel, too.

I've heard people call SYW "self-indulgent" (I've heard them say that about Tusk, too...and practically all of Joni Mitchell's albums after Court and Spark...to me, most of her best stuff was after Court and Spark...maybe I'm "self-indulgent," too), and complain about Christine's absence, the fact that it's too long, and it doesn't sound like Rumours. All of those things are big pluses to me...so, I suppose I'm weird, too :D

Merf

02-02-2004, 08:57 PM

I think Say You Will is a magnificent album,but if I had to "trim" a few, mine would look like this:

What's the World Coming To?
Illume
Thrown Down
Miranda
Red Rover
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Come
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye

I eliminated Goodbye Baby, Running Through the Garden, Silver Girl, Bleed to Love Her, and Murrow (because I Had to get rid of another Lindsey song and that is my least fave of the ones left).
This track order would have never happened because it is uneven (Lindsey-7, Stevie-6) but oh well.

Cristian

02-02-2004, 09:27 PM

I wanted to copy Say You Will to a tape source so that I can listen to it in my very old walkman. So what I did was trim down my four least favorite tunes and re-arrange the track order. I ended up with quite an enjoyable selection.

I erased Lindsey's "Come" (live version kicks ass; studio version is... very irritant to my ears) and "Murrow" (just blah); and Stevie's "Illume" (good intentions, perhaps good lyrics, but I can't stand the singing) and "Silver Girl" (her worst Fleetwood Mac song in my opinion).

The tracklist is as follows:

Side A
1. Bleed To Love Her
2. Thrown Down
3. Peacekeeper
4. What's The World Coming To
5. Smile At You
6. Red Rover
7. Running Through The Garden

Side B
1. Destiny Rules
2. Miranda
3. Say You Will
4. Steal Your Heart Away
5. Everybody Finds Out
6. Goodbye Baby
7. Say Goodbye

And I found out that

I love "Bleed To Love Her" as an opener although I like the Dance version much better;
I like the way the two Lindsey "politic" songs ("Peacekeeper" and "What's The World") sound together; they sort of give eachother strength;
The abrupt ending of "Red Rover" flows in perfectly with the soft beginning of "Running Through The Garden";
"Destiny Rules" should have been earlier on the album;
I put the two 'Christine-like' tracks together ("Say You Will" and "Steal Your Heart Away") and it sounds great!
The ending sounds better if you swap the last two songs... but I guess that's very deabatable, too.

It was a fun exercise nonetheless.

Song of the moment - Book Of Miracles

blinker12

02-03-2004, 05:59 AM

Sometimes I don't understand my fellow fans. If you call these tunes "not belonging"on a FM-album and self-indulged
( somebody explain to me : what the h*ll is that!!!!), then what is the titletrack of Tango in the night doing there?

Fair enough question; "self-indulgent" is a vague term and I should have explained better what I meant. Of course ALL the following is just my opinion, but...
I think Stevie "indulges herself" mostly in her lyrics. Obscure third person references, personal anecdotes that don't mean anything to anyone else, etc. Prime example is "Silver Girl" (with its "papers she never signed" and so on).
Lindsey, meanwhile, indulges himself mostly through his production techniques and his guitar playing _ I resisted using the term "wankery" ;). I mean, the man is a god, don't get me wrong, but do all those fireworks on "Murrow" and "Come" really serve the songs? Live, sure. But not needed on record I'd say. Likewise, "Smile at You" is too souped-up for me, though I like the song itself.

One of the best traits of past Mac albums has been Stevie and Lindsey's ability to check each others' self-indulgence. IMO, that didn't happen so much on "Say You Will."

Let me just say for the record, though, that I'm grateful for the album and thoroughly enjoy most of it. :)

DownOnRodeo

02-03-2004, 07:02 AM

Christian! Even without listening to it, I can see that your tracklisting would work great! If I had to cut out four I guess this would be my SYW:

1. Murrow Turning Over in His Grave
2. Thrown Down
3. Peacekeeper
4. What's The World Coming To
5. Illume
6. Red Rover
7. Running Through The Garden
8. Destiny Rules
9. Miranda
10. Say You Will
11. Come
12. Everybody Finds Out
13. Goodbye Baby
14. Say Goodbye

Frankly this whole thread confirms my feelings that the recently touted future of digitally released single songs without physical albums is the way to go. That way the band releases a slew of songs that fall under the 'Say You Will' label, and the fans just buy the ones they want, or indeed all fo them, but choose the ones they want to turn into a CD. And you could purchase online a package to be mailed to you which has the CD packaging and a couple of blank CD-Rs with the CD art pre-printed onto them. Then we burn our custom CDs.

Anything's possible. :)

joe

02-03-2004, 09:40 AM

back in 1990 when Lindsey was already out of the band. Stevie and Christine announced in mid tour that they were leaving the band. For about six years after that, there was no FM anymore in my opinion, with no disrespect to the Time lineup. A friend of mine dragged me to a Time concert and i've never been more disappointed. It wasn't because the actual band was bad, but because the front people-Christine, Lindsey and Stevie-were gone and they were the main reason that i liked the band. Mick and John are one of the best rhythm sections, but i could care less about the rest of the band if there isn't at least one of the Rumours members present.

So, this brings me to my point....I, too, tend to get critical of them. And i have been critical of Say You Will. Yes, the album does lack a certain cohesiveness....I think maybe it is too long. I have certain songs that don't have the FM sound to me and i skip over them. But anyway, i now try to just appreciate each song individually of the others. I really don't listen to the whole cd all the way through anymore...i never really did. I tend to skip around and that works better for me.

There are certain groups of songs that work for me. In my opinion, i think songs like "Murrow", "Everybody Finds Out", and "Say Goodbye" really stand out. I think they are really strong and fresh tunes. I really don't know why they chose to omit the first two from their tour setlist.

Anyway, the songs to me that work best for this record in terms of the overall sound is....drum roll please....and this is the order that i think i would listen to it in:

Murrow
Thrown Down
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Miranda
Not Make Believe
What's the World Coming To
Steal Your Heart Away
Silver Girl
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye

Finally, it's not that i don't like the ones that i omitted, it's just that i would rather hear them on solo albums.

joe

02-03-2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by joe
There are certain groups of songs that work for me. In my opinion, i think songs like "Murrow", "Everybody Finds Out", and "Say Goodbye" really stand out. I think they are really strong and fresh tunes. I really don't know why they chose to omit the first two from their tour setlist.

Anyway, the songs to me that work best for this record in terms of the overall sound is....drum roll please....and this is the order that i think i would listen to it in:

Murrow
Thrown Down
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Miranda
Not Make Believe
What's the World Coming To
Steal Your Heart Away
Silver Girl
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye

I have to clarify something here after re-reading my post. I mentioned "Everybody Finds Out" as being a stand out track....However, i did not include it in my track list....This is because although i think it's a good song, i don't like thinking of it as a FM song, and therefore, being on the album. Same with some of the others i left off...This brings me back to my additional idea of liking the songs but not as though they were FM songs.

Am i making sense, or being redundant?

How about both? I'm making sense AND being redundant about it....

How about neither:
I'm NOT making sense AND i'm being redundant about it.

Maybe i'm just crazy today!

:laugh:

shackin'up

02-03-2004, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by blinker12
Fair enough question; "self-indulgent" is a vague term and I should have explained better what I meant. Of course ALL the following is just my opinion, but...
I think Stevie "indulges herself" mostly in her lyrics. Obscure third person references, personal anecdotes that don't mean anything to anyone else, etc. Prime example is "Silver Girl" (with its "papers she never signed" and so on).
Lindsey, meanwhile, indulges himself mostly through his production techniques and his guitar playing _ I resisted using the term "wankery" ;). I mean, the man is a god, don't get me wrong, but do all those fireworks on "Murrow" and "Come" really serve the songs? Live, sure. But not needed on record I'd say. Likewise, "Smile at You" is too souped-up for me, though I like the song itself.

One of the best traits of past Mac albums has been Stevie and Lindsey's ability to check each others' self-indulgence. IMO, that didn't happen so much on "Say You Will."

Let me just say for the record, though, that I'm grateful for the album and thoroughly enjoy most of it. :)

Okay, that's clear. But now I know that what you call selfindulgent I call quality and character. Oh, I don't like Silver Girl either, but not because of selfindulgent lyrics, it's just not that strong melody. Stevie usually does better.

gerald:wavey:

chiliD

02-03-2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by blinker12
...but do all those fireworks on "Murrow" and "Come" really serve the songs? Live, sure. But not needed on record I'd say.

Repectfully disagree. (only because I have to...otherwise I'd question your sanity! :laugh: )

Then Cream & Led Zeppelin never should've gone in the studio, by your logic, right? :shrug:

Manic guitar solos are what the foundation of Rock was made from. Take that away from "the record" and you have "EASY LISTENING".

shackin'up

02-03-2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by joe
Yes, the album does lack a certain cohesiveness....I think maybe it is too long.

It still puzzles me.
This album is too short!
Just a few weeks before release they had to cut 5 songs and put it all on one disc. The frickin' constructive idea behind this record, how it grew through time, was brutally ruined! And then we have the finishing of the record and the friction about the running order through telephone! So cohesiveness: I am sure that cut in two pieces and 5 songs added, there would have been more cohesiveness. And on a double-album, nobody would have talked about a record that was too long, I think.

So that's my critic towards the band: They did not fight against WB enough, like in the old Tusk-days. But then again, they had a somewhat stronger position back then....;)

gerald

cliffdweller

02-03-2004, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by chiliD
Ummm...

Behind The Mask
Time

You're being as myopic as the OFFICIAL site. Shame on you! :distress:

Yeah, but I never count those two. Ha! If it doesn't have both Buckingham and Nicks it gets little of my attention.

cliffdweller

02-03-2004, 03:24 PM

blinker12

02-03-2004, 10:57 PM

Then Cream & Led Zeppelin never should've gone in the studio, by your logic, right? Manic guitar solos are what the foundation of Rock was made from. Take that away from "the record" and you have "EASY LISTENING".

I see your point, but I guess as always this comes down to a matter of taste. I don't like the manic guitar stuff, though I recognize others do. That probably explains part of Mac's appeal... something for everyone.
But I would respectfully disagree, in turn, with your statement that rock's foundation is guitar solos. I'd say its foundation is simple, three-chord progressions and solid rhythm. All the other stuff (guitar solos, more interesting progressions) came along later in the game. But that's kinda beside the point. :)

By the way, and on a related topic, has anyone checked out allmusic.com's SYW review? They have "Silver Girl" checked as one of the album's four high points! Taste is a strange thing...

SteveMacD

02-03-2004, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by cliffdweller
Yeah, but I never count those two. Ha! If it doesn't have both Buckingham and Nicks it gets little of my attention.

Lindsey was on "Behind The Mask" (title track). Call me crazy, but I say it's all good.

chiliD

02-04-2004, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by blinker12
But I would respectfully disagree, in turn, with your statement that rock's foundation is guitar solos. I'd say its foundation is simple, three-chord progressions and solid rhythm. All the other stuff (guitar solos, more interesting progressions) came along later in the game. But that's kinda beside the point. :)

Ahhh...but I say "rock"...not "rock & roll"...two animals, similar "DNA". :)

Yes...yes..."Rock & Roll"...now there's your "three-chord progression and solid rhythm" (to quote Muddy Waters, "The Blues had a baby and they called it Rock & Roll").
Buddy Holly
Elvis
Eddie Cochrane
Carl Perkins
Chuck Berry, etc

..."ROCK" is fueled by high octane extended guitar pyrotechnics.
Led Zeppelin's "Rock & Roll", "The Song Remain's The Same", etc
Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Free Bird"
Cream's "Sunshine Of Your Love"...any of their live recordings
Black Sabbath "Paranoid"
The Who "My Generation", "Won't Get Fooled Again", etc

Johnny Stew

02-04-2004, 04:03 AM

Ahh, but over the course of Bob Welch's years in the band, and most especially once Lindsey & Stevie joined, Fleetwood Mac progessively became more of a pop-rock band, rather than simply rock or rock-and-roll.

Pop-rock is another beast all together! ;)

joe

02-04-2004, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by chiliD
Then Cream & Led Zeppelin never should've gone in the studio, by your logic, right? :shrug:

Manic guitar solos are what the foundation of Rock was made from. Take that away from "the record" and you have "EASY LISTENING".

what's kind of sad is that Cream and LZ are easy listening compared to some of the stuff that's out there now....The modern stuff makes the former look like Romper Room...and that's not necessarily a compliment. At least Cream and LZ had melody and style.

diamondsnake

02-04-2004, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by joe
what's kind of sad is that Cream and LZ are easy listening compared to some of the stuff that's out there now....The modern stuff makes the former look like Romper Room...and that's not necessarily a compliment. At least Cream and LZ had melody and style.

It is sad. Most people at my school refuse to believe FM is a rock and roll band, saying it is all just pop music. While they might be pop-rock or light rock, I would hardly classify them as just pop.

What would you guys say FM's genre is?

ShangriLaTroubl

02-05-2004, 12:38 PM

I think Fleetwood Mac fits perfectly into the pop-rock genre...I know a lot of people despise that term, but it works.

A lot of their stuff is pop, and mainstream...and then there are a few rock songs here and there... Even Rhiannon is soft rock (the album version anyway)

Chris

ShangriLaTroubl

02-05-2004, 12:41 PM

Say You Will for me is incredible... I do not like much about Tango, Time, or Behind the Mask... I mean I LIKE the albums, but they are on the bottom of the list for me. Mirage is a good album, except I do not like Lindsey's songs. I think with Say You Will Lindsey FINALLY discovered a way to be experimental, and "out there" with his songs while making them sound good and have good choruses at the same time...

Say You Will is different, but when I heard it the first time I was blown away. If this album had been all "Bleed to Love Her's" "Thrown Down" and "Say You Will" type songs, I would not have liked it as much....it represents the band in a way that shows people (who are willing to actually listen) that these are not burnt out rock stars with nothing left to say...they have something more to say..and I think it is an incredible album.

Chris